Oral Answers to Questions
Chris Bryant Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Mrs May
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Opposition talk about Government funding, but every police force in this country has funding available from the precept. At the end of the four-year period of the comprehensive spending review, police will have 6% less funding. That is the figure that people should concentrate on, rather than what the Opposition say.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
4. If she will assess the merits of excluding from entry to the UK those people who were involved in the death of Sergei Magnitsky.
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
As the Prime Minister has made clear, the Government remain very concerned by Mr Magnitsky’s death and are disappointed that the official investigation into the case announced by President Medvedev in November 2009 has still not been completed. I am due to meet the hon. Gentleman shortly to discuss this important issue, but the duty of confidentiality means that the Government are unable to discuss the details of individual immigration cases.
Chris Bryant
I am going to try to talk about individual cases anyway, I am afraid. There is no point in merely being disappointed. Sergei Magnitsky was working for a British organisation in Russia when he discovered a vast network of corruption. He was illegally arrested and murdered while in police custody. Many other countries are considering a ban: the United States of America, Poland, Canada, Holland, Germany, Estonia and the Czech Republic. Why cannot we ensure that those corrupt murderers do not come into this country?
Damian Green
The Government continue to raise our concerns and the hon. Gentleman is right to be concerned about the case. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary both discussed the case with Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov when he last visited the UK in February 2011. I understand that the official Russian investigation is due to report in August. As I have said, we are disappointed that it has taken so long but no doubt the hon. Gentleman and I can discuss more of the details when we have our meeting in a few days’ time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Chris Bryant Excerpts(12 years, 12 months ago)
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James Brokenshire
I agree very much with the right hon. Gentleman. We have taken practical measures with police forces around the country to ensure that when complaints are made issues of vulnerability and repeat calls are picked up quickly, and so that tragic cases such as that of Fiona Pilkington can be identified much more efficiently and effectively. The provision of that practical relief is an important part of the changes we are seeking.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I am sorry, but all this talk about community triggers and community maps is just a load of guff. The South Wales police force area contains two large cities that have to be policed. A large number of royal occasions and sporting events have to be policed. The last problem to which any time is devoted, especially when major cuts are being made to the South Wales police budget, is antisocial behaviour in areas such as the Rhondda. What will the Minister do to ensure that the police are given the instructions they need to tackle the real problems that people face, and that there is money with which to tackle it?
James Brokenshire
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman got to the question in the end. I remind him again of our responsibility and of the problems the Labour party left us, because there is still no recognition of that. We are giving the police the power they need to respond to the problems in the hon. Gentleman’s community and the communities of other Members throughout the House.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Chris Bryant
Those words will not do her any good I am afraid, but I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way.
I am sure we all agree that we have the best police force in the world. Has the Home Secretary come across Chief Constable Steve Finnigan of the Lancashire constabulary, who has said that
“we can do an awful lot of work around back-office, around efficiency, around bureaucracy and certainly in Lancashire, in my force, we are doing a lot of that, but we cannot leave the frontline untouched and that is because of the scale of the cuts”?
Will the Home Secretary be straight with the British people and say that there are going to be front-line cuts because of what she is bringing in?
Mrs May
Many chief constables have made the point that what is happening will not mean that there will be no change to front-line services but that they can protect front-line services. That is exactly what chief constables such as the chief constable of Greater Manchester have made clear. There might need to be reform in front-line services, but that does not mean a reduction in the front-line services available to members of the public.
Directly elected police and crime commissioners will bring real accountability to local policing. They will ensure that the police focus on what local people want and not on what the national Government think they want.
Mobile Communications (Interception)
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I believe that, in accordance with Parliament-speak, this Adjournment debate has been entitled something like “The Interception of Mobile Telephony”, but in case anybody is in any doubt, it is about phone hacking. [Interruption.] That term covers a multitude of sins: tapping a telephone call or line; hacking into a phone’s operating system to access e-mails, text messages, contact details or— [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am very sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. The Adjournment debate is now taking place. If Members wish to have private conversations, they can do so in the Lobby. I would be very grateful if they would not do so in the Chamber.
Chris Bryant
You are very naughty boys.
As I was saying, the term phone hacking includes hacking into a phone’s operating system to access e-mails, text messages, contact details or a record of mobile internet searches, and the interception of mobile phone messages either before or after the person for whom they were intended has accessed them. These are not just sins, of course; they are offences under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Computer Misuse Act 1990.
There are other dark arts: ringing an office and pretending to have to deliver a parcel to someone’s home address and thereby fraudulently getting the home address; ringing a phone call centre and pretending to be a client so as to get a personal identification number to be able later to listen to, or change, somebody’s messages; and blagging a doctor’s receptionist into giving highly personal information about an appointment or medication or other treatment. Interestingly, one expert concluded only two days ago that roughly 60% of doctors’ surgeries in England are completely incapable of protecting patients’ privacy in this kind of situation.
All those dark arts were part of the systematic modus operandi of the News of the World for a sustained period. Evidence already in the public domain shows that that period extended at least from 2003 to 2006, when Andy Coulson was the editor of the newspaper. Recent evidence also suggests that it continued long after Coulson had left, and that between June 2009 and March 2010 a News of the World journalist called Dan Evans was accessing or attempting to access the phone messages of Kelly Hoppen. I believe that the practice started earlier than 2003; I believe it started in 2002, under the editorship of the then Rebekah Wade, now Rebekah Brooks, and I believe that evidence will very soon prove that to be the case. I find it absolutely extraordinary that Rebekah Brooks has, thus far, refused point blank to appear before the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. I very much hope that in future deliberations that Committee will insist, if necessary by a motion of this House, that she be forced to appear before it.
This activity was not confined to the News of the World alone. I understand that there is now clear evidence that at least one journalist at The Sunday Times was also involved. For a long time, though, News International tried to maintain that just one rogue reporter at the News of the World was involved: Clive Goodman, the royal correspondent. News International could not explain why a royal correspondent would have been interested in the messages of the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) or Sienna Miller, as they are not notable members of the royal family, but it was assisted in its argument by the Metropolitan police. Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman, who was formerly in charge of the investigation, said that there were “perhaps a handful” of hacking victims, and his successor, John Yates, maintained time and again that there were very few victims. Indeed, as late as late last year several possible victims were told directly by the Metropolitan police that there was “little or no” evidence of hacking in their case.
Of course we now know that to be completely and utterly untrue. Indeed, the head of the new investigation, appointed this January, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers, has said explicitly that
“this has now proved to be false, and represents an important and immediate new line of inquiry.”
The allegation that there were only “perhaps a handful” of hacking victims is countered by the fact that I could name—I am not going to do so today—at least eight Members of the House of Commons who have been informed directly by the Metropolitan police that not only were they a person of interest to Mr Mulcaire, but there may have been interception of their messages.
There are very serious issues here. On the face of it, at least, the relationship between the Metropolitan police and the News of the World is remarkably and, I would argue, dangerously close. The former editor of The Sun and the News of the World, Rebekah Brooks, has openly confessed that she has paid police officers for information—in other words, bribed the police—and there has been no investigation whatever. Andy Hayman, who once led the News of the World investigation at the Metropolitan police, has ended up on the News International payroll. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner and other senior Met officers dined with senior executives at the News of the World both while the investigation was ongoing and when there were calls that the investigation be reopened. Indeed, Sir Paul Stephenson met Neil Wallis of the News of the World in September 2006, only a month after counter-terrorism officers arrested Mulcaire and Goodman. There were 12 other private dinners and social engagements, including an invitation for Sir Paul to attend the News Corporation summer party. And in 2009, Deputy Commissioner John Yates had dinner with the editor of the News of the World, Colin Myler, just when he was refusing calls for the investigation to be reopened. That was at best ill-advised; at worst, fairly or unfairly, it smacks of collusion.
One day there will have to be a full investigation into why the Met’s original investigation was so cursory. Was it laziness that meant people simply could not be bothered to wade through the material gathered from Glenn Mulcaire in 2006? Was it because of the closeness of senior officers to the newspaper? Was it just too ready an acceptance of News International’s word, or did the News of the World have something on some of the people involved in the investigation? Or was it a mistaken understanding of the law, deliberate or accidental?
That takes me to the evidence that John Yates gave to the Select Committee on Home Affairs in September 2010, in which he said that
“hacking is defined in a very prescriptive way by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and it’s very, very prescriptive and it’s very difficult to prove…There are very few offences that we are able to actually prove that have been hacked. That is, intercepting the voicemail prior to the owner of that voicemail intercepting it him or herself.”
That point at the end is very important:
“intercepting the voicemail prior to the owner of that voicemail intercepting it him or herself.”
On that basis—and only on that basis—Yates asserted that there were really only eight to 12 victims.
It has now emerged, however, that never at any stage during the prosecution of Goodman and Mulcaire did anybody from the Crown Prosecution Service advise the Metropolitan police that the law should be interpreted in such a way, and never at any stage in the prosecution was that interpretation relied on. Indeed, the Director of Public Prosecutions said in his evidence:
“First, the prosecution did not in its charges or presentation of the facts attach any legal significance to the distinction between messages which had been listened to and messages which had not. Secondly, the prosecution not having made the distinction, the defence did not raise any legal arguments in respect of the issue, and pleaded guilty.”
Furthermore, I understand that on 1 October last year a team from the CPS held a meeting with a team from the Metropolitan police and formally warned them it was wrong to claim such an interpretation. Scotland Yard, therefore, has known for more than five months that the evidence given by Yates to the two Select Committees was misleading—not on a minor point, but on the most substantial point of all, as it is directly linked to the question of how many victims there are in the affair and whether there should or should not be a further investigation or a reopening of the investigation. Indeed, that was the very reason—and the only reason—why the Metropolitan police refused point blank to reopen the case until January of this year.
Let me be clear. I am delighted that the Met has reopened the investigation. I am glad that additional information has now been gathered from other sources, but what still astounds and infuriates me is that in many cases the Met already had all the information it needed—reams and reams of notes taken by Mr Mulcaire with 91 personal identification numbers, copious invoices, pages devoted to individual targets with thousands of linked phone numbers, many of them garnered illicitly, and quite often the name of a commissioning journalist or executive. Indeed, some of us have been shown the material that was gathered from Mr Mulcaire in 2006, which has been sitting in the Metropolitan police’s vaults ever since, that relates directly to us.
In other words, the Met had many of the dots—it just failed or refused to join them up. Let us take one example. On 2 September 2009, Mike Hall, former MP for Weaver Vale, directly asked Mr Yates,
“was John Prescott’s phone actually tapped or not?”
Yates answered:
“No. As I said on the day, there is no evidence it was.’
Yates also told the Home Affairs Committee on 7 September 2010—just a few months ago—that Lord Prescott
“has never been hacked to my knowledge and there is no evidence that he has.”
Yet now Lord Prescott has been told that that evidence exists and always has existed. We now know that the evidence given to the Committee was completely disingenuous.
Yates misled the Committee, whether deliberately or inadvertently. He used an argument that had never been relied on by the CPS or by his own officers so as to suggest that the number of victims was minuscule, whereas in fact we know and he knew that the number of potential victims is and was substantial. What was lacking was not possible avenues of investigation, but the will to pursue them.
What is depressing is how closely all that accords with the line spun by News International. When the Chairman of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport Committee asked Les Hinton:
“You carried out a full, rigorous internal inquiry, and you are absolutely convinced that Clive Goodman was the only person who knew what was going on?”,
Les Hinton replied:
“Yes, we have and I believe he was the only person”.
There simply has not been a full or rigorous investigation. I do not know why, although I could speculate, but I hope that one day we shall all know.
There is also the matter of the mobile phone companies, each of which has operated a slightly different system regarding mobile phone messages. There is clear evidence that in some cases rogue staff members sold information to investigators and reporters. In other cases, companies spotted that a client’s phone had been compromised but failed to notify the client. Indeed, one Select Committee report noted that Vodafone sometimes notified people, O2 mostly notified people but Orange never did. When I asked Orange yesterday whether it would notify a client if their phone was hacked into now, it said it did not know. However, I understand that today it believes that in certain circumstances it might notify a client. I believe that in every such circumstance the client should be notified when there has been a problem. All that suggests a rather slapdash approach towards the security of mobile telephony.
This has been a many layered scandal, but at the heart of the issue is the rationale behind the whole modus operandi at the News of the World and other newspapers. As one police officer put it to me, the newspapers involved deliberately sought to harass, intimidate and bully people for their own commercial interests. In the pursuit of their victims they were reckless about the innocent bystanders whose personal messages were intercepted, transcribed and relayed to others.
Almost as bad as the original illegal activity—only the tip of which we have yet seen—has been the cover-up. Other Members and former Members of the House have said they were warned off pushing the issue in the House and in Select Committees. When I raised the question of parliamentary privilege in the House last September, my friends were told by a senior figure allied to Rupert Murdoch and a former executive of News International to warn me that it would not be forgotten. What is truly shameful is the fact that the full extent of all this is coming to light now only because individuals have taken private civil actions, often at great expense, against the News of the World, News International or the Metropolitan police.
I praise the investigation that has now begun and I trust that the deputy assistant commissioner will follow where the evidence leads. I only wish that her predecessor had done the same. I suspect that even hardened cynics will be shocked when they know the full extent of the operation that went on, but I praise those who have taken courageous action in the courts, especially Sienna Miller and Kelly Hoppen.
There are many unanswered questions. Why was it left to the News of the World to do its own internal investigation and, in particular, why did the News of the World rather than the Metropolitan police impound Ian Edmondson’s computer? How did e-mails relating to Ian Edmondson that were not available a year ago suddenly become available once he was implicated in Mulcaire’s papers relating to Siena Miller, which the Met had had in its possession for at least four years? Why were key figures at the News of the World, including Neville Thurlbeck, not interviewed by the police? Why did the Met choose a narrow, false interpretation of the law on interception? How many journalists commissioned Glenn Mulcaire’s illegal activity? How many senior executives at News International were aware of what was going on on their watch? Were Rebekah Brooks, Andy Coulson, Les Hinton and Neil Wallis aware? For four years now, the argument from the Met and the News of the World has been consistent: there was just one rogue reporter, there were very few victims, it is very difficult to prove anything and every avenue of investigation was pursued. Every shred of that argument is now in tatters.
I fully understand that there will be people who think none of this matters, and that it is just a storm in a metropolitan teacup, but the freedom of the press is far too important and was won too hard to be sullied by such illegal activity. Investigative journalism is so important in uncovering malfeasance that it is vital readers know that the stories they read are properly, reliably and legally sourced.
In the end this is about who runs Britain. Are the press above the law or subject to it? Is the law there to protect the press or to pursue every avenue of investigation? In time, I suspect we shall see that this has been a full-blown, copper-bottomed scandal.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on securing the debate. He has a keen personal interest in the issues raised, as he has highlighted; indeed, I am aware that many Members share that interest.
The issue of phone hacking is undoubtedly one that Members on both sides of the House regard as extremely important. As well as the original investigation by the Metropolitan police, which resulted in the prosecution and conviction of Clive Goodman, the royal editor of the News of the World, and a private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, there has been a separate review by the Metropolitan police, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service. The matter has previously been the subject of consideration by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. It is also the subject of current inquiries by both the Home Affairs Committee and the Committee on Standards and Privileges.
Such a degree of interest is understandable. The Government fully agree that the prospect of journalists, or anyone else, unlawfully hacking into and listening to people’s private conversations is an extremely serious matter that needs to be treated accordingly. In its plainest terms phone hacking is unlawful and should not occur. Any interception of communications is a very serious invasion of privacy. No activity of that nature would ever be taken lightly by the state itself.
Interception is of course a potentially powerful tool for combating terrorism and serious crime, but the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, which governs lawful interception and its oversight, allows only a very small number of intelligence and law enforcement agencies to apply for warrants to undertake such steps. The warrants can be issued only by the Secretary of State and for very limited purposes, including preventing or detecting serious crime and the interests of national security.
The checks and balances that have been established underline how serious a step it is to contemplate interfering with private communications, even when such action is designed to protect the public and prevent harm or detect wrongdoing. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary devotes a great deal of her time to scrutinising warrant applications under RIPA for the security services and police to interfere with the communications of serious criminals and terrorists.
There is no place for indiscriminate and unauthorised interception. Such activity, which includes the so-called hacking of voice messages, is an offence under RIPA and carries a penalty of two years’ imprisonment. In addition, and of growing relevance as technology advances, the Computer Misuse Act 1990 created other offences relating to the unauthorised accessing of data. They include unauthorised access to a computer to look at information, for which the penalty is up to two years’ imprisonment, and accessing a computer in order to commit other crimes, such as stealing data, for which the penalty is up to five years’ imprisonment.
Personal data are also protected under the provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998, and unlawfully obtaining personal data is also an offence under that Act. There can thus be no doubt that the intention of Parliament is that an individual’s personal and private data should be properly protected.
When there is reason to suspect that any of the provisions protecting personal data may have been breached, it is quite rightly a matter for the police to consider and investigate. Police investigations are operational matters, and it is for the relevant police force to decide whether and how best to approach any such investigation, in consultation as necessary with the Crown Prosecution Service.
It has been suggested that the original investigation by the Metropolitan police was inadequate, but I remind the House that the investigation did result in the prosecution and conviction of two individuals. In dealing with that investigation, the police worked closely with the Crown Prosecution Service to determine the best approach to the case and prosecution. Those decisions were subsequently reviewed. The police made it clear that the investigation was technical and complex. They also undertook to consider any fresh information and evidence that might shed any new light on the case. As the Director of Public Prosecutions made clear in December 2010, for a prosecution to be taken forward it is necessary for there to be credible evidence and individuals prepared to testify to it.
Fresh information has recently been made available to the police and a new investigation is under way, as the House is well aware. It is important that that investigation be allowed to proceed without hindrance. It would not be appropriate for me to speculate or comment on the details at this stage, but the Metropolitan police have made it clear that it is to be a thorough and most robust investigation. It is being carried out by a fresh team within the Metropolitan police. The officer in charge, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers, released a statement on 9 February, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, in which she made it clear that the Metropolitan police were
“determined to ensure that we conduct a robust and thorough investigation which will follow the evidence trail to its conclusion.”
Chris Bryant
I have full confidence in Sue Akers because everything I have seen shows that she is doing the job that should have been done previously, and I do not underestimate the difficulty of that job. The Minister said—it is an argument that has been adduced by others, and Mr Yates in particular—that new evidence has been provided, but that is not actually true. The only reason there was new evidence in relation to Ian Edmondson is that the papers relating to Sienna Miller, which mentioned Mr Edmondson, were finally wrested from the hands of the police by Sienna Miller in a civil court case. That is the scandal.
James Brokenshire
All those issues relating to the investigation will undoubtedly be examined by Sue Akers and the Metropolitan police as part of their ongoing investigation. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the Director of Public Prosecutions has also instigated an independent review of all the original evidence held by the Metropolitan police, including that not originally given to the Crown Prosecution Service in connection with the original case.
That review will consider whether there is any material that could form evidence in any future criminal prosecution. It is important that the police are able to focus fully on this new investigation and pursue any new avenues of inquiry as necessary. The most appropriate course is therefore to await the outcome of the investigation, rather than speculating further at this stage on particular aspects.
I am sure that the whole House will agree that a free press is a fundamental hallmark of our democracy, but that does not mean that the media are above the law—they are bound by it in precisely the same way as any other individual. Any breaches of that law are punishable through the courts in the normal way. With freedom comes responsibility. The press have their own set of guidelines set out in the press code of practice, which contains a clause forbidding the acquisition and publication of material by intercepting private or mobile telephone calls, messages or e-mails. The media must adhere to those standards of conduct. I would also say that the defence of activity being in the public interest is not the same as what may interest the public.
The media’s conduct in relation to the code of practice is overseen and enforced by the Press Complaints Commission. The commission is independent from the newspaper industry, with commission members appointed by an independent appointments commission and with an in-built majority of lay members. It is also, rightly, independent of the Government. We of course recognise that these arrangements and the industry’s system of self-regulation are not perfect and are sometimes breached. However, overall we believe that the PCC acts as an effective check on the industry and in reinforcing the standards expected.
The PCC recently announced that it has set up a working group to look at new evidence as it becomes known, and it is examining its own role and actions in relation to the issue as it has unfolded. The committee will comprise the two lay commissioners who joined most recently, in 2010, both of whom are experts in relevant legal fields: Ian Walden, professor of information and communications law at Queen Mary, university of London; and Julie Spence, a former chief constable of Cambridgeshire police. There will be one editorial commissioner, John McLellan, the editor of The Scotsman.
Despite some undoubted lapses in the standards that we expect of the media according to the principles of its own code, overall we believe that further regulation of the industry is neither necessary nor appropriate. We will, however, continue to keep the issue under review.
On the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the mobile phone companies, mobile network operators offer a range of advice and services on keeping personal details secure at all times. Some send an automatic message if a PIN number is incorrectly entered, or they may suspend services until the legitimate owner of the account authenticates their identity. The Information Commissioner has been working with service providers to consider the safeguards available, and he will include advice on that in his next set of guidance.
As I said at the outset, I recognise that the matter continues to command a great deal of interest. That is why it is already under detailed scrutiny. In addition to the current police investigation, the Director of Public Prosecutions has instigated a review by Alison Levitt, QC, of all available evidence—not just that passed to the Crown Prosecution Service in connection with the original prosecutions. She has been asked to take a robust approach to assessing the evidence, advising whether the Metropolitan Police Service should carry out any further investigation or whether any prosecutions can be brought. She will also advise on the new investigation.
The Home Affairs Committee is conducting an inquiry into phone hacking, as is the Standards and Privileges Committee, and, as I have said, the Press Complaints Commission has announced its own review of the emerging information. As the hon. Gentleman noted, other cases are being brought by individuals who believe that they might have been subject to hacking, and they are currently before the courts. Each process has its own proper procedures for looking into the detail of the allegations and its own course to run.
The Government and the whole country take the issue of phone hacking extremely seriously: the intrusion of privacy, the attempt illegally to use private conversations for financial gain and the compromising of individual rights—we consider all those abhorrent. Although two individuals have already been convicted and jailed in relation to the case, it is possible that as a result of the new police investigation others will be prosecuted.
I remind the House that the Government have no involvement in decisions to charge or to prosecute individuals, and I am sure the whole House will agree that, in a free society, that is entirely right and proper. The right course of action for the Government is to await the outcome of the new police investigation, and that is exactly what we will do.
Question put and agreed to.
Proposed Directive (Information Systems)
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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James Brokenshire
I hear my hon. Friend’s point. We obviously reflected on the conclusion from the Committee’s initial response on the directive, which stated:
“We agree that large-scale attacks against information systems are likely to have a cross-border dimension and require close co-operation between Member States. We think that the legal base proposed is appropriate and accept that there is a case for further EU action to respond to new methods and tools for committing cyber crime.”
As he will realise, there is a three-month period in which the UK must respond to those issues. We take scrutiny very seriously. Indeed, making this statement on the Floor of the House underlines the importance that we place on allowing scrutiny to be applied. Obviously, the directive still requires more work and consideration in the negotiation, and that is precisely what the Government will do.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Does the Minister not understand that when Britain is dilatory in signing up to new directives and pieces of legislation, particularly those which have obvious cross-border relevance, it is deleterious to the British interest, because we are unable to take part in the full process of developing the policy? What he said earlier about why we are signing up to this directive but not yet to the directive on people trafficking makes absolutely no sense.
James Brokenshire
We examine the directives on a case-by-case basis, and I have set out clearly that we decided to opt in to this directive so that we could be part of the negotiations. As I said in response to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), the human trafficking directive contained no co-operational measures from which the UK would benefit, which was why we decided not to opt in, but we certainly keep the issue under review.
Counter-terrorism Review
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Mrs May
I am certainly happy to inform the House that I have had a positive reaction to the statement, in that the director general of the Security Service has told me that he considers that the changes provide an acceptable balance between the needs of security and of civil liberties and that the overall package mitigates risks. As we said in the review:
“an approach that scrapped control orders and introduced more precisely focused and targeted restrictions, supported by increased covert investigative resources, would mitigate risk while increasing civil liberties. Such a scheme could better balance the priorities of prosecution and public protection.”
All parties will see that.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has said that she will publish two separate pieces of draft primary legislation. They will sit around and we will be able to chat about them, but she will not introduce them until there is suddenly some specific reason—such as a court case—for her to do so. We will then suddenly have to pass the legislation in one day. Surely it would make far more sense to go through the legislative process so that we can table amendments and consider the legislation properly without the burden of the emergency affecting the debate. Would that not avoid the danger that the courts might decide that there was no proper opportunity for a free and fair trial given that Parliament had already effectively decided that the people involved were guilty?
Mrs May
We have proposed that the emergency legislation on 28 days’ pre-charge detention should be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny so that there is an opportunity for it to be considered, as I have made clear. If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about the process that we propose, why did he support it when his Government introduced it for the 42 days’ pre-charge detention?
Points of Order
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
In that case, we should leave it where it is for today—[Interruption.] Order. The shadow Home Secretary has raised a point of order and comment has been made on the matter. Those accounts are before the House and I do not think that there is anything further I can do at this stage.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The Home Secretary said the opposite of what was said last week.
Mr Speaker
Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman that these are at least in part matters of debate and argument. The point has been made very clearly by the shadow Home Secretary, expressing concern not merely on her behalf but on that of many others. The Home Secretary has replied to that point.
Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I, too, broadly agree with the system that we have in place for proscribing organisations. It is important not only for protecting ourselves and the security of those whom we represent but for playing our role in the international community in preventing terrorism and the spread of terrorism.
It is perhaps worth noting that the organisation whose terrorism I have personally experienced is Euskadi ta Askatasuna—ETA—in Basque Spain, where I grew up as a child, which is one of the proscribed organisations.
I agree fully with the addition of Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan to the list, but I wish to ask the Minister some questions about the full implications of the system and how we arrive at the decision to proscribe some people and organisations and not others. The 2000 Act is pretty clear in its interpretation of what terrorism is. It states:
“In this Act ‘terrorism’ means the use or threat of action where…the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public”.
Section 2 adds that action is included if it
“involves serious violence against a person”,
and section 4 states that it
“includes action outside the United Kingdom”.
That is obviously vital in the case of many of the organisations that we proscribe, although I note that the elements that the Government consider include not only the specific threat that an organisation poses to the UK but the need to support international partners in the fight against terrorism.
I suggest, as others have this evening, that we have perhaps not quite got the full list yet. I say that not as a reference to Hizb ut-Tahrir in particular but because those involved in the arrest, torture and murder of Sergei Magnitsky, and all those involved in the corruption that he unveiled in Russia, are and have been engaged in a form of economic terrorism against this country. I hope that the Home Office will therefore look at whether such an order is precisely the right vehicle to use to seize any of those people’s assets in this country, or to proscribe them from coming to this country. Sergei Magnitsky was working for a British company in Russia. He unveiled a vast nexus of corruption in the Russian system—$230 million-worth—and he was murdered in prison, having been put there without trial, and there has been absolutely no investigation since his death.
There have been moves similar to those allowed for by this order in other countries. In the United States, Senators McCain and Cardin have co-sponsored a law—the Justice for Sergei Magnitsky Act 2010—that will impose visa-entry bans and asset freezes on those Russians who took part. On 16 December 2010, the European Parliament recommended a very similar set of proposals—a vote on which was carried by 318 to 163.
The Minister may think that such an order is a wholly inappropriate way in which to proceed in relation to those people, but I very much hope that he will keep the matter under review.
Damian Green
If I were to answer my hon. Friend in detail, I would reveal intelligence information. I am sure that he, with his distinguished background in defence, would not want me to do that. I would refer him to the list of criteria I mentioned, which includes attacks on British citizens and British interests, along with those of our allies around the world. I think it would be beneficial if he studied those criteria carefully.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood asked about the review. I hope she is reassured not just by what I said about the rolling 12-month review programme, but by the fact that there is an appeal mechanism—first to the Home Secretary and then to an independent committee. The legislation allows for that. She asked whether the discretionary criteria are still appropriate, and we believe that they are. Counter-terrorism policy is, of course, kept permanently under review. She asked about the time scale; she will be aware that the Home Secretary is currently reviewing the most sensitive and controversial counter-terrorism and security powers and measures. It would be particularly inappropriate to speculate on the outcome of the review, as we are going to announce the findings shortly. I hope that the hon. Lady will be reassured by that.
The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised a particular case. I take his point, but say simply in response that the Government have a wide range of counter-terrorism tools at their disposal, including asset freezing, exclusion and so forth. It would obviously be improper for me to comment on an individual case.
Chris Bryant
Would the Minister be prepared to meet me about this particular case to talk through what might be done regarding the people who murdered Sergei Magnitsky?
Damian Green
I would be happy to do so, although the hon. Gentleman might prefer to meet the Minister of State with responsibility for security and counter-terrorism. If he wants to meet me, however, it is always a pleasure. I would be happy to do so, as I said.
One of the detailed points made by the hon. Member for Islington North was that proscription does not work, but dialogue does. Of course we all want to move towards dialogue, but proscription does send out a strong message that we do not tolerate terrorism, and it deters terrorist groups from operating here. It should in no way prevent peaceful dialogue. The hon. Gentleman also made a point about the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. The Tamil community in this country and elsewhere can express ideas it feels strongly about without supporting the LTTE.
Having heard what I thought was a good debate, I strongly believe, as I think every hon. Member does, that the TTP should be added to the list of proscribed organisations under schedule 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000. I emphasise once more that the TTP has carried out a large number of mass casualty attacks within Pakistan against the Pakistani military and Government and against civilian targets. The number of the group’s victims runs into the hundreds. It is important that we make the UK a hostile place for such terrorists and that we show our condemnation of this organisation’s activities. The TTP has also attacked western interests within Pakistan and has stated its intention to carry out attacks in the west—a threat given credence by the attempted attack in Times square. It is now right to align the UK with the emerging international consensus condemning this group and its activities. I commend the order to the House.
Question put and agreed to,
Ordered,
That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 17 January, be approved.
Public Order Policing
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs May
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s comments about the police who so bravely stood up to the demonstrators and ensured that Parliament was protected last week during the demonstrations, and indeed the police who took action and policed London during the demonstrations that occurred on two previous days.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me a number of questions, including about royal protection and whether there should be a wider review in future. We regularly examine the provision of the protection scheme for members of the royal family, and indeed the protection that, as he will be aware, the Metropolitan police provides to other individuals in the UK, including a number of politicians such as members of the Government. It is important that that is done. It is also important that we clearly identify what happened in this incident and whether any issues need to be addressed as a result, and factor that into any considerations in the review of royal protection.
As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, the number of people who have been arrested is varying, and is a moving feast. If I may, I will update him on the number of people who have been charged, but he will recognise that it will be changing over time—
Mrs May
Information will be provided to the office of the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) separately. We will do that to ensure that he knows the figure. He mentioned resources, but I have to say to him that, as someone who worked closely with the Chancellor and the Prime Minister under the previous Labour Government, and who has made something of a name for himself on the issue of figures, he really needs to pay a little more attention to the figures—[Interruption.] He says he is not asking about that, but he specifically asked me about Olympic security, and said that we would no longer be providing the £600 million we had set aside for that purpose.
Mrs May
On the tactics used by the police when policing demonstrations, the police will always consider all the available options. I have set out clearly the current position on the use of water cannon in England and Wales, but that has not yet been approved by the Home Office—
Mrs May
Of course the hon. Lady is free to write to me about those matters. There is a formal process which is appropriate if individuals wish to make complaints about the way the police have treated them, and a number of complaints are currently being investigated. However, let me point out to the hon. Lady and to any other Members who may agree with her that we should not focus on how the police responded. They should be accountable and complaints should be investigated, but we must ensure that we focus on those whose responsibility it was for violence to occur in the first place. That was not the police; it was the protesters.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I, too, wholeheartedly condemn the deliberate violence-mongering that ruined what would otherwise have been a perfectly admirable peaceful protest last Thursday, but the Home Secretary seems to be equivocating a bit on the question of water cannon. She said that they were not legal yet, as if she was implying that she might be persuaded to change her mind. As one who experienced water cannon in Chile in the 1980s, I can assure her that they are entirely indiscriminate, can lead to panic among those who are protesting, and can cause serious injury. The last time they were used in Stuttgart was a couple of months ago, when two people were blinded by them. Will the Home Secretary therefore rule out giving permission for the use of water cannon in this country?
Mrs May
I have made the position absolutely clear to the hon. Gentleman and others. I do not think that any of us want to see water cannon being used on the streets of England and Wales. I have said that several times in response to questions on my statement, and I think that the hon. Gentleman should have listened to my earlier answers.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
Chris Bryant Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I shall not echo what the Home Secretary has been saying. One of my big anxieties is that she talks about accountability in relation to the commissioners, but each of the forces in our land is a rather curious geographical unit. For instance, in the South Wales police, the demands of Swansea and of Cardiff will be completely and utterly different from the demands of valleys communities such as those in the Rhondda. It will be extremely hard for one person to reflect that better than a body of people who come together from the different communities.
Mrs May
If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I will shortly deal with part of the point that he makes.
Earlier today, we announced police force funding allocations. These ensure equal treatment across all forces, as each force will receive the same percentage reduction to its core Government funding. At the same time, we are giving the police service greater freedom than ever before over how to use its resources. With this new budgetary freedom, police and crime commissioners will be able to make real decisions about funding local priorities.
Concerns have been expressed about placing this degree of power in the hands of one person. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made the point about an individual representing, in some cases, a large area with competing and different requirements within it. The Bill will ensure that there are appropriate checks and balances on those powers.
At the core of our proposals is the establishment of new police and crime panels. These will ensure that there is a robust support and challenge role at force level, and that the decisions of the police and crime commissioners are tested on behalf of the public on a regular basis.
Mrs May
I am going to make some progress; I have been very generous in giving way to Opposition Front Benchers.
The running costs and day-to-day expenditure of police and crime commissioners’ will be less than 1% of the total costs of policing. What will be different is the value that the public get for that money. Police and crime commissioners will need to demonstrate value for money to local people or they will simply not be re-elected. The only additional cost of police and crime commissioners will be the costs involved in running the elections because, as we know, democracy costs money. That cost will be £50 million over four years, compared with the £50 billion that will be spent on policing in the same period.
Ed Balls
If, rather than framing his intervention, the hon. Gentleman had listened to the previous one, he would have known the answer to his question and would not have had to bother asking it. HMIC said that a 12% reduction in the central Government grant over four years was deliverable without cuts to front-line policing. That advice has not been taken by the Government: they have gone not for 12% but for 20%, and it will be front-loaded on the first two years. The coalition policy will mean not 3,000 more police officers, but visible, front-line police officer cuts in police forces up and down the country. That is not the manifesto on which Government Members were elected, and they will be held to account.
Chris Bryant
Will the cuts not be more savage in particular areas? In police forces such as South Wales, the work that absolutely must be done, such as policing major sporting events, looking after the Welsh Assembly and the continuation of anti-terrorism work, will not be cut, meaning that the neighbourhood policing that happens in ordinary people’s streets will end up being cut?
Ed Balls
As I have said, we are looking carefully at this proposal. We have investigated it in detail, and we have concluded that it is a bad idea because it risks politicising our police and it is a waste of money. The money would have been better spent on police officers on the front line. We had a record number of police officers, and now we are seeing the biggest cuts in peacetime history.
Chris Bryant
Is not the absolute proof that the Government know that these are to be politicised posts the fact that the Bill allows for the Home Secretary to make provision for the candidates for the posts to be included under the terms of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000? They will effectively become politicians; they will be party nominees.
Ed Balls
As I understand it, though, the drafting of the Bill has not taken into account the fact that funding needs to be restricted on third-party campaigning. This issue needs to be cleared up and properly brought into line with other political elections. We know that the matter will be politicised by those on the Government Benches, because they have said so.
It is the job of the Home Secretary to stand up for public safety, to fight for police numbers and to resist barmy political reorganisations that get in the way of progress. Instead, we have seen her standing back and giving in to the Chancellor on huge and disproportionate cuts to policing, and being steamrollered by the Treasury into proposing front-loaded cuts. We have seen her stand at the Dispatch Box and recite a script that was written by the Prime Minister before he was Leader of the Opposition, back in 2005. To agree to any one of record police cuts, front-loading of cuts or a risky change to political accountability would be a foolish thing to do, but to sign up to all three at the same time is very reckless indeed. That is what the Home Secretary has done over the past six months in the job. It is time that she got some operational independence and started to do the job that she was appointed to do. She must stand up for our police and our communities, and resist these barmy proposals. We oppose giving the Bill a Second Reading.
Caroline Dinenage
My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is important that the levies are imposed only on venues that supply alcohol between midnight and 6 am. That means the responsible pubs and clubs that shut earlier and are managed well, are able to go about their business without any such levies. The funds generated by the levy will be payable to the police and crime commissioners to help to fund the necessary policing, as well as to other organs of local government that address the effects of alcohol-related crime and disorder.
Another positive outcome of the Bill is the reduction in centrally set targets and in bureaucracy. The mass data collection prescribed by the previous Government is one of the biggest frustrations for our police. In Hampshire, it amounts to 130 weeks’ worth of extra work per year—two full-time members of staff—just to satisfy the demands of the Home Office. And I have no idea who reads all that stuff. The plea from local police is that this great advance towards common-sense policing needs to be reflected in changes to the criminal justice system. At the moment, our police spend thousands of hours preparing court cases in which the perpetrator says nothing on arrest or at interview but pleads guilty in the Crown court. All the preparation work was therefore an utter bureaucratic waste of time. There has to be some way of mitigating that.
Hampshire has the sixth biggest force in the country, policing about 2 million people, and substantially more during the summer.
Chris Bryant
Is the hon. Lady really suggesting that police officers should not do any preparation because they think that someone might plead guilty? What then happens when the person does not plead guilty?
Caroline Dinenage
I suggest that far too much police time is spent preparing for an inevitable guilty plea.
Caroline Dinenage
Well, in some cases it is an inevitable guilty plea. It is thousands of police hours—not in every case, but in many.
There are clear benefits from increased collaboration between forces, not least improved efficiency, the driving down of costs and the avoidance of reinventing the wheel. Police forces can do a lot by sharing back-office functions and procurement. In Hampshire constabulary there will be collaboration with the neighbouring Thames Valley force on facilities such as dog teams, firearms response, IT and surveillance aircraft.
We also need to ensure that the collegiate approach is backed up with shared local information. So many times, the police talk of the frustrations of the record management system, with local criminal information not being available across county borders, which the bad guys are happy to exploit.
There is a tendency for people to view the police as “them and us,” but the police are us; the us that is prepared to deal with humanity at its worst. As both Robert Peel and the Home Secretary have said,
“The police are the public and the public are the police.”
In Gosport, our local police work hard to build up trust in traditionally wary neighbourhoods. The Bill starts to recognise that work and build on it, and is joined up in both its approach and its delivery.
Sir Gerald Kaufman
There would have been no proposal to change the universal jurisdiction law if Tzipi Livni had not been scared away from this country after committing appalling war crimes against the people of Gaza. It is as simple and as plain as that.
As I said, the Israelis have just snubbed the President of the United States by refusing to halt the illegal building of settlements. The Israeli regime uses its powers of arrest without charge arbitrarily. Two Members of the Knesset, including the Deputy Prime Minister, were scared away by the law, but 30 members of the Palestine National Council are currently held by the Israelis without charge. That is not a threat of arrest, but an actual arrest.
Last month, when I was in Jerusalem, I visited three PNC members who are taking refuge from arbitrary arrest by the Israeli police with the international Red Cross. I met and heard the testimony of young Palestinian children who were assaulted by Israeli police—they showed us their scars and bruises—as a result of the arbitrary and illegal way in which the Israeli police treat Palestinians, including Palestinian children. When we met the Foreign Minister of Jordan in Amman, he told us that he had to offer diplomatic shelter to the President of Palestine because when they were driving along one after the other, the President was continually halted at Israeli checkpoints. For all those crimes and many more, the Israelis are answerable to no one. Now, one of the few sanctions on those crimes will be removed. As a result of the Bill, Israeli politicians will be literally allowed to get away with murder.
That comes at a time when the ground is shifting. As I said, the pledge on the measure was made in a full-page advertisement in the Jewish Chronicle in order to get Jewish votes in the recent general election, but there is an upheaval in the Jewish community, as a result of which the across-the-board support for anything an Israeli Government do is no longer available.
Chris Bryant
My right hon. Friend referred to what people said during the general election. Does he recall what position every single Liberal Democrat MP took before and during the general election?
Sir Gerald Kaufman
I am well aware what they said, because week after week, I sat in the Chamber at business questions, when the current Deputy Leader of the House rose without fail to say how heinous and unacceptable it would be for the Labour Government to change the law on universal jurisdiction, and how the Liberal Democrats would be totally opposed to any such change. We have an obligation to remind the electors of Oldham East and Saddleworth of the broken Liberal Democrat pledge of 3,000 more police on the streets, and of their broken pledge to oppose any change in the law on universal jurisdiction. Those things will not go by unnoticed.
As I said, an upheaval is taking place in the Jewish community. The attitudes of leading Jews who have been vocal champions of Israel are becoming deeply critical of the current Israeli Government. One of the most active and vocal supporters of Israel has accused them of being in the process of turning Israel into an “apartheid state”.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out, the hypocrisy of the Liberal Democrats on universal jurisdiction is unlimited, as on so many matters. Week after week, their spokesman rose and vehemently opposed a change in the law for which he will vote tonight, just as Liberal Democrats voted last week in blatant breach of their election pledges.
Whatever change in the law the Government introduce for the most craven reasons, Tzipi Livni and her ilk will remain unwelcome in this country. What worries me is that without a valid and operable legal sanction—one currently exists, but the Bill will repeal it—and without the legal deterrent that the Bill removes, disapproval of the presence in this country of Livni, Netanyahu and their cronies will take forms that I and many others deplore.