Prorogation (Disclosure of Communications)

John Bercow Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Commons Chamber

Emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24)

[Mr Speaker]

We now come to the motion in the name of Mr Dominic Grieve and others, to be moved under Standing Order No. 24. I remind the House that a paper with the terms of the motion has been distributed.

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[Mr Grieve]

No, I will continue. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We must conduct this debate in a seemly manner.

[Mr Grieve]

I will give way to my right hon. and learned Friend in a moment.

In addition, it is a question about what this House requests. I am perfectly aware that sometimes I may say that the Government may be acting abusively, so I am the first to understand that there is a capacity for this House to act abusively. However, what is being asked for, and ought to be respected by any self-respecting Government employee, is that if they are asked to look and see whether they have carried out a communication, within the relevant request, that goes to their official work, they ought to be willing to provide it. It should not be a question of coercion; it should be a question of willingness. If we move from that, that will be the destruction of another convention under which this country has been run, and it will be greatly to our detriment.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The point of order trumps the attempted intervention even of an illustrious Law Officer.

[Kevin Brennan]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is it a point of order or a point of information to point out that the Prime Minister’s special adviser, Dominic Cummings, asked to examine the private text messages on the telephone of a Government employee?

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman has made his own point in his own way, and he may wish to expatiate further on that matter if he catches my eye in the course of the debate. Meanwhile, it is on the record and will be widely observed.

[Mr Grieve]

I give way to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General.

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[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean) has said two things: first, that people are thwarting democracy; and, secondly, that hon. and right hon. Members are not being honest in the arguments they advance. Presumably she is referring to the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who is sitting some three Benches behind her.

[Mr Speaker]

I hope the right hon. Lady will forgive me, but I was immersed—there is no point in my pretending otherwise—in a Socratic dialogue with an hon. Gentleman, as the Chair sometimes is. Therefore I did not hear what the hon. Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean) said. I find it hard to credit the notion that she would impute dishonour to a colleague, particularly to a colleague on her own Benches, and certainly she should not do so. At this stage I have to declare her innocent, because there is no evidence of guilt, but nevertheless it is useful to be reminded of the dictate of “Erskine May” that moderation and good humour in the use of parliamentary language are reliable watchwords in conducting our debates.

[Rachel Maclean]

Thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker. I endeavour to follow it and, should my words have been misinterpreted, I of course withdraw them immediately.

I made the point that there are divisions on this issue in the House, and the Members who are trying to bring forward these processes are the Members who are trying to stop Brexit. Some of them are actually quite honest and open about that, which is fine. That is their policy. Labour is now a party of remain, which is fine. It would be clearer if Labour put it to the test in a general election and let us see the public’s verdict, but unfortunately they are too frightened to do that.

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[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sure the hon. Lady did not want to mislead the House, but she said that it was “hypothetical” that the special adviser Mr Dominic Cummings had been found in contempt of Parliament. That is not hypothetical—it is a fact.

[Mr Speaker]

Yes, there is not an unpurged contempt, and my recollection of the particular case, whose details I am broadly familiar with, is that he was not invited to apologise, but there was a contempt, and that is a matter of unarguable and incontrovertible fact. These matters came my way recently, in circumstances with which I need not trouble the House, but I do know of what I speak and there was a contempt.

[Rachel Maclean]

Thank you for that clarification, Mr Speaker. The question I was asked in the earlier intervention was how many I have worked with. I have not worked with Dominic Cummings, so I was answering a question in a quite straightforward way. I have made my point and I will bring my remarks to a close. I will not be supporting the Humble Address, for the reasons I have laid out, and the House would do well not to support it.

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[Joanna Cherry]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but I would take the argument further, because the shabby practices of this Government and the creaking of the British constitution underline, in my mind, the need for my country to be independent of this mess.

Even as we have been speaking this afternoon, it has been reported on Twitter—this point has already been alluded to—that unidentified No. 10 sources are saying that even if we pass this motion for an Humble Address tonight, they will not comply with it. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am extremely grateful to the hon. and learned Lady, but I gently point out to her that, as there is a significant number of other Members waiting to contribute, and as the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has every right and reasonable expectation to think that he will have 10 minutes or so to speak, I am cautiously optimistic that she is approaching her peroration.

[Joanna Cherry]

You are correct, Mr Speaker; I am about to draw my remarks to a close.

I am a student more of Scottish history than of English history, but our histories are bound together, and I know enough about English history to know that it was secret, unaccountable whispers of poison that brought down Edward II and Richard II. I suspect that this Prime Minister will be brought down by secret, unaccountable whispers of poison, such as those in the unattributable briefings we heard this afternoon. Let us make sure that this House and the courts see the contents of the secret whispers of poison that preceded this Prorogation, so that we can all see the real reasons why the House of Commons has been prorogued by an Executive terrified of scrutiny.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Now, a self-denying ordinance would help. I think that the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) can probably deliver himself of his thoughts on this matter within five minutes.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Has the right hon. Gentleman finished his oration?

[Mr Paterson]

I have, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

We are deeply obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. We now need very short speeches, of no more than four minutes.

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[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

Let me see—[Interruption.] Oh, I do beg the pardon of the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare); I think he used to make those sorts of coughing noises when he was at Oxford with my wife 30 years ago. Yes, very good—he has three or four minutes now.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

We need to have even shorter speeches, because the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster must have his opportunity to respond. I am sure that a great intellectual colossus such as the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) can express her thoughts in two minutes.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Speaker]

I am afraid that there needs to be a two-minute limit.

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[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

What an invidious choice. I call Dr Rosena Allin-Khan.

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[Michael Gove]

No, no, no. [Hon. Members: “Give way.”] Mr Speaker, I reserve the right to take any intervention I wish, and I will in a second. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is so much noise that it would be understandable if the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster were unable to hear the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who was bidding to intervene. Whether he accepts the intervention is a matter for him, but it is important that attempted interventions are audible.

[Michael Gove]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I shall not take any interventions because it is important that I make progress.

I want to underline that these propositions are being put forward by people who say—and I believe them—that they take the rule of law seriously, but in their desire to rifle through the private correspondence of individuals, they set aside legal precedent, set aside the good workings of government, and set aside the rights of individuals.

Let me turn briefly to the particular part—

[Ian C. Lucas]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

I hope it is a point of order, not a point of frustration.

[Ian C. Lucas]

It is a point of order. I wrote to the Secretary of State on 5 August asking him a specific question—when he knew about the illegal payments of Vote Leave. He has not answered my letter, and he refuses to take an intervention. I have raised it in this debate again. How will I get a straight answer, on trust, from the Secretary of State?

[Mr Speaker]

Persist, man! Persist by asking further questions or sending follow-up letters—keep buggering on at all times.

[Michael Gove]

In his speech, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) answered his own question. He explained that I had said to Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News exactly when I knew about these payments. He can ask as many times as he likes for me to repeat the answer, but I gave the answer months ago.

Talking of politicians who cannot see what is in front of them, we come to Yellowhammer. The point has been made that it is critical that we share with this House as much as we can, and I am absolutely committed to that. In the evidence that I gave to the Exiting the European Union Committee last Thursday—