Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

Clearly, that decision will be made in the 2015 SDSR. My personal view is well known: I believe that having spent the best part of £3 billion on building the carrier, the £70 million-odd a year that will be required to operate it looks like good value for money.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his obvious commitment to shipbuilding. What assistance will there be to encourage the retention of shipbuilding skills through apprenticeships and will the opportunity for such apprenticeships be available to all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Mr Hammond]

I cannot answer for any wider initiatives that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills might be introducing. The deal to which I have alluded today is a city deal that specifically relates to Portsmouth and Southampton, and therefore by definition it will make funding available for job creation and regeneration only in those areas.

Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to be able to say a few words about this scheme. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) on bringing this matter to the House for consideration. I also congratulate him on the hard work that he has obviously done in relation to the scheme over many years when I was not in the House and on his chairmanship of the new scheme, as we move forward.

I became a Member of Parliament, like the hon. Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley), in May 2010, and one of the first things that I was introduced to was the armed forces parliamentary scheme. I remember that there was an event—in the Jubilee Room, I think—and I met Sir Neil, who informed me about the scheme. From the outset, I was keen to hear more, as in the past I had served with the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Territorial Army Royal Artillery for eleven and a half years as a part-time soldier. I really enjoyed my time in the Army. The scheme gave me the chance to see it from a different perspective—that of a Member of Parliament—and to understand what the soldiers wanted us to do for them. That was always important.

The armed forces parliamentary scheme gave me, along with other Members of Parliament, a chance to join after passing a strict medical, taking part in a physical exercise and having an interview with Sir Neil and his good lady. I was privileged to be able to participate in the scheme. Like other hon. Members, I place on the record my thanks to Sir Neil and Sheila for their courtesy and good manners, for the attention and support that they give everyone on the scheme and, in particular, for the support that they have given to me.

I was able to enrol in the scheme, which facilitated visits to Ministry of Defence locations to meet service personnel and to hear what soldiers wanted and what their views were. It is always good to talk to a soldier. The officers will always give us the picture as they see it—I do not say that as a criticism of course—but the soldiers will always tell us exactly what the position is. We are able to hear from the soldiers what their opinions are, and it is good to hear them, because then we have both sets of opinions and we can mould our thoughts about how to represent soldiers in Parliament on the information that we have.

I had an introduction to the defence academy at Shrivenham, where I was able to see the bigger picture. We had an opportunity to see where the focus of attention would be in the future. Is it oil? Is it water? What are the mineral prospects for the world? We looked at Asia, Africa, the middle east, Alaska, Antarctica—all the big issues. The hope was that we would then be better able to understand the role of the British forces and the pressures that they are under.

I had the chance to go to BATUK in Kenya—the British Army Training Unit Kenya—as well as going to Canada and Cyprus. That was good to do not because we were getting out of the country and going on a visit, but because it gave us an opportunity to see what was happening in Kenya and the new training camp that the British Army was creating and where the focus of attention was in east Africa. There was the chance to see—I had never seen this before—the tank formations and training in Canada and to see in Cyprus the decompression of our soldiers coming back from Afghanistan. All those things give us a bigger flavour of all aspects of life in the armed forces. I had a week with the 1st Mercian at Catterick, and as the hon. Member for Redditch said, we were at Sandhurst.

The interesting thing was that no matter where I went in the world, I always met someone from Northern Ireland who was either fighting a war or cleaning up afterwards. We have a tradition of being a soldiering nation. It was wonderful to meet people from Northern Ireland wherever I went. I met a guy in Kenya—just sitting and having a cup of coffee—who was from Newtownards. On the way to Afghanistan, I met a guy who came from Comber. All these experiences and all the people we met helped to shape our feelings about the armed forces. I then used the information that we had got to ask questions in Parliament.

I had the chance, with the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), to go to Afghanistan. He and I will never forget that. We were there for St Patrick’s day. It was the first dry St Patrick’s day that I had ever experienced in my life—in Afghanistan, there is no alcohol whatever. To see boys from the Irish Guards and Royal Irish Regiment consuming vast amounts of Coca-Cola and mineral water and not what they really wanted was quite an experience.

The visit gave us a chance to see what it was like to be in Afghanistan and how the soldiers were performing and to get feedback from them about things there. Whenever people are in Afghanistan, they are there for six to nine months. We can also ask them how it feels to be away from their families. Therefore, we got a bigger picture of the soldier’s life and the issues in relation to their families back home. We had a chance to visit the army and police training camp at Lashkar Gah, and we were able to ask questions in Westminster about when the police training college would be completed. It was to be funded with $6 million. Again, we were able to ask the Ministry of Defence that question because of our visit to Afghanistan. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire, who introduced the debate, made that point very clearly.

Was the operation just about defeating the Taliban? When I went to Afghanistan, my idea was—I say this quite honestly—“Kill all the Taliban. That’s what we have to do,” but then I realised that it was about more than that. It was not simply about killing the Taliban. It was about persuading them that there was no danger in the allies and what they were doing. It was about winning hearts and minds. My perspective changed on what we should be trying to do.

It was a privilege to meet soldiers, to hear their concerns at first hand and to act on them on returning to Parliament. It was a bonus to be able to see exactly what our troops are going through and to get their perspective on the strategic defence and security review that took place. It was a wonderful experience to hear what the officers and the soldiers—the rank and file—thought of the strategic defence and security review. We could then feed that into the process when we came back to Parliament. That was another opportunity.

The armed forces parliamentary scheme is a tremendous scheme. It is being overtaken now by the armed forces parliamentary trust. It has given me a much better understanding of the role of our service personnel on the battlefield and at home, as they train and prepare for their next tour of duty. It was an opportunity to meet some of the families and see the work that the welfare service does for them. We have SSAFA—the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association. It has people strategically placed all around the world. It does tremendous work. I know a wee bit about its work at home, but it was good to see its work on active duty, where our soldiers were training. It is interesting to see the strains on families, and some of the soldiers we met in Canada were able to tell us what they would like changed. Everything we did was an opportunity to learn something and reflect that back to Parliament—I felt that that was my role. It is clear that our troops do their best on the front line, and they must be assured that their country is doing the best job for their families at home.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend mentioned SSAFA personnel and other groups. Does he agree that the AFPS also offers hon. Members the opportunity to mix with and talk to many of those behind the scenes, about whom the general public never or very seldom hear and to come back to Parliament better informed about what they do?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that wise and truthful contribution. We met soldiers on many occasions, and I thanked every one I met for what they have done, because soldiers make a tremendous contribution to the whole nation and to MPs. My desire is that the scheme continues through the armed forces parliamentary trust, and the arguments for that have been well made. It is a wonderful chance to meet and greet, but more importantly to understand our troops and their struggles and to reflect on them, as we fight for them at parliamentary level.

The soldiers I met were always appreciative of us as MPs. It is not that we are better than anyone else, but we are Members of Parliament and they want to tell us what they are thinking and they want us to reflect it. They need someone to represent their views, which cannot always be understood merely by reading a report, and that is why, with the transformation of the armed forces parliamentary scheme to the armed forces parliamentary trust, I encourage others to support the scheme and see for themselves what happens outside the doors of this place.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

There are four colleagues standing and 28 minutes to go.

UK Submarine Supply Chain

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Rosindell, to see you in the Chair this afternoon. I am pleased to have secured this important debate on the supply chain for Britain’s submarines. It is particularly timely given the expected publication, perhaps within the next few days, of the Trident alternatives review—the taxpayer-funded vehicle that one half of the coalition Government set in motion to prove that they were right all along about their idea to scrap Trident in favour of some sort of mini-deterrent. How the Government respond to the review will have a direct bearing not only on thousands of jobs across the country but on Britain’s standing as a cutting-edge manufacturing nation.

The submarines that are built by the skilled workers in my constituency are truly extraordinary. The Astute-class boat currently under construction and the Vanguards, which carry Britain’s nuclear deterrent, are among the most technologically sophisticated vessels on the planet. It is no exaggeration to describe them as more complex than the space shuttle.

Barrow is rightly proud of the role that its boats play in ensuring Britain’s security. As an aside, may I say how much I am looking forward to welcoming the Minister to Barrow shipyard next week for the laying of the keel of the six Astute-class submarines? It would be a serious mistake to think that submarine building happens only in Barrow-in-Furness. In fact, this is an enterprise that brings together at least 1,200 firms from every corner and nation of the United Kingdom. The high-tech components and parts, the cutting-edge design skills and the essential services are ultimately brought together in Barrow for the Royal Navy.

It was great to welcome the representatives of some of those firms to Westminster last week when I hosted, along with BAE Systems and the Keep our Future Afloat campaign, a well-attended reception to mark the importance of the supply chain. We were grateful to the Minister for attending and speaking so warmly about the importance of those jobs. The workplaces represented included Rolls-Royce in Derby, which produces the nuclear reactors that power the submarines; Sheffield Forgemasters, which rolls and cuts the high-quality steel for the boats; Babcock, which has employees across the country including Clydeside, Chesterfield and Ludlow; Thales from Glasgow, which makes the periscopes and other communication systems; Truflo Marine, a valve maker from Birmingham; Ultra Electronics from west London; Meltog, a tube-making firm from Leeds and MacTaggart Scott, a naval component engineers from Midlothian.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this important matter to the Chamber. He is talking about the manufacturing skills across England, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom. Does he feel that the retention of manufacturing skills is vital for our future and that the Government need to give a commitment to retaining the number of submarines, so that we can have a continuity of skills and supply?

Reserve Forces

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I say two things to my hon. Friend. First, the overwhelming majority of respondents to the consultation supported the proposal to change the name of the Territorial Army, better to reflect the role that it will play in future. The second thing is that—he will just have to take my word for this—at senior level there has been a sea change in the attitude in the Army. The Army now understands that it has to grip this as its problem and deliver the solution. I accept that there is still more work to be done in the middle ranks of the Army officer corps, to persuade people to adopt the integrated model for the future. That is a work in progress.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and concur with the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) on the closure of the Armagh unit; I express my disappointment at that as well. However, the announcement that Kinnegar in Holywood will become a centre for reservists is good news, which I welcome. Civilian staff there have been uncertain about their position in recent months. Can the Secretary of State confirm that Kinnegar will not be subject to any run-down or loss of civilian personnel as it becomes a centre for reservists in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Hammond]

My understanding is that, at the moment, Kinnegar is mostly used as a storage facility and the number of civilians employed there is relatively small. However, I cannot guarantee—this is part of another statement, in a sense—that as that role decreases there will not be some changes in the civilian staffing level. However, if the hon. Gentleman would like me to write to him with further details of the overall position affecting Kinnegar, I will be happy to do so.

Armed Forces

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I rise to thank the shadow Minister and the Opposition for bringing this motion before the House for debate today. Every Member will be aware of my support for the armed forces. I have been a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Territorial Army in the past and I have had the opportunity to travel with other Members through the armed forces parliamentary scheme. That allowed me to see a glimpse of what our armed forces do. I have been on a Navy ship and been to Afghanistan, and I have had the privilege to watch the intensive and back-breaking training done by each man and woman who serve, whether it be at Catterick, Sandhurst, Canada, Kenya or Cyprus. I am a keen supporter of our armed forces, and I will continue to be so.

We must all agree today that the armed forces are deserving of our respect, support and help. The veterans’ flag will fly this Saturday in the town of Newtonards in my Strangford constituency. Through the hard work done by the Ards borough council and the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association Northern Ireland, a veterans’ event has been arranged for September this year.

I am pleased that the motion makes reference to the armed forces covenant—a subject to close to my heart, for which the Democratic Unionist party has been pressing in Northern Ireland. Let me quote from a debate on Northern Ireland affairs:

“A recent report published by the World Health Organisation on post-traumatic stress disorder found that Northern Ireland had a higher incidence of PTSD and trauma-related illnesses than any other conflict-related country in the world”—

ahead of Lebanon and Israel. The study showed that

“nearly 40% of people in Northern Ireland had been involved in some kind of conflict-related traumatic incident.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 642.]

The survey estimated that about 18,000 people in Northern Ireland had developed mental health problems as a result. There is already a huge demand on relevant services from across Northern Ireland as a result of trauma-related illnesses arising from this conflict, which underlines the seriousness of the issues. This tells us that there is such a heavy strain on these services that they are not able to take care of our service personnel, which we should be able to do.

We need a covenant in place. That is the issue to which I ask the Government to respond. We need our Government to follow this through with specific funding, as befits MOD issues, as well as action to bring Northern Ireland up to the standard of the rest of the United Kingdom. We have heard much about what is happening in England, much about what is happening in Scotland, but I want to see the same thing happening for Northern Ireland.

I was dismayed to read a report of what was said—I pay no disrespect to the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois)—in the Commons Welsh Affairs Committee. When asked about the Welsh level of care in comparison with other devolved nations, he said:

“We have a particular challenge in Northern Ireland because of some of the Sinn Fein-run authorities’ views on the covenant and what it represents. In Northern Ireland, this is particularly sensitive and difficult, so if you’re talking about a score card we would have to take that into account.”

That is not acceptable to me or to the people of Northern Ireland; nor is it acceptable to the families of service personnel who come back changed and need specialised and specific help.

Northern Ireland, despite her small size, still contributes 20% of the reserve forces to the Army. Recruitment spans the Catholic and Protestant divide, which is to be encouraged. It is good to see things moving forward. The Northern Ireland cadets, for instance, have had the largest number of recruits for years. In some sections of the cadet force, the ratio of Protestants to Roman Catholics is 50:50. That will give the House some idea of how far things have advanced as a result of the Northern Ireland political process, and of the positive effect of what we have been trying to do.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, especially as I was not able to be present at the beginning of this important debate. Will he take this opportunity to put on record the deep appreciation that is felt by many people throughout Northern Ireland for the Royal British Legion, and for the many other charities that have supported the armed forces throughout the worst of the times and the troubles, and continue to do so in what are now, thank goodness, peaceful times in Northern Ireland?

[Jim Shannon]

I certainly subscribe to that sentiment. We have been extremely lucky to benefit from the work of the many organisations, including the SAAFA group, Combat Stress and Help the Heroes, which have done so much for us.

The Ulster Defence Regiment and the Home Service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment operate a care service that could perhaps be extended to those serving in the British armed forces. I also ask the Government to consider using buildings that were used during Operation Banner for the benefit of ex-service personnel. I think that we should do more than just ask the House to accept the words in the motion.

Let me end by saying that, to me, “We will remember them” is not merely a phrase; it is a promise. We should not wait any longer to demonstrate that ex-service personnel in Northern Ireland are in our remembrance—today in the House, and tomorrow, as we begin to implement the changes that are so desperately needed.

Operation Herrick

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I am sorry about the railway. If my history serves, we never completed the Cape Town to Cairo railway either, but such are plans. I prefer to focus now on High Speed 2—we should look to the future.

My hon. Friend is right. Today’s announcement will mean that it is not necessary to prepare and train a further brigade to deploy. It is not yet clear whether that will make any significant saving for the taxpayer because most of that deployment, had it taken place, would have been in the back of transport aircraft that would have been going out empty in order to come back with repatriated equipment.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I associate my party with tributes to the soldiers who lost their lives in Afghanistan, and I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. He will be aware of the experience and training gained from Operation Banner in Northern Ireland. Will he confirm that the valuable skills developed through that operation will be made available to the Afghan army to the end of 2014, and indeed beyond?

[Mr Hammond]

I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman that we are training Afghan troops in various specialist techniques that will be of value to the Afghan security forces in maintaining security in future. Of course, that draws on all the experiences that British troops have gained over the years, including many valuable experiences in Northern Ireland.

Deployment to Mali

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

Allowing ungoverned space in Afghanistan would also represent a direct threat to Europe’s security. We know that a significant proportion of the security threats to the UK arise, and have arisen in the past, from the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. What is a threat to Europe’s security and Britain’s security is ungoverned space in which terrorists can organise, exercise freedom of movement, and launch attacks. Wherever ungoverned space arises, whether it is in Somalia, the Sahel, or the Afghanistan-Pakistan border area, we have to take appropriate action to close it down so that that space becomes properly governed and properly monitored.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State kindly for clarifying many of the issues that concern us. There is a great humanitarian crisis developing in Mali, with 230,000 people displaced and 150,000 people having left the country. Will the deployment involve help for the deepening humanitarian crisis and for the infrastructure rebuild?

[Mr Hammond]

My right hon. Friend the International Development Secretary is very much engaged with this issue. The deployment that I have talked about today is a training mission, but we are also looking to provide humanitarian support in the short term to deal with the movement of people in response to conflict, and in the longer term as part of an EU initiative to support the development of civil governance and economic development, particularly in the north of the country, thus addressing some of the underlying problems of at least part of this insurgency.

Armed Forces Redundancies

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Francois]

My hon. Friend is probably the greatest living expert in the House on the reserve forces, so I shall not contradict him here and now. I pay tribute to his work on the reserves commission and to all the preparatory work that he and others, including the vice-chief of the defence staff, undertook in order to put us in the position of having £1.8 billion of resources over 10 years to grow our reserves and to make that a practical reality. I thank him for all that he has done on that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his reassurance about retraining for those who have life after military service. This is not just about the value of military redundancies and the reallocation of housing, however; it is also about mortgages for new houses and how best those people should use their redundancy packages. What monetary advice will the Minister give to those who receive redundancy packages?

[Mr Francois]

We provide financial advice to members of the armed forces at various stages of their careers. When applicants—and non-applicants—go through the redundancy process, the career transition partnership provides them with considerable assistance. I believe that discussions on their financial situation, and on what jobs they might apply for, form part of that process.

Afghanistan

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

Yes, I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend. In particular, progress has to be made on the endemic corruption that still exists in Afghan society and throughout the Afghan economy, if the progress already made is to be built on.

Perhaps I could take this opportunity to tell the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) that I have become aware—by magic—that the net additional cost of military operations since 2001 is estimated as £17.4 billion to date.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. The murder in Pakistan of six aid workers delivering vital polio treatment shocked us all. Can he assure the House that there will be military protection for medical aid workers in Afghanistan to ensure that the polio inoculations and medical treatment that are so important for children and adults can be maintained?

[Mr Hammond]

The responsibility for protecting Afghan local health services will be primarily for the Afghan police and military, but I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman that we were all shocked by the reminder of the primitiveness of some of the Taliban doctrine, and that they would attack people for providing vaccination against life-threatening diseases. That is the scale of the challenge we are dealing with.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Jones]

With respect to the use of UAVs for intelligence gathering and protection of convoys I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. That brings me to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston and the hon. Member for North Wiltshire raised. To people who are against war, we must be honest and say that war is not a pleasant thing; people die in wars. There are individuals and groups active in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan who are bent on undermining not only the way of life of the United States but the one that we take for granted. It is important that any use of force should be a proportionate response.

There has been a lot of talk about the United States and whether the UAV strikes in northern Pakistan are legal. They were authorised post the 11 September authorisation of the use of military forces and have been reinforced by the Obama Administration. When I was at the Ministry of Defence there was a big debate about whether they would continue when President Obama took over, and clearly they have. Article 51 of the United Nations charter, on a nation’s right to self-defence, is also relevant. We must remember that the individuals in question are not sitting around discussing philosophy; they are planning terrorist strikes and atrocities across the world. In the debate about whether we use force to counter those individuals, I am comfortable about recognising the existence of a threat: that has led to disruption of al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups, and it would not have happened without that type of action.

We support the move by the United States to codify the use of UAVs, which relates to the points made about new technology. It is partly because of the controversy that we need to do something. It is important that the UK examine whether we should have a code covering the contexts and limitations of usage, the process for internal Government oversight of deployments, command and control structures, and acceptable levels of automation. I accept that there is now someone at the end of a UAV, but the next generation of UAVs may be completely autonomous, and we must ensure that such a change is within a legal envelope.

One important point is that I am in no way criticising the Government by saying that no laws are in place. I am well aware of the legal constraints on the selection of targets, and that the same rules of engagement are used as for manned flights. We should however explain UAVs to the public. With the new technology, trying to codify their use and explaining to individuals exactly how targets are selected, for example, and how UAVs are used for both surveillance and military purposes would be a great step forward.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

UAVs could be used for piracy patrols on the east coast of Africa and for fishing enforcement. Those two examples would clearly show that drones can have acceptable roles. I agree about their acceptability, and I believe that other people can be persuaded to have the same opinion.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is correct. Certainly, if we can have unmanned vehicles in the UK—once agreement is reached with the Civil Aviation Authority—there may be many uses, as he says, including for security.

It would be helpful if we codified the operations. Am I arguing that no laws currently govern the situation? No, I am not. The rules are based on the Ministry of Defence joint doctrine note 2/11 on “The UK Approach to Unmanned Aircraft Systems”, but the MOD sometimes has a tendency not to answer questions and to think that it has to shroud such things in secrecy. Whether or not what is being said is true—in many cases, I do not think it is—the perception is that the technology is used indiscriminately and without control. Some type of code would go a long way towards reassuring people that there is a chain of command, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston said, for the individual who takes the decision.

There is also a perception that people sitting in Nevada or Florida are killing indiscriminately with no thought of the consequences of what they are doing. I do not accept that. Anyone who has met members of the armed forces of this country or other countries knows that the decision to fire—whether that is Winston Churchill with his revolver, a UAV operator or a pilot dropping munition—is not taken lightly. It is important that people know the full legal background. Unless someone has been involved in operations, they think it is strange that there is a legal context before targetings happen. If we explained that in a codified system, it would help the debate on the use of a new and developing technology.

The Opposition support the use of UAVs. The technology is important in relation not only to military capability, but to the development of our industry and technology in that area. We are developing technologies that will have applications other than military use. As has already been demonstrated in Afghanistan, the technology helps to protect and support our armed forces.

In conclusion, I accept that some of the information about what has happened in northern Pakistan is alarming. The important thing is to understand the context and how the deaths of some individuals have disrupted terrorist networks that were bringing danger not only to parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan but to the streets of London and the capitals of our allies. In terms of the general debate started by my hon. Friend, the use of weapons will never be something that people take lightly, and nor should they. If we can debate the use of UAVs as no different from the use of any other military weapons and we put that into some kind of code, which we could be open about, not secretive, it would do a lot to ensure not only that we in this country are moral leaders in the use of weapons, but that the public have full confidence, as they should, in the existing military chain of command.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dunne]

Indeed, a number of Opposition Members asked about that issue. The extent to which the Government are supporting UK industrial investment in this technology is demonstrated by the commitments that we have made, in particular for Watchkeeper, where a very substantial investment has been made for a British-designed, British-built capability.

We have also undertaken some collaborative work with other nations. The issue of our collaboration with the French was raised earlier. We have committed, through a memorandum of understanding signed in July, to two specific strands of that work. One is investing in the concept phase for a future combat air system; that is at the very early stages of the work stream, but work is beginning. The second was in relation to potential French interest in procuring the Watchkeeper system. If British industry is able to export that system to the French in due course, that would be a further success for it. We recognise that British aerospace industry will take an increasing interest in this capability, and through our procurement we are seeking to support that interest.

[Jim Shannon]

The Minister, in an earlier response, said that there might not be a role for drones in the MOD in its entirety, but there is a role through the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy’s responsibility is for fishing enforcement, through European regulation. There are three ships set aside for that; I had the opportunity a few weeks ago to be on one, HMS Severn. Is there any intention of introducing drones in the Royal Navy for enforcement of fishing regulation?

[Mr Dunne]

As I mentioned earlier, the Royal Navy is undertaking a short-duration capability concept demonstrator, to inform the future concept of use for tactical maritime unmanned air systems. We are not intending to test a specific system, but a system will go through concept demonstration next year. The uses will be for the Royal Navy to decide, if it decides to procure a system in due course.

I think I have addressed the specific questions that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston put to me.