Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Very briefly, I found that a fascinating exposition and would happily discuss it further outside the Chamber with the noble Lord. The logical corollary of it is that it is therefore almost impossible to calculate what the levy should be, because you are dealing with unknowns into an 80-year period. But let us not discuss it now—let us move on.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree—let us not discuss it now.

Amendment 309A in my name may not be required, but I would like some reassurance from the Minister. As currently drafted, the Bill outlines Natural England’s role under the nature restoration levy in spending funds and in monitoring the implementation of the EDPs—monitoring, as it were, the inputs and actions that are needed under the EDPs. There is no explicit duty as far as I understand—but I would like clarification —to ensure that the plans result in real ecological improvements and outcomes on the ground. By that I mean not just whether the EDP has done was it said it would but whether it has delivered the goods as a result of those actions. My amendment would make sure that Natural England had to demonstrate that the outcomes planned were being delivered and the plan was working.

The only requirement I can find—I am sure the Minister will say that this is sufficient—is that the EDP reporting requirements that are laid on Natural England in Clause 62 already ensure that it will report on whether the conservation measures are having or have had their intended effect. It would be good to have confirmation that she believes this means that it has to report on outcomes.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I am supportive of my noble friend Lord Gascoigne’s amendments, and will speak also to those from my Front Bench.

There are a couple of factors in this. The Treasury hates ring-fencing, because, right now, it pretty much controls every penny that leaves the Government’s hands, whether it goes off to local government or similar. Other departments then want to try to control money that is coming out of existing government departments and how that should or should not be done, and so conventions start to happen within government. That frustrates, at times, the very purpose the levy is there for in the first place. There is precedence, as has already been said by my noble friend Lord Gascoigne, in CIL and the Act that brought that in.

There are other aspects. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, would make sure that this is additional money. It basically says that Natural England should not become self-financing and that every single penny raised should go to nature restoration.

Like my noble friend Lord Gascoigne, I was born in the county of Lancashire and I am very proud of that—don’t worry, I will not start singing the cricket song. There is something to be said, building on the principle of rectification at source, for trying to have that biodiversity as near as possible. Very occasionally, there have been infrastructure projects, such as the Channel Tunnel, for which it has simply not been possible to re-create the relevant habitat for certain displaced species, and it has had to go further away. It is a bit like what HS2 found: there is no point in planting trees at the wrong time of year, not watering them and then finding that—what a surprise—70% of them are dead. More money is spent on fixing the problem, instead of sorting it out in the first place. There is an element of co-ordination involved here, which I think Natural England is reasonably well-placed to do.

When we were setting up the BNG pilots, local developers sometimes could not do it, and there was then an opportunity to buy national credits. The department and Natural England were very keen for Natural England to be the only body to have this national pot, but I ensured that a few more bodies were available. It is important to have not necessarily competition but a variety of people who can provide this, as opposed to resource constraints becoming the great determining step or not helping progress. I come back to the Environment Act 2021 and its species abundance target for 2030.

There are other examples. It might be surprising to hear that the Treasury regularly holds back over a billion pounds from the collection of the apprenticeship levy, which it will often use to pay for various training here and there. Nature is too important. I thought it was no longer the Cinderella of the climate and nature environment, but I am afraid that it is back in that sad era. We need to ensure that it receives its fair dues, which is why I support the amendments in this group.

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[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, it is really important that we have private market solutions as a key way of delivering what we are trying to achieve. At risk of this becoming a Second Reading speech or of it being accused of that, I just want to go back a few years. The first green strategy did not mention nature at all. That was back in 2019. Then we produced the road map for sustainable investing. I managed to get in on the act when I was at DWP by talking about how pension funds should get involved in this; we had already introduced TCFD, and I hope we can get TNFD going.

Then there was the green finance strategy in 2023. It is not only for what we need to do in this country; it is the whole concept of private finance being a fundamental partner to making nature restoration real. Whether it is the GBF or the other aspects of international environmental treaties, the United Kingdom has repeatedly been at the forefront of making sure that private finance and markets are a fundamental way of achieving this.

The noble Lord, Lord Curry, is looking at me in disbelief. I am not sure if that is because I have misunderstood his amendments, or perhaps he is just surprised that I am so supportive. Nevertheless, the current Administration have also talked about the importance of private finance coming in.

There is a real fear that quite a lot is going on that will kill the private nature markets and reduce land being made available, such as for BNG—this is novel, which is why it is coming up again. I am really concerned in a variety of ways that if we end up with just a state-led solution, we will fail. The advantage of the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Curry, has tabled is to be very clear in this legislation that it must be considered and involved.

While I appreciate that we may get, dare I say, warm words, as with much previous environmental legislation, if it is in the Bill and becomes part of the Act, then the Government will do something about it. If it is not, they will not necessarily do it, and they may resort to then apologising, perhaps years later, when it has not quite worked out how they had hoped.

The market was growing. It is still nascent to some extent and has got moving, but it is now having a bit of cold feet, and we do not want it to be enveloped by the Himalayan balsam or anything else, such as the ground elder, which is the worst in Hampshire. Therefore, we need to make sure we get that market thriving and not declining.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I very rarely disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Curry, because he knows a lot, and I very rarely disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, because otherwise, he might poison my breakfast—but on this occasion, I feel I have to comment.

I understand entirely that the noble Lord, Lord Curry, is worried that the emerging, very valuable nature markets should not be eclipsed totally by the levy and Natural England’s role. However, some of the amendments in this group tip the balance too far the other way and say that nature markets must be the first port of call and not considered alongside all other potential organisations that can deliver the right solution for the right site for a particular EDP.

The existing nature market products are very valuable; some of them are less so. However, there are a shedload of organisations and groups that could deliver the requirements of an EDP for Natural England, such as some of the large charities, the ENGOs, farmers, groups of farmers, other landowners and the Forestry Commission. The role of Natural England must be to consider which of those organisations, or groups of them, should be the best way forward, including private nature markets but not giving a pre-eminent place to them and them preventing Natural England choosing perhaps the most effective partner, who would be someone who is local, onsite, available, already working in providing nature outcomes and could do more work to help with that EDP.

I would be particularly unkeen that we avoid Natural England being able to do it itself. On occasion, if there is work that can be delivered to take forward an EDP next to a national nature reserve that is already managed by Natural England, why should Natural England not simply do that by extension? It would be the most sensible proposition.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I would like to assure the Committee that I am looking forward to many convivial and toxin-free breakfasts with the noble Baroness, Lady Young, in the future—in case anybody was worried that I had, in some way, threatened her with anything else. That was far away from anything I would wish to do.

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[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, Amendments 339 and 345 are in my name; each provides critical innovations for the protection of nature and heritage trees in England.

The new clause proposed by Amendment 339 would introduce wild belt as a legal category in planning considerations and require the Secretary of State to establish protections within six months of the Bill’s passage. The purpose is clear: wild-belt designation would permanently safeguard nature-rich areas and their associated ecosystems, extending well beyond the traditional boundaries of green belts or isolated wildlife reserves.

The UK faces a biodiversity crisis, with only around 3% of England’s land effectively managed for nature, an insufficient figure compared with the country’s 30% by 2030 target for habitat restoration. Current planning policy has lacked a tool for protecting sites in recovery, or those being actively restored to higher ecological value. Amendment 339 would fill this legislative gap, empowering local planning authorities and strategic bodies with guidance for identifying, protecting and reporting on wild-belt sites, and promoting public access to nature-rich spaces.

Wild belt would operate alongside existing designations, such as green belt and sites of special scientific interest, creating new, joined-up areas that enhance ecosystem connectivity. Crucially, wild-belt designation encourages the restoration and protection of not only land but water bodies and wetlands, and I am delighted to be in the same group as the noble Baronesses, Lady Coffey and Lady Bennett, standing up for both ponds and trees. In the long term, it will help address habitat fragmentation, support climate resilience and benefit public health. Natural England estimates that green spaces such as wild belt can save the NHS approximately £2.1 billion annually, through improvements to mental and physical health—a testament to their broad social, as well as ecological, value.

The new clause proposed by Amendment 345 would establish heritage tree preservation orders, responding to a major gap in current tree preservation order law. Existing TPOs focus on amenity, but heritage trees—those of significant historic, ecological or cultural importance—require elevated protection and clear statutory recognition. I thank my noble friend Lady Tyler, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, for supporting this amendment.

The scale and significance of England’s heritage tree resource are striking. The Ancient Tree Inventory records over 233,000 ancient or veteran trees. Academic modelling suggests that there may be 1.7 million to 2.1 million across the country, indicating underreporting, and therefore associated risks. A single heritage oak tree can support roughly 2,300 species, so the harm or loss of such trees has outsized impacts on biodiversity. Amendment 345 gives planning authorities new powers to issue dedicated preservation orders and sets higher penalties for any damage. The shocking loss of the Sycamore Gap tree underlines the need for this—along with the Whitewebbs oak in Enfield, which has been mentioned by my noble friend Lady Tyler. It would also require advertising of heritage status and associated legal obligations, and develop partnership agreements for long-term management.

Crucially, Amendment 345 would create a statutory register for heritage trees, giving Natural England responsibility for identifying, publishing and maintaining the list. This would promote transparency, consistent protection nationwide and proactive stewardship, not reactive enforcement after harm has occurred. Owners and occupiers would be compelled to take reasonable care of heritage trees and would be liable for costs if the state must intervene, setting a clear expectation for shared custodianship.

This tiny amendment is like an acorn. If it could be planted in this Bill, it might grow into a mighty oak, spreading its branches throughout the nation, and protecting our heritage trees. I hope that the Minister agrees.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, on Amendment 345 on heritage trees, to which I put my name. This amendment echoes the key provisions of my heritage tree Private Member’s Bill, which, alas, ran out of road at the last ballot. It remains in my heart, and I shall continue to re-ballot it on every possible occasion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, has ably made the case that heritage trees are really important for history, culture and biodiversity, but they have remarkably little protection and are threatened by development, by deliberate damage—as with the Sycamore Gap tree—by inappropriate management or by sheer neglect and lack of management. The provisions of this amendment would bring protection to these important trees, and there is already the beginnings of a register, as proposed by the amendment, in the Ancient Tree Inventory. The Government have shown signs of interest in this in the past and asked the Tree Council to investigate and report on the issue. The Tree Council submitted its report in spring 2025, and concluded that trees of high social, cultural and environmental value are only indirectly protected, with significant legal gaps, and recommended the development of a “robust and effective system” to ensure that they are safeguarded. Other countries, such as Poland and Italy, have very effective protections.

Examples of socially, culturally and environmentally important trees lost in the last few years include the 300 year-old Hunningham oak near Leamington, which was felled to make way for infrastructure projects in 2020. There was a tree in Hackney called the Happy Man tree, which was the named tree of the year in 2020, but was felled in 2021 to make way for a housing development. There were 60 wonderful ancient lime trees in Wellingborough which were felled in favour of a dual carriageway in 2023. There are lots of examples of historic and culturally important trees, as well as their biodiversity significance, simply failing to be protected. I think that the outpouring of grief and rage that arose from the felling of the Sycamore Gap tree shows just how much the public value these trees, and, indeed, that was reflected in the sentencing.

I asked the Government in a Written Question on 17 July what progress they had made in implementing the recommendations of the Tree Council. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, replied:

“We are carefully considering expert recommendations laid out in the Tree Council and Forest Research report. It will be important”—


note the weasel words here—

“to balance our approach with existing priorities and our statutory obligations. We recognise the value of our most important trees and consider all ancient and veteran trees to be irreplaceable habitats”.

I ask just three questions of the Minister. First, am I right in summarising her response to my Written Question as, “Push off: they are irreplaceable habitats already. We aren’t going to do anything more to proceed with this report and protect them”? Secondly, if that is not the case, when and if will the Government come forward with an action plan following the Tree Council and Forest Research report? Thirdly, if they are not going to respond to the Tree Council report with an action plan, will she accept this amendment? I look forward to her response.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s Amendment 341, which refers to ponds. She was quite right to mention floods and drought. I would just like to follow up on that and remind your Lordships what happens with flood and drought. It is the loss of topsoil that is so damaging to farms. If one has ponds, one can collect the topsoil before it does further damage. It does further damage in two ways.

First, if you are near a chalk stream, you get silt going into the chalk stream, which is destroying the environment of the chalk stream. A chalk stream should not have silt in it. I remember speaking in the House last year, I think, about chalk streams and how a sudden thunderstorm had turned a chalk stream from being a crystal gin-clear stream, as it should have been, into a dirty brown river, and the damage that that was doing to the environment of the chalk stream.

Secondly, if the water catchment area goes into a reservoir, a huge amount of topsoil is filling up reservoirs. One might look at a reservoir once it is full of water and think, “Gosh, that’s a really big reservoir”, but one finds that actually a third of it is silted up from years of run-off from the adjoining land. Having ponds that stop that must be a good idea. They can easily be sited in areas of unproductive farmland.

I also notice the interpretation of a pond. My noble friend was absolutely right to mention that this should be permanent or seasonal. With the recent flooding we have had, there has been some terrible damage to farmland, sometimes where a pond would have stopped the damage. It would not be a permanent pond, it would be a seasonal pond, but it would help to reduce the damage to farmland from the run-off of the heavy rain. I hope that the Government will look at that amendment particularly carefully.

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Equally, one reason why Sir Michael Pitt argued that there should be an end to the automatic right to connect is that it should be for the water companies to decide whether there is a capacity in the water network to ensure that the connection is safe, is not a false connection and will not lead to greater flooding. These amendments are needed to protect the environment in the face of the housebuilding and other developments proposed under the Bill. I urge the Government to support them and I beg to move.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, very briefly, I support this amendment. If we pass legislation, it is important that we actually commence it. As the noble Baroness so ably presented, this is a real gap and it is has become even more imperative as we seek to up the level of development. I hope that the Minister will recognise the need and agree to press forward with bringing this schedule into operation.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Given that my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb signed this amendment, I just briefly reinforce what the noble Baronesses have already said. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, made the point about laws being passed and then nothing happening. That is a problem both for industry—in this case, developers—and for local councils, which are left in a state of uncertainty, not knowing where they are going with this. People start to prepare, read up and think about it. I should perhaps declare my position as a vice-president of the Local Government Association at this point.

There is also an issue of trust with the Government—something that we discuss often in your Lordships’ House. A classic example of this is the bottle deposit scheme that we are all still waiting for after it was announced so long ago. Many people out there still believe that, when a Government announce something, it will happen—it is already on the way. Probably more people believe that, once a law is passed, that will happen. When it does not happen, there is then a real problem with trust in the Government.

I can trace my knowledge about sustainable urban drainage schemes to 2006, when the first Green was elected to Islington Council. I can remember her talking excitedly about how crucial it was to deal with local flooding issues as well as environmental issues. I had not yet learned the phrase “slow the flow”, but that is of course very much what urban drainage is about. I also recall visiting, some years ago now, Cherry Hinton Brook near Cambridge—I bring up chalk streams again, just for one final time. I talked to local people concerned about a proposed development there, what was happening with the sustainable urban drainage scheme and how it would potentially be managed. What is crucial about Schedule 3 is that it provides a framework for construction but also for oversight of management because, very often, sustainable urban drainage schemes cannot just sit there; they have to be managed throughout their lifespan for many decades. If we do not have everything set out here—the required technical analysis, the inspections and the responsibilities —as it is in Schedule 3, then we will be stuck with schemes that have been built but are not being looked after.

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[Lord Lucas (Con)]

Not for the first time I find myself entirely in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I therefore do not need to take a lot of time on my amendment in this group, which originates with Catherine Howard of Herbert Smith Freehills Kramer and her Project Nutcracker and is intended to address the problems caused by three legal cases—People Over Wind, Sweetman I and CG Fry—and provide a hook for statutory guidance aimed primarily at addressing the customs and practice of the statutory nature conservation bodies.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not know where to start on this one. I must admit that, if I had had the neck of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in my hands this morning after reading the Telegraph article, he would no longer be here to press his amendment tonight.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that does not sound very comradely, if I may say so.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

I am definitely not feeling comradely right now.

We must get away from this polarisation. These amendments, jointly in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Ravensdale, are valuable and worth considering, particularly in the area of infra- structure. But they are complex, and they need calm and informed judgement and analysis before we go overboard for them. We will not stay calm, and we will not have orderly evidence-based judgement, if we get the sort of article that reports in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has been portraying it, in places—some of which he reflected this evening.

The ENGOs are not on an ego trip. They are not intrinsically against growth. The regulators are doing their best job with their resources against habitats regulations that were invented in order to stem this massive decline of biodiversity in this country, which threatens our existence. Every species extinction foreshadows our own. We have to get away from this belief that somehow everybody else in Europe implementing the habitats regulations is doing it with less purity, and is being far less up themselves— if noble Lords will pardon that unparliamentary language—than we are. The reality is that most places implementing the habitats directive are not trying to maintain and recover biodiversity in an area that is as densely populated and as much contested, in terms of land use, as this country is, particularly England. We have to bear that in mind: we are trying to cram an awful lot into a very small space of land, particularly in the south-east and around our coastal regions. So let us get off the polarisation argument.

The Telegraph piece is headed:

“Eco-zealots are crushing the economy”.


That does not foster good and sane debate. It says that

“the anti-growth environmental quangos are blocking developments on spurious grounds”

and that Natural England has an “anti-growth” mindset. I do not believe any of these points. It may well be that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has been quoted incorrectly, but from what he said tonight I do not believe that. It would be very unfortunate if we fell into the trap of polarising growth against development; we are smart enough to do both, and there is real commitment across conservation interests to do that. So let us stop winding up this debate in an irresponsible way.

I was going to go on to many of the other reasons for delay in the planning system but, at this time of the night, I will not. I will simply say that, when you talk to developers who are not on their soapboxes about the barriers they face, you find that the barriers are not solely environmental; there are many others. It is an example of the poverty of the noble Lord’s case and the way he is making it—not necessarily its basic tenet—that he quotes the old, hackneyed example of the HS2 bat tunnel. The problem with the HS2 bat tunnel was the problem of HS2, not the problem of nature conservation. If, as we had recommended 20 years ago, HS2 was called MS2, Medium Speed 2, it would have been possible to have mightily reduced the cost of the whole project by taking 20 miles an hour off the top speed and allowing the route to wiggle around all the things that we have now spent a fortune compensating for.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

If my noble friend would let me correct a point, I did not mention bats at all; I mentioned my experience of Hinkley Point C, which is very different.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

I apologise to the noble Lord for that, but the article in the Telegraph said that, on the night he was quoted, he talked about bats.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I was at a conference yesterday, and the Telegraph reported on it. The headline is not my authorship.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

I look forward to a detailed account from the noble Lord as to what exactly he did say that night and what in the Telegraph article he denies that he said. Anyway, if we had cut the speed of HS2, we would have avoided not only having bat tunnels but spending huge amounts of money on compensatory habitat for the destruction of ancient woodlands.

Let us not be unclear about this: Catherine Howard and her colleagues are very knowledgeable, but they are clearly representative of the development sector. Although their views are worth considering, they are not the only experts in this field. I do not believe that the extreme picture of the nature conservation bodies that is being represented is true. Nature is dramatically in decline and the habitats regulations were invented to meet that issue, so let us consider the approach in the amendments calmly and with a lack of polarisation. If we do not, we will simply continue to trade off nature in the interests of growth, when we should in fact deliver both.

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Moved by

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

351A: Clause 90, page 118, line 26, leave out paragraph (c)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, and another in the name of Baroness Young of Old Scone, would require the super-affirmative procedure for any regulations to amend to existing Acts or assimilated law under section 89(2).

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendments 351A and 351B. As currently drafted, Clause 89(2) gives the Government pretty sweeping powers to amend any other Acts of Parliament or assimilated law that they consider appropriate for the purposes of implementing Part 3.

Amending primary legislation is a big step, and I think it should require the highest level of consideration in your Lordships’ House, which is the super-affirmative resolution procedure. That would mean that a draft would need to be considered by each House and could be amended before it was formally laid for passing in the House. I hope the Minister can agree to this process, considering the sweeping nature of the powers that the Government are intending to take. I beg to move.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I strongly support what the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, said. In fact, it would be preferable for Clause 89(2) to be removed from the Bill.

My amendment is about the Secretary of State. I have not had the chance to identify in Hansard precisely where Ministers spoke to that the other day and this morning. I just think it is fair. I do not think the Minister in any way misspoke the other day.

I do not want to do a long constitutional lecture. I should point out that right now I am very keen to monitor this legislation, but I am also keen to see the rest of the second half of Liverpool beating Atlético Madrid 2-1, which is the score now.

Back to the topic: constitutionally, any Secretary of State can undertake the role of any other Secretary of State. This is where aspects of this come into play. I have extensive experience of having many legal cases against me and other Secretaries of State when I was in government. There were certain legal cases where the sponsoring department was conceived to be the decision-making power. All I am trying to do with this amendment is to make it crystal clear that Part 3 applies to the Secretary of State for Defra. The Minister mentioned earlier that it will be, except in certain circumstances or whatever. This just avoids any difficulty in that regard.

For what it is worth, my sense is that the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is yet again blocking the commencement of other legislation, which is frustrating. Nevertheless, this is something I am happy to discuss and come back to on Report. I feel particularly strongly about it and would like it to be transparent in the Bill. If people suggest that portfolios and names change, there are existing procedures in legislation which, in effect, make the changes automatically. In that regard, I hope to move my amendments on Report.

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[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her assurances about consequential or technical amendments being the only things that are envisaged by this provision, and that the super-affirmative process was more appropriate for important and complex changes. That is fine when government is in the hands of reasonable people, but, increasingly, we have to anticipate that a future Government might not be as reasonable. This provision, as currently drafted, would leave open a door for substantial changes to any primary legislation that could be remotely associated with the Bill. I am not seeing reds under the beds or whatever it is, but I hope the Minister might consider that we need to start thinking about proofing some of our legislation against lunacy. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 351A withdrawn.