Conversion Practices

Christian Wakeford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Government policy on conversion practices. 

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue—perhaps I will refer to you as Madam Chairman for simplicity.

Colleagues, let me tell the House about Sienna. Sienna, 31, is non-binary and was sent to conversion therapy by her father every summer between the ages of 12 and 15. Sienna has known that she is a lesbian since the age of 8, but her devout Catholic father planned for her to “pray the gay away” at camps. She recalls the worst part of the experience as being when the practitioner or administrator were abusive towards her when she was 14.

“They would often try to beat the ‘queer thoughts’ out of us. During my father’s last attempt at conversion therapy, I knew that these camps would never end if I didn’t pretend to be straight. So, I put on a facade of being ‘normal’ for him. It’s only then that the abuse ended.”

Siena did not tell anyone about what she had been through until her late 20s. Instead, she turned to alcohol, drugs and sex as coping mechanisms.

“I didn’t care about what I was using to cope because it felt like no one cared about what happened to me. Eventually, I did talk about it with close friends and then my mother, years after she got divorced from my father. It was so difficult to open up about.

I’ve always known that I was different. I’ve struggled with my identity for years, but deep down I know who I am. I want countries that are yet to ban conversion therapy to know how damaging it is. It’s a barbaric practice that does more harm than anything else. I’ve known people who killed themselves because they weren’t allowed to be their true selves. Conversion therapy doesn’t work and should never be thought of.”

Ben, 34, is a gay man who also endured conversion therapy in a religious setting, which they describe as “brainwashing”. They say their religion seemed very friendly on the surface. However, there were rules, and mixing outside the religion was frowned upon. Doing so could result in being publicly reprimanded or, more dangerously, disfellowshipped. That meant being shunned by all in the religion, blacklisted and losing all support from friends and family. Their religious parents forced them into studying the Bible daily, attending regular meetings and completing study activities.

[Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank my hon. Friend for making such an important point. Does he recognise that some of us who are religious and have religious belief know that this practice is abhorrent?

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I would go one step further and say that not only is it abhorrent; it is evil, and there is no place for it in any part of society.

As well as study activities, Ben also had to go door to door and preach on the streets every week.

“From a very young age, I knew I was gay. However, I had been taught that homosexuality was disgusting in the eyes of God. I felt so alone with the feelings I had.”

Ben was outed by another member of their faith group, who found out that they had a boyfriend. Ben was 21.

“He gave me the ultimatum that I had to tell my parents before he did. We were dealing with a family bereavement, so it wasn’t the right time. I was petrified of the repercussions of coming out, so I initially did it by text message. I hoped it would soften the reaction when I was face-to-face with my parents. However, I was accused of deceiving my parents, and their reaction was hateful. They told me I was ‘disgusting’ as they feared what other people would say. Our family environment became a warzone.”

Ben’s parents tried to tell them that they were going through a phase and had just not met the right girl yet. That went on for months, destroying Ben’s mental health and leaving them with no choice but to endure religious study activities.

“They wanted to ‘make me see sense’. Over a year I had to talk about my sexuality in detail, as I risked being made homeless. I was even made to change my dress sense to stop wearing bright colours and have my hair cut short to appear more ‘masculine’.”

Ben had to read the same scriptures over and over again, even being given “homework” of watching heterosexual pornography, which they did in an attempt to regain stability over their life. Eventually, Ben hit rock bottom and repeatedly ran away from home.

“I have struggled with my sexuality all my life, and what I’ve been through means I now battle constantly with shame, fear, trust issues, needing validation and waiting for people to abandon me.”

I think we will all agree that that is no way to live.

“Everyone deserves a safe space. If I had that, it could have been my chance to escape earlier, and I want that option for anyone in my situation.”

I could go on and share countless testimonies from many people, but I will share the words of just one more person. Penny, 50, from Portsmouth, said it best in 2018:

“Conversion therapy…is abuse of the worst kind and must be stamped out.”

That was not just any Penny; that was our current Leader of the House, who was the Minister for Women and Equalities at the time of those words. Her article in The Independent went on to say that her Department would now consider

“all legislative and non-legislative options”

to prohibit promoting, offering or conducting the therapy in the UK. So as glad as I am to have secured this incredibly important debate, there really should be no need for it. Half a decade has passed, and the Government have betrayed the LGBT community on this issue. There has been U-turn after U-turn because we have had Conservative Prime Ministers who have been too weak to take on the right wing of the party.

Banning all forms of so-called conversion therapy is the right and moral thing to do. A ban on conversion therapy is not woke, left wing or for snowflakes—or whatever other bizarre term certain people opposed to it want to offer up this week. It is not complicated, as some have made it out to be. There has been a failure of leadership. It is the right thing to do.

We sometimes go wrong in this House at times like this. This is not a debate—it should never be a debate. It is a conversation, at best. People are entitled to their own opinions; however, they are not entitled to their own facts. Underpinning this conversation is the fact that conversion cannot be done: we cannot change someone’s sexuality or gender identity, just as you cannot change mine, Madam Chairman. People can go on all the courses and say all the prayers they want, but it cannot be done. It is physically impossible; in fact, it is perverted to think that it is possible.

For someone in a position of power to push their ideas of what sexuality is means that they are imagining what people are doing behind closed doors. It seems to me that that person not only has a problem, but is the problem—it is not the young person who is gay, lesbian or trans. It is not a choice to be lesbian, bi, gay or trans. If it were, why would anyone actively choose to make their life harder? Members should ask themselves the question: “Would I choose to face front-page demonisation almost every single day? Would I have chosen, decades ago, to be jailed for who I fell in love with? Would I choose to be part of a group that saw record levels of hate crime this year?” No, they would not—no one would. Why? Because it is not a choice. We all know who we are in this room. So what gives us the right to tell other people that they are not who they know they are, and to leave the door open for already vulnerable young people to be preyed upon by religious zealots and hateful bigots?

Every child and young person deserves the opportunity to be loved, respected and nurtured—to be a positive force in this world. There is no need for a slanging match on this issue. Not everybody is like the social norms we hold up in society, and that is okay; it is what makes us different, what we should be embracing. We are talking about real people—normal young people—but if we continue on the current path, they will only grow into adults who are severely damaged or, in some cases, dead. They will be dead because the Government did not change something from wrong to right with a flick of a pen on a piece of legislation. We need a meaningful ban on an abhorrent and evil practice.

I came to this House to do what I thought was the right thing—to protect those who are the most vulnerable—and I would like to think that every single Member in this room made that same choice: not to take sides and to argue this to the death, but to find solutions to these problems. That is why we in Labour have said that we will ban all forms of conversion therapy—no excuses, no loopholes; no one can consent to abuse.

It was disappointing to hear some of the accusations from the Government that a ban would inevitably criminalise parents talking to their children. That is a ludicrous suggestion. Parents should always be able to speak to their children, just as I am very fortunate to be able to speak to my daughter. What we do not want, however, is parents sending their kids on a course to have the gay prayed out of them. The Government cannot afford to get this wrong; too many lives are literally at stake. My hopes and prayers are that we will—

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

The hon. Member is raising some very deep points that need to be in a conversation and considered. Bad parenting is exactly that: bad parenting. But does he believe that, when addressing issues to do with conversion therapy—and therefore issues that go to puberty blockers and issues like that, on the other side of the debate—there should be a policy that says to parents, “You’re not allowed to have a say in that matter for your children, your infant”? Secondly, would it be his party’s policy not only that parents would not have a say on puberty blockers, but that there should not be a lower age limit at which puberty blockers should not be administered and that they should be administered at any age that it is thought they are required?

[Christian Wakeford]

While I thank the hon. Member for the intervention, I do not think that it is relevant to the debate.

[Ian Paisley]

It’s very relevant.

[Christian Wakeford]

I disagree with the hon. Member. This is about conversion therapy, not about some practices or whether or not someone is trans. I do not think that is relevant.

My hopes and prayers are that we will listen and recognise that outlawing conversion therapy can never have any get-out clauses. Anything else is a ban in name only.

Normally at this point I would finish my speech and sit down; however I want to finish by offering a hand of friendship to the Minister, in good faith. I know that he cares deeply and passionately about this issue. I have heard him speaking in the Chamber and spoken to him outside, and I know how passionately he cares about all this. I really hope that we can work together on this, so let us please work together on a ban on all forms of conversion therapy. Let us not look back at this time as a missed opportunity; let us do the right thing and ban this evil practice.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

I will struggle to get what I want to say into five minutes, but I will certainly have a stab at it. I will focus principally on the assertion that there is a need for a ban on conversion therapy, including for the conversion of trans people, and I want to look at it through a slightly different lens.

I will start with a quote from Kierkegaard:

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

That is, in essence, the point I want to make. Legislation is supposed to fix a problem, not create a new one, and where evidence of conversion practices exist, they will not be mitigated but exacerbated by such proposals. The true scandal that needs to be addressed is the medical and surgical conversion of young lesbians and gay males by affirming and transing away the gay.

This proposal rests on a bed of dangerous lies, and it is but one part of an assault on the sex-based rights of women, lesbians, gay men and bisexual people. It is perpetrated by and done under the cover of once-important LGBT organisations such as Stonewall, which are erasing gay identities and are complicit in using the T to erase the LGB.

There are three legislative conceits that form part of this movement: gender self-ID, amendments to hate crime and public order legislation, and so-called conversion therapy bans. Each is the antithesis of what it purports to be. Self-ID is not about equality but about promoting supremacy, hate crime legislation is about silencing the raising of valid safeguarding concerns, and preventing conversion therapy is promoting the very thing it aims to stop. The planned Bill is today’s modern conversion therapy scandal, and it is affecting vulnerable children and young people who may be gender non-conforming or struggling with normal yet distressing pubertal body dysmorphia. It would embed the lie that those young people have been born in the wrong body, that the normal development of puberty should be arrested with chemicals—something that can never be restarted or repaired—and that emotional distress can be fixed with hormones and irreversible radical surgical intervention.

That is being facilitated in Scotland and elsewhere by Government non-statutory guidance, promoted by activist teachers and enabled by others who are bamboozled, threatened and afraid to speak out because of the attacks carried out by radicalised gender activists. Social transitioning is being arranged and encouraged in schools, with parents and carers being completely excluded from their own child’s care. The NSPCC recognises that as a form of grooming, stating:

“Groomers may introduce ‘secrets’ as a way to control or frighten the child.”

Teachers prepared to keep secrets with children, to the exclusion of their parents or child protection teams, is not only dangerous to the child but legally precarious for that teacher, and they should be open to prosecution. None of those teachers are employed as experts in psychological therapy, dysphoria or complex gender assessment. What they are doing is top-to-tail dangerous and wrong. In their zeal, and in secret from parents, they are effectively denying vulnerable children access to the very therapeutic support that they so desperately and obviously need, from real experts, not gender ideology radicals. That is chilling.

[Christian Wakeford]

This is not a debate about trans rights; it is about conversion therapy. I think we have all acknowledged that conversion therapy is abhorrent and evil. If it abhorrent and evil for gay and lesbian people, it is abhorrent and evil for trans people. How this conversation keeps descending to an anti-trans position is wrong. Will the hon. Gentleman think on that point: that conversion therapy is evil and just needs banning?

[Neale Hanvey]

I cannot really respond to the hon. Gentleman constructively because he is obviously not listening to the points I am making.

When I was a young lad—this might stretch Members’ imagination—I was a very pretty boy. In the 1970s, I had long hair and flared trousers, and I was often confused for a girl. The question I am struggling with is this. Is it possible that I would have been open to this form of conversion therapy, and would not have become the successful, happy, gay man that I am today? I can only conclude that, yes, that could easily have happened to me.

We had plenty of struggles growing up, such as section 28. My friend the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) and I attended the first ever Pride event in Edinburgh, Lark in the Park. We have faced these struggles and now we face them once again. I am absolutely exhausted from listening to people using my history and my struggle against me, when I am when I am attempting to stand up for the rights of young LGB people and protect their futures.

I appreciate that I need to draw to a close, so I will conclude with this. It is not a ban on conversion therapy that the Bill proposes; rather, it is rocket fuel for radicalised ideologues, to trans away the gay, depriving a generation of young LGB people from becoming the fabulous, vibrant and unique, gender non-conforming people they have every right to be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

I come to the debate as a feminist and a lesbian who has been out since 1987. Like my friend the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey), I have been active in the gay rights movement since the late ’80s, when I first campaigned against the introduction of section 28. Of course I oppose conversion therapy as it is conventionally understood, but I share the concerns of many feminists and lesbians that the inclusion of the concept of gender identity in any Bill risks threatening the professionals working with children and vulnerable people who are having issues with their gender if they seek to explore the reasons for that distress.

Over the past few years, there has been a worrying rise in the number of children, particularly girls, becoming convinced that they were born in the wrong body and seeking to take puberty-blocking drugs and sex hormones. Looking at the statistics, about 74% of teenagers referred to the gender identity development service at the Tavistock Centre are girls. Only 8.5% of those girls say that they are exclusively attracted to boys; almost 70% of them say that they are attracted only to other girls, and 20% are attracted to both sexes. In other words, the vast majority of teenage girls being referred to the GIDS clinic are lesbian or bisexual.

The treatment with puberty-blocking drugs and cross-sex hormones that I described is a controversial, experimental medical treatment for a complex problem. We have also seen an increase in the number of young people who have later regretted the irreversible damage done to their bodies and sought to de-transition. Young women, particularly those who may be internalising lesbophobia or misogyny, must be offered alternatives to such drastic medical pathways, and their teachers, parents and therapists should not be threatened with prison and fines for discussing the options with them.

In the years leading up to puberty, I, like many girls, was a tomboy and wanted to be a boy, but when I grew up, I realised I was a lesbian. It is really very common for young girls to want to be boys. Some of them grow up to be lesbians, some of them grow up to be trans, and some of them grow up to be straight, but they need time to grow up before they make irreversible decisions. What those campaigning for a ban often call “conversion therapy” is in fact legitimate protection of the time and space for a child to reconsider the conviction that they were born in the wrong body, so they can be stopped from going down a pathway of hormones and surgery, which sterilises them and can leave them with no adult sexual function.

[Christian Wakeford]

The hon. and learned Lady is making a powerful speech; I do not fully agree with it, but it is powerful none the less. It sounds very much as though she is insinuating that this is a trend or phase that young people and children will grow out of. Will she clarify that point?

[Joanna Cherry]

What I said, if the hon. Gentleman was listening, was that many young girls are confused, have gender dysphoria, want to be a boy and find the onset of puberty deeply alarming. There is a lot of internalised lesbophobia and internalised misogyny in our country at the moment, and I do not want the state to say that there must be an assumption that any girl who wants to be a boy should be told that she can become a boy. She needs to be allowed to explore whether that feeling comes from internalised lesbophobia or internalised misogyny. Sure, some of those girls may be trans, but the stats from the GIDS clinic show that most are lesbians. I do not want lesbians to be transed away. Staff at the GIDS clinic have expressed concern that that is what is happening.

As I said, many of the children who go down the medical pathway are same-sex attracted, and some of them are autistic. Of the first 70 adolescents referred to the Amsterdam clinic that pioneered puberty blockers for children, 62 were homosexual and only one was heterosexual. I am concerned that that is a form of modern conversion therapy. I want young women, particularly those who may be lesbians, to be able to discuss what is making them wish they had been born a boy, with professional support if necessary, before they embark on life-changing treatment with puberty blockers, which could leave them permanently infertile and undergoing surgery to remove their breasts. There are documented examples of girls going through the procedure, deeply regretting it and wanting to de-transition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart Andrew]

Thank you. That is very nice. Society has moved on, but some people are still subjected to pretty horrific experiences.

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank the Minister for giving way and for the careful thought he is putting into his responses, especially in sharing his experience. My sympathy goes out to him for having had to endure it.

If the Prime Minister supports a ban—I think we all support a ban, although what it might look like is open to debate—surely the earlier we start pre-legislative scrutiny, the sooner we can answer these questions. We do not necessarily need to wait for reports to be finished; they can be added into the scrutiny as and when they are complete. Surely we should have the conversations and scrutiny now and feed into the process later. Does the Minister agree?

[Stuart Andrew]

I hope it will not be too much longer before the hon. Gentleman enjoys the opportunity to put that suggestion forward. I hope the House will understand what I am trying to get at.

During my time as Minister for Equalities, to ensure that I fully understand all the viewpoints and concerns, departmental officials and I have engaged with a wide range of stakeholders on conversion practices, including with victims and survivors, LGBT rights groups, healthcare professionals, faith groups and groups advocating for sex-based rights. I am grateful to the stakeholders and the victims who have provided their testimonials and contributions through the Government’s public consultation. I am also grateful to everyone here for taking the time to consider and inform debate on how best to tackle this issue.

These sensitive issues must be discussed in a respectful and tolerant way, in line with our shared values. As we know, with such strength of feeling, the debate and rhetoric has the potential to become divisive and toxic. I am therefore encouraged by the many Members of the House and members of the public who get their points across while remaining open and respectful towards those holding differing views. We must remember that these discussions concern the lives of real people, not theoretical scenarios or sensationalist headlines, and that all individuals deserve to be spoken about and treated with dignity and compassion. In the same way, all victims of conversion practices deserve adequate, free and confidential support. That is why the Government continue to fund a support service open to all victims and those at risk of conversion practices, regardless of their background or circumstances. The support service is operated by Galop, the UK’s leading LGBT anti-violence charity. It combines decades of expertise with an approach of patience and empathy. The confidential service is open to anyone who is currently experiencing, has previously experienced or is at risk of experiencing conversion practices. The service helps people to not only to report their situation, but to access tailored support and guidance on relevant external assistance such as counselling or emergency housing. I encourage anyone affected by or at risk of conversion practices to contact the service as soon as possible so that they can get the help they need.

Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Bury South and all colleagues who have contributed to the debate. I personally understand the significance of a Bill; I will do everything I can to ensure that we can get to pre-legislative scrutiny as soon as possible, and I hope that we can continue to work together towards our shared vision of a fairer and more inclusive society.

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. Although I may not necessarily agree with everything that everyone has said, we can disagree respectfully. These conversations need to take place, and I urge the Minister to bring forward pre-legislative scrutiny sooner rather than later.

Many Members could not be here today, including the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison), and many other Members who have been mentioned, especially in the questions raised by the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald). Many people in this place are deeply passionate about this conversation, and I am sure that a majority in the House would want to see delivery. Again, I urge the Minister for a timely response, but we will do what we can to help that process along the way. I thank all Members for their contributions and you, Ms Fovargue, for your chairmanship. Hopefully we can start the conversation moving forward from this point.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered Government policy on conversion practices.