BBC: Government Support

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, for securing and for opening this enjoyable and important debate. There are many in your Lordships’ House who have experience of the BBC—either because they or members of their family have worked there. There is no one who can hold a candle to the noble Lord’s wealth and breadth of experience at the corporation. As he said, that began 60 years ago this year when he joined as a graduate trainee. I can only agree with the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, that that was a very good hire indeed on the part of the BBC.

I also join those noble Lords who welcomed the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool and congratulated him on his excellent maiden speech. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, when she said that the BBC’s loss is a gain for the Church of England and for your Lordships’ House. I was struck by what the right reverend Prelate said about the need for calm scrutiny and careful consideration of not just what we say but how we say it. This is an important lesson for this place as well as for public discourse in many arenas.

The BBC is a great national institution of which we should all be proud. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has said, the BBC is a “beacon” for news reporting and the arts around the globe. It is a first-rate broadcaster, a cultural cornerstone and a producer of some of the best television and radio in the world. It holds a unique place in our cultural heritage. In its near 100-year existence so far, it has contributed enormously to the British sense of self, as it has both evolved and endured during the last century.

Beyond our shores, the BBC carries British values and identities to a worldwide audience which has more than doubled in the last decade, and reaches hundreds of millions of people every day. The BBC is the single biggest investor in original British content, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, noted. In 2019 alone, the corporation spent more than £1.4 billion on original UK television content. Some 54% of its commissions went to independent productions, of which 57% were from outside London. The BBC’s focus on British TV production also attracts investment from others. In 2019, more than £1.2 billion of third-party production spend was directly attributable to the BBC’s grass-roots investments. As noble Lords have pointed out, it acts as a catalyst.

The BBC’s UK-wide investments are reflected in its output. As noble Lords have rightly said, this has been a lifeline for many people during the pandemic—whether through the trusted information highlighted by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, or through Bitesize, which helped those who were home-schooling, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, mentioned. The invented escapism of new programmes, such as Michael Sheen’s and David Tennant’s “Staged” brought a smile to many faces of people stuck at home.

As my noble friend Lord Vaizey of Didcot said, we all have our preferences and partialities about the BBC. Perhaps we even have our rituals. I wake up to the “Today” programme every morning. I fall asleep to “Today in Parliament”—not, I hasten to add because of the content of the speeches therein.

The BBC is a leader in British programming. Despite increasing competition in the entertainment sector, it is a conduit through which outstanding homegrown talent arrives on our screens, in our speakers and, increasingly, on our smartphones. The BBC’s approach to funding talent will be crucial to our creative industries and the many world-class creative professionals working within them, as the sector recovers from the effects of the pandemic and continues to grow at a brilliant speed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, noted. The Government also welcome the BBC’s pledge to move two-thirds of its staff outside London. This will ensure even more diverse programming and create a BBC that better represents every Briton.

The BBC’s reach and influence extend far beyond our shores. This debate rightly has a global focus too. The BBC World Service is the world’s largest international broadcaster. It provides accurate and impartial news, analysis and discussion in more than 40 languages. The BBC recently confirmed that the World Service audience is now 364 million people—its highest ever global figure. In an era of fake news and viral misinformation, the value of a free press has never been so important. The BBC World Service is, therefore, an essential vehicle for information across the world. Founded in the early 1930s, it continues to be just as relevant today—perhaps increasingly so.

Following government investment of £291 million, the BBC World Service has expanded and enhanced its services as part of the World 2020 programme. Today, it broadcasts in dozens of languages—from Indonesian to Igbo and from Punjabi to Portuguese. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, stressed the importance of the BBC’s Russian output. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, rightly spoke of the bravery of the staff of the World Service in their work. Its comprehensiveness and inclusivity are unparalleled.

A number of noble Lords asked about the funding of the World Service. The framework agreement guarantees that the budget for the World Service must be at least £254 million until April 2022. The Government are engaging with the BBC on the future of World Service funding as part of the discussions about the licence fee settlement. While details of the grant-in-aid settlement are still to be finalised, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office is also committed to providing grant-in-aid funding for the BBC World Service through to 2025.

The Government support the BBC’s mission to bring high-quality and impartial news to international audiences. It is a crucial asset to Britain’s soft power and influence across the world, and its reporting is a precious resource to many who view it. The Government also support the BBC’s continued focus on global commercial opportunities, of which noble Lords spoke, working in conjunction with ITV and other partners. By continuing that work, the BBC is increasingly able to export great British content and values around the globe.

However, the Government have been clear that there are areas where the BBC can and should improve. It is perhaps pertinent that the BBC is still often known affectionately as “Auntie”, and, like all families, people can speak with both love and frustration about the corporation, with sincere thoughts about how it can improve and continue to flourish. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who says that we have almost a duty to criticise. I hope that we can do that, in the spirit of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, in a calmly critical way and provide the calm scrutiny which is needed.

The BBC knows this too. The Dyson report and subsequent Serota review identified that significant changes should be made in order to provide assurance to Parliament and the public, and restore the BBC’s reputation. While much has changed since Martin Bashir’s interview with the late Diana, Princess of Wales, there is still scope for improvements to be made. The Serota review’s recommendations include an overhaul of the BBC’s approach to impartiality and transparency, and tackling what staff have called a “culture of defensiveness”.

The review also identified the risks of groupthink at the BBC, something that a number of noble Lords alighted on today. Like all big and long-established institutions, there is a risk, as with so many others, of succumbing to a “we know best” attitude that can be detached both from the criticism and the values of all parts of the nation that it serves. The BBC must continue to commit to improving diversity of opinion and perspectives at all levels in defending the pluralism of which my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere spoke. The BBC should also enhance opportunities for underrepresented groups of people, particularly those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, to access and enjoy and have careers at the BBC. It is right that the BBC reflects all communities across the UK, both on and off the screen.

The Government support the BBC. We want to see it rectify the institutional failings that led to the events in the Dyson report. A renewed focus on editorial standards, impartiality and accountability is essential in rebuilding trust. In that context, we welcome the BBC’s 10-point Impartiality and Editorial Standards action plan, and the commitment to implement the recommendations of the Serota review in full. But the proof, as ever, will be in the pudding. As Ofcom outlined in its annual report on the BBC last week, while the action plan is a good start, it needs to be delivered. The BBC must move forward with its plan as quickly as possible and should do so with appropriate transparency. This is necessary to show to the public the BBC’s real commitment to reform.

The Government also agree with findings in Ofcom’s recent report that the BBC

“must keep evolving to be relevant to all audiences”.

That is not a partisan point. Indeed, it was clearly articulated earlier in the week by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, who cannot take part in our debate today. I would not presume to paraphrase the noble Lord, who speaks with great care and consideration, but I will quote from the article that he wrote. He explained that he would be unable to be part in this debate as he is chairing another meeting, but that

“if I could, I’d be loud in my praises of the Corporation. But I’d also have some stern criticism. Radio 4 has become so determined to address multicultural diversity, gender issues and identity politics that it forgets about all-embracing inclusion. People who live outside a narrow class of well-off professionals with rigidly right-on opinions, almost all of them in London, no longer feel included by the station.”

While not everyone will agree with every word of what the noble Lord said, it is clear that there are groups across the country who do not feel represented by the BBC, and it needs to do better in engaging those audiences across the UK, so that criticism like that can be met and need not be levelled.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, about the soft but important power of programmes such as “Strictly Come Dancing” in telling stories and increasing the representation of gay and deaf people, for instance. But there are so many other stories that need to be told too—points made by my noble friend Lord Lilley, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in his well-made point about elite-level sport and the diversity that we need there.

On that point, and the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, on listed events for sporting endeavours, we are considering the proposals made by Ofcom on the listed events framework but, at this stage, think that the current regime strikes an appropriate balance in ensuring that significant sporting events are available to as wide an audience as possible, with the ability of sporting organisations to generate revenues to invest in their sports. But we will of course continue to keep that issue under review, with the Olympics and other big sporting events coming up.

The Government will shortly begin work on the mid- term charter review, which will examine the governance and regulation of the corporation. This will consider whether the current arrangements are working effectively or if further reform is required. We have also committed to examining the licence fee funding model ahead of the next charter review. The noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, knows the answer to that question: work on this will begin well in advance of the end of the current charter period.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, raised the question of gender equality at the BBC. I do not know whether other noble Lords enjoy watching former general election night programmes as much as I do or have seen the broadcast of the 1970 general election, when my noble friend Lady Fookes was first elected to another place. It went viral, as is said nowadays, when her interview with Sir Robin Day, moments after her election to the House of Commons, was replayed. The way he spoke to her as a new female Member of Parliament was shocking to modern ears, and deserves to be. I am glad to say that much progress has been made in the intervening years.

As a public service broadcaster funded by licence fee payers, the BBC has a responsibility to set an example for others and lead the way in promoting equality in the workplace. The Government are disappointed to learn that the median gender pay gap at BBC Studios actually increased to 11.2% from 9% in the previous financial year. It is for the BBC to determine how to close its gender pay gap, and we expect to see improvement in next year’s disclosure. As in so many areas of national life, transparency is vital in this area, and the BBC’s pay disclosure shows that it still has work to do. It is vital that we continue to see these figures in future years, so that licence fee payers can monitor progress.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Vaizey, rather than my noble friend Lord Hannan, on the importance of local radio stations and local BBC work. Local and regional news coverage provide a vital service, providing information about local public affairs, holding local decision-makers to account and providing a forum for community decisions, as well as important information in relation to floods, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle pointed out, or storms, such as Storm Arwen, which we discussed before this debate.

The Government ensured that, in its royal charter, the BBC has a duty to consider its market impact and to ensure that it seeks to avoid adverse impacts on competition. The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, also pointed to the welcome and important work of the Local Democracy Reporting Service. Under the new regulatory system introduced by the Government in 2017, the BBC board must ensure that the BBC complies with its charter duties. Ofcom was established as the BBC regulator to ensure that the BBC is robustly held to account.

The BBC is a beacon for reporting and the arts around the world. It provides distinctive British programming, supports our creative industries at a domestic level, and delivers quality output and news on an international scale. It is a priceless national institution of which we should all be proud, and we are. It is because the Government support the BBC that we are focused on encouraging it to improve and reform. We want the BBC to continue to succeed, to meet the challenges of a fast-changing media environment and to continue the mission set by the late Lord Reith to inform, educate and entertain for many more generations to come.

Network and Information Systems (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Network and Information Systems (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2021.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid in draft before the House on 26 October. They will make important rectifications to the UK’s network and information systems legislation, which helps maintain the security of key digital services on which British people and businesses rely. Their purpose is to ensure that the Information Commissioner’s Office, in its role as competent authority for digital service providers, is kept informed of serious cyber events that affect digital service providers, comprising online marketplaces, online search engines and cloud computing services.

Before I turn to the provisions set out in this instrument, I will set the scene for the proposals it contains. The Network and Information Systems Regulations implemented the European Union’s security of network and information systems directive of 2016. As a result of our departure from the European Union, certain deficiencies have arisen in the relevant legislation retained under the provision of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which this instrument seeks to rectify.

The purpose of the Network and Information Systems Regulations, or NIS regulations for short, is to improve and maintain the security and resilience of essential services, such as transport or energy, within the UK, as well as certain digital service providers. The NIS regulations work by compelling operators of essential services and digital service providers to undertake measures to protect the network and information systems on which their essential or digital services rely from failure through either cyberattack or physical faults.

The NIS regulations are overseen by 12 competent authorities, which act as regulators for essential and digital services across six sectors. Organisations in scope of the NIS regulations must fulfil certain duties, such as having appropriate measures to protect their services and, critically, reporting cybersecurity incidents that have a substantial impact on their services to their competent authority.

Digital service providers, which form one of these six sectors, are regulated by the Information Commissioner, who acts as the competent authority. In other sectors, the factors and incident reporting thresholds, which determine what constitutes a “substantial impact” for the purposes of reporting, are set out in guidance published by the relevant competent authority.

Under the original EU directive and the UK’s subsequent implementation, digital services are treated differently from essential services. They were regulated at an EU level, with one country taking responsibility for the activities of an individual digital service provider across the whole of the European Union. For this reason, the factors to be taken into account when determining whether an incident had a substantial impact for the purpose of reporting were not left to member states but set out in the Commission’s implementing regulation, which applied across the EU market. When an incident reaches this threshold, it must be reported to the relevant competent authority, which regulates that provider on behalf of the European Union.

When the UK left the EU, the Commission implementing regulation remained embedded in UK law by virtue of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. However, the parameters and thresholds for reporting incidents set by that Commission regulation are no longer appropriate for the UK as an independent state. The most significant issue relating to reporting thresholds is that they were set by reference to the number of users affected or user hours lost. As these had been set with the EU market in mind, they were set at a level that is too high for the smaller UK market. As a result, the Information Commissioner has received only one report of a cyber incident affecting digital service providers since our departure from the European Union.

Under the current scenario, an incident needs to have a noticeable impact on an economy the size of the EU to be reportable in the UK. If the Information Commissioner is not receiving reports of incidents within the UK because the thresholds are too high, they will not have an accurate picture of what is happening in their sector. They will be unable to identify the threat, provide guidance or take necessary enforcement action if the provider is found to have breached its duties to protect its services. It is important, if the legislation is to remain effective, that the Information Commissioner is afforded the ability to set the reporting thresholds at a level appropriate for the UK.

I will now set out in a little more detail how the instrument before us seeks to resolve this deficiency. The key proposed amendment will remove the defective reporting thresholds from the UK version of the Commission implementing regulation. The NIS regulations already allow the Information Commissioner to issue guidance and the Information Commissioner has already carried out a consultation on these thresholds in parallel to the instrument being developed.

The instrument before the Committee strengthens the role of that guidance by adding a provision to the NIS regulations ensuring that digital service providers have regard to that guidance when considering whether an incident has substantial impact and is therefore reportable. The practice of setting these reporting thresholds in guidance is common among all other NIS competent authorities in the country; it is only by virtue of how digital services were supervised across the EU that their reporting requirements were set by an EU regulation.

The approach of using guidance to set the thresholds affords far greater agility to the regulator, allowing the Information Commissioner to respond to new developments and to set levels that are proportionate and not burdensome on the providers or, indeed, her own office. This amendment would bring digital service providers in line with operators of essential services in all other sectors across the NIS framework, ensuring that regulators are able to identify significant incidents affecting key services across the economy and act accordingly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords—well, my Lord—the Minister will be pleased to know that I do not have a lot that I want to say. As I understand it, this SI makes a couple of small changes, as the Minister has said, to retained EU law regulating the security of network and information systems of core UK service providers to reflect that fact that we are no longer part of the pan-EU regulatory regime.

I have just one or two questions. Why, given that the transition period ended almost a year ago, are we debating these changes only at the end of November 2021? While this may not have been day-one critical, one would have hoped that these kinds of cybersecurity issues would have been a priority for the DCMS.

The Government are lowering the reporting thresholds when relevant cyber incidents occur in an attempt to ensure that the Information Commissioner is sighted on them. Can the Minister confirm whether DCMS knows of any incidents occurring earlier in the year that did not meet the current threshold that would have met the revised one had it been in place?

When we discussed amendments to EU-derived regulations for video-on-demand providers in the past, the department conceded that our departure from the EU meant that we had no formal jurisdiction over most of the main players, which were generally registered on the continent. Is there a similar situation with some of the digital service providers or is this not a concern currently?

The Explanatory Memorandum, which I found very clear and helpful, shows that most of the costs associated with the change will fall on the Information Commissioner’s Office. Our understanding is that the Information Commissioner is working well as a regulator, but of course with expanded responsibilities comes the need for greater resourcing. Is DCMS comfortable that the commissioner has enough staff and wider resource to complete these duties?

I turn to my final point. Is alignment with EU practices an issue at all, and do we have a continuing relationship with the EU regulator and regulation? Do we have to work within a commonly accepted framework, even though we are now outside the EU and obviously have to have our own system for regulation, appropriate to the size of our market?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his questions and helpful comments on the impact assessment. He asked why we are doing this now and not sooner. The issue that I outlined at the beginning was not identified as a deficiency until last year, when the Information Commissioner raised concerns over incident thresholds with DCMS—that is why we have brought forward the statutory instrument at her recommendation and in consultation with the ICO.

The noble Lord asked about the ICO’s resources. We are confident that it has the resources, but we will maintain close dialogue with her to keep that under review. We have a continuing relationship with the EU. The matters here obviously cross international boundaries and, despite leaving the European Union, we continue to work with our European neighbours and other international partners on issues such as this. But obviously we have no obligation to implement the new directive that the EU is bringing forward. We are monitoring developments in the EU to assess any impacts that those changes might have.

I am afraid I missed the noble Lord’s second question, but the note I have been handed reminds me that it was on digital service providers. There is now a requirement for non-UK digital service providers to register with the Information Commissioner. As I say, there will be a divergence from EU regulations, but we will continue to follow a similar approach. I hope that answers the questions that he outlined and, on that basis, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Football Clubs: Ownership Test

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to legislate to strengthen the “fit and proper person” test for the ownership of football clubs.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have published the final report setting out the independent fan-led review of football governance’s recommendations for the reform of English football. These include proposals for a new and more robust test for owners and directors, resulting in a unified system which would be created and overseen by a new independent regulator for English football. The Government welcome the work of the review and will consider its detailed recommendations ahead of providing a full government response in the new year.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful Answer, but the recent takeover of Newcastle has raised many questions about the suitability of the fit and proper persons test. To be honest, concerns have been around for years but neither the footballing authorities nor the Government have come up with satisfactory answers. Last week, the Premier League’s chief executive said that, while there were concerns about the relationship between Newcastle’s owners and the Saudi state, he

“can’t choose who is chairing a football club”

because:

“The owners test doesn’t let us take a view”.


Does the Minister believe that that is right, and can he tell us when, or if, the Government will legislate on the test?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the takeover of Newcastle United by PCP Capital Partners has always been a matter for the club and the Premier League, which undertook its own due diligence as part of the owners and directors test. My honourable friend Tracey Crouch looked into that with the fan-led review and, as I said, we welcome the report of that review and are looking at all its recommendations, including on the owners and directors test. We will come back with our response to those in full.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the Newcastle situation is rather different from others because part of a British city’s identity is effectively being taken over by a foreign power with a questionable reputation for human rights abuses. Are we going to take in special regulation that means that we actually look at that when we are considering football ownership—because we have such a profitable Premiership?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, a lot of Newcastle United fans would take exception with the way that the noble Lord characterises that. They certainly welcome the investment in the club and the opportunity for dialogue, which is such an important part of sporting endeavour.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare a slightly ancient interest: I was a vice-chair of the Football Task Force, whose report in 1999 was the last serious attempt to, in the words of the Independent, “deliver a fair deal” for fans. Our proposal for independent regulation was blocked by the Premier League, the Football League and the FA. Can the Minister assure me that Tracey Crouch’s excellent report will not go the same way as the Football Task Force’s final report? Has he seen these words in her fan-led review:

“The fit and proper persons test has failed to stop many owners who are not ‘fit and proper’. It’s a disaster of a system.”

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I know that the noble Lord is a committed fan and campaigner. My honourable friend Tracey Crouch will certainly not let the matter rest. She has led a very good review. She was in another place when it was debated last week, and I know that she will not let up on this important issue. It is also thanks to the contributions of many thousands of football fans, which have informed the review very well.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the work that we did at UK Sport on good governance as part of the Mission 2012 and Road to Rio programmes, delivering benefits not just in the boardrooms of sport but in the pool, on the pitch and across the park? Would he agree that good governance is not a “nice to have” or a matter of compliance; it is essential for ethical and safe support and absolutely essential for sustainable and successful sport?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend: Mission 2012 helped to identify athlete performance issues and challenges, enabling them to be dealt with quickly and efficiently in the run-up to the London Games in 2012. I am pleased to say that the process has been used in subsequent Olympic and Paralympic cycles. Since 2017, the Code for Sports Governance has set out the standards that all sporting organisations must meet in return for public funding, either from UK Sport or Sport England.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I should perhaps declare an interest as a supporter of West Ham United, which looks set to be owned by Czech billionaire Daniel Křetínský. But does the Minister agree that foreign ownership is not the core issue here—rather, it is the need for clearly defined integrity tests for all football club owners, whether British or foreign? Does he also agree that the fit and proper person test should include human rights, mindful of so-called “sportswashing”? On that basis, a club like Newcastle might not now be 80% owned by the Saudi Arabian Public Investment Fund.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Tracey Crouch, in the fan-led review, makes the point about an integrity test. As I said, we welcome the report—we will look at all the recommendations and come forward with our response to them in due course.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I declare my interest as recorded in the register. Would the Minister agree that transparency is an important part of the fit and proper person test? Has the Premier League given an answer to the following question to its football clubs, the Government or the media: what are the governance differences from the previous position, which ruled out the Newcastle United purchase, to the position agreed by the Premier League on 7 October that the takeover is now acceptable, such that the assurances of no interference from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia can be relied upon? Can the answer be given to assure all football fans concerned about the propriety of the game?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I do not know if the Premier League has answered that, but I will certainly take the point away and ask on behalf of the noble Lord. But, as I say, the takeover of Newcastle United has been a matter for it and the Premier League, which undertook its own due diligence as part of the owners and directors test.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, I do not think anybody doubts Tracey Crouch’s commitment to reform, but as the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, reminded us, the Mellor-Faulkner report 20 years ago was equally determined to clean up football and was defeated by vested interests within the game. Can the Minister assure us that there will be backbone in No.10 as well as with Tracey Crouch in seeing these reforms through?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Yes, and I would point to the Government’s manifesto, which committed to this fan-led review. Football is nothing without its fans. That is why we have taken action at every step to support them, both through the manifesto commitment but also during the pandemic by getting football back on television and using the events research programme to get fans back safely into stadia.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

I declare my interest as the fan-elected chair of the oldest fan group in world football, at Leeds United. Does the Minister agree that the Premier League is the biggest single success that this country has in terms of reputation across the world and is loved by people wanting to watch it well beyond this country? Does he further agree that there is a fundamental difference between the Premier League and those who have owned clubs such as Bury, Darlington and Chester who have managed to wreck and ruin them?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord is right about the great pride that fans across the country place in the national sport and its huge impact not just in this country but worldwide. That is why we welcome the fan-led review and committed to it in our manifesto. It is also why we will study it carefully and come back with our response.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord McNally reminded us of the fate of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, two decades ago, and Tracey Crouch’s report must see the light of day. However, I ask again, as others have: what does “in due course” mean and what will happen to any other proposed changes of ownership between now and any future legislation?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, Tracey Crouch’s report saw the light of day on Thursday. It was published; it is 160 pages long. She makes 47 detailed recommendations. The Government are studying all those. We will do her and the 20,000 fans who took part in the review the respect of looking at it and will come forward with our response.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I add my congratulations to those offered to Tracey Crouch and the team for producing the report with its 47 recommendations. It has the potential to become truly transformational, if and when it is implemented in full. But can I clarify one point? As a Newcastle United fan, under some pressure, I ask the Minister what the Government believe is meant by the term “good character” on page 69 of the report, and does he believe that the new owners of Newcastle United would pass that specific test?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, what Tracey Crouch meant in her report is a question for her, but, as I have said, we are studying the report and its recommendations and will take them forward. The takeover of Newcastle United has always been a matter for it and the Premier League. Without knowing the specifics, it is hard for me to say what impact such a recommendation would have. As the noble Lord will know as well as I do, Newcastle United fans have welcomed the new investment in the club, but have done so with open eyes and while engaging in the dialogue that is an important part of sport.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Independent Fan-led Review of Football Governance

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, we strongly welcome the independent Crouch review, whose recommendations, I have to say, look suspiciously like the sports section of the Labour Party manifesto, going back several general elections. We have long called for fans to be placed at the centre of the game that they do so much to sustain and for stronger protections when they are mistreated or their beloved clubs mismanaged. The Government say they will respond to the review in spring 2022 but, let us be clear, there is much that can be done in the interim. Will they, for example, establish a shadow regulator ahead of the 2022-23 season? Can the Minister confirm that any enabling legislation for Tracey Crouch’s reform package will not only feature in the next Queen’s Speech but be made a genuine political priority?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a matter that transcends party politics. Football clubs are at the heart of our communities and fans are at the heart of those clubs, and everybody with an interest wants to make sure that they are. I am very proud that our manifesto commitment to set up this review has led to it in swift time; Tracey Crouch has done very thorough work at good speed. We will give her report and the views of all the fans who contributed to it the respect that they deserve; the report deserves a substantive response from the Government and it will get one. But the noble Lord is right that there are things that can be done now, not least by football clubs themselves, with regard to heritage, financial flows and governance. They need not wait for us to go through the report and come forward with our response to start taking the action that people want to see.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as one of 8,800 owners of Heart of Midlothian Football Club, the largest fan-owned club in the whole of the United Kingdom. I also have the privilege of having prepared a report on football governance for the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, which will be considered at a committee on Thursday and then at the plenary session in January. That report endorses what Tracey Crouch has said but goes even further. Can I have the Minister’s assurance that, when the Committee of Ministers approves my report, as I expect it will, it will then be considered in detail by Her Majesty’s Government?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Yes, I am sure my honourable friend the Sports Minister will be delighted to receive a copy of the report when it is published and will of course look at it with the attention and respect it deserves.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend, in asking for better commitment towards fans, also recognise that, if fans were much more involved in the management of their clubs, we might be able to reduce the scale of racism that has come into football?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very good point. Fans have been aghast at some of the appalling things that we have seen in recent years directed at football players at every level. That is why we want to ensure that true fans of football have their voices heard at every level, not least in calling out the abhorrent racism that we sometimes see.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister give an assurance that, if we follow the lines of the report, the Government will take seriously the fact that the Premier League has got to pump more money into the lower professional leagues to keep them viable? Without this, we will see more and more of the fiascos that have happened with smaller football clubs such as Northampton, where something that is part of that town’s heritage is taken away, or threatened to be taken away, from it.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, yes, the Government were very clear that cash should flow through the football pyramid more fairly and called on clubs to do that during the pandemic. I am very glad to say that, in many cases, it was so, but that is one of the recommendations followed up by Tracey Crouch and her review and one that we will look at carefully.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)]

My Lords, as a member of the north-east fanatical football supporters’ league—but not a Newcastle United fan—I was disappointed when the Minister said earlier on that, essentially, the way the Premier League assesses “fit and proper person” is none of the Government’s business. It should be. Some of us have been saying for 20 years—for a lot longer than that, actually—that too much of our football governance is not fit for purpose and that the drive of the Premier League for more and more money has undermined much of what football is meant to be about. It is tragic that we do not have more fans properly engaged in governance in this country. The Premier League—I challenge it on this—does not want that because it believes that it will put off money and monied people coming into the Premier League. Therefore, will the Government, in their review of the Tracey Crouch report and their thoughts about future governance, really think about the model that is spread throughout the UK that would involve fans much more centrally in direct governance of football?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, as I say, while we are considering the review’s recommendations, it is clear from Tracey Crouch’s report that there is a significant opportunity to tighten up and strengthen the current owners’ and directors’ test. We will look at that very seriously and come forward with our response to the report in due course.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend commend the report by our honourable friend Tracey Crouch for being so bold? I support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington; 62 insolvencies of lower-league clubs have occurred. Will my noble friend’s department use every good office to ensure that—while not harming the Premier League in the long term—more money will filter down to the lower levels?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in reiterating my thanks to our honourable friend Tracey Crouch for the work that she has done. Football has had many opportunities to get its house in order but has not taken them, and that is why this report is such an important and timely one. In the past, football’s failure to reform itself has had an injurious impact on many clubs, as we saw with the proposals to set up the closed shop of a European super league. That is why we have taken the action of commissioning this fan-led review and why we will respond to it thoroughly.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, there are not many things that England leads the world at, but the Premier League is one of them. One of the reasons for that is because it has attracted investment from right around the world. While I am no fan of the Saudi Arabian takeover of Newcastle, I think we have to be really cautious about anything which might undermine the Premier League’s success in future.

I want to ask the Minister a couple of specific questions. Can he explain how he thinks an independent regulator would, for example, have prevented the collapse of Bury? What happened there was that a guy came in, bought the club and eventually did not have the funds to sustain it, and the club went bust. Would an independent regulator have blocked his purchase of Bury? If it had done so, the club would have gone bust sooner and the independent regulator—and by extension the Government—would have got the blame. I think there is no possibility that an independent regulator would have done that. People talk about more money cascading down the pyramid. Is the Minister not aware that the Premier League gave £250 million to the Championship and millions more to the leagues below that? One of the reasons it was able to do that is because the league has been so successful, so let us be cautious about undermining that.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, Tracey Crouch’s review demonstrates that there are fundamental issues with our national sport and that there is a case for significant reform. We do not want to see any more of our historic clubs vanishing from the football leagues and football not doing enough to help itself. The scenarios the noble Lord outlines are the ones we will have in mind as we look at the recommendations she made and as we formulate our responses to them.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that, though football is the national game, it cannot in any sense be separate from the national culture and values? To this end, it has a way to go to be truly inclusive for all. Would he agree that the Crouch review makes many excellent recommendations to this effect and is well worth the Government considering extremely seriously?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Yes, we are indeed considering it very seriously. My noble friend is right that the pride we invest in our national sport and demonstrate when it is watched and enjoyed by people all over the world is a demonstration of our values as a nation. That is why the international reach of football and the great interest it attracts—whether that is from fans or investors overseas—should be a source of pride as well, and our response to the fan-led review will aim to strengthen all of that.

Ofcom: Appointment of Chair

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the criteria for the appointment of the next Chair of Ofcom; and what has been the impact of the withdrawal of Paul Dacre on the progress with that recruitment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, the essential criteria for the role of chairman of Ofcom have been publicly available on the public appointments website since the process launched on 1 November. The panel, whose names have also been published, will be responsible for assessing candidates objectively against these criteria. The process is fair and open and the Secretary of State has been clear that she wants the best candidate for the role and to be presented with a choice of candidates from a broad and diverse field.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

I thank the noble Lord for his Answer and say how pleased we are on these Benches that so many Conservative Ministers are celebrating the creative industries this week. Does the Minister agree that my Question would not have had to be asked if the Prime Minister had heeded warnings, including from Julian Knight MP, chair of the DCMS Select Committee, not to pursue bending the rules to suit the reapplication of the person of his choice? Going forward, will the Minister assure this House that choosing the next chair will be conducted in a way that ensures the integrity and independence of the process, as is fit for Ofcom’s global reputation as an independent regulator?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the original competition was rerun because of the disappointing number of candidates. As the previous commissioner, Peter Riddell, wrote, one of the reasons for that was no doubt a result of speculation in the press at the start of the process about candidates said to be preferred by Ministers. It is regrettable that that speculation may be putting people off. We want to see a broad and diverse range of people applying so that the right person can get this important job.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I commend the Minister for his honesty but now that plan A is out of the way—with Paul Dacre having thought better of it and decided to continue with his senior editorial role at the Mail newspapers—can he update noble Lords on plan B? Would the Minister like to come clean and tell the House who the preferred candidate is? Can he also ensure that the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, gets a set of application forms this time?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I cannot be drawn on speculation about candidates, either in the first round or now. This has always been a fair and open competition, run in line with the governance code. It is ongoing and we want to see the best candidate appointed to the job.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, whatever one’s view of Paul Dacre—I happen to regard him as a person of great integrity and ability who would have been a sensible choice to share Ofcom—surely what we should focus on now are his remarks about the Civil Service’s attitude to the private sector and wealth creation. Does the Minister agree with those remarks that Paul Dacre made and, if so, what does he plan to do about it?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Again, I cannot be drawn into speculation on who may or may not have applied, but the general thrust of my noble friend’s remarks makes an important point. Civil servants do a brilliant job in delivering the laws that we enact in this place and in another place, but it is important that there is oversight not just from Ministers but from a broad range of people with experience in those fields. We want a broad range to apply to be the chairman of this important regulator.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, according to the Daily Telegraph, the term popular in the 1980s that “Every Prime Minister needs a Willie” is back in fashion? That of course referred to the late and much lamented Viscount Whitelaw being available to Mrs Thatcher to curb her exuberances. Does he think that the present Prime Minister needs a Willie and, if he does, could he not look to the Privy Council Benches for an ideal candidate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I think that the noble Lord may be ranging a little from the topic. Like me, he is a former political secretary to a Prime Minister; it is a pleasure to serve Prime Ministers in whatever capacity and they benefit from a range of experience, as do all Ministers.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, I think that Paul Dacre would have been an excellent candidate to run Ofcom. When he stood down and withdrew his name, he said that the blob was in charge of the selection process and that it would never have shortlisted him for consideration by Ministers. Was he right?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Again, I cannot be drawn on speculation about who may have applied, but the panel in the first round and the new panel both include civil servants and non-civil servants, in line with the governance code.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, while these appointments to key bodies should remain in the hands of Ministers, there have to be proper checks and balances and that the candidates put forward to the Minister have to satisfy clear criteria of competence? In this case, will he, first, clearly condemn the fact that someone in government, probably a special adviser, leaked the name that we are talking about to deter other good candidates from applying? That was the purpose. Secondly, will he criticise the Secretary of State for having failed to get Sir Paul Dacre on the list the first time round, then altering the criteria to make it easier for that to happen?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I will not join the noble Lord in speculating on the Kremlinology of how the name came out but I agree with the former Commissioner for Public Appointments that it is regrettable that it did. As he has said, this

“appeared to pre-empt the outcome of the competition”

and “risks undermining public confidence”. There is a governance code that governs these public appointments processes. This one has been run in line with it and continues to be so.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that Ofcom is a statutory body with many, and increasing numbers of, serious statutory responsibilities? In that respect, what we are looking for in a chair is somebody who can bring a high calibre of judgment to those statutory responsibilities, not treat Ofcom as any kind of discretionary vehicle for their own prejudices. Does he therefore agree that we need somebody with that judgment, rather than prejudices, and that the same has to be true of the selection panel?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, this is an important job and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State wants to get a broad and diverse field of candidates to choose from, so that we can select the right person to chair this important regulator. That is why the governance code makes sure that the process for choosing that person is open and fair.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, regardless of his suitability for the job, Paul Dacre’s stinging critique of the blob rang true with many of us, especially as only yesterday Dame Kate Bingham accused the Civil Service of groupthink and risk aversion. Does the Minister agree that, whoever is recruited, they will need to be sufficiently independent of mind to face down the blob? They should break Ofcom out of any sort of groupthink—the sort that led one of the most powerful regulators in the land to so unwisely be captured by the gender ID lobbying group Stonewall, perilously threatening impartiality in the media in the coverage of women’s sex-based rights.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

On the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, yes, this underlines the importance of having independent people appointed to oversee such important regulators. It also underlines the need for boards with a broad and diverse range of views. All government departments and regulators such as Ofcom benefit from that breadth of experience and views.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Is it not vital that whoever is chosen is articulate, has a strong mind and, most of all, has the courage to stand up to the giants of social media?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The criteria for this big and important job are published online and note the role that Ofcom has in regulating not just the traditional media but the social media too.

Charities and Civil Society: Ministerial Responsibility

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare an interest as president of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, we greatly value the important role that charities and civil society groups play, and work across government to support them as they do so. This includes in the areas of sport and heritage where, as in so many others, charities and volunteers play a crucial part. Aligning those ministerial responsibilities creates a real opportunity for an innovative and collaborative approach to growing the sector’s contribution. My honourable friend is committed to his brief and will ensure that charities and civil society organisations benefit from significant attention.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his reassurances, but research by the commission on civil society showed that ministerial engagement with the social sector is significantly lower than engagement with business, despite the huge contribution made by that sector in the Covid crisis, as the Minister acknowledged. In the absence of a dedicated Minister, will the Government consider returning to a system of having nominated civil servants in every government department, not just DCMS, responsible for engagement with civil society, as was the case some years ago, when I chaired the advisory body for the third sector set up by a previous Government?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, with 170,000 registered charities in England alone, it would of course be impossible for any or all Ministers to speak to every charitable organisation that does such important work. It is a duty for all Ministers in the roles they perform. In my portfolio, I have already in my weeks of office had the pleasure of working with the Music for Youth organisation and the Intermission Youth Theatre, and I know that ministerial colleagues across government take very seriously the role that civil society organisations play, not least my honourable friend, with his specific responsibilities.

[Lord Colgrain (Con)]

I declare my interests as set out in the register, with particular reference to the Harris (Belmont) Trust and Rochester Cathedral. Does my noble friend agree that within whichever department charities sit, the role of their volunteers is paramount? What measures can the Government take to facilitate their rapid return after the pandemic to both charities and those other organisations where volunteers fulfil a vital need, such as special constables in the police force? Will he also give an opinion on whether the position of volunteers could be included on future census forms?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The Government recognise the vital importance of volunteering and its wide-ranging benefits, not just to the organisations for whom people volunteer but for individuals themselves. We know that, during the pandemic, volunteers have had to make adjustments or pause their volunteering and we are very grateful to them for adapting as they have. My honourable friend is seeking to learn from the new approaches developed in the pandemic. We have launched a new volunteering futures fund, through which £7 million will be made available to improve the accessibility of volunteering in the arts, culture, sport, civil society and many other sectors. On the point about the census, it was included in the 2018 White Paper published by the Minister for the Constitution. It was rejected by the Office for National Statistics, but DCMS’s community life survey captures people’s volunteering.

[Lord Crisp (CB)]

My Lords, as has been mentioned, voluntary and community associations have had an enormous impact on health and well-being during the Covid pandemic. There are several important organisations. I think of those such as C2, Connecting Communities, the Health Creation Alliance and others which support and develop those organisations. Will the department engage with the Department of Health and Social Care to support and develop those enabling organisations, as well as the sector more generally?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is of course a former Health Minister, and the new Health Secretary is a former Culture Minister, so the insights that each have gained in their respective departments will, I know, be brought to their work. My honourable friend the Minister works with a range of groups—charities themselves but also sector representatives— including through round table meetings.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, the voluntary and community sector deservedly gained a high profile during the pandemic, particularly as so many people responded to the call to volunteer at a time of national need. What assessment has the Minister made of the effectiveness of government machinery in harnessing that activity to support the sector? With all due respect to existing ministerial efforts and responsibilities, does he feel that there is a case to be made for a full-time Minister who will work across Whitehall and beyond to ensure focus on this?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right to point to the fantastic work that volunteers did during the pandemic. The Government stood by them with support, including an unprecedented £750 million package specifically for charities, social enterprises and the voluntary sector, and my honourable friend, with his responsibilities, is the champion for the sector in government.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I must remember to declare my interests. Does the Minister agree that having one Minister in the smallest department in government, who is covering dozens of other subjects, does not exactly instil confidence? Also, if they are not going to have a powerful enough Minister, when will we get an idea about a coherent strategy throughout government for dealing with the charitable and voluntary sector, which is simply too big to ignore?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, it is not being ignored. Ministers in every department, big and small, work with a range of charitable and civil society organisations and greatly value the work that they do. This is not something just for DCMS, but my honourable friend, with his responsibilities, is the Minister with specific focus on championing them and ensuring that across government we are giving the sector the support it needs, such as I have mentioned.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. Does my noble friend agree that there is some sense in combining these responsibilities, as, for example, in the case of the British Paralympic Association, an excellent sport organisation and an excellent charity? Does he also agree that in our honourable friend Nigel Huddleston we have a Minister with the talent and tenacity to make a stunning success of his new portfolio?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I certainly agree with my noble friend and thank him for that. He is right to point out that the briefs of civil society and sport have been combined before to great effect, and right to point to the fantastic organisations that work at increasing people’s participation in sport and physical activity through charitable and civil society groups.

[Baroness Prashar (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a trustee of Beacon Collaborative, a charity dedicated to promoting philanthropy. As has been said, Covid highlighted not only the importance of civil society but how fragile its sustainability and financial resilience are. Does the Minister agree that the growth of philanthropy is very desirable to increase support for civil society and, if so, can he tell us what the Government are doing to enable greater giving and philanthropy? Is he confident that the current ministerial arrangements are sufficient to support civil society and the growth of philanthropy, and to gain insights into the needs and values of the sector?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right to point to the huge importance of philanthropy in supporting the groups, and to the fantastic work that they do across the country. In addition to the support that the Government gave from the taxpayer, we are keeping a close eye on the health of the sector as it emerges from the pandemic. I am glad to say that the work of the Charity Commission shows that only 1% of charities foresee a critical threat to their survival in the next 12 months. However, we continue to keep a close eye on them.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, what worries me is the way we are trying to overload the responsibilities of one particular Minister. I think of the Minister for Intergovernmental Relations. I think it should be the Minister for Inter-Gove-rnmental Relations, because he already looks after housing, communities and levelling up. Let us give him Scotland, Wales and England. It is nonsense. Is it not only overworking somebody who does a good job in many ways but denying the younger and newer generation experience at that level to take over major government responsibilities at some time? What are the Minister and the Government thinking about in this sort of situation?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The Minister with responsibility for civil society is my honourable friend Nigel Huddleston, not my right honourable friend Michael Gove, though, as I say, all Ministers across government work with the third sector in the important work they do. I also point out that responsibility for the voluntary sector and volunteering in the Welsh Government is held by two people who combine that with responsibilities for welfare reform, fuel poverty, fire and rescue services, domestic abuse, youth justice, community safety and much else.

[Baroness Sater (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. As has been said, volunteers have always played an incredible role in British life. I think of the Olympics, the Paralympics, the ongoing Covid pandemic and the tireless efforts of millions of everyday people across the country. Does my noble friend agree that more can be done to harness and galvanise the spirit of volunteering by introducing a framework that links a volunteer’s voice within and across national and local government, and a volunteer champion to protect and recognise achievements, to stand up for their views and interests, and to help order the future functioning of volunteering? Will my noble friend therefore consider appointing a commissioner for volunteering to support the sector and give it the status that it so richly deserves?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the Government highly value the contribution of volunteers across the whole of society. We witnessed the huge difference they can make during the pandemic, as well as in the examples my noble friend raised. Volunteers are represented in discussions with government by a variety of sector representatives and bodies, but I will take her interesting suggestion back to my honourable friend the Minister and discuss it. I have also pointed to the volunteering futures fund, which the Government have announced to support more people to volunteer and play their important role.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Dormant Assets Bill [HL]

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass and, in doing so, take the opportunity to thank noble Lords from all sides of your Lordships’ House for their interest and contributions to the progress of the Bill so far. I am grateful for the scrutiny that they have brought, and the co-operative and constructive spirit in which the debates have taken place. I am also grateful for the broad cross-party support that the Bill has received so far. It is clear that all corners of your Lordships’ House share the same ambition to ensure the scheme’s continued success in unlocking dormant assets for public good.

I first thank my noble friend Lady Barran, who expertly led the Bill through Second Reading and Committee. I am very grateful for the opportunity to follow in her capable footsteps. I pay tribute also to the Front Benches opposite. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, have helpfully challenged the Government’s approach, and I thank them for the collaborative way in which they have done so. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Kramer, from the Liberal Democrat Benches, for all their invaluable contributions, which have been detailed and thoughtful. Noble Lords from across your Lordships’ House have contributed to a rich discussion on the Bill, and I am very grateful for all the points which have been raised.

As ever, I am grateful to the House authorities and parliamentary staff for their hard work behind the scenes. I acknowledge the extraordinary work of the officials who have worked so hard on the Bill for many months: the Bill team, the policy teams at DCMS and at Her Majesty’s Treasury, the lawyers in both departments, my own private office, the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the clerks in this place.

I take this opportunity to clarify aspects of the debate on Report regarding the additionality principle, an issue I discussed with the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Kramer. Section 24 of the 2008 Act empowers the Secretary of State to add or remove named distributors of dormant assets funding. Currently, the only named distributor is the National Lottery Community Fund, and all funds, including those distributed through the four independent spend organisations in England, flow through it. Section 24 also provides for making consequential amendments, including to Schedule 3, where responsibility for reporting on the additionality principle is set out.

The Government consider additionality to be critical to the scheme’s success, and we have reiterated this position throughout our debates on the Bill. Indeed, we are clear that the voluntary participation of the industry is dependent on it. While we emphasise that there are no plans to change or add new distributors, I can reassure noble Lords that it is the Government’s policy that any new distributor added should be required to report on this principle in the same way that the fund is required to do so now.

The dormant assets scheme has spent the last decade working to tackle systemic social and environmental challenges and to level up communities which need it most. This Bill is set to unlock almost £1 billion of additional funding to ensure that the scheme continues to support innovative, long-term initiatives that seek to address some of the UK’s most important challenges.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be pleased to hear that I will be brief, but some thanks are worth echoing. I thank the Minister; it is never easy taking up another person’s Bill halfway through. I have had to do it myself and, at times, I lurched from being completely out of my depth to being a total shambles, so I know how it feels. The noble Lord was neither of those things; he was courteous and considerate of the points that we made and the amendments we moved.

Like the noble Lord I am delighted that we are moving to unlock previously untapped assets. I hope that the next iteration of this legislation—this is, after all, the second Bill on dormant assets—will bring forward even more dormancy and unlock it, so that communities can benefit.

I also thank the Minister’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, for her time spent on the Bill. She was, like him, very courteous and open-minded about ways in which we can forge improvements. She was also willing to meet and discuss aspects of the legislation. I echo his thanks to my noble friend Lady Merron—my good friend—for her part in this. It is always a pleasure to work with her. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Barker, on the Lib Dem Benches, who also played an active and energetic part.

Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, played a decisive role on Report in helping to support the amendment that we sponsored on the community wealth fund, for which there was all-party support. Before the Commons is invited to reject that amendment, I suggest to the Minister that it might be an idea to sponsor some discussion between his ministerial colleagues and other Benches in your Lordships’ House to see if there is a way in which we can find some common ground on this—because I am very persuaded, as I know others are, of the benefit of the community wealth fund as a way forward. As he said, these resources can do a lot to take forward the shared agenda of levelling up and bring additional resources to bear in hard-pressed communities. We for our part would be very happy to meet and discuss this to see what common ground we can secure, because this is an important opportunity for us all, if we want to make it stick.

We wish the Bill well. It has been improved by your Lordships’ House, not just by the amendment on the community wealth fund but in other aspects as well. I thank the Minister for his comments on additionality, which will be very helpful. I am happy to support the Bill as it goes on its way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank very much the Minister, his predecessor—the noble Baroness, Lady Barran—and the team. As is always the case with a Bill that is very technical and arcane, they had to display endless patience with the opposition as we painstakingly made our way to the place that they were already at. I also thank my noble friends Lady Bowles and Lady Kramer, who brought to the Bill a completely fresh eye from the financial sector and who set a very high standard of scrutiny for a Bill that is normally given over to those of us interested in the world of charity.

We achieved three things during the passage of the Bill. First, we made it clear that this is not simply an exercise in spending dormant money because it is there. We made sure that the scheme is about achieving impacts on financial inclusion in areas of deprivation. Secondly, we enabled it to be run using far more difficult asset classes than just bank accounts, and we made sure that the reporting systems for that were fit for purpose. Thirdly, we made sure that everyone involved in the scheme is under a duty to report—this is about additionality, not giving the Government a fund that they can dip into in difficult times.

In years to come, we will have reports from the disbursing body and the Secretary of State that I hope will show the impact of this, particularly in one respect: the endeavour to get rid of moneylenders in poor communities. If we achieve that, we will together have achieved something good and which we can be proud to support.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their comments, and I echo the tributes that they paid to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and many others who contributed to the debates on this.

I will certainly discuss the point that the noble Lord raised with my honourable friend Nigel Huddleston, the Minister with responsibility for the Bill, in his capacity as Minister for Charities and Civil Society, as we just heard in Questions. I am sure that he will want to continue the discussions that we have had on community wealth funds as the Bill goes to another place but, as I say, I am very grateful that it does so with genuine cross-party support and a fair wind behind it. I grateful to all noble Lords who have ensured that this is so.

Age Assurance (Minimum Standards) Bill [HL]

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for bringing forward this Bill, as I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this morning’s debate. We have heard from campaigners, lawyers, educators, scientists, parents and grandparents. We all share the same goal: protecting children online and ensuring that the tools used to do so are effective and can be trusted. The Government share that goal; child online safety is a priority for Her Majesty’s Government and our online safety legislation is designed to make the UK the safest place in the world to be a child online. Protecting children is at the heart of that legislation and the strongest protections in the regulatory framework that we wish to set up will be for children.

Let me speak first about the scope of the noble Baroness’s Bill, which proposes setting mandatory standards for age-assurance technologies, if or when they are used by companies. It particularly focuses on user privacy and data security. As my noble friends Lady Harding of Winscombe and Lord Gilbert of Panteg, and others, have rightly highlighted, it does not introduce new requirements on companies to use age assurance for the purposes of child safety or for other age-gating purposes. I think we are all in agreement that children should be protected from experiencing harm online and provided with age-appropriate environments. This will be delivered through the Government’s new online safety legislation, which is currently going through pre-legislative scrutiny and benefits from the expertise of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, my noble friend Lord Gilbert, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others.

We fully agree with the objectives of the noble Baroness’s Bill. Age-assurance technologies must be privacy preserving, secure, effective and inclusive. This is needed to ensure that children are appropriately protected and that the public have trust in the solutions that protect them. Standards are key to this. Importantly, they will provide regulators with agreed benchmarks so that they can regulate with confidence. However, as the noble Baroness rightly anticipated, the Government are not supporting her Bill. As I have said, while we strongly agree with its aims, we have reservations about whether this is the right vehicle to deliver them, and I will set out why.

The Government believe that the online safety Bill is the better route to deliver these objectives, through the regulator’s codes of practice. As the online safety regulator, Ofcom will set out in codes of practice the steps that companies can take to deliver their safety duties. Given the importance of age-assurance technologies to the Bill’s higher level of protection for children, we expect Ofcom to include steps on age assurance in its regulatory codes, as part of which Ofcom can include specific standards and name them. Companies will be required to follow the code or demonstrate that they have achieved equivalent outcomes, or they will face enforcement action.

The noble Baroness and others asked why age verification is not required in the online safety Bill. I am mindful that this draft Bill is undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny at the moment, but I will say a little bit about it, as drafted, and the approach that we have taken to it. It is important that it is future-proofed, because what is most effective today may not be so effective in the future. To ensure the future-proofing approach, the Bill will not mandate that companies use specific technologies for protecting children online. However, in its codes of practice, Ofcom will set out the steps that companies need to take to comply with their duties, which will include the use of age-assurance technologies. Companies would need to put in place these technologies or demonstrate that the approach they are taking delivers the same level of protection for children. Ofcom will also be able to take action against companies that fail to take action to protect children from online pornography.

My noble friend Lord Gilbert and the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, asked about protecting children from online pornography on services that do not currently fall within the scope of the draft online safety Bill. Again, I am mindful of the work that the Joint Committee is doing to scrutinise it, and we are grateful for its work on this issue. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State mentioned during her evidence session to the Joint Committee, we are exploring ways to provide wider protections for children from accessing online pornography through the Bill, including on sites not currently within the draft Bill’s scope.

DCMS already has a programme of work under way to develop an international standard for age-assurance solutions. This includes the development of an international standard, through work with the British Standards Institution and the International Organization for Standardization. A specific objective of this work is to provide regulators with a robust standard to refer to in their codes of practice and guidance.

I return to the noble Baroness’s Bill, which is our focus today. It rightly highlights the importance of data protection and safeguarding users’ privacy. I certainly do not criticise her for including that in her Bill. This was an issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and others picked up on. The Government also take privacy very seriously.

Under the online safety Bill, companies will be required to have regard to the importance of protecting users’ privacy when putting in place measures, including age-assurance technologies. In addition, Ofcom will be required to set out safeguards for privacy in the codes of practice. Where relevant, we expect Ofcom to draw on the ICO’s existing expertise in developing its codes. Here I highlight that companies are already required to protect users’ data privacy via regulations under the remit of the Information Commissioner’s Office.

A number of standards in the noble Baroness’s Bill duplicate existing data-protection regulations. For example, providing “sufficient and meaningful information” for users in an accessible way is already addressed in the age-appropriate design code. Existing data-protection regulation also sets out how data should be securely used. The Government are keen to work closely with the Information Commissioner’s Office to ensure that this is clear to companies. Ofcom and the ICO are working closely on the issues of user privacy and age-assurance technologies to deliver clarity to companies.

So it is understandable that the noble Baroness’s Bill focuses on user privacy, but it duplicates existing regulation and gives Ofcom responsibility for regulation in areas already overseen by the Information Commissioner’s Office. We think that this risks creating a confusing regulatory landscape for companies and regulators and may undermine the Bill’s central intention.

It is also important that Ofcom is able confidently and robustly to enforce expectations relating to age assurance, regardless of where a company is based. I am sure that that is something with which all noble Lords would agree. The Government believe that the online safety Bill will achieve this more effectively than the Bill before us. First, it gives Ofcom the power to develop mandatory risk assessments for companies, which is essential for supporting the proportionate use of age assurance. Secondly, the online safety Bill considers the global nature of the internet and the companies in scope. It provides Ofcom with additional business-disruption powers, which will allow it to prevent services based abroad from disregarding UK requirements in relation to age assurance.

So we fear that seeking to deliver those objectives through the noble Baroness’s Bill risks being less effective than delivering them through the online safety Bill, which will ensure that all companies in scope adhere to high standards and are held to account when using age-assurance technologies.

I hear the anxiety of noble Lords and the urgency that many underlined. I also hear the challenge that the noble Baroness set me in her opening speech about what we are doing today. The Government are clear that companies should take steps now to improve user safety, particularly for children, and not wait for legislation to protect them. That is why we as a Government are taking action now, in advance of the online safety Bill, to help bring about change.

I will give some examples of that. The Government have published the interim codes of practice on terrorist content and child sexual exploitation and abuse online, which companies can follow now to remove illegal content and behaviour from their services. Earlier this year, we also published safety by design guidance, which sets out clearly for companies how to design and build safer online platforms. As the noble Baroness said, age assurance is not a silver bullet; it is just as critical that companies design safe and age-appropriate online environments for their users.

Published alongside this was a one-stop shop for companies on protecting children online that sets out their current legal requirements, making it easier for them to understand precisely what is expected of them. In July this year, the Government published the Online Media Literacy Strategy, which sets out our approach for supporting the empowerment of users of all ages with the key skills and knowledge that they need to make informed and safe choices online. So we are acting, even as we await the report of the Joint Committee on the draft online safety Bill.

That is why the Government believe that the approach that I have outlined today, delivering robust standards for age-assurance technologies through the online safety Bill, is the right one. We think that this will achieve the same objectives as the noble Baroness’s Bill and be appropriate for Ofcom’s regulatory remit. So, while I know that this will be disappointing to the noble Baroness today and to all the noble Lords who have spoken, I echo the tributes that have been paid to her for her industry, urgency and passion in this hugely important area.

My honourable friend the Minister for Technology and the Digital Economy and I have spoken to the noble Baroness about our shared objectives in this area and, importantly, our shared desire to move quickly, and we are very grateful for her time and engagement. At their appearance before the Joint Committee on the draft online safety Bill, my honourable friend and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said that they were interested in exploring whether it would be possible to expedite key parts of the online safety Bill, including work relating to age assurance.

I stress that the Government welcome open discussion and are keen to continue our conversations with the noble Baroness and all noble Lords who have raised issues today on this vital subject. The Government have been clear that they do not hold all the answers, which is why the online safety Bill is currently going through pre-legislative scrutiny. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and others for their work on that. I look forward to the debates that we will have on it—it is a very important piece of legislation—but I am afraid that we cannot support the noble Baroness’s Bill today.

Charities Bill [HL]

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Other Business

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall talk very briefly to this amendment. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that it is a privilege to be part of this technical Bill. It is one where I suspect that I, among other lay Members of this Committee, have learned a lot. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for introducing this amendment. He has explained a particular problem that is a big problem for a small number of charities. I understood that to be the problem that he outlined. The potential solution is not agreed between the Law Commission and certain specialist lawyers. Whether there is a way out of the problem through either dissolution or merger of the charity is something on which there is no overwhelming consensus.

I do not know what plans the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, has for his amendment at either this or later stages of the Bill. I shall listen to the Minister’s response to the issues raised by the noble Lord and then take a view, depending on what he does at a later stage.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, before responding to this group of amendments, I first extend my best wishes to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, who has so ably chaired this Special Public Bill Committee so far. I hope he gets well soon and is back with us swiftly.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts for tabling Amendments 1 and 2 to Clause 3 and for the way he set out not just the amendments but, helpfully, the background to the Bill’s importance to charities and the people it will affect. Of course, he has long-standing interest and experience in this important area.

On my noble friend’s Amendment 1, which would insert a new subsection (2A) at line 9 on page 3 of the Bill, we consider that new Section 280A can be used to replace all the stated governing document in its entirety, with Charity Commission consent in respect of the particular provisions that fall within Section 280A(8). We do not think that a legislative solution is necessary and, as has been noted, this view is supported by the Law Commission and the Charity Commission—we have discussed the issue with both of them. I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this point, as it has prompted us to consider ways in which we can make the position clearer, but I hope that, on that basis, he will feel able to withdraw his Amendment 1.

On Amendment 2, which would insert subsection (9A) at line 14 on page 4 of the Bill, although my noble friend again makes an important point, we can in fact already achieve what the amendment sets out to do under the clause as it stands. Under the Bill, the Charity Commission’s consent is required for an amendment that would alter any unincorporated charity’s purposes. That is equivalent to one category of regulated alterations for charitable incorporated organisations, which requires the consent of the Charity Commission. By way of comparison, the Charity Commission currently treats amendments to the purposes of charitable incorporated organisations of the same type referred to in the amendment as not being a regulated alteration and therefore not requiring Charity Commission consent. Given the similarity between the statutory provision concerning charitable incorporated organisations and the new Section 280A(8)(a), the same approach would be taken in relation to changes to unincorporated charities’ purposes. Therefore, Section 280A(8) as it stands already looks at substance over form, and an amendment to a governing document would require Charity Commission consent only if it makes a substantive change, not if it is a pure drafting change. I hope that provides reassurance to noble Lords. As with the previous amendment, this is a view supported by the Charity Commission and the Law Commission.

However, I thank my noble friend for keeping us on our toes and for rightly probing this issue. Of course we want the situation to be clear to everybody who will be affected by the new law, so we will consider whether the Explanatory Notes could be expanded on this point to make that clearer. I hope that, on the basis of that reassurance—not the third of the options that my noble friend outlined in his opening speech but looking again at the Explanatory Notes to make this clear to all concerned—he will feel able not to press his Amendment 2.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for their contributions. My noble friend the Minister has, of course, elegantly found a third way: it was not that the Charity Commission was wrong; it was not that we need to produce some new change to the Bill; there are powers within the Bill as it stands to find a way around the problem through Section 280A and ancillary provisions. I talked about getting barnacles off the boat, and this was certainly a barnacle. I will reflect on this, talk to the people from Spilsby, who are obviously at the front line of this to see if they have any comments. In the meantime, I beg to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for tabling this amendment and to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, for moving it in his absence. I had a very helpful conversation with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, yesterday and am grateful to him for his time.

By way of background, there are six financial thresholds in the Bill, which directly or indirectly ensure proper regulatory oversight of charities by the Charity Commission. These thresholds can be amended by secondary legislation to ensure that they remain at an appropriate level, based on how they are working in practice and on changes in inflation. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House recommended that any future amendment of these thresholds should be subject to the affirmative, rather than the negative, parliamentary procedure. This means that there would need to be a parliamentary debate any time the Government sought to amend these thresholds.

The department rejected the committee’s recommendations because the powers are narrow in scope and the negative procedure would be consistent with similar amendment powers that already exist in the Charities Act 2011. However, we recognise the difference between the delegated powers in Clause 12 and the delegated powers in the other five clauses that were discussed in the report. The powers in Clause 12 vary the proportion of permanent endowment that may be borrowed and the period over which such borrowing must be repaid; the other delegated powers are concerned with amending monetary sums.

I can see how this amendment to change the parliamentary procedure from the negative to the affirmative for the thresholds in Clause 12 would work in principle, and I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord and the Committee as a whole for putting this suggestion forward. I thank noble Lords who have made the case for it again today and acknowledge the points they have made. I will take them away and consider them carefully, and I expect to return to this issue on Report but, for now, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, on behalf of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, to withdraw his amendment.

Amendment 3 withdrawn.

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, similarly, I will be reading out the comments that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, has supplied me with on Amendment 4.

Section 115(5) of the 2011 Act provides that, if authorisation of the Charity Commission is required to take charity proceedings and it is refused, leave to take proceedings may be obtained from a judge of the Chancery Division of the High Court. There is a problem, however, with obtaining a timely decision of the Charity Commission one way or the other, as no application may be made to the Chancery Division for leave until the Charity Commission has made a decision to refuse authorisation. The result of delay by the Charity Commission in making a decision is that there may be a lengthy period of uncertainty and enforced inactivity.

This amendment addresses that problem by imposing on the Charity Commission a time limit of 60 days for refusal of authorisation. This is a typical time limit under the provisions of the 2011 Act, such as Sections 270 and 271 on a resolution to transfer all the property of a charity to take effect at the end of the period of 60 days, unless the Charity Commission notifies the charity before the expiry of the 60 days that it objects to the resolution, and Sections 277 and 278 on a resolution to modify the purposes of the charity to take effect at the end of the period of 60 days, unless the Charity Commission notifies the charity before the expiry of the 60 days that it objects to the resolution. Under Clause 11(3) of the Bill, where there is a resolution to spend the endowment fund of a charity under Section 282 of the 2011 Act, the commission is to state within 60 days whether it concurs with the resolution or not. If it fails to do so, the fund or relevant portion of it can be expended free of the restrictions that would otherwise apply. I beg to move.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for his proposed amendment and again to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for speaking to it. It is important that we consider both the concern that the amendment seeks to address and the practicalities of implementing such a suggestion.

We are not currently aware of any particular issue with the amount of time taken by the Charity Commission to respond to applications to pursue charity proceedings. There was mention during the evidence sessions which the committee has heard of some perceived delays at the Charity Commission, but I do not think they were in relation to decisions under Section 115. If an issue were raised in relation to the time taken by the Charity Commission for these considerations, that could be looked at without the need for legislation, for example by looking at internal processes.

By way of background, requests for Section 115 charity proceedings are rare. The Charity Commission’s consideration of such requests is often complex, being different from that of other requests of the Charity Commission, which tend to be more transactional in nature. Charity proceedings relate to the internal or domestic affairs of a charity. There are a number of considerations in relation to such requests that the Charity Commission must resolve, as set out in its guidance. The Charity Commission has therefore raised concerns about the appropriateness of a statutory timescale.

To illustrate one such complexity, these applications do not always result in either a grant or refusal of consent. In order to protect charitable funds, the Charity Commission tries to see whether there are routes the charity can take to avoid going to court. This has previously led to the charity resolving the issue itself, or the Charity Commission using its powers, such as by making an order or providing an action plan to resolve the issue.

The need for Charity Commission permission is intended to protect charitable funds and the courts from claims that have no reasonable prospects of success or which could be addressed more appropriately in other ways. It is also important for the Charity Commission to be satisfied that it is in the best interests of the charity that the matter be adjudicated on by the court. For the most part, these cases relate to internal disputes. While these issues can be complex and involve a lot of information, they also typically relate to one charity and therefore have a low impact on the sector as a whole.

The issue with having a timescale imposed on the Charity Commission for a decision of this nature, when no equivalent timescales are imposed for other Charity Commission decisions, also means that resolving these requests may become a higher priority for the commission than other higher-risk or higher-impact work. This would not be conducive to the Charity Commission’s role as a regulator of the sector when taken in the round.

If after a certain time cases were automatically to proceed to court without the consent of the Charity Commission, we would be concerned about the potential for court time and costs being spent on unnecessary or meritless claims. There is also the issue of cases where the Charity Commission has not received enough information to make a decision, which often happens with such requests, and further information or advice may also be sought by the commission following legal referrals. We are therefore apprehensive about the implementation of the 60-day time limit proposed and would invite the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment too, but we have heard the points of concern which have been raised and will of course reflect further on them.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for responding to the points that I read out on behalf of the noble and learned Lord. The gist of his response, as far as I understood it, was that he was not aware of any particular issues, and internal processes could be adapted to meet this problem. I too have spoken to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, in the past couple of days. He said to me that he thought it was self-evident that there was a problem. He will no doubt read the Minister’s response with interest and the various reasons for which the Charity Commission is resisting this amendment. If more evidence is readily available, I am sure he will bring it to the Minister’s attention. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that clarification. I understand her point: she does not want a “never-ending prevarication”, to use her words. I will draw her question to the attention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, so that he can respond to her.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts for tabling this amendment and the other noble Lords who put their names to it. As the Committee knows, when we responded to the Law Commission’s report in March the Government rejected the recommendation that the Charity Commission should be able to make a reference to the charity tribunal without first having to get consent from the Attorney-General.

Having noted the oral and written evidence taken by the Committee, we remain of the view that the Attorney-General’s consent function represents an important check in the system. As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, noted, the evidence received by the Committee underlines the difference of opinion that exists among experts with regard to the Attorney-General’s consent requirement for references to the tribunal. This difference strengthened our conviction that the role of the Attorney-General as the constitutional protector of charities is important, and that this is a different role from the regulatory function of the Charity Commission. It is a mechanism that we feel must be protected.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston for her support for the Bill. Indeed, this is a Bill that she advocated during her time as chair of the Charity Commission. She is right to point to the excellent work it does in this important sector, but we see this mechanism as not an obstacle for the Charity Commission but rather a safeguard for it. The mechanism is already narrowly drawn, and a second opinion prior to the tribunal can help filter out claims that are not in the public interest before they burden the tribunal and, potentially, the charity in question if applicable to that case.

The Charity Commission may refer to the tribunal questions that have arisen in connection with the exercise of its functions which involve the operation of charity law or its application to a particular state of affairs. The requirement for the Attorney-General’s consent reinforces this approach.

The Charity Commission has an array of statutory functions, the vast majority of which it performs without the involvement of the Attorney-General. The two referrals that have been made to the tribunal followed close discussions between the Charity Commission and the Attorney-General, where both agreed that it was in the public interest to proceed. The Attorney-General’s consent function does not undermine the regulator’s role; rather, it supports and complements it by ensuring that referrals are made to the tribunal only where there is a clear public interest in doing so. That is why the Government cannot support the amendment and why I hope my noble friend will withdraw it.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for his Amendment 6, which proposes a time limit of 60 days for the Attorney-General to make a decision on applications for references to the tribunal. Imposing a 60-day time limit on that decision to give or withhold consent is a suggestion that requires due consideration.

The perceived delay in the most recent case, on the Royal Albert Hall, was due to the particularly complex nature of that case, which can often be the nature of such references. The Royal Albert Hall case was a matter for the Charity Commission and the Attorney-General. The Government support the role of the Attorney-General in making references, given that the Attorney-General values the importance of charity and her role as protector of charities. I recognise the amount of time taken to reach a decision in that case, but it was a very complex issue, illustrated perhaps by the length at which my noble friend set it out. I am glad that the case has now been concluded, and the Attorney-General continues to be grateful for the excellent work the Charity Commission does in regulating charities in England and Wales.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I am sorry, but this is getting a bit Jarndyce v Jarndyce. That case has not been concluded. There has been no clarification on that point of charity law. That is the problem.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am sorry, I should have said that I am glad that the long saga to which my noble friend referred has come to an end, but these are complex issues. We do not think we should give too much prominence to one case, long and complex though it may be. We do not think we should look to legislate to remove what is an important check and balance in the system on the basis of the evidence from that unique case, but I have heard the points of concern raised by noble Lords not just today but throughout our consideration of this Bill. We will certainly take away Amendment 6 from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, to consider it further ahead of Report, but I repeat that I hope my noble friend Lord Hodgson will withdraw Amendment 5.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Stowell and Lady Barker, for supporting my amendment and for their powerful interventions. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. He spoke on behalf of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, who was kind enough to speak to me over the weekend about his proposal.

Somebody said that the art of the diplomat is to create ladders down which people can climb. With respect to the noble and learned Lord, it seems to me that the law’s gain has been diplomacy’s loss, because a very elegant ladder has been presented to us here. The Attorney-General preserves his power but he accepts restrictions to it of the sort described by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby; namely, the 60-day limit—we will possibly need some clarification on that along the lines of what my noble friend Lady Stowell referred to—and on the comprehensive statement referred to in the second part of Amendment 6. When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and I discussed this, we noted that it was very important that “not in the public interest” could not be an explanation, because that took us back to where we are now. If the Minister accepts this, we will certainly want to explore with him exactly what a comprehensive statement would mean and how it would work.

I understand and think this is a very elegant mid-way, but it is half a loaf and not full-fat milk, if I may change the analogy. It does not address the central problem of a divided command and the fact that the Charity Commission is beholden to the Attorney-General. The Minister slightly reminds me of one of those subalterns on the Western Front in the First World War. He is in a very desperate position and has sent a message back to the chateau behind the lines saying, “It is pretty tricky out here.” They say, “No, no. You stay there and hold the position to the last man.”

I will pick up just a couple of the things the Minister said, but I will not detain the Committee long. He said that the issue of the Attorney-General did not really affect many of the commission’s objectives. That is not true. The commission’s objectives concern: first, public confidence, which is affected here; secondly, public benefit, which relates to the public schools case; thirdly, compliance, which relates to the Royal Albert Hall case; and, fourthly and fifthly, charitable authorities and accountability. I would argue that in at least three—possibly three and a half—of those, the Attorney-General would take an active interest in points referred to as a result.

I understand the second point about the Royal Albert Hall case being particularly complex, but every one of these cases will be complex. Cases on public schools, religion and poverty will be extremely complex and complicated. None of the things that will rise to the top in respect of the Charity Commission’s position will be easy, because they are difficult moral questions affecting all sorts of views about public values and the way our society operates. I therefore do not accept that the Royal Albert Hall case was particularly complex.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, four and a half years in, we do not have a decision. Is it a conflict to profit from the management of an organisation of which you are a trustee and so profit from the decisions you make? Should that be allowed? Since April 2017, the Charity Commission has been waiting to resolve that and the Royal Albert Hall is sailing on unaffected. Maybe that is right and reflects what the tribunal would find, but surely we need to get this resolved, in fairness to the Charity Commission and the sector.

I have gone on long enough today. This is an issue which remains thoroughly unsatisfactory in every way. We are a small group here today and I am not a member of the committee. I will withdraw the amendment, but I serve notice to the Minister that I reserve the right to bring it back when we come to the next stage of the Bill. I also look forward to hearing further about what the Government propose to do in response to the amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on this amendment. I am assuming I have understood it correctly—do not look at me like that, Lord Ponsonby! If I have, the amendment seeks to introduce a right of appeal to trustees, after they have arrived at a resolution on a decision. Under the proposals from the Law Commission, it requires that they go to the Charity Commission for formal approval or refusal. If I understand it, this amendment perpetuates the appeals process. That is in contrast to the Law Commission’s proposal, which is that, at the point that the approval is sought from the Charity Commission on a decision reached by the trustees, it is final. This introduces an extra level of appeal.

I offer a few thoughts on this because, quite often with smaller charities—we are talking about small amounts of money here—the underlying problem is a dispute between trustees. A lot of the commission’s time can be eaten up by disputes between trustees over quite small matters. The Law Commission was trying to remove that or force trustees, on these modest matters, to arrive at a decision on their own and take responsibility in the way they are required to and not, therefore, to allow an ongoing battle.

My fear is that if this appeal process is brought in, it would lend itself to those trustees who will never ever give up. That is why I caution against the amendment. I understand the intention behind it and it is of course well-intentioned, but it brings with it a burden that it might not have meant to. I counsel against it.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for tabling Amendment 7, the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for moving it, and those who raised this issue in the written and oral evidence that the Committee heard. By way of background, new Section 280A will create a new power for unincorporated charities to amend any provision in their governing documents. This brings the amendment powers available for unincorporated charities more in line with those for incorporated charities, supporting the Bill’s policy to create greater consistency for different legal forms of charities. In a similar vein, charitable incorporated organisations and charitable companies both have the right to appeal a decision by the Charity Commission to give or withhold consent to a request to make a regulated alteration to their governing documents.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

The Minister talked about appeal to the Charity Commission. One of the matters the Committee looked at in some detail was the time it took for those appeals to get processed and transacted. He said that he would look at that matter and at some stage report back to the Committee on how he feels we could improve the whole process and speed it up.

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[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I will come to that point.

In addition, new Section 280A repeals and replaces some sections that already carry a right of appeal in respect of Charity Commission decisions, namely Sections 268 and 265. It is therefore clear why the suggestion to give a similar appeal right to unincorporated charities has been put forward in respect of new Section 280A. However, making provision for a right of appeal for Charity Commission decisions under new Section 280A would, first, give unincorporated charities greater appeal rights than companies and charitable incorporated organisations as there are more types of regulated amendment and, secondly, expand unincorporated charities’ existing appeal rights under Schedule 6. Therefore, this is not a simple amendment to agree to and requires further consideration.

A different policy consideration is required for new Section 67A, inserted by Clause 7. Under new Section 67A, trustees will now be able to apply funds from a failed or surplus fundraising appeal for new purposes without Charity Commission consent unless the funds exceed £1,000. This modernises the regime and changes the nature of the Charity Commission’s jurisdiction in failed or surplus fundraising appeal cases.

In cases where Charity Commission consent is required, under this amendment an appeal to the tribunal would be possible if the commission refuses consent. Under the current framework, the commission may be asked to make a scheme to apply fundraising money for similar purposes. A decision not to make a scheme is not currently appealable to the tribunal.

Although it is appropriate for the commission to have a level of regulatory oversight for failed or surplus fundraising appeals being spent on different purposes, the context is different compared with the changing of a charity’s purposes. The general regulatory experience of the Charity Commission demonstrates that fundraising appeal cases are often contentious areas but lower risk in relation to the issues seen in the sector.

Internal charity disputes might occur where there is a disagreement over how money from a failed or surplus fundraising appeal should be used. As is often the case with disagreements, any result decided by the Charity Commission on how those funds should be used might result in one disgruntled party. Making a decision of the commission in relation to a trustees’ resolution under new Section 67A appealable to the tribunal might therefore open the commission up to challenge, time and cost in a way not commensurate to the benefit or risks. The most appropriate avenue of challenge in respect of these Charity Commission decisions might therefore be judicial review, which would be the default position if no new appeal right was listed in Schedule 6.

I would therefore like to take Amendment 7, in relation to the expansion of Schedule 6 appeal rights to cover new Sections 67A and 280A, away to give some more thought to the policy behind these proposed changes and their potential implications. I hope that, while we do, the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, will be willing to withdraw the amendment he moved on behalf of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton.

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Moved by

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

8: Clause 37, page 28, line 23, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
“(1) The Charities Act 2011 is amended as follows.(1A) In section 337 (other provisions as to orders of Commission)—”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential upon the amendment at page 28, line 31.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 8 to 12 in my name. I informed the Committee of these amendments at a private meeting on 20 October and wrote to the Committee following that meeting on 8 November. I will place a copy of that letter in the Library so that noble Lords who are not members of the Committee can see it.

I will speak first to Amendments 8 to 11, all of which are related. They make minor and technical changes to Sections 337 and 338 of the Charities Act 2011 to ensure that the policy intention of the Bill is achieved and that there is no misinterpretation of the law. Before this Committee started gathering evidence, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, met the Law Commission to discuss the Bill. During that meeting, he raised the issue that Amendments 8 to 11 address. We are grateful that he did so as it has enabled us to work with the Law Commission and the Charity Commission to bring forward these amendments to clarify the position.

Section 337 of the Charities Act 2011 currently gives the Charity Commission a discretionary power to give public notice or require public notice to be given when it makes an order under the Act. The Bill expands that discretionary power so that the Charity Commission can give public notice or require public notice to be given when it provides written consent under certain provisions of the Act. For example, where the Charity Commission is required to consent to the amendment of a charity’s purposes under new Section 280A, the Charity Commission could require the charity to give notice of its proposed change and invite comments from the public. The policy intention is that this public notice requirement may occur before the Charity Commission gives its consent so that it can consider any comments from the public when making its decision.

In its current form, the Bill does not make this as clear as it could be. Amendments 8 to 11 would make sure that this is expressed as clearly as possible. It is important to note that these amendments do not represent any change in the policy of the Bill or the Charities Act 2011; they are simply minor and technical clarifications to remove any chance of misinterpretation in these provisions. Once again, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the Committee for bringing this to our attention.

Amendment 12 would insert a new provision in Schedule 2 to the Bill, making a consequential amendment to the Cathedrals Measure 2021. That consequential amendment is considered appropriate as a result of the provisions in Clauses 10 and 12. Clause 10 makes changes to Section 282 of the Charities Act 2011, which allows charities to release permanent endowment, while Clause 12 creates a new power at Section 284A of that Act to allow charities to borrow from their permanent endowment, with thresholds set on the amount that can borrowed and the timeframe for paying those funds back.

We have been made aware that these provisions may circumvent the intentions of the Cathedrals Measure 2021, which was passed in April this year. That measure provides financial controls in relation to Church of England cathedrals and the funds held by such organisations. It also provides for cathedrals to be jointly regulated by the Church Commissioners and the Charity Commission. After seeing the provisions in the Charities Bill allowing charities to use their permanent endowment more flexibly, the Church Commissioners approached the Government and asked to make an amendment to place an additional safeguard in these two clauses on the use of these powers by Church of England cathedrals to resolve the potential inconsistency that would otherwise arise between the frameworks established in the two pieces of legislation.

Amendment 12 therefore provides that Church of England cathedrals must also seek the consent of the Church Commissioners when seeking to use the powers in relation to Clauses 10 and 12 to make use of their permanent endowment. As such, this amendment is in line with the wider arrangements already in place for the regulation of Church of England cathedrals’ funds, which includes the oversight of both the Charity Commission and the Church Commissioners. The Church of England has made it clear that it considers there to be advantages in maintaining the financial safeguards that were put in place by the Cathedrals Measure 2021, which sets out a regulatory framework that protects the valuable assets of Church of England cathedrals. We do not wish for the Charities Bill to undermine those safeguards.

I hope noble Lords will agree that Amendment 12 is appropriate to ensure consistency between the framework established by the Cathedrals Measure and that of wider charity law, and to ensure appropriate continued oversight in the regulation of Church of England cathedrals. I beg to move.

Amendment 8 agreed.

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Moved by

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

9: Clause 37, page 28, line 24, at end insert—
“(a) after subsection (2) insert—“(2A) Where an application is made for an order under this Act or the Commission proposes to make such an order, the Commission—(a) may itself give such public notice as it thinks fit of the contents of the order applied for or proposed to be made, or(b) may require it to be given by—(i) any person making an application for the order, or(ii) any charity that would be affected by the order.”;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes provision for public notice of the contents of an order applied for or as proposed to be made, including provision enabling the Charity Commission to require another to give public notice.

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Moved by

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

12: Schedule 2, page 36, line 18, at end insert—
“19A_ In section 24 of the Cathedrals Measure 2021 (No. 2) (investment powers, etc), after subsection (7) insert—“(7A) The members of the Chapter of a cathedral may not pass a resolution under—(a) section 282 of the Charities Act 2011 (resolution to spend larger fund), or(b) section 284A of that Act (power to borrow from permanent endowment),unless the Chapter has obtained the consent of the Church Commissioners.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment of the Cathedrals Measure 2021 relates to clauses 10 and 12 and requires a cathedral chapter to secure the consent of the Church Commissioners before resolving under section 282 to spend part of a larger endowment fund or under section 284A to borrow from permanent endowment, as a chapter must for similar matters under that Measure.

Channel 4: Consultation

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lady Bonham-Carter, and at her request, I beg to move the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, the consultation on the potential change in ownership of Channel 4 received around 60,000 responses. We are grateful for the public’s engagement on this matter and, indeed, for the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, and her Liberal Democrat colleagues. We are now working hard to analyse every response and to ensure that all evidence feeds into any final decision.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, is there not a lot of evidence that the overwhelming response, particularly from those with individual or organisational experience of the collective creative industries, was to warn against the privatisation of Channel 4? Will the Minister publish the advice that the department has received and, once he has analysed and considered it, would it not be a good idea to drop this piece of ideological vandalism?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord is rather getting ahead of the process. No decision has been taken yet and we are carefully processing all the responses received. The consultation ran from 6 July to 14 September; as I said, it received around 60,000 responses, including more than 100 from the industry, all of which will be carefully analysed before any decisions are made.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, independent analysis from Ernst & Young, which explored potential business models and remits for a privatised Channel 4, suggested that any change could significantly reduce the organisation’s economic contribution in the supply chain, with the effects felt disproportionately north of the M25. The Government claim they want to level up, but time and again their action has knocked down the UK’s nations and regions, rather than giving them a boost. Can the Minister tell us what in-house analysis the Government are undertaking, and whether the Government’s findings are consistent with Ernst & Young’s? Will they publish their analysis along with the results of the consultation?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord mentions the work done by Ernst & Young. Our analysts, UKGI, and our corporate finance advisers, JP Morgan, take a different view and that is why we are taking a range of views on the suggestions. On the work that Channel 4 does across the United Kingdom, I say simply that Channel 4’s strengths in this regard are to be celebrated and maintained, and that is not at odds with private investment; in fact, Channel 4’s access to networks outside London and its ability to speak to such a diverse range of audiences are likely to be attractive assets to nurture and develop for any potential buyer, if that is the route we go down.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, there is a meme of the moment that Channel 4 and, indeed, the BBC are being marginalised by the awesome economic power of Netflix. Does the Minister accept that Netflix’s programme proposition, though wholly admirable, bears no relationship whatever to the breadth of the public service propositions offered by both Channel 4 and the BBC? Moreover, will the Minister remind his department that in terms of hours of consumption per adult per week, far from being marginalised, the BBC enjoys six times the consumption of Netflix, and that Channel 4 is level-pegging?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord speaks with great experience of the sector. I am about the same age as Channel 4; the environment in which it was launched in 1982 was very different from the environment now. The Government should never stand still when it comes to ensuring the success of our public service broadcasters and the growth of competitors such as Netflix, as the noble Lord mentioned. That is why it is appropriate to reflect on Channel 4’s future and consider whether the current model gives it the best chance to succeed in the new environment as we seek to ensure that it is set up for success for decades to come.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

I declare an interest as a board member of Creative Scotland. For producers in Scotland, Channel 4 is a key buyer. Regional independent production companies have said very clearly that they believe that the privatisation of Channel 4 will cause great harm to their businesses. What evidence does the Minister have that they are wrong and what reassurances can he give them for their future?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Channel 4’s access to networks outside London and its work with independent producers right across the UK are likely to be attractive assets that any potential buyer would nurture and develop. Whatever decision we take, however, will not compromise the Government’s commitment to the independent production industry. That is why we have consulted on these issues and are working through the responses to inform our decision-making.

[Lord Fowler (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and indeed to everyone else who has spoken so far. I gently point out that privatisation has often been to the benefit of the public and the organisations being privatised. In the first privatisations of the Thatcher years, in which I was involved, we achieved the first employee buyout of a major company and the ability of British companies, who were starved of cash, to get the resources necessary to expand. Surely the important challenge for the Government is for them to give an assurance that their priority is to develop Channel 4 rather than simply to raise money.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that important point. Channel 4 is uniquely constrained in its ability to meet the challenges facing the media landscape today; in comparison with other public service broadcasters, its access to capital is highly constrained. That is why we are looking at reform to protect Channel 4’s long-term future, so that it can continue to be a valued public service broadcaster, serving audiences with great public service content for years to come.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister agree that Channel 4 is not just any old media company but rather a sui generis British institution established by Act of Parliament—a hub at the centre of networks reaching out deep into broadcasting and the digital world, the creative industries, skills, minorities, the regions, entrepreneurialism and culture?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Yes, and Channel 4’s inherent characteristics are also its strengths: its ability to make distinctive content, its work with independent producers and, in turn, its ability to attract diverse audiences. However, those strengths are not at odds with private ownership. They are things that we think would be attractive to potential buyers, things that they would seek to nurture and strengthen. We do not think that there is a false choice between public service remit and privatisation. As the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, pointed out, it is possible to have both.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, Channel 4 is not everybody’s cup of tea, including, I suspect, many in the Conservative Party. Some also say that there is an overabundance of reality TV programmes. There were major faults with the subtitles, which are essential to certain viewers. However, does the Minister agree that the flagship Channel 4 news output, which goes out at 7 pm and is repeated at 8 pm, headed up by the veteran anchorman Jon Snow, the inimitable Matt Frei, the incomparable Krishnan Guru-Murthy and the professional Cathy Newman, is essential viewing for those who do not get home in time for the 6 o’clock news? Can the Minister use his undoubted influence to ensure that this essential contribution to cutting-edge journalism continues?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the Government want Channel 4 to succeed as a public service broadcaster, and all PSBs are required to broadcast news. They are regulated under Ofcom’s Broadcasting Code, which ensures that all the news is reported with due impartiality and accuracy. That would not change under private ownership. Our consultation document sets out our current view that Channel 4’s existing obligations relating to news and current affairs provision should be broadly retained in any potential reform.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, for the sake of perhaps as little as £500 million, after you have netted off adviser and transaction fees, does the Minister feel that the risk/reward equation stacks up for privatising when we take into account the potential disruption to thousands of jobs, not just within Channel 4 but across hundreds of small independent producers spread across the country? I repeat the question: levelling up or levelling down?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Again, the noble Lord slightly pre-empts our response to the consultation. A range of views have been made in it and that is why we held it. As I said previously, whatever decision we take will not compromise the Government’s commitment to the independent production sector and to the wider creative economy. I am glad to say that the independent production sector is now flourishing and increasingly less reliant on income from UK public service broadcasters, but these are the very issues that we are taking into account as we look at the consultation and the responses that we received.