Oral Answers to Questions

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

The answer is that it will happen on Report. We have been very clear about this. The Committee stage is about listening and adapting to issues that have been raised; we have listened to my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire, and we will table amendments to clause 11.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

8. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government since the autumn Budget 2017 on plans for capital project funding in Scotland.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)]

Further to our discussions with the Scottish Government and the announcements made in the Budget, an additional £1.7 billion will be available to Scotland in capital resources. That is a 33% increase in real terms.

[Christine Jardine]

Does the Secretary of State agree that while the sum is much less than might have been hoped for, the Barnett consequentials for housing should be ring-fenced by the Scottish Government for that purpose alone, and not for another high-profile, faulty bridge?

[Mel Stride]

The hon. Lady is, I know, most vexed about the Queensferry crossing, and she is right to be so. It was widely trumpeted by the Scottish Government and the SNP as a great infrastructure success, yet I understand that it is currently partly closed, and is likely to be suffering from closures for many months to come, at great inconvenience to the hon. Lady’s constituents. [Interruption.] She should address her comments to the SNP and the Scottish Government. [Interruption.]

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Paul Masterton]

I am going to make some progress.

These rules are now uniform throughout the UK and many, but of course not all, should remain so after Brexit. Amendments 164 and 165 go too far and are dangerous to the Union. Frankly, I am startled that Scottish Labour—only one Scottish Labour MP is here—and Scottish Liberal Democrats are prepared to support these amendments, which could so fatally undermine the integrity of our Union. The Scottish Conservatives will not support them. However, I want to make it clear that my vote with the Government should not and must not be taken as an acceptance of clause 11 as it stands.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I am astonished. Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that continual discord, arguments about the constitution and a perceived threat to the powers of the Scottish Parliament are more of a threat to the United Kingdom than anything proposed in any amendment in Committee today?

[Paul Masterton]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but I do not agree. I think that amendments 164 and 165 are fundamentally dangerous to the Union, and it would be dangerous for the integrity of the Union to pull them into the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christine Jardine]

What action will the hon. Gentleman take if amendments 164 and 165 are not passed and his demands do not come to pass? Would it not be more sensible to just support the amendments?

[Paul Masterton]

No, because I do not believe that amendments 164 and 165 provide the position in which I think clause 11 could and should end up. I have been very clear—I said this on Second Reading and I have said it again tonight—that I will not support a Bill that undermines devolution and does not respect the integrity of the Union. I do not think I could have been any clearer to Ministers.

I consider my argument to be reasonable, pragmatic, achievable and, crucially, acceptable to both of Scotland’s Governments. There is much at stake. If the steps I have outlined are not completed, the consequences are quite simple: LCMs will not be granted by the devolved Administrations and the other place will not pass the Bill. I genuinely believe that that is not a situation in which any of us want to find ourselves, and I look forward to receiving the necessary assurances from the Minister in his closing remarks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christine Jardine]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that I and, I hope, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) are doing what we believe is necessary to protect the devolution settlement? By doing so, we are doing much more to protect the United Kingdom than the Conservatives, who may actually be undermining it.

[John Lamont]

It is my colleagues on the Government Benches who have made the Scottish Parliament as powerful as it is today. The Scottish Secretary has given a guarantee that, after Brexit, the Scottish Parliament will have even more powers. The problem with the amendment that the hon. Lady intends to support is that it goes too far. It would harm the internal market of the United Kingdom and undermine Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. I do not believe that that was what the voters of Edinburgh West or of Edinburgh South voted for when they voted for their MPs, with their Unionist credentials, back in June.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Lamont]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Significant progress is being made between the two Governments, which was why I was so disappointed with the opening remarks of the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. There is not a million miles between the two Governments.

[Christine Jardine]

But does the hon. Gentleman accept that this is not just about how well Scotland’s two Governments are talking to each other? It is also about Wales and Northern Ireland—it is about each devolution settlement. We should not expect the situations in Wales and Northern Ireland to be dependent on the outcome of talks between Scotland’s two Governments.

[John Lamont]

I accept that the UK Government are holding discussions with the other parts of the United Kingdom, but I am here to represent a Scottish constituency and my Scottish constituents. I would not be doing my job properly if I did not focus on Scotland and the challenges that Brexit will present there.

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[Mr Jack]

I am going to make some progress. By the time we reach Report, I hope we will have a better idea about what common frameworks are needed and how Scotland’s two Governments, in Westminster and Holyrood, will work together to implement them. That is the clarity that Scottish businesses want and need.

Almost two-thirds of Scotland’s exports go to the rest of the United Kingdom. I represent Dumfries and Galloway, which is but a few miles from both England and Northern Ireland, so this matter is particularly important to my constituents. If the internal market of the United Kingdom is harmed, Dumfries and Galloway will be among the worst hit areas. That is why I believe the amendments to be pointless at best, and harmful at worst. The forthcoming round of post-Brexit devolution must be conducted in a clear, measured way, preserving the internal market of the United Kingdom.

[Christine Jardine]

I want to speak specifically to amendments 132, 133 and 134. Like many others before us today, they are designed to protect the integrity and powers of the devolved Administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland by removing the proposed bar on legislating inconsistently with the EU in each case. I have been disappointed that in this debate we have not been able to reach the consensus that members of the Scottish Affairs Committee and the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) mentioned on the frameworks. There has been no suggestion, as far as I have heard, that we do not all agree on the need for a framework—it is the devolution of the powers that we are concerned about. This Bill appears to facilitate a power grab by this Government that, in its own way, undermines the devolution settlement and the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

It may have amused SNP Members that, while in the past I have appeared to be critical of their Government, I am agreeing with them on many things today. For example, I have criticised their Government’s handling of Police Scotland, pointed to GP shortages, and highlighted plummeting standards in Scottish education. However, those are criticisms of an Administration and their policies. They have never been criticisms of the Scottish Parliament, of the exercise of its devolved powers, or of any other Administration’s ability to exercise devolved powers. This now represents the settled will of the people of Scotland.

[Stephen Kerr]

The hon. Lady is a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, which took evidence from the Secretary of State for Scotland, who was adamant about the fact that there would be additional powers to the Scottish Parliament and about the fact that the existing powers would remain. In fact, this Bill cements those powers to the Scottish Parliament. What has she heard that makes her think anything to the contrary?

[Christine Jardine]

I will come on to that. As the hon. Gentleman himself has said, it is currently being negotiated between Scotland’s two Governments exactly what the framework and the powers would be, and until we have that assurance we cannot be absolutely sure.

Today I find myself in the strange position where I feel as though I have been transported back 25 or 30 years, to a time when the Opposition parties are all in favour of devolution and campaigning for devolution, and the Conservatives are needing to be persuaded.

[Stephen Kerr]

No!

[Christine Jardine]

No, that is how it is. The Conservatives are needing to be persuaded, even though they themselves admit that they are unhappy with aspects of clause 11. They are looking to their own Whips rather than to what might be best for the devolution settlement in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

We should not forget that the leave campaign argued that Brexit would lift restrictions and lead to Scotland gaining major powers, yet today we find ourselves considering a Bill that aims to modify and place restrictions on both the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly in relation to EU law. Surely we cannot allow this erosion of our democratic processes. I appeal to Conservative Members, particularly those who have served at Holyrood, to support us in this. Their party may not have originally supported devolution, but they, of all people, must recognise its significance today.

As part of the EU withdrawal process, Scotland’s two Governments are currently discussing where the powers returned from the EU should be vested and how the new frameworks should operate. Just as the 111 powers relating to Scotland are being discussed, the Welsh Government have a list of 64 powers that they feel could be vulnerable under this agreement. Both Administrations are looking to this place for amendments to the Bill that will ensure that they continue to have approval over the aspects that affect them. Indeed, only last month, Scotland’s First Minister stated that the Bill as it stands is not one that her Government would recommend for approval.

This is the specific point where I would take issue with the Conservative allegation that it is Opposition Members who are undermining the Union. If we do not put forward a Bill that can get a legislative consent motion in the Scottish Parliament, we threaten the very fabric of the agreement and throw ourselves into a constitutional crisis. I do not want to be responsible for that. It will undermine the Union in the same way that the Conservative Government’s actions in taking us out of the European Union with a hard Brexit will cost Scotland perhaps £30 billion and put 80,000 jobs at risk. Those are the threats to the United Kingdom, not the debate we are having here today.

[Tom Brake]

Would my hon. Friend also like to consider the threat to the United Kingdom that is represented by the debacle that is happening with the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland in the context of ensuring the coherence of the United Kingdom? Surely the Government are failing on that front as well.

[Christine Jardine]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is yet another example of how this Government are undermining the United Kingdom at every turn.

For Opposition Members, the drive is to protect the devolution settlement and potentially the stability of the United Kingdom. There are a number of other amendments that are similar to ours which we are happy to support, and we will not press ours to the vote. Our overriding priority is to get this Bill in shape so that there is no danger that when it goes to the Scottish Parliament it does not get that consent and we face the crisis that Opposition Members have worked so hard to avoid for the past five years.

[Ross Thomson]

This has been a very interesting debate. It has been quite extraordinary to hear some of the rhetoric from Opposition Members about power grabs. I do not care where that phrase originated. Whether it was Gordon Brown, Kezia in the jungle, or Patrick Harvie, the fact is that it is simply not true.

It is amazing that Opposition Members have found this new belief in sovereignty. Let us go back to some basic facts. For the past 40 years, the UK has ceded its sovereignty to the EU and its institutions, with literally thousands of pieces of legislation being imposed on the UK and all its nations, and our Parliament having no ability to scrutinise them—

Proportional Representation

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Monday 30th October 2017 Westminster Hall

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Surely two out of the last three general elections in this country were followed by the words, “The leader of the Conservative party will seek to form a Government.” First past the post is no guarantor of a majority Government.

[Steve Double]

No one is pretending it is a guarantee, but it is far more likely to lead to a clear, decisive result and a stable Government than any other system. In the vast majority of elections it has delivered a decisive result.

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[Mr Jayawardena]

I would welcome the hon. Lady’s remarks if she had listened to what I just said: 14 million voters in the general election backed first past the post. Perhaps the desire to overrule people’s votes is why in other systems, such as the alternative vote, the person who actually won the election often ends up losing when second preferences are announced.

I was pleased when Lord Fowler was elected Lord Speaker at the first time of asking under the alternative vote—a system on which, as the hon. Lady mentions, there was a referendum—but that was in effect an election by first past the post, and often that is not the case. We have talked about history and there are many historical examples. Let me provide another. In the 1990 Irish presidential election, the Labour candidate lost the first round by 80,000-plus votes, but then managed to pull ahead in the second ballot. That is not an isolated case. In the 2013 elections for the Australian House of Representatives, preferential voting meant that 15 members were elected despite being placed second on first preferences.

It is also important to look at the domestic situation. In the police and crime commissioner elections in England, we have seen that those with less support still win. Lord Prescott, not someone I would usually champion, was a candidate in the 2012 elections for police and crime commissioner. He won the first round, but he was beaten in the second. It has been suggested that this is a partisan argument in support of the Conservative party and that is why we might be in favour of first past the post, but, although I was delighted that a Conservative candidate was elected, I must argue that that was a day on which John Prescott should have been elected, and a day when democracy was thwarted.

The only purpose of other systems is to give candidates who were not popular enough to win a second chance to steal votes from those who did not want them to win. In all, eight police and crime commissioners were elected without the popular support of the people in the first round in 2012, including in my county of Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. Only where two candidates stood, such as in Staffordshire and North Yorkshire, did voters have confidence that, through first past the post by default, the candidate who won would definitely hold the elected office.

At the 2012 Scottish local government elections—we heard about Scotland a moment ago—68 candidates were elected under their system, despite in three member wards not even being in the top three by first preference, or in the top four in four member wards, and therefore 68 candidates who won a place in the top three or four then lost. Across the country we should expect the best candidates, elected through the best system, to give us the best representatives, but alternative systems of voting across our country have meant that some areas have been stripped of their right to choose who is best. Worse, the wishes of local people are being ignored by voting systems that allow candidates who lose to in fact win public office.

[Christine Jardine]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jayawardena]

I will in a moment, but I am very conscious that many people want to speak and therefore I do not wish to take too many interventions.

That issue will become ever more prevalent as powers are devolved to local authorities and elected Mayors, so the public will grow even more dissatisfied with that political system and will not forgive those who had taken away their power to have the clear, decisive and transparent voting that they have today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jayawardena]

If the hon. Lady paid close attention, she would see that two candidates are put to Conservative party members in a first-past-the-post system.

Moving on, I would hope that the House agreed that it is the right of each free citizen to vote for the person with the best judgment to represent them. We might disagree on the system, but I would hope that we would all agree about that.

Under first past the post, voters know the candidate and that the candidate, once elected, will have to implement promises and face the test of the ballot box again in five years’ time. That brings me on to the constituency connection: the people of the country elect representatives and know who those representatives are up and down the land. The link that binds a Member of Parliament to his or her constituency is one of the most important in politics. Every person up and down the country knows that they have a single, consistent point of contact in this House, someone to champion the issues and challenges of their area. Unlike many things in our constitutional settlement, however, that link is not an accident; it is a product of our voting system. First past the post gives our constituents the certainty of knowing who their representative is.

Many in all parts of the House appreciate that first past the post has benefits, but that appreciation is not replicated throughout our country.

[Christine Jardine]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jayawardena]

I will let the hon. Lady intervene in a moment, but I first want to make a point about Scotland, which she may wish to reflect on too.

There are those who say that the effect of PR can be mitigated in terms of constituency connection through the additional member system used for the London Assembly, the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. But I would argue that that creates two classes of Member: a class of Members who are known by their constituents and a class of Members who have the same powers and the same right to vote in the Assembly or Parliament but without that connection or accountability to their constituents.

[Christine Jardine]

The hon. Gentleman is right that I was going to draw his attention to the d’Hondt system, which has already been mentioned. I think perhaps he misunderstands it, because additional Members also have a link through the region to their constituents. Constituents know who their regional members are and who they can go to, and they can be assured that, if they voted for a party that did not win in the first-past-the-post system, there is still an elected Member who represents their views and the views that they voted for. It is a much fairer system.

[Mr Jayawardena]

All I will say is that that makes my point exactly—that system is a two-tier system with two classes of politicians, which is not what we should want in our country. We should want each of us to be elected on the same basis and with each of us accountable to our constituents and able to be thrown out by them if they disagree with us. We sit in the mother of all Parliaments, the home of parliamentary democracy, which has been exported around the world. More people use first past the post than any other system. It is an extraordinary system that has been championed across the world.

Oral Answers to Questions

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not follow the Scottish Affairs Committee’s deliberations; he used to be a very prominent member of it. I made it very clear yesterday that there was a sharing of analysis, as is appropriate between Governments, but we will not be publishing anything that will be detrimental to our negotiations, and that is what the people of Scotland would want.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Given that, as we have heard, information has been shared with the Scottish Government, would it not be appropriate to make it public and perhaps to impress on the Scottish Government that they should also do that? The people of Scotland should see what the impact of Brexit is going to be in order to make a proper assessment of it.

[David Mundell]

We are regularly called on to respect the Scottish Government. I respect the Scottish Government and this Government respect the Scottish Government—that is why we are working with them on Brexit. But it would not be in the interests of Scotland or the United Kingdom to publish any information that would be detrimental to our negotiating position.