Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent Excerpts

Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the declassification of files which stated that the Government “turned a blind eye” to serious crimes of the IRA in 2001, whether they will refer any murder cases to the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

My Lords, under the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, the commission is responsible for Troubles-related investigations for the period 1966 to 1998. Any alleged criminality which took place after 10 April 1998, including that described by the noble Lord, remains a matter for the PSNI. The UK Government do not comment on national archive releases or releases relating to previous Governments.

However, I want to take this opportunity to pay thanks to my noble friend the former Secretary of State at that time, as well as to all Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, for their role in the incredibly challenging work of helping to maintain peace and delivering and implementing the Good Friday agreement, including the effective decommissioning of weapons. We owe them an immense debt of gratitude and should never forget the context in which they were operating.

[Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard (UUP)]

My Lords, last year, the Conservative Government brought a Northern Ireland legacy Bill to this House and this Parliament. I did not support it because of limited immunity, but at least they had the courage and the decency to bring it to this House for debate and voting instead of having a de facto amnesty. The noble Lord, Lord Reid, at the time warned Prime Minister Blair of the consequences of having Sinn Féin, linked to a terrorist organisation, in government. I ask the Minister: at that time, because of the individuals involved in that meeting, does she accept that Gerry Adams was a senior figure in the IRA?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that I cannot comment on anything to do with the archive. As to the matter he raises, it is currently a matter of ongoing court proceedings.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Elliott, for his helpful Question, which allows me to reply. Would the Minister confirm to the House—if it needs confirmation—that the conduct of investigations and prosecutions in Northern Ireland, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, was under the exclusive control of the police service, the prosecution service and the courts, and that Ministers had no locus, no power and no desire to interfere with that process? Will she accept that the transition from war to peace is not always easy and that what Ministers did, accompanied by the work of people such as Lord Trimble and John Hume, was to persevere in a political peace process, whatever the odds, which has resulted in inestimable benefits for all the people in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My noble friend, as ever, makes a series of excellent points. He is absolutely right. He knows better than I do, as he served our country in government in numerous roles at Cabinet level, that the police have complete operational independence. We owe all those who operated as politicians in Northern Ireland and the UK Government and who worked so hard in the most difficult of circumstances to deliver peace a huge debt of gratitude. Every day, we now have to live up to the promise of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the spirit of the Stormont House agreement to make sure the people of Northern Ireland and Great Britain have the peace that was so difficultly earned.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister may know that Gerry Adams is suing the BBC for accusing him of being—I am not quite sure how to put to it—not necessarily on the side of the good. Can the Minister therefore help the BBC in its defence, particularly in the case of Jean McConville, dragged from her home in front of her young children and murdered by IRA gangs? Can she look at how much we can help the BBC against Gerry Adams, particularly with respect to what he was doing with the Jean McConville case?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Lord served for many years in the other place and will be very aware that I cannot comment on ongoing court proceedings, but he does raise a very important case—that of the McConville family. Every time such cases are raised, we need to remember the impact they have on the families concerned and all victims of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Three and a half thousand people lost their lives; families were for ever destroyed, and many people were hurt. There is a responsibility on all of us to make sure they get justice where they can and get to find their truth too.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, given that the Minister is quite correct in saying that the ICRIR cannot deal with cases post-1998, and given that the PSNI budget has been so seriously reduced that it is now operating with 75% of the officers it should have, can she commit to the development of ring-fenced funding to enable the PSNI to deal with the cases referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Elliott, in order that justice may be done?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, with Stormont up and running, how finances are allocated and spent is a matter for it. That includes the PSNI budget. The noble Baroness will be aware that at the spending review we increased additional security funding for the PSNI for this financial year by £37.8 million. She will be further aware there are ongoing conversations between the NIO and the Northern Ireland Executive about how we can keep working together, but part of this is a question for the Northern Ireland Executive.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support the question from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and point out to the Minister that there are national security issues that remain the purview of our national Government in dealing with funding. I congratulate the Minister on the many strings to her bow this afternoon. Despite desperate attempts to rewrite the history of Northern Ireland during what were euphemistically called “the Troubles”, I know that she will agree that Northern Ireland society did not break down during that campaign of criminality—not a war—and because of that, the line was held by our security forces and services, and I am proud to be a daughter of the RUC. Given all that, can she give us an update on the stage that the Ministry of Defence is at with the Clonoe inquest review? I understand that the Ministry of Defence was to take judicial review proceedings—could she give us an update on that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a really important point that I know is of huge concern to the veterans community, both those who served in Operation Banner and more broadly. With regard to the specifics of the inquest, the veterans involved in the Clonoe inquest and the Secretary of State for Defence have applied for a judicial review of the coroner’s verdict and findings, which do not properly reflect the context of the incident nor the very difficult circumstances in which members of the Armed Forces served in Northern Ireland. The MoD is also funding the veterans in question to seek the judicial review and providing them with welfare support.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that trust is an essential element in the process of dealing with the past in Northern Ireland, and does she recognise that the current lack of legal certainty regarding the repeal of the legacy Act is adding to a lack of trust? Will she confirm therefore that it is still the Government’s intention to bring forward new primary legislation on legacy issues during this parliamentary Session?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. Everything in the delivery of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the ongoing peace in Northern Ireland is about trust and bringing people together. With regards to forthcoming legislation, we were clear in our manifesto, and we have been clear by having it referenced in the King’s Speech. This Government are committed to bringing forward the timing of the legislation. However, noble Lords will appreciate that, as my Chief Whip is sitting two feet away from me, I am going to confirm: when parliamentary time allows.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, dealing with the here and now, can the Minister confirm that the Government’s decision to reopen legacy inquests, alongside the new legacy commission, inevitably risks elderly veterans being dragged back into coroners’ courts over events that happened as far back as half a century ago—yes or no? When the Tánaiste said this week that the UK and Irish Governments are working strenuously to find a “landing zone” on legacy issues, can she confirm that this will include full Irish co-operation with the legacy commission on information recovery?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows the answer to the first question. With regards to conversations with the Irish Government, he will be aware that we are working closely with them as the co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement. At the recent BIIGC, both Governments reflected on the positive and constructive bilateral discussions which have taken place, as well as the substantive progress towards reaching agreement on a joint comprehensive approach to legacy issues consistent with the principles of the Stormont House agreement. We can see part of that change through the memorandum of understanding that was issued to the Omagh bombing inquiry, which the Government viewed as a significant step forward. We look forward to further enhancements in this regard—for example, legislation on co-operation.