Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Young of Old Scone

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

Not for the first time I find myself entirely in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I therefore do not need to take a lot of time on my amendment in this group, which originates with Catherine Howard of Herbert Smith Freehills Kramer and her Project Nutcracker and is intended to address the problems caused by three legal cases—People Over Wind, Sweetman I and CG Fry—and provide a hook for statutory guidance aimed primarily at addressing the customs and practice of the statutory nature conservation bodies.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not know where to start on this one. I must admit that, if I had had the neck of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in my hands this morning after reading the Telegraph article, he would no longer be here to press his amendment tonight.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Young of Old Scone

Committee stage
Monday 15th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

The noble Baroness might not thank me when she hears what I am about to say. I signed up in support of this amendment without realising that we were talking in exactly opposite directions about what the desired effect should be. I believe this is a probing amendment. I was very pleased when the Minister, in her response to the previous group, said that she believed that it should be another public body. For the avoidance of doubt, we should have that in the Bill.

I do not see this as something we would want to do frequently. It would be useful to know the Minister’s thinking about why this provision is in the Bill. If Part 3 is about taking a strategic approach to landscape-scale conservation and nature restoration, it is important that there is some controlling mind organising all this. I do not think it can be the Minister; it has to be Natural England. If there is any delegation from Natural England to another public body, it should be at the behest of Natural England, not the Minister. It would be extremely useful to know why this is in the Bill in the first place and to get at least a requirement that another public body is designated. Perhaps the Minister will outline the circumstances envisaged in this amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, my amendments in this group are also of a probing nature, but I say first how much I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lady Coffey. I had the privilege of being the Whip in this House for the Minister of Agriculture in the last years of John Major’s Government, at a time when BSE was rampant and the Countess of Mar was active on the Back Benches. I know which I was more frightened of.

MAFF in those days was a shell of a department because almost all the powers and money ran through Europe. One of the problems of BSE was that MAFF could do nothing because it did not have the direct control to do anything. As my noble friend said, this would all work better if there was first-line democratic control of what was happening here, not by statute to Natural England but by a decision of the Secretary of State to Natural England, so that the ultimate decisions and accountability stayed with the department. That would make for a much healthier, more effective department.

On this business of delegation, Amendment 328A asks whether, if we are to designate organisations, it could be a national park. That is my question here: is it the Government’s intention and is there scope within law to make a national park a designated person under this clause? If I understand the way this clause is intended to work, that would be a sensible arrangement, and I would like to know whether it is possible.

I turn to Amendment 333A. I entirely understand what my noble friend is saying in her Amendment 333, and it is merely a convenient place to put my question. Should not the EDP delivery include a role for land managers as trusted partners? Look at the difficulties that Natural England has in making sure that its SSSIs are in good order. As a resident of Eastbourne, I live in the middle of a collection of SSSIs that are in very bad order; they are supposed to be chalk grassland but are actually knee-high brambles. There is real difficulty for an organisation such as Natural England to make so much happen on the ground. If it could have long-term relationships with trusted partners who are embedded in a particular bit of the countryside, it would be in a much better position to get things done.

Farmers are generally, although I know not universally, keen to deliver on local environmental priorities and to allocate 10% or so of their land for nature recovery, as long as legislation and policy allow this to be delivered profitably. Private sector organisations such as the Environmental Farmers Group—I declare an interest that my brother is one of its directors—have already developed catchment-scale environmental transition plans that dovetail with the proposed EDPs. Such existing delivery structures, alongside farm clusters and catchment partnerships, should not be ignored. We already have this sort of partnership structure with national nature reserves—Elmley and Holkham are the ones I think of, being a southerner, but there are doubtless others—that are really well run by private estates.

Clause 76(3) will provide Natural England with the power to pay others to deliver EDPs, but it is sparse on detail. It would be helpful to know the criteria to qualify for acting on behalf of Natural England and what opportunity organisations could have in the process of preparing and delivering an EDP. Clause 59 will require a consultation on a draft EDP, but that is very late in the process. Consequently, Amendment 274, which is in the next group, would require Natural England, during the preparation of an EDP, to ask for expressions of interest from persons or organisations who can demonstrate their suitability for delivering the EDP. That would assist Natural England in meeting its obligation, under Clause 57(2), to explain why its measures are appropriate and what alternatives have been considered.

In addition, proposed new paragraph (d) in Amendment 311 to Clause 71, which is rather later in our groupings, aims to encourage consideration of delivery by landowners and managers in the local area, given that this would lead to better outcomes for nature and the local area. Clause 86, which allows the Secretary of State to designate a person to replace Natural England in using the Bill’s powers, seems very wide-ranging, without limitations or clarity as to the nature of the designated person. Given that Natural England is committed to working with trusted partners in its strategy, it seems relevant to extend this relationship into legislation and to define the criteria for the appointment of trusted partners, which is currently lacking. The Corry review recommended that:

“Criteria would need to be developed to ensure that a consistent approach is taken for how autonomy is earned and then recognised and retained”.


Amendment 333A seeks to embed the role of trusted partners in EDP formation and delivery and to define the criteria for appointment. I fully understand that there may be other ways of doing it, but it is important that such trusted partners should be a core part of the strategy.