Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 3rd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I am proud to bring this Bill to the House today. It is good to see the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) here and I thank him for all his engagement with the Bill since he came into post; it has been a very good working relationship and I am grateful to him for all his efforts and support. I also want to take the opportunity to say how grateful I am to his predecessors, the hon. Members for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), for Loughborough (Jane Hunt) and for Watford (Dean Russell), all of whom have been incredibly helpful and provided important support in the Bill’s early stages. I also want to take the opportunity to pay tribute to the officials at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, who have done an excellent job, as have the Clerks in this House; their work has instrumental in ensuring that we got to this point today.

It is also good to see hon. Members from right across the House here this morning. I thank colleagues from across the House who have previously contributed and helped us to get to this point. I think we are all in agreement that despite everything that has happened in this place in the past 12 months, everyone has put their shoulder to the wheel and worked together to ensure that the Bill has made it to its Third Reading. This Bill has enjoyed strong cross-party support. I am determined to ensure that we maintain that good work today and the Bill is sent on its way safely to the other place, where the noble Baroness Bertin will take up the baton. She has been a strong tribune for women and I know that the Bill will be in very safe hands.

Today, we have a precious opportunity within our grasp to make a real difference to more than 50,000 pregnant women and new parents each year. Many of us here know all too well the trials and tribulations of becoming a new parent. Everything can be a worry: how quickly or slowly the newborn is hitting milestones—breastfeeding, rolling over, sitting and crawling. A never-ending list of questions is racing through one’s mind: “Why are they crying? Why are they not crying? Is that bottle that I have put through the steriliser four times clean?” A lot of these worries are about issues beyond our control, but today we have the chance to alleviate some of that anxiety by ensuring that one thing new parents are less worried about is whether they will have a job to return to after taking parental leave. We are all aware of the challenges facing families today amid a cost of living crisis: rocketing childcare costs; a scarcity of affordable housing; high inflation; and job insecurity.

[Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and I am delighted that his terrific Bill is already on its Third Reading. Does he accept that not only is there an important family side to this Bill, but, with the economy having its troubles, we are also seeking to encourage people to maintain their life in work with this Bill? So not only is it family-friendly, but it is going to give a spur to the economy.

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful for that intervention and I completely agree. My hon. Friend makes an important point. We have tried hard to craft this piece of legislation in a way that, as my hon. Friend says, is very much family friendly, but is also friendly to businesses and employers. We have huge productivity challenges in this country, and certainly the business owners who I talk to in Barnsley, in South Yorkshire and beyond believe in the importance of investing in their workforce. That is good for the employee, but it is also good for the employer.

We have worked hard to achieve the right balance. One of the ways in which we can demonstrate that balance is that we have support from those representing workers—the trade union movement—but also the support of the CBI. I am particularly proud of that. We have been able to find that sweet spot we always wanted: to be family friendly and support women in the workplace, but to do so in a way that is also helpful to businesses.

[Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. This is hugely important work, and I commend the work he has done and praise both the CBI and the Trades Union Congress for their support of this important Bill.

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is right to praise and highlight the contributions made by a range of different organisations. I am grateful to my own union, Unison, for its extraordinary support, but the CBI and the business community have also been helpful and supportive. As anyone who has embarked on a piece of legislation will know, it is necessary to consult widely, and I have had extremely useful and positive feedback from the business community as well.

From some interesting recent conversations, I know that the decision to start or grow a family has never felt more expensive for so many people, and many are now concluding that, financially, they are not in a position to start a family—at the moment, it is simply unaffordable for them. What new parents need as a minimum is job security, which this Bill seeks to provide by extending redundancy protections for both pregnant women and new parents. That means that a statutory duty will be placed on employers to prioritise soon-to-be parents and new parents in a redundancy situation by offering them—not inviting them to apply for—a suitable alternative vacancy if their job becomes at risk. As Members from both sides of the House agreed on Second Reading, that will make a big difference to tens of thousands of working families every year.

Shamefully, we do have an epidemic of discrimination against women at work. In 2016, a BEIS-commissioned Equality and Human Rights Commission survey found that three in four women experienced pregnancy and maternity discrimination. Some 54,000 women a year lose their job simply because they are pregnant—it is a scandal. We are six years on from those shocking findings, but as yet no action has been taken to tackle the industrial-scale discrimination that women face; for too long, we have collectively failed to address that issue. I am determined to try to break the cycle of intolerance, inequity and inaction, because pregnant women do not just deserve to feel safe in their roles, but have a right to be safe.

With a cost of living crisis meaning that millions are falling into poverty, we cannot wait any longer to act. Discrimination was rife pre-pandemic, but mothers are one and a half times more likely than fathers to have lost their job since lockdowns began. Charities such as Pregnant Then Screwed do incredible work to support women facing maternity discrimination, and the personal stories of the pain and hardship women face, particularly during lockdown, are deeply troubling to hear.

On Second Reading, I told one story that was so deeply unjust, it still sticks in my mind: the story of Natasha. Natasha lost her job at the height of the pandemic. She was pregnant; she was the only employee to be dismissed from her team. Amid the chaos and disruption of 2020, with a baby on the way, Natasha was unemployed without the means to pay her bills. Then, as if things could not get any worse, a few weeks later, disaster struck: a miscarriage. In the middle of one of the worst public health outbreaks we have seen, Natasha had lost her baby and lost her job.

It is hard to comprehend the heartbreak and injustice that Natasha had to endure. The sad fact is that this legislation comes too late for women such as Natasha, but if we can get this right today, it will mark a positive step towards affording pregnant women more protection in their workplace and giving working parents the increased security of returning to their job after taking parental leave. Although the Bill will go some way to strengthening employment rights, on its own it is not a silver bullet. The issues with parental leave are vast. We cannot fix everything through a single piece of legislation. There is much more to be done, not least to bolster this new legislation and to support women taking their employer to court when a business flouts the rules.

Currently, the onus is on the woman, who, remember, is on maternity leave, to take the matter to an employment tribunal—a highly stressful and costly decision that must be made within three months. However, the 2016 findings showed that fewer than 1% of women—yes, 1%—lodged a complaint with an employment tribunal. Extending the time limit to bring forward a claim to six months was supported by every single stakeholder I engaged with bar none. These women deserve proper access to justice. One of the ways in which we can provide that is by extending the time limit. Bad employers must know that there will be consequences for their discriminatory treatment.

I am looking to the Minister now to give the evidence good consideration. When do his Government plan to implement the Law Commission’s April 2020 findings and extend the time limit for all employment tribunal claims to six months? That would complement the Bill that we are introducing today.

I also wish to raise once more the issue that relates to the six-week qualifying period—this will come as no surprise to the Minister. Although these measures will not be in the Bill, they are none the less still important. Currently, there is a proposal to include within the regulations a qualifying period whereby a new parent must take six consecutive weeks of family leave to be entitled to the redundancy protections. I must again put on the record my concerns, which are echoed by stakeholders, that such a threshold could disproportionately impact a new mother who may be forced to curtail her maternity leave, for whatever reason, returning to work unprotected and vulnerable.

I know that the Pregnancy and Maternity Discrimination Advisory Board met last week to discuss the proposal. I understand that it was a constructive meeting and I am very pleased that there is an ongoing consultation on this before a final decision is taken. The Minister will be pleased to know that I do not need him to respond on that particular point today, but I would, in good faith, ask him again to give good consideration to the board’s recommendations, so that we are able to protect as many new mothers as possible with this legislation.

Madam Deputy Speaker, time is short. Colleagues will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to detain the House for much longer, as I am keen to make progress with this Bill. However, I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have supported it. On Second Reading, we heard moving and powerful testimonies not just from colleagues speaking on behalf of their own constituents, but from hon. Members who shared their own lived experiences, including the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows), and for that I am grateful. I also wish to put on record my gratitude to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Unison, the TUC, Unite the Union, the Royal College of Midwives, the Fawcett Society, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the CBI, Working Families and Mumsnet. I thank them all for their invaluable support to the process over the past year.

I also, again, want to thank the Minister and his team for their excellent work and the brilliant support. Similarly, the Clerks in the House have worked at their usual extremely high standard. I also thank the shadow Minister who has engaged patiently and closely and in the best traditions of the constructive support that we get from our own Front Bench, and I am very grateful to him. I thank also my own very small team, Alex Foy and Richard Mitchell, for their excellent work in getting us to this point.

We are here today to make a change for 54,000 women and new parents besides across Scotland, England and Wales. We are here to help protect people such as Natasha and the families who will benefit from the changes the Bill will bring. We have a rare and precious opportunity to make that happen. I very much hope that we do not miss that chance today and that the Bill goes forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Jarvis]

With the leave of the House, I will take the opportunity briefly to thank Members for their excellent contributions this morning. We have heard some really meaningful, moving and impactful contributions, and I am very grateful for all of them, from different parts of the country. If the House will indulge me for one moment, I will reflect with satisfaction on the contribution that has been made this morning by Members from Yorkshire. A private Member’s Bill that has been brought forward by a south Yorkshire MP has been supported by a Minister representing a great seat in north Yorkshire and a shadow Minister from west Yorkshire—and not for one moment would I have forgotten that in the Chair we also have an outstanding Yorkshire MP. I am very proud of the contribution we have collectively made. It is amazing what we can achieve in Yorkshire when we work together.

As has been said, this has been an extraordinary team effort. In addition to some brilliant contributions by Members from across the House, a range of organisations have done a huge amount of work in, and made a huge contribution to, getting us to this point. So I wish briefly to acknowledge the support and the hard work that has been done by Unison, the EHRC, the TUC, Unite the union, the Royal College of Midwives, the Fawcett Society, Pregnant Then Screwed, The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the CBI, Maternity Action, Working Families and Mumsnet. I also want to echo the comments made by the Minister about the excellent work done by his civil servants, who have provided an outstanding contribution, as have the Clerks in this House. I am very grateful for the contribution that Members have provided.

At the heart of this Bill are those 54,000 women laid off each year simply because they are pregnant. Today, working together, we have made huge progress towards protecting women and new parents who are returning to work from redundancy. I am grateful for everybody’s contributions and I commend this Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the following:

Clause 2 stand part.

Clause 3 stand part.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Hollobone, and to bring to Committee the Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill. It is great to see the Minister in his place and I warmly congratulate him on his appointment. I am very grateful for his support. I am also very grateful to all his predecessors. There have been a number: the hon. Member for Watford (Dean Russell), the hon. Member for Loughborough—she was very, very helpful and I am grateful to her, as I am to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), who is now an Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. All of them were very helpful and very supportive of the Bill in its early stages, so I thank them. I also want to take the opportunity again to thank officials in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy for their excellent work and support in ensuring that we got to this point. Thank you very much to them.

It is good to see so many Members here today. I am sure we can all agree that it is encouraging that we are back so soon after Second Reading. I thank everyone who contributed to that. It was a very positive and constructive Second Reading and I think it showed the House at its best.

Let me move to the matter in front of the Committee today. Finding out that you are pregnant, becoming a parent, having a baby or adopting a child is supposed to be one of the happiest times in someone’s life, but, for many new parents, the newborn baby bubble is burst by the news that they are being laid off. In 2016, an Equality and Human Rights Commission survey commissioned by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy found that three in four women—I emphasise: three in four women—experienced pregnancy and maternity discrimination. Some 54,000 women a year lose their job simply because they are pregnant. It is a scandal. We are six years on from those shocking findings, but action has not yet been taken to tackle the industrial-scale discrimination that women face. That is what we are here to do today.

As all right hon. and hon. Members know, people are facing a cost of living crisis, wages are shrinking and childcare costs are soaring. What new parents need is job security and, as Members know, this Bill seeks to provide that by extending redundancy protections in the Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999to the period of pregnancy. The protections will also apply to shared parental and adoption leave, and a period after a new parent returns to work. This means that a statutory duty will be placed on employers to prioritise pregnant women and new parents in a redundancy situation by offering them a suitable alternative vacancy if their job becomes at risk. As Members on both sides of the House agreed on Second Reading, that will make a big difference to thousands of working families; half a million women are pregnant every year.

I want to raise just one issue with the Minister, which relates to the six-week qualifying period and about which I wrote to two of his predecessors. Although these measures will not be in the Bill, they are important. Currently, there is within the regulations a qualifying period, whereby a new parent must take six consecutive weeks of family leave to be entitled to the redundancy protections. I know that the threshold is in place to try to ensure that the protections are proportionate and to avoid a scenario whereby a partner who takes one week of shared parental leave is not afforded the same protection as a woman who takes 12 months of maternity leave. However, I share the concerns that that could disproportionately impact a new mother who is forced to curtail her maternity leave for whatever reason, returning to work unprotected and vulnerable.

I have been assured that a consultation is being carried out with the Pregnancy and Maternity Discrimination Advisory Board, and I am pleased that the Government are consulting stakeholders before a final decision is taken. The Minister does not need to respond today, but I ask him to give good consideration to the board’s proposals. I am hopeful that when it reconvenes later in the autumn consensus will be reached, and we will be able to protect as many new mothers as possible with the legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

It is incredibly important to get this right, as we said. The key thing is to consult widely with stakeholders. That is what we are doing, and we have done so with the hon. Member for Barnsley Central, who is promoting the Bill. A final decision will be made as quickly as possible.

On employment tribunals, there are clearly problems across the system, primarily due to the pandemic. All these cases need to be accelerated. It is not acceptable that people are having to wait for justice. I absolutely understand the calls to improve the system. We are working hard to do that. The hon. Member for Bradford East made a point about a potential weakening or watering down of employment regulations. I do not see any appetite on this side of the political fence, or indeed his side, to do that. I think it is highly unlikely that that would be something that Government Members would support.

The Government continue to support the measures in the Bill, which would provide valuable support and protection for parents during some of the most challenging and exciting days of their lives. Supporting this Bill is in line with our ongoing commitment to support workers and build a high-skilled, high-productivity and high-wage economy. I was greatly heartened to hear many contributors on Second Reading making the economic case to keep new parents in the workplace. I look forward to continuing to work with the hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central to support the Bill during its passage through the House.

[Dan Jarvis]

Members of the Committee will be relieved to hear that I am going to be very brief. I am under strict orders from the right hon. and gallant Member for Beckenham not to stand between him and a bacon sandwich, so I will be very brief. I particularly enjoyed the Minister’s description of the Second Reading debate as a five-hour group hug. It feels as if we have had another group hug this morning, though fortunately not one that has gone on for five hours.

I would like to make one parochial point. From my personal point of view, it is great to see some co-operation between south-west and north Yorkshire. I will not test the Minister’s patience by seeking to expand the point about what we might be able to achieve if we worked closely together in Yorkshire, but I hope that The Yorkshire Post is listening. I will say no more than that.

I am incredibly grateful for the excellent contributions this morning and for all the support from hon. and right hon. Members throughout proceedings on the Bill. I also want to thank the various stakeholders, including the EHRC, the Trades Union Congress, the Royal College of Midwives, Unison, the Fawcett Society, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the CBI and Working Families. They have all been incredibly helpful and helped get us to this point, as have the officials in the Department and the Clerks of the House. Finally, I want to thank everybody for their attendance and support today. I hope we can continue to work together in the constructive spirit that has brought us to this point.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill to be reported, without amendment.

Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 21st October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I begin by acknowledging that the House was originally due consider the Bill on Friday 9 September. I was looking over my speech the day before when I learned, with the greatest sadness, that Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II had passed away. I am grateful that we can proceed with Second Reading today.

I welcome the new Minister to his post. I also thank the previous Ministers—the hon. Member for Loughborough (Jane Hunt), who is in her place, and the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully)—for their support for the Bill at an early stage. They were both incredibly helpful and supportive and I am grateful to them.

I pay tribute to the officials at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy for their excellent work in supporting the Bill. I also say a big “thank you” to the Clerks of the House, who have done excellent work, as they always do, to ensure that we can proceed with Second Reading today. I put on record my sincere gratitude to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the TUC, the Royal College of Midwives, my union Unison, Maternity Action, Pregnant Then Screwed, The Fawcett Society and the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, all of which have offered invaluable support to the process over the last few months.

There is no more important or gratifying experience than raising a family. Children provide hope for the future and bring joy to our lives, although I can say as a parent, as I am sure other hon. Members will, that on occasion that has been tested to the full in my household—but that is teenagers. Despite its importance, however, raising a family has never been more challenging. The scarcity of affordable housing, sky-high childcare costs and now soaring inflation make the decision to start or grow a family simply unaffordable for many. This Bill seeks to alleviate some of that hardship by increasing security in the workplace for pregnant women and new parents by extending redundancy protections. I am proud to be bringing forward the Bill in the House today.

The current safeguards afforded under the Equality Act 2010 and the Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999—the MAPLE regulations—are not being applied correctly, and are sometimes not being observed at all. As it stands under the law, a woman on maternity leave is entitled to be offered a suitable alternative vacancy if her role is at risk, but a lack of clarity coupled with poor compliance means that new mums are often first rather than last to be shown the door. The sheer scale of the problem makes the case for reform irrefutable.

Each year, there are somewhere in the region of half a million pregnant women in the workplace. A Human Rights Commission survey, commissioned by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and published in 2016, found that a majority—three in four—experience pregnancy and maternity discrimination, while some 54,000 women a year lose their job just for getting pregnant. A few months on from that survey, the Women and Equalities Committee, then chaired by the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller), advocated for a comprehensive ban on redundancies. In response to her inquiry’s report, the Government stated that the situation was “clearly unacceptable”.

Two years on, the Government launched a consultation, and in reply they pledged to extend existing protections to pregnancy and a period of six months following a return to work. The 2019 Queen’s Speech was set to deliver these commitments through an employment Bill, but that was not brought forward, and then the pandemic hit. As with everything, covid exposed and amplified every pre-existing inequality and prejudice, and expectant and new parents in the workplace were not an exception.

Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies found that mothers were more likely than fathers to have lost their job or to have quit during lockdown. The Office for National Statistics reported that parents were twice as likely to have been furloughed compared with workers without children. A TUC survey revealed a significant number of pregnant women and new mums had experienced unfair treatment or discrimination at work—findings backed up by two damning reports published by the Petitions Committee.

Behind those numbers are scores of soon-to-be mums and new parents fighting to keep their jobs, struggling to support a young family and now doing so against the backdrop of a cost of living crisis. This debate is therefore not over the level of injustice—we know what that is—but about how we can correct it.

Let me explain to the House what the Bill will do. Clause 1 provides a new power to enable provision to be made by regulations about protection from redundancy during and after pregnancy. Clause 2 amends existing powers to make regulations to enable protection from redundancy on return to work from maternity, adoption or shared parental leave.

[Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con)]

The hon. Member is making an excellent speech on his excellent Bill. Yes, this is about pregnant women, but it is also about family leave, which is superb news. Could he elaborate a little more on that, please?

[Dan Jarvis]

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for her question. As I said earlier, she was incredibly helpful at the early stages of the Bill, and she is absolutely right to make that point. The benefit of the Bill will be felt across hundreds of thousands of households and families right across the country. Although the focus of my remarks to date has been on the impact it will have on women who are pregnant and new mums, the reality is that the benefits of the Bill extend right across the family unit. We know the official numbers are that 54,000 women lose their jobs every single year just because they are pregnant. As we can all imagine, that has a devastating impact on them, but also of course on the wider family unit. The hon. Member raises a very important question, and I completely agree with what she said.

I know there are some right hon. and hon. Members here today, and certainly a number of people and campaigners watching the debate, who would like—and this policy was previously advocated by the right hon. Member for Basingstoke—an outright ban on redundancies, as we have seen implemented in Germany. Not everybody will necessarily be familiar with the German model, so let me briefly explain it.

There are five pillars of the Maternity Protection Act that underwrite the ban in Germany. First, protection from redundancy begins the moment the employer knows that the employee is pregnant. Secondly, if an employer makes a pregnant worker redundant not knowing they are pregnant but then this information is disclosed, they must be reinstated and the protections apply. Thirdly, the local health authority must review each request from an employer to make a pregnant worker or a new mother redundant. This usually takes about three weeks in practice, and while this review takes place the pregnant woman will remain in employment. Fourthly, an employer cannot dismiss a pregnant worker or a new mother without permission from the health authority. Lastly, protections for mothers on maternity and parental leave extend to four months after it has been taken. That also extends to women who, very sadly, have experienced a miscarriage.

Although it may not be wholly translatable to the British system, there is little doubt over confusion and compliance under those rules. The Government have decided that, for the moment, they do not want to apply similar regulations here.

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

I want to express enthusiastic support for the Bill. It will plug an important gap in protection. Looking back at the proposals from my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller), we want to avoid a situation where, if there was a complete ban on all redundancies under any circumstances, that could mean that employers were having to retain employees when there was no longer work for them to do. The Bill is a reasonable compromise, as it is perhaps more difficult to take forward the previous proposals of my right hon. Friend.

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. She makes a helpful contribution. As she and other right hon. and hon. Members will understand, including the right hon. Member for Basingstoke, there are different views about this matter. In the end we have arrived at a reasonable and sensible compromise. The debate on that particular issue will continue, and if the Bill is successful there will be a further opportunity to debate such matters in Committee.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman for giving way. I have never heard of the German proposals before, and I really like them. I think they are flipping good, if I can say that, and it makes sense that we go some of the way down that road.

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for his intervention. I had not expected us to get into a debate today about what is going on in Germany, but he raises a valuable point. It is always important to look at how things work in different countries. The German model has been looked at closely, and a number of campaign organisations are strongly supportive of it. I have had those conversations with Ministers and a range of organisations, and there is merit in the German model, which, for the record, is my preference. I understand, however, the concerns that have been raised, and I think the Bill has currently got to the right place. I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s support today.

We are now six years on from the shocking findings by the Equality and Human Rights Commission about the industrial scale discrimination that expectant and new mums face at work. This is a timely opportunity to make progress. I confess that I was taken aback by the level of discrimination faced by pregnant women in the workplace. Perhaps I had made an assumption that such practices had been consigned to history, but that is not the case, and as I said, 54,000 women are directly affected as a consequence, with the wider impact that will have on their families.

[Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con)]

This is an excellent debate, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for introducing the Bill. He suggested that more than 50,000 women in this country lose their jobs as a result of being pregnant, which has a terrific impact on family and social welfare. Are employers also missing a trick? They are losing their most valuable resource—those women—who can provide fantastic work in the workplace.

[Dan Jarvis]

The hon. Member makes an excellent point. He is absolutely right that some employers are missing a trick here. As I said, I did not expect to get into a debate about Germany, but he makes an interesting point. There are so many amazing examples of extraordinary women who can excel at what they do—of course there are—so it seems incredibly strange that employers would want to discriminate against women in such a way.

I am sure the hon. Member will agree that that says something about the nature of our society. All of us recognise the importance of children and families—they are the bedrock and foundation of our society—so it cannot be right that women are treated in such a way and on this scale. That must be consigned to the past. We must move forward, and the Bill provides a really good opportunity to do that. I would be the first to admit that the Bill is not a panacea, but it is a good step in the right direction and I am grateful for the support offered for it.

Having made some remarks about the example that I referenced and the enforcement mechanism used in Germany, I am sure the Minister agrees that there is merit in us continuing to work closely together through the Bill’s passage to look at how, on a cross-party basis, we can seek to address some of the current safeguards’ shortcomings, namely around the confusion and compliance that I referred to.

On the former, now is the time to end the inconsistency of when and how regulation 10 of the MAPLE regulations is applied. For instance, when a firm is reducing its number of roles, many employers see their obligations to women on maternity leave as a two-stage process, initially by forcing them to compete for their job against colleagues and only then seeking to find them suitable alternative vacancies if they are unsuccessful in retaining their role. That is deeply unfair. Women on maternity leave are at a massive disadvantage, as they might have been out of the workplace for months—obviously, they have been focused on caring for their newborn child. It is also highly irrational. If a new mum has been selected for redundancy, there is little or no chance of their being offered a suitable alternative vacancy, because they will have been filled. As it stands, many workers do not know their rights under the existing regulations, businesses apply them in different ways, and even case law is conflicting.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

I have been reflecting on what the hon. Member has been saying about his very good Bill, which may fill some of the gaps that we have been talking about. I also heard what he said about the evolution of society, and hopefully that—as well as his Bill—will go some way towards helping. My employer before I was elected introduced parental leave allowing both parents to take six months of paid leave. I accept that not every employer can do that, but when we get to the place where, regardless of a person’s gender and their parenting role, they are entitled to rights, employers may stop looking at women as the first place to go when making people redundant. It would no longer be an easy choice for them.

[Dan Jarvis]

The hon. Lady raises a really helpful point, following the one made by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson). The nature of the Bill, and what we seek to achieve through its passage, speaks to the decency that I think we all want to see in our society. In the Bill, we have something in front of the House that is good for pregnant mums, good for new mums and good for families. It is also good for business, as it is in businesses’ own interest to be responsible employers and to make the most of their employees.

I very much hope that the Bill will get support from across the House. I sense that it will, and I am encouraged by that. I have spent a lot of time thinking about what the critique of the Bill would be and whether any right hon. or hon. Members would have issues or problems with it. I have tried as much as I possibly can to get around as many hon. Members as possible and have those conversations, but nobody has been able to say that they think there is anything wrong with the Bill. The only debate is around the extent of its ambition and whether the protections could be greater and longer. That is potentially a point of debate, but I hope that we now have the basis of a Bill that all decent right hon. and hon. Members will be able to support—fingers crossed.

[Theresa Villiers]

An important potential positive consequence of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill and further protection for women in the workplace is helping us to tackle our productivity problem in this country. If we can monopolise the vast resource of women in the workplace, including pregnant women and new mums, it will make us a more competitive nation, help us to plug skills gaps and make us more productive, which ultimately will raise living standards.

[Dan Jarvis]

The right hon. Lady’s point is spot on and she has made it very eloquently. I can see there is consensus. She is right that for a very long time we have grappled with the productivity challenge, and we are still grappling with it. This is part of how we can seek to address the complicated and difficult productivity challenge that we all know we face as a country. I am grateful to her for that useful intervention.

It would be helpful at this point to inject some real-life experiences into the debate so that the House can better understand what this Bill, if successful, might mean for women in the workplace. I am in receipt of a number of real-life cases of women who have suffered injustice simply because they were pregnant. There are many, and I must say some of them are genuinely shocking.

Emily got in touch with me a few weeks ago. She was made redundant from her job more than halfway through her pregnancy and just days before she would have qualified for statutory maternity pay. She is now attempting to appeal the decision on the grounds of pregnancy discrimination and is feeling targeted not only for being pregnant, but for working part time. Her company told Emily it would be making several people redundant, but instead it laid only her off. It did not follow a fair process and she was not offered any alternative employment. Stories such as Emily’s form part of the wider issues surrounding the inconsistent implementation of regulation 10.

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I welcome this Bill. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is so important because many women are putting off having babies until later in life? When I had my first child at 35, the average age in the Chelsea and Westminster hospital was 39. That means women are further on in their careers, and a Bill of this type will support women who are further into their careers as well as those who may be at the beginning.

[Dan Jarvis]

That is an excellent point that has attracted support from right across the Chamber. The hon. Lady is absolutely right. We must make sure that women are making decisions about their professional careers without having to weigh up all sorts of factors of unfairness. There must be a level playing field and we must make sure that women are not disadvantaged in the workplace, so I completely agree with her and very much hope this Bill will go some way to achieving that ambition.

I was referring to Emily, whose story highlights the need for consistency and the devastating consequences of what can happen when regulation 10 is not applied correctly. Confusion should never be an excuse for discrimination in the workplace. I have been working closely with the TUC and Unison on the Bill, along with the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, which has been incredibly helpful. It has offered to inform all its 160,000 members of the changes that the Bill will introduce, if it is successful. Will the Minister say how, if the Bill is successful, he plans to communicate the changes to workers and how he will clarify to employers their what their legal obligations will be?

On compliance, some firms simply do not offer an alternative role by falsely claiming that one does not exist. Others engineer situations to force new mums out the door. When a business flouts the rules, the onus is on the woman—who, remember, is on maternity leave—to take the matter to an employment tribunal. That highly stressful and costly decision must be made within three months. However, the 2016 findings showed that less than 1% of women lodged a complaint with an employment tribunal.

When we look into that worryingly low statistic, it is painfully obvious why the figure is so small. The scale of the challenge that such women face is almost insurmountable. Sarah, for example, was made redundant by e-mail six months into her pregnancy. Not wanting to be saddled with a gruelling legal battle during the final months of her pregnancy, she decided against taking legal action at that point. After her baby was born, she sought legal advice, only to be told that she no longer had a case because she had not raised her unfair dismissal within the three-month window. She told me that she never realised how vulnerable pregnant women are until it happened to her.

There is also Natasha: after telling her employer that she was pregnant during the pandemic, she was made redundant while other members of her team stayed on. Shortly after, Natasha suffered the heartbreak of a miscarriage. She lost her baby and she lost her job. I know that many across the House have experienced the pain and trauma of a miscarriage and know only too well its profound and devastating impact.

[Lee Anderson]

Those are shocking stories; I cannot believe that is happening in this day and age. Does the hon. Member think that some women are perhaps living in fear when they fall pregnant, and that some ladies’ fear of losing their job may lead to them doing the unthinkable, which is to have an abortion?

[Dan Jarvis]

I think all of us can completely agree that that is not the kind of society in which we want to live. We should value people who do the right thing and step forward to enter the workplace. Collectively, we all have a responsibility to put in place legislation that will provide protections to ensure that people are not treated in that way.

To go back to the hon. Member’s previous point, there is a big responsibility on business. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of the business community are sensible, decent employers. They want to do the right thing. As he said, it is in their interest to do the right thing, value their staff and invest in their workforce—not least a cohort of the workforce that, in every respect, are effective and efficient, to go back to the point about productivity. We have an opportunity to take a step forward today. As I said, this is not a panacea. There is a debate about whether we should go further and be more ambitious, but this is a good step in the right direction and I very much hope that we take it.

[Bob Stewart]

I thank the hon. Gentleman—my friend—for giving way. It seems to me that in the Bill Committee, we could put in a clause that makes it incumbent on employers to give a sheet of paper to women who are packing up their job because they are pregnant stating what their rights are. That might already be in the Bill—I do not know—but it seems to make sense and that would make it clear to women leaving their jobs exactly what their rights are.

[Dan Jarvis]

That is an excellent suggestion. The right hon. Member mentioned the Bill Committee. If the Bill is successful in its passage today, we will look for Members to sit on the Committee. I have a form here that I can perhaps give to him—I would be incredibly grateful. He will remember the expression, “Never volunteer for anything,” even better than I do, but in good faith he may have just volunteered to serve on the Bill Committee. Fingers crossed and touch wood, if we get to that point I will be knocking on his door with the form.

I was making the point about employment tribunals and about Natasha. When she finally felt able to take her employer to a tribunal, she was told—[Interruption.] That is the office of the right hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) calling to make sure they have the date of the Bill Committee in his diary—[Laughter.] Natasha was told that it was too late and that she should have applied within the three-month window. Extending the time limit to bring forward a claim to six months was supported by every single stakeholder I engaged with. That is an important point.

[Nickie Aiken]

The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent point. What has shocked me in the work I have been doing on my own private Member’s Bill on employment rights for those undertaking fertility treatment is that it is not just small and medium businesses that can have questionable policies on pregnant women or women who are trying to get pregnant, but even the larger ones, including some of the biggest businesses in the country and even major banks. I have been appalled by some of the stories that I have heard from women who have had to take their employer to a tribunal. Does he agree that, through his Bill and my Bill—which will come to the Chamber soon—it is important to give women confidence that their job is secure when they are pregnant or trying to get pregnant?

[Dan Jarvis]

I agree with the hon. Lady’s excellent point, to the extent that I wonder whether she might also be available to sit on the Bill Committee. If we are successful today, I may be knocking on her door. There is an absolute responsibility on business to look at their practices and ensure that they are doing the right thing. My overwhelming experience of the business community is that that is what they want to do, but it is clearly not happening everywhere. For all businesses and companies, particularly the larger ones that she referenced, I hope that their minds will be focused on the issue as part of this process.

Legislation and direction from national Government is an important element, but some of it is cultural. It is about leadership in the business community and senior management looking at their own organisations and satisfying themselves that they are doing the right thing. As parliamentarians, we interact regularly with the business community, and I hope that we will have the conversations with senior business leaders in the weeks and months to come. I hope that those conversations will be well received by business. I am grateful for her intervention and hope to see her in Committee.

I was just making the point about the support that I have encountered for expanding the time limit. It is widely supported by stakeholders and that reform has also been advocated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Women and Equalities Committee, the Petitions Committee and the Law Commission. The Government have acknowledged the problem and I have had good conversations about it, but so far they have not made a commitment. I hope that will be a further point of debate, because advising women to make an out-of-time application will not cut it.

I asked the Ministry of Justice how many exceptions had been granted, and in a written answer it said that it did not have that information—I suspect it is very few. Indeed, I have had anecdotal accounts of law firms refusing to represent women if their claim has not been lodged within the current limit, as judges often do not use their discretion. Improving access to justice is an important part of this issue.

Bad employers must know that there will be consequences to their discriminatory treatment. I would be grateful if the Minister would look at when the Government are planning to implement the Law Commission’s April 2020 recommendations and extend the time limit for all employment tribunal claims to six months.

I said earlier that there is no more important job than raising a family. It seems only fair that no one should be penalised for doing so by losing their job. I also said that three in four pregnant women in the workplace experience pregnancy and maternity discrimination, and that 54,000 women a year lose their job just for getting pregnant. We have had a good debate about this. By any metric, ensuring that women are treated decently and fairly should be a foundation of a civilised society, rather than just an aspiration. If we are serious about tackling discrimination in the workplace, providing parity and equality and ensuring that employers fulfil their obligation, we need laws to support that ambition that are fit for the 21st century and the modern workplace. The Bill will not fix everything, but if it is passed, it will be an important step towards providing working families with more security and dignity in the workplace, which they both need and deserve.

Let me say, once again, how grateful I am to all those who have offered support and to all right hon. and hon. Members present. I very much hope that the Bill will have support from the Government and all parties, and I commend it to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Jarvis]

With the leave of the House, I will briefly respond to what has been an extremely useful and constructive debate, at the end of what, according to any metric, has been quite a long week in this place.

There have been some outstanding contributions from Members today. Everyone who spoke added real value to the debate, and I am incredibly grateful to all of them. I also thank the EHRC, the TUC, the Royal College of Midwives, Unison, the Fawcett Society and the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, not just for their invaluable support for the Bill but for the important work that they do. Let me, in particular, thank the Minister, who has been remarkably helpful, as was the previous Minister, as was the shadow Minister, and as have been the officials at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the Clerks, and my very small team in Parliament, Richard Mitchell and Alex Foy, for all the hard work that has gone into the Bill.

As I have said, this has been an extremely useful debate. A huge number of important points have been made—too many to mention. I think it has been acknowledged that the Bill is timely. We all know that our constituents are facing a cost of living crisis, so this is the right moment at which to introduce such legislation. We should of course recognise the pain and suffering of those who have had to endure the hardship of unfair dismissal.

There has been general agreement on the fact that raising a family is a difficult, though important, job, but it is made much more difficult when people have to face discrimination in the workplace. I pay tribute to all who have been fighting that discrimination, including the extraordinary women who are fighting for justice in the courts. I also pay tribute to organisations such as Pregnant Then Screwed and Maternity Action for their dedicated work to protect and enhance the rights of pregnant women.

Whatever happens today, it will still be too late for Emily, Natasha and Sarah, but, as the Minister rightly said a moment ago, their contribution to this process has been incredibly valuable. I hope that they, and all the other people who have been affected, will take some comfort from knowing that they have contributed to—hopefully—a change in the law that will help to give more than 50,000 women a year the security of returning to their job after taking maternity leave. I ask the House to support the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63).

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Congratulations, Mr Jarvis. It has been a privilege for me to chair this particular debate, which has shown the House working at its very best.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Greg Hands]

We are 14 minutes into Question Time; I do not think that is too bad for the first mention of hydrogen. I realise that on the periodic table, it is No. 1—right at the top left—but that does not mean that it always has to be the first thing mentioned at Question Time.

The amount of money and resources going into hydrogen remains extremely strong. It is a really important part of the net zero innovation portfolio. Just over the past few months, I have been to the Whitelee wind farm just south of Glasgow to see the new hydrogen production facility there. That facility is going to do exactly what the hon. Gentleman wants us to do: provide hydrogen for vehicles, particularly buses. The whole of the Glasgow bus fleet and, indeed, the whole of the Glasgow dustcart fleet will be fuelled by hydrogen from that wind farm.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

We need to increase investment in R&D; we also need to think carefully about where we spend it. In South Yorkshire we have some outstanding translational research institutions—the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre and the Advanced Wellbeing Research Centre—in two outstanding universities. I know that the Secretary of State is supportive, but will the Minister pledge to work carefully with the Mayor and partners in our region so that we can unlock the huge potential in South Yorkshire?

[Greg Hands]

The answer is yes. We always welcome Mayors with a constructive attitude to working with the Government. If I am not mistaken, I have a meeting with the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues next week. A delegation is coming to see me, led by—I think—the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield). It might be a different part of Sheffield; the Chair of the Select Committee on Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), is the Member I am thinking of.

Fairness at Work and Power in Communities

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

For the first time in four years, I will not be declaring an interest as the Mayor of South Yorkshire. I will, however, take this opportunity to congratulate my successor: I know that the new Labour Mayor, Oliver Coppard, will be a tireless champion for our region.

Working with a dedicated team to improve people’s lives was an immense honour and a great privilege, and I am proud to say that South Yorkshire is in a much better position now than it was when I was elected back in 2018. We created a renewal fund of half a billion pounds. We set up an ownership hub, the first of its kind anywhere, to support co-operatives and employee ownership. We invested heavily in cycling and walking as part of an integrated, accessible and sustainable transport plan. We gave young people affordable bus fares, and began the work of bringing our buses back under public control. We agreed a groundbreaking flood prevention strategy, and started work on a housing retrofit programme. But for all the good that we achieved, I also saw just how much potential was being wasted.

After a while, we learn to read the small print in all the promises. The flagship shared prosperity fund will eventually reach £1.5 billion a year, but not until 2024, which means that it will be worth significantly less over its lifetime than would otherwise have been the case. Meanwhile, the levelling-up fund, which replaces the local growth fund, will do so at a reduced level. The Government promised £3 billion for bus renewal, but delivered just a third of that. South Yorkshire got nothing at all—but then, so did the majority of places that applied. It is levelling up for the lucky few.

All this can be measured against a baseline of deep cuts in council coffers: that, right there, is the reality behind the rhetoric. As for devolving control, most cash still goes through inadequate, politicised, short-term, competitive pots. That makes strategic planning impossible, and wastes precious time and limited resources.

It is only fair to say that the levelling up White Paper did set out some welcome, albeit modest, aspirations. No one on the Labour Benches will oppose efforts to increase life expectancy or eradicate illiteracy. As it stands, however, those aspirations are just that—aspirations—and, with no details on how they will be funded, we will not arrive where the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities wants to go on the current trajectory. He is not present at the moment, but I can tell him that if he wants to be this generation’s Michael Heseltine, he needs to change course.

I accept that none of this is easy. We are dealing with entrenched socioeconomic problems, decades of chronic underfunding, and layer upon layer of patchwork approaches. It will take a lot more than a commitment to ensuring that everyone can benefit from al fresco dining—however laudable that may be—to transform our economy. Let me tell the House, in a constructive spirit, what I think needs to change.

The first item is funding. If the Secretary of State needs an example of where levelling up has succeeded, he should look to German reunification. It is estimated that €2 trillion was spent on the project between 1990 and 2014. Most East German federal states are still the largest recipients of investment from central Government. Despite huge progress, East Germany has still not fully closed the gap with the former West Germany, but its GDP per capita is now higher than Yorkshire’s.

Secondly, there is the issue of control. We need an increase in fiscal devolution and a major shift towards allocating central funds according to automatic, genuinely fair formulas. We must let go of the purse strings and trust local decision makers.

Thirdly, there is the question of powers: we need a step change in devolved powers, with skills, transport and policing among the priorities. Regional governments need to be in the driving seat of a local industrial strategy. That does not mean one size fits all. Greater power and funding must be integrated with wider reforms, both here at Westminster so that the centre also reflects the place of regions and nations, and locally to ensure that stronger local and regional government is held accountable. Finally, on democracy, we need basic safeguards for the continued solidarity and redistribution between the nations and regions that make us a United Kingdom and against a race to the bottom on standards or tax. If we can do all that, we will have built not an empty façade but a solid foundation for our country’s future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I recommit to our manifesto commitment to introduce carers’ leave. That will be introduced as soon as parliamentary time allows. We are looking forward to getting on with that as soon as possible.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

South Yorkshire is home to some extraordinary research and development assets, including the University of Sheffield Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre and the Advanced Wellbeing and Research Centre. It was great to meet the Minister recently to discuss the issue. Will he continue to work with me and others on unlocking the undoubtedly huge potential in South Yorkshire?

[George Freeman]

With absolute pleasure. The South Yorkshire cluster is becoming a world-class, globally recognised leader in advanced manufacturing and associated industries. I look forward to supporting that cluster.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[George Freeman]

I congratulate my hon. Friend, who has been a tireless advocate for the Lincoln cluster. He asked about funding. In the comprehensive spending review, we set out the biggest increase in investment in science and innovation for a generation. Specifically, 34 projects in the cluster are funded by UK Research and Innovation. I look forward to discussing this with my hon. Friend, who has made a powerful pitch for that centre to be recognised as a cluster, and I look forward to visiting it.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

The University of Sheffield’s new gene therapy innovation and manufacturing centre shows that South Yorkshire can lead the world when it comes to research, but nearly half of all R&D spending goes into the golden triangle. What is the Minister doing to ensure that the north gets its fair share?

[George Freeman]

That was a great question. The hon. Gentleman is right. In fact, there are several clusters in the Yorkshire area, and in a previous career I myself worked in the Sheffield university cluster, which is very powerful.

Our strategy is that if we wish to be both a global science superpower to attract investment internationally and an innovation nation, we will not achieve that by moving the golden triangle north. What we must do is increase spending in the north, which we are already doing, and grow the supply chains in, for instance, advanced manufacturing. We are not just an invention economy; we are also a manufacturing and innovation economy, and Yorkshire, and Sheffield specifically, have a big part to play in that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Tuesday 9th February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

My hon. Friend is right, and I fully appreciate how key the hospitality sector is to her constituency of Eastbourne, which I have visited many times, even before I was elected to this place. The Government have introduced pay as you go measures, as I am sure she is aware, which give borrowers flexibility when repaying their bounce-back loans. In terms of the other measures that she mentions, I am in constant dialogue with the Chancellor. We are looking at the economy and the situation as it evolves daily—minute by minute, almost—and we hope that we can provide the flexible support that we have in the last year.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]]

Here in South Yorkshire, we used the local growth fund to create 2,800 jobs and attract £92 million of investment from world-leading businesses such as Boeing and McLaren. Now that funding has ended, will the Secretary of State work with us on our plan to create 6,000 new jobs and attract £600 million of investment over the next two years? [R]

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I am absolutely open and prepared to work with the hon. Member. I have visited him in my capacity as Under-Secretary of State in the Department for Exiting the European Union. I think we also met when I was Minister of State. I am very happy to work with him and discuss his ideas about regeneration and growth.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Claire Perry]

My hon. Friend is a doughty campaigner for what could be a very valuable source of heat from flooded mine workings. It seems apposite to recognise the effort that went into digging them out, and it would be good to use them in our low-carbon future. As he knows, I continue to look at his ideas with great interest.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

Central to economic development in Yorkshire will be the design of the new UK shared prosperity fund. What work is the Secretary of State doing across Government to ensure that the fund works to the maximum benefit of the Yorkshire economy?

[Greg Clark]

We are having conversations across the UK, including with local leaders, of whom the hon. Gentleman is a distinguished example, and I look forward to continuing those discussions so that we can set out the prospectus.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Jarvis Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Richard Harrington]

I have regular discussions with the steel sector and hope in future to have news that will please my hon. Friend.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

It was good to see the Secretary of State in South Yorkshire, where we have a strong advanced manufacturing offer. Will he continue to work with us in future?

[Greg Clark]

I certainly will. It was a delight to be with the hon. Gentleman and others to celebrate the opening of Boeing’s first European manufacturing facility. It is in South Yorkshire because there is a thriving hub of advanced manufacturing there. The industrial strategy is all about reinforcing that.