Health and Social Care

Jeremy Hunt Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

In challenging circumstances, the NHS is performing extremely well. Front-line staff are making heroic efforts to control costs as they cope with the pressures of an ageing population and when 1 million more people are using A and E every year than at the time of the last election.

The Opposition run down NHS performance, but the reality is a service delivering more than it ever did on their watch: 400,000 more operations every year than under Labour; the number of people waiting more than a year for an operation down from over 18,000 in May 2010, to just 665 at the end of February; MRSA infections halved; mixed-sex accommodation nearly abolished; dementia diagnosis rates going up; and more than 28,000 people receiving life-saving drugs from the cancer drugs fund that Labour refused to set up. As we debate health, care and support today, I take the opportunity to commend and thank all the dedicated professionals who work extraordinary hours, day in, day out, for their part in making this happen.

If we are to prepare for the future, however, we need to do more. In our generation, the number of over-85s will double, the number of people with dementia will pass the 1 million mark, and 3 million people will have not one, not two, but three chronic conditions to cope with, on top of the other pressures of old age. We must be there for each and every one of them—the founding values of the NHS would accept nothing less—and to do so we must be able to answer three big questions: how can we be certain that people receive compassionate care even when they are not able to speak for themselves; how can we deliver joined-up care to people who use the NHS and social care system on a regular basis; and how can we ensure that sustainable funding is in place for care and support?

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be aware of widespread concern among the herbal medical community that there is no statutory regulation on that area in the Care Bill. Does he agree that if polymorbidity is to be dealt with we must have firm regulation, and that just licensing herbs, as the European Union wants, would destroy the industry?

[Mr Hunt]

My hon. Friend follows such matters extremely closely and I reassure him that the Government will update the House on that issue very soon.

The Care Bill will take a critical step forward in addressing each of the big questions that I raised, so let us consider how. First is compassionate care. Labour’s target culture led to warped priorities in our NHS and appalling human tragedy. No one disputes the value of targets, and the four-hour target played an important role in improving A and E departments. We do not, however, need targets at any cost, as we saw at Stoke Mandeville, Maidstone and Mid Staffs.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I agree with the Secretary of State about the value of the four-hour target. Is he disappointed, as I am, that that target has so often been missed in major A and E units over the past few months?

[Mr Hunt]

I am pleased that we hit our A and E target in the NHS last year, but disappointed that in Wales, which is controlled by the Labour party, the A and E target has been missed since 2009. Those on the Opposition Front Bench still refuse to condemn that.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress.

Even worse, when signs of how the targets policy was going wrong became clear, Labour’s response was to ignore or cover up the findings.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

Rubbish!

[Mr Hunt]

The right hon. Gentleman says “rubbish” from a sedentary position, but the Francis report—if he read it—mentioned 50 warning signs that were missed by his Government about Mid Staffs. He himself rejected 81 separate requests for a public inquiry into what happened. The Labour party created a lame duck Care Quality Commission, unable to speak out or force change, and an NHS where too often the system was more important than the individual.

[Andy Burnham]

At the outset, will the Secretary of State correct the record and remind the House that it was my decision, two months after being appointed Secretary of State in June 2009, to appoint Robert Francis to conduct an independent inquiry?

[Mr Hunt]

The right hon. Gentleman’s decision not to have a public inquiry that revealed extremely important information has meant that we are finally addressing the issue that his Government failed to address.

The Care Bill will include a vital element of our response to the Francis report, including regulatory clarity on who is responsible for identifying problems, driving up standards, and operating a single failure regime when urgent changes are not made.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that there have been teething problems with the 111 telephone service, which could be an essential tool to treat people in their own homes, certainly for palliative care. Will he provide stringent new guidelines to all providers to ensure that such teething problems are addressed and to enable the 111 service to operate as it should?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hunt]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Teething problems have led to unacceptable levels of service in some parts of the country, which we are in the process of sorting out. As we sort them out, we also need to look at the long-term causes of the problems of out-of-hours provision and the fact that the general practitioner contract of 2004 has led to a removal of GP responsibility for out-of-hours care, which means that there is much less public confidence than there needs to be in the whole picture. We need to sort that out, too.

[Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress, then take more interventions.

The Care Bill will allow for comprehensive Ofsted-style ratings for hospitals and care homes, so that no one can pull the wool over the public’s eyes as to how well or badly institutions are performing. The Bill will make it a criminal offence for any provider to supply or publish deliberately false or misleading information. We cannot legislate for compassion, but in a busy NHS, we can ensure that no institution is recognised as successful unless it places the needs of patients at the heart of what it does. The Care Bill will be a vital step forward in making that happen. That compassion should extend not just to patients, but to carers. The Bill will put carers’ rights on a par with the people for whom they care. They will have a right to a care assessment of their own and new rights to support from their local authority.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Is the Secretary of State as disturbed as I am that the Bill puts young carers backwards a step? Adult carers’ rights might be taking a step forward, but young carers’ rights are not. We must address that during the passage of the Bill.

[Mr Hunt]

We are not putting young carers backwards. We very much recognise their needs—and a children’s Bill will address their concerns in a way that I hope will put the hon. Lady’s mind at rest.

The second issue that we need to address for the NHS going forward is joined-up care. It is shocking that, in today’s NHS, out-of-hours GP services are unable to access people’s medical records; that paramedics and ambulances answer a 999 call without knowing the medical history of the person whom they are attending; and that A and Es are forced to treat patients with advanced dementia, who are often unable to speak, without knowing a thing about their medical history.

[Dame Joan Ruddock]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State—out-of-hours is relevant to my point. He will be familiar with Newark. He closed the A and E department and the rate of deaths among local residents went up from 3.5% to 4.9%. Why does he therefore persist in saying that, if he downgrades Lewisham A and E, 100 lives will be saved across the south-east of London?

[Mr Hunt]

Because that is what the independent medical advice I have received has told me. The right hon. Lady should be very careful about the Newark statistics, because the increase in mortality rates, which is worrying and should not happen, happened before the A and E was downgraded. It is very important that we do not get the figures wrong.

[Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I am going to make some progress.

Before I took the right hon. Lady’s intervention, I was talking about joined-up care. The truth is that Labour’s disastrous IT contract wasted billions and failed to deliver the single digital medical record that would transform the treatment received by so many vulnerable older people. Yes, it was a financial scandal, but it was also a care scandal. Last year, 42 people died because they received the wrong medicines. There were more than 20,000 medication errors that caused harm to patients, and 127,000 near misses. On top of that, structures such as payment by results were left unreformed for more than 13 years, making hospitals focus on the volume of treatment over and above the needs of individual patients. The Care Bill will help to address those issues by promoting integrated care. It creates a duty on local authorities and their partners to co-operate on the planning and delivery of care; it emphasises the importance of prevention and the reduction of people’s care needs; and, by making personal budgets the default and not the exception, it will significantly increase the control people feel over their care.

[Andy Burnham]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, but the trouble with him is that, often, there is a huge gap between the rhetoric he comes out with at the Dispatch Box and the reality on the ground. He says he is promoting integrated care, but what does he say about the pioneers of integrated care in Torbay, who are threatening to take legal action because of the requirement for compulsory competitive tendering of services? Under this Government, are not the beacons of integration being demolished by his free market?

[Mr Hunt]

It is the right hon. Gentleman who has a problem with the difference between rhetoric and reality. Let me tell him about the reality of what happened to integrated care under Labour. Between 2001—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman intervened, so perhaps he would like to hear the reply. We are talking about integrated care. On his watch, between 2001 and 2009—eight years during which Labour was in power—hospital admissions went up by 36%. In Sweden, where people started thinking about integrated care, such admissions went up by 1%. That is how badly Labour failed to do anything about integrated care when it had the chance. We are doing something about it. If the Opposition listen, I shall explain what.

[Jim Dowd]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I am going to make some progress.

The third question that the Care Bill addresses is about sustainable funding for care. We are all going to have to pay more for social care costs, either for ourselves or our families. Tragically, every year, up to 40,000 people have to sell the homes that they have worked so hard for all their lives to fund their care.

Our system does not just fail to help those who need it; it actively discourages people from saving to ensure that they have the funds. In 1997, Labour promised a royal commission on long-term care. The commission reported in 1999, and its recommendations were ignored. We then waited 10 whole years for a Green Paper, which arrived in 2009 and, again, was able to deliver nothing.

In stark contrast, in just three years, the coalition Government commissioned a report from Andrew Dilnot, have accepted it and are now legislating for it. The Care Bill will introduce a cap on the costs that people have to pay for care in their lifetimes. With a finite maximum cost, people will now be able to plan through their pension plan or an insurance policy. With a much higher asset threshold for state support, many more people will get help in paying for their care.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I respectfully suggest that the Secretary of State should look at the situation north of the border, where reform to change who pays has worsened the situation because no extra funding was put into care; all that happened was that we shuffled around who actually paid. Will he look carefully at that situation so that it is not repeated? How much extra funding is he going to put into the system?

[Mr Hunt]

I agree with the hon. Lady that the amount of financial support is important. I gently say to her that her party wants to cut the NHS budget, which would make the situation vastly worse.

The Bill is a vital element of our plans to improve the lives of the frail and elderly and of people with long-term conditions and disabilities, but it is only one element. Other areas that do not require legislation will come together in a plan for vulnerable older people. The plan will consider all aspects of how we look after older people most in need of support from the NHS and social care system. It will look at how our hospitals are set up to support frail and elderly patients, particularly those with dementia, in emergencies. Of course, we must continue to give people with serious needs immediate access to highly specialised skill, but in many cases we could offer better alternatives outside hospital. That would improve clinical outcomes and reduce pressure on A and E departments.

Secondly, the plan will look at primary care—in particular, the role of GPs in supporting vulnerable older people. Active case management of vulnerable people is making a huge difference in some parts of the country and we will look at whether the primary care sector as a whole has the incentives, investment and skills to deliver that. We will also consider the provision of out-of-hours services and how to restore public confidence in them following the disastrous changes to the GP contract in 2004.

Thirdly, the plan will look at the barriers and incentives that prevent joint commissioning and stop people from getting joined-up care. In particular, it will consider the operation of financial incentives in the system, which can act as an unnecessary and counter-productive barrier. The Minister responsible for care, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who is leading on integration, will announce further practical steps forward later this week.

I intend to announce the plan in the autumn, with implementation from April 2014. It will require a great deal of careful work, ask difficult questions and make tough decisions, but if it leads to more personal, more integrated and more compassionate care, it will stand alongside the Care Bill as an important step forward in reforming the care received by millions of people.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that that can work only if social services budgets are increased? Where will the resources come from to deal with the problems we face, and will there be an increase in social services budgets to pay for the services we need?

[Mr Hunt]

There is currently a difficult environment for public finance, for which the hon. Gentleman’s party bears considerable responsibility. The Labour party has given up on the budget; it says it wants to cut the NHS budget. We say that these changes are possible without cutting the NHS budget and in dealing with the inefficiencies caused when care is not joined up. Taken together, the measures represent more progress in three years than the Labour party made in 13 years. They represent our determination to prepare the country for the consequences of an ageing population.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that the cap on costs of care is a little way off the Dilnot proposals. How many weeks—surely his Department has made some calculations—would that involve for a typical older person before they reach the £72,000 cap?

[Mr Hunt]

The point of a cap is not that we expect everyone to have to pay £72,000 towards their care. First, through pension plans and insurance policies people can make provision so that they never have to pay that £72,000. Secondly, as part of the package, we are increasing the threshold, below which the Government help, to £118,000—much higher than it is currently—so that it will be available to help, I think, around 40,000 more people than are currently helped because of the level of the means-testing threshold.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

No, I am going to make some progress.

Finally, the values of the NHS—compassionate care and free at the point of need—are its greatest asset, but they open it up to risk of abuse from health tourists coming to this country to exploit that generosity.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I am going to make some progress.

Over the summer, we will consult on proposals to make the system fairer and ensure that people who should pay for NHS services do in fact do so. That will also help to ensure that our NHS remains sustainable at a time of tight public finance.

These proposals represent our commitment to ensuring a compassionate, fully integrated and sustainable system of health and social care built entirely around the needs of the patient. They represent a commitment to the NHS and social care system, which lies at the heart of our determination to make Britain the best country in the world to grow old in. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It is not altogether obvious whether the Secretary of State is giving way or has concluded his speech. [Interruption.] He has concluded his speech. It is usually helpful to have some indication of that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The cap is a mirage, and this will not feel like progress to people who are paying care charges. Indeed, it is a cruel con trick. The Government are loading extra charges on people while telling them that they might benefit from a cap in a number of years. This simply means that more people will be paying right up to the level of that £72,000 cap.

How can it be fair to pay for the cap by raiding council support? That does not make sense. Those of us who were involved in the cross-party talks—the failed cross-party talks, I might add—will remember that a question was put directly to Andrew Dilnot. He was asked whether, if there was not enough money around, it would be better to pay for a cap or to pay to support councils to ensure that the baseline was not cut further. His clear answer was that we had to do both. He said that it would not make sense to do one without the other, yet that is what this Government are doing—

[Mr Jeremy Hunt]

indicated dissent.

[Andy Burnham]

That is what this Government are doing. A cap is ineffective without long-term funding for the future of social care, and the failure to face up to the crisis in adult social care budgets that Conservative councillors are talking about will leave people with the impression that this Health Secretary is fiddling while Rome burns. The social care system in England is close to collapse, and the reality behind the Government spin is that, under this Government, people’s savings are being washed away more quickly than ever before.

I want to turn now to our accident and emergency services. The crisis in social care is the predominant driver of what we are now seeing in our accident and emergency departments. If people’s services are withdrawn, or if they cannot afford to pay for them, they are more likely to struggle and fall ill at home and to end up in hospital. That is bad for them, and it costs the NHS more. Also, NHS staff are finding that people who are ready to leave hospital cannot be discharged because the necessary support cannot be put in place. Beds are not being freed up on the wards, and A and E therefore cannot admit people to the wards because there is no space. A and E then becomes full, which results in ambulances queuing up outside because they cannot hand over patients. The system is now backing up right through A and E.

[Mr Hunt]

indicated assent.

[Andy Burnham]

The Secretary of State is nodding; he should do something about it. This is happening on his watch. Across the country, hospitals are operating at levels way beyond safe bed occupancy—[Interruption.] He nods, but I am saying, “Do something. Don’t just nod!” We need action from the Secretary of State.

Let me return to the quote that I mentioned earlier. People love to say that I would have cut the NHS. For the record, I have never said that I would cut the NHS. At the last election, I promised real-terms protection for the NHS. The Conservatives promised real-terms increases, which have never been delivered. Let me read that quote in full:

“It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending if the effect is that it is damaging, in a serious way, the ability of other services to cope…that are intimately linked to the NHS. The health service needs functioning day care, and housing”

and meals on wheels.

That warning has now come true.

[Mr Hunt]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I will give way to the Secretary of State, but I ask him to address this point. He has paid for the so-called ring fence on the NHS by ransacking local government funding, and that makes no sense whatever.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hunt]

If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the figures, he will see that real-terms spending on the NHS has gone up since Labour was in power. Given that he thinks it irresponsible to increase the NHS budget, does he agree that if he were to follow his own policy, he would now need to cut that budget from its current level? That is Labour policy.

[Andy Burnham]

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is listening. I said that if there were to be any increase, it should go into supporting social care. I now hear that Government Members are proposing emergency transfers from the NHS budget to social care because of the crisis that the Secretary of State has created.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

The former Secretary of State said that it was full steam ahead and that is what they would do. This Secretary of State comes in and says nothing about the issue. Then, a right-wing Australian lobbyist arrives, and all of a sudden no one mentions it at all. Has the Secretary of State ever met Lynton Crosby and discussed this issue with him? I think we have a right to know. [Interruption.] He nods; I should be interested to know the substance—[Interruption.] He has not met him to discuss the issue. He looks very uncomfortable all of a sudden.

[Mr Jeremy Hunt]

Just to put the right hon. Gentleman out of his misery, I have not discussed this matter on any occasion with Lynton Crosby.

[Andy Burnham]

We are going to have to get to the bottom of this—not just the Secretary of State, but all his Ministers and advisers and all the No. 10 advisers—because it looks to us as though this Government have raised the white flag on having any semblance of a progressive public health policy. I cannot believe that the Liberal Democrats put their name to such reactionary stuff. Where is minimum alcohol pricing? Where is public health in this Queen’s Speech? They are totally absent.