Knife Crime

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Wednesday 15th October 2025 Westminster Hall

[Will Stone]

I thank my hon. Friend for sharing a personal part of his life. I absolutely agree that that measure will help. It is the first step, but we need to go further. As I have said, knife crime is devastating. Although I agree that the Government can always do more, I will praise their Crime and Policing Bill for providing new powers to seize and destroy weapons; introducing tougher sentences for online sales; getting zombie knives off our streets; and introducing new offences of possessing weapons with intent to use. Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Ashfield for bringing forward this debate.

[Dawn Butler (Brent East) (Lab)]

We all have stories. In my constituency, we used to have quite a number of knife crimes, but the early intervention and violent crime reduction unit that the Mayor has put in place has helped to reduce that and young people in pupil referral units are also mentored and looked after. Does my hon. Friend agree that we cannot just look at the end stage? As people did in Scotland, we have to look at a public health approach to how we combat knife crime in our country.

[Will Stone]

I absolutely agree. I know that my hon. Friend is an active supporter of trying to reduce knife crime and has done fantastic work in her constituency.

I am incredibly proud of what the Government are doing, but we need to do more. I want to give one more shout-out to Owen’s World for the fantastic work that it does and to Change Lives No to Knives. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response and hearing from everyone else in the Chamber.

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[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Reform)]

We had a little dispute earlier about the statistics on knife crime. The fact is that we clearly do see from the evidence that knife crime is a serious problem, and it is rising in pockets. We have a clear problem in London. The stats are disputed, but the fact is that any knife crime is unacceptable, and the crimes that lead to death are utter tragedies.

[Dawn Butler]

The Metropolitan police briefing for October 2025 said there were 1,154 fewer knife crime offences in the 12 months to August 2025—a 7% drop. Is the hon. Member disputing the Met police stats?

[Danny Kruger]

I am sorry, but I do not think we should spend the whole time disputing the statistics. I can cite statistics suggesting there has been a 60% increase in knife crime in the last year. Let us not trade stats, but by all means let us take this offline, if the hon. Lady would like to trade citations. The fact is that significant studies demonstrate there is a real problem—an increasing problem—with knife crime in some areas. As I said, any knife crime is unacceptable, and the tragedies that lead to death are to be enormously regretted.

For the last 20 years, I have run a charity working with people in prisons and with ex-offenders—many of them involved in knife crime and violence—to try to reduce reoffending in London. I know from first-hand experience, and indeed from encounters I have had this week, how much our justice system is disrespected in our communities. So I absolutely agree with the central point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson): we need to increase the deterrent effect of the justice system, and that means having clearer and sterner punishments for the crime of carrying weapons. We need swifter justice, to ensure that the time between the committal of an offence and punishment is as short as possible. We also need—this is the work I do—to focus on rehabilitation and reducing reoffending, because the cycle of crime is the cause, the real heart, of these terrible statistics. It is not the number of first-time offenders, which is always terrible; it is the number of people who stay in a life of crime.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield for referencing the families of the victims. Ultimately, those are the people we should bear in mind when we consider these tragedies. But I also pay tribute to him for mentioning the families of the attackers, whose lives are also ruined when their son—it is usually the son—goes to jail for many years as a consequence of knife crime. As my hon. Friend said, they suffer shame and trauma.

I want to mention family—this is really my only real contribution to the debate—because I do not think we have heard the word “family” mentioned yet, and it is rare that we do. All my experience of working with offenders is that in almost every case—it is almost absurd how standard it is—the father is absent from the young man’s life; it is not always the case, and of course there are exceptions. I therefore pay tribute to the amazing women who try to bring these boys up in very tough circumstances and who overwhelmingly do their best to ensure that their boys stay on the straight and narrow. But in the absence of a father, how are those boys to understand what it is to be a man, to respect authority, to respect women and to collaborate constructively with their peers? Those lessons are so much harder to learn for boys growing up without a positive male role model in their lives.

I want to make a simple point in response to a remark the hon. Member for Brent East (Dawn Butler) made earlier about the public health approach to crime. I respect that concept; if we are talking about knife crime as an epidemic comparable to a contagious disease, that is a very apt analogy. I also respect the principle that we should have a whole-community approach to knife crime. My concern is that the concept of a public health approach is really code for a statutory response that says that the reason we have knife crime is that the wider community—which really means what the Government are doing—is inadequate and needs to step forward in some way. As I said, a lot of my life has been committed to the principle that community needs to step forward.

However, the role of the state is fundamentally to enforce justice; the job of the Government is to ensure that people are safe in their streets and that the law is respected. The real source of the knife crime epidemic, and the resolution to it, does not lie with the state, nor with the nebulous community; it lies with the individual themselves, who needs to grow up learning and knowing what it is to do right and wrong, and it lies with the family. If Government can do anything apart from enforce justice—which of course is their primary function —they should be instilling the principles of right and wrong in our young people through the education system. More importantly than anything else, they should be supporting stable families, because that is the context in which young boys will grow up much less likely to go off the rails.

[Dawn Butler]

The hon. Gentleman is making some extremely valuable points. The public health approach is not something I have invented; when there was a knife crime epidemic in Scotland and they needed a way to curb it, they adopted a public health approach—and it worked. I am talking about doing things that work. The first law of a Government is to protect all their citizens. Families also include blended families, so there are many different family structures.

There is some discrepancy in what the hon. Gentleman is saying. He has to recognise that a public health approach works; it worked in Scotland, and it is working in London—the police and the mayor say so. The hon. Gentleman mentioned male role models, and the mayor’s mentorship programme to mentor 100,000 people is helping. We have to look at this in the round if we are really going to curb knife crime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Pochin]

I will make a little progress, if that is all right.

My only observation about stop and search is that it has an effect, and I believe very strongly that stop and search needs to be brought back with absolutely zero tolerance. We need to support the police in putting aside any worry about being accused of being racist or of targeting particular groups in particular communities, because these policies work in taking knives off the street.

[Dawn Butler]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Sarah Pochin]

Let me make a little progress, sorry.

The other point about stop and search is that the police, and indeed politicians, should not congratulate themselves on how many knives are found through stop and search; we and the police should congratulate ourselves on how many knives are not found when stop and search is used to its maximum power, because that is the measure of success.

I now come on to the point about why so many young men carry knives, and it is generally young men who carry knives. Again, over the years of my experience, I have seen the fear that young men often have—sadly, sometimes when they are going to school. People have said to me that they felt threatened at school, so they took knives into school. Of course, this also affects older men out in the community. There is a difference between these two groups, and it is a problem for magistrates. There is a difference between a young man, a youth, saying that they were frightened to go into school without a knife, and an older man going to a pub with a knife in his pocket.

This is an interesting issue for magistrates, because magistrates need to have some insight into people’s lives. We have heard talk this morning about role models and that type of thing. It is a huge problem that we never see the parents when these young men are in court.

The other thing is the problem of drug gangs and county lines, which we deal with all the time as magistrates. That culture on our streets is feeding this knife crime, and it is not just in cities any more. It is all over the counties, with young people—and they are often very young—carrying knives because they are drug runners.

[Dawn Butler]

I, too, was a magistrate and heard lots of cases. The hon. Member might be coming to domestic violence, as there is a lot of knife crime in the home.

However, I do not quite get the hon. Lady’s thread with regard to the police searching people and not finding knives. In August 2024, the police had a 10% success rate with stop and search. In August 2025, there was a 25% success rate. The difference was that the later stop-and-search operation was data-led and intelligence-led. Do we want to go forwards or backwards? That is the question.

[Sarah Pochin]

My point is that if stop and search is working, we will eventually get to a point where knives are found less often. That is the measure of success.

We as politicians need to give our courts and our police the power to have a zero-tolerance approach to stop and search. The police need to have the confidence to carry out stop and search without fear of criticism. They need to be given funding to carry out thorough intelligence work on drug gangs, and they are doing an incredible job on the county lines operations that are now overtaking our society. However, they need to be given more funding for that work. The courts also need to be given the funding and resource to enact swift justice.

Clearly, we also need education in schools and the community initiatives we have talked about. All of this is important, all of this is a package, but it starts at the top. It starts with us.