Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I speak as a layman who has represented communities in which the whole family cannot go out for a night’s entertainment because someone has to stay in for fear of being burgled. Like many noble Lords, I know what it is like to be burgled. You feel terrible when your home has been broken into. What worries me about the provision in this amendment is that in some historical cases firearms have been used. If this amendment is passed, many people who do not want their house to be broken into again will take precautions. In the countryside, people have firearms certificates for vermin and for recreational shooting, and I know that there are some firearms certificates in the city I represented because I had to sign certificates to say that the holder was a good, decent person. With this amendment, some people will want the same protection as someone living in the countryside and will apply for a firearms certificate just in case. That is a worry. There is a big difference between someone living on a small farm having a firearm and someone living in a tenement where it is much more dangerous.

I know from my experience in another place that Ministers, some of them the holders of the highest offices in the land, indulge in sound bites. They say to the press, “People are entitled to protect their homes”. Of course they are entitled to protect their homes, but we cannot have a situation where we give a licence to someone who will decide that he is going to take a shot at a burglar and will say that it was proportionate or that he did not think about it at the time.

Part of this amendment relates to Armed Forces accommodation—barrack rooms. We are talking not about shotguns but about far more lethal firearms. A soldier could say, “I was defending myself, and that’s why I shot this intruder”. I speak as a layman. I have no experience of standing in a court and putting a case or of listening to a case, as some noble Lords have, but I think this amendment is bad news.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, this has been a very thoughtful debate, and people of great experience have put their views forward. I shall try again to explain where the Lord Chancellor is coming from and to reassure noble Lords on some of the points that have been made.

In bringing forward this amendment, the Lord Chancellor wants to clarify the situation and reassure the general public. Although the last contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Martin, was not in support of my proposal, it made the point that we are trying to deal with ordinary people dealing with situations in their lives. I understand lawyers making their points, but it is important that we see this from the public’s point of view. Although some recent cases have not led to prosecution and conviction, as I said, there may be cases in future which will benefit from the additional protection and clarification we are providing. Let me be very clear again, following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Martin, said, that this is not a vigilantes’ charter. In this country, there are still extremely strict rules about the possession and storage of guns which would still apply.

This is an attempt to recognise that people confronted by burglars, and acting in fear for their safety in the heat of the moment, cannot be expected to weigh up exactly how much force might be required. In these extreme circumstances, we think they should have greater legal protection. It is certainly not a licence to kill, whatever the circumstances. People will still be prosecuted if the use of force was unreasonable in the circumstances. The use of grossly disproportionate force will never be reasonable.

It will be for the courts to determine in each case what is disproportionate or grossly disproportionate. We want to make clear though that householders, who cannot always be expected to be thinking clearly if they are confronted by an intruder, will not be treated as criminals if they use a level of force which in the circumstances as they believed them to be is reasonable but turns out to have been disproportionate. We are clear that it is not open season for vicious attacks on anyone, even an intruder.

Let us also be clear, if somebody has been killed or seriously injured, an arrest may be necessary for the police to investigate thoroughly. A revised code of arrest for the police—PACE Code G—came into force on 12 November 2012 with new guidance on the circumstances in which an arrest may be necessary. The guidance also encourages the police to consider whether voluntary attendance at an interview might be a practicable alternative to a formal arrest. The changes we are making to the law will complement the improvements made to PACE Code G.

We are not changing the fundamental premise that a person can only use force that was reasonable in the circumstances as they believed them to be. The law on the use of force in other circumstances, for example, to defend oneself on the street, to prevent crime or to protect property will remain unchanged. We are trying to rebalance the law so that householders will not be thought of as criminals but, as I said at the beginning, quite properly as victims.

I am assured that we believe that the amendment is compatible with the ECHR and that we have recently published a memorandum in support of that view which I will put in the Library of the House.

Listening very carefully, I again pray in aid although I am not saying he is in support of this particular amendment, the Lord Chief Justice, who caught the mood behind the amendment at his press conference in September. He was reported as saying that,

“I am not talking about individual cases, but I know of cases, and I do read the newspapers occasionally”,

where,

“it looks as though the householder is the criminal”.

He then pointed out the circumstance of a householder facing a burglar.

“You are probably very cross and you are probably very frightened—a mixture of both—and your judgment of precisely what you should or should not do in the circumstances cannot, as another predecessor of mine (Lord Lane) said, you cannot measure it in a jeweller’s scale”.

The realisation that in such terrifying circumstances you cannot measure it in a jeweller’s scale led the Lord Chancellor to conclude that it would be better to clarify the law in a way which he believes will be more reassuring to the householder and give better guidance to the court.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

That is the noble Baroness’s opinion, but, again, she is suggesting words that I never used. I did not say a “political presence”. What I said was that, to me, the political veto was the intrusion into the process. It has been acknowledged by a number of contributors that if the Lord Chancellor is not in this narrow world where the decision and the selections are made, he will be the elephant in the room. This process gives the Lord Chancellor the chance to have an input in a selection but, as opposed to what the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, suggested, he will not have a veto. When the panel makes its decision, there will be no political veto. I should have thought that that would be welcomed by this Committee.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister about one point on which I would like clarification. It has been fascinating to listen to both sides of the argument. The Minister mentioned a lay chairman or chairwoman. From what walk of life would a lay chairman or chairwoman come?

[Lord McNally]

I shall have to take advice on that. I should have thought that he or she would come from the court of cardinals. I am not sure, but it would undoubtedly be a chairman or chairwoman of distinction and merit who had experience in these matters.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Tuesday 19th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord is upset about this interruption—

[Lord McNally]

You of all people.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

Yes, me of all people, but I am entitled to seek information. The noble and learned Lord mentioned the Freedom of Information Act and people seeking access through that Act. Is it the case that someone living abroad can make an application under the Freedom of Information Act to information officers over here, including those in Parliament? I hope that I have been brief enough for the noble and learned Lord.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made many very interesting points but, at the end, he said that it would be good if the House of Commons had another chance to look at this matter. If the amendment were carried, the other place would have a chance to look at this. I heard the Minister’s comments about financial privilege, but I do not share his point of view that if we put back the amendment we are being unfair to the House of Commons or to the traditions of this House.

I think of the situations that I had to face in my former constituency where there was a great deal of poverty. I heard many academics say that it was terrible that in the east end of Glasgow and in parts of the north end of Glasgow the life expectancy of people was such that you had a better chance of survival if you lived in Calcutta. It is all very well for an academic to say that, but people in areas of great poverty in my former constituency did not always get the benefits to which they were entitled. But if they go to the first line of appeal, it will be most unfair if they do not get legal aid. In the city of Glasgow, many lawyers recognise that people who have little or no income need the help of lawyers to articulate their cases.

We should not forget that when an appeal is made, often a recipient cannot speak up for themselves—perhaps because they are stroke victims—and cannot communicate, and therefore the carer has to worry about the benefits that they are losing. The carer has a 24-hour job. When someone says they are a carer it rolls off the tongue, but that carer can be up at three in the morning or may be denied the opportunity of a social life. They have to worry about going along to a tribunal on behalf of someone whom they love dearly and whom they are caring for seven days a week and it is a great relief to many of those people if they can get legal aid which will help them so much.

It used to be the case—I know it was a while ago—that if a working man or woman had to get the help of a solicitor, they had to go into the city centre but then lawyers realised that help was needed in the peripheral areas. Many legal companies operate in what used to be shops. They rent shops and now they are in the heart of very poor communities. It would be most unfortunate if people who need help, particularly carers, do not get assistance from those who are legally qualified and able to articulate a case for them.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, when the Government launched their consultative Green Paper on this legislation nearly two years ago and I made one of my first ministerial responses from this Dispatch Box, I made it clear that I was aware that we were making some tough and difficult decisions about legal aid. We have heard many times in many debates over the past 18 months that X, Y, or Z is attacking, undermining, or damaging the most vulnerable in our society. I have listened to those debates, but I remain convinced that what would have damaged the most vulnerable in our society more would have been if we had not taken the tough economic decisions necessary to put our economy right. It is no use noble Lords opposite shaking their heads. We were a lot poorer than we thought we were and every government department has had to make tough decisions. My own has had to take cuts of 23 per cent across the board over this spending review. That has meant tough decisions not only in terms of legal aid, but in staff numbers and in other aspects of the Ministry of Justice’s work.

We have never ducked the fact that we have made some hard decisions in this matter. Neither have we ducked the fact that our approach to cutting the legal aid budget meant taking the bulk of social welfare law out of scope. We had taken the decision to focus on civil legal aid. The term “relatively low priority” refers to our view that in terms of criminal legal aid we are talking about people’s liberty and reputation. It is an important part of our system that people should have legal aid in this area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

Of course it is deliberate. One of the things about that rather long opening speech is that it is the same speech that the noble Lord has been making for 18 months. I appreciate that he disagrees with our judgment on social welfare law, but we have never made any bones about the fact that that is where we took a tough decision. On criminal legal aid, I am quite sure that we will return to it, but the judgment we made was that since the previous Administration had made a series of quite significant cuts in criminal legal aid, we would allow them to bed in before returning to that matter. The fact is that the decisions have been tough, and we stand by the fact that tough decisions were required in the economic circumstances that we found ourselves in and also because successive Administrations have said that the legal aid system was in need of reform.

I do not know whether we have got the specific answers to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, about the balance in other common law countries. I have never used comparisons with continental legal things; I have always made the point that as far as Britain is concerned the comparison is with common law countries. Many months ago, on my return from the Commonwealth Law Conference in Sydney, I mentioned that the one message I brought back from Commonwealth countries with legal aid systems was their amazement at the generosity of the British system.

We are in a process in which we have had to take tough decisions. Some of the contributions today by the noble Lords, Lord Low and Lord Martin, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, almost made the case that the only practical help is legal advice. That is not something we accept. We think that in these cases there are other forms of advice that are just as valuable.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, that I had said that we cannot give offence to the House of Commons, I think that if he checks Hansard he will find that I have never been against this House giving offence to the House of Commons. Indeed, I quoted the Companion earlier:

“Criticism of proceedings in the House of Commons or of Commons Speaker’s rulings is out of order”.

However, the Companion goes on to state that,

“criticism may be made of the institutional structure of Parliament or the role and function of the House of Commons”.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I think that the Minister suggested that for this House to send the amendment back again was against the conventions of this House.

[Lord McNally]

It is not. I quoted from the Cunningham committee which held that opinion. There was a point when it was against the conventions of the House.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

That is an opinion of a committee; it is not a convention of this House. The opinion of a committee is just that: an opinion.

[Lord McNally]

Nobody is suggesting that if this House wants to send the amendment back, it is not entitled to do so. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Low, said about the importance of people’s Peers. He may know that it is my long-standing opinion that having a party-political label does not somehow lower one’s capacity to take views on legislation. Indeed, for many hours in this House the only people taking a detailed view of legislation are those on the party political Benches. I admit and acknowledge that recent appointments have brought valuable experience to this House.

Although my membership of the other place was brief, I remain at heart a House of Commons man in terms of where—

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I am sorry, but I am not going to take questions. We are hard-pressed for time. I have offered to re-engage, but as I said before, the evidence we asked for has not been forthcoming and I do not believe the argument that without this amendment, it is going to be catastrophic for these particular cases; that is, for those which people want to take through our law courts. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord has come to my aid, because I think these cases are still going on, and I had better say no more. Whenever I hear the Opposition on the wickedness of the press, I have to remind them that from those Benches more than a decade ago I proposed a minor amendment on press accountability, and was told from this Dispatch Box by the Labour Minister of the day that I was proposing the “slippery slope” to a state-controlled press. We know today what slippery slope we were actually on.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Martin, as I have explained in dealing with other amendments, that abolishing recoverability of success fees and insurance premiums from the losing side will rebalance the CFA regime to make it fairer for defendants by reducing the substantial additional costs which they have to pay under the current regime. Amendment 133 would retain the recovery of success fees from the losing side in all cases. I am not sure whether Amendment 133ZA was spoken to, so I shall not refer to it, but the noble Lord, Lord Martin, made it sound as though we were abolishing CFAs. I emphasise that CFAs will still be available to fund the same cases as they were under the original arrangements introduced by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern.

However, I understand the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Martin, about the press. I am not sure that they are best dealt with in this Bill. As the noble Lord will know, I hope that parliamentary time can be found to introduce a defamation Bill. It is in that Bill that we will look at the question of the balance of arms between the individual and large media interests. I hope that we can do that reasonably soon. In the light of that and what I have explained, I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I am very pleased that the noble Lord has said that he hopes to bring in a defamation Bill. That at least is something, because my worry is that there is a great imbalance. I will not detain the House any longer. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

No, of course the Government cannot do that. There was one thing that I was interested in. I do not know this because it is always dangerous to think aloud at the Dispatch Box, but on the powerful case for aid for charity I do not see why wealthy solicitors’ firms or wealthy solicitors could not make donations to that charity as long as there was no link with the search for work. It is worrying to have a charity that is dependent on making referral fees to certain solicitors. I am more comfortable with our banning referral fees.

In a way, the same applies to what has been said about trade unions. I fully accept the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Martin, about the services that trade unions offer working people in this country. My father worked for 47 years for ICI and was a lifetime member of the National Union of General and Municipal Workers. When I hear attacks on health and safety, I know the importance of health and safety in industry, but that should not be linked to a relationship with a professional service organisation.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I may have failed to declare an interest in that I am a member of Unite. It used to be the metalworkers’ union and then it became another union. When I looked today, it was still called Unite, but it might change its name tomorrow.

[Lord McNally]

It might. Some of them sound like coffee bars rather than trade unions these days, but perhaps that is part of the marketing. Certainly, the case of the trade unions was made very strongly by those who intervened. The service that trade unions provide their members no one gainsays—it is important—but we do not believe that that link between referrals and certain legal firms should be exempted from a general ban on referral fees. There must be those who have worked for trade unions who do not pay referral fees. I do not know. As a layman, I see referral fees as a distortion of the market, but there is nothing to stop trade unions having a good close working relationship with particular law firms. Some have had long-standing relationships. However, I cannot tell the House that we are willing to make an exception.

The noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Clinton-Davis, referred to the payments by solicitors to other solicitors for the transfer of prescribed legal business, and we believe that that argument is rational and sensible. If for any reason a solicitor decides that a piece of business needs to be transferred, perhaps for the geographical reason that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, gave or because the solicitor realises that it is beyond the competence of his or her firm, it would be perfectly reasonable to see a transfer. When the transfer is made, the solicitor concerned is able to claim an appropriate amount of money for the work dispersed before the transfer was made. We accept that logic. However the Government’s view is that reasonable payments of this type are not captured by the ban as long as they only cover the work undertaken by a firm in respect of the claim prior to it being transferred to a new firm. If there is a referral fee element to the payment, this would be subject to the referral fee prohibition and is a matter best dealt with by the regulator rather than by legislation.

Although I know that parts of this reply will disappoint noble Lords, we appreciate the widespread support for our ban on referral fees. We believe that this is the best way to lead our proposal to provide the most effective and proportionate way of preventing payment for personal injury claims and squeezing a bad practice out of the industry. We therefore invite noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, it is a long time since I pointed out that we had a whole series of amendments, each taking a different aspect of the Bill’s architecture, suggesting that on this case the Government should make an exception. Of course, had we conceded all afternoon, nothing would be left of the Government’s architecture. I listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has said and sometimes I feel that he is a little harsh on the legal profession. I cannot believe that lawyers would be so unwilling to take cases in the circumstances of what will be left in place after the Bill becomes law.

Let me make one personal point about mesothelioma. My sister Betty died of this disease. I do not need to hear the graphic descriptions that have been used in this House because I saw it with her. The family did not decide to take legal action, although undoubtedly she worked with asbestos two times in her life. Some 50 years ago she worked in an ICI plant. She also worked in what were then the asbestos-constructed Ministry of Pensions’ prefabs at Norcross. But the chance of providing proof in either case was very vague. Quite frankly, the family felt that no amount of litigation, proof or anything else would bring Betty back. She was dead. But that was a personal decision of the family.

Part of this debate turns on our industrial heritage and cleaning up the mess. Of course, I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said, and I see the noble Lord, Lord Monks. The Health and Safety at Work Act is about this issue and workers working in dangerous and dirty conditions. I was born on an ICI estate and I sometimes shudder at the thought of what went on as normal practice in chemical factories 40 to 50 years ago. Certainly, these cases are extremely difficult.

Before we put too much faith in lawyers, I was very proud to be involved in the Labour Government who gave the miners compensation. But, my God, was there not some abuse of that by the lawyers?

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I know that the hour is late. There might have been abuse from lawyers but there was no abuse from the victims.

[Lord McNally]

I never said that there was. But I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that I am quite sure that the insurance industry has been lobbying on this Bill. However, I can also tell him that the lawyers have not been too bad at lobbying either.

Community Legal Service (Funding) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have enjoyed listening to the experts in law and legal aid. It is deeply unfair that a 10 per cent cut should be put on one section, and one section alone, of a service that is paid for by the taxpayer.

The Law Society was here today to talk about the future legislation that will come before this House. I asked how much lawyers earn in the field of legal aid. I was told that young lawyers earn £25,000, as has been mentioned. They rightly deserve it, but there are many manual workers, tradesmen and semi-skilled people who earn that kind of money and work hard for it. However, we are making a 10 per cent cut.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said, many of those who work in the legal aid service are women. I know that there is not much sympathy for Members of Parliament at the moment but I met a former colleague, a lady Member, who said that a substantial part of her salary goes on childcare. There is no doubt that the cost of childcare has gone up. It has gone up for those young mothers who work as solicitors. Any of us who drive a car will know that prices are going up every time we go to a forecourt. Lawyers need to travel to get to court. They are not just based in London. Therefore, this cut is extremely unfair.

I am surprised by the Minister, who was at one time a member of a trade union. I do not know whether he still is; it would have been the T&G that he was in, would it not? I do not think that any organiser in the Transport and General Workers’ Union would want a cut of 10 per cent in the workforce, or take it lightly, so why should we do this?

In the constituency that I previously served and the place that I was raised in, a great many men and women who were asylum seekers came, as a result of a decision of the Home Office, to live in my community. More often than not, they came and received advice from legal aid practitioners. While those asylum seekers were coming to me, they were also going to the legal aid practitioners. I was able to form a good working relationship with those practitioners and found that they were doing things over and above their duties as solicitors—working outside office hours and going to people’s homes to try to help them. These practitioners are the people on whom we are going to impose cuts.

As the noble Lord said, cuts have to be made, but we have to look at how we implement them. It is the easiest thing in the world to say, “Right—10 per cent across the board”. However, it is not necessarily the right thing to do. I urge the Minister to reconsider this matter. At a time when many young people in this profession cannot even get mortgages, because that is difficult, they have to go into the rented sector, and their overheads are far more than they used to be. I can recall times when people did not have access to legal aid solicitors, and the difficulties and hardship that that caused for their families lasted for years. I hope that the Minister reconsiders this matter.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, this is the point in the evening when I thank everyone for contributing to a wide-ranging debate—so wide, in fact, that it would probably take me at least 40 minutes to reply. I will try to do justice to the debate in a shorter time because the House has more business to consider. I remind the House that this was supposed to be dinner hour business—a matter that the usual channels might look at in future when they do their planning.

The debate was indeed a trailer for the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill—now known to its friends as LASPO—that will come to this House. I do not object to colleagues using the opportunity to widen the debate to cover some of those areas. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said that it was a “tawdry harbinger” of a long hard winter for legal aid. I say to the House—to the right reverend Prelate, my noble friend Lord Newton, and others—that there would be a long hard winter if this Government did not face up to the spending cuts that are needed. It is all very well, as the noble Lord, Lord Martin, said, to say that this 10 per cent cut was the easy way. I put it to him that the easy way, which we have heard time and again tonight, would be to say, “Not this cut. Not that cut. We would do it in a different way”. We have had to face up to the fact that we have to make some hard decisions.

It is not just this part of legal aid that is taking the hit. The Ministry of Justice is a relatively small department with a budget, when we came into office, of £10 billion. We made a commitment for the spending review to cut that by £2 billion. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, knows, we have only four major areas of responsibility—prisons, the Probation Service, legal aid and court services. They have all taken their cut and it is simply not true to suggest that we have taken a particularly easy view in terms of legal aid. As my noble friend Lord Marks said—and, to be fair, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, echoed it—the previous Labour Government were looking at legal aid. I went to the Commonwealth Law Conference. I have never used the comparison with continental legal aid because I know that there is a different system there, but I particularly sought out the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand law officers to talk about legal aid and they confirmed what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, knows full well—they all consider our legal aid system to be, in their terms, “absurdly generous”. It is also untrue that we have not made comparable cuts in criminal legal aid. In fact, the parallel order will, over the period, save some £80 million in criminal legal aid spending.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, particularly mentioned Law For All. That is interesting because it very much echoes what was said when the Immigration Advisory Service closed. Let us be fair: Law For All has closed before any of these legal aid cuts have come in, so the legal aid cuts have not caused its collapse. However, it is interesting that the Legal Services Commission was able to make provision from other providers, and I shall return to that in a few minutes. We have recognised the problem relating to CABs and law centres, and I shall try to cover that in my main remarks.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, made an interesting point. I am proud to be the Minister responsible for promoting diversity in the legal profession. I put it to the noble Baroness that it is not a matter of diversity to suggest that women and black and ethnic minority lawyers should be corralled in one part of the legal profession. Indeed, my drive in terms of diversity—the noble Baroness is quite right and I have talked to both the Bar Council and the Law Society about this—is that the profession as a whole has a responsibility to promote diversity, not in the narrow area of legal aid but across the profession. To be fair, I think that they are responding to pressure in that area. We are taking diversity extremely seriously.

The noble Baroness and a number of other noble Lords also mentioned the Family Justice Review, which is a separate and independent programme of work looking at the entire family justice system. Our proposals are not dependent on the outcome of that review and are focused on legal aid; they go in the same direction as, and in support of, the aims of the Family Justice Review, which I am assured will be published very shortly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and a number of others talked about the fee levels reducing access to good-quality experts. The benchmark rates for experts have been applied by the Legal Services Commission for some time. The truth is that there are only limited anecdotal reports of problems with access to experts.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, accused us of weasel words in the Explanatory Memorandum, and I hope that my opening remarks have removed those weasel words. Of course, much of this has been driven by the need for cuts in public expenditure, but we have tried to do so in a way that focuses legal aid on the most needy.

We go back to the issue of the level of spending. What is so sacrosanct about £2.2 billion? It certainly was not sacrosanct for the previous Labour Government because they were planning to cut it anyway. The system is not being dismantled. It does not help when the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, makes that kind of comment. I could make a point about the earnings of barristers in family legal aid work, but let us not go down that route.

Industrial Tribunals: Fees

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the Government announced the introduction of fees into the employment tribunals and the employment appeal tribunals in the Resolving Workplace Disputes consultation published in January 2011. The consultation I have mentioned today will seek views on the fee levels, charging points and so on.

On the points that the noble Lord made, this is the whole reason for this second stage of consultation. Small businesses gave evidence about the burdens of what they describe as vexatious claims brought to them. I am sure that others will give evidence to the contrary. That is the point of consultation.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I can recall the days when there were no industrial tribunals. Decent men and women were sacked and could not take any legal action. Are we now introducing a blocking mechanism—that is, fees—for industrial tribunals when the industrial tribunal system has been excellent in resolving disputes?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, there is no aim to go back to what the noble Lord, Lord Martin, could rightly describe as the “bad old days”. The industrial tribunals system will remain and people will still have access to it. We expect that the tribunals will have the power to order that unsuccessful parties reimburse the fee paid by the successful party so that costs are ultimately borne by the party which causes the system to be used. There is nothing in the system that does not say that a small proportion of the costs cannot be charged. We do not believe that that would fundamentally undermine the very good work that the tribunal system does.

Freedom of Information (Designation as Public Authorities) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Monday 17th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally]

I do apologise. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, raised that and I found the answer, which is twofold. Of the three, it was UCAS which raised some concerns when discussions began. Its concerns were the costs it would face in complying with the FOI Act, how it would protect sensitive information, and other costs outlined in the impact assessment. During consultation it was satisfied that the FOI Act exemptions could protect this information, and since those consultations it has been happy to see itself included within the ambit of the Act. I apologise that I got carried away with the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Martin. Does he have another?

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

If the Minister is getting carried away, I will perhaps push my luck. I noted that the Minister stated in his reply that he would encourage these organisations to put the information out to the applicant and the general public almost simultaneously. Encourage is not quite the word I was looking for. There should be a commitment to do this. For example, if an applicant asked a police authority for a piece of information then it could, by all means, give that information out at 2 pm on a specific day, but by 2.01 pm the rest of the world should know about it.

[Lord McNally]

So far as I understand at the moment, what we can do is urge best practice by the wide range of bodies that deal with a very wide range of requests. I recently went to Northampton to congratulate the local authority on setting standards for devolving freedom of information which we thought were best practice. It is very difficult to have a single diktat for such a wide range of bodies, but the Justice Committee, when it does its post-legislative scrutiny, can perhaps look at this, and consider whether the Act should be given more teeth to have a one-size-fits-all approach.

There would be counterarguments that small bodies have more difficulty in managing freedom of information. However, the point that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, is pressing is very valid. Except in matters of national security, or if there are specific matters that argue against immediate publication, freedom of information is not in the ownership of the requester but in the ownership of the public at large. Freedom of information is the right to know of the public at large. I also take the point—if it is not already doing so I urge the Justice Committee to look at this—that it seems a bit rum for someone to be in favour of freedom of information but want anonymity when asking for it. I would be very interested to see what is considered best practice here. I would have thought there was considerable argument to say that if somebody asks for freedom of information they should not be worried that somebody else knows they have asked for it. That is another matter which will be given thorough consideration. In the mean time, I commend this order.

Social Mobility Strategy

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, for pointing out that I cannot make detailed announcements today. There may be two reasons for that, one of which is the purdah that she mentioned. The danger of this being motherhood and apple pie is always there. This has been a long, intractable problem in our society. Somewhere in my brief there are details of the fact that, even in a time of high unemployment, we still have skills shortages. The mismatch between need and opportunity continues to be there. There is a real determination in the Statement, and in the intentions of the Government’s strategy, to make sure that such resources as are available—I will not go through the mantra about the decrease in resources available to the Government—are genuinely targeted at those in need. If one can comment on the last Government, no one could deny that they put vast amounts of money into some of these problems. One of the questions that we must now ask in politics in general is why, with the resources that they undoubtedly put into areas such as education, social mobility remained so stubbornly difficult to move.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, while welcoming what has been said on apprentices, may I ask for assurance that any apprentice who is given an apprenticeship gets both the practical on the factory or shop floor and the theory in the vocational colleges? Also, will the House authorities ensure, given the fine craftsmen here, including chefs in the kitchens, that we have a full capacity of apprentices in the Palace of Westminster?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, on the last question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, I will certainly take that excellent suggestion to the House authorities. If we are going to lead by example as far as the Civil Service is concerned, as my right honourable friend said, we should also do so in the Palace of Westminster. As the noble Lord said, we see excellent craftsmanship at work in many parts of this building. To enable young men and women to obtain skills here would be a good example.

I also agree with the noble Lord on his first question. I always thought that the fall-off in apprenticeships in the 1980s was a waste and that we have had to make a great effort to catch up. It was a loss of real skills. The old apprenticeship scheme was a very valuable part of the skills base in our society. We are only just beginning to put that back. I agree with the noble Lord that there must be both on-the-job training and the use of the full benefits of further education. Another part of the strategy is that the study of an apprenticeship should have, where it merits it, academic recognition to allow somebody to go on into higher education. This is something that we are going to press with the authorities.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Martin of Springburn and Lord McNally

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

All that I am repeating is the cold fact that 36 per cent of the vote delivered Labour an overall majority of 66. That is the only point I am making. As for the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Nye, we have had this debate before. First, 93 per cent on a register is not a bad outcome. Anybody—and by God, I can see so many ex-party apparatchiks around this place and I am one as well, so—

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

In the 30 years that I was in the other House, there was a time when all I had to look up where my constituents were was one register which was renewed every year. Now in recent years, in fairness, every month a new register came in with additional names going in and names coming off. That was surely better than the register that was only updated once per annum.

[Lord McNally]

Of course it was. I remember at Transport House the calculations of whether Harold should go in March when there was a new register or in October when it got old. Again, that has nothing to do with the Bill. As for the noble Lord, Lord Wills, I can see that the previous Labour Government, rather late in the day, brought in reforms. We intend to carry through some of those reforms to keep the register up to date but, again, it really is not central to the Bill.

On the question of the 600, if your Lordships would let me have a go and not try to work it out as if they were going to have constituents—I have not asked on this so it is just me working it out—if you are going to have constituencies of around about 75,000 with our electorate, I suspect that that comes to somewhere around 600. Perhaps one of your Lordships will get your slide rules out and tell me whether that is true. But what, in God’s name, was so important about 650, 640 or any of the other numbers? It is an obsession and, quite frankly, with the theories of the noble Lord, Lord Bach—