Bloody Sunday Inquiry (Report)

Lord Swire Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Eric Joyce]

I thank my hon. Friend and take note of what he says. I take pleasure in agreeing with his comments about our right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen. Much has been said during the debate about future inquiries. Labour Members recognise that there will be a demand for them, although we have to bear in mind the important cost implications. Of course, we think that the Government should come back to us on this issue. I think that many people take that general view. Although some want to move ahead without inquiries, Labour Members do not fully agree with that, although we understand the sentiment of the argument.

The Select Committee Chairman, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), was the Opposition spokesman when the present Government were in opposition. He noted that many people assumed in the first instance that the Saville inquiry would take only a year or two. He also noted that the original assumption was that it would cost about £11 million, of which £1 million would be for lawyers. I do not know exactly how much of a lawyer we get for £1 million, but it was certainly not as much as proved necessary for the Saville inquiry. The hon. Gentleman rightly drew attention to the eventual cost for lawyers as more than £100 million. He reminded us of the tragic dimension of the waste of human lives on all sides, and noted how wider lessons can be learned by other parts of the world. He referred to the visit last week by Rwandan politicians to his constituency and then to Belfast. I had the privilege of meeting those very same people. This is indicative of the fact that, at some stage, people can learn wider lessons from what happened in Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) told the House about what I view, frankly, as a shocking experience; it is certainly outwith the experience of most Members, other than those representing Northern Ireland. He mentioned what happened through a Facebook site. He reminded us of some of the IRA’s early victims, including the first soldier to die in Derry. The hon. Gentleman complained that Lord Saville did not fully contextualise the circumstances of the day. He told us that “murder, mayhem and terror” were “rife” and referred to the fact that two police officers were murdered only days before one was buried on the day of Bloody Sunday itself. He took the view that further inquiries would not lead to progress.

The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) praised the former Prime Ministers John Major and Tony Blair for their role in establishing the inquiry. She welcomed the Prime Minister’s statement of apology, which she described as a great comfort to the families, to people throughout Northern Ireland, and to people in the south. I believe that it was also a comfort to people in Scotland, England and Wales. The hon. Lady mentioned other cases, including those of Rosemary Nelson, McGurk’s bar and Ballymurphy, and called for the innocence of those killed unlawfully to be properly declared in future. She supported the call of many other Members for further inquiries where appropriate.

The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) is probably the only Member who was serving in Northern Ireland at the time. He has a prestigious military record and has commanded a regiment, which is important in the context of today’s debate. For that reason, his words bore a particular significance. He described the shortcomings of kit and training in the early years of British Army deployment in Northern Ireland. He praised his regimental colleagues, and said that Bloody Sunday was both a disgrace and an aberration. He rightly described it as a terrible failure at the level of battalion command.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) made the important point that justice would be seen and interpreted in different ways by different people. He counselled against measuring the success or otherwise of inquiries simply in terms of time or money.

The hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer)—like his hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham—has a long and prestigious military record, and, crucially, has also commanded a regiment. He had some specific comments to make about the commanding officer on Bloody Sunday. He made particular criticism of Colonel Derek Wilford, the commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, the Parachute Regiment, and referred to an interview that he conducted with him on the BBC’s “Today” programme. I remember that interview very well. I believe it took place in 1999.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

The hon. Gentleman is too young to remember it.

[Eric Joyce]

I think that I am slightly older than the hon. Gentleman, so that is very nice of him.

I recall the interview vividly. The hon. Member for Newark, who was working as a journalist on “Today”, had persuaded Colonel Wilford to appear on the programme. It was staggering that, after all those years and after everyone’s questions about Widgery, he did not regret anything for a moment. That was the most astonishing and disgraceful thing that one could possibly imagine, and it has stuck in my mind through the years. It is true that we did not know then what we know now, but it was a remarkable interview none the less, and I remember the hon. Member for Newark’s part in it very well.

The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) strongly welcomed the outcome of the report on behalf of all the families affected. He condemned the Widgery report as essentially part of a propaganda war. He also condemned those who had been guilty of paramilitary violence over the years. He criticised the Saville cost overrun, and, like other Members, referred particularly to lawyers’ fees. He also echoed other Members in saying that something was amiss—I am putting it mildly—in respect of command and control in the Parachute Regiment. I believe that that is widely accepted today.

The hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) made a moving speech describing his own experience of serving in Northern Ireland as a private soldier with the Duke of Wellington’s Regiment. He reminded us of the sacrifice made by British Army troops over the years, and stressed that although Bloody Sunday besmirched the reputation of the Army, Support Company of the Parachute Regiment on that day did not represent the standards of the Army as a whole then or, in particular, since then. I think that we can all agree with that.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said that he strongly supported the peace process, but criticised the cost of the inquiry. He felt that many would think the outcome a political gesture, and said that there had been no justice for the workmen killed at Bessbrook, or for his cousin, a serving UDR officer, and his colleague, who were killed on the same day and at the same time by the Provisional IRA. I think it fair to say that the essence of the hon. Gentleman’s argument was that the inquiry process as a whole—including the Saville inquiry and any putative future inquiries—was one-sided by its very nature.

The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) read, memorably, a sombre roll-call of those who were injured and killed on Bloody Sunday, and asked what would happen in terms of follow-through in relation to issues such as possible perjury, other possible prosecutions, and lessons learned at the Northern Ireland Office and the Ministry of Defence. He specifically spoke about the Parachute Regiment at the time of Bloody Sunday. He said the Saville report left questions unanswered and he asked if Colonel Wilford could be stripped of his OBE. I have heard serving officers ask the same question, although it is not necessarily what everyone would want; different people have different opinions, and these events seem a long time ago now. I had understood until very recently—yesterday in fact—that Colonel Wilford had died. That was reported on the BBC, but apparently when he died he only went to Belgium. I have been to Belgium and it is not such a bad place. He is still alive and well therefore, and he can readily be stripped of his OBE if people think that is appropriate. That is a matter for others, however.

The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) noted the sacrifices made by British troops in Northern Ireland over the years, and the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) felt lawyers should not charge full fees and we should keep down the costs of such inquiries. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) felt the Widgery inquiry had been profoundly weak because of Widgery’s own experiences at the time and the assumptions he would have had and would have brought with him to his inquiry. He also praised the Saville inquiry unreservedly, apart from a technical reservation or two.

My right hon. Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston and others asked a number of questions. Those questions do not raise doubts about the great value of the Saville inquiry report; that goes without saying. I think we all agree about its great value; the families certainly do, as do the people of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. However, some important matters follow on from the report. Perhaps chief among them are questions about holding other inquiries, including on Finucane. I hope the Minister will be able to say in his reply to the debate when progress will be made in coming to decisions on those matters.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

This has been an extremely welcome and well-informed debate, which has honoured the commitment given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that the House would have an opportunity to debate this important report in detail. I would like to start by recording my gratitude for the supportive words of the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward), and the new shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce), on the Government’s response to this report. I also welcome the right hon. Gentleman back to his role, and in particular I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment as shadow Minister, a post which I am sure he will enjoy very much.

It is important that we approach these very sensitive issues in a bipartisan manner, and I am sure we can rely on the Opposition spokesmen to continue to do so. Having said that, however, their words this afternoon might have carried greater generosity if they had acknowledged the work done in the peace process by John Major and the Conservative party. Next week is, of course, the 25th anniversary of the signing of the Anglo-Irish agreement.

[Chris Ruane]

rose—

[Mr Swire]

I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman as he did not speak in the debate and I must make progress.

The right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and the hon. Members for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and for Foyle (Mark Durkan) raised the issue of prosecutions. I remind them that prosecutions are not a matter for government. It is for the independent prosecution authorities to consider such issues. It would be completely inappropriate for the Government to intervene by pressurising the prosecution service to provide a deadline. That would clearly compromise the independence of the process.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the lessons learned by the Army. As the Chief of the Defence Staff said in the light of Lord Saville’s report, the way the Army is trained, the way it works and the way it operates have all changed significantly, and we should not forget that during the 38 years of Operation Banner in Northern Ireland the majority of the military who took part in that operation, often on several tours, did so with professionalism and restraint.

In response to comments by the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Members for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and for Foyle, I can confirm that, having considered the views expressed in this debate and the debate in the other place, my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland and for Defence will shortly write to the Prime Minister on issues arising from the report. A copy of the letter will be placed in the Library of the House.

The right hon. Members for St Helens South and Whiston and for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), and the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West raised the issue of dealing with the past. This Government promptly published the summary of responses to the Eames-Bradley report in July this year—if I may say so, that was perhaps in contrast to the previous Secretary of State, who now criticises us for inaction despite sitting on the responses for many months prior to the general election. I wish to put on the record my thanks to the noble and right reverend Lord Eames, to Denis Bradley and to the other members of the group.

[Mr Woodward]

Just for the record, I would advise the Minister to look a little more closely at the reasons why we did not publish the responses to the public consultation. We did not do so precisely because it was more sensible to await the publication of Lord Saville’s report, as it would then be possible to make a sensible decision on how to proceed when one can hold the two together. If the Minister pleads for bipartisan support, he should avoid cheap political point scoring in this debate.

[Mr Swire]

The shadow Secretary of State is at least consistent in so much as he received the responses back in October 2009. I was perhaps trying to draw attention to the rapid progress we have made on many fronts since taking office, given that we were accused earlier in the debate of stalling on so many of these issues.

The Eames-Bradley report was a significant piece of work that has made an important contribution to the debate on dealing with the past. The responses to the report we published did, however, show the current lack of consensus on any wider process. But we have continued to listen to the views of victims and organisations from across the community to find a way forward. There is no question of the Government attempting to close down the past. We will continue to be measured and sensitive in our approach. As we continue to engage on the potential for wider mechanisms, we should also acknowledge the ongoing work to address the legacy of the past. I pay tribute in particular to the work of the Historical Enquiries Team, which has achieved very high satisfaction rates among families who have received reports. I say to the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) that it is not for the Government to alter the HET’s remit.

The right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and the right hon. Member for Torfaen, himself a distinguished former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, raised the Finucane case. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be meeting the Finucane family very shortly, and it is right that we talk to the family in the first instance, before commenting publicly.

A number of hon. Members made important points about the distinguished service of the vast majority of soldiers who served in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friends the Members for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) and for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), in a particularly passionate and moving speech, made their personal experiences come to life. They described the difficult and often frightening circumstances in which we asked our young soldiers—some very young—to serve, sometimes woefully underprepared, in Northern Ireland during the troubles. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), in a very good speech, was right to remind us of the tragic murders by terrorists of two Members of this House, Airey Neave and Ian Gow.

The Government are clear that Bloody Sunday is not the defining story of the Army’s service in Northern Ireland. We should not forget, and we will never forget, that more than 1,000 members of the security forces lost their lives, and many thousands more were injured, in upholding democracy and the rule of law in Northern Ireland. I recently met a number of ex-servicemen and heard for myself their continuing trauma and suffering. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in his opening statement and as was reiterated by my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), we owe an immense debt of gratitude to all those who served in the security forces.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston North and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) highlighted the importance of bringing closure to the families of those killed by terrorists. The HET is investigating all 3,268 cases from the troubles, including the deaths of police officers and soldiers killed by terrorists. The Government strongly support the HET’s important work and the vital work of community and victims’ groups in providing help and support to the victims of the troubles.

A number of hon. Members, notably my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the distinguished Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, on which I once had the honour to serve, and perhaps coincidentally, other members of his Committee, were critical of the cost of the report. Of course, as we heard this afternoon, no one could have anticipated that the inquiry would take 12 years or cost more than £191 million. Our views on that are by now well known and well documented.

The Government have been clear that there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries, but on taking office we separated our views on the process from the substance of the report’s findings. It was right that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister took responsibility, on behalf of the Government, in responding to Lord Saville’s clear and shocking findings.

The hon. Member for South Down mentioned public inquiries. The Government have been clear, as I said, that there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries. This is not an issue solely about public finances. Selecting a small number of legacy cases to be the subject of public inquiries creates an uneven process that cannot adequately address the legacy of a conflict that resulted in more than 3,500 deaths.

With reference to the report, the state must always be determined to hold itself to account. We should never judge ourselves by the same standards as terrorists. The Government are clear that we do not uphold the honour of all those who served with such bravery and professionalism in Northern Ireland by hiding from the truth or by defending the indefensible.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) spoke about the context of the events of Bloody Sunday. I was slightly perplexed by this point. I should point out to him that Lord Saville covers the events leading up to Bloody Sunday in great detail in volume 1 of the report. I recommend reading those chapters, if right hon. and hon. Members are not tempted to read the rest, because they provide the clearest insight to the events in Northern Ireland surrounding internment and the events on Bloody Sunday. That was well précised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips).

The hon. Members for East Londonderry, for Strangford and for Upper Bann (David Simpson) raised the conclusions relating to Martin McGuinness. It is for Mr McGuinness to answer questions about the findings relating to him. The report is clear in its conclusions about him. It specifically finds that he was present and probably armed with a

“sub-machine gun”,

but states that

“we are sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.”

The Government are clear that there was never any justification for the brutal campaigns waged by terrorists. As the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) said, there is no justification, nor can there be, for the actions of residual terrorist groups trying to drag Northern Ireland back to the past.

The hon. Members for South Down and for Strangford were among those who mentioned Ballymurphy. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I met the Ballymurphy families last month. Their stories were powerful and moving, and we both expressed our sympathy for their loss. We continue to encourage the families to co-operate with the ongoing HET investigation into the case. The HET is completely independent of the Government. I understand that the families recently made representations to the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland on the re-opening of inquests.

The hon. Member for Foyle made a typically powerful, solemn and heartfelt speech in which he paid solemn tribute to those who were killed and injured on Bloody Sunday. I thank him again for his comments on my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s statement and pay tribute to him for the support and encouragement that he has provided to the families over the years as a hard-working constituency MP.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct to point out the shocking conclusions in the report. Lord Saville’s report speaks for itself. In relation to the hon. Gentleman’s point about the victims, let me reiterate what Lord Saville concluded. He said that

“none of the casualties was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury, or indeed was doing anything else that could on any view justify their shooting.”

The hon. Gentleman raised the matter of the removal of an honour given to Lieutenant Colonel Wilford. That would be a matter for the Ministry of Defence in the first instance and ultimately for the honours forfeiture committee, but I understand that honours are not normally rescinded unless the person concerned has been sentenced to imprisonment after conviction in a criminal court or formally censured by a regulatory body.

The hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of compensation. I know that there are a range of different views among victims of the troubles about financial payments. I understand that the victims commissioners are conducting a wide examination of victims’ needs and how best to address them, including the issue of compensation.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann raised the role of the Irish Government. The actions of the Irish Government are of course a matter for them, but I would draw hon. Members’ attention to the Taoiseach’s commitment to contribute to a reconciliation process. I welcome that commitment, as I do the very close relationship that we have with the Government in Dublin.

[Mark Durkan]

Will the Minister acknowledge that Irish Governments have successively, no matter what party was in government—not just the current Taoiseach but previous Taoisigh and Ministers for Foreign Affairs—provided particular support to the Bloody Sunday families? A dossier submitted by the Irish Government helped to lead to the establishment of the inquiry and the current Minister for Foreign Affairs has been particularly supportive. He is particularly in the thoughts of the families this week given the personal and family grief that he is going through, as he buried his young daughter yesterday.

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman is right, and our heart goes out to him. The Secretary of State and I have written to him at this ghastly time.

Let me conclude by reiterating the Government’s unambiguous position on this report. What happened on Bloody Sunday was unjustified and unjustifiable. The Government are deeply sorry for what happened. The wider challenge that we all face is to ensure that the past is dealt with in a sensitive manner that allows Northern Ireland to move forward to a genuinely shared future.

I am sure the whole House will join me in acknowledging the enormous strides forward that Northern Ireland has taken. As we look back on the terrible events of 38 years ago, we must be thankful that Northern Ireland is now a very different place, but, as some right hon. and hon. Members pointed out, challenges still remain. The Government are determined to play our part in helping to ensure that the future for Northern Ireland is one which is peaceful and based on trust and confidence across the community.

I hope that Lord Saville’s report has, to use a quote adopted by the families, set the truth free. In doing so, it has helped to bring to a close a painful chapter in Northern Ireland’s troubled past. Let me finish by reiterating the words of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister:

“Northern Ireland has been transformed over the past 20 years and all of us in Westminster and Stormont must continue that work of change, coming together with all the people of Northern Ireland, to build a stable, peaceful, prosperous and shared future.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 742.]

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of the Report of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry.

Terrorism (Northern Ireland)

Lord Swire Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) on securing this debate. No one can have failed to be moved by what he said. I acknowledge the loss that he has suffered with the murder of members of his family, and the horrible scenes to which he has borne witness. My sympathy and, I am sure, the sympathy of the whole House, is with him.

In the time left to me, I will try to answer all the questions that right hon. and hon. Members have asked me. I recognise and empathise with the suffering of all victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland. The list of innocent victims read out was a salutary reminder of the horrors and injustices of the past. What struck me more than almost anything else is how many of them were young and were cut off before they reached adulthood.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in his statement to the House on 15 June, we should never forget that the overwhelming majority of those who lost their lives in Northern Ireland—some estimate nearly 90%—were killed by terrorists. The brutal terrorist campaigns waged by republican and loyalist paramilitaries caused enormous suffering, whose lasting impact I do not forget, but I remain firmly of the view that there was and is no justification for politically motivated violence. I want to make it clear that the Government absolutely condemn the terrorist crimes that have been committed.

The hon. Member for South Antrim raised a number of important points about Government policy in relation to victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland. He is right to emphasise the importance of addressing victims’ continuing needs. As a UK Minister, I am mindful of the need to recognise that a number of important powers relating to victims’ issues have been devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Our considered response to the Bloody Sunday inquiry report demonstrates that, for our part, the Government take seriously our responsibilities on the past, but I am firmly of the view that dealing with the past cannot be a matter for the UK Government alone. As the victims commissioners said, an effective approach to the past will be based on political and civic consensus.

To answer the question asked by the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), about the Government’s approach to future inquiries, I can only concur with Justice Minister David Ford, who said:

“We cannot have a Saville-type inquiry for all the tragedies of the past, but the fundamental matter of dealing with the past is something which has to be dealt with collectively by the Executive.”

The shadow Minister also compared the Bloody Sunday inquiry to cases involving other victims. To respond to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), the Prime Minister made it clear in his speech at La Mon House during the general election campaign, and again in his statement on Saville, that no Government he leads will ever put those who uphold democracy and the rule of law on an equivalent footing with those who have sought to destroy it. We will also not be party to a rewrite of history that seeks to give a spurious legitimacy to terrorist campaigns on all sides. I am clear that the state must be determined to judge itself against the highest standards. In relation to the Bloody Sunday inquiry report, the Prime Minister demonstrated how that had to be true and how the state’s standards had to be higher than those elsewhere. It is important that the Government continue to emphasise the crucial distinction between the state’s response to wrongdoing, and the actions and responses of terrorists.

The hon. Member for South Antrim is, of course, right to note that the public inquiries that are under way have proved very costly. The Government are clear that there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries. However, our views on the process followed for such inquiries should not detract from the need to consider the substance of their reports when they are published.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley and the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) raised the work of the Historical Enquiries Team. The Government have been strongly supportive of the HET, which is investigating 3,261 deaths in the period 1968 to 1998, including deaths from all sides of the community. I understand that the HET has completed 782 reviews relating to cases involving 1,007 victims.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley and the shadow Minister raised the issue of funding for the HET. They will know that responsibility for directly funding the HET now lies with the devolved Administration. However, the Government have made a substantial financial package available to the Northern Ireland Executive to deal with these issues. Despite the pressure on finances, we have honoured the commitments we gave in opposition on the matter. The Government have not directly specified—nor should they—that the Executive should make funds available to the HET or, indeed, to the police ombudsman. That is properly a matter for the Justice Minister and the Executive to decide on. However, the financial package that the Government have provided enables the Justice Minister and the Executive, despite the huge pressure on the public finances, to continue to ensure that such important work has the funding it requires.

On addressing the needs of victims more generally, I welcome the work being done by the First and Deputy First Ministers, the victims’ commissioners and the victims’ forum. Some positive steps in the right direction include the strategy for victims and survivors—published last November—the comprehensive needs assessment being undertaken by the victims’ commission, and the plan to introduce a new victims and survivors service next year. I am very much aware of the role played by voluntary and community groups on the ground in Northern Ireland. As I am sure we would all agree, their work in supporting victims and promoting reconciliation is crucial. I agree with the victims’ commissioner’s view that we must build “from the ground up” when considering how best to deal with the past in Northern Ireland.

A number of issues raised by the hon. Member for South Antrim relate to the broader question of how best to deal with the past in Northern Ireland. I reiterate my view that there is no question of the Government imposing solutions on Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I intend to listen to the views of people from across the community on dealing with the past in Northern Ireland. That listening process will be important in helping to determine the role that the UK Government can play.

I also want to reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State and I intend to meet victims and groups from both sides of the community to listen to their views. He has specifically raised a number of cases involving murders committed by republican terrorists. I fully recognise that the memories of those atrocities remain raw for many people in his community. I reassure him that I agree with the point made by the victims’ commissioners that the past cannot be dealt with in a way that holds only the state accountable. The commissioners have identified a number of cases that they note retain iconic significance for the Unionist community. I recognise that that is an important point, and I stress to the hon. Gentleman that the Government will approach the legacy of the past in a measured and impartial manner. It is important that any approach to the past does not seek to favour, or is not perceived as favouring, any particular section of the community.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann raised a specific question about the past role of the Irish Government. It is of course for the Irish Government to respond directly to specific allegations relating to their past role. However, I recognise the importance of involving the Irish Government in discussions on how best to deal with the legacy of the past. The hon. Gentleman will want to know that the Secretary of State has already had a series of meetings with the Irish Government, and that I will be travelling there shortly. In the Taoiseach’s statement to the Dail last week, he noted that the Irish Government would continue to work with the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive on contributing to the healing process in Northern Ireland. I welcome that commitment.

Before I conclude, I shall address some of the points raised during the debate. The shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East, asked for an update on progress with the Wright, Nelson and Hamill inquiries. We expect all those inquiries to publish their findings by the end of this year, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will today lay a written statement on the pre-publication process for the Billy Wright inquiry report. Other inquiries will follow a similar process, with a written ministerial statement.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether the Attorney-General had reopened any inquests and what their costs will be. He will understand that in Northern Ireland, the new Attorney-General has exercised his powers in that regard. With devolution of justice powers, issues such as the cost of specific inquests should now be addressed to the Justice Minister, David Ford. The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the Finucane inquiry, and I can tell him that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has written to the family and offered to meet them. I know he is very keen for that meeting to take place as soon as is practicable. On Ballymurphy, again, the Secretary of State has met the Ballymurphy families and intends to do so again in the very near future.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann raised the issue of the security file and Gerry Adams. Regarding the publication of any security information held by the Government, he will know that it has been the long-standing policy of successive Governments never to comment on security matters. The hon. Gentleman asked me to meet the victims, and I would of course be happy to meet him and any of the victims he mentioned in his speech. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already met many victims’ groups and will continue to do so.

Today’s debate has been on the Government’s policy on the victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland, and in the time available to me I have tried to show that we do not believe that it is just for the UK Government to impose such a policy on the people of Northern Ireland. If it is to succeed, it must be done in co-operation with the Northern Ireland Executive and, at times, the Irish Government. However, crucially, such a policy can provide some of the answers to the questions we have discussed this morning only if it is done by the people of Northern Ireland—the people who have suffered in the ways we have heard about this morning. I was particularly struck by what the hon. Member for Upper Bann said about wanting our children to have a better future than their parents did. I can think of no better way to end the debate than with a note of cautious optimism. With devolution now working in Northern Ireland, we can all—those of us who have responsibility—work together to make Northern Ireland a better place in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Swire Excerpts

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

7. What recent assessment he has made of levels of dissident paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

The threat level in Northern Ireland remains at severe, but the security forces continue to bear down on this small number of criminals. So far this year there have been 121 arrests and 30 charges brought, which compares with 106 arrests and 17 charges brought in the whole of 2009.

[Mr Wright]

I thank the Minister for his response. In the light of the Independent Monitoring Commission’s report, the increase in the activity of a small band of dissident republicans and, in particular, the worrying use of car bombs, will he consider continuing the previous Government’s practice of providing additional funds from the reserves to tackle terrorism?

[Mr Swire]

We did, of course, endorse that approach and, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we wrote the most open-dated cheque in supporting the previous Government’s moves in that direction before the general election. In my opening remarks, I referred to the level of activity among those who reject the peace process and who have, in effect, turned their backs on it. I do not wish to distinguish them by calling them “dissident republicans” because I believe that that gives them a status that they do not deserve. I believe that the security services, particularly the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the Department of Justice in Belfast, which is headed by David Ford, and crucially, the Garda in the Republic of Ireland, are working extremely carefully and closely together to try to prevent these atrocities from happening on a more regular basis.

[David Simpson]

The Minister will be aware that in recent days a 300 lb bomb and a 160 lb bomb have been planted in Northern Ireland by these so-called “dissidents”. Further to the previous question, may I ask whether he will give assurances to this House today and to the people who live in the area where these bombs were put that we will get whatever resources are needed, be they financial or manpower?

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman’s constituency had the pipe bomb in the grounds of the Brownlow PSNI station on 18 June and the tragic and unacceptable murder of Constable Stephen Carroll by the Continuity IRA. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that we support any bid by the PSNI for additional resources, and we will make representations to the Treasury as and when necessary, because the security of innocent individuals in Northern Ireland should be paramount in everything we seek to do.

[Mr Hanson]

Does the Minister agree that this is not just about the threat of bombs and dissident activity but about the fact that many dissidents in Northern Ireland—as I know from my experience as a Minister there for some time—are involved in criminal activity? Even today, we have seen reports of criminal gangs and prostitution run by dissident paramilitaries. Will he ensure that resources are available not only to tackle the emergency situation but to deal with the long-term security and crime issues that impact on the community across the Province?

[Mr Swire]

Indeed. Things have changed since the right hon. Gentleman was in Northern Ireland and, of course, crime issues that are without any kind of terrorist connotation are a matter for the Department of Justice, David Ford and the PSNI. Of course, we will provide all the resources that are needed. I cannot stress enough the close co-operation we have with the Garda on cross-border issues. I am delighted to make an announcement today on one of the things for which we have been lobbied by the PSNI—an automatic number plate reading device that will cost £12.9 million. The Secretary of State has been lobbying the Treasury since he took office and I am delighted to be able to announce to the House this morning that we have that funding for the PSNI. That will be a useful device in its continuing battle against those who would commit crime.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

May I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and the Secretary of State on their appointments and wish them well in Northern Ireland? Further to previous questions, may I ask what discussions have taken place between the Government, the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland on access to the security fund?

[Mr Swire]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his elevation to the Privy Council. We have regular meetings, both on a statutory basis and on an informal basis, with David Ford, the Chief Constable and others in Northern Ireland. We listen to the requests that they make for access to the funds, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests, but I think that they will be heartened by the news that when they asked us for something during the first few weeks of our being in power, we delivered.

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response and congratulate him on his announcement today. Given that he is now off to a good start, I hope that he can continue with that. On the wider issue of resources, will he give us an assurance? Given the amount of powers that are devolved to Northern Ireland, one of his main tasks will be, along with his colleague the Secretary of State, to fight the Treasury for funds for Northern Ireland. He will be judged on that, so will he give a commitment that he is fighting on that front, too?

[Mr Swire]

The right hon. Gentleman will know that we do not have to fight with the Treasury, because in the Treasury are our dear and trusted colleagues. Whenever we have asked them for anything, they have delivered— although I would concede that that has happened only once to date. Without being particularly partisan against Labour Members, I refer the right hon. Gentleman back to the outgoing Chief Secretary’s remark that “There is no money.” This is a very tight fiscal round and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State and I will make representations to the Treasury when asked to do so on behalf of the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and the Secretary of State on their appointments. Does the Minister agree that one way in which paramilitary activity can start to be countered is if there is co-operation between people in all sections of the communities in each of these areas? Is the Minister satisfied that sufficient progress is being made in that respect?

[Mr Swire]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on being appointed Chair of the Select Committee. I hope that that is one issue that the newly formed Select Committee will consider. Of course, he is right, particularly in the light of the Saville report on Bloody Sunday when, for many people, we finally got the truth of what happened on that dreadful day. It is incumbent on everyone in Northern Ireland to come forward and tell the truth. It is only through the truth being told that we can get reconciliation and allow Northern Ireland to move on in the way that everybody in this House would wish it to.

[Mr Speaker]

We need to make somewhat faster progress.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to his post and wish him genuinely warm good wishes in his responsibilities. I also welcome the very good news that he and the Secretary of State have secured this additional £12 million from the reserve. That is vital funding and I congratulate them on obtaining it. I am sure that he will agree that the Independent Monitoring Commission has played a vital role in the political process and in the peace process in Northern Ireland. Now that devolution is complete, what role does he envisage for the IMC in the future?

[Mr Swire]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and I have heard nothing but good about his time in Northern Ireland as a Minister. He is a hard act to follow. To keep my answer short, in line with what you have just suggested, Mr Speaker, the IMC has, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, performed a sterling service. We and the Irish Government keep the continuing need for it under review.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

4. What his policy is on holding further public inquiries into events involving deaths which took place during the troubles in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

9. When the Government plan to publish their response to the consultation on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

I intend to publish a summary of responses to the consultation on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland shortly.

[Maria Eagle]

I thank the Minister for that illuminating reply. Before the election, the Secretary of State expressed scepticism about legislating for a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights, but does the Minister accept, now that he is in office, that as there was a solemn commitment to doing so, and as that was part of the Belfast agreement, it would present difficulties in the peace process if he were to renege on that commitment now?

[Mr Swire]

I do not think that there is any question of reneging. The fact is that the world has moved on; we now have a coalition Government who are committed to looking into a UK-wide Bill of Rights. Of course we remain committed to fulfilling the commitments in the Good Friday agreement, and we are considering the best way of doing that within the architecture of a UK-wide commission. We genuinely believe that if we are to have a UK-wide Bill of Rights, the people of Northern Ireland are best represented within that, rather than by any stand-alone sideshow.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

10. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister on the level of security threat in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

As I said in answer to previous questions, the threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe.

[Mr Campbell]

The Minister will be aware that in north-west Northern Ireland, more pipe bombs were exploded or defused in the first five months of this year than in the entire 12 months of 2009. On the Fountain estate in Londonderry, hundreds of attacks have taken place in the past year. What resources are being put into Northern Ireland to ensure that the police—and the Army, if called on—are there to respond to such a threat?

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman will be glad about our announcement this morning on automatic number plate recognition. That will be a useful tool for the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He mentioned pipe bombs; we condemn all those attacks. They are indiscriminate, and they target innocent people. When we talk about policing in Northern Ireland, it is worth remembering that operational decisions are matters for the Chief Constable, in whom we have great faith and with whom we have regular meetings, and of course the Department of Justice and David Ford. It is perhaps worth remembering that in Northern Ireland, there is still an average of 4.36 police officers per 1,000 of the population. That compares with 2.87 per 1,000 of the population in England and Wales. I am not saying that that is necessarily enough—it can never be enough—but there are police and resources, and we respond to demands from the PSNI.

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

What is the Minister’s assessment of the wider security threat in the context of Ulster Volunteer Force activity and the murder of Bobby Moffett?

[Mr Swire]

I join most people in this House, I suspect, in condemning the gunning down of Bobby Moffett in the cold light of day in a completely unacceptable way, and I pay tribute to all those people who live in that part of the city and who attended his funeral. The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to make any judgment on the case, as it is obviously the subject of ongoing investigation by the PSNI, but it is not impossible that there will need to be a hard line taken later, in the autumn, when the IMC next reports.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

11. What recent discussions he has had on his Department’s policy in response to the collapse of the Presbyterian Mutual Society.