Equality (Titles) Bill [HL]

Baroness D'Souza Excerpts

Friday 6th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I am very much in the hands of the House when it comes to whether it wishes to accept amendments or not. I am content with the current scope of the Bill, so far as it goes, but I shall not stand in the way of the House if it wishes to change that. I certainly agree with the intent of my noble friend’s Amendment 4. I think that the Bill should cover Ireland. However, as to whether it should be restricted to peerages or baronetcies, I tend to come at this from the point of view of gender equality, and therefore do not particularly wish to preserve little islands of male supremacy in whatever strange form they may exist. There was certainly a dispute going back in my family as to whether or not they were the hereditary sword bearers in front of the Queen. They lost that argument, but I am aware that these offices exist. As an aside, I am also rather intrigued by the history of the title of my noble friend Lord Caithness. If we could make this measure retrospective, we might have a number of Lord Caithnesses and perhaps they could duel to the death to decide who should succeed. However, other than that, I am content with the Bill as it stands, except that I think Amendment 4 looks quite nice.

[The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)]

Does the noble Earl wish to withdraw the amendment?

[The Earl of Caithness]

Yes, but I want to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that she hit the nail on the head with regard to the words “hereditary title”. Because it is so ambiguous, the purpose of this amendment is to narrow it down; otherwise, this will become a lawyer’s paradise, particularly in Scotland where heredity is a different game. The Bill seeks to impose on five different regimes one solution that fits all, the principle of which none of us disagrees with. In Scotland, the position is very different and there are huge complications which will end up in a number of court cases. That is why I want the Bill to be much more specific. However, I wish to comment on Amendment 2, which the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, will move, so at this stage I will withdraw Amendment 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Speaker]

Is it your Lordships’ pleasure that this amendment be withdrawn?

[Lord Trefgarne]

No.

[The Lord Speaker]

Does the noble Lord wish to test the opinion of the House?

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I invite the noble Baroness the Lord Speaker to put the Question.

[The Lord Speaker]

The Question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion say content, the contrary not-content.

[Lord Trefgarne]

Not-content.