Farming Community: Suicide

Chris Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to bring this debate to the Chamber today on what is a very difficult subject that clearly needs to be raised publicly so that the causes can be dealt with and the issue erased.

My lovely constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire has recently been rocked by a small number of suicides within our rural community. Small in number they may be, but they have had a massively disturbing effect on the families of the bereaved and on the communities that surround them. The farming community, not just in my constituency but right across the country, is tight knit, hard working and supportive of one another. We all know that farming can be a lonely occupation, that the working area is often remote and that isolated working is clearly the norm and certainly not the exception.

Regrettably, when looking at the figures of the National Farmers Union, I found that suicide among farmers is one of the highest of any occupation. It is male-dominated, especially for those under the age of 40. Statistics prove this, but, sadly, every statistic is not just a number but a human being and suicide has devastating effects on a family, a community and an industry. Such a loss has an effect not just immediately but for years, if not decades, after.

Last week in this place we acknowledged Mental Health Awareness Week. Well, it is about time. It is about time we talked about mental health and the pressures it brings to bear. For far too long, we, as a country, have been fully aware and prepared to talk publicly about physical health, but until the past few years we have looked on mental health as one of those taboo subjects.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is making an excellent point about mental health. What can we do? Let me explain why I ask that question. I am very worried about a farmer in my constituency, which is as rural as my hon. Friend’s, whose cattle have been infected with TB by badgers, making him feel very unsure about where his future lies. What can we do to help in that sort of situation?

[Chris Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. My view is that his farmer is certainly not alone. If my hon. Friend sticks with me through my speech, I am sure that he will hear many remedies and suggestions, which I hope the Minister will pick up on.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this timely Adjournment debate. I do not know whether he watches the farming programme on the BBC on Sunday night. On one or two occasions, it has highlighted some of the points that he made in his earlier remarks about farmers being isolated and under stress, particularly when animal disease is about. Very often, farmers find they have no one to consult or talk to because they are totally isolated. Will he tell us what his perception is later in his speech? Does he think that those farmers can access the services they need? Very often, they are very remote from a hospital.

[Chris Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising such a good point. Clearly, this issue is shared right across the country, including in his constituency and in mine. I will bring forward many points in my speech, which I hope the Minister will pick up on. This matter is the subject of television programmes and it is often talked about outside this place, but this House needs to be talking about it as well and Ministers and MPs need to be doing something about it.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

May I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter before the House? I spoke to him before this debate and reminded him of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions the week before last when I asked the Minister about suicides in the farming community. I represent Strangford, which is a rural constituency with large towns in the middle. I am aware of the suicides among the farming community and the pressures—financial pressures and family pressures—that bring on anxiety and depression. At DEFRA questions, I suggested to the Minister that there is the opportunity to have parish halls or community halls in rural communities available to address these issues as a one-stop shop where people can go to talk to someone about their anxiety and issues that concern them. There could be somewhere like this available in nearly every constituency. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that that might be a way forward?

[Chris Davies]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very good point. That is certainly one of the remedies that we need to be looking at. I was here for DEFRA questions when he asked his question, and I was delighted that the Minister at the Dispatch Box gave a very positive reply. I can see that the whole of DEFRA is very keen to do something about this endemic problem.

For so long, as I said, mental health was a taboo subject, never to be mentioned and preferably whispered about or, better still, even to be swept under the carpet. Thank goodness we are all now talking about it. There are television programmes on it. We can get to the problem and get the remedies in place to ensure that not just the farming community but other communities around the country do not have to go through such tragic events.

We are very lucky that we have many organisations that one can turn to when requiring help. I recently had the good fortune to visit the local branch of the Samaritans, based in Llandrindod Wells. I met the manager, Mrs Alison Davies, who introduced me to an outstanding team of volunteers who work both on the telephones and in their associated charity shop. They do a superb job with call cover as an avenue for discussion. They provide someone to talk to, 24 hours a day and covering all communities, whether rural or urban, near or far.

I regularly attend events organised by Mrs Elaine Stephens and her team, who run the Brecon and Radnorshire branch of RABI—the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution. This organisation raises much-needed funds for farmers to call on when they have fallen on hard times and helps to alleviate financial pressures, where needed, easing the stress and worry caused to those in the farming community. There is also the Farming Community Network, which does so much in Wales and across the United Kingdom, together with the Christian Centre for Rural Wales, based on the Royal Welsh showground.

I am very proud to mention the outstanding work that the young farmers clubs do. They carry out a tremendous amount of work for their communities.

[Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)]

I really do congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this debate to the House—it is of crucial importance. This does not apply just to rural seats such as his but also to mine, an urban seat surrounded by countryside—urbe in rus. He mentioned the young farmers clubs. Does he agree that we need to double down in focusing on the mental health of young people, in particular, because so often we miss these problems, particularly now, in this 24-hour culture with all the social media, where they are particularly vulnerable?

[Chris Davies]

My hon. Friend raises an extremely good point. The young farmers clubs’ age group goes up to 26. As I said, the majority of suicides in the farming community are among those under 40. There is just a small gap between the very young and the boundaries up to 40 years of age. The young farmers clubs play a vital role. We have to be careful for and look after all ages.

After these tragic circumstances, young farmers club members from the Radnor, Brecknock and Montgomeryshire branches have taken it on their own backs to do the three highest peaks challenge in their counties for Mind and the DPJ Foundation. Mind, as everybody in the Chamber knows, is an excellent organisation that carries out outstanding work across the country.

The DPJ Foundation is a charity that has come to my attention only since my area has been rocked by recent events. It was set up in 2016 by Emma Picton-Jones from west Wales, whose husband Daniel, who was under 40, tragically took his own life and left Emma a young widow and mother of two small children. The foundation aims to support people from rural communities with poor mental health, especially men in the agriculture sector. It does an amazing job of providing swift agriculture-focused support, and the service is entirely funded by fundraising. I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating Emma on the amazing courage she has shown with her foundation and the youth in our community for taking such initiative through their young farmers clubs.

[Peter Heaton-Jones (North Devon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. This issue concerns us in North Devon, as a largely rural and farming community. Sadly, across Devon and the south-west, the number of suicides is higher than the national average. That is partly being tackled by the excellent work he describes. Does he agree that a lot of good work can also be done in the local community, by talking, listening and teaching people to recognise the signs of those who are crying out for help—particularly men, who are so bad at expressing it?

[Chris Davies]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. His constituency is very similar to mine. The point I will hang my hat on is his final one. Men will not speak out about the fact that they have mental health issues and admit it to themselves or their families. The community around them are vital, with support from Government and charities.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me a second time. He has referred to young farmers clubs in his area. The Young Farmers Clubs of Ulster—our equivalent in Northern Ireland—are very active in providing social occasions and leisure activities, which are an outlet for the clear anxiety among farmers. They are very caring clubs and do great work. Young farmers clubs are very much the same in other parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Chris Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his endorsement. Young farmers clubs are a beacon in our countryside and do so much good; I am sure the Minister will agree. Sadly, we have seen funding cut for young farmers from local authorities in our area—but, my goodness me, £1 spent on young farmers clubs is returned to the community tenfold, twentyfold or one hundredfold. I cannot praise young farmers clubs enough.

I mentioned the terrible circumstances of my asking for this debate. I have also mentioned some of the outstanding organisations and charities that do so much to help address these issues, but now I need to turn to the reasons that drive people to their lowest point and, ultimately, to take their own lives. The one fact that has clearly shone through in my knowledge and research is that there is no one issue or set of circumstances, and therefore there is no one answer. We have to tackle the causes from many different angles. Some of the causes, pressures and worries are small, but when layered and compounded, they become a huge problem for the individual.

I am sure many were surprised when I asked that a DEFRA Minister respond to the debate, rather than a Minister from the Department of Health and Social Care. The reason for that is clear: we all know about the remedies and wonderful help available, but if we can take away the burden before it becomes too big, we will alleviate the need for support at that late stage—or, in some cases, when it is all too late.

I am pleased that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is responding to the debate. He is not only a very capable Minister who has worked in several Departments during his distinguished carrier, but he is also a farmer. He lives within the farming community and was born into it. He understands at first hand the pressures on farmers, the isolation of the occupation and therefore the worries that, for some, can turn into an unbearable burden.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I am exceedingly grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As a Welsh MP, he will be aware of my constituency having many farmers right across it, as well as heavily deindustrialised areas, so farming is very much in line with the wider sector. We still have sheep sales every August, which bring all the community together and become a wider discussion about what is happening in the farming community. Something that comes across consistently and clearly is that people do not really understand the sector. When someone attends the local hospital in my constituency and says, “I’m having problems with x, y and z,” the person they see says, “Well, why are you having a problem? You’re a farmer. You’ve got plenty of money. You’ve got no problems. There are no particular challenges.”

Whenever I talk to younger farmers or owners who have been in the industry for 40 or 50 years, it comes across that people often do not understand the pressures facing the farming industry, the farmers working in it and their wives and children. They do not understand the expectation to be up at dawn and go to bed when the sun goes down, with a constant merry-go-round of pressure. They are running businesses, but most people do not think of farms as businesses, and they have all those same pressures. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a need to improve understanding about the very active and live pressures facing the industry?

[Chris Davies]

I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is great to see somebody on the Labour Benches having such an understanding of his rural community, so I thank him for that.

I have been touched by the many messages of thanks I received when news of this Adjournment debate was announced. It certainly shows that the people in our communities and our constituencies want this subject tackled. I was extremely touched to receive several letters and emails from farmers in my own constituency, who have been brave enough—yes, I say brave enough—to write to me to tell me of their concerns and experiences, and how some of them have come very close to the edge because of their worries.

Of course, I am not going to divulge who has contacted me, but I have taken a few extracts from five letters so that the House can hear of the worry directly from the farmer. The first is:

“I started farming in 1979 and built the farm up to today where I am running 450 acres, 1200 breeding sheep and 70 cattle. We should have a comfortable lifestyle—but we do not! As long as there is food on the table and we can pay the bills, I am happy, but this is seldom the case”.

The second is:

“I am dismayed at the way farmers are being put under more and more pressure by the increasing demands for futile records which accomplish no logical sense, either in the form of animal welfare, animal distress or traceability. The ever-increasing pressure of inspections and financial penalties from an industry that cannot take more...financial burdens”.

From a 20-year-old:

“Paperwork has got out of control not only do I struggle to make ends meet but I am now taking on a third job—Where do we go when it all gets too much? Nowhere because we work 365 days a year”.

Another extract says:

“Some may not know they have issues and don’t recognise the signs (as I did) and for some—

for too many—

“it’s been too late.”

Finally:

“I used to spend one day a week walking—I found this very therapeutic. But I am unable to do this now owing to the pressure of work and all the deadlines of form filling and keeping record books up to date. At times during the last six months I have not wanted to live—The progression from this is to commit suicide.”

Those are powerful messages, as I am sure the whole House will agree, and those people are only a tiny fraction of those concerned in the industry.

Minister, I am afraid it is time to turn to your Department and to the agencies you have under your control. I would like to be clear that failures here are mirrored in devolved Governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. This is not a witch hunt, but we would like to see the waving of a magic wand over some of your agencies and the bonfire of some of the layers of rules and regulations—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am sure the hon. Gentleman means “his”—the Minister’s agencies and the Minister’s Department—rather than “your”, which would refer to the Chair. I am sure the hon. Gentleman means that, and I am just guiding him in the right direction.

[Chris Davies]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been told off in the most polite manner. I accept that fully of course and apologise.

Certainly, those outside would like the Minister to have a bonfire of some of the layers of rules and regulations. That would be a massive relief for so many people.

There are external factors as well. I am not going to spend time talking about the weather, which is always a great concern to farmers in both the uplands and the lowlands. It is of course only God almighty that can make a difference there. Saying that, however, when extremes such as drought or heavy snow happen, Government support is a must and the guarantee of support in such extremes would lift a burden. I am not going to dwell on the fact that farmers have access to the means of committing suicide—guns, poisons and so on—because I do not want farmers to think that these means will be subject to further regulation or removal altogether, which would be an impossibility in agriculture, adding more stress to them. Such items are the tools of the trade in this occupation and they are necessities on their farms.

As I have mentioned, many of the problems that put pressure on our farmers are small, but when compounded with others and dwelt on over many long and lonely hours, they become huge. We are all aware of the volatile markets and the problems that low prices at livestock markets can cause, including difficulties with cash flow and profitability. The same can be said for arable prices and the difference that a good or bad harvest can make.

Cash flow is always a worry. There was a time when the local farmer who was awaiting a subsidy cheque or payment from the auctioneer could go into the local bank branch and ask for an immediate overdraft to see them through the difficult weeks or months until the payment arrived. Today, there are very few local bank branches. A decision on a bank extension can now take many weeks, and the decision is taken many miles away—sometimes hundreds of miles away—whereas the local bank manager used to know the farm, the farmer, their parents and their grandparents.

We have already heard that TB tests are a worry for farmers. Apart from not knowing whether they will be closed down if a reactor is found, there are also the financial and cash-flow pressures, together with seeing the cattle themselves being stressed by having to go through the tests. Yet we seem to be far away from eradicating the disease for good, and with little light at the end of the tunnel.

A TB test is just one of the inspections that farmers have to contend with. There are now many inspections from different agencies, and the rules and regulations that must be complied with appear immense: the checking of the medicine book, the ear tag records, the movement licences, the Health and Safety Executive requirements—the list goes on and on. Rules and regulations and reasons for checks appear to be added daily, while the original rules and regulations never appear to be removed. Those inspections come with a heavy burden, and while farmers want to be farmers, they seem to be spending all their time filling in forms and completing administration. Believe me, Madam Deputy Speaker, anyone can make mistakes in their administration—even MPs, as I know all too well.

If a farmer makes a mistake, there will be a fine, a retention or a financial burden of some kind. If an agency makes a mistake or a payment is delayed, no interest or compensation is paid for its mistake—often, there is not even a deadline for them to report back to the farmer. That could be deemed to be very one-sided indeed. We see endless and sometimes pointless regulation, introduced with little warning and no clear plan for how it will work or the impact it will have on the industry. A prime example is the removal of general licences in England in the last few weeks.

A point that has regularly been raised with me is the constant bashing that farmers have taken in the media and the onslaught they receive on social media, which take their worries to a whole new level. One day, eating meat is healthy for us; the next day, it will kill us. One week, livestock farming is the cause of climate change; the next week, it is the best way of saving the natural environment. There are so many mixed messages for a farmer to dwell on during those many hours alone doing their job.

I have mentioned the constant form filling, which in recent years has moved online. That move online has been great, as long as one has broadband. Clearly, in areas such as mine and those of other Members, we have not seen joined-up thinking; the direction of travel has moved, but the preparations have not been made in the original broadband performance. That just adds extra stress for a farmer—another headache and another cause for concern.

I am sure that, having heard the points already raised, the Minister will not be surprised to know that, according to the British Association for Counselling and Psycho- therapy, recent research by the Farm Safety Foundation found that 81% of farmers under 40 believe that mental health is the biggest hidden problem facing farmers today, and 92% believe that promoting good mental health is crucial if lives are to be saved and farmers kept safe.

I have already said that I know the Minister will totally understand the content of the debate and my speech. The concerns will be familiar to him and so will the issues that need to be addressed. If by raising this issue in this House in the Palace of Westminster our farmers’ calls are listened to and actions are taken, and if we manage to stop one farmer from taking their own life, our time here will have been well spent.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Davies Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

We always want to work with the Opposition to ensure that the highest standards of environmental and marine welfare are maintained, but I should say that it is one of the opportunities that leaving the European Union gives us to ensure that Dutch vessels that have been using pulse fishing in our waters end that cruel practice.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

2. What plans he has for farming policy after the UK leaves the EU.

[The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

The Agriculture Bill will underpin an ambitious new system based on paying public money for public goods. This will support a profitable farming sector that produces world-class food while protecting and enhancing our precious countryside.

[Chris Davies]

Will my right hon. Friend reassure the farmers of Brecon and Radnorshire, and indeed the farmers of the United Kingdom, that whether there is a deal or no deal, their future will be of paramount importance once we leave the EU?

[Mr Goodwill]

I can reassure my hon. Friend that farmers will be of paramount importance no matter which scenario we end up with. With regard to upland farmers, I can reassure him that my Department is in close contact with the sheep sector in preparing for these scenarios. Indeed, at yesterday’s EFRA Select Committee I specifically referenced the effect of EU most-favoured nation tariffs on sheep exports in a no-deal scenario.

Agriculture Bill (Thirteenth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Public Bill Committees

The issue of cross-border properties and farm holdings applies particularly to Wales; I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, my friend and neighbour, is here. Again, there needs to be a little more clarity so that we know exactly how these will operate post Brexit. If there are disputes on the Welsh or English side of the border, how can those farms take up those issues? Will they have to resort to costly legal action? Will both Governments be arguing and playing politics? My contention is that, if we were to have some sort of an oversight—an overarching body, an independent council of UK Ministers—that would at least afford us the opportunity to take the matter out of politics and have independent arbitration, which would, I hope, ensure that a particular farm on the border of Brecon or Radnor, for example, did not lose out.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman has given me a great opportunity to come in. I sympathise with a lot of what he is saying, and my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon, sitting in front of me, has been nodding in agreement on various things. However, does the hon. Gentleman not have concerns, as I do, about certain things that come out of the DEFRA Department of the Welsh Government as a result of having too much authority in cases such as this? I understand his request for a framework, which we are all working towards, but if we give that Department too much power, Brecon and Radnorshire, and Ceredigion, will be in hot water indeed.

[Ben Lake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I acknowledge and accept what he is saying: there is always a danger that we may not agree with what the Welsh Government want to do, particularly with regard to agriculture. I share that concern. However, I assure him that he need not worry and wait for too long—before long, my own party will be in government.

I fear that I have rambled on for long enough. This is a probing amendment, so I will not be pushing it to a Division—

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice]

Well, they are similar. Neither has to have a dispute resolution process. Some do and some do not. We have a number of concordats in the fisheries sphere. A concordat tends to be slightly more formal than an MOU, which is a looser agreement.

Let me turn to the points made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion. On subsection (1) of the new clause, we envisage concordats and MOUs pulling Ministers together in the way that I have described. On subsection (2)(d), as I said, we already have processes for managing cross-border cases. On subsection (3), we already have, as I said, the devolution settlement. On subsection (3)(b), about maintaining,

“as a minimum, equivalent flexibility for tailoring policies”

to that which we have in the EU, that is not saying very much—we do not have a lot of flexibility, to be honest, and we would like to give more.

One of my most memorable experiences in DEFRA has been being informed of a dispute that the Welsh Government were having with the EU about ear tags. In Wales, where there are hedges, ear tags can sometimes be pulled off by the brambles in a hedge, so animals used to have one small tag—a metal clip tag—and one larger tag that could be read, but the EU said that that was not good enough and the two tags had to be the same size, so that there were two dangling tags. The matter ended up going to court, and we had to get involved to support the Welsh Government in arguing their case. That is the kind of flexibility that we have in the EU—not very much. We would like to have far more.

My final point is this. Yesterday I was in Cardiff: the occasion was a joint ministerial meeting with the DEFRA Ministers. The meeting was hosted by Lesley Griffiths of the Welsh Government. Lesley put forward a proposal, which we agreed yesterday, that we should put that group of, in effect, the Agriculture and DEFRA Ministers on to a more formal footing, with clear terms of reference established, so that it could manage the EU exit process and possibly have a role thereafter, but also work up a memorandum of understanding about how we approach some of these issues together. Therefore, in addition to the Joint Ministerial Committee process, which itself is being reviewed to try to iron out some of the difficulties and make it more effective, we have a memorandum of understanding under development through the meeting that has been convened with the DEFRA Ministers. As I said, I was in Cardiff discussing that only yesterday.

[Chris Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for updating us. May I ask which organisation will take precedence?

[George Eustice]

Always, in a memorandum of understanding or concordat, we are in effect talking about issues that are devolved. They are issues that are technically devolved but on which we all recognise that there is sense in having common frameworks, so we voluntarily come back together for a concordat—to reach an agreement. We do that already in the veterinary sphere, for instance, in agriculture. There is a veterinary concordat whereby all parts of GB sign up to an Animal and Plant Health Agency surveillance programme, and it works very well, so we have demonstrated that we can do this. But ultimately these are areas of policy that are devolved and devolved provisions of the Bill.

Agriculture Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Committee Debate: 14th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 20th November 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman on many of those points. In fact, my local authority, Powys County Council, is investing in the county farm structure, which is really positive. Is the hon. Gentleman proposing that county councils—national Government, in fact—invest in smallholdings? Does he agree with the shadow Chancellor that we should do away with all private farms and have community farms?

[Dr Drew]

That would be a very good thing in the sense that we would have much more access to the land. I do talk to the shadow Chancellor from time to time, and he is very keen on the idea that land is available, not by sequestration, but by taking it into public ownership to give people the chance to farm. That is what we are about here. This is very important.

[Chris Davies]

Following on from the shadow Chancellor’s background, the hon. Gentleman says, “taking farms into public ownership”. I am very interested in that definition.

[Dr Drew]

I will be very careful. I will reword what I said. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt read what I said when the Official Report is published. I am very clear that there has always been a role for some public ownership of land through local authorities, because that is an avenue by which people can come into farming. It is simply much more difficult—I talk from some experience here. A long time ago, I chaired the county farms estate in Gloucestershire when I was a county councillor. I saw people coming through, desperate to get on the land, and it was always really sad that we had to turn down very good people because never enough holdings became available for the numbers chasing them. Too often, it was not necessarily the farmers themselves but who their partners were that was a vital factor in who got the holdings, which I always thought was grossly unfair. That was the reality of trying to make good what is a difficult operation.

I am merely making the point that we ought to do more to protect county farms and smallholdings. I want to grow them but, at the moment, there should be an embargo on the future sale. The old acre for acre policy was always sensible; somebody sold a bit of land and invested in a new bit of land. The problem is a wholesale reduction of the county farms estate, which precludes many people from coming into farming.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice]

There will definitely be a Bill dealing with animal sentience and sentencing. As I speak, we are considering where we might be able to fit those particular provisions into future legislation.

The hon. Lady asked whether there is a division between DEFRA and the Treasury. There is not. Within Government there are discussions, obviously, and then there is a consensus and an agreement. She kindly offered to protect the Secretary of State through the proposed new clause, but I can assure her that the Secretary of State needs no protecting; he is very good at making his case within Government. We already have some statutory targets through international agreements in areas such as climate change, but we believe that environmental targets and objectives should be picked up through the 25-year environment plan—there were some objectives in that plan—and are fundamentally a matter for the environment Bill. I am sure that she will be very engaged in discussions about that Bill when it comes forward.

I turn to new clause 19, tabled by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Stroud, which concerns the importance of advice and guidance. The Government agree with him about the importance of advice and guidance, particularly as we roll out a new scheme, but clause 1 is absolutely clear that we can already pay for advice and guidance. Subsection (1) of that clause states:

“The Secretary of State may give financial assistance for or in connection with any of the following”.

The term “in connection with” enables us to make financial assistance available to support advice, and I want to spend a little bit of time explaining what the Government intend to do in this area.

As I touched on during an earlier debate on other clauses, we envision the new environmental land management scheme as effectively a covenant or contract between individual farmers and the Government. We intend to support a system in which farmers would be able to receive advice on the design of an environmental land management contract. That advice might come from an agronomist accredited by a UCAS Government scheme or from one of our employees from Natural England, or a third-party organisation like the Wildlife Trust might develop a cohort of people who could provide that advice. Having worked with the farmer, visited the farm, walked to the farm and not got too obsessed by maps, form-filling and all the rest of it, they can sit around the table with the farmer, help them put together the agreement, and then sign it off with the presumption that it will be supported and paid for.

We want to get back to a system in which there is much more human interaction, and in which trusted agronomists, trusted advisers who are accredited by the Government, and Government officers from agencies such as Natural England work directly with farmers. We do not want everyone to get bogged down in paperwork, form-filling, mapping and having to spend hours on a helpline, only to find that nobody can help them with their query. We have got a great opportunity to redesign the system.

The hon. Member for Stroud said that, as this is a new scheme, there will potentially be challenges in getting farmers used to it. I understand his point, but until a couple of years ago about 70% of farmers were in either an entry-level stewardship or a higher-level stewardship scheme, so by and large they are very familiar with these types of agri-environment schemes. They have run similar schemes previously, so I think they will be able to pick up these schemes and adapt to them.

The other thing we are doing is having a seven-year transition in which we gradually wind down the single farm payment. During that time we will be piloting the new system. That gives us plenty of time to familiarise farmers with the new system, and to perfect the system, so that when we roll it out fully we do not have problems along the way, and to ensure that we have the capacity to give advice in the area to which the hon. Gentleman alludes.

The other point I want to address is about the holistic advice to farmers. We have been looking at projects run by a number of organisations, including the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, which gives a lot of technical advice and has a network of what it calls monitor farms so that it can share good practice and knowledge transfer, and the Prince’s Countryside Fund, which runs very good peer-to-peer support groups to help farmers with their business management and help them address change. It has had some success with that. We are keen to learn from that as we roll out support for farmers. As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, farming can be a very lonely business. I grew up in a farming community, so I am familiar with the issues. There has always been the great tragedy of high levels of suicide in agriculture—usually about 50 a year. That figure has been fairly constant for a number of decades. We want to ensure that, as we go through this period of change, we give farmers all the support we can to help them adjust and move to a new system.

New clause 27 is all about county farms, about which the hon. Member for Stroud and I share a passion. This is the first time today I have been able to mention the 1947 Act. As he is aware, sections 47 onwards and part 4 of the Act established county farms and the right of local authorities to buy them. The new clause looks familiar because, although we often say that this is the first Agriculture Bill since 1947, that is not quite true. It is the first major Agriculture Bill since 1947, but of course there was the Agriculture Act 1970, which rolled forward some of the provisions from the 1947 Act and changed others. It created the requirement for local authorities to submit a plan to the Department and seek our agreement for any consolidation and reorganisation. That was a time-limited power, and I understand that new clause 27 is effectively attempting to replicate it. Earlier this year we laid before Parliament—I have to sign these off every year—the 67th annual smallholdings report, under section 5 of the 1970 Act, so there are still some requirements under that Act.

I want to explain what we intend to do about county farms. My view is that we should create a financial incentive for local authorities to invest in and commit to their county farms in the long term. The idea that I have in mind is to create, under clause 1(2), a fund for investment in county farms that is open to local authorities, subject to their submitting to us a clear plan demonstrating their long-term commitment to their county farm estate. I would like to see more emphasis placed on turning county farms into what might be called incubator holdings, to genuinely support new entrants. At the moment the problem is that once people get on to a county farm, they often get stuck there for 20 or 30 years and do not have the ability to progress.

Our idea is to look at what we can learn from other parts of the economy where there are, for instance, innovation centres offering mentoring for setting up new businesses; where the local enterprise partnership might be involved, working with the local authority to draw down additional funding; where it might be made a requirement for local authorities to have partnership agreements with private estates, so that they have farms to move farmers on to after five years; and where we might also support the development of peri-urban farms on other parts of local authority land.

[Chris Davies]

I am pleased to hear the Minister’s proposals. Can he confirm that they will apply UK-wide and not just to England?

[George Eustice]

The scheme would be for England only, for the reasons I have outlined.

I hope that the hon. Member for Stroud understands that, rather than drafting a clause that requires that to be done, I believe that we can deliver the outcome we seek simply by establishing a fund to help local authorities invest in a county farm estate, subject to meeting conditions that demonstrate their long-term commitment to the scheme.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Davies]

I have had concerns about the Rural Payments Agency. Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that opening up a consultation is just going to confuse and delay matters? Surely the Minister should just decide which organisation is going to administer it and then get on with it.

[Dr Drew]

If the Minister wants to say today that he has some brand spanking new agency in his back pocket that is going to take over and run this, we are more than happy to listen and give our support. I am merely the messenger saying that I still receive countless complaints about late payments, wrong payments and reasons unknown for people not receiving the moneys they thought they should have received. The field margins and the way in which the scheme was set up was unduly complicated, but this will potentially be as complicated, and some would say more complicated.

Why can we not just listen and learn from past mistakes and at least give people an opportunity to help frame what could replace the Rural Payments Agency? It has already taken on many Natural England employees, so it is ready for its new incarnation, but I am worried about skill levels, about the computer system and about how this will be perceived if we start on the back foot with an agency that has not been fit for purpose.

I will not cast aspersions on the people who work for the RPA—no doubt they work long hours to try to get things right—but there has been something integrally wrong with the way it has operated for a long time. I am giving the Minister an open goal to shoot at—a way for us to move forward across the party divide to try to get an agency that is fit for purpose for a very different type of agricultural scheme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Drew]

Again, there are going to be commercial obligations, because the fact is that we are looking for a ban. As far as I know, both parties have talked about this quite openly. Certainly representatives of the parties have talked about it. We looked at it as regards the withdrawal agreement. From memory, and we will come on to live exports later, it is one of the things that certain people prayed in aid of the advantage of leaving the EU—that is, that we could bring about some of these animal welfare changes. It was a crucial argument. It was not quite as big an argument as the £350 million a week for the NHS, but it was nevertheless an argument.

[Chris Davies]

The hon. Gentleman mentions animal welfare. Is this an opportunity for Members on his side of the House to put animal rights views forward? Is this the place to be bringing this up?

[Dr Drew]

Again, I make the point that we have limited opportunity to consider legislative change. As far as I know, the hon. Member for Crawley is hardly some animal rights activist who has been out on demonstrations to demand that this practice ends. He is a Conservative MP whose constituents have no doubt written to him saying that it is not something that they wish to condone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Drew]

I thank my hon. Friend for that clarification. It is important because, as I have said, animals move backwards and forwards over that border for fattening purposes or other reasons. We do not intend to ban that.

We are debating this issue here because this is an agriculture Bill. If we do not, whatever one’s opinion on the issues are, people will cast aspersions that we have not done our job as Opposition Members and that the Government have not put on the record their current thinking. Until recently, the Government were using banning live exports as one argument for leaving the EU. Is that still the Government’s case or not?

[Chris Davies]

rose—

[Dr Drew]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can clarify that.

[Chris Davies]

People voted to leave the EU for many different reasons; I do not think the hon. Gentleman’s putting his hat on that one necessarily makes it the reason for Brexit.

I ask for clarity, because proposed subsection (2)(a) suggests that the Opposition are quite happy for livestock to be exported from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. From what I remember of geography, it is about 50 miles across the Irish sea, whereas it is about 23 miles across the Bristol channel. It is interesting that the Opposition would allow animals to travel, say, 200 miles within the island of Ireland and to the Irish border, 50 miles across that sea and then to go on perhaps another 200 or 300 miles on the UK mainland, while seeming averse to allowing cattle or sheep from within the UK to go any further. The export of sheep is very important to Welsh farmers.

[Dr Drew]

I am not sure that I actually said that, but I re-emphasise that we would not stop any live exports within the United Kingdom, for so long as the United Kingdom exists. As my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington says, we would even allow live exports within the island of Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Drew]

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying that, so I do not need to—

[Chris Davies]

rose—

[Dr Drew]

If you want to re-clarify that clarification, feel free.

[The Chair]

Order. I am getting closer to the Front Bench so I can rap you over the knuckles. “You” means me, and I do not have an opinion on this. Allow me to rephrase that: when I am in the Chair, I do not have an opinion—I am strictly impartial.

[Chris Davies]

Thank you, Sir Roger—and I am thanking “you”.

I just want clarity on the reasons for the ban, that is all. Why do Opposition Members think that it is cruel for animals to travel 23 miles across the Bristol channel but not cruel for them to travel all that distance across the Irish sea?

--- Later in debate ---

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington, who did a sterling job to get me out of the mire on more than one occasion, my Whip, my other hon. Friends and all hon. Members. I always think a Bill Committee is rather like a family—we have our differences of opinion, we were thrust together by no choice of our own, but we managed to make some progress, albeit not as much as we wanted.

[Chris Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Drew]

In a second—just let me finish my peroration.

I thank Rob Wakely, who did a sterling job to keep us on the straight and narrow, and Jessica Cobbett from my office, who helped me on more than one occasion. I thank the civil servants, who have done a really good job, and the Minister. I feel sorry for him, because he will have to start all over again tomorrow with the Second Reading of the Fisheries Bill. As much as we think we have done our bit, he still has to do his.

I give way to the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire.

[Chris Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I have nothing to add—I am just enjoying intervening on him.

[Dr Drew]

If nothing else, that gave me a chance to rest my voice.

This is an important Bill. We got it through in time—it is a good job we left enough. Although I am using this opportunity to thank everyone from both the Opposition and the Government, I hope that, to finish with, we will hear some good noises about tenancy reform. People will be watching, listening or reading even at this stage because their livelihoods depend on that, so the Minister should listen and, if nothing else, accept this final new clause.

Agriculture Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Thursday 15th November 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Colin Clark (Gordon) (Con)]

I will be mercifully brief, as other hon. Members have covered many of the matters.

I have been a farmer and been involved in agriculture for a number of years. We work in cycles of five, seven or 10 years. As the hon. Member for Stroud has just said, a multi-annual financial framework is an essential part of agriculture. As we mentioned in earlier debates, it is particularly important that we do not allow the agricultural budget to become politicised and subject to annual discretionary spending decisions, and that parties of all colours are able to recognise the long-term commitment to agriculture.

The Scottish NFU is supportive of the amendment. The Minister is obviously influenced by the Treasury, which influences everything, and I hope that we give power to his elbow. It is important that the Treasury understands that the long-term commitment, as in many other industries, is very important for the farming industry.

We are not going to press the amendment to a vote, but it is noteworthy that a Welsh colleague, an English colleague and a Scottish colleague support it. In seeking to represent Scottish farmers, I reiterate that I very much want to see a multi-annual framework.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I am sure that there is a good story in there somewhere about a Welsh MP, an English MP and a Scottish MP, but we shall not go down that route at this moment. [Interruption.] It is after lunch, after all.

I am delighted to support the amendment. My hon. Friends the Members for Ludlow and for Gordon have made very convincing cases, and I am pleased to see the hon. Member for Stroud also making a convincing case. Farming, as we all know, is a long-term measure, and there are many farmers among Conservative Members. We have not just visited a farm on the recommendation of the NFU; we are involved in farming on a daily basis. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister, who is from a farming family, will be well aware of the need for long-term funding, which is important in farming for breeding and planting.

I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on forestry, and long-term funding is vital for the future of the forestry sector and the wood industry. With softwood, the period from planting to profit is probably 40 years. With hardwood, it is 80 to 100 years. It is very important that schemes are in place to ensure the correct funding. I am delighted to support the amendment and I am sure and very much hope that the Government will look on it positively.

[George Eustice]

Like my hon. Friends the Members for Ludlow, for Gordon and for Brecon and Radnorshire, I understand that this is a critical issue. I agree with the sentiment that we can put into the Bill all the powers we like and come up with all the creative policy we like, but that they will not mean anything without money to underpin them.

For reasons that the Committee will understand, I will not support the amendment. Before I come on to that point, however, it is important to recognise what we have already done to acknowledge the importance of clarity on funding. At the last general election, we made a commitment to keep the total cash spent on agriculture at the same level for the duration of this Parliament until 2022. That breached and went beyond a Treasury spending review period, but the Conservative party took the decision that it was right and proper to prejudge the spending review process so that we could give clarity and certainty to farmers.

The challenge, as I understand it, is that the scheme is currently funded in a roundabout way by our sending money to Brussels and then getting it back. The concern that some farmers will have is whether the Government will be willing to support the scheme. My view is that the approximately £3 billion that we currently spend every year on agriculture and the farmed environment is relatively modest in the context of other areas of Government spending. Some Departments—perhaps including a Department that my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow is familiar with—regularly accidentally overshoot their national budget. Given what it delivers for the farmed environment that covers 70% of our land, for habitats, for water and air quality, and for our important environmental objectives, £3 billion is a fairly modest sum.

As the policy returns home and we take back control, there will be a responsibility on Parliament—and on political parties in their manifestos—to demonstrate their commitment to our farmed environment and wildlife. We know that wildlife organisations have huge memberships: the RSPB and the Wildlife Trust each have between 1.7 million and 2 million members. We know that the British public are passionate about their countryside, wildlife and environment and want us to give them due priority and support.

We have therefore not only committed to keeping the cash total the same until 2022 but made a manifesto commitment to implement and fund a new environmental land management scheme after that. We have not described the total quantum of funding after 2022, but there is an absolute commitment for there to be a funded policy. We have also made it clear that agreements entered into by the end of 2022 under the existing pillar 2 schemes—some of which will run for a decade—will all be funded for the duration of their terms. I believe that we have done a lot in the area already.

As a former Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow knows that in the long term these matters are ultimately dealt with through the spending review process. A spending review process is under way, and we expect it to conclude next year. By their very nature, spending reviews are multi-annual; they tend to set a financial envelope within a period such as five years. Departments also have other processes, such as single departmental plans and Supply estimates applied at departmental level, so that we have some continuity and multi-annual understanding in our approach to funding, rather than a stop-go process from year to year.

Finally, our new environmental land management scheme is predominantly designed around multi-annual agreements. There will not simply be one-off yearly payments; we envisage farmers entering into an agreement for three, five or possibly 10 years. It is implicit in the design that we have outlined for the scheme that a multi-annual understanding of funding will be needed.

I hope that I have been able to reassure my hon. Friend that I share his view that this matter is important and that I view the current spending on agriculture and the farmed environment as a relatively modest sum of money. We could deploy it far more effectively to achieve far more, but the spending review process is the right place to identify funding post 2022. I am sure that he and other colleagues will be making representations to the Chancellor and the Treasury on this matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Colin Clark]

I rise simply to thank the Minister for supporting the amendment and to echo the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith—this has been called for for quite some time, and it is good that just over £1.5 million will be spent on promoting Scotland. We have to remember that the vast majority of red meat is exported south of the border, and we are very grateful that the promotion will continue for the entire country.

[Chris Davies]

I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon, who is a joint signatory to the amendment. We both thank the Minister for supporting the amendment, discussing it with us and agreeing a way forward. This has been called for—not just by the farming unions, but by farmers themselves—for a very long time in Wales and, as we have just heard, in Scotland. I am sure that it is the same in England.

As somebody whose constituency is right on the border, I feel that what the Minister said is very appropriate. Sadly, so many slaughterhouses have closed that people cross borders with their stock. In Wales, we have lost a lot of revenue across Offa’s Dyke. Money has perhaps been spent not on Welsh land promotion, but on other things.

Opposition Members will certainly know how the meat levy is worked out: it is a jointly funded levy that is paid by both the producer and the slaughterer or exporter. Under Hybu Cig Cymru, the current price paid per head of cattle in Wales is £5.67. It is 83p per sheep, and £1.30 per pig. That may not sound like a great deal per item, but when one considers how many animals are slaughtered each year for consumption, both in this country and across the world, it adds up to a considerable amount of money that is sometimes not correctly spent on the area that the animals come from. This has been called for for a very long time, and I am delighted that the Government are supporting it under new clause 30.

[Dr Drew]

It is good to see how cross-party collaboration can have an impact. I congratulate Conservative Members on getting the Minister to move—it is important. I am not an expert on this part of the Bill; we do not have that much beef farming in my part of the world, but some dairy cows get slaughtered and it is important that we know the impact of the levy boards. I am interested in what happens in Northern Ireland, which is not part of the scheme. Can they be brought in?

I am interested to know to what extent the separate boards—the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, Hybu Cig Cymru operating in Wales and Quality Meat Scotland—will maintain their independence, given that the Bill, which is primary legislation, is making a change to how the moneys will be devolved. It would be useful to know to what extent the different organisations will maintain complete independence or whether the administration of the funding will become more complex. I suppose the AHDB would take over all responsibility and devolve the moneys down to the different organisations.

It is good. This is what primary legislation is for: to improve what we have at the moment and do it differently and better. It is pleasing that it seems that all the farming organisations are in favour of the proposal, so I cannot see any reason why the Opposition would not be in favour of it. Again, I would like some clarity about exactly how the scheme operates at the moment and the changes that are, hopefully, going to make it better. We support what is proposed and hope that this good bit of the Bill will receive unanimous support at every level of debate, both in this place and the other place.

Agriculture Bill (Ninth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 13th November 2018 Public Bill Committees

[George Eustice]

Yes, I can. We discussed this when we touched on clause 1, which is about the way in which we will support people. We heard representations from people engaged in small projects, such as agroecology projects, about whether they could have support. They are often not entitled to support under existing schemes, but I absolutely said that clause 1 will enable us to support those. Indeed, this is an area that we are looking at closely. Clause 1(2) gives us the power to award grants to some of those smaller businesses, including new entrants.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

Following the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow, the Minister mentioned that the schemes and their financing will continue. Can he reassure me and colleagues from across the various borders that the devolved nations will also continue to have the money over the period of the schemes?

[George Eustice]

Yes. The devolved nations have that retained EU law through the EU withdrawal Act. We have discussed previously that Scotland requires some kind of clause to be able to continue to make payments after we leave the European Union, but that is relatively easy to remedy. A combination of this Bill and the EU withdrawal Act gives us the power right across the UK to honour all those commitments that have been entered into.

Returning to clause 11, the hon. Member for Darlington asked whether subsection (3) is an exhaustive list or whether we can add to it. It is not exhaustive but it covers the bulk of the regulations. I will explain why we drafted it in that way. The regulations listed under subsection (3) are effectively all the current in-force rural development regulations. However, we have kept open the option to broaden the list slightly because we have some legacy schemes—older agreements under previous countryside stewardship or productivity EU schemes that are no longer technically in force—and we might still want the ability to modify and tweak them. The best way to describe it is to say that the list is not exhaustive, but is close to being exhaustive. It covers all the regulations currently in force, but we need just a slight amount of room to capture the previous legacy schemes that are no longer in force.

Agriculture Bill (Tenth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 13th November 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Deidre Brock]

There are significant areas of dispute between the two Governments; it is not politicking. We are hearing from NFU Scotland that there are issues it would like to see pursued by both Governments—I am quite prepared to acknowledge that it is both Governments—and I will be raising some of those points later.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

The hon. Lady’s description of Scotland could have been mistaken for a description of Wales—only Wales is a bit more beautiful perhaps. Is it not important for Scotland to align itself with Wales and support the Bill?

[Deidre Brock]

It has been said before that Wales has a different approach to the Bill. Of course, it is up to the Welsh Labour Government to choose to have a schedule inserted, but Wales voted to leave, and that puts a different spin on the Welsh Government’s approach.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice]

The regulations that we can make under part 3 of schedule 1 give us the power to add additional things. Although I am Agriculture Minister, I do not cover forestry and timber, so I will need to discuss that with my ministerial colleagues. It is certainly an option and the provision is there to enable us to add products.

[Chris Davies]

There are concerns on this side of the House—as well as on the Opposition Benches—about the forestry and timber industry. I doubly emphasise the need for the Minister to look at that.

[George Eustice]

I feel that this will be one of those unexpected issues that returns on Report. I will undertake in the meantime to talk to my ministerial colleagues responsible for the forestry industry.

Amendment 65 is a similar provision to that which we discussed in an earlier debate on producer organisations. It seeks to ensure that we could make measures in that area only with the consent of Scottish Ministers. We have adopted that approach because it is a competition matter that deals with the ability to have contractual changes linked directly to competition law—that is why it is a reserved matter. We are not doing anything new in that regard. The current Groceries Code Adjudicator is a UK-wide body; it operates UK-wide and the legislation that underpins it is UK-wide. The EU milk package is an example of a contractual fair-dealing provision under EU law. It applies UK-wide and can only be switched on and implemented on a UK basis. It is therefore a well-established fact that such issues, which pertain directly to competition law, are a reserved matter to be handled by the UK Government. That is why we do not accept that the provisions are necessary or acceptable.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice]

As I said, the GCA already has the powers to receive complaints anonymously and to investigate, where she has reason to suspect a breach of the code. That is already in place.

My point is not that this is not a legitimate issue—of course, as I said, the regulations can provide for anonymity—but that at some time we need people to have the confidence and courage to say, “I will not agree with that. It is against the code—you know it’s against the statutory code—and you shouldn’t be asking me to do it.” For such things to work properly, we need the farmers and sellers also to hold people to what is a legal requirement. They can play their part and, where they are willing to do so, that can make all the difference.

Amendment 87 is similar—it is about being able to launch investigations when there are reasonable grounds to suspect non-compliance, rather than when there is a complaint. Again, we believe that we can provide for that. It is important to note that whatever is set out as a legal requirement in clause 25(3) will be a legal requirement whether or not there is a complaint. Subsection (5) deals predominantly with complaints and how they are handled, we do not envisage the body as simply a complaints-handling one; we see it as an enforcement body that will enforce all the legal requirements introduced under the Bill, specifically clause 25. It will not only handle complaints and pass them on.

[Chris Davies]

Conservative Members, too, have concerns about the powers of the Groceries Code Adjudicator. Farmers and suppliers tell me regularly that the GCA’s teeth are not sharp enough. Will the Minister reassure me, as he has the Opposition, that there are provisions not only in the Bill but in other places where the powers are strong enough, and that if we need to increase the powers there is a mechanism to do so?

[George Eustice]

The clause provides quite strong powers, including those to impose penalties for non-compliance on the first purchaser of agricultural products. If such a first purchaser happens to be a major retailer— perhaps one not currently covered by the groceries code, because it is below a certain threshold—it will be covered by the Bill. By addressing the problem from both ends of the telescope, we have a workable solution that means we can really deliver for the interests of farmers while not losing the successes of the Groceries Code Adjudicator model.

Having given that reassurance that the issues raised by the hon. Member for Stroud in amendments 86 and 87 can already be addressed through regulations under subsection (5), I hope that he will accept it and withdraw his amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his praise—as praise indeed it was—but, unlike him, I am happy with the Minister’s response and I shall be voting with the Government.

[Dr Drew]

Sadly—I thought we might have enticed the hon. Gentleman over to this side. It could have made all the difference, and the Government would have, in due course, thought that it was great that Back Benchers spoke for themselves and voted accordingly. One always has these hopes that might be dashed at a later stage. We will press the amendment to a vote, but we hope the Government will understand that we are willing and able to see how this can be improved on Report.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Agriculture Bill (Eighth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2018 Public Bill Committees

[George Eustice]

The power to create new offences is in the Welsh schedule. It is a decision for the Welsh Government whether they wish to change that as the Bill progresses. That is clearly a decision for them, and I will not give any indication about what they might do.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I find it quite strange to be in great sympathy with the hon. Member for Stroud, but, after that direct answer from the Minister, which I thank him for, I urge him to have another look at the clause. We look forward to discussing it on Report. We have concerns.

[George Eustice]

I very much look forward to discussing the issue further on Report. As I said, in considering the mood and sentiment of the Committee, I undertake further to discuss the issue with Government colleagues and to report back to the House on Report. I hope that, on that basis, the hon. Member for Stroud will agree to withdraw his amendment and keep his powder dry for another day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

I want to raise one point with the Minister, which I hope he will be able to cover. We have heard already that about a third of the farm land in this country is farmed through tenancies. Indeed, a tenancy is probably the only way that many new applicants can get into the industry, other than marrying into money or winning the lottery. However, there may be situations where taking these payments is attractive to the tenant, but where the landlord is unwilling for that to happen, particularly as the basic payments underwrote the rent in many cases, as we heard in evidence. Indeed, we heard that in many cases the rent was basically dictated by the basic payments.

My question for the Minister is, will the consent of the landlord be required before a tenant can take one of these multi-annual exit schemes? If not, might we then have the landlord looking at the small print of the tenancy agreement and going into the whole dilapidations situation? Many people leaving a tenancy can find clauses requiring the guttering to be painted or the gateposts to be straightened. Often, tenants find that they cannot leave because of the dilapidations. Where the landlord wants a tenant to leave, he will waive the dilapidations, so a lot of these payments might get mopped up by angry landlords demanding dilapidations at the end of tenancies.

[Chris Davies]

I have a query, which I am sure the Minister will be able to answer easily, relating to the decoupling of cross-border farms. There are many on the Welsh-English border, as there are on the English-Scottish border, that will own land in both England and Wales, or both England and Scotland. I can give many examples of farmers in my constituency who own land in Herefordshire or Shropshire—well, not much of Shropshire, because my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow owns most of Shropshire.

[Mr Dunne]

None in Shropshire.

[Chris Davies]

None in Shropshire, all in Herefordshire—all in Wales.

[Simon Hoare]

He just owns Wales.

[Chris Davies]

There are many farmers in Herefordshire and Shropshire who will own land 30, 40 or 50 miles into Wales, so does Minister foresee any difficulty with decoupling in cross-border schemes if both devolved areas end up with different schemes?

[George Eustice]

We have had a comprehensive debate, and I want to pick up on some of the points that were made.

The Opposition’s amendment 107 is about making provisions for determining the status of those persons who have received de-linked payments where the agricultural transition period has been extended. That links to the point that I addressed earlier. We are setting a clear course here, and if a decision is made under clause 7 to de-link all payments, as far as we are concerned there will be no turning back at that point. It will be possible, under subsection (1)(a), to continue with the basic payment scheme and make a decision to extend, but if at a later stage of the transition period a decision is taken to de-link all payments, from our point of view it is not possible at that point to turn back, nor would we want to do so. If at that point we decided that we still wanted an old-style subsidy system, the right thing to do would be to pass new primary legislation because that would be a major departure from what we envisage in the Bill.

I was asked about de-linking and about what will happen at the end and whether we will put conditions on what people can spend the payment on. During the transition, we envisage there being a progressive, year-on-year phasing down of the BPS payment. Alongside that, we will roll out new grants for such things as productivity, and we will roll out the new environmental land management scheme.

There is already a huge amount of bureaucracy, inspection and tedious form filling behind the BPS payment. If in year three, four or five the BPS payment is considerably smaller than it is now, farmers will rightly say, “Isn’t this a sledgehammer to crack a nut? Our BPS payment is much smaller, yet we still have this extraordinary inspection regime, we still have to employ agents to fill out all the forms, and we still have to have someone from the Rural Payments Agency come to walk our fields and inspect everything.” At that point, people will rightly ask whether the enforcement architecture surrounding the BPS payment fits the size of the payment, given that it is necessarily being phased out.

That is why our view is that if we de-link the payment we will not attempt to put conditions on that, because it will be a diminishing sum of money anyway towards the latter part of transition. We have not decided when to de-link. That might come later; it could be at the beginning—that is provided for. We would consult on that, but my expectation is that for a period we would phase down the existing BPS payment. A point would then come when, frankly, having all the architecture that we have now to enforce it would cease to be justifiable, and simply de-linking to get the system closed down would be the right thing to do.

The answer to the Landworkers Alliance, the members of which generally complain to me that they are ineligible for the BPS payment at the moment anyway, is that in so far as some of them might be eligible, if they took a de-linked payment they would be able to spend it on anything they wanted, as would any other farm.

A slightly separate provision—although it is linked, and they overlap in some respects—is clause 7(7), which creates a parallel power for us effectively to do what I described earlier: make a rolled-up payment of several years to a farmer who might be deciding to leave the land. We may exercise that whether or not we had de-linked. It will be open to us to run a scheme basically to make an exit payment to farmers, with several years rolled up in one, even if we are proceeding on the basis of clause 7(1)(a)—that is the phase-down. It will also be open to us to do it under subsection (1)(b), but if we were using subsection (1)(b) towards the end of the process to free everyone from the need to have their payment linked to the land, it might be less attractive at that point as an exit package.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Davies]

As the Minister has had a very busy day and has overlooked answering my question, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman—whose constituency is, of course, not far from the border—shares my concerns about cross-border land ownership, and areas where there are devolved Governments, where decoupling could cause a problem.

[Dr Drew]

We need some lawyers in England, but we will need some multilingual lawyers when it is a matter of England and Wales. That is an absolutely fair point, and perhaps the Minister will want to intervene on me to give clarity—or not, as the case may be.

Agriculture Bill (Sixth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab)]

I rise to support amendments 70 and 51. In response to the hon. Member for North Dorset, I should say that it is unfair to say that either amendment places an onus on the producer regarding what goes on to the plate of individuals who decided what or what not to buy.

Both amendments, in particular amendment 70, seek to increase the availability, affordability, diversity, quality and marketing of fruit, vegetables and other items. The Bill seeks to take a wider view of the agricultural sector—to see it right from the start to the end. We are looking now at where the Secretary of State can place moneys to emphasise and promote. When we talk about public health, one aspect is the food itself but another is the overriding story—and I use that word carefully. There is the mental health approach that flows from good quality food, when people understand the nutritional value of the purchase and the story back to the individual farm or farmers who produced it.

This country’s health should be broader than just the narrow nutritional value and include children’s understanding of where their meat, vegetables and fruit come from. One aspect, raised and agreed across the House, is the importance of the educational element. That is the responsibility of farmers but also of communities, parents and the Government. Should our farmers not benefit financially if they open their farms, against some very strict health and safety protocols, to allow children in to see where the potatoes and carrots grow in the fields, as they do in my constituency of East Lothian? That is an important element of growing up that, along with seasonality, has become separated from a lot of children’s and citizens’ understanding of the availability of food.

Both the amendments, in particular amendment 70, lend emphasis to that, to give the Secretary of State the opportunity to provide support to that wider educational and nutritional need. It is not a case of the Secretary of State dictating what does or does not go on to somebody’s plate or what they choose to do with food when they purchase it; the issue is about the ability to put that holistic view envisaged by the Bill and to allow farmers to receive payments and support for the good work that they can do at their stage.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

The amendment proposes allowing the Secretary of State to enhance payments to farmers. If there were a vegetarian, or even a vegan, Secretary of State who decided, after reading one report one week and another the next, that eating meat was no longer in the public interest and no longer healthy, would the amendment also allow the Secretary of State to remove all payments to the red meat industry?

[Martin Whitfield]

I hark back to the vote we previously had on the difference between “must” and “may” and probably leave it at that.

The only other point that I want to raise is that the producers, as well as being under an obligation to produce, would, under amendment 70, be allowed funding for research and development for improved crop varieties and cultivation methods. That will be important going into the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sandy Martin]

The House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report stated that if the Bill is passed in its present form,

“Parliament will not be able to debate the merits of the new agriculture regime because the Bill does not contain even an outline of the substantive law that will replace the CAP after the United Kingdom leaves the EU”.

What the House of Lords was looking for and what, I believe, farmers are looking for is a far clearer expression of the support that farmers will get and the activities for which they will get that support than is expressed in the Bill.

However, at least one thing is clear in the Bill as it stands. The Secretary of State does not envisage rewarding farmers just for being farmers. They need to be supporting the public good. I think farmers would support that, but the problem is defining exactly what the public good is and the extent to which any definition should be left entirely to the Secretary of State, rather than laid out clearly in the Bill. If the hon. Member for Ludlow supports the idea that access to healthy local food grown sustainably is a public good, I am a little mystified as to why he could not support our amendment.

We all want what is best for this country. One of the supposed benefits of Brexit was that it would enable us to decide for ourselves what would be the best agricultural support regime, rather than having to rely on the common agricultural policy. However, I am afraid that amendments 88, 89 and 90 fall down at that hurdle, because they very much advocate supporting farmers simply for being farmers. In the words of amendments 88 and 89, following the meaning across from one amendment to the second:

“The Secretary of State may also give financial assistance”

to

“those with an interest in agricultural land, where the financial assistance relates directly to that land.”

In other words, that means paying farmers for being farmers or, indeed, paying landowners for being landowners, which neatly expresses the worst aspects of the current operation of the common agricultural policy.

I have been a keen advocate of much of the support and protection that we have achieved through our membership of the European Union, and I fear that we will lose a good deal of it when we leave. However, even I would never claim that the common agricultural policy is perfect, and the UK has been at the forefront of attempting to reform it over the years. I think that that reform was intended to ensure that any financial support through the common agricultural policy aligns better with the support of the public good, but I do not believe that it was altogether successful. Payments to landowners simply for being landowners is one of the aspects of the common agricultural policy that this Bill was designed to end, so amendments 89 and 90 would be a serious step backwards.

[Chris Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sandy Martin]

I am sorry, but I have finished.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Davies]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wilson. I, too, have taken great pleasure in supporting amendments 88, 89 and 90. I think that farmers—I am sure that the many farmers glued to the TV watching this debate will feel the same—are now back in the debate and back in the Bill as a result of these amendments. We have emphasised the environment today—quite rightly so, many would say. This is an agriculture Bill, and it is important that our farmers out there are respected and represented within the Bill.

I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Ipswich disagrees with the amendments. Our greatest environmentalists in this country are our farmers. The landscape that we enjoy was created by them over not just decades, but centuries. They know exactly where the water flows when there are floods, they know on which bank the soil is better for their grass, and we should be listening to them. These amendments put farmers back in the game.

[Sandy Martin]

The initial problem with the common agricultural policy was that it was producing unsaleable gluts of certain foods. We have moved from that to a common agricultural policy that has the opposite problem, whereby people are being paid simply for owning land. That, I assume, is the main motivating factor behind the Secretary of State’s desire to move towards a system based on public goods, which we support. We believe that helping farmers to produce food is a public good, but we are not here talking about that. The main thrust of the amendments is about paying landowners for owning land.

[Chris Davies]

There are many faults with the common agricultural policy. The hon. Gentleman seems to be well versed in the written word, but we on the Government side of the Committee understand how it is implemented. There are many farmers on these Benches who completely understand how the agricultural world works. There are many issues with the CAP. These amendments do not state that we should have direct payments to farmers. They are probing amendments that clearly state that farmers should be part of the package and part of the discussion as we go forward, and I am happy to support them.

I class the hon. Member for Ceredigion as an hon. Friend, even though he is on the other side of the Committee, and he and I agree on many things. My constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire shares a boundary with Ceredigion, and our farmers cross that boundary regularly. We have similar faiths, meanings and needs—certainly for our agricultural and rural communities.

On schedule 3, we agree on most things, but it is important, if not vital, that the framework enables the devolved nations to work exceptionally closely together. I fear that it will have to be led by one particular region, with everybody coming to a consensus rather than a clear agreement, and I would like to see it led by Westminster. I share a border not only with the hon. Gentleman in Wales, but with England, and it is clear that we need a common framework for cross-border farming, whether it relates to Wales and England, or to England and Scotland, so that everybody works together in the same direction. We have one market and one new agricultural policy, so it is vital that the four devolved nations work together closely and in the same way for the benefit of agriculture throughout the United Kingdom.

[Ben Lake]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is my constituency neighbour, for giving way. I wholeheartedly agree that we must ensure that the internal UK market functions effectively, particularly for our farmers and for agricultural produce. One of the reasons why we need this discussion now is because the overarching framework of the EU CAP will no longer exist. I wholeheartedly agree that we need such co-operation, but we will have to agree to disagree about how we get to it.

[Chris Davies]

Bringing my thoughts to a conclusion, I reiterate that these are probing amendments, and I am sure the Minister will take them on board.

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Wilson. I am pleased that this is a probing amendment because it is a good example of why the schedules relating to the devolved Administrations do not protect or guarantee respect for the devolved settlements. If accepted, it would surely restrict who the Welsh Government can pay out to. That point was ably made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion. It is a proposed imposition on the devolved Administrations that would restrict how they can spend their money. It does not even come from the Government; it comes from a group of—without being rude about it—random MPs.

Agriculture Bill (Fifth sitting)

Chris Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Drew]

I thank my hon. Friend, because that is exactly the point we are making. This concerns not only obesity but its consequences, such as the rise of diabetes, which has doubled over the past 20 years. I am told—although I cannot source this—that the UK already has the most ultra-processed diet in Europe. I think that means we eat too much fast food, which the Bill must recognise is a huge public health issue.

Despite the title of the White Paper, “Health and Harmony: the future for food, farming and the environment in a Green Brexit”, health has been marginalised. That is disappointing. Health should be central to the whole debate on the food we produce, who it is produced for, and whether it is affordable.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I am interested in the direction of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. Does he agree that this is about production, and that everything is either safe or dangerous depending on moderation? Moderation is key here; not how we produce food, or why we produce it, but eating it in moderation.

[Dr Drew]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but it is also an issue of distribution and who is able to afford certain types of food. Clearly we are trying to move the debate towards ways that we can encourage people to eat better food and maybe less of it, which we will not manage unless we can talk about those issues in the Agriculture Bill Committee. It is not just about domestic production, but where other food comes from. We have a very successful export industry, but we import a huge amount of food from abroad that we could substitute through domestic production.

Health is paramount. I do not have to say anything other than mention the sugar tax, where we have intervened directly to decide what people can have as part of their diet. That is true of the tax on fizzy drinks that has been introduced. We must recognise that the Government are setting public health standards, and all that we are saying is that they should be included in the Bill. This is something that will come back again, because I am sure there will be people who will say—certainly on Report and at Third Reading—that this has been a lost opportunity if we do not include public health standards at this stage. It will certainly come back again in the Lords, because there are people who feel very strongly that the health aspect of agricultural production and distribution is really important.

[Chris Davies]

I am sorry to intervene yet again, but I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s line of direction. Could he give an example of food produced in this country that is not healthy?

[Dr Drew]

The interesting thing is that we have introduced a sugar tax. We produce sugar beet, and the tax has had an impact on that industry.

[Chris Davies]

So we should not produce sugar?

[Dr Drew]

We should produce sugar, but we should put a tax in place to determine the amount of sugar in products. I have a producer of fizzy drinks that has had to go through the whole process of taking the sugar out—it used to do that but then put the sugar back in; it no longer does that. I will not mention it by name, but it has been quite an impingement on the business. It did that because that was what it was told to do. We do not want to be overzealous in how we treat the production of food, but if we do not do something about it, the consequences will be dire. There are consequences at the moment, with so many people suffering from obesity.