United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Chloe Smith]

I certainly will not, because the hon. Gentleman has asked every single speaker this afternoon to give way, and I really need to answer the points raised by other hon. and right hon. Members here tonight.

The UK Government do not take any powers away from the devolved Administrations, because this is in addition to devolved powers, which continue. As I have said, we want to continue to work with the devolved Administrations and local authorities to ensure that this power is used to best effect, augmenting the existing powers used to support citizens across the UK. At this point, I want to thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), who made the point very well about the need for consultation and partnership working. I believe that UK Government Ministers, under the scrutiny of the UK Parliament, should have that ability to invest UK-wide. A legislative obligation to seek consent from colleagues in Stormont, Cardiff Bay or Holyrood might not always be appropriate in that context. That is because, as I have set out, the plans for investment will be at a strategic level, including on UK-wide projects, which would not be suitable to be blocked by any one part of the country. Indeed, the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) revealed in his comments that his party’s priorities lay elsewhere. Perhaps that is the case on independence, as SNP Members have missed no chance to tell us about that this afternoon, but the hon. Gentleman said that economic development, infrastructure, education, culture, sport and more were not a priority in Scotland. Those were his words, and there we have it—[Interruption.] They would block such things.

Amendment 14, from the hon. Member for Sheffield Central, would require both Houses of Parliament to agree by resolution how the power should operate. It is absolutely essential that any and all spending of taxpayers’ money is subject to proper scrutiny and, as the House well knows, we have this responsibility and authority when the Government seek to raise taxes and set budgets for public spending. We have it in the Commons, but not in the Lords, and the first thing I would say about amendment 14 is that it has a weakness—indeed, a major flaw—in that it invites the House of Lords to take a stance on financial matters, which it does not do. I have full confidence in the House of Commons to scrutinise UK Government spending decisions in this way, as it also does daily through Committees such as the Public Accounts Committee. The House would also have the opportunity to vote on spending allocation under this power, through the estimates process. So I argue that amendment 14 is unnecessary because there are already processes for looking at that expenditure, and I argue secondly that it is not right to give that power to the House of Lords as well as to the House of Commons.

Amendments 15, 16 and 12 propose that the devolved Administrations should themselves be funded to provide financial assistance under this legislation. I have already articulated why a new power is needed, so this really comes down to the very core point. For investment that is strategic, that is at a certain scale, that can be intra-UK and that can provide benefits universally across the UK, should that power be held at UK level or at the devolved level? This argument has been made pretty clearly, and it has reverberated across every side of the Chamber this afternoon. I do not think I need to re-summarise it here, but I say very clearly that this Government is a Unionist Government and we put the argument today that it is a sensible role for the UK Government to hold such a power. Therefore I turn away from those amendments that are simply based on a different view.

Amendment 12 seeks to go further. It suggests that the funding arising from the power be pre-allocated based on GDP and it should take the form of multi-annual funding.

Let me take this opportunity to be absolutely clear that devolved Administrations will continue to receive funding through the block grant and the Barnett formula, where appropriate. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) for making a powerful argument that the nations are home to some of the most deprived communities in the UK, and this goes to the argument that is contained in this amendment, perhaps, about where need is. The spending power in the Bill helps to answer that call.

Turning to the idea of long-term planning and multi-annual funding that is also encapsulated in the amendment, the funding arrangements and the governance for use of the UK-wide spending power will be a decision for the spending review, and that is the right way to allocate multi-annual funding. I urge hon. Members to withdraw the proposed amendment because it is not necessary in that instance.

I turn to amendment 22, on which colleagues from Northern Ireland have spoken passionately today, especially the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson)—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is waving at me from slightly outside the Chamber. I assure the hon. Members who authored that amendment that it is the intention and the effect of the power to apply equally across all of our nation, but I do not think that was quite the point of the hon. Gentleman’s argument here today. In fact, I suggest to him, politely and gently, that those arguments are best taken up again in the next session of this Committee, when we turn to Northern Ireland’s interests more broadly, and specifically to do with state aid, which is where I think he will be able to get a much fuller discussion of the points that he was making.

I would like to take this opportunity also to reassure the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) that community balance can be accommodated, such as it has been indeed through the Derry-Londonderry and Strabane city deal, and we intend that kind of partnership to be able to continue.

I also thank the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) for her passionate speech. She is of course right to quote John Hume that the best peace process of all is a job, and that is the kind of economic focus we intend through the Bill.

Let me also, just in passing, say to the hon. Member for Foyle—and I hope he is able to hear me, although he is also not in his place—that there is no intention to change any arrangements to do with water and water charges in Northern Ireland through the Bill, I hope he can note that—

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I want to explain for the benefit of any people who may be watching that normally Members would be in their place, but the restrictions in the Chamber mean that some are not.

[Chloe Smith]

Of course, Dame Rosie, and I mean no discourtesy, either to them or to your chairing of the debate. It is just a little unusual not to be able to see the Member that you are directing a comment to.

Let me turn to amendment 22 on the important topic of climate change, tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). She made her case with her usual passion and eloquence, which I greatly respect, and I share her determination to see those goals achieved, and so do the United Kingdom Government. However, there is already an overarching legal and policy framework for achieving those goals, and I do not think it is necessary to put that restriction on to that power, so I urge her to withdraw the amendment.

Let me turn briefly to the Government amendments 23, 24, 25 and 36, which seek to add to the types of mechanisms by which such assistance can be provided to further support economic development and other matters across the UK by means of an investment fund. Those are to help to ensure that this power can be used to best effect to boost growth, and I certainly hope every right hon. and hon. Member would support that.

This power, and the Bill overall, present a real once-in-a-generation opportunity to level up our country, to strengthen our Union and to allow the UK Government to invest better the taxpayers’ money that was previously spent by Brussels. We have a responsibility to support people, businesses and communities across the whole of our United Kingdom. This power enables the UK Government to do that in a variety of ways. I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends who asked about the UK shared prosperity fund that we can meet the manifesto commitment to deliver the fund, which matches the value of EU structural funds by using the provisions set out in this part of the Bill.

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[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

The Minister has given no concessions and very little by way of explanation for why these powers are required and exactly what the Government intend to do with them. Some Members said that this is about money. It is not about money; there is no money in the Bill. It is about the principle, devolution and where powers are best exercised.

I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said. Many people who now vote for the SNP did not start out as nationalists. That would be impossible, given the growth in our party over recent years. Many of them would have a lot of sympathy with what he said about what the Union ought to be, but that is not where we are. That is not where Scotland is right now, and it is as a result of this Government and previous Governments, and of promises made and promises broken, that we are in the situation that we find ourselves in today.

This Bill exemplifies the very worst of that with this power grab. The explanatory notes clearly state that the purposes in part 6

“fall within wholly or partly devolved areas under the Scotland Act 1998, Government of Wales Act 2006 and Northern Ireland Act 1998.”

They are powers that are being removed from the devolved institutions and hoarded here at Westminster. We will no longer have a say over all the issues that we have a say over at the moment; that will be exercised by a Government and Ministers we did not elect. That cannot be allowed to stand.

I have many things to say about the Bill, but we are late in hour and late in time. With the leave of the House, I will withdraw amendment 33, but I reserve the right to vote against clause 46. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 46

Power to provide financial assistance for economic development etc

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I must inform colleagues that, unfortunately, the pass readers in the Aye Lobby are not working. This means that colleagues who wish to vote Aye will need to do so by walking through the Chamber and stating their name at the Dispatch Box. I ask colleagues who want to vote Aye to join the queue to enter the Chamber. The No Lobby is unaffected and colleagues can continue to use the pass readers—[Interruption.] Apparently, the pass readers in the No Lobby are not working either, so all colleagues will need to vote by walking through the Chamber and stating their name at the Dispatch Box. I ask colleagues to join the queue to enter the Chamber. I ask the Tellers for the Noes to take up their place in the Under Gallery and the Tellers for the Ayes to take up their place in the officials’ Box.

Once the Tellers are in place, I will start inviting Members to file past the Table, stopping at the Dispatch Box to state their names and how they are voting. You should file to the left-hand side of the Table if you are voting Aye and the right if you are voting No. I suggest that Members on the Front Benches move further back for social distancing purposes, because other Members will be filing past. May I invite the first Member to step forward?

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This amendment would enable the Minister to provide financial assistance to investment funds for onward investment.—(Maria Caulfield.)

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Amendment 14 has been selected by the Chairman of Ways and Means for separate decision.

Amendment proposed: 14, in clause 47, page 37, line 29, at end, insert—

“(3A) Financial assistance under section 46 must be the subject of a framework agreement to be agreed by resolution of each House of Parliament.”—(Edward Miliband.)

The intention of this amendment is to provide a policy framework for the allocation of financial assistance.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

It has not been possible to mend the electronic pass reader, so we will repeat the same procedure as previously. We need to wait until the tellers are in place and then I will invite the first hon. Member to come forward.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 14th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I am sure colleagues can see that there is a lot of time pressure in this debate. I urge Members to stick to a maximum of six minutes, rather than having me impose a time limit at this stage. If Members can do that, we will see how we get on.

[Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con)]

First, I thank the Minister and her team for their hard work on this Bill. There are a select few of us in this House who can get excited about boundary reviews, and most of us are here today, and I thank her for indulging my psephological exuberance throughout.

I will speak about the merits of the Bill before turning to the amendments. At its heart, the Bill is about fairness; it is about recognising that everybody in this country should have an equal voice in our democratic process. Fundamentally, it is about saying that no one person’s vote should count more than another’s. There will be some in this Chamber who believe that that is the case already, and no doubt we will hear a series of eloquent speeches about that to one effect or another, but the crux of the matter is that there are some parts of the United Kingdom where just 56,000 people can send the same number of representatives as 100,000 in another.

Before this is hand-waved by Opposition Members as a ploy to make the electoral geography somehow better for one party or another, we need to understand the basic principle of electoral equality. This idea is not new; it was not cooked up in some trendy centre-right think-tank over on Millbank the other day. It started with the Chartists back in 1838, who, in the “People’s Charter”, called for this measure to be introduced as an essential cornerstone of our democracy.

As I mentioned in the Bill Committee, we do not need to look far for extreme examples of disparity. Greater Manchester, where I am an MP, has 27 MPs whose electorates range from 63,000 to 95,000. How can that be fair or right? My own seat, Heywood and Middleton, is around 111% of the electoral quota. Why should my constituents’ voices count for less than those of voters in Wirral West or Preston?

The issue is not just about apportionment within regions or counties, however—far from it. Using the December 2019 figures, we arrive at an electoral quota—the number of voters per seat—of about 72,431. That should be the average size of every seat in every region, but it is not. In Wales, it is a shade over 57,900; in the south-east, excluding the Isle of Wight, it is nearly 78,500. As a tenet of fundamental fairness, we simply cannot turn a blind eye to such disparity.

I accept that, historically, there are good reasons for that malapportionment—to ensure that the four nations of our Union could all have a voice in this place—but Scotland now has a Parliament that is the most powerful devolved legislature anywhere in the world, Wales has the Senedd and Northern Ireland has its Assembly. Outside London, there is a patchwork of uneven devolution settlements in certain counties and metropolitan areas, none of which comes close to those devolved legislatures.

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[Chris Clarkson]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I have a lot of time for him, too. I am not here to blindly say that I agree with everything that my party has ever done; I think that using an electoral quota is a much fairer way of doing it.

As I say, it strikes me as frankly bizarre that when we are concerned about the overpopulation of the other place, we should be trying to pack this place out. The hon. Gentleman played an extremely constructive role on the Bill Committee, with some very sensible proposals —he is one of us! [Interruption.] I mean an electoral geek, obviously. It is just a shame that his new clause 2 does not follow that lead, so I will give it “D minus —must try harder.”

Let me move on to new clause 3, which I think our Liberal Democrat friends might find a bit disappointing, too. Although on some level I have sympathy with the idea of including those who are not on the electoral register, we have to use the fairest and most consistent data available to us, which is the electoral register. If some people choose not to be on it, that is their choice. Similarly, some people will not qualify, and it is unfair to try to guess who those people might be. In either case, I do not think that adding additional people to the register will improve any electoral chances.

Lastly, I turn to the concept of automaticity, which is covered by amendment 1. I hardly need—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order.

[Chris Clarkson]

Shall I wind up, Madam Deputy Speaker?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Yes.

[Chris Clarkson]

Okay. Somebody else can deal with automaticity.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

We are not really doing very well so far, are we? We will have another go at trying to stick to six minutes. John Spellar, I am sure, will do that.

[John Spellar]

I shall certainly try, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Can we be frank? Boundary changes are a real nuisance, but a necessary nuisance. We all accept that they have to happen, even though they are a problem for Members of Parliament, and indeed for political organisations and often for constituents. Everyone accepts that; what people do not accept is gratuitous disruption, which is what we have had over the past 10 years.

Let us be clear about what the Bill is trying to do: it is trying to clear up the mess from the shoddy, squalid deal between David Cameron and Nick Clegg, into which they both put exercises for party political advantage. The Lib Dems thought that they would get proportional representation; the Tories thought that they would rig the redistribution process; and neither worked. One of the reasons why there was such opposition in Parliament, and why the changes were never put to Parliament, was precisely that the Government knew that they could not command a majority among their own Members, who recognised that. Several Chief Whips tried to persuade very stubborn Prime Ministers of that fact.

Why did the problems occur? Basically, the idea was fatally flawed, and it was made worse by the 5%. That rigid demarcation ended up forcing the Boundary Commission to make decisions and plans that made no sense on the ground. Take Birmingham: one ward was taken out of Sutton Coldfield, which has never accepted that it is part of Birmingham, and transferred to Birmingham, Erdington, while another ward was taken from Birmingham, Erdington and put into Sutton Coldfield. Nobody was happy with that, but it was forced on them by the narrow constraints. Similarly, my constituency, part of which is right up at the edge of Birmingham, was moved right the way through Sandwell and into Dudley town centre.

There was no coherence, no community, between them, and everybody recognised that. Another one went from the middle of Halesowen right the way in a strip across Birmingham, and that was replicated all around the country.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

It is up to the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) whether she wants to give way.

[Mrs Miller]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I actually wrote it down—perhaps the right hon. Gentleman needs to check Hansard.

[John Spellar]

You got it wrong! I said “a necessary”, not “unnecessary”.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman has put his views on the record, but he really must not interrupt in that way.

[Mrs Miller]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The Bill is all about the quality of our democracy and about fair and equal-sized constituencies, which are at the heart of the Bill. It is to ensure that every vote counts the same. I see that as part of a fair democracy. This group of amendments repeats many of the debates in Committee, despite the compelling evidence that we received. They are designed to dilute the intention of the Bill and, in doing so, reduce its effectiveness in delivering better democracy.

I will look at just two amendments: new clause 1 and amendment 1. New clause 1, which would allow an up to 15% difference between each of our constituencies, fundamentally tries to undermine the intention of the Bill. Anyone listening to the debate today would think that our communities all come in packages of particular sizes; that is simply not the case. Swindon and Reading both had to be split in two, and any increase in the tolerance around the quota would not have really helped them. My constituency of Basingstoke now has 83,000 people. Whatever way we read that, Basingstoke will have to be carved up into different constituencies, regardless of the fact that it is clearly one coherent community.

The cornerstone of what we are doing here has to be the issue of equal suffrage. That is the cornerstone of our democracy and we cannot con ourselves into thinking that our communities can be carved up easily—they cannot. It is difficult. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Warley had a point when he used the words—which I must get right now to ensure I do not affront him again—an unnecessary nuisance, because in many ways this is very difficult to put into practice. However, it was central to our 2019 Conservative party manifesto that we would have updated and equal parliamentary boundaries to ensure that every vote counted the same.

On the amendment, if we are to reach the Bill’s objective, we need to urge the Boundary Commission to be far more imaginative in how it looks at our communities and go below the ward level when trying to construct new boundaries. It is possible within the existing rules to do that—no rule change is required—but I was rather taken aback by some of the Boundary Commission’s evidence saying how difficult that would be, particularly given that software with geographic information system capability has been purchased to enable sub-ward-level boundaries to be considered. I hope that the Minister may be able to edify the Chamber a little on what more work has been done in that direction.

I note that the Boundary Commission’s letter by way of supplementary evidence said that the political parties were going to meet the commission prior to the review starting. I hope the Minister may be able to reassure us that further headway will be made on this issue. I welcomed the commission suggesting, in that supplementary evidence, the prioritising of the mapping of metropolitan council areas where the largest ward electorate sizes occur, but if other areas in the country require that to happen, how will we handle that?

Perhaps the Minister could also consider how we should be dealing with the Boundary Commission between reviews to make sure that it is doing this basic spadework then, rather than when a review is imminent. It seems to be a poor use of resources to be dealing with it in this way.

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[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie). I congratulate her on her success; I hope it is the first of many. I shall not repeat her constituency name too frequently in case I injure its pronunciation. It is a great tribute to her that she has got that success so soon in this Parliament.

As we know, every day is a school day. It has been interesting to hear people on the Government Benches talk with a straight face about the equalisation of seats, having operated and implemented the English votes for English laws process in this Parliament. If Members want an English Parliament, they should create it, and I will support it, but it is no substitute for our national Parliament, which is this Chamber. It is hard to listen to equalisation arguments, having been unnecessarily excluded from so many votes in this place since the creation of that policy.

As I say, every day is a school day, and it is interesting to learn that not only is there a song called “Sussex by the Sea”, but it is an anthem with a national day on which to be sung. The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) is looking at me because he understands all the nuances in our wonderful British Isles. It would have been no surprise to him, but it was to me.

Having heard the comments from the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), who is not in the Chamber, about how much he enjoyed the Bill Committee, I suppose I should probably not admit that I gave evidence to the Committee and probably added to the pain and suffering that he and other Committee members endured. I was pleased to give evidence as our party’s director of elections.

Some important contributions have resurfaced today, not only from the Bill Committee but on the amendment paper, and should be considered. I can see no argument against parliamentary sovereignty or parliamentary scrutiny of boundary commission proposals. I added my name to amendment 1 for that precise purpose. The hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) made the argument earlier about setting the task and then agreeing with the conclusion, and that is our role.

I do not agree with the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) when she suggests that there is a commensurate removal of Executive power. When I gave evidence to the Bill Committee, I think I was fair when I reflected that there is no equivalence or equalisation between parliamentary sovereignty and approval and a technical amendment mechanism that is not used by Ministers and has not been used by Ministers. I have yet to hear Ministers put forward a comprehensive or compelling example of when that ministerial power was used and how it is of equal comparison to the removal of parliamentary approval for boundary commission proposals in respect of the restructure in the Bill. I do not think there is such an example and I have yet to hear one, but I am happy to give way should somebody wish to correct me.

I support new clause 1, but it is fair to say that it contains many arguments in which I have no part to play. I will not put forward arguments about the retention of seats in Wales—that is for others—or about the retention of seats in Scotland, either. In 2018, the Government published the Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill, which secured 18 seats for Northern Ireland. It was published but never progressed, but that legislative commitment was given by Government, and it was important for the constitutional and balanced position that we have in Northern Ireland. It was a commitment that was given and has not been repeated in this Bill, which is hugely regrettable, so I will support new clause 2 if it is brought to a vote.

On new clause 1, there are fair arguments about 5% and how much better the constituencies will be with the increase of every percentage point thereafter. This has not been raised in the Chamber thus far, but Members will know that, under the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986, Northern Ireland has a special provision in rule 7 whereby, if the Boundary Commission is unable to construe boundaries with geographical significance or there is no further inaccuracy, we are allowed to have a tolerance of 10%. That rule is retained in this Bill, and we think it is an important rule. The Minister will know from the comments I made in evidence to the Bill Committee that, following a judicial review last year and the Court of Appeal judgment issued only two months ago, Boundary Commission proposals from Northern Ireland were struck down in the operation of rule 7, and we are concerned that there may be a chilling effect on the application of rule 7 in future Boundary Commission proposals.

We will support the increased tolerance from 5% to 7.5% because we think that it would give the greater flexibility required to ensure that Boundary Commission proposals in Northern Ireland are fair, balanced and not infected by other historical arguments that could be brought into the process. However, I am keen to hear from the Minister how lessons can be learned from the application of rule 7 and that the 10% tolerance—or 20%, since it is plus or minus 10%—is important for Northern Ireland, and future boundary commissioners should not be precluded from using it, because it plays an important part in the Boundary Commission process in Northern Ireland, and ultimately it needs to be retained.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Things have perked up enormously on the time front. However, from now on, if Members could stick to five minutes, everyone will be able to speak. I call Shaun Bailey.

[Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)]

Before I begin, on Black Country Day, I want to pay tribute to the Black Country chartists and suffragettes in Wednesbury and Tipton who fought for us to be here under one member, one vote and ensure that our constituents could be represented.

I fear that I may repeat many of the arguments that had been made eloquently today. It is great to follow the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), who gave enlightening and interesting evidence to the Bill Committee. I would like to thank all members of the Bill Committee. It was my first Bill Committee, and what a Bill Committee to be on. As my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) put it, it allowed me to utilise my psephological exuberance, which is a fantastic phrase that I will try to make sure I get into conversations from now on.

I want to touch on three main points. The first is on automaticity—a word that I have finally learned to say without tongue-twisting. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) said in Committee, at the moment we are in a situation where we mark our own homework; there is no doubt about that. I do not understand how we can reconcile that. I repeat what I said on Second Reading: what is being proposed is an independent, judiciary-led commission. I have trust and faith in our judiciary. I am a lawyer—that is bred into me. Unless someone wants to take me to school on this, my understanding of our constitutional structure is that this place sets the laws, and the judiciary help to interpret them, so I do not understand where this fear of what is business as usual comes from.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) articulated the point eloquently, as did my neighbour, the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar), about the Boundary Commission’s Selly Oak proposal. The independent commission took evidence from the community, after which it made the decision that the proposal was not acceptable. We talk about this as if, once we get the initial recommendations, that is it—game over. It is not like that at all. Those who have been through the experience of a boundary change know full well that it is not like that, so I struggle to accept that argument from the Opposition.

When we talk about a 7.5% threshold, it is not actually 7.5%—it is 15%. Let us be honest about that. The Venice Commission report, which Opposition Members have quoted freely, states clearly that that 15% threshold is for exceptional circumstances.

The semantics of that report were quite clear. It effectively advised to steer well clear of going anywhere near that, and actually went so far as to suggest that we should keep that threshold as minimal as possible to ensure certainty, fairness and parity among constituencies. I do not accept Opposition Members’ interpretation of that report.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I call Emma Hardy.

[Emma Hardy]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have found the debate a little confusing, because the arguments that Conservative Members have been making, some of whom I hold in high regard, make me wonder how clearly and accurately they listened to the opening speeches. I would go as far as to say that there have been many straw man arguments created throughout this debate. At the outset, I wish to say that when quoting any Member of the House it is important that it is done accurately and precisely, and I hope Hansard will reflect that.

The Labour party of course accepts the need for boundary changes. No one has argued against that, so again I am slightly confused by the arguments presented by Conservative Members that somehow we are speaking against it. We have welcomed the fact that the Bill has moved to having 650 MPs and that the data being taken is from March 2020. I wish to spend a moment paying tribute to my staff for the amount of work they have done and for how hard they have worked during this pandemic. I am sure that is the case for all Members’ staff throughout this time and we should all recognise the need for 650 MPs.

I wish to address some of the comments made by Conservative Members. I was disappointed to hear our amendment referred to as a “wrecking amendment”, as I thought that was unjustified. Trying to extend the flexibility of a boundary commission to take into account local history and local cultures is not “wrecking”; it is merely pragmatic and sensible, so I was disappointed with the language used. Another Member mentioned the need for the Boundary Commission to be more imaginative, but surely there needs to be recognition of the fact that it is difficult for it to be imaginative when its hands are tied behind its back because it is restricted to 5%. As our shadow Minister said, 5% on the basis of 600 Members is 4,000 electors, whereas 5% on the basis of 650 is only 3,500.

Yet another straw man argument being presented by Conservative Members is that all these constituencies would be 15% different, which shows that they have not accurately read the amendment. That is not what it says. It says that the Boundary Commission would use the 5% and have a tolerance to extend to 7.5% in areas where it is absolutely necessary. It does not at any point say, “Let’s encourage the Boundary Commission to make sure all our constituencies are 15% different.” Again, we saw another straw man and another disappointing argument from Conservative Members.

Some of the evidence that was given during the Bill Committee included comments from David Rossiter and Charles Pattie, who noted that it was the 5% that caused the greatest disruption. Indeed, one of the things that was so intolerable to the people in the community in the changes that were going to be implemented in my constituency of Hull West and Hessle was the movement across the natural boundaries. A ward was proposed that would instead go from east Hull into west Hull. I do not expect anyone in the House now to be aware of the historical traditions and rivalries between east and west Hull, but if Members look at our rugby teams as a good example of that friendly rivalry that exists in the community, they can perhaps start to understand why a movement across the River Hull would be so intolerable. That was indeed mentioned by my predecessor, Alan Johnson, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) in the evidence that they gave to the previous Boundary Commission. I suppose that part of my message to the Boundary Commission, via the Minister, is that it really does need to look at natural geography and the histories and cultural traditions of places. That is why I am in favour of allowing this extra tolerance—not on every occasion as has been mentioned—to ensure that it takes those historical differences into account.

I will not detain the House for too much longer, but I think it is also worth pointing out—it is certainly the feeling I get from residents in Hull—that no one would thank a political party for trying to enforce a new identity on an established community by moving it out of one community and insisting that it belongs to another. I am also a little perplexed by the idea that a political party, which seems to be so keen on taking back control of our borders, seems to want to relinquish control of our constituency borders to an unelected body.

On the point about bringing the decision back to Parliament, it is worth pointing out that we are under no illusion that, if we bring the matter back to Parliament, the Conservative party has the majority to force through what it wants, so this is a point of principle, rather than any realistic notion that we could change the decisions that have been made. That is why I support new clause 1 and amendment 1 in the name of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

No, I am afraid that time is very tight.

The predecessor Committee to mine suggested 10%, with a 15% allowance in exceptional circumstance. That was agreed across the parties in 2015; this is a far more modest proposal. Of course the Boundary Commission should aim to be dead on—no one is saying otherwise—but where that is impossible, we should allow it flexibility. To use a judicial analogy, we should allow the judge to use their expertise, rather than tying their hands behind their back.

We know that if the rules are written incorrectly, we will get a gerrymandered outcome. That is not the fault of the commissioners; it is not the fault of the judges, although it is not a judicial but a quasi-judicial process; it is a fault in how the rules are written, which is why it is so important that the question should come back here. It is not we who vote in Parliament; our votes are for the people, so removing this place’s oversight is removing the oversight of the people.

Finally, I will quickly touch on how we look at the numbers. The 1917 boundary review, which was the first major boundary review in this country, used census data. The 1911 census, which I have been looking at recently while doing my ancestry—scarily, I am related to the Eustices; I must inform the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—was used as the building block, because it was both the census and the electoral roll. Splitting it has meant that we no longer have an automated electoral roll. If we either had an automated electoral roll or used the census, we would have fairer constituencies as well. I am disappointed that the Government have not included that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call Alex Davies-Jones.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Diolch, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this very important Bill; I will keep my comments brief because I know that we are short on time.

It will come as no surprise that I have concerns about the restrictive 5% electoral quota and the impact that it will have on constituencies such as the area that I represent in the heart of the south Wales valleys. Creating constituencies that make sense to the local communities is even harder with our local geography. I know that this has already been eloquently explained by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), but locals in my patch in Pontypridd and across Rhondda Cynon Taf will tell you in a heartbeat that it would make no sense for constituencies to have more than one valley and a mountain range in between. Indeed, during her evidence session, Shereen Williams of the Local Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales said:

“I think the valleys will present a unique challenge for us, because you do not really want to split a valley and have half in one seat and the other half in another seat.”––[Official Report, Parliamentary Constituencies Public Bill Committee, 18 June 2020; c. 20, Q35.]

I completely agree. It is clear that our stunning valleys should be given greater consideration than the 5% variance in drawing Welsh boundaries, and I urge colleagues to support a flexible and sensible approach.

Naturally, I also have general concerns that Wales will be hit most by the loss of constituencies in the next boundary change, because of the large population shifts in the area over the past 20 years, which colleagues have alluded to. I have also been shocked, frustrated and actually quite tamping, for want of a better word, to read the incredibly reckless comments from colleagues in the Senedd, most notably from Mark Reckless MS, about abolishing the Welsh Parliament. It is clear, now more than ever, that the Welsh Parliament plays a vital role in scrutinising policy that has an impact on communities across Wales.

I urge colleagues on the Government Benches to stand with me and commit to strengthening, as opposed to weakening, Wales’s voice, both here in Westminster and in the Senedd. It is vital that the boundary commissioners be given greater flexibility to take into account our unique geography, particularly if we are to ensure that representation in Wales is not forgotten here in Parliament.

EU-UK Partnership: EU’s Mandate

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Andrew Griffith), who must represent one of the most beautiful parts of the UK. Sadly, I do not share his Panglossian view of where we are with the negotiations.

I tend to agree more with the former leader of the hon. Gentleman’s party, who asked the Prime Minister yesterday about the sorry state of manufacturing at the moment and the risk to car companies such as Nissan, with a possible 10% tariff to be levied if this does not go right. The purchasing managers index is down to 40, indicating contraction. We know that that is, in recession terms, a very serious position for manufacturing. The Governor of the Bank of England has described our economy as potentially going towards a depression rather than just a recession. This feels to me less like a Panglossian rebirth and more like a second punch in the face after covid.

I am very concerned about the sanitary and phytosanitary arrangements, which are not yet pinned down. I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify where she thinks we are on food standards. We have the gold standard at the moment, but we read in the newspaper concerns about the quality of imported food. What is her view of where we are with that negotiation?

Will the Minister also outline whether she believes we are likely to veer away from the excellent environmental protection standards in the European Union in order to save some of our businesses, which will be severely at risk? Will we cut corners on workers’ rights? Has she had conversations with the TUC about protecting the rights of workers? Obviously, statements were made about that in the last Parliament, and it was something that we debated a lot. However, given the way the economy is going at the moment—possibly even towards a depression—will the Government cut corners on important questions such as environmental protections and workers’ rights?

We have talked a lot this afternoon about Northern Ireland. Will the Minister please give businesses there clarity? They are not just important for communities in Northern Ireland; when we go to the shops and buy a bar of cheddar, which is our most popular cheese, we are buying it from farmers in Northern Ireland, so we all have an interest in getting these details right.

We know that the Prime Minister’s promise of an oven-ready deal with no checks at the border in Northern Ireland was a fiction. We now know that new red tape and rules will be introduced for the business community, much of which is small and medium-sized enterprises. Even a small amount of red tape can tip a small business into a problematic area, so please may we have some detail on that in writing, so that Members can disseminate it to those small businesses that are worried about it?

In conclusion, I beg for some pragmatism and not just an ideological approach to this important area. Given that we are in a seriously problematic area for our economy, we need to stop being ideological and be much more pragmatic.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call Duncan Baker. You have 90 seconds.

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[Penny Mordaunt]

I can give the hon. Gentleman those assurances. I will just say, as a quick plug, as it is my Department, that the work that the civil service did last year in terms of those preparations was incredible and has made this country very resilient. We have drawn on much of the work that they did at that time to help us with the covid response. They are stellar individuals and I pay tribute to them for what they did then and for what they are doing now.

Finally, I just want to mention my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Andrew Griffith), who gave an extremely confident speech and reminded us why all this will come to pass. It is because it is good for us and it is good for our partners with which we are trying to get trade deals, and, as a consequence, I remain optimistic about our future.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

That concludes the debate. I understand that the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) wishes to withdraw his amendment.

[Paul Blomfield]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House, having regard to the constitutional and legal functions enshrined in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, urges the Government to conduct its negotiations with the European Union with the fullest possible transparency to facilitate essential parliamentary scrutiny; also urges the Government to make regular progress reports on the negotiations, including on stakeholder contributions to the consultation on The Future Relationship with the EU: the UK’s Approach to Negotiations, and to address the issues identified by the European Scrutiny Committee in its Fifth Report of Session 2019–21, HC 333, as matters of vital national interest.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I have a short announcement. Further to the House’s decision earlier this afternoon to hold an emergency debate on the matter of the arrangements for the conduct of House business during the covid-19 pandemic, I can announce that the debate will be held at the commencement of public business on Monday and will last for up to two hours.

In order to allow the safe exit of right hon. and hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I will suspend the House for three minutes.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion & Programme motion: House of Commons
Tuesday 2nd June 2020 Commons Chamber

Second Reading

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Mr Speaker has selected the reasoned amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and others. Under the provisions of the Business of the House (Today) motion, I will call a signatory of that amendment to move it at the conclusion of the debate.

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[Andrew Rosindell]

The Minister’s point is absolutely correct—we do have to have balanced boundaries—but does she agree that that can be achieved by having smaller building blocks, like polling districts, rather than huge wards that change from one constituency to another? If the boundary commissions used smaller building blocks like polling districts, it would avoid communities being broken up.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. We must have short interventions. A lot of people want to speak. I am sure the Minister will be winding up fairly soon, but if everybody wants to get in, Members should bear that in mind.

[Chloe Smith]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps I had better make progress and take no further interventions. I will endeavour to speak as quickly as I can to cover the remainder of the important content.

Let me turn to the permitted tolerance in electoral quota, which relates to the plus or minus 5% point that we have just touched on. The rules on that have been in place since 2011, and they provide that the boundary commission has to develop proposals on the basis that all constituencies are within a 10% range of the average constituency electorate. That is known as the electoral quota. As I have been saying, that is critical to achieving equal constituencies and to votes carrying the same weight. We have systemic inequality in some of our constituencies—I could give the examples, but I will let them be seen for themselves in some of the almanacs that we normally have around us. We know that there is a problem with unequally sized constituencies.

The existing law allows a few limited exceptions to the rules, including in respect of four protected constituencies which, because of their particular geographical circumstances, may diverge from the quota. In certain circumstances, the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland may propose constituencies that fall outside the range, and that is because of the fact that Northern Ireland represents the smallest discrete grouping of constituencies, so the Boundary Commission has less capacity in Northern Ireland specifically to meet the standard tolerance. We do not intend to add to those exceptions.

We are all absolutely passionate about representing our communities and our areas, and they all have distinctive natures—we all argue that and we all know that in our hearts in respect of the areas we represent—but I return to the central point that we are trying to achieve parity of representation for all electors across the Union and within its constituent nations. We do not think that additional exceptions are necessary, because the 10% tolerance range gives the boundary commissions the flexibility that they need to do the job, and they do that by taking into account the other factors that are set out in the existing legislation and will remain in place, to which I have referred a couple of times already. Those factors include local ties; geographical features and considerations; existing constituency and local government boundaries; and inconveniences caused by proposed changes to constituency boundaries.

We believe that the 10% tolerance will continue to allow the boundary commissions to consult openly and fully on their proposals and to adjust their recommendations in the light of the responses that they receive. The three separate consultation periods give significant opportunity to communities—as well as others in the process, such as political parties—to comment on proposals. Responses can be made in a number of ways and they really do shape the recommendations. For example, in the most recent boundary review more than 50% of the proposals for constituencies in England were adjusted in the light of feedback, so there is flexibility in the process and it is routinely used successfully.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Before I call the Opposition spokesperson, I give Back Benchers notice that I will impose an immediate time limit of five minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I do not want to stop the cut and thrust of debate, but I remind right hon and hon. Members that interventions possibly have the effect of stopping not only others, but oneself from speaking, because there are a lot of people who want to get in on the debate. That is just a gentle reminder.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. There have been a number of interventions, which are putting pressure on other speakers. I will therefore reduce the time limit to four minutes after the next speaker.

Northern Ireland Protocol: UK Approach

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for her question. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to her for her work during her time as Prime Minister to ensure that the position of Northern Ireland could be secured within the United Kingdom even as we left the European Union. It is the case that there will be EU regulations and aspects of the acquis that will apply in Northern Ireland until 2024, but of course she draws attention to a very important point. If the workings of the protocol are viewed by the people and parties of Northern Ireland as onerous, too much, intrusive and unacceptable, they have the opportunity to vote them down in 2024. That is why it is so important that we design an approach that can continue to command consent.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call Pete Wishart, who has 90 seconds.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]]

Ninety seconds? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Today, we seem to be presented with another episode of Schrödinger’s border—one that is both there and not quite there, all dependent on what side of the EU negotiations a person happens to be on. UK Ministers have repeatedly said that there will be no border or any checks down the Irish Sea. We now know that that is not exactly the case, as we heard in the last response. From the very beginning, the possibility of that was crystal clear given what is in the withdrawal agreement and the need for a level playing field between the EU and Northern Ireland. We all know that there will be customs checks between the rest of the UK and Northern Ireland, so why do the UK Government not just acknowledge that fact? The EU has said that there must be the introduction of customs procedures and formalities in Northern Ireland for all goods traded between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

There have been no discussions about this with the Scottish Government, even though we will be placed at a competitive disadvantage with Northern Ireland because of these arrangements. We would give our national right hand to have the arrangements and competitive advantage that Northern Ireland will have, so why can we not get some of this if Northern Ireland does not want it?

These negotiations need skill, guile and dexterity, and I think we have seen again today a Government who are singularly not up to it.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) [V]]

If we are correct to presume that any paperwork will be digital, can my right hon. Friend assure me that there will be compatibility between the IT systems of HMRC and those of the European Union in order to ensure that that system can work swiftly and smoothly? He mentioned consultation in his statement. We have been hearing in the Select Committee inquiry on this important issue of precious little engagement with the business community by his Department. May I urge him to sharpen his pencil and engage with the community to ensure that it is understood and that his Department understands that most businesses are mostly focused on dealing with covid and trying to survive?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

We have very little time, so I would encourage right hon. and hon. Members to ask short questions and obviously the Minister to give short answers.

[Michael Gove]

We will of course work to make sure that IT systems are efficient and compatible and consult with business. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has a business roundtable this afternoon. Engagement with Northern Ireland’s citizens and its many small and medium-sized enterprises is critical to making everything work.

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[Michael Gove]

Yes. I think it was Margaret Thatcher who said that Northern Ireland was “as British as Finchley”, and that has always been my view. It is of course the case that the Belfast agreement recognises the particular history, traditions, geography and conflict that has existed in Northern Ireland, but the people of Northern Ireland have decided and voted consistently to remain part of the United Kingdom, and I celebrate that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

That concludes scrutiny proceedings. I suspend the House for five minutes—until 1.58 pm.

Census

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab) [V]]

It is a pleasure to speak for the Opposition Front Bench, supporting changes to make a more inclusive census that is fit for the 21st century.

The census is an important tool for taking a snapshot of the country as it is today, useful for Government planning now and precious to the historians of the future, who will use this vast record of how we live our lives. Perhaps the most telling way in which this is a 21st-century census is the ambition that the majority of respondents will complete the census online. For many, this will make completing the census easier and collating the data faster. However, I urge the Minister not to forget those who are still digitally excluded.

This legislation will introduce new voluntary questions about gender identity and sexual orientation, allowing as yet unknown numbers of lesbian, gay and bisexual citizens, as well as those who have transitioned their gender identity, the chance to be recognised in official statistics. This is a huge step forward for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people of this country. It is not only symbolically important, but practically necessary. Information derived from the census helps to inform policy, plan services and distribute resources effectively to local government and health authorities. By building a clear picture of LGBT communities, resources can be targeted more effectively. I am proud of the progress that we are making on LGBT equality, which started under the previous Labour Government, by repealing the discriminatory section 28, introducing civil partnerships and equalising the age of consent. We are now seeing an LGBT-inclusive census for 2021.

Labour is proud to support the LGBT community, and our support has never wavered. Although this is not personally the Minister’s responsibility, I cannot give up the opportunity to remind her that we are still waiting for her Government to publish the results of their consultation on reform of the outdated Gender Recognition Act 2004. I am sure that the House and the LGBT community, who will be following the progress made on the census today, would really appreciate an update from the Government for their reason in delaying reform of that Act.

With regard to statistics, the LGBT community is currently a hidden population. Although we do not have accurate data about the size of the community, we do know that it has been hit hard by a decade of Tory austerity, preventing the development of truly specialist LGBT services, and we know that homophobic and transphobic hate crimes are on the rise. Since 2014, offences against gay, lesbian and bisexual people have doubled, while offences against trans people have trebled. This analysis was released after two women were attacked on a bus in London last year for refusing to kiss in front of a group of men. That is just one example of LGBT hate crime that was recorded.

The position of LGBT homeless people warrants particular attention in this discussion, not least given the shocking statistic that up to 24% of the youth homeless population are from the LGBT community. I pay tribute to the Albert Kennedy Trust for its continued work in this area, but the unprecedented rise in homelessness under this Government is a national shame. I ask the Minister whether, when the census data eventually exposes the size of this community, which has been neglected for so long, the Government will finally provide the specialist LGBT services that are so desperately needed, including support for those who are homeless?

The Labour party fully supports the inclusion of a new question about armed forces personnel and veterans in the census. This will ensure that charities, public bodies and service providers will be able to meet the needs of this community. It is right and proper that those who have stood up and served our country are recognised and supported when they return to civilian life. Referring back to my earlier points on homelessness, it is a scandal that so many veterans find themselves street homeless.

If minority groups are represented in the census, they will have a better chance of receiving the resources they need. That is why we warmly welcome the inclusion of the Roma community in the 2021 census. The Roma are among the most disadvantaged people in the country and have poorer outcomes in key areas such as health and education. The community has faced overt discrimination and abuse for generations. Data about this community will hopefully lead to better resource allocation.

Last year, the Women and Equalities Committee released an eye-opening report, making a damning critique of the progress made in addressing inequalities faced by Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. I challenge the Government to do more to improve the outcomes in education and health and to tackle discrimination and hate crime, as well as violence against women and girls. Today’s inclusion of Roma in the next census is an important step in that, but will the Minister say more about what she hopes the Government will do, or what she believes they have done, to develop a clear and effective plan to support Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities?

I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin), my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar) and my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) hope to speak in this debate about the issues raised by the Sikh communities that they represent in this place. They will express how their constituents want to see the campaign for the inclusion of a Sikh tick box in the ethnic identity question raised in our discussions this afternoon. There is no doubt that policy decisions have overlooked the Sikh community in our country. Up-to-date statistics are few and far between, but the UK Sikh survey in 2016 found that almost one in five Sikhs had encountered discrimination in public places over a year, with Sikhs who wear religious iconography or clothing most likely to experience abuse. The report stated that the Government had

“systematically failed the minority Sikh community by not adequately responding to the disproportionate impact of racism and hate crime targeting Sikhs since 9/11.”

A freedom of information request submitted by the Network of Sikh Organisations revealed that 28% of victims recorded under the Islamophobic hate crime category during 2015 were in fact non-Muslims. Indeed, in 2018 we saw a Sikh visitor to our Parliament racially attacked, with his turban ripped off while queuing for the security checks to enter Parliament. A lack of accurate data can mean that such anti-Sikh hate crimes are perhaps neglected, because many are inaccurately recorded. Indeed, evidence suggests that the census has historically underestimated the Sikh community in the UK. For example, Sikhs are believed to constitute just 1% of the London population, yet account for 5% of deaths among homeless men. Either the Sikh population is higher than estimated, or the Sikh community has been disproportionately affected by homelessness. That point is especially pertinent in the context of the disproportionate impact of the coronavirus pandemic on minority communities, including health and social care workers.

How does the Minister plan to address such inequalities while we lack the accurate data needed on the Sikh community? Does she recognise that the chronic statistical under-reporting of communities such as the Sikh community could allow discrimination to go unnoticed? Currently, only data collected under the ethnicity question in the census is used by public bodies for resource allocation and service planning decisions. We know that data collected under the optional question of religion would be more accurate in reflecting the Sikh community. The religion question should not be made compulsory, but what action could be taken to ensure that the census data collected on religion could be used by public bodies in the same way that data on ethnic groups is handled?

Lastly, will the Minister outline what action the Government are taking to ensure that the Sikh community does not remain statistically invisible to law and policy makers? It is clearer now more than ever that minority groups can no longer be left invisible to those responsible for making public policy decisions.

We do not want to see delay in the census, and we support the important changes in the legislation. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s responses in her closing remarks.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am now introducing a time limit of five minutes. I advise hon. Members who are speaking virtually to have a timing device visible.

Budget Resolutions

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

It is a pleasure to call Kim Johnson to make her maiden speech.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

I will not give way.

The British people have responded to the coronavirus crisis with stoicism and selflessness, as well as a distinct sense of humour—especially when it comes to toilet rolls. The British people are following the lead that has been set by right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor who, in the most challenging of circumstances, have resolved to act prudently on the basis of evidence and to act in the national interest. I have every faith that in the coming months they will do the right thing and that, whatever happens, as a country we will emerge stronger on the other side.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

It is a pleasure to call Sam Tarry to make his maiden speech.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

It is a pleasure to call Matt Vickers to make his maiden speech.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. It is a pleasure to call Gareth Davies to make his maiden speech.

Local Government Finance

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. At oral questions earlier today, the Prime Minister assured me that the Government had responded to the tragic case of Errol Graham by creating a new independent serious case panel. Last week, the Department for Work and Pensions admitted that, far from being independent, the serious case panel was composed entirely of DWP officials. I understand that this afternoon the Department has indicated that the panel will now include some members independent of the Department. Madam Deputy Speaker, have you received any notice from DWP Ministers that they intend to make a statement on these new arrangements?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order and for giving me notice of it. Obviously, the content of Ministers’ replies is a matter for them, not the Chair, but I am sure that if there was any inaccuracy in anything the Prime Minister said, he will want to make a correction at the earliest opportunity. I am also confident that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard her concerns—I am looking at the Whip—and will ensure that her comments about what was said at Prime Minister’s Question Time are fed back so that if anything needs to be corrected, it can be done quickly.

Election of Speaker

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2019 Commons Chamber

[Dame Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)]

I am sure that all the other candidates in the election today will agree with me, Mr Clarke, when I say that none of us can match the experience that you have in this place, or the esteem in which you are held. You are leaving us after half a century of service, and we thank you for that service, but others are leaving in part because of what our politics has become. As the House is the crucible of our politics, that should concern us all, which is why the role of Speaker matters so much.

I am putting myself forward after 22 years of diverse experience as a Back Bencher, a Minister, a shadow Leader of the House, a Chief Whip and a Deputy Speaker. Restoring public confidence in Parliament is all our responsibility, but the Speaker sets the tone. My view is that the Speaker’s job is not to dominate proceedings or speak for Parliament but to facilitate debate and allow Parliament to speak for itself, with all its different voices and in all its diverse voices.

During my time as Opposition Chief Whip, I worked with the majority and minority parties to build consensus where we could, and I made sure that we did not fall out when we could not agree. As Deputy Speaker, I have been struck by the fact that in so many of our debates there is consensus, with members of different parties working together to find common ground. Of course, there will always be times when the House is rumbustious; that is fine. What the public do not like is ill temper and intolerance. The turbulent time in our politics has put this institution, and all of us, under great strain. [Interruption.] Order! [Laughter.] The phone ringing was not a set-up, I promise you.

The Executive must be allowed to carry out their mandate when it is given by the people, but Members of Parliament must also be allowed to scrutinise legislation and hold the Government to account. The Speaker has a crucial role in getting that balance right. If there is a logjam, the Speaker should help Parliament to find a way through—to bring parties together to solve the problem. In all the posts I have held, I have been a conciliator; as Speaker, I would douse the flames, not pour petrol on them—a stabilising, unifying Speaker, and a Speaker from the north so that the public see that Parliament is about the whole country, not just London. And the last woman from the north did a pretty good job.

To gain respect from the public, we must show each other respect. The next Speaker must lead by the example she sets, changing the tone and lowering the temperature when the House gets overheated. As Deputy Speaker, I have tried to do that; I hope Members feel I have been impartial, not impatient.

As Deputy Speaker, I have seen tempers rise if there is too much disruption of business. Urgent questions are an important innovation of our last Speaker, but I have seen Members become frustrated, having worked hard on a speech only to end up being squeezed by a three-minute time limit. Urgent business must be debated when it is urgent, but UQs and statements should not take hours, neither should PMQs—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] If a Member does not get called, they should get priority next time, and newer Members should not always have to wait until last to be called. All our constituencies have the same right to be heard.

Parliament should be a workplace free from bullying and harassment. The Commission must be at the centre of changing the culture of Parliament. It should be accessible to Members and staff and the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority should stop getting in the way of Members doing their jobs. MPs who are parents or have caring responsibilities need proper support; we must become a modern, family-friendly workplace.

My dad was a headteacher in Doncaster and I bump into people he taught all the time. He is remembered not as a fierce disciplinarian, but as someone who was fair, encouraging and trusted—not a bad legacy. My ambition as Speaker would be to follow his example: not seek the limelight, but build trust.

Grenfell Tower Inquiry

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Colleagues will see that many hon. and right hon. Members wish to speak in this debate. Time is limited so I will impose a five-minute time limit after the speech from the Scottish National party Front Bench, and that time limit may have to be reduced.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. As the next speaker is the constituency MP, I will remove the time limit, but I know the hon. Lady is aware of the time pressures. I call Emma Dent Coad.

--- Later in debate ---

[Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)]

May I just check whether, in line with the standard protocol, the hon. Lady advised my right hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (James Cleverly), whom she has referred to by name rather than by constituency, that she would mention him in her speech?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I believe that the hon. Lady referred to the Mayor. Did she use those words?

[Eddie Hughes]

And James Cleverly.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am not sure whether the hon. Lady used an actual name, but if so, that would be incorrect. The right hon. Gentleman was here earlier, but I am sure she will bear in mind that it is important not to refer to right hon. and hon. Members by name.

[Emma Dent Coad]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I would also like to name the previous Fire Ministers and Housing Ministers Brandon Lewis and Gavin Barwell, and Eric Pickles, the then Secretary of State, who turned a deaf ear to pleas about the fire cuts, as well as our current Fire Minister, whom I have had many conversations with. I feel that I have spent two years—I apologise for this—shouting into a void.

I also name the former Kensington and Chelsea cabinet member in charge of the refurbishment, Rock Feilding-Mellen, a man whom we have no love for in North Kensington. He abandoned his fourth home, a modest London crash-pad, which he had bought for cash, that now overlooks the shrouds of the Grenfell Tower he was so keen to improve the appearance of. He is a man who called my beautiful Golborne ward a “ghetto”, but he can sleep at night safe in one of his three stately homes, one of which appears to be a castle. He is a man who demanded good prices on the Grenfell Tower refurbishment, and I am sure this will come out in the second phase of the inquiry in two years’ time.

I also name the past leader of the council, Nick Paget-Brown, a man who was happy to spend £250,000 on pre-Raphaelite paintings, but as the tower blazed behind him on that horrible morning—as my neighbours burned to death behind him—he said on camera that the residents had been offered sprinklers and refused them, which was an entirely provable black lie.

It is these people—cushioned by their millions, devoid of any conscience, protected by taxpayer-funded legal teams, reputation advisers and empathy coaches—who are the guilty ones here. They sleep easy in their beds, while half of North Kensington, including myself, have sleepless nights broken by nightmares, and tens of thousands of our fellow human beings across the country live in dangerous buildings, some of whom have put their life savings into them—all lost. Those I have named and the system they represent built a bonfire, lit the match and stood by wagging their fingers as firefighters, ill-trained and ill-equipped for a situation that should never have happened, ran into an inferno to save lives.

This interim report has failed us, as far as I am concerned. It does nothing to protect people tonight or into the future. In addition to protecting corporate interests and declining to look into potential dodgy dealings or even possible corruption, which is for police to investigate, it fails even to support the recommendations that would stop this man-made atrocity happening again. There are some things that could have been done at this stage, and they have not been done. Why should we wait another two years for that? These failures of corporate interests, the complacency of politicians over many years and the failures of this report mean, to my mind, that Grenfell 2 could happen tomorrow. I wonder whether they, if their children were living in a flat in the sky wrapped in solid petrol, would wake up to the potential disaster and legislate now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Just a reminder that if right hon. and hon. Members are to refer to other right hon. or hon. Members who have not been in the debate, they should give them notice of that. I now impose a four-minute time limit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I am sorry; after the next speaker, I will have to reduce the time limit to three minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Jenrick]

I am afraid I cannot give way; I have only a couple of moments left.

The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne says, “Or else?” We have said—the Prime Minister reiterated this today—that those building owners who do not take action should face the full force of the law. Local authorities should use the enforcement powers they have, and my Department stands ready to support any local authority that wishes to do that. We will name those building owners that are not remediating ACM cladding at the pace that is required and take enforcement action against them. It is, as I have said previously, frankly shameful that £600 million of taxpayers’ money is now at their disposal to remove this dangerous cladding and yet some are prevaricating. We must and we will take action.

In the broader context, which we will learn about in the next phase, I want to see Dame Judith Hackitt’s independent review implemented in full. It will be through our building safety legislation that was announced in the Queen’s Speech. Building owners must now assess the safety of their buildings and take action if that is required.

A number of hon. Members raised the rehousing of the victims and survivors of the Grenfell tragedy. I can report that 95% of the 201 households who lost their homes have been permanently rehoused. Today, nine households remain to be permanently rehoused. It would be wrong of me to set out their cases before the House, but I know each of their individual circumstances and my Department and I will continue to scrutinise and to challenge the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea to ensure that action is taken and hat these individuals, when it is right for them, move into permanent housing of their choosing.

In the remaining seconds available to me, let me say in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead that we will be taking forward the social housing White Paper. That is an important step in providing security and dignity to individuals who feel that they have not been listened to and that their views are not respected. We are working with Grenfell United, which represents some of the victims of the Grenfell tragedy, to ensure that that is done right and that we make the changes that are required for future generations.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the report from the Grenfell Tower Inquiry.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill: Business of the House

Ordered,

That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on the Northern Ireland Budget Bill:

Timetable

(1) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be taken at today’s sitting in accordance with this Order.

(b) Notices of Amendments, new Clauses or new Schedules to be moved in Committee of the whole House may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second time.

(c) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.

(d) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.

Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put

(2) When the Bill has been read a second time:

(a) it shall, despite Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills not subject to a programme order), stand committed to a Committee of the whole House without any Question being put;

(b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice of an Instruction has been given.

(3) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the whole House, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.

(b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put.

(4) If, following proceedings in Committee of the whole House and any proceedings on Consideration of the Bill, a legislative grand committee withholds consent to the Bill or any Clause or Schedule of the Bill or any amendment made to the Bill, the House shall proceed to Reconsideration of the Bill without any Question being put.

(5) If, following Reconsideration of the Bill:

(a) a legislative grand committee withholds consent to any Clause or Schedule of the Bill or any amendment made to the Bill (but does not withhold consent to the whole Bill and, accordingly, the Bill is amended in accordance with Standing Order No.83N(6)), and

(b) a Minister of the Crown indicates his or her intention to move a minor or technical amendment to the Bill, the House shall proceed to consequential Consideration of the Bill without any Question being put.

(6) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (1), the Chairman or Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply:

(a) any Question already proposed from the Chair;

(b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed;

(c) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a Minister of the Crown;

(d) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded; and shall not put any other questions, other than the question on any motion described in paragraph (17)(a) of this Order.

(7) On a Motion so made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.

(8) if two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (6)(c) on successive amendments moved or Motions made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chairman or Speaker shall instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments or Motions.

(9) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (6)(d) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, the Chairman shall instead put a single Question in relation to those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately on any Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the Crown has signified an intention to leave out. Consideration of Lords Amendments

(10) (a) Any Lords Amendments to the Bill may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly.

(b) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed.

(11) Paragraphs (2) to (11) of Standing Order No. 83F (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (10) of this Order.

Subsequent stages

(12) (a) Any further Message from the Lords on the Bill may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly.

(b) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed.

(13) Paragraphs (2) to (9) of Standing Order No. 83G (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (12) of this Order.

Reasons Committee

(14) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H (Programme orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any committee to be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings have been brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order.

Miscellaneous

(15) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to proceedings on the Bill.

(16) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies.

(17) (a) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the provisions of this Order.

(b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion.

(c) Such a motion may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly.

(d) The Question on such a Motion shall be put forthwith; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (c) shall thereupon be resumed.

(e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to proceedings on such a Motion.

(18) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of the Crown.

(b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.

(19) No debate shall be held in accordance with Standing Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) at today’s sitting after this Order has been agreed.

(20) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.

(21) No private business may be considered at today’s sitting after this Order has been agreed.—(Julian Smith.)

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Under the terms of the Business of the House motion that the House has just passed, amendments for the Committee stage of the Bill may now be accepted by the Clerks at the Table only. Members may continue to table amendments up until the start of proceedings in Committee of the Whole House. For the benefit of everyone, however, I would encourage Members to table their amendments as soon as possible. The Chairman of Ways and Means will take a provisional decision on selection and grouping on the basis of amendments tabled a quarter of an hour after the beginning of the Second Reading debate, and that provisional selection list will be made available in the Vote Office and on the parliamentary website before the start of proceedings in Committee. If necessary, an updated amendment paper will be made available as soon as possible during proceedings in Committee.