Massereene Barracks Shooting 2009
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(9 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I commend the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on securing this important debate.
I begin by offering my sincere condolences to the families of both Sapper Patrick Azimkar and Sapper Mark Quinsey. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland met Patrick’s parents recently. I know that they are taking a close interest in today’s proceedings, and that my right hon. Friend was deeply moved by the account that they gave. Their personal strength and dignity at this difficult time is remarkable. Five years on, I am sure that the pain that they have suffered will not be erased. It is a particularly cruel irony that two fine young men should be struck down on home soil just as they were preparing to serve their country in Helmand.
Before I address the points raised in the right hon. Gentleman’s speech, I assure the House that this Government take the threat posed by terrorists extremely seriously. Northern Ireland-related terrorism is a tier 1 risk in the national security strategy, meaning that it is of the highest priority to this Government, as it was to the Government in which the right hon. Gentleman served. Five years after the Massereene shootings, the threat level remains at “severe”. However, progress has been made, as I am sure many of the hon. Members here will attest. As a result of the sterling and often unsung work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and MI5, working in close co-operation with police in the Republic of Ireland and others, lives are undoubtedly saved and the ill intent of violent criminals thwarted or mitigated.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Some of the names of those involved in the murder have been mentioned. David Jordan, who is in prison in the Republic, has also been mentioned. A European arrest warrant has been issued for him on his release from prison. Can the Minister confirm that all of those allegedly involved in these murders, in the Republic of Ireland or wherever they may be, will be brought to justice?
Dr Murrison
That is clearly the firm intent of both the Westminster Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. Violent terrorists, wherever they are, must be called to account. I know that all the agencies that I have mentioned, and others, are bent on ensuring that such wicked individuals are brought to account and face the full rigour of the law, wherever they are.
Lady Hermon
I am most grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Can he please give a categorical assurance that none of those suspected of involvement in the murder of those two courageous young British soldiers at Massereene are sitting with a letter, familiarly referred to as a comfort letter, signed by the Northern Ireland Office and sent to on-the-runs?
Dr Murrison
Given that they have faced trial, one must assume that they are not. However, I cannot tell the hon. Lady whether those names appear on the list of 200 people issued with such letters. Given that they have faced trial, it seems unlikely to me.
Before I come to the burden of my response to the right hon. Gentleman’s points—
Dr Murrison
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I have only a few minutes to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s points, so I would like to crack on.
It must be understood that those who continue to favour violence and terrorism in Northern Ireland are few in number. Those individuals are acting in defiance of the clear will of the people of Ireland, both north and south, and holding democracy, decency and the rule of law in contempt.
Turning to the important issue of barracks security, many of the points that the right hon. Gentleman raised in his speech are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive under the devolved settlement. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on areas for which I do not have direct responsibility. However, responsibility for the armed forces is not devolved, so I will start by saying that the Government take the safety of military personnel very seriously indeed. Security measures for members of the armed forces are made and set in accordance with a specific threat level relating to them, which is kept under regular review.
In Northern Ireland, armed guarding and security is undertaken by the Northern Ireland Security Guard Service, which consists of Ministry of Defence employees specifically trained for the job. That is similar to guarding provision in the rest of the UK, and it is not accurate to say that the use of civilian MOD employees results in an inferior service to what would be provided by soldiers.
Security measures at Massereene barracks on the night of the incident were set and implemented in accordance with the threat level pertaining to the Army at that time. At the time of the murders of Sapper Azimkar and Sapper Quinsey, those guarding the barracks carried pistols. I will return to that point in a minute. Security guidance for personnel visiting Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has been reviewed since the incident; there has also been a security review at all establishments in Northern Ireland, as the right hon. Gentleman would expect. It has led to the introduction of a number of measures in order to match the increased sector-specific threat assessment following the attack, including the introduction of long-barrelled weapons for the NISGS. Where required, security infrastructure improvements have also been made to barracks in Northern Ireland.
Although the Army originally intended to hold a service inquiry to examine events leading up to the incident, it was quite properly put on hold pending criminal investigations, following which it was decided that as a result of the enhanced security measures that had been put in place, no further lessons of consequence could be learned. However, in accordance with normal practice, a learning account exercise was undertaken. It recommended a number of further security measures, such as arming the NISGS with rifles.
An assurance inspection was carried out in June 2012 at Massereene, which was deemed satisfactory. The barracks were then sold in 2013 to Randox Laboratories Ltd, which I believe is relevant in this case. In 2013, the director of personnel services for the Army judged that as a result of the enhanced security measures, the closure of the barracks, the two PSNI investigations and the passage of time, a service inquiry, whose purpose would be to learn lessons and not to apportion blame, would not add materially, a view endorsed by the Adjutant-General and noted by the then Minister of State for the Armed Forces. I understand that the families have been invited to meet to discuss the reasons behind the Army’s decision. I feel that the families may find it useful to have that meeting, and the offer remains open to them.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to how the investigation of the Massereene shootings was carried out. I emphasise that I cannot comment authoritatively on matters devolved to the Northern Ireland Executive. Justice is devolved, and with it the PSNI and Forensic Science Northern Ireland. However, I know that the PSNI continues to investigate the murders of both men at Massereene barracks, and the cases are still open. Both the PSNI and this Government share the families’ frustration that no one has yet been brought to book for that heinous attack. It is my sincere hope and expectation that justice will ultimately be brought to bear in this case.
I cannot comment on the specific concerns raised in connection with the investigation and how it was conducted or discuss specific concerns about forensics, as it could affect any future investigation. However, it is my understanding that the senior investigating officer tasked to the case has met with Patrick Azimkar’s parents to discuss their concerns in detail. Furthermore, as a result of the judgment by Justice Deeny in the second trial, both the PSNI and Forensic Science NI conducted a review to examine the issues raised. I am assured that all the recommendations contained in the reviews have been implemented.
I am also aware of the concerns raised by the Azimkar family about the trials, re-trial and acquittal in the case, but I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman, as a lawyer, will agree with the proposition that judicial independence is fundamental to criminal justice. Judges must be free to act without pressure, threat or interference. In light of that, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on either the judicial decision or the process, and “Erskine May” specifically discourages me from doing so, but I too remain disappointed and dismayed that no one has yet been made accountable for those appalling crimes. I want convictions, and very few in Northern Ireland want terrorists to get away with their barbarity. It is cause for regret that although Northern Ireland has moved on, its public face is still marred by its association with violence.
I will turn briefly to the use of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland, an important point raised by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech. As he knows, there is now no system of Diplock courts in Northern Ireland, as they were abolished in 2007. What we have in Northern Ireland is a system that allows for non-jury trials in specific circumstances where it is deemed necessary to secure a fair trial. The decision is not taken lightly, and it is made by the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland based on the facts of the case in question. That was the case with the trial of those accused in relation to the Massereene shootings.
Although there is rightly a general presumption in favour of a jury trial, the non-jury system is generally recognised as removing the risk of perverse verdicts by reason of intimidation or bias. Furthermore, non-jury trials have the advantage of a written judgment explaining the reasons for conviction or acquittal and are an effective way of securing a fair trial for all parties and mitigating the risk of intimidation or subversion of the judicial process. However, the current non-jury trial provisions are due to expire in July 2015, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will review the current provisions in the coming months.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the support being provided to the families—
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. I thank all Members who have attended this important debate.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Murrison Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
1. What assessment she has made of the value for money of the Saville inquiry.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)
When the previous Government set up the tribunal in 1998 to investigate the tragic events of 30 January 1972, no one could have anticipated that it would take 12 years to complete and cost more than £191 million. The inquiry produced the definitive account of the tragic events of that day, the value of which is very clear.
David Mowat
I thank the Minister for that answer. One hundred and ninety-one million pounds would have paid for 10,000 nurses for a year or, indeed, transformed a large part of the economy of Northern Ireland. It is clear that the Government completely failed to control the costs. Can the Minister confirm that never again will an inquiry be set up with no attempt whatever to control costs and that the relevant civil servants understand that as well?
Dr Murrison
Notwithstanding my remarks about the value of the inquiry, the Government have been clear that although each case will be considered on its merits, we should indeed resist further costly, open-ended inquiries. I note that the Inquiries Act 2005 will help in that regard.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
May I welcome the Minister to his new position? Does he agree that the taxpayer is still paying for the ongoing costs of the Saville inquiry—as a reply I received from the Secretary of State in the past few weeks made clear—10 years after the last witness left the stand and after the £191 million was expended?
Dr Murrison
Yes, I can only say that the Saville inquiry was set up under the previous Administration, under rules that existed at that time, and that Lord Saville was given free rein—rightly—in his independent inquiry. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that, so many years after this began, the costs are still coming in. Nevertheless, the value of the Saville inquiry is clear, and we need to understand that.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
May I welcome the Minister to his new role? In order to deal with the issues of the past in a more comprehensive way, we obviously require some momentum to take the discussions between the parties in Northern Ireland forward. What role will the Northern Ireland Office play in trying to bring parties back together, when some have walked away from the challenge of dealing with the past in a comprehensive manner?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Lady is absolutely right that a long-term peaceful settlement relies entirely on co-operation between the parties. The Northern Ireland Office has done, and will continue to do, everything in its power to bring the parties together so that we can ensure a peaceful and prosperous future for the people of Northern Ireland.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
2. What recent assessment she has made of the outlook for the Northern Ireland economy.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
7. What recent discussions she has had with the Minister for Education in the Northern Ireland Executive on shared education.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had a number of discussions with the First Minister, Deputy First Minister and Northern Ireland Minister for Education on this issue. Shared education featured prominently at the recent meeting of the Prime Minister, Secretary of State, First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Through the capital borrowing provisions in the economic pact, the Government have supported a number of initiatives to promote shared education, including the Lisanelly project in Omagh. I look forward to visiting Lisanelly shortly. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are very serious matters affecting the people of Northern Ireland, and it would be a mark of respect for the people of Northern Ireland if the questions and the answers could be heard.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I welcome my hon. Friend to his new position. Clearly, one key issue in Northern Ireland is the future of education, so can he set out his plan for how he is going to encourage the breaking down of the divide in terms of the sectarian side of schooling in Northern Ireland?
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that it is important that we move towards shared and integrated education where the parents wish that that should happen. He will know from the pact, and from the update that is to be published shortly, that £100 million of additional borrowing has been made available as part of that pact for shared education and shared housing, both of which will be of help.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
When the Secretary of State meets and has further discussions with the Minister for Education in Northern Ireland, will she ask him to expedite the digging of the first sod of the Parkhall integrated college in Antrim as soon as possible, because that new build has been announced for some time, and the staff, pupils and community are anxious for the work to commence right away?
Dr Murrison
Through the noise I think I just about made that out, Mr Speaker. I am sure that Hansard will record it accurately and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will take note of it for her next meeting with the Minister for Education.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
8. What recent progress the Government have made on reducing youth unemployment levels in Northern Ireland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)
Tackling youth unemployment remains a critical issue, but specific measures to address it in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the Executive. The Government are reducing the largest structural deficit in UK peacetime history, and that, more than anything, will help deliver a sustainable economic recovery and so directly assist young people to get into employment.
Ms Ritchie
I welcome the new Minister to his position. Almost one in four young people in Northern Ireland are out of work. Many are forced to seek agency jobs on zero-hours contracts, while others are taking the path to emigration because of the downturn in the construction industry. Will the Secretary of State and the Minister have discussions with the Chancellor about the need to reduce VAT on tourism, as such a reduction would provide an opportunity for these young people to remain in Northern Ireland, working in tourism attractions and so on?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that. She will of course have seen today’s figures, which show that although youth unemployment in Northern Ireland is 20.4%—that is too high—it has dropped by 2.1% over the quarter. I am sure she will warmly welcome both that and the drop by 1% to 6.7% in the overall level of unemployment in Northern Ireland—the 18th successive drop in the claimant count. I hope she warmly welcomes that, as right hon. and hon. Members from across the House certainly will.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Young Protestants in Northern Ireland are experiencing great difficulty in seeking employment. Will the Minister confirm the steps that the Government are taking to help those Protestant youths gain worthwhile skills, training and employment?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We need to work at school level and to build the number of apprenticeships in Northern Ireland to ensure that the figure to which I have referred, which remains too high—albeit fairly good in comparison with many other countries in Europe—comes down dramatically.
Mr Speaker
The last question relates to the commemoration of the first world war, so I hope that there will be respectful attention.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
9. What role her Department is taking in commemorations to mark the centenary of the first world war.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr Andrew Murrison)
The Northern Ireland Office is committed to assisting in the delivery of the Government’s programme for the first world war centenary. I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) for his work on the Prime Minister’s advisory group. The Department is also co-ordinating closely with the Irish Government on the centenary and the wider decade of commemorations in the island of Ireland.
Andrew Stephenson
Earby town council in my constituency has given the freedom of the town to all world war veterans. Will the Minister join me in welcoming the initiative, and will he encourage local councils across Northern Ireland to consider doing the same?
Dr Murrison
I very much welcome the move of my hon. Friend’s local authority in that respect. It is absolutely right. There is great potential over this centenary period for local authorities to mark appropriately the contribution made by local people. That goes for Northern Ireland as it does for the rest of the country.