Draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Jim McMahon Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 General Committees

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I start by confirming that we do not intend to divide the Committee on this statutory instrument, but that is because we agree with the principle and not the way the Government in which have carried out the process, and I will go into some detail on that. Today’s debate has not covered the Government in glory, and there remain some significant questions for them to answer.

The Minister was very robust in his response, but I do not think that that energy was particularly matched with substance when he was answering Members’ questions, and he might reflect on that when he responds, because there are legitimate concerns. I have been to many of these Committees, and perhaps those on the Home Office Front Bench are a bit more energetic than those on the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Front Bench, but this has been one of the most engaged Committees I have been to, because of the process and the way it has been handled, and I will go into some details on that.

Labour is consistent in its support for directly elected Mayors for our combined authorities, and it has long supported aligning the powers where they are coterminous with those of the police and crime commissioner. We supported it for the Mayors of Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, and although the model is different in London, we see similar powers there. We have supported the same for York and North Yorkshire, and we supported the proposal for South Yorkshire too. So there has been consistent support for bringing those powers together over a number of SIs.

[Chris Philp]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has found the debate energising and engaging—we aim to keep him entertained. He mentioned South Yorkshire, and I should have said that it is the Government’s intention to bring forward a statutory instrument rather like this one in the very near future to do the same for South Yorkshire as we are doing for the west midlands. It is only right to put that on the record, because we are taking a consistent approach.

[Jim McMahon]

On the basis of today’s exchanges, I hope that lessons are learned from the consultation and public engagement in the west midlands and that those are applied to the South Yorkshire consultation before that SI comes forward. It is important that we bring the public with us. Let us not fool ourselves: not every member of the public talks about these issues over their cornflakes, but those who are interested will want to know that, where they have expressed concerns, those have been taken on board. I heard the exchange earlier about “copy-and-paste responses”. We should not discount those. If people have taken the time to submit a view, it cannot be discounted. I heard the Minister—perhaps I misheard him—saying, “Well, if you discount all the negative views, what was left was quite positive.” Well, of course, that would be the case in every consultation, but I am not sure that it is quite in the spirit of—

[Chris Philp]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jim McMahon]

I can do, but we might be here for some time.

[Chris Philp]

For the record, I did not quite say that. I did not talk about disregarding all the negative responses; I referred specifically to the copy-and-paste ones. However, I would like to make it clear for the record—

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[Jim McMahon]

I appreciate that clarification, but I think we all got the gist of where the mood was on that. I do think that this is a problem with how Governments, not just in Westminster but more generally, do politics in the UK. We start off with a predetermined view, or even a predetermined outcome, we go out to consultation, which is a paper exercise, and we do not adequately change our position when new evidence comes to the light. Politics needs to learn that listening and acting are not always the same as an embarrassing U-turn. I say that as a point of principle rather than about anything in particular, but I thought it was worth raising.

It is pretty clear that the Government have not brought on board widespread support on this issue in the way we have on other areas, and there are a number of questions that fall from that. Devolution is not just about doing things to people or imposing the will of central Government, based on what they already believed to be the outcome; it is about the Government working with local people to co-produce the outcome that is right for their area. So my questions for the Minister are as follows. What plans do the Government have to consult local authorities further, or do they conclude that the matter is now done and dusted? Before pressing ahead, will the Minister commit to a further formal consultation that commands the confidence of the west midlands region?

As the police and crime commissioner for the west midlands has pointed out, the Government have made a complete mess of the whole process, and I understand that an application for a judicial review has been submitted that will be considered next week. I know that that is a separate process, and I do not intend to go into the legalities, but the situation as it stands is remarkable, and not one I have faced in previous SIs on devolution matters.

Despite failing to secure the mandates needed in ’19 and ’21, the Conservatives decided to legislate to remove the requirement for democratic approval in 2023. On 6 December 2023, the Home Secretary approved the transfer without the lawfully required public consultation. The Home Secretary subsequently and retrospectively decided to launch a public consultation, which went against the outcome that the Government wanted, yet they decided to press ahead anyway. We are nine weeks before the mayoral and PCC elections and the administrators, the candidates and the parties still have no idea what is going to take place. They just feel very much as though it has been rushed to try to meet the deadline of the election for political purposes, rather than it genuinely being about due process and public engagement in a meaningful way. What legal advice have the Minister or his colleagues in the Home Office sought regarding the approach taken by the Government? Will they publish the legal advice in full? This whole discussion feels quite symbolic of the Government’s limited approach in general, tinkering with the structures and shifting significant powers between existing bodies, rather than away from Westminster or Whitehall down to communities at a closer level. It stands as a matter of fact that devolution under this Government is fragmented, piecemeal and has not gone far or fast enough. The powers and resources do not touch the sides of what is required for communities to have control over their own areas and futures.

Labour would push power out of Westminster with a take back control Act that gives communities a direct say in their future. It would start by giving all Mayors the powers and flexibility to turbocharge growth in their areas, including over planning and housing, transport, net zero and adult education and skills.

[Grahame Morris]

I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend’s flow, but will he give an opinion? There is a plethora of different arrangements; apart from my own region, I was just looking at Liverpool. There is Greater Manchester and Merseyside, which has a separate police and crime commissioner, as well as Steve Rotheram, the elected Mayor. There are issues with the consultation, and the members of the combined authority who were asked did not support merging the two. In the circumstances, would it not be sensible for the Committee to defer making a decision until after the judicial review has been considered on or after 7 January? Does my hon. Friend support that request for a deferral?

[Jim McMahon]

There are two separate points there. The first is on whether there ought to be uniformity or it should be accepted that there are different powers in different places. The Labour Front-Bench position is that where boundaries are coterminous in a place with a police and crime commissioner and a directly elected Mayor of a combined authority, both powers should be brought together with local support and consent. Where they are not coterminous, it would not be right for a Mayor in one area to take on political powers that transcend the boundaries of the combined authority in that respect. That is certainly the issue in Merseyside.

The other, separate issue, which I touched on, is a fair one: given the judicial review, should the Government press ahead or not? Certainly, the advice that we have taken is that they are two linked but separate processes. Parliament and the Government will carry on with their process, and the courts will make a judgment on the JR and its merits. It will or will not have an implication, but that is no reason not to progress at this point given the advice we have had.

I certainly take the power of the objection and the concern about the way in which things have been done, because it is a unique situation in which there are such legitimate concerns. There is a danger that the concerns raised are dismissed because the Government have the votes to get the change through regardless, which would be a mistake. If we do not bring people with us and convince them that it is the right thing for their area and can make a positive difference, and it is done despite, not with, the will of local people, that is not the road to empower people to make a change for their area.

[Michael Fabricant]

I am listening to the argument presented by the hon. Gentleman. He says there is a will against it locally and so on and so forth; how can he say that? We have the objection of some politicos who do not like the idea that perhaps they may lose their job. We have 7,000 people out of 3 million—I will repeat that: 7,000 people out of 3 million—who responded. That is hardly a majority at all saying that they do not agree with it. The majority of people just want us to get on with the job.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim McMahon]

With respect, as I touched on previously, although these are not the types of issues that dominate household conversations and inspire people—they have other things to get on with—I suggest that the hon. Gentleman looks at the responses to the consultation on the creation of the West Midlands Mayor in the first place, to which I say there would have been a comparable number. That is not a reason to do it or not to do it; my point is that when people make a representation, it should be taken in good faith. Whether they are for or against, if people make substantively fair points, they should be taken on board. The point about due process, local engagement and bringing people with us on that journey has been made, and it is a fair one. Without pre-empting or getting ahead of the judicial review, there is a reason why it was brought about: because there are concerns about that process.

Labour would offer all places the right power in the right places to negotiate with Government for powers that have been devolved elsewhere. We of course recognise that local government—the building blocks on which devolution is built—is in a fragile state, and its funding settlement has given rise to a number of concerns on that front, but we believe that devolution is the way forward and that it really does answer the question of how people can feel far more power and agency in the places where they live and that they care about.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

I rise to support the legislation because I firmly believe that it is consistent with the Government’s policy. The merger will improve standards and efficiency, and I believe it will also help to cut crime in the west midlands. Crucially, it will enable the Mayor—whoever that is after the May elections—to set the West Midlands police budget, to appoint chief constables and to issue a policing plan.

In constituencies like mine, Aldridge-Brownhills, things like this really do matter to our residents. The elected Mayor currently has devolved powers in areas such as transport, regeneration, housing and skills, which are all very much about people, place and communities, so it absolutely makes sense to combine the role with that of the PCC. At the end of the day, if it is good enough for London, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, why is it not good enough for the west midlands? Particularly given the size of the west midlands region, it just no longer works to have a separate PCC.

We often talk in this place about the really complex issues that need to be tackled, such as knife crime and violent crime, which need a much more joined-up approach. That is a further reason why combining the two roles would enable much more joined-up thinking at a regional level. I have to say that we currently have a PCC who is acting with very little regard to communities, certainly in areas such as mine, on the periphery of the west midlands—I sometimes wonder whether he actually knows where Aldridge-Brownhills is, but never mind—as demonstrated by his determination to push ahead with the closure of the Aldridge police station, putting politics before people and communities. I believe that combining the role of the Mayor and the PCC will result in a much more holistic, community-focused approach.

[Jim McMahon]

As a matter of principle, the police and crime commissioner is not here to defend himself against or rebut the argument that is being put forward against him. We can of course make the point on policy, and have a difference where differences exist, but let us not make it too personal by criticising an individual—from any party—who is not here to defend themselves.

[Wendy Morton]

With all due respect, I think that others in the room have made things personal, perhaps without mentioning a name. I am standing here to defend my constituency and to make sure that I get the best for Aldridge-Brownhills.

Fundamentally, I come back to my point that combining both roles under the leadership of one person—we do not know who that will be after the May elections, and I am not being presumptuous at all—will enable a greater, more joined-up approach that will benefit communities and our constituents, with a much greater focus on them. We need this to happen and to get on with it. Let us get this done. We have the opportunity to see that happen and to deliver for our constituents.