Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill

Baroness Fox of Buckley Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading
Friday 24th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, this Bill is suboptimal. It is not the revolution that many leaseholders across the country have been desperate for, but it is the only game in town—a game that has taken 22 years to get to this point—and the Government should be commended for some things.

I have tabled this amendment because a share of freehold is more flexible and means that owners of flats can make any company arrangements that they wish, whereas commonhold is more top-down and restrictive. Residents would also have insolvency protection, which is always a good thing. Importantly, all leaseholders must be members of that share of freehold company to maximise alignment of interests and block any residents’ disputes. Forfeiture, as I have said before, is a gangster-like power. It needs to go, and I cannot see why that is not in this Bill.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is very difficult for us at this stage because a huge number of amendments have suddenly emerged. When I heard that the Government were putting forward so many, I was quite pleased, because I had had a very productive meeting with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott; I thought that we had made some strides in Committee and that there would be an attempt by the Government to strengthen the Bill for leaseholders. Then I saw all the amendments. I confess that I do not understand all the technical implications, but I know that, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out, the things that the Government have talked about in only the last couple of weeks—ground rent, forfeiture and so on—are not there.

I am delighted that this is in wash-up. I will not be able to speak on every group because, at this point, I just want to get the Bill through and do not want to do anything to delay it. I had hoped that the Government would be amenable to some of the constructive amendments, such as this one from the noble Lord, Lord Bailey, to give a bit of extra heft to a Bill which says the right things at the top but has left so many leaseholders frustrated. The Bill has left things dangling in front of them—“suboptimal” is entirely the right description.

When the Minister comes back, perhaps he could indicate whether there are any grounds for hope rather than that we end up spending too long on this discussion and somehow it does not even pass in the suboptimal state that it is in. How should we even view this discussion today? Is anyone listening?

[Lord Hacking (Lab)]

Yes, we are listening.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I do not want to just go through the motions. I just want to understand the process so that we do not bother speaking to every group of amendments just for the sake of it. Clarity would be helpful on the Government’s attitude to the positive amendments that have been put in by the likes of the noble Lord, Lord Bailey. I thank my heckler as well. It is always appreciated.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I speak in support of the two linked amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Bailey of Paddington. It is perfectly clear that leasehold is unlikely to be the path of the future. My objections to this Bill, apart from some that are to do with practicality—such as the one I spoke on in the last group, where clarity is still needed from the Government—are about the retrospective meddling with private property rights and existing private contracts.

It is perfectly clear that leasehold has probably had its day and that my noble friend is correct in saying that future buildings—blocks of flats or whatever—should be constituted under some such regime as commonhold, or at least shared freehold with 999-year leases or some other such provision as he has mentioned here in his amendment. I would very much hope that the Government and the Opposition would take this on, and certainly if my noble friend were to divide the House, I would support him in the lobbies on Amendment 8 and the associated consequential amendment.

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[Lord Hintze (Con)]

My Lords, given the fact I have not spoken before on this matter, I again draw attention to my registered interests. I want to add my disquiet at what I am seeing here. This is an attack on property rights. That is an issue for both sides of the House. Why? Because it attacks us—our country—as a good place to invest. There are issues that need to be talked through but, to be very clear, the bankruptcy point that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, raised is absolutely not trivial. The legal issues around this are quite serious. I ask the Minister: have the Government looked at that in any detail?

The other thing I would like to ask Government is: why the rush? Why now? There are issues that both sides of the House want to address, whether now or in the next Parliament. I seriously think we should wait. What really makes me quite hot under the collar, if you do not mind my saying so, is: why make it retrospective? In my view, this goes against all sorts of natural justice. Unless something terrible is being done, why make it retrospective? Anyway, that is my word that I would like to share with the House.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Hintze and Lord Robathan, both made the point that there had not been enough scrutiny of leasehold in this Bill. They also both said, “I’m sorry I haven’t spoken on this before”. I will just point out that there has been a fair bit of scrutiny on this Bill. There has also been a whole range of debates on leasehold since I have been in the House—for only three and a half years. If they had been in previous discussions on the Bill, they would have heard in boring detail, which we do not have time for now, how many inquiries and investigations from all political parties have gone into every aspect, detail and legal and financial implication of what would happen if we got rid of leasehold—every detail of it. The criticism is that the Government are not going far enough, but the notion that you can wander in and say, “You lot have not thought about this; you’ve not considered it”, is wrong.

The other thing that I want immediately to come back on—undoubtedly the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, will think that I am being too passionate, but anyway—is that everybody is suddenly now concerned about bankruptcy. It is true that nobody wants to drive anyone into bankruptcy, but the notion that this Bill is about driving people into bankruptcy is wrong because it is actually designed as a way of dealing with the fact that many people face bankruptcy because of the service charges that they face.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way, but she said in her earlier speech that she wanted clarity. It may have been discussed before, but she wanted clarity, I want clarity, and I think we all want clarity in legislation.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

The context of my point about clarity was slightly different.

Anyway, the final thing is that the bankruptcy many leaseholders face, because of service charges and some of the things this Bill tries to deal with, is just being ignored.

The final thing is that I object to this notion that it is an attack on property rights and to this idea that people do not understand. People who buy leasehold flats are entering into the property market. They think they are property owners and they are being done over and ripped off by people who sell them the myth that they are buying into a property-owning democracy—something which has been sold by the Conservative Party many times. They have been mis-sold and misled. This cry for commonhold is all about giving them the right to own their property and manage their own affairs and not, suddenly out of nowhere, to have people in control of their homes ripping them off. It is as simple as that. We are trying to give them autonomy. This Bill does not go far enough. However, these arguments are a complete distraction from the limitations of this Bill. They are irrelevant to this Bill. We should be let it go through as quickly as possible.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I hope she can appreciate that it is perfectly possible to agree with every word she said—that there are abusers, as I said in Committee, that the Bill should address the abuses and that commonhold or something of that character is undoubtedly the way forward and could be legislated for even now—and still be concerned about the retrospective seizure of assets from one party to be transferred to another and to ask how many of those are actually overseas investors, how many are domestic investors and how many are the real people she wants to speak up for who live in their homes. It is perfectly possible to ask those questions.

This Bill is a sledgehammer to attack a nut. It is rare that something as arcane as property law could excite such passion, but we need less passion and more focus on the detail of property law and getting it right if it is to work and not produce worse outcomes for people who live in their own homes, for whom she has so passionately and properly argued.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

It is very fashionable to say “I am not a lawyer”, but lots of lawyers who work in property and housing support this Bill but think it does not go far enough. It is not just all bluster and passion. That is misleading.

My final retort to come back is that I am defending people who buy a property to live in. People who buy a property that they then rent out are, as far as I know, not the devil incarnate. I am surprised that people on the Conservative Benches have decided that, if you happen to buy a leasehold property and you want to rent it out, you are doing something malign and malicious. This is not about poor people versus rich people. It is about impoverishing people who buy a house, thinking they are buying a house, only to find out that they have no control or autonomy and that somebody else from a rentier class that has become lazy about innovation in terms of construction, building and housing, is living off easy gains by ripping off leaseholders.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

I thank my noble friends Lord Howard of Rising and Lord Moylan for their amendments, and all who have spoken in this group. As we have already discussed on the previous group, residency is difficult to establish, can change quickly over time and could be manipulated, as previous residency requirements have been. The fact remains that a residency test would complicate the system overall, contrary to the aims of the Bill, leading to an uptick in disputes and litigation. Therefore, we oppose the introduction of any form of residency test which would treat leaseholders differently under these reforms. I assure my noble friends that I completely understand and hear what their aim is, here and in the previous group, but it would complicate the system and create a two-tier system.

A number of points were raised which I will seek to address. First, I shall cover the points raised by my noble friends Lord Howard and Lord Moylan about analysis, impact studies and foreign investment as a group. My noble friend Lord Howard asked about analysis. While it might be the case that marriage-value savings are concentrated in London and the south-east, this is because of the large number of flats in London, the region where leasehold property prices are highest.

Further to that, my noble friend asked about our analysis. I assure him that it is robust, as is demonstrated by our impact assessment being noted as fit for purpose and green-rated by the Regulatory Policy Committee—RPC.

My noble friend Lord Moylan raised a point about foreign investors. The Bill will fulfil the Government’s aims to make it cheaper and easier for leaseholders to extend their lease or buy their freehold. It will apply to leaseholders whether they live in their property or elsewhere. Attempting to limit the rights of non-resident leaseholders would complicate the system that we aim to simplify and restrict access where we wish to improve it.

My noble friend also talked about a lack of proper scrutiny. This has had proper scrutiny. In 2018, the Law Commission’s legal experts began their report into enfranchisement. In 2019, the Law Commission reported, including options on marriage values, which we accepted. In 2021, the Government confirmed that these recommendations were policy. In 2023, the King’s Speech set out the Bill, which has had scrutiny in both Houses.

That leads me neatly on to my noble friend Lord Robathan and the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, who raised the impact of wash-up. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox—maybe I should say my noble friend on this occasion—got this right, but I appreciate the point about the impact of wash-up. The suggestion is that the Bill has not been scrutinised but, in my brief time as a Government Minister, I have sat through many debates on this and it has been through both Houses of Parliament. We are talking about it today; it is being scrutinised. Many noble Lords and others have had to tolerate sitting in meetings with me, alongside my noble friend the Minister, to talk about it. We have engaged. I appreciate the point being made that this is not the way to do it, but it is because of wash-up. The Chief Whip raised this earlier today and the Leader addressed it yesterday.

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[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, I speak to my Amendment 67. When Parliament passed the Building Safety Act 2022, there was a major error within it. Anyone could be an accountable person except a manager appointed under Section 24 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987. Section 24 is a lifeline right for flat leaseholders with bad landlords, sky-high service charges and rundown buildings. Again, I return to my theme of control and the ability to remove a bad freeholder and a bad landlord—not a good one. Sadly, by barring Section 24 managers from being an accountable person, or at least from assuming that function, Section 24 is blown up.

Again, I just say that these are practical things that leaseholders will need. I believe that Labour colleagues also support this amendment. I would really like to hear from my noble friend the Minister why this cannot be done. It is a practical step, it does not seem to have any cost, and it would make a great deal of difference to the leaseholders involved.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, we are really close to the end. This is a very similar amendment to one that I proposed in Committee. In following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, said about the meeting with the Minister, I also had a meeting with the Minister half an hour before the election was announced, in which it was indicated that there was some interest by the Government in supporting this amendment. It is, of course, frustrating to be in this position in wash-up with regard to some of these details. For example, it was said only last week that, even if we were not going to get peppercorn ground rent, we might have had a very low £250 ground rent. We were all anticipating that Report would be a very positive and creative time to improve this Bill.

That was not to be the case; but for whoever takes on this brief in the future, the implication earlier today in some of the crosser exchanges was that nobody had thought about the implications of what this Bill was about. Many of us are bored of thinking of the implications and this issue has gone on for decades and decades and decades. Political parties of both sides have promised that they would resolve some of the anomalies associated with leasehold and move us on to commonhold. We are now in a situation where, through bad luck, we cannot have a full discussion on this particular Bill—it was inadequate anyway. At least we got it into wash-up, and I say simply that I found the department, the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, and the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, to be incredibly helpful.