Baroness Burt of Solihull
Main Page: Baroness Burt of Solihull (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Baroness Burt of Solihull's debates with the HM Treasury
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Chris Leslie
Yes, payday lending is indeed a facet of the broader problem. I am not sure about the trends and how things have been moving—the hon. Gentleman may have other statistics that it would be worth sharing if he makes a contribution to this debate—but there is no doubt about the trajectory of that growth, which has been quite marked, which I know is a concern for all Members, in all parts of the House.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Government Members share Opposition Members’ concerns about this issue, and we want to do the best that we can. However, new clause 11 asks for a report on the impact of all tax and non-tax measures on the cost of high-cost lending when we have not yet heard the response to the Government’s call for evidence. I am hopeful, as are many Members, that this will address the issue and provide further help, so does the hon. Gentleman not feel that his new clause might be a little premature?
Chris Leslie
The hon. Lady makes an interesting point, because it is important that we engage with the Government properly on this agenda. We are still waiting for that report, although I hope that new clause 11 has been framed in such a way as to be pretty harmless and to command widespread support. Ultimately, all that we are looking for is a review of the circumstances; and indeed, some of the tax measures that may need to be included—although they may not—would not currently be part of the arrangements that I understand her hon. Friends are reviewing. New clause 11 is simply about ensuring the widest possible capability for those policy levers that the Government would be able to consider. There are so many measures necessary to help protect the consumer. They include not just action on payday lending or interest rates, for example, but the support needed for financial literacy education—something to which the Government have regrettably taken the axe, by terminating the £26 million financial inclusion fund. That decision is a particular regret, given that it will hit citizens advice bureaux up and down the country, along with other face-to-face advice agencies. Indeed, the financial inclusion fund was an essential bit of seedcorn funding, so I would be grateful for the Minister’s clarification about its future.
Lorely Burt
I entirely agree. I had a meeting with Wonga the other week. The company advocates a maximum of three rollovers. It is in nobody’s interest, not even the lender’s, to have people in a cycle of debt, because they are less and less able to pay it off. Perhaps something like that could be included in the regulations.
Chris Leslie
The sector itself ought rapidly to produce suggestions for self-regulation. I hope the new clause will make the sector aware of the seriousness with which the House takes the issue. We have had enough of people in desperate circumstances being exploited. The House of Commons passed a motion in February. We should pass the new clause, simply to ask for a review and a report on the range of regulatory and financial powers that the Government ought to take to stamp out some of the worst practices.
Customers need a fair deal from financial services generally, but our duty is to start with the people who are most at risk—the vulnerable and the exploited. If Parliament cannot stand up today to protect those most in need, who will?
Neil Parish
The hon. Gentleman is right that the advertising and promotion of these products is a great concern. These products can seriously damage someone’s financial health, because they not only get them into huge debt, with huge interest to pay, but can often prevent them from securing mainstream credit, which can affect them enormously.
I am not greatly in favour of regulation, but I do not think that we can stand idly by and let some of the most vulnerable people in the country be exploited. They are desperate for money, and people knock on the door and offer them it. In fairness, many of them do not look at all the details or consider the fact that they will have to pay such high interest if they do not repay the loans. They do not realise that they will probably be charged even more interest if the loan is renegotiated, and that if they do not pay on time the loans company is likely to impose huge fines. That is unacceptable in this day and age and we must do something about it.
About 50% of the population in Ireland are involved in credit unions. In the US and Canada, the figure is about 40%, in Australia and New Zealand it is about 25%, but in the UK it is only 2%. I know that the Government are looking into increasing the availability of credit unions across the country, but we need to act much faster. In the meantime, we have to act against these companies, the loan sharks, because people who take out the loans sometimes have to pay back 10, 20, 30 or 100 times as much as they originally borrowed.
If the loan sharks’ argument is that they lend on those terms because the people to whom they lend are a security risk, we must question whether they should lend the money in the first place, and certainly at such massive amounts of interest. They must take the view that if 25 of the 100 people to whom they lend are forced into bankruptcy they will make enough money from the other 75 to make a profit. Is that moral and right? The answer is certainly not. Regardless of one’s political persuasion, that cannot be right in this day and age.
I have mixed views on the new clause, but I do not want Ministers to wring their hands and say that there is nothing they can do. In fairness to the Government, I should point out that the Opposition cannot hold their heads high, because they had 13 years in which to do something about this issue. It is right for the coalition Government to take the issue on. Instead of wringing our hands and saying we can do nothing, let us do something.
Lorely Burt
My hon. Friend is talking, almost interchangeably, about loan sharks and high-cost credit lenders regulated by the FSA. The Government have put even more money into the loan shark operation to clear them from the streets. It is important that we do not mix the two, because whatever one thinks about high-cost credit loan companies they are at least regulated and we are doing things to improve them. Loan sharks are totally unacceptable in this country.
Neil Parish
I agree with the hon. Lady to some degree, but I say to her bluntly that charging 4,500% interest, whether it is done legally or not, is theft. As a farmer, perhaps I have slightly jaundiced views about bankers, who offer an umbrella when the sun is shining and want to take it away when it starts to rain. We cannot go on letting vulnerable people be exploited—it does not matter whether it is being done legally.
Stella Creasy
My hon. Friend is exactly right. It is not just evidence; the companies have specifically said that the lack of regulation in the UK compared with other countries makes it a target market for them.
We know that borrowing is becoming a problem for people. More than four in 10 people are worried about their current debt, and in recent months 4 million have taken on more debt than they ever have before. One third of families say that they have no emergency savings whatever. However, this debate is not about a lack of rainy-day money. The number of people who say that they are likely to exceed their overdraft limit has more than doubled in the past year, and the number of people who say that they are likely to use an unauthorised overdraft this month has nearly doubled since July last year, from 900,000 to 1.6 million.
That means that more people are getting into financial difficulties. In recent years, personal insolvency in the UK has reached a record high. On average, there are more than 160 personal insolvencies every year in each constituency, which is a dramatic increase since the start of the last decade.
New clause 11 covers not only those who are formally in financial difficulties but those who are affected by debt and who have not sought help. The proposal reflects the growing inequality in our society between those who can borrow affordably and those who cannot. Research by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills shows that most households have a debt-to-income ratio of 10% or less, but that one in five households have debts worth more than 100% of their annual household income. There is growing evidence that such households are using multiple forms of unsecured credit—a mixture of high-cost credit and credit cards. Thirteen per cent. have four or more types of debt.
The question for many of us is this: who is borrowing? Eleven per cent. of lone parents use non-mainstream loans compared with just 3% of households overall. The Consumer Credit Counselling Service tells us that one in eight people who contacted it during the first half of 2010 were claiming jobseeker’s allowance. However, one thing that might concern many hon. Members is the growing evidence that the people who are suffering in this market are not just those whose incomes have always been fragile, but many middle-class families. Experian data show that the biggest increase in insolvency is among those with suburban mindsets—people who are in work, married and have kids, and who are trying to make ends meet.
Lorely Burt
Is it a matter of regret to the hon. Lady that the previous Labour Government presided over the greatest expansion of consumer credit in the history of this country? In their 13 years, the previous Government tried to do a number of things, but rejected the proposal in new clause 11. Does she agree that this Government, one year in, should be given the opportunity to finish their consultation and make proposals of which she might approve?
Stella Creasy
I am interested in the hon. Lady’s impression that consumer credit is a bad thing, because I do not agree. I would also be interested in her views on research by the Office for Budget Responsibility, which shows that as a direct consequence of the Government’s Budgets an extra £10,000 of debt is being put on to households. Perhaps she would like to comment on the implications of that for family finances. No? Then I will continue.
The problem is not just the high-cost credit industry but the nature of the industry and the way in which it operates, which is causing so many problems. What most worries many Opposition Members is that so many families are struggling. Indeed, we know that 46% of families say that they do not earn enough in a month to pay all their bills. Crucially, of that 46%, 10% say that the reason they are struggling is the repayments on high-cost credit. It is those very products that are pushing them into financial difficulty.
For the avoidance of doubt, I say clearly that I am not trying to put Wonga and the other companies out of business. I do not hold with the constituent of mine who argued that we should learn a lesson from Dante and put them in the seventh circle of hell, but we can make the credit market fairer for all concerned. It is important to set out, therefore, the kind of companies we are talking about and just how quickly this industry is growing in the light of recent economic circumstances.
Many people know about payday lending—the form of credit whereby a borrower gives a creditor a cheque or an authorisation to make an automatic withdrawal from their bank account. That is used as security for a short-term loan to be repaid, supposedly on the next payday. It is a long-established form of credit in other countries, but it is relatively new to the UK—and it is growing rapidly. By 2009, the payday lending industry was worth more than £1.2 billion, and the figures I have gathered from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which were released under a freedom of information request rather than being put in the public domain, show that it is now worth £1.9 billion. Indeed, in its “Keeping the Plates Spinning” report, Consumer Focus estimates that payday lenders are expected to quadruple the scale of their operations in the UK in the next few years alone.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on initiating and devising this new clause. The UK is a long way behind other countries in its regulation of this sector. Action is being taken in the United States and elsewhere in Europe, and therefore increasing numbers of companies are seeing the UK as the ideal place to operate because they know we are behind in respect of regulation. Indeed, as they do not anticipate regulation any time soon, they also do not anticipate leaving the UK in the near future, and they consider now to be a good time to invest in the UK market. Therefore, BrightHouse says it will triple its number of high street shops here in the UK. That is not only a worry for consumers, who are, by and large, exploited by these companies; it is also a threat to our high streets, because I for one do not want my high street to have signs saying “Cash for gold” and shops such as BrightHouse; I do not want what I would call unscrupulous companies populating our high streets.
The high-cost lender lobby is lobbying within an inch of its life. It is inundating those of us who are speaking out on these issues with documents, offers to meet, conversations and phone calls about why it is right and we are wrong. However, Members who represent places such as Darlington see the effects week in, week out in our surgeries, so we know the impact that these companies are having. They are not doing what they do for the benefit of the consumer, as they would lead us to believe; they are doing it because it is a pretty good business for them. I do not have an issue with their having a good business and making money, but I do have an issue with people who are least able to make such financial decisions being exploited in this way, and that is what is happening.
I am not a big fan of Jeremy Kyle, but in the interests of research I have sat through a bit of morning television, and I was disgusted at what I saw on our screens. Such companies are deliberately targeting people who are at home during the day and who they know are on low incomes. They are making their products look affordable, easy and cheap, which they are certainly not, and, most disturbingly, they are making them look the norm. They are making these products appear to be an everyday solution of which people from all walks of life throughout the country are taking advantage. That is the single most concerning aspect of this market.
Lorely Burt
I must confess, somewhat ashamedly, that I have also seen Jeremy Kyle’s show and the advertisements that accompany it. I want to pick up on the fact that Labour Members do not feel it appropriate to meet short-term loan companies. I do not tweet, but it is my understanding that the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) says that Wonga has refused to meet her. That is not the case, however. [Interruption.] This is my understanding; I am just going on a letter from Wonga, and I do not want to get involved in the dispute. My point is that we must fully understand the situation. The hon. Lady knows it intimately; I do not deny that.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. This is supposed to be an intervention, not a speech. I call Jenny Chapman.
Mrs Chapman
The new clause does not only address taxation. The hon. Gentleman should read it thoroughly, as it talks about other measures too. I do not think there is any one measure alone that will address this problem; there will have to be a package of measures.
There is no real competition in this market, as there are only a few companies in it. On Friday my attention was drawn to a company operating in the north-east called Provident. I was very disturbed to hear that last Christmas Provident representatives were going door to door deliberately targeting single mothers—as members of political parties, we all know that can be done. Its representatives were knocking on doors just before Christmas, saying, “We can offer you £500 and you don’t have to pay it back until after Christmas.” They were saying it could be paid back in a number of easy payments, thus making it seem attractive and ordinary. That is completely exploitative, and it will happen again this year unless the Government do something about it; indeed, it will happen Christmas after Christmas after Christmas. This House should neither accept nor tolerate that.
All Opposition Members are big supporters of credit unions.
Mrs Chapman
Yes, Members on both sides of the House are, of course. The people behind the credit union movement are hard-working and honourable. I work somewhere where everybody is honourable, but these people really are hard-working and dedicated—many of them are volunteers—and they work in our communities to promote low-cost credit to people who are left out of mainstream credit. However, even with the best will in the world credit unions are not going to be able to compete with Wonga and Uncle Buck and so forth, because they lack the high street and web presence.
Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
May I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for her tenacity in pursing this issue and say that her speech was a tour de force? Equally, I commend her for getting this issue discussed on Twitter, as this must be the first new clause on a Finance Bill to have generated this much interest on that site.
I wish to make only a few brief remarks, because a lot of what I wanted to say has been covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman), in particular, and by some Members on the Government Benches. Early on, I want to pick up on one point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow in her speech and at business questions last week, which is the suggestion that some funny business is going on and that the Government are deliberately delaying making a decision to help the Deputy Prime Minister at the party conference—[Hon. Members: “Rubbish!] Some hon. Members are shouting from a sedentary position, so I would be grateful if the Financial Secretary, who will, I presume, respond to the debate, could guarantee that the Deputy Prime Minister will not make an announcement on this matter in his conference speech. That would help Opposition Members—[Interruption.] I invite the Financial Secretary to make a few remarks on that point in his closing speech.
There is some consensus on this issue on both sides of the House. I was not a Member of Parliament when it was debated in February, although I have read many of the speeches. Many Members, on both sides of the House, take the issue very seriously—and rightly so. Before the general election campaign, the then Leader of the Opposition took it very seriously. When he was rebranding the Conservative party, he did not only hug hoodies and huskies. The party launched a campaign about resisting—I hope this is not unparliamentary language—your “inner tosser”, which encouraged people not to fall into the trap of personal debt that we have discussed. At the time, the current Prime Minister said that—and I paraphrase—although the campaign was provocative, we needed to do something about personal debt. The Opposition agree.
Today I visited a money advice centre in my constituency to talk about some of the issues faced by many of my constituents who are getting themselves into trouble. I was told stories about how Wonga and quickquid.com target many vulnerable people in my constituency. Members might not be aware that my constituency contains some of the most deprived estates in the country and we have had many examples of such companies targeting people such as single mothers, as in the cases mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington, when they have no choice but to sign up to such deals. Such people end up in great difficulty.
Another issue mentioned at the centre, although it does not fall within the narrow confines of the new clause, was illegal loan sharking. The problem is that many people who find themselves in deep trouble through legal loan sharking feel that they have no alternative but to turn to illegal loan sharks. I hope we will be able to debate that in future. I was told many tragic stories about people who have fallen foul of illegal loan sharking. Such people might be in work—it is not always a matter of gangs preying on vulnerable out-of-work people on estates. One example involved somebody who took out a loan from an illegal loan shark for £7,000, which soon became £70,000.
Lorely Burt
I agree with the hon. Gentleman about illegal loan sharking, which is a scourge of this country. Does he welcome the fact that despite the cuts the Government have made in other areas, we have increased the amount of money we are using to fight illegal loan sharks?
Jon Ashworth
My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) tells me that the Government have cut the financial inclusion grant. I always welcome action to tackle illegal loan sharking, so I would be very disappointed if the money going into those funds was cut.
This is an important issue, which particularly affects my constituents. As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow said, it is not just the constituents we would traditionally think of as the most vulnerable in society who are being hurt. Increasingly, the money advice centre I visited today is finding examples of people from lower and more middle income-backgrounds getting themselves into trouble and falling prey to such organisations.