Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you. I will take two more questions, from Kirsten Oswald and Bob Blackman.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q To expand on a point made earlier, I wonder what more is necessary in terms of promotion and advertising action. I am very concerned about the matter of football strips and, indeed, sports stadiums being sponsored by vaping companies. The messages that that sends to the young people who are taking up vaping in such numbers is hugely problematic. It strikes me that within your areas of expertise there are probably other areas where we could extend what we are seeking to do here, in order that we do the best job possible of trying to close these loopholes.

[Bob Blackman]

All three witnesses have given support for the Bill. You have already suggested one change that could be made in terms of age verification, similar to the system in Scotland. Are there any other changes that you think should be implemented that could make the Bill stronger? One of the concerns that many of us have is that we get only a limited number of chances to deal with this challenge in primary legislation, so we need to get in as much as we can to make sure that we achieve the smoke-free England that we all want to see.

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[The Chair]

We have time for another round of questions, if Members want.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I am grateful to you both for your comments so far. Would you say more about your thoughts on groups of people, particularly young people —this is a thing you will hear around the table—who are taking up vaping but have not previously smoked. Do the measures in the Bill go as far as you want in trying to prevent that from being the direction of travel?

Dr Griffiths: If the Committee is minded to strengthen anything that would prohibit people from starting vaping in the first instance, where they are not doing so as a cessation tool—I hope it is really clear that we believe that, as a cessation tool, this is a product that has its place that would help thousands of smokers give up and, ideally, prevent them from losing their quality of life or, tragically, their lives; I hope that is explicitly clear—I think that could have incredible impact. What we are worried about is people using vaping as a start and an entry point to nicotine. Nicotine is so highly addictive. You see that in the number of smokers who desperately want to give up. We have spoken to such people in abundance. Anything that helps us get to that point would be welcome.

Sarah Sleet: Nicotine, we know, is as addictive as heroin and cocaine. It is a terrible addiction. However, in terms of vaping, it is going to be quite tricky to get that balancing act right. We really need to have vaping as a cessation tool. We know it is more effective than just about anything else you can have in terms of cessation. For example, when it comes to flavouring, if you make that too difficult or make it problematic for people to switch, then there is a chance that we may have a real problem in terms of stopping smoking. On the other hand, we really do not want people to be attracted into vaping who have never smoked. I understand that that bit of the legislation is in secondary legislation and can be adapted over time; I think a lot of attention is going to need to be given to how people are actually responding and how they are behaving, and then adjusting that over time.

[Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con)]

Q You have been quite clear that even though we do not yet have the evidence to understand the impacts of vaping, it is a very important cessation tool. Do you see a world in which it could be prescribed as a cessation tool, as opposed to being available as a retail product?

Sarah Sleet: I believe that is the system in Australia—it is prescribed. I think it is a possibility. It needs to be well researched. Would it still encourage people who need to stop smoking to use it as a tool, or would it put a barrier up to using that tool? Before we move to that system, we would need some really good behavioural evidence that it is not going to be a further barrier for people. If it is not, then that could be a really good option.

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[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here, and also particularly for the work that the NASUWT has done in terms of the impact on schools. Could you expand on that a bit further? I have done a couple of visits ahead of this Bill. I met enforcement officers, for example, who gave me anecdotal evidence that teachers say that pupils will return to the classroom with their eyes spinning and unable to concentrate because of the heady nature of whatever it is they have just been vaping or smoking. There was another anecdote about a school where children decided to drink the vape fluid and the school actually had to have a sort of emergency evacuation as a result of that.

Could you therefore expand on that, in terms of the specific health impacts and, at the one end, the ability of children to concentrate on the class when they are spaced out on vapes, and, at the other end, the very real risk to children from doing something stupid with a vape that was entirely unintended, with disastrous consequences?

Patrick Roach: I very much appreciate your remarks about the research that the NASUWT has undertaken. We come at the problem of vaping from the point of view of our members in classrooms, in schools the length and breadth of the country. What do teachers need in order to be able to teach effectively and what do they believe that pupils need in order to learn effectively? They need good order in the classroom.

My perspective is not that of a medical practitioner or of someone wanting to assume that I have the knowledge about the impact of vaping on a child’s physical development. Our concern is the impact on a child’s educational development, participation and achievement. The reality is that everything you have mentioned there is absolutely right, whether it is about the way in which vaping products might be unintentionally used by pupils; or about how they seek to conceal them about their person; or, indeed, the drinking of vaping fluids, as if somehow that will get the high without necessarily being detected; or about the use of vaping products as a stimulant, which impacts not only on concentration but on behaviour and, indeed, on a child’s wellbeing in the classroom.

Matthew has already referenced the difficulty of detecting vapes sometimes, because they can dissipate very quickly; and they can also trigger fire alarms in schools. We have had plenty of examples of teachers and headteachers reporting that their school has had to evacuate the building not just on one or two occasions in a day but multiple times—five or six occasions. That is a loss of learning not just for one pupil or class of pupils but the entire school. We are really concerned about the impact of all that.

Teachers are not just concerned about a child’s educational development, though; they are also concerned about a child’s wellbeing in the round. Teachers are reporting the very damaging impact that vaping can have on a child’s mental and physical development, just as smoking can. That is one of the reasons we have spoken out—and we are pleased that the Government have responded—to say that we need to be doing more to strengthen the enforcement of rules around vaping, access to it and the availability for school-age pupils. We need to do as much as we possibly can to prevent any school-age pupil from getting access to vaping products, whether in or outside school. We are pleased that the Bill seeks to do just that.

Matthew Shanks: I absolutely echo and reinforce what Patrick has said. Also, as school leaders we are looking after teachers, but we are caring for families as well. The Bill will help families to understand that it is not okay for their children to vape. Anecdotally we have parents saying to us that they let children vape at home, because it is better than them smoking or being out on the streets; parents do not see the harm in it. It is really important that that is recognised. The banning of tobacco sale was interesting in terms of the prescription of it; I would posit that at the moment vaping is seen as safe by the general public.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I wonder if you can develop some of the points you have made, which have been very useful. I am hearing anecdotally about issues in schools where the addiction of children to these vapes is itself causing a problem, because the children are unable to sit in the classroom and have to go out to vape, with whatever excuse is made, so that they then feel able to come back to the classroom, such is the level of their addiction to these products. If I may go beyond that slightly, what are your views on the way these things are promoted—for instance, on our particular concern about vape companies advertising on sports strips and in sports stadiums, and the impact on the same young people who are so addicted?

Matthew Shanks: I completely agree. The way in which vapes are marketed—the colours, flavours and so on—and the places where they are marketed suggest to people that they are safe. The fact that they are put forward as a “safe” alternative to cigarettes, the fact that parents use them and the fact that there are lots of colourful vape shops open in high streets: all those aspects promote the idea that vaping is okay.

At the same time, getting into a child’s mindset—we have all been there, as children—we like to break the rules and feel like we are pushing at boundaries. We know that it is not okay, but it is made okay. I would suggest that more children engage in vaping than in cigarette smoking, because they are not sure what the harmful effects are. That is the danger in it. I do think it leads on, because the younger children vape, but by the time they are 16 or 17, vaping might not be cool any more, so they go on to cigarettes or other things.

Anecdotally, we have heard of schools down in the south-west where people are putting cannabis into the vapes, so the addiction grows from that point of view as well. It leads to children coming out of lessons agitated. If I did not have three coffees in the morning, my agitation would be quite high. If children are not getting nicotine, as well as going through all the other things they are going through, they really do present as confrontational to staff, which makes it difficult to deal with them in classrooms and engage them in their learning. At the same time, to repeat a point I made earlier, you have parents at home who are saying, “Well, it’s okay to do.” I absolutely concur about the way it is marketed and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, because those are important points: vape producers and manufacturers, and indeed those supplying vapes, are advertising freely in ways that make their products increasingly attractive to children and young people, with the way vapes are advertised and the marketing descriptors used for them. All the evidence we have, and certainly what our members tell us—our survey was of 4,000 teachers, so this is not anecdotal; it has an impact right across the system— suggests that the way those products are marketed and described deliberately seeks to entice young people to make use of them.

We believe that this is a strong Bill that very clearly sets out the societal expectations in this space, but as with any legislation, there is always scope for loopholes. If there are areas in the Bill where there is potential to further strengthen the legislation, I think the enticing way products are described, before an individual understands what they are getting themselves into, is something that needs to be considered and addressed.

From our point of view, it is about advertising, but it is also about access to these products. With the best will in the world, and no matter how they are advertised, if the products are easily available at the point of sale it makes things incredibly difficult. I remember that when I was bringing up my own children I worried about going to the supermarket with them, because they would be surrounded by candy and sweet products at the checkouts. You could not navigate your way through the checkouts. Thankfully, things have moved on: that has changed, and many parents are benefiting from those changes.

Young people are very much interacting with many of these products at the point of sale. They are in the shops that are in the vicinity of or on the route to and from school. They are being marketed in places that young people will frequent, whether that be a local café, the hairdressers or the barbers. They are in places where young people will be. They are also immediately available. The more we can do to stop the immediacy of marketing of these products and that easy availability, no matter how they are described, the better.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I have been hearing from parents and schools in my constituency that they are very concerned that children are going out at lunchtime and spending their lunch money on vapes, so they are not having anything nutritious during the day. Is there any evidence that indicates that there might be a pattern developing in that respect that will have an impact on children’s physical health and wellbeing?

Matthew Shanks: Absolutely: children will find any which way they can to do what they want to do. At the moment, while this is not illegal, they will gather more people to follow the crowd and go out. In my experience, the majority of children want to do as they are instructed—probably about 85%, anecdotally, over the years—but they will follow the herd. At the moment, there is a greater herd growing because of all the things we have talked about, with the marketing and colour of vapes. I can absolutely see children going out at lunchtime and spending their money on that, instead of on food. There is peer pressure to do that as well—it is taking more people with them. As Patrick said, you can see these products in the barbers, in the shops and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, there are also bullying behaviours that manifest themselves. Whether a pupil is making the choice to go out at lunchtime to acquire vapes or is feeling coerced to do so, there is an issue either way. The availability of those products in the proximity of schools needs to be considered. That is a point that we would make.

Increasingly, schools have introduced systems to seek to ensure that children are being fed at lunch times, for example. We should not lose sight of that, but in some instances these products—particularly disposable vapes —are cheap as chips. I know that that is an issue of concern to the Government, and it is of concern to us and our members.

It is really important that we look at how we can ban the sale of disposable vapes entirely, because frankly no one knows what is in them, and they are incredibly cheap to acquire. Even if your parent can see what you had on Tuesday lunchtime because it comes up on their phone, how will they know if you have spent 10 minutes popping out to the local shop to acquire some vapes, particularly if they are of the disposable variety? More can be done not only to limit appeal, but to reduce the availability and accessibility of those products to young people. The more that can be done on that, the better.

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[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you. Would that older person suffering those consequences say: “Yes, it was all a matter of free choice”?

Paul Farmer: I think different people will have different opinions about choice, and whether it was as a result of choice. I think what many older people have been telling us is that if they had known about the damaging consequences of smoking, they would not have started in the first place and would certainly have considered it in a greater way.

I want to pay huge tribute to colleagues at British Heart Foundation, who I know you have just heard from, who I think have taken the best way of trying to campaign over a long term on this issue. This is a long-term issue. Sadly today’s generation of older people is seeing the consequences of what has not happened.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q Could you explain who “older people” are? Sadly, I recently recognised that that might include more of us than we might like to believe. We need to take that on board. What I am really interested in are the different demographic groups, and where you think there might be disproportionate levels of harm from tobacco and vaping within the groups of older people that you support.

Paul Farmer: We work with people over the age of 50, which may be news to some of you here. One of the reasons why we have recently chosen to drop the age group that we increasingly work with is precisely for prevention and early intervention.

This is not the earliest intervention; you can, of course, argue that many health interventions need to take place among children and younger people. However, from an Age UK point of view, we know that there is potential to intervene in people’s lives and support them to live healthier lives—it is not just about health, but in this context it is mainly about health—which means that your healthy life expectancy can improve and, as I mentioned earlier, you can fulfil some of the ambitions of your later life. The burden on the NHS of unhealthy life expectancy is a big issue.

The bulk of our direct work is with people over pensionable age, if you like. In each of those generations, you see the differences in experiences of smoking. Somebody now in their 80s or 90s almost certainly will not be alive if they are a heavier smoker, because they probably will not have benefited from any of the public health information that has taken place under previous Governments, so that is obviously the major difference.

In terms of the different health conditions, we know that certain health conditions will increase with age. Dementia is the greatest example of that, where we know that the older you are, the more likely you are to develop dementia. In a sense, as our population as a whole has gotten healthier and lived longer, it has become increasingly apparent where those health inequalities are at their most acute.

[The Chair]

I will attempt one final question from Dr Lisa Cameron. I simply make the point that the briefer the question, the more possibility there is that she will get an answer.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Why do you support the complete ban as opposed to raising the age from 18 to 21, as many people often say? I know the Khan review has talked about not getting to a smoke-free future if we did that, but is there anything you would like to say about that?

Greg Fell: Years and years ago, the narrative was about raising the age of sale to 21, but I think the evidence has shifted. I hear from a number of stakeholders and sources that the tobacco industry is targeting its public relations at slightly older young people—the 18 to 25 age group. If you were to stop at 21, the tobacco industry would just change its marketing and you would therefore get a new target group recruited into smoking. Nobody thinks that that is a good idea, so the evidence is shifting.

The ban sets a really important norm. We can all remember walking out of a pub smelling of cigarettes. We cannot imagine that now, so continually shifting the norm changes population behaviour just by norm shifting, which is important and often underplayed. I would support the lifting lid—I think that is the right phrase.

Cllr Fothergill: I think Greg is absolutely right. At the LGA, we support the progressive lifting of the age as opposed to raising it to 21. We think that is the right way to go. It will then move through the population over a number of years rather than just being static at a single point.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q We heard in an evidence session earlier about the challenges in schools, with children vaping in increasing numbers. There is an impact on their education because of their becoming addicted, and that causes challenges in their interactions with the learning process. Do you think that the measures in the Bill are sufficient to deal with that growing problem? Do you have a view on whether we have a handle on the quantum of that problem, and are the measures on advertising sufficient to try to remedy that?

Greg Fell: Yes, in part, in terms of the measures in the Bill. I would treat vapes like I would treat cigarettes in terms of colours and marketing, with plain packs out of sight behind the counter and strongly enforced. I would take care, though: we use and want to continue to use vapes as a route out of smoking cigarettes, so getting the balance right remains important, but I would be quite aggressive about the regulation and the deterrent.

Education in schools by itself will not be sufficient. It might or might not be effective, but it will not be sufficient. Action on Smoking and Health has co-produced with a number of local authorities a range of resource packs for parents, teachers and others, which are fairly widely used, but they are not sufficient by themselves to stop the rise in young people vaping, so we need strong regulation with the enforcement of that to boot.

Cllr Fothergill: It is not part of this Bill, but it is part of LGA policy that we would like to see a ban on disposable vapes. There are 5 million sold every week, with the vast majority sold to younger people. The vast majority are thrown away. Those that are thrown away responsibly finish up in one of our recycling lorries where the lithium batteries cause major problems with fires. It is not part of this legislation, but we think that that needs to be tackled separately; I think it will be.

Greg Fell: One point that I just remembered on the resource pack that has been widely circulated to headteachers and schools: a line was taken in that to tell the truth—not to over-egg the pudding but to tell the truth and say what we do and do not know, because in my experience scaring kids usually switches them on to something rather than turning them off something. In the pack, we have also told the truth about the methods and tactics that the tobacco industry has used to get kids hooked on vapes, and that as a rule makes kids pretty angry. It certainly makes parents pretty angry when they realise what has happened.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Q If I may, Mr Fell, I will bring you back to the issue of passive vaping. You talked about there not being so much evidence on the harms of passive vaping compared with passive smoking, which is correct. Of course, smoking has been around much longer for the effects to be understood. However, there are papers, published in reliable journals such as The BMJ, saying that those people—in particular, young adults who do not smoke or vape—who are exposed to passive vaping do get an increase in bronchial symptoms.

Greg Fell: Agreed.

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[Dr Cameron]

Q But it is probably more difficult to tell whether someone is 35, 40 or 45 than whether someone is an older adult, going on a bus, or whether someone is a teenager rather than someone in their mid-20s. I am just wondering how that could work, in a sense, in terms of the training.

Adrian Simpson: I agree—that is difficult. It takes me back to discussions around Challenge 25, which we have mentioned. It started out as Challenge 21, and the age was raised because it was very difficult to tell the difference between a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old. Technology is evolving in this area. There are new things. We know that members are using new forms of technology to help with that. They rely on things like Government-issued ID. There are various ways of challenging someone. It comes down to things like the training and how the consumer is around the till. Are they acting nervous or like they are up to something? It is then down to the retailer to use the training that they have been given to check the ID and use their own in-store procedures, as well to try to operate responsibly.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q To follow on from that dialogue, it strikes me that a degree of social change will be needed, because it will have to become normal for you to go into a shop and provide whatever kind of ID. It seems to me unlikely that that will be a conversation that will centre on whether you look this age or a year older. Has that led you to any conversations with people who deal with things like bus passes or the voter ID that is required? Is the communication of that to the public—a different angle from the communication to the retail staff—something that you are working on?

Adrian Simpson: Yes, we do work closely with trading standards, who are very good at doing the education side. It is not just about educating our members, but educating the public and bringing about a cultural change where it is almost expected that you will be asked for ID. If you have been in any large retailer recently, you have probably seen the badges they wear that say, “It’s our job to ask for your age”, for example. Certainly, among our member businesses, it very much is the culture to go for the Challenge 25. Although these regulations with the rolling age will have challenges, I am sure our members are well placed to overcome them.

[The Chair]

Adrian, thank you so much for your evidence this afternoon. It has been clear and concise.

Adrian Simpson: Thank you, Sir Gary, and thank you, everyone.

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[Dr Johnson]

Q My question follows on from that of my colleague. Lincolnshire police measured what was in vapes confiscated from children in my constituency. They found chemicals like diethylene glycol diacetate, antifreeze, Steol-M, poster varnish and others. As I understand it, when they look at a vape in a box, one of the challenges for enforcers is being able to tell whether it is a real, legitimate vape that contains what it is supposed to contain or a fake vape that contains a whole load of nonsense and potentially harmful chemicals. How could the legislation help you with that?

Secondly, someone showed me on packets of cigarettes recently that there is a scannable code, and trading standards have a special scanner that they can scan that with. Would that sort of thing help on so-called legitimate vapes?

Kate Pike: Potentially. The track-and-trace legislation on tobacco that enables us to scan a packet of tobacco and find out if it is where it should be—it is tracked all the way through the system—could potentially work on vapes. It would be very complicated to bring in—well, not complicated; it would be a big exercise to bring in track and trace for vapes, but it is potentially something. As you know, there is a consultation out at the moment for vapes to become an excise product, so it could possibly be that we introduce track and trace alongside that for vapes.

If you look at a vape and you look at the packaging, there are lots of red flags that tell us if it is illegal. We can usually tell by the packaging alone. We are doing some market surveillance work at the moment for vapes that look as if they should be compliant; they are notified to the MHRA, to check the ingredients. So far, touch wood, we are not finding too many issues in those nominally compliant vapes. But there are so many illegal vapes out there. It is actually quite easy to see that they are illegal, when you see them. We do know how to identify them at the moment, but obviously it could become more difficult. We will just have to make sure that the new regulations are still enforceable when they come in. For example, if there is a ban on types of flavour, we would want that to be really clear. We do not want to have to go round sniffing or tasting. It needs to be clear by the description, rather than just some sort of guess along the lines of, “Is that strawberry bakewell-flavoured?” It would be very difficult for us to manage that.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I do not know if others have had this experience, but I am aware that I am increasingly being advertised at online by products that, although I am not really sure what they are, are certainly connected or proximate to tobacco or vapes. That leads me to wonder whether there are any tobacco, vaping or other connected or related products that are not covered by this Bill, which you think perhaps should be.

Kate Pike: I think the Bill is really good at closing some of those loopholes. It will include an age restriction on 0% nicotine vapes, for example. There are other nicotine products, such as the little nicotine pouches. The popular term is, I think, snus, but we know that snus is already banned in this country. The enabling regulations to put a regulatory framework around products like that will be really helpful. These industries are very innovative, so we just need to make sure that we are keeping up with our regulation. I think that the enabling regulation powers will enable us to keep up with new products, but it is continually little steps, and regulation chasing after innovation. We would like it to be the other way round, really.

[Trudy Harrison]

Q You are both very effectively articulating the complexity of your programme of work within trading standards, but 2027 seems like a terribly long timeframe. Given what we know about nicotine addiction and the outcomes, is it the right timeframe, and what will you need to be doing in that timeframe to achieve the deadline?

John Herriman: I think this is all about strategic resourcing. As I have already articulated, the profession has had a significant cut in resources over the last decade or so. Actually, we now have to go into a phase where we are rebuilding the capacity. We can do this; we know that we can enforce regulations, because we have seen that we can do it successfully within the world of tobacco. It is now about what we are doing as a profession to start building back that capacity. We are taking some new steps: for example, there are now apprenticeship schemes running in England, both at level 6 and level 4, and we are supporting the level 4 apprenticeships in Scotland and Wales.

One of the things that I think is really good about the Bill, and the work that DHSC and other Departments have been doing, is the taking of a strategic view. We have to build this capacity gradually—fairly swiftly, actually—into trading standards, but we also have to be clear on expectations with businesses, so that they know what is coming and we can therefore make sure that we are moving at the same sort of pace. By taking that strategic approach, it allows us to build the capacity at the right level and make sure we have trading standards officers who are qualified—it can sometimes take two to three years to train somebody as a fully-qualified trading standards officer. That way, we have a sustainable platform to make sure that the legislation can be enforced. Essentially, that is what we are seeing here. We have not seen this level of strategic approach to resourcing and tackling a problem in many other areas, so it is quite welcome.

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[The Chair]

Thank you very much. You will hear first from your own Member of Parliament, Kirsten Oswald, who will ask the first question.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I have kept you as a constituent, Laura, despite your being away studying. I know that you will have handled conversations probably significantly better than the rest of us on the prevalence of vapes in all our communities, particularly in areas near schools and the coast, where they can lead to plastic pollution. Can you tell us what change you have seen over the last couple of years in terms of the numbers and explain why that is problematic to the environment ?

Laura Young: The environmental impact cannot be overstated. Vapes are a huge issue, especially for waste, and we have seen the numbers growing and growing. Material Focus, an environmental electronics charity, did some research specifically looking at disposable vapes in 2022 and 2023 and the number quadrupled. In 2023 we were looking at about 5 million a week. Jam-packed inside each and every vape are lots of precious materials, which of course are going to waste after one single use. We know they are not being recycled, so those materials are just being wasted. We are not getting them back.

We also know that vapes pose a huge risk to our waste workers. They have lithium batteries inside them and we have seen some devastating fires already because of them. That represents what we have been hearing today. Walking down any high street you will see the prevalence of these being sold in almost every type of shop everywhere. We see them sold everywhere, wasted everywhere, and having a huge impact on the environment and the health of people and children who get their hands on them.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Would you like to say a little more around how tobacco and vaping products impact the environment? There was an opportunity for the Government to do a lot more on cigarette butts. Do you want to say anything about that?

Laura Young: Of course, one of the obvious things is litter. Every single street has cigarette butts on it and that is very harmful. We do not want any litter, if possible. Disposable vapes have become an increasing site of litter as well. They are not just litter; they are electronic devices and are very damaging with lots of chemicals inside them. We have even had garage owners talking about people popping tyres with these shards of metal as they get squashed and run over, so they are very damaging.

All the way through the process of particularly vapes we see a lot of material resource—lithium, copper and cobalt, things that have to be mined around the world—put together for these devices to be used just once before they run out and are thrown away. The disposability speaks to a lot of the other problems. These are made as disposable. They are throwaway and cheap, and that leads to the fact that so many young people buy them because they are cheap, accessible and throwaway. Something that is absolutely an environmental issue with waste and litter is also a big problem in terms of accessibility for young people.

Liver Disease and Liver Cancer

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Christopher. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) for securing this important debate on health inequalities in liver disease and liver cancer. It is a particularly timely debate, given the recent publication of statistics showing that alcohol deaths in the UK surged during the covid-19 pandemic. While alcohol misuse is not the only cause of liver disease, it is, as we have heard, responsible for a large proportion of cases, and that does need to be addressed.

As the hon. Member for Stockport set out, we need to acknowledge that liver disease has an inescapable link to deprivation. The incidence of liver disease and the risk of hospitalisation and death are all significantly higher in regions and nations of the UK that have higher levels of deprivation relative to London and the south-east of England. It is important to discuss this, and it is welcome that we are having a debate on the topic today. We should do so from the starting point that deprivation leads to poorer health outcomes. In the case of liver disease and liver cancer, that means that someone from the most deprived area is four times more likely to die than someone from a more affluent area. That is not acceptable.

It is now conventional wisdom that preventing a disease is far more desirable than having to treat or cure it. In Scotland, we have rates of liver disease that are far too high. However, I am grateful that the Scottish Government have introduced policies that are making a real difference by reducing deprivation, decreasing the incidence of liver disease and improving early detection.

The Scottish Government, looking at the issue in the broadest sense, have introduced policies such as the Scottish child payment, which anti-poverty charities have described as a “game changer”. Combined with other interventions, it has the potential to lift an estimated 100,000 children out of poverty. That investment is just one example of the Scottish Government intervening at the early stages of life to reduce inequality, and it will undoubtedly help in our fight against conditions such as liver disease, and indeed all other diseases associated with inequality and deprivation.

The introduction of minimum unit pricing in Scotland has also delivered results. In England, where there is no minimum unit pricing, liver disease mortality and morbidity continue to rise, whereas in Scotland, health inequalities are gradually decreasing. This has resulted in chronic liver disease deaths in Scotland decreasing from 17.9 per 100,000 in 2021 to 17.4 per 100,000 in 2022. Let me be clear: those figures are still stark, and more action needed. However, minimum unit pricing has reduced alcohol-related harms and alcohol-specific deaths by 13.4%. That is surely an intervention that we should now see across the whole UK to help to tackle liver disease, among other issues.

Scotland’s innovative life sciences sector has produced groundbreaking tests to help to diagnose liver disease at earlier stages, when damage can be reversed and the progression to cirrhosis or cancer halted. Unfortunately, as we have heard, the reality is that three in four liver disease patients present at crisis point, usually in A&E, with cirrhosis and all the horrible symptoms that come with that condition. Researchers from the University of Dundee have developed the new intelligent liver function test, which uses an algorithm to perform additional investigations on abnormal blood test results. The test can help to refer patients to specialists earlier than would otherwise be the case, minimising the workload of GPs in primary care and increasing the diagnostic rate of liver disease threefold. It has the potential to revolutionise the diagnostic pathway.

Focusing on tackling alcohol misuse, obesity and viral hepatitis are all important in lowering the rate of liver disease and liver cancer, but we cannot escape the fact that the UK Government’s decision to inflict more than a decade of austerity has exacerbated the inequalities and deprivation associated with liver disease. If the UK Government want to get serious about tackling liver disease, they need to get serious about tackling inequality. Threatening to cut the benefits of disabled people who are unable to work does nothing to tackle inequality. Forcing real-terms cuts on departmental budgets that are already strained because of inflation does not deliver the services needed to tackle inequality.

The UK has one of the highest levels of regional inequality in Europe, and until there is a real and concerted effort to change that basic fact, poorer outcomes for liver disease and liver cancer, particularly among the most deprived communities, will remain stubbornly hard to improve. I hope that we will hear today about the action that the UK Government are willing to take to ensure that that statistic quickly becomes a thing of the past.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 16th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I am not speaking in this debate because I love smoking, although I have voted against every single smoking prohibition since I have been a Member of Parliament. I am speaking today because I am very concerned that the policy that has been put forward is emblematic of a technocratic establishment in this county that wants to limit people’s freedom. That is a problem.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Elizabeth Truss]

I will not give way to the hon. Lady—[Hon. Members: “Oh.”] I will not give way. I will give exactly as much opportunity as the Opposition gave me to talk about my private Member’s Bill, which I shall come on to later.

The problem is that the instinct of this establishment, which is reflected in cross-party consensus in the Chamber, is to believe that it—that the Government—is better at making decisions for people than people themselves. I absolutely agree that that is true for the under-18s. It is very important that we protect people while they are growing up until they have decision-making capability. However, I think the whole idea that we can protect adults from themselves is hugely problematic and effectively infantilises people. That is what has been going on. We are seeing, not just on tobacco but on sugar, alcohol and meat, a group of people who want to push an agenda which is about limiting personal freedom. I think that that is fundamentally wrong.

I go out canvassing a lot in my Norfolk constituency. People raise all kinds of issues with me on the doorstep. They are concerned about immigration. They are concerned about the cost of energy. They are concerned about the rise of China. They want to support Ukraine. Not a single voter has ever said to me, “My big concern is adults smoking.” This proposal has not come from people—our constituents—talking to us. It has come from a group of people who, by and large, work in a professional capacity pushing these policies. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) was Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, this proposal was sitting on her desk, so it is not new. I am pleased to say that she put it in the bin, but unfortunately since then it seems to have been pulled out of the bin and resuscitated. My real fear is that this is not the final stage that the health police want to push.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am pleased to speak here today in favour of the Bill, part 2 of which specifically relates to Scotland, because smoking is the leading cause of preventable death in both Scotland and the UK. We know that, so we are surely duty bound to act and prevent harms. To be clear from the outset, I want us to help people to stop smoking. Smoking cessation, as well as preventing future harm, requires our action.

Dr Ian Walker, executive director of policy at Cancer Research UK, has correctly pointed out that nothing will have a bigger impact on reducing the number of preventable deaths in the UK then ending smoking. I will not go into detail about the terrible reality of the health impacts of smoking. We have heard about them already today, particularly powerfully from those who have worked directly in the medical environment. We have seen significant successes where we have acted on smoking in the past. I remember when the ban on smoking in indoor public spaces came into effect in Scotland, a first in the UK. It was a bit controversial, but not for long. It has undoubtedly hugely improved our environment and, importantly, our health outcomes. We have seen an important decrease in the numbers of smokers, but let us be real—there are still far too many lives being destroyed by smoking.

I am very glad that Scotland has been in front of the curve on these issues, whether that be with the indoor ban, the overhaul of tobacco sale and display, the ambitious goal of a smoke-free Scotland by 2034 or an issue that I have often spoken about here, the consultation on disposable vapes. The direction of travel is welcome. The SNP welcomes the collaborative step towards creating a smoke-free generation. It is not just us—the public are looking for action too. Action on Smoking and Health tells us that the largest poll of public opinion conducted to date—over 13,000 adults were polled—found 69% in support, including over half of all current smokers.

I watched with some despair—a little bit like I watched some of the proceedings in the House today—media interviews this morning where the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) said some of the things she repeated here in the Chamber. She said:

“I don’t know why this legislation is being brought forward”.

I would have thought that was pretty obvious really, but let me help her with that: it is to stop people dying. She then said, as she has again during the debate, that this is “unconservative” legislation. To be fair, I know absolutely nothing about being a Conservative and I am very much OK with that, but what a bizarre statement. Surely regardless of our varying political views, we can look at the health impacts of smoking and say they is not the future we want, and not the damage, harm and heartbreak we want for future generations.

Let us be clear that any arguments put forward about personal choice or personal freedom make no sense at all when we are talking about children and a highly addictive substance. Smoking is not a free choice; it is an addiction. Nicotine is a horribly addictive substance. That is why this is a positive and necessary move, and one widely welcomed, including by Asthma and Lung UK. That organisation points to the significant harm to future generations if we do not act now, and highlights the enormous cost to the NHS if we do not take this preventative action when we have the opportunity to do so.

Scottish Government Public Health Minister Jenni Minto MSP has welcomed the Bill, pointing out that Scotland has been a world leader on a range of tobacco control measures. While there has been a steady reduction in the proportion of people smoking, we know it still damages lives and kills more than 8,000 people a year in Scotland. If we do not act, we know perfectly well what the impact of that inaction will be.

We also know that smoking causes and exacerbates health inequalities, which is exactly why we need to have a tobacco-free Scotland. Indeed, Mark Rowland, chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation, points out:

“Smoking harms disproportionally affect those with poor mental health and stopping smoking has been shown to be as effective as anti-depressants. The Tobacco and Vapes Bill is a once in a generation opportunity to prevent the known mental and physical harms that smoking causes and regulate commercial interests from undermining the health of future generations.”

Asthma and Lung UK notes that the harms of tobacco are not equally distributed. In fact, smoking is responsible for half of the difference in life expectancy between the richest and poorest in society. That generational nature of tobacco addiction means that children born today to parents who smoke are four times as likely to take up smoking themselves and to find it harder to quit. So the impact of smoking in terms of generational inequality and harm is clear and known, and we should aim to change that.

I am grateful to Asthma and Lung UK, and to the many other groups that sent me briefing materials. The breadth and range of organisations, including many medical and health groups, that have been in touch to urge me to support improvements in health and to stop future generations becoming addicted to tobacco, is very interesting and speaks to the wide spectrum of those determined to stop this harm, including, as we have heard, a majority of the public and retailers.

I would like to spend a little time talking about vapes, particularly disposable vapes. To nobody’s surprise, I am going to be positive in my support for any and all measures to arrest the tidal wave of children vaping, which should absolutely chill us all. The health impacts on children are terrifying, and that is only the ones we know about. My view is very firmly that all disposable vapes should be banned now, immediately. We should deal with the utmost urgency with the significant harms these devices are causing to our environment and to eye-watering numbers of children. Which of us can seriously say they are confident it is not their children? Members are deluding themselves if they believe that is the case.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

As the hon. Lady knows, as we worked on this subject together, I brought forward a ten-minute rule Bill to ban disposable vapes last year. The measures in that Bill do not form part of the legislation today, because this is health legislation, but the banning of disposable vapes forms part of a statutory instrument that has been brought forward as environmental legislation. Does she welcome that?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s intervention. As she knows, it is important for us to look at disposable vapes in the round, including their devastating environmental effects as well as the terrible impacts they have on the health of our young people. Whichever angle we look from, these are devices of which we have no need and that we should get rid of as soon as possible, before they cause any more harm.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

The proliferation of vapes has happened almost overnight. Does my hon. Friend share the concerns of my constituent, who runs a newsagent and tobacconist, that he is holding the fort on legislation about the sale of tobacco, yet vapes are not subject to the same controls? He may refuse somebody because he does not think they are of age to buy a vape, but he finds they just go down the street to purchase it at another shop that does not have the controls and responsibilities that he has as a tobacco salesperson.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that important point. I can understand the concerns of her constituent; these devices are far too accessible and far too easily available. They are in all of our schools and on all of our high streets. We need to open our eyes to the damage that is being done. ASH Scotland does great work in that regard. It tells us that, in Scotland, data from the health behaviour in school-aged children survey showed that current e-cigarette use—that means those who have used them in the last 30 days—among 15-year-olds increased from 7% in 2018, which I would have thought was scary enough, to a horrifying 25% in 2022. Obviously we are a bit beyond that now, so I wonder exactly what the figure is, but we have heard enough in the Chamber today to know that, whatever that current figure is, it should cause us grave concern.

These products are designed to be attractive. They are undoubtedly attractive—we have all seen them. They are disposable, so young people can chuck them before their parents find out, they are pocket-money prices, and they are appealing—green gummy bear flavour, anyone? In fact, the green gummy bear flavoured one is on sale for £1.50, which is a disgrace. Vapes should not be accessible in that way, and should certainly not be sold at £1.50. They could not be designed any more obviously to attract young people. Very often, we are talking about children who have never smoked, but who are now getting hooked on these vapes and getting hooked on nicotine. There is also the worry about the unknown harms that vapes cause to their bodies and their health. The sooner that we can change all of that the better.

I also have a personal gripe: vapes being advertised via sports. There is no reason for that—no justification at all. Yes, I am looking at Blackburn Rovers among others. When I raised the matter previously, Blackburn Rovers, based in the vaping capital of the UK, said:

“At no point during our long-standing relationship has the idea that the Totally Wicked brand might appeal disproportionately to children been raised, and we have seen no evidence to suggest that our sponsorship has encouraged an uptake of vaping among children.”

Well, I am raising it, and raising it again. I urge all sports clubs—because there are others—to have serious thought on this. We want to see our sporting heroes as positive influences on our young people and their health and wellbeing.

To be clear, I support measures to help people stop smoking. It is hard to do and all help is welcome, but that help does not come in the form of candy-coloured, candy-flavoured, pocket money-priced disposable vapes. Let us deal seriously with smoking cessation. Let us deal seriously with the terrible harms caused to our young people by disposable vapes, and let us have the backbone to take the chance now to stop smoking killing so many of our loved ones.

I wish to end by reflecting on the words of William Roberts, chief executive of the Royal Society For Public Health, who said:

“Smoking continues to cut lives short, killing up to two in three long-term users, and placing significant strain on an already overstretched health and social care system. Protecting future generations from the dangers of tobacco is vital if we want to build a healthier future. It is vital that the Bill passes and MPs of all political stripes put prevention at the heart of public policy when it comes to protecting our health.”

I sincerely hope that we do.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I rise in support of the Government’s Bill. One of the first speakers this afternoon was my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans), who talked about his first job in respiratory medicine. My first job as a doctor was in adult respiratory medicine, too, and I spent a lot of time looking after patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, intermittent claudication and lung cancer, and that taught me that smoking causes not just premature death, but substantial, debilitating, miserable disability that can go on for many years. I therefore support the Government in doing all they can to reduce the number of smokers.

Some people have talked today about the freedom for an adult to choose to do what they want, but we already make changes to what adults can do. We already restrict their freedoms. For example, we tell adults that they must put a seatbelt on when they get in the car. They must wear a helmet when they ride a motorcycle. They cannot drink alcohol before they get in a car, and they cannot drive down the motorway at 150 mph. So we already make restrictions for people’s safety on that basis.

I do think that gradually increasing the age is inelegant, as my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, put it, and will be challenging to enforce. But the alternative—to ban smoking outright—would be difficult, because it is an addictive substance. If we banned an addictive substance overnight, we would criminalise those already addicted. By doing it in advance and gradually increasing the age, we will instead not criminalise people for being addicted, because they will not get addicted in the first place, at least in principle.

I want to focus most of my remarks on vaping. I have been campaigning on vaping for some time, because I am concerned about the snowballing number of children who are addicted to it. Indeed, last year I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill to try to ban disposable vapes, which have been the most attractive vapes to children and cause the most environmental damage. At the time, 1.3 million vapes a week were being used—it is now up to 5 million. They are almost impossible to recycle in practice because the lithium batteries are difficult to recycle, and the nicotine gets soaked into the plastic, which makes that difficult to recycle as well.

I understand the need for adults to have something to help them stop smoking, but vapes are not just a stop-smoking device; we should look at them as an alternative addiction. Earlier in my campaigning, when I spoke to the industry, I said, “What is it with all these flavours?” I was told, “Well, the thing is, if someone tries to stop smoking using nicotine gum, they use the nicotine gum—or something—as a stop-smoking device. So they go from smoking, to gum, to nothing. If we give them vapes that taste of tobacco or are bland, they go from smoking, to vaping, to nothing. If we give them cherry cola-flavoured vapes, they go from smoking, to vaping cherry cola, to vaping mango and to vaping blueberry. They remain one of our customers and continue to use our product.” The industry is trying to create a new generation of addicts to make itself billions of pounds.

I can understand why the industry wants to make the money, but the way it is doing so is, in my view, immoral. In particular, its marketing of these things at children is immoral. A grown-up may wish to have a cherry cola-flavoured vape, but he or she does not need to have a unicorn milkshake-flavoured cherry vape shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants. That is why the flavours are important, and I welcome the Government’s measures to deal with flavours, colours, shapes and packaging.

What are the risks of vaping? As others have said, education is really important on that. For our children, in the short term, its powerful addiction causes problems with concentration, with some having to leave lessons because they cannot cope until the end of a double lesson without vaping. In some cases, as we have heard, it causes chest symptoms and can cause collapse. In the long term, the simple answer is that we just do not know.

A recent University College London study showed that DNA methylation—modification of DNA—occurs in people who vape. Does that show that vaping causes cancer? No, it does not. Time will tell us that, but it suggests at least that it might. That is why we must be extremely careful with our children. Adolescents will always experiment with substances because it is in the nature of adolescence to experiment with boundaries, but we need to ensure that we take as much care of them as we possibly can.

In particular, I welcome clause 10, which will allow the provisions to be extended to other nicotine products. The industry is making billions of pounds, and it will continue trying to flex to try to keep people addicted to nicotine. We can see that today. A search on the internet shows that Tesco is selling 20 nicotine pouches for £6.50. Those tiny pouches of up to 12 mg of nicotine—about 10 cigarettes-worth—are placed under a person’s gums and will release those 10 cigarettes of nicotine over an hour. They are sold in flavours called “Ice Cool”, Bergamot Wildberry”, “Mocha” and “Elderflower”. Does the House see a pattern here? That will be the next thing, and that is why I welcome the clause, which will allow the Government to reflect, if they want, on new forms of nicotine use.

I have some questions for the Minister. The Health Act 2006 prevents smoking in enclosed public spaces, on public transport and in certain other areas. Why has that not been extended to vaping? Also, as I was walking through Westminster the other day, I saw a big red Transport for London bus advertising vaping—something I have written to Sadiq Khan about. I wonder whether the Government plan to extend vaping regulations not just to what the package looks like but to the advertising itself.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Johnson]

I will not, because I have only a minute left.

The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) mentioned the advertising at Blackburn Rovers; again, sports advertising while children are watching is not helpful.

I have a final question for the Minister. Given that this is urgent, we are seeing so many children starting vaping and we want to stop people smoking as soon as possible, why are we waiting to bring in the regulations? Why not bring them in to affect children more quickly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising those really important points. As I will come on to, we will be putting £30 million of new money each year into trading standards and our enforcement agencies to clamp down on enforcement, and we are making it illegal to sell cigarettes to anybody turning 15 this year. He asks why. It is precisely because we are trying to bring in the Bill with a decent amount of notice so that people can prepare for it, precisely to protect retailers and allow all the sectors that will be impacted to be able to prepare.

I come back to the area where I am seriously on the warpath: targeting kids who might become addicted to nicotine vapes. I went to Hackney to visit some retail shops, where I saw the vape counters right next to the sweet counters. I saw that it is absolutely not about me—it is not about trying to stop me smoking. It is about trying to get children addicted through cynical, despicable methods. Sadly, for too many kids, vapes are already an incredible marketing success. One in five children aged between 11 and 17 have now used a vape, and the number has trebled in the last three years.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way as she ploughs through all of this. I wonder whether she can share her views on the advertising of vape products on sports kits and via sports facilities.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady is aware that there is already very restrictive advertising for smoking and vaping. We are very concerned that some advertising is breaching advertising standards regulations, and I will write to retailers specifically about that.

Parents and teachers are incredibly worried about the effect that vapes are having on developing lungs and brains. The truth is that we do not yet know what the long-term impact will be on children who vape. Since I was appointed, I have done everything I can to ensure that this Bill will protect our children. The Government’s position is clear: vaping is less harmful than smoking, but if you don’t smoke, don’t vape—and children should never vape.

We will definitely make sure that people who smoke today continue to have access to vapes as a quit aid, which will absolutely not change, but we cannot replace one generation that is hooked on nicotine in cigarettes with another that is hooked on nicotine in vapes. That is why we are using this Bill to take powers to restrict flavours and packaging, and to change how vapes are displayed in shops. To reassure the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee and my right hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Sir Jake Berry), we plan to consult on that before the end of the Parliament, if practicable. The disposable vapes ban will likely take effect in April 2025—those regulations have already been published.

These are common-sense proposals that strike the right balance between helping retailers to prepare, giving sufficient notice and protecting children from getting hooked on nicotine, while at the same time supporting current smokers to quit by switching to vapes as a less harmful quit aid, supported by £138 million a year. Our approach is realistic for those who smoke now and resolute in protecting children. I am convinced that, just like banning smoking in indoor public places and raising the age of sale to 18, these measures will seem commonsensical to all of us in 10 years’ time. In decades to come, our great-grandchildren will look back and think: why on earth did they not do it sooner? I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to vote for this Bill as the biggest public intervention in history. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Cass Review

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am grateful for advance sight of the statement.

Nobody’s identity should be up for debate, and nor should it be used as a political football. Dr Cass said in her report:

“Polarisation and stifling of debate do nothing to help the young people caught in the middle of a stormy social discourse, and in the long run will also hamper the research that is essential to finding the best way of supporting them to thrive.”

That polarisation is the last thing needed by young people in accessing care, their families and the NHS staff working hard to care for them. Does the Secretary of State agree that we must all remain respectful at all times when discussing these important issues, and that decisions on this and any other type of treatment should rightly be made by clinicians, not politicians?

Dr Cass explicitly makes the point that her report is not about questioning trans identities or rolling back access to healthcare for young trans people. Indeed, supporting and improving the gender identity healthcare system for all, including children and young people, is what we should be focused on. So can the Secretary of State confirm today whether any additional funding will be made available to ensure that young trans people can access the quality healthcare they need and deserve?

Finally, on conversion practices, the Government Equalities Office said last month in an answer to a written question:

“The Government expects to deliver a draft Bill that takes account of the independent Cass review”.

Can the Secretary of State provide an update on what conversations she has had with Cabinet colleagues on how the Cass review will influence the UK Government’s legislative proposals on banning conversion practices, and when can we expect them to be published?

[Victoria Atkins]

I encourage both the Scottish National party in Scotland and Labour in Wales—health is devolved in those countries, of course—to respond as quickly as possible to the findings of the review. The hon. Lady asks whether it is Barnett-ised. For these purposes, our work to ensure that the clinics meet the needs of our population in England is not additional money. We are re-prioritising within NHS budgets to ensure that the services are spread across the country. I encourage the Scottish nationalists to prioritise the needs of their children and young people in the same way.

I would also gently make the point that, when it comes to the atmosphere of this debate, I do not believe it has been helped by the SNP’s highly controversial Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021. I note, for example, the behaviour and engagement on Twitter of very high-profile people in Scotland, and the impact that it has had when people have dared to name activists in this arena. I would also ask the Scottish Labour party to explain why it helped the SNP to pass that Act, because to me this seems to be all about the atmosphere.

Illegal Vapes

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Mark. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) for securing the debate and for the powerful way he introduced the topic.

Like the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson), I have made no secret of my lack of enthusiasm for vapes—specifically disposable vapes. I have held my own debates on the topic, and I have supported others, including the hon. Lady, so I am pleased to speak today, because we need urgent action on these things.

We have heard about smoking cessation a couple of times during the debate. Smoking cessation is absolutely important, and we should all take it very seriously, but disposable vapes are not risk-free, as has been pointed out. There are other, more useful ways of supporting smoking cessation—for instance, reusable vapes, which are not seen as attractive to young people. However we look at it, and whether they are illicit or not, disposable vapes are harmful, particularly to young people and our environment.

The environmental side of things is what first caused me to become interested in disposable vapes. That was thanks to Laura Young, better known as “Less Waste Laura”, who is a student from my constituency. Laura has worked tirelessly to rid our streets, parks and beaches of the discarded plastic, which is so familiar to us all, and the pollution that has become a torrent in recent years. These apparently disposable vapes are almost never properly disposed of; in fact, the way they are constructed means it is almost impossible to properly dispose of them even if someone wants to, which is quite unlikely, considering that this product is sold on the basis of its easily disposable nature.

It is a great pity—this is embarrassing for it—that the Labour party, propped up by the Tory party on East Renfrewshire Council, is so unwilling to support anything the SNP supports that it has, not once but twice, refused to support a motion to ban disposable vapes locally, putting the council out of step with almost every other local authority in Scotland and with the evidence of the harm that such devices do.

[Gareth Johnson]

Does the hon. Lady not accept that properly and legally produced disposable vapes provide an attractive alternative for adults to stop smoking and thereby save lives? Some companies, although this is not happening a great deal, can now almost fully recycle the components of disposable e-cigarettes. Does she accept that there is a danger that we move from illicit vapes and start targeting those that would be welcome for adult smokers to switch to?

[Kirsten Oswald]

No, I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s proposition at all. That is absolutely wrong-headed. We can see in front of our eyes that these products are so attractive to young people that they are hooking them in—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is mumbling from his chair. If I can finish my speech, I will set out for him that these products are hooking young people in and getting them addicted, and some of these young people then go on to start smoking. That is far from the situation he laid out, and we should take a very serious attitude to these products.

I have spoken about the harms caused by legal vapes to the planet, whether it is plastic, overuse of precious metals or fires. We have heard today about the impact that these substances have on the young people who ingest them, which should be of significant concern to us. Vaping is popular among young people. Since 2021, there has been a more than sevenfold increase in the number of 11 to 17-year-olds vaping and using disposable vapes rather than reusable ones. These devices are colourful and attractive, with snazzy names and fruity flavours. Vaping has risen so rapidly among children that one in five are now using disposable vapes.

We are not speaking about a smoking cessation mechanism. We are speaking about something that health professionals increasingly warn about. They are increasingly worried about a generation of young people who are hooked on nicotine. As the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health has said:

“Youth vaping is fast becoming an epidemic”.

Despite all that, and despite the fact that the public would be concerned to know all these things, we have this stream of illicit, and other, vapes on our streets. We know that local shops are the most likely source for young people to come by them, and we have heard quite a lot about that today. There is also the online space, which is a source of significant concern to me. Unregulated and untested products are coming via the online space, and we have no idea what harms will be caused to the young people consuming them.

I met a business owner from my area last week, and she talked me through her concerns about illegal medical products—obviously not proper medical products. She showed me how she was targeted by online accounts pushing these goods to her. She is a responsible professional and she resisted, but let us be clear that there are many and complex routes by which these illicit vapes arrive here, just as there are for illicit medical products. All those routes need to be closed down, and they need to be closed down now. Whatever the disposable vape, it causes harm.

We know that there are significant kinds of harm being caused with the flavours and the colours. We have heard from the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart) about the worries that Action on Smoking and Health spoke about. We are hearing more and more about vape use being glamourised online, and when people under the legal age cannot purchase vapes legally, they are purchasing them illegally or purchasing illegal ones.

The public health messaging on this issue is not as clear as it should be. The hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) tried to tell me that vapes would be a perfectly reasonable way to expect adults to support themselves in smoking cessation, but that is not right and that should not be what the public health messaging tells us. We heard from the hon. Member for Darlington that vapes are a gateway to other, sometimes very serious, concerns and to riskier behaviour, such as smoking and substance abuse. He eloquently outlined the even greater and more significant harms that can be caused.

These things are arriving in huge numbers. I am grateful to the Advertising Standards Authority, which met with me after the most recent vape-related debate I spoke in. It is doing significant work trying to uphold the ban on advertising in various places, including on social media, of nicotine-containing cigarettes that are not licensed as medicines. None the less, Members may have seen adverts that would cause them to think that was not the case, and that is part of this torrent and this pushing of vapes, which needs our urgent attention.

Indeed, vapes need attention across the world. Let us be clear that the scale of the problem and the potential harms to young people and the planet should cause us deep worry. I read a really interesting piece by Chris Kirkham from Reuters last month about the owners of Elf Bar, which is a company with roots in China. Elf Bar products are very popular here, and the company is now, according to Reuters, flooding the US with illegal vapes—ones not covered by Food and Drug Administration regulations.

[Peter Gibson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am going to make progress, but if I have time, I would be happy to let the hon. Gentleman come in later.

Elf Bar is simply ignoring those regulations to get its products to market. In the UK, it is taking a different approach and complying with regulations so that it can—one presumes—sell the maximum number of its products. That means that we need different regulations that will stop the surge in young people vaping. Of course, if we banned all disposable vapes, it would be far easier to identify the illicit ones, because all vapes would be illicit. It is far better that we close down the distributors and that we do so in a wholehearted way.

I have spoken before about my own concerns about sports advertising of vapes. I spoke about Blackburn Rovers, and a 15-year-old footballer, who came on as a substitute in their FA cup win recently, made history as their youngest ever player. However, his shirt did not have the club sponsor, Totally Wicked, on it. Blackburn Rovers said that, as the legal vaping age in the UK is 18, under-18s cannot wear that logo—but they can still see it, because it is displayed on everyone else’s strip. We would not want tobacco companies advertising on sports strips. We would not want whisky, beer or cider companies on sports strips. None of those things should be acceptable to us, and advertising for vapes should not be acceptable to us either. If we are serious about dealing with the harms that young people experience because of vaping, we should expect sports clubs to take that seriously too. The claims by both Blackburn Rovers and Totally Wicked at the time that vaping had a positive and proven role in supporting the reduction of smoking are simply not credible when we think of the young people who are interested in football.

I will bring my remarks to a conclusion. I noticed recently that some vaping companies are actually going out and looking for sportspeople to sponsor. I think that is hugely dangerous and hugely unwelcome. I ask the Minister to give us some of her thoughts on that matter in her response.

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

Order. I am conscious of the fact that there may be a vote shortly. Have you finished?

[Kirsten Oswald]

Well, I have now.

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

Okay. There may be a vote so I may have to suspend proceedings. I call Preet Kaur Gill.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship today, Sir Mark. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson), and all my hon. Friends who are here today. It highlights the importance with which the Government Benches view this issue.

I would just assure the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) that all of the issues that she has mentioned are indeed top priorities for me. I am on the warpath when it comes to children vaping. Whether it is nicotine-free, cherry-cola flavoured, legal or illegal, children should not be vaping. I will bring forward, as soon as possible, the results of the consultation, and then the smoking legislation, and all colleagues will be able to see that. However, I pay tribute to all my hon. Friends, who are here in droves in this Chamber today to make known their very serious concerns about the protection of children. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), who has done so much to try and promote this issue and to ensure that children are kept safe.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to talk about the work that we are doing to tackle the use and sale specifically of illicit vapes, and I am grateful to all colleagues for this being largely a cross-party issue, where we are all on the same side, and I very much hope that we will keep it that way. Like so many parents right across the country, we are all incredibly worried about the damage that is potentially being done to children’s bodies by vapes—particularly illegal vapes.

One of the main health risks posed by vapes is from their highly addictive nicotine content. Young brains are more susceptible to the effects of nicotine, and so the risk of becoming addicted is greater for younger people compared to adults.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I will not give way, I am sorry; there is no time left and I want to make my points.

It is appalling and unacceptable when businesses knowingly and deliberately encourage children to use a product that was designed for adults to quit smoking. Often sold at pocket-money prices, easy to use and widely available, disposable vapes are the product of choice for children. Over two thirds of current youth vapers use disposable products—all illegally, because they are under age. And, as if we needed another reason to regulate, 5 million disposable vapes are either littered or thrown away in general waste every week. That has quadrupled over the last year.

Our duty is clear: to protect all kids from vaping while their lungs and brains are still developing. Businesses are shamelessly using bright colours, alluring packaging and attractive flavours, as hon. Friends and colleagues have said, like “candy bubblegum” and “blueberry razz”, in Coke-can shaped packaging, right next to the sweet counter, in the full knowledge that our children are going to become addicted to nicotine. This cannot go on.

Businesses should abide by the existing regulations setting product standards, including prohibitions on certain ingredients and restrictions on nicotine strength, bottle size limits and advertising. Products should be registered with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency to be sold legally in the UK. Any product that is not notified and does not meet our high standards should not be sold to anyone, let alone children.

Unregulated vapes pose a massive risk because they circumvent the high standards of regulation, contain unknown ingredients, as colleagues across the Chamber have said, and stronger nicotine, and are often made available to children through black-market channels. Illicit vapes may contain dangerous metals such as lead, nickel and chromium, and contents such as antifreeze and poster varnish—unbelievable, extraordinary contents. We have no idea what frequent inhalation of those does to adult lungs, let alone still-developing lungs.

Independent research suggests that there is a direct link between the rise in children vaping and the flood of illegal, non-compliant vapes coming to our shores. That is why, to keep vapes out of our children’s hands, we must first enforce our regulations to stamp out the sale and supply of illicit and underage vapes, and, secondly, educate our children about how those products will hurt them.

On enforcement, we have learned much from our successful campaign to tackle illicit tobacco. Targeted enforcement saw the overall consumption of illegal tobacco plummet from 17 billion cigarettes 25 years ago to 3 billion cigarettes last year. In April, building on this success, we announced the formation of a new, specialised illicit vaping enforcement team, named Operation Joseph, to identify and seize illicit vapes on entry to England through the seven ports that have seen increased illegal activity. We are giving National Trading Standards £3 million of new funding over two years for the sole purpose of getting illicit products off our shelves. Across the country, it is diligently testing products for dangerous substances, and carrying out test purchases online and in shops. Recently, I had the great pleasure of meeting some of its officers in action—people such as David Hunt, a senior officer and illicit tobacco lead in Hackney, who is doing incredible work to ensure there is a fair and honest market. As a result of National Trading Standards’ work across the country, 2.1 million vapes were seized by trading standards officers in England between 2022 and 2023 alone.

My message to people and businesses that sell illegal vapes is clear: they should stop it right now. If they do not, they may receive an unlimited fine or a custodial sentence of up to two years. However, there is no room for complacency, and I am not naive to the scale of the challenge. That is why in October we announced an additional £30 million per year for our enforcement agencies over the next five years, to support their efforts to extinguish the illicit trade in tobacco and vapes. The additional funding will give agencies the resources they need to catch criminals and rogue traders.

Cracking down on illicit products entering the country is critical, but such efforts must go hand in hand with educating children about the dangers of these products to prevent their use in the first place. Over the past two years, we have taken a number of steps to increase the training resources and support available to teachers in schools, to update the curriculum to include the health risks of vaping, and to publish new online content on the potential risks of vaping for young people. We have also written to police forces right across England to ensure that dedicated school liaison officers are keeping vapes away from the playground as much as possible.

Finally, I want to touch briefly on our wider plans to reduce the overall rates of youth vaping. As I said at the start, I will set out much more detail in the near future. As colleagues know, we recently consulted on a range of measures to reduce the appeal, availability and affordability of vapes to children. Our consultation has also considered what further measures we could take to strengthen enforcement, such as by introducing new fixed penalty notices. We are in the process of finalising our response to the consultation and will update Parliament shortly on the measures we are taking forward.

As I said at the start of my remarks, we all have a duty to protect our children from under-age vaping as their lungs and brains continue to develop. We do not yet know about the long-term damage being caused to their lungs and brains, but I dread to think about it, so we will be ruthless towards those who disregard our safeguards and undermine our work to protect children’s health. I am on the warpath where vaping is concerned, and I urge all children to stop vaping. I look forward to working with colleagues across parties and across Government to make youth vaping a thing of the past.

Crohn’s and Colitis Awareness Week

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hannah Bardell]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on the work that has been done in Upper Bann, and perhaps there are lessons that can be learned by all Governments across the UK. Incontinence can cause considerable anxiety. I often talk to my brother about what is worse now. Although a flare up can be seriously debilitating, the day-to-day anxiety never goes away and is always with those who suffer.

What is more, some Crohn’s and colitis sufferers have stoma bags, meaning that not only do they need to find a toilet, but they need to find one that has enough space for them to change and dispose of equipment comfortably, hygienically and in privacy. There was recently an excellent event in Parliament for International Men’s Day that talked about the need for sanitary bins in men’s toilets, which is incredibly important. Men often suffer from incontinence, and they certainly suffer from Crohn’s and colitis, so making sure that all toilets have such safe and sanitary facilities is crucial. I am not sure whether that would require an Act of Parliament, but it strikes me that it would have support across the House, because the fear of incontinence or being unable to locate a toilet can lead to a breakdown in mental wellbeing and social isolation through people choosing simply not to leave their home. We have all been there. We have all had a sickness, a bug or an upset tummy and either nearly not made it or not made it. Imagine that being your life every single day.

Many living with Crohn’s and colitis will understand, and I hope they will hear, these calls. A key thing we have heard about time and again is the social security system, because less than 3% of people living with Crohn’s and colitis are in receipt of personal independence payment. Four in five are denied the support they need. Words like “battling” and “fighting” are often used to describe the experience of those applying for PIP. I recently spoke to someone who talked about how degrading they felt the system is, and that was somebody who is chronically ill and often cannot leave the house. For them to be scared of going through a system that is supposed to be a safety net is utterly appalling, and I hope the Minister will hear that and talk more about how the social security system can support people with Crohn’s and colitis.

The current benefit system defines disability as a permanent and substantial impairment, or a long-term health condition that is likely to degenerate. Those I have given examples from, those we have taken evidence from and those who will be watching at home tonight—no one can tell me that their condition is not long term. There is little recognition of fluctuating health conditions, and fluctuating health conditions are not just Crohn’s and colitis. There are many other conditions, so we have to have a system that is designed to support all those people.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech, and I hope that the Minister hears the points she is making. One thing that constituents consistently raise with me about Crohn’s and colitis is the impact of benefit assessors’ lack of awareness of the impact and fluctuating nature of the conditions, which my hon .Friend has been describing, and the need to end informal assessment in the personal independence payment process. Does she share their concerns about those points?

[Hannah Bardell]

I absolutely do. It is fortuitous that my hon. Friend raises that issue, because the statistics tell us that only one in two people score points under the toileting needs and continence descriptor, despite the severity of the symptom on everyday life. The fact that three in four people with Crohn’s and colitis will experience it just shows how profound the issue is.

I wish to highlight that the Scottish Government are reforming flexible disability assessment for fluctuating diseases. That is good news for people in Scotland, but what about people across the rest of the UK? The Scottish Government are consulting people with lived experiences on the mobility component of their adult disability payment. That includes researching the impact of moving around, planning and following journeys for those with fluctuating conditions. The adult disability payment differs from PIP, as it intends to get decisions right first time by trusting what people tell Social Security Scotland. Time and again, I have heard from people who have been through the assessment process for PIP and have been undermined and scared. I know people who have just not gone there, including some constituents who have come to see me; they do not want to go through the process, because they are so scared of it. We must move away from that. Treating people with dignity, fairness and respect is at the heart of delivering the adult disability payment.

I have highlighted just some of the impact that Crohn’s and colitis has on people’s lives. It is vital that we invest in developing a national primary care diagnostic pathway for lower gastrointestinal conditions, as my hon. Friend suggested, destigmatise IBD symptoms and create a benefits system that supports people with all types of disabilities. Just as the Crohn’s and Colitis UK campaign says, it is time to cut the crap and give greater awareness about IBD and those who suffer from this terrible life-limiting disease. We have an opportunity to do something really good: to give those who suffer from these terrible diseases an opportunity to take their full role in their communities and do jobs that they may otherwise be unable to do if they do not get that diagnosis and that support as early as possible.

I hope the Minister has heard what we have said, and heard the experiences of our constituents and those close to us. I look forward to his contribution.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

Not only am I delighted to accept my hon. Friend’s kind invitation, but I am also extremely grateful for her work in that area. Of course, we think that community diagnostic centres are an important and exciting part of healthcare in this country. We have 136 centres operational at the moment, and we know that they have provided 5 million additional tests since July 2021. That is the future and we very much support it.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

We know that socioeconomic inequalities drive health inequalities and that poverty increases adverse health effects. Research by the Trussell Trust shows that one in seven people faces hunger across the UK because they simply do not have enough money. Will the Secretary of State raise with her Cabinet colleagues the Trussell Trust joint campaign with the Joseph Rowntree Foundation calling for an essentials guarantee in universal credit to ensure that the basic rate at least covers life’s essentials so as to ensure that people can afford essentials such as food and heating and to mitigate against health inequalities?

[Victoria Atkins]

Of course, conversations continue between Ministers across Government in terms of helping not just with health inequalities but with inequality of opportunity. That is why I very much hope that the hon. Lady and her colleagues will welcome the thoughtful focus that both the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions have put into the back to work plan. We know that getting people into work can have enormous benefits, not just financially but, importantly, for their wellbeing. The idea behind the back to work plan is that we do it by working with people to draw out their full potential and help them to lead healthy lives.

Under-age Vaping

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is very welcome that we are here today. There is surely nobody in this place who thinks that we should not be working to protect children and young people from the health harms of vaping. The SNP absolutely supports the motion that we are discussing today. I am also very glad that the SNP Scottish Government are taking this issue seriously, too. They are looking at tighter restrictions on vaping advertising and promotion, they have a tobacco action plan being published later this year, and an urgent review is under way of the environmental impacts. Certainly, the management of single-use vapes is something that significantly concerns me. The potential policy responses could include a ban—on a personal note, I sincerely hope that that is what happens.

I have been in a number of these debates and, usually, comments are made about smoking cessation. Just to be clear: I am very supportive of all measures that allow people to be supported to stop smoking. Reusable vapes are a potential option. My concerns are very significantly around disposable vapes, but we should look at this issue as broadly as possible. Countries around the world are already doing that. In Argentina, Japan and Thailand, there is a complete ban on e-cigarettes. In the Netherlands, production stopped on 1 July and sales will end on 1 October. China, which is the main exporter of these vapes worldwide, has itself banned the sale of flavoured e-cigarettes. As things stand, there are 35 countries, which covers around 41% of the world population, where e-cigarettes have been banned.

One of the reasons why I became interested in this issue was that a constituent of mine, Laura Young, drew it to my attention. She said that whenever she was out walking with her dog she saw these disposables discarded everywhere. Of course, once she said that to me, I could no longer walk anywhere without finding disposable vapes myself. They are everywhere. It is an incredible amount of litter. They are on streets, on beaches, and in our schools, as we have heard. I found one in the loo in Portcullis House yesterday. They are described as disposables, but these things, which are being thrown away so casually, are not disposable; they contain plastic waste, and rare and potentially harmful elements including lithium.

[Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)]

I am greatly relieved that my hon. Friend has touched on the environmental consequences. I realise that the motion is about children and vaping, and I think there is scarce evidence that there is anything other than harm available to children from vaping, in terms of their respiratory and oral health. Quite apart from that, the clue is in the title: disposable vapes. Only 30% of the million or so that are consumed in the United Kingdom every week are recycled, and those that are dumped are littering our communities and environment with their heating elements, lithium batteries and plastic packaging. Those that end up in landfill contribute significantly to the 250 fires a year at landfill sites. There is literally nothing to recommend these abhorrent products, so why does she think that the Tory Government are dithering in this way?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and am delighted that he is as enraged as I am about the harm that these products are causing. I know that in his community people are equally as concerned as in mine. His comment bears reflecting upon, because how realistic is it that children will find ways to recycle this disposable product, or so-called disposable product, which is undoubtedly targeted at children, given that they are probably hiding it from their parents in the first place? There are no positive grounds for keeping these things about. I secured a debate last year focusing on the environmental impact, which bears reflecting on. My hon. Friend is right, so I am glad that he made the points that he did.

I am also deeply concerned about the impact on children and young people, because these vapes are so available, so inviting, and so increasingly used by younger people. I am particularly concerned about under-18s. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), who opened the debate very powerfully, talked about the Health and Social Care Committee having heard from a headteacher about the significant proportion of children vaping regularly. If we speak to headteachers in any of our constituencies, they will say the same thing. I was also alarmed, though unfortunately not surprised, to hear him highlight issues of primary-aged children vaping. That is terrifying. It is why today’s motion needs to be taken seriously.

The Advertising Standards Authority says that

“adverts for e-cigarettes must be targeted responsibly”.

I am not sure that that is what is happening. Such ads must, apparently,

“not be directed at under-18s”.

Again, the ASA has a job of work to do there. I wonder, although I suspect that it is perhaps unable to, whether it would want to look at issues such as sports advertising. Blackburn Rovers—other teams may do this, but this is the only team that I am aware of that are doing it—are being sponsored by a vaping retailer, Totally Wicked, for the sixth season in a row. We would find it unacceptable if our football club came out with cigarette branding on their shirts. I cannot understand why it is any more acceptable for a football club to come out with vaping advertising. I am keen for the Minister, or Government Members, to address that.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Would the hon. Lady be similarly outraged to know that the same company supports St Helens rugby football club, and called the stadium Totally Wicked?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I would be equally outraged. I know how much work the hon. Lady does in this regard. I am unsurprised to find that we are both enraged by the same thing. This is really unacceptable. If we are serious about dealing with the harms to children and young people, we really should expect sports clubs to be somewhere that they can see positive imagery and have positive influences. I recently visited a vaping shop near to where I live. I know they are sold in other outlets too, in corner shops and supermarkets, on Amazon and eBay, and we have heard about them being sold in a barbershop as well. They are not difficult to find, and they are so inviting. When I went into the shop, it looked lovely: the display was beautiful, with nice colours and names and all kinds of fancy shapes that looked like highlighters or lipsticks. I have seen some online that look like brightly coloured fidget spinners. These things are quite enticing, are they not? They are very attractive, and that is obviously deliberate.

I was interested to hear about the King’s College study on plain packaging, because anything that makes vapes less attractive to young people is obviously worth considering. I say that for many reasons, one being that I heard recently about young people purchasing disposable vapes to match their outfits. I must say that that had never occurred to me before, but why not? If they are purchasing them, they might want them to match their outfits, just as they might think about what flavour they would like, such as bubblegum or grape soda. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish talked about them looking like an old-fashioned sweet shop, and he was right about that.

Disposable vapes are designed to be enticing, to draw young people in. They are throwaway and they are affordable. The right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) was absolutely right to describe them as pocket-money purchases. Parents will not always know what their children are purchasing with pocket money; presumably children throw disposable vapes away, as I have said, before the parents find them. As parents, we have no idea whether our children are using them. I hope mine are not, but none of us can know that, because they are so easy to find and so easy to throw away that we must be alive to the fact that we might not have the full picture.

Presumably we cannot all have the full picture, because, if we look at the statistics, in a recent YouGov/ASH survey the proportion of children aged between 11 and 17 who vape has gone up from 4% in 2020 to 7% in 2022, and the proportion of children who have tried vaping overall is now sitting at 16%. We have heard significantly higher figures than that cited in this debate.

I think it is reasonable to look for disposable vapes to be removed from sale. That is certainly what I would like to see. I am pleased to hear calls for retailers to ban single-use vapes in Scotland, where environmental and health charities have joined forces to call for an end to the sale of disposable vapes. Groups such as Keep Scotland Beautiful, ASH Scotland and the Marine Conservation Society are urging retailers to follow the good example of Waitrose, who I take my hat off to here, in banning the sale of those single-use products.

Waitrose did that because of reports suggesting that their popularity was soaring among people who had not previously smoked, as we have heard already, including the younger generation. It is really important that we examine the subject. I am pleased about the Scottish Government’s action in that regard and I echo Barry Fisher, the chief executive of Keep Scotland Beautiful, who also talks about a “litter emergency” and emphasises that the time to act is now.

The time to act is now also on the illicit vapes we have heard about already—the dodgy vapes and the chemicals within them. Lab research shows that they have up to twice the daily safe amount of lead and nine times the daily safe amount of nickel. There is also chromium in there. We do not want our children to be ingesting those substances, and those studies are based only on some vapes confiscated from a school in England, so we do not know what else is out there; we just know it should not be. Dodgy vapes have deeply concerning health impacts. In Scotland, there have been reports of illegal vapes confiscated from a school that left children coughing up blood. Which of us wants that for our children? We need to act.

It is deeply concerning—and that is before we even get into the notion of young people who have never previously smoked using disposable vapes and then graduating on to smoking cigarettes. We know that is an issue. The producers of vapes would have us believe they were intended to rectify and remedy that very problem, but it turns out to be the opposite that happens. The World Health Organisation has expressed significant concern about that, stating that children who use such products are three times more likely to use tobacco products in the future. If the Minister is looking for evidence, that is the kind of statistic he ought to bear in mind.

Huge profits are being made on the back of all those sales of vapes to children. Big business is being done here, but it is not always being done by the rules. The most popular brand for children is Elfbar, but in July an Observer investigation found that Elfbar had flouted the rules to promote its products to young people in the UK. Advertising videos and promotions on TikTok, for instance, were felt to be of concern. Some of those videos attracted hundreds of thousands of views, on a platform that is used by three quarters of 16 and 17-year-olds.

We have already heard about children’s doctors calling for a complete ban on disposable vapes. The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson), who is herself a children’s doctor, has spoken out about that. If we will not listen to the views of children’s doctors about the impact of vapes on children’s health, who will we listen to?

I am heartened that Humza Yousaf, our First Minister, says that a ban on disposable vapes is under consideration, and by the incredible hard work being done by the campaign group ASH, which absolutely deserves our thanks. I also thank the organisers of the TRNSMT festival, which took place in Glasgow last weekend, because they did not permit disposable vapes there, and I absolutely applaud them for that.

Less positively, however, I cannot thank the administration of East Renfrewshire Council, which is where I live. The motion, which I think is a good one, includes a passage about working with councils, and that is absolutely right. Of the 32 councils in Scotland, 28 supported motions calling for a ban on disposable vapes. Regrettably, East Renfrewshire Council was not one of them. It did not support the ban, seemingly because a ban was supported by the SNP. I am really unimpressed by that. It is a poor show from that Labour Administration and their Conservative enablers that they could not bring themselves in step with the whole of the rest of the country and, I suspect, with the Members who are present in the debate. That seems somewhat ironic given the motion that is before the House. I hope that they will reflect on that and change their mind, and that we will get a full set of councils to support the ban—although the numbers so far are pretty impressive.

I hope that the Scottish Government come to the conclusion that these things are too dangerous and damaging, although I am grateful for their sterling work so far. I hope that the UK Government will listen to what is being said to them. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Dave Doogan), I was not entirely convinced that a huge degree of listening was going on, but I hope that I am wrong about that and that we will hear about a very serious focus on the matter. The industry will not take the steps that are needed; politicians need to do that. Disposable vapes are a danger to the environment and to our young people. It is high time that we took them off the shelf.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

As the Chair of said Committee, I am very conscious of the importance of these issues, and I am pleased to see them debated in the House. I welcome the debate, but anywhere I have seen this issue debated, including in my cross-party Select Committee—many of its members are here—I do not see an awful lot of politics in it. I have a lot of time for the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), but I thought that he was uncharacteristically partisan in his remarks—a Labour Government this and a Tory Government that. I thought that that was misplaced, but maybe that’s just me.

Our Committee heard from the chief medical officer back in February at the start of our major inquiry on prevention. Professor Whitty highlighted then what he called “an appalling situation” whereby vaping, which he described as

“an addictive product with…unknown consequences for developing minds”,

is being marketed to children. I absolutely agree with him that that is totally unacceptable and out of control. As a parent of secondary school-age children, I see, hear and read letters home about the subject in a way that I never imagined I would only a couple of years ago, let alone when I started in this House 13 years ago.

Professor Whitty noted that

“rates of vaping have doubled in the last couple of years among children”,

which is consistent with what we are all hearing as constituency MPs. That situation cannot be allowed to continue, which is why I agree with the part of the Opposition’s motion that calls for plain packaging for vaping. The record will show that I most certainly did not vote against new clause 4 to the Health and Care Act, tabled by the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy), in November 2021. I support that part of the motion—it is consistent and in line with what happens for cigarettes. I do not think anybody would argue that we should go back to the days of the Marlboro Man and branding on cigarette packets, so I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to take that point away.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way as he is getting into the meat of his speech. Does he share my concerns about the impact that advertising on sports kits could have on any attempts to bring down the number of children vaping?

[Steve Brine]

Yes, I do. I suspect that point may be raised later in the debate by one of my fellow Committee members, if she catches your eye, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Blackburn Rovers issue has been raised, and it is not a historical sports deal, either: some may think that it was something that happened last season, but they have renewed it for the new season, which in my opinion is the opposite of “totally wicked”. I have young children who use that expression, and I can see why that would be attractive to a company wishing for Blackburn Rovers to carry its advertising on their shirts—I can only think that is the company’s motivation. I would ask Blackburn Rovers to look themselves in the mirror about that deal as much as the company that is doing the advertising, because it takes two to tango. Yes, I am concerned about that.

A couple of weeks ago, the Health Committee held one of our topical oral evidence sessions on youth vaping. We did so because we are very concerned about increasing media reports of children taking up vaping, as well as what we are hearing in the House and from our own constituents. During that evidence session, we heard from representatives from the health policy world and the medical and education sectors about the impact of the rising trend in child vaping. As was mentioned by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish, we heard directly from a headteacher from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson)—a fellow Committee member—about the disruption that vaping is causing in her school. She did indeed talk about the impact on education of students vaping in the toilets and setting off the fire alarms.

We heard about the cost associated with putting heat sensors on top of fire alarm sensors—teachers have got enough to be doing! We heard about the disruption, which has an impact on education. During exam season recently, there were examples of exams being impacted by alarms being set off. As the headteacher told us,

“I became really concerned about interruptions to the exam season, so I had to change the smoke sensors to heat sensors really quickly to prevent us being in and out while students were sitting GCSEs and A-levels.”

That beggars belief. Young people have suffered enough in the past few years, their education has been disrupted enough, and now this—an epidemic of vaping that we are allowing to happen.

I raised the same point with the children’s doctor who gave evidence to the Select Committee. The issue of toileting in schools has wider impacts than just the disruption of education: children do not want to use the toilets, because they do not want to walk into an environment where people are vaping. They are worried about that, so toilets have become off-limits places. There is a much wider issue around toileting in schools and schools closing toilets. There is a very good charity called ERIC that works in the area of children’s bowel and bladder health, and without getting into too much detail, there is an impact on the retentiveness of children who do not use the toilet when they are at school. That can have serious medical implications, so once again, it beggars belief that we find ourselves in this situation because of vaping.

In my opinion, the industry has not gone anywhere near far enough in ensuring that its products do not appeal to the young demographic, and it is disingenuous for it to claim otherwise. Shops are able to display wide ranges of vapes in colourful, flavoured varieties and in locations that do not usually sell similar products: for example, we heard about vapes being sold in chicken shops and pound shops. That is in sharp contrast to tobacco products, which must be locked away and packaged in standardised plain packaging containing health warnings.

Evidence given to us by ASH from its surveys shows that flavour is a reason but not the main reason why young people who have never smoked start vaping. The most common reason for trying vaping among young never smokers is “just to give it a try”, at 54%, followed by “other people use them so I join in”, at 18%, and then there is “I like the flavours”, at just 12%. It is worth putting that statistic on the record, because there was a bit of a debate earlier between those on the Front Benches about flavours.

I have a few other points. Vapes are an age-controlled product; it is not legal for people under the age of 18 to buy them. There are a number of ways that young people obtain vapes anyway—for example, through the lack of age verification in shops or by buying them from other sellers who are often older teenagers who buy in bulk to sell them on, sometimes in school settings. I know schools take a very tough line on that, and rightly so, but teachers have better things to do than play trading standards officers on campus. We are particularly concerned in the Select Committee about online ordering, which is an area I think would benefit from more Government attention in order to avoid the law being circumvented. Overall, there is a need for much better enforcement of the law on not selling the products to under-18s. It is crucial that trading standards officers tackle non-compliant vendors, and of course are resourced to do so. I know the Minister is seized of that, and he rightly put that in his recent tobacco plan. I say tobacco plan, but I mean the tobacco strategy; as someone who has written a tobacco control plan, I was careful about using that word.

Price is another important issue, particularly the price of disposable vapes, as others have mentioned. They are much cheaper than tobacco products—much cheaper—in part because they are not subject to the same levels of excise duty. I understand that that is clearly not a matter for the Minister on the Front Bench, but maybe he could take that up with his Treasury colleagues. ASH told us that there is evidence that children are highly price-sensitive when it comes to buying these products, and that adding an excise charge of £5 on the battery, which is what we have often heard about, would act as a significant deterrent.

There are a lot of young people in the Gallery, and I wonder what they are thinking listening to this debate. I would urge right hon. and hon. Members to talk to young people, as I am sure we all do, either in their own homes or in the schools in our constituencies, and to ask them their motivation for vaping and what story they know about vaping, because their stories are interesting. I dropped into a vape shop in my constituency just the other day. I made a full disclosure: I told them who I was and that I chair the Health and Social Care Committee. High street vape shops are often very responsible in what they do, and this shop was very clear about how it approaches young people who come in. It told me about a product that basically looked like a bag of Skittles—other nice sweets are available. Skittles took the producer to court and the producer then had to withdraw that product. It does not take a genius to understand why someone might want to brand a vape to look like a bag of Skittles. Popping into vape shops and talking to them about how they do their business is time well spent on a constituency Friday.

To conclude, I have so many serious concerns about disposable vapes and the way they are marketed to children. However, I have to say that I do not support a total ban because, as ASH told the Select Committee in evidence, they can play an important part in helping people to quit smoking. We have to be very careful about a broad-brush ban, but the Government need to step forward even more than they already have, and this debate may help the Minister to form his views. I know he is personally very seized of this issue; he has spoken to me about it on a number of occasions.

The Government need to stay on this issue as an urgent case. A number of friends who also have children at secondary school have asked me, “What are the Government doing about this?” because they know what I do. The concern out there in parent land is growing by the day, and we parents are concerned—very concerned—about this. We on the Select Committee are also very concerned about it, and we will be writing to the Minister and the Secretary of State off the back of our session a couple of weeks ago to set out some of our concerns and some of the recommendations we may make. I hope the Government will take that on board, and come back to us promptly as part of the ongoing consultation the Minister has told us about.

I agree with some of the interventions that have been made. The Khan review was commissioned by the Government and it is a robust piece of work containing with lots of evidence. There is an awful lot to be seized of. I appreciate that it is challenging to get grid slots and get stuff through No.10, but the Prime Minister has personally identified himself with this issue and is concerned about it. I therefore say to the Minister that in that regard he would be pushing at an open door if he banged on a black door with a No.10 on it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I thank the Labour Front-Bench team for a great choice of debate today. I thank, too, all those Members who have made nice comments about me today. I agree with the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), who said that it is a shame to see children’s health being made a party political issue, because surely everybody in this House, from every party, wants children’s health to be as good as possible. In that vein I declare an interest as both a consultant paediatrician and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

I was pleased to see the shadow Minister talk about Laranya Caslin, the headteacher of St George’s Academy in Sleaford, who spoke so eloquently at the Select Committee about her experiences of children vaping in her school. Let me reflect on some of the things that she said. She said that there was heavy peer pressure in school encouraging children to vape. She said that vaping was seen to be cool and that children had to vape to feel that they were part of the in-group. She also talked about how it has a higher burden of addiction. She said that, sometimes, children would go out at break time to have a cigarette, or to share a cigarette with friends, but now they vape not just during break times but need to top up during lessons. That continual top-up is something that we see in Parliament, too. Yesterday, while eating in the Tea Room, a Member of the House was vaping at the table. It must be said that we did have quite a long session of votes yesterday. During voting, in the Labour Members’ cloakroom, a Member of the Opposition Front Bench was sat vaping. We are seeing people topping up anywhere and everywhere it would seem, and that is something that I would like to see stop.

As many Members have mentioned, the flavours and colours of vapes are very child-friendly: there are even unicorn flavours, which I struggle to believe are directed at teenagers, never mind adults. My 12-year-old would not thank you for anything with a unicorn on, because that is very much for younger children. Indeed, we saw in the Healthwatch survey that 11% of 10 and 11-year-olds are already vaping. That grew to 42.4% of 16 to 17-year-olds, with a gradual increase during the teenage years. Laranya Caslin also told us that flavours are important to the peer pressure on children to vape. She talked about how children would discuss, “Have you tried the cherry cola? Have you tried the unicorn milkshake? Have you tried the green gummy bear?” It is the flavours that enable that discussion to take place among peers, which encourages children.

I asked the industry representative, “Why do you need these flavours? Why can’t you make them basic mint flavour, no flavour at all, or tobacco flavour?” He said that when people smoke they lose their sense of taste to an extent. Indeed, the NHS website says that one of the benefits of stopping smoking is that after 48 hours a sense of taste will start to return. What the industry has found, it told me, is that if it has tobacco or plain flavoured vapes, people will move off smoking on to the vape, but when their tastebuds return they will not like the vape anymore and will discontinue their vape use. That is of course what we want them to do, but it is perhaps not what the industry wants them to do. Making it cherry cola flavoured, bubble gum flavoured, or whatever flavour the person likes to inhale means that they will continue to be addicted to that product and continue to use it. I encourage the Minister to consider that when she considers banning flavours, or which flavours should be allowed to be used.

The ten-minute rule Bill that I introduced on 8 February this year would have banned disposables. I understand that the Minister has challenges in defining a disposable in a way that the industry, which has such a heavy financial interest in the product, cannot get around and make the legislation weak quickly. I look for an update in how that is going, but 1.3 million are disposed of every week. We have heard already about the fires that they can cause, and the fact that most of them are not recycled. I understand that they are very difficult to recycle, because the nicotine salts leak into the plastic. It is not like a plastic water bottle, which can be easily recycled if it is disposed of properly. These vapes cannot be, because they become a hazardous waste, because the nicotine has leaked into the plastic itself.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The hon. Lady is making an excellent speech. Does she agree that the whole way these things are designed seems as if it is to prevent them from being recycled? They are impossible to take to bits. They contain, as she said, plastic, which is then infused with other substances. There are lithium batteries, and all manner of things. How would one possibly go about recycling that properly? I think that the answer is that one could not unless one were a specialist.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Lady is right: these things are incredibly difficult to recycle, and since 70% of children use disposable vapes, and they are the most attractive and cheapest for children to use, it is increasingly important that we ensure that they are not available. The call to ban disposables has been backed by a wide variety of people, including the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, of which I am a member, the Children’s Commissioner, and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. There is a widespread desire across all parties, and across communities, to see these products banned.

The industry said at the Select Committee that a ban will drive the industry underground and make things illicit, but as we heard from the hon. Lady earlier, that is already happening. There are already illicit vapes. When a school in my constituency confiscated five vapes and the police tested them, they found antifreeze and all sorts of products, including trichloroethylene, which was banned before I was born. All those types of products are contained in vapes already, so that cat is very much already out of the bag and should not dissuade us from getting rid of these disposable products.

We also heard on the Health and Social Care Committee about the health challenges. We hear that vapes are 95% safer than smoking. The industry continues to repeat that statistic. Where does it come from? How could anyone possibly quantify that? It comes from 2013, when a group of people who were not specifically experts in tobacco control got together and had a discussion. They then published a paper. Let me read something that was published in The Lancet at the time, which was more than 10 years ago. The editorial of The Lancet said:

“But neither PHE nor McNeill and Hajek report the caveats that Nutt and colleagues themselves emphasised in their paper. First, there was a ‘lack of hard evidence for the harms of most products on most of the criteria’. Second, ‘there was no formal criterion for the recruitment of the experts’. In other words, the opinions of a small group of individuals with no prespecified expertise in tobacco control were based on an almost total absence of evidence of harm. It is on this extraordinarily flimsy foundation that PHE based the major conclusion and message of its report.”

The Lancet also noted that

“one of the authors of the Nutt paper…reports serving as a consultant to…an e-cigarette distributor”,

and that another

“reports serving as a consultant to manufacturers of smoking cessation products.”

In the Westminster Hall debate on 29 June I asked the Minister to look further into the veracity of the claim that vaping is 95% safer, and whether, given that that study was 10 years ago, the modern evidence for that still stacks up. I look to the Minister for an update on how they are getting on with that, because we heard in the Health and Social Care Committee that there are significant health impacts for children, with eight children hospitalised from St George’s Academy in Sleaford alone.

We also heard about children being frightened to go into toilets, as the Select Committee Chair said. Some of those children were frightened to do so because they found that when they did, it triggered their asthma symptoms. Those are children who do not vape, but who have asthma and are frightened to go into the toilets because there is so much vaping vapour left in the toilets by other children that it is triggering their asthma and making them unwell. Some of these children are unable to go to the toilet all day, which leads them to have problems not only with asthma, but with urinary retention, which potentially leaves them at risk of urinary infection and incontinence issues in later life. It is for that reason that Dr Stewart from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health told us that she supported a ban on the use of vaping in public places.

I would also like the Minister to look at the use of accessories. On Etsy.com today, under the categories “girly smoking accessories” or “cute smoking accessories”, for £7.78—within the pocket money range—one can buy a teddy bear vape stand. It is a tiny teddy bear that people can stand their vape in when they are not using it. Will the Minister look at whether such items are suitable for sale, given that they are essentially there to attract children to this activity?

Moving on to advertising, we have a bizarre situation where Transport for London banned an advert for “Tony n’ Tina’s Wedding” that initially featured a picture of a three-tier wedding cake, because it would encourage people to eat fat, salt and sugar and that might drive the obesity crisis. That was on the tube, yet TfL buses have many adverts for vaping, including ones that appear to me personally to make vaping look cool and something to be aspired to.

I think TfL’s priorities are all wrong. The London Bus Advertising group states, as part of the group’s advertising to encourage people to put their adverts on the buses, that 5.8 million people would see the buses per week. I would ask those on the shadow Front Bench to use their good offices with the Labour Mayor of London to consider whether he can influence the chair of TfL to remove not just cake adverts, but vaping adverts from places such as tubes, buses and taxis, where they may be seen by children.

In the Minister’s opening remarks he talked about tobacco track and trace, and I wonder whether he is planning to bring in the same for vaping.

The other thing I want to talk about is taxation. Other hon. Members have talked about the price of disposable vapes and how they are accessible with pocket money. Very rarely comes an opportunity for a Chancellor to bring in a tax that will promote the public’s health, still make vaping cheaper than smoking, protect our children’s health and be relatively popular, yet raise revenue. While we wait to ban the disposable versions, I encourage the Chancellor to consider adding at the next fiscal event perhaps £5 to the price of a vape, to move them out of the pocket money range.

In summary, the Minister needs to look at a whole range of measures to challenge children’s vaping, including price, location, sale and use, colours, flavours, disposable items, advertising, education and enforcement.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

I join Members from across the House in expressing concern about the way in which vaping is marketed to, and taken up by, children.

We have heard that vaping is a useful tool to help people to quit smoking, and that it is safer than smoking tobacco and cuts down the chances of developing conditions such as cancer. However, the Liberal Democrats are deeply concerned by the rise and prevalence of single-use disposable vapes, which are explicitly targeted at young people, be it through the use of brightly coloured advertisements, a range of playful colours or their placement near the front of supermarkets. We must ensure that young people do not become addicted to those products, and that vapes do not become a gateway to smoking. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), who, during her excellent speech, referred to the location of vape bars in supermarkets. I will expand on that point by talking a little about my own experience of it.

A few months ago, a parent of a student at Tiverton High School in Devon reached out to me as he was deeply concerned by the rise in the theft of vapes from our local Morrisons supermarket, which is just a short walk from Tiverton High School, making it easily accessible before and after school, and perhaps during lunch breaks. I visited the store and found that the vape stand was indeed right next to the shop entrance, offering a range of single-use disposable vapes. My staff spoke to the staff at the store, and it emerged that that spot was, yes, chosen by the vendor. The vendor specifically insisted on the vape stand being at the front of the shop in that way, and paid extra for it. As is the case in other supermarkets, the security team were not regularly stationed by the front of the shop, so it seemed ludicrous to me and my team that those products were placed so close to the door and left unprotected.

We took up the cause and campaigned with community representatives, including those from Tiverton High School, and spoke with staff from Morrisons to get that changed. After a short investigation, the store offered first to have a security guard stand next to the vape stand, but clearly, that was not enough. I am pleased to say that, after a lot of pressure, the vapes are now kept safely behind security doors, which are locked during school opening and closing periods on weekdays, meaning that vapes can be bought only from the kiosk.

That is very welcome news. I thank and pay tribute to Frazer Gould, from my part of Devon, who raised this issue with me. I do not think it should take a constituent lobbying a Member of Parliament, and that Member of Parliament getting directly involved, to ensure that those addictive products are not left openly accessible to young people.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The hon. Member is making an excellent speech. It is very helpful of him to point out the constructive actions of his constituent in this regard, although he is correct to say that it is we who should act. We should appreciate all the constituents of ours who are very focused on this, including my constituent Laura Young, who has done so much work to try to get vapes off our streets.

[Richard Foord]

I am grateful to the hon. Member. I also pay tribute to other constituents of mine: many of the young people who attend Tiverton High School. I do not want to mischaracterise them as people who are only out to steal vape bars from the supermarket at lunch times. I have been to that school several times, and there are some brilliant pupils there. Many of them are aware of the risks of becoming addicted to vape bars.

The campaigners, the high school and my team have worked with Morrisons and we have got that arrangement in place, but that is clearly just one arrangement with one supermarket. What we definitely need to do is think about single-use vape bars in the round. It is clear that we need to ban the sale of single-use disposable vapes, clamp down on the appealing packaging and the advertising of those products, and ensure that the shameless vaping companies cannot get our children hooked on those addictive devices.

[Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con)]

One of the great pleasures of being tail-end Charlie in these debates is that one has the opportunity to sit through and listen to every contribution. The disadvantage is getting nudged to hurry up by those on the Front Bench. So, I have torn up my original speech, Madam Deputy Speaker, and will focus instead on the bits from the contributions of others that you did not have the opportunity to hear yourself.

There have been lots of interesting suggestions on how we can solve this problem, which we all agree needs to be addressed. I am a father of teenage children as well, and I share the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine). I have experience of my own children’s friends using vapes—their friends, I hasten to add.

[Kirsten Oswald]

That’s what they all say!

[Jerome Mayhew]

As the hon. Lady says, that is what they all say. Obviously that is wholly inappropriate, but part of the problem in reaching the correct solution to this shared concern has been demonstrated by the richness of the debate we have had today.

All sorts of suggestions have been made. My non-exhaustive list indicates that some hon. Members said that we should ban flavours. Some of them said that we should ban all flavours; others said that we should ban only flavours that are targeted directly at young palates. There have been suggestions that we should ban disposable vapes, or that we should require bland packaging for vapes, although others suggested that the issue is not so much the packaging as the fact that they should be hidden behind closed doors. There has been a suggestion that we should increase the cost of vapes, but that was controversial—the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mary Glindon) rightly pointed out that for adults seeking to give up smoking who are on very limited means, the cost of vapes is a very relevant consideration.

[Jerome Mayhew]

I am grateful for that intervention. I do not have skin in the game about whether it is better to have a higher cost or a lower cost, but my hon. Friend’s intervention has highlighted my fundamental point, which is that this is a complex area where we need evidence to base our policy on.

It has been suggested that we should crack down on marketing. Others have suggested that we should increase education in schools, and there is a wider debate about schools policy and the use of loos in schools. There are other concerns, overriding all of these, about what impact our actions in relation to vapes—including single-use vapes—could have on the ability of adults to give up smoking, in order to continue the downward trend of smoking addiction in this country. These are serious and interrelated issues. If this debate were to result in a Division, there is no way that I could support the Labour motion, which focuses solely on banning branding and advertising for the young, because it may not go far enough. It may just focus on one little area, when the richness of the debate on both sides has highlighted how much wider and more complex the issue is.

As such, what we are really talking about is not so much our concerns about vaping, including by children: the main issue is, “How should we make our law?” It is a given on both sides of the Chamber that action should be taken, and the first speech on behalf of the Government, made by the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil O'Brien) made it clear that the Government have already acted and are intending to go further. In fact, the Secretary of State said at Health questions yesterday that the Government were looking to go further, particularly on single-use disposables. It is not a question of whether we are going to act: the question is, on what basis do we act? For my money, we should act on the evidence and not solely on anecdote, important though that is.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I would gently say that the hon. Lady has made a long contribution, and I do have two other speakers to get in. That is the only problem.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Neil O’Brien)]

We are conscious that more is going on in general practice than ever before. There are 10% more appointments than before the pandemic, as well as 29,000 extra clinicians and nearly 2,000 more doctors, but we are conscious of the pressures that puts on the estate locally. I would be very happy to meet and have further conversations with my hon. Friend.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

T3. I am sure that the Secretary of State shares my concern that school nurses report increasing rates of children presenting with health issues resulting from poor nutrition. In Scotland, the SNP Government have rolled out universal free school meals for all pupils in primary years 1 to 5 and special schools, and the expansion of the programme continues. What discussion has the Secretary of State had with Cabinet colleagues about following Scotland’s lead and expanding free school meal provision in England to improve children’s health and wellbeing?

[Steve Barclay]

Of course we have regular discussions, not just with Cabinet colleagues, but with our counterparts across the UK. I had a meeting just yesterday with Health Ministers, including my counterpart in Scotland, on the shared challenges. On the issue that the hon. Lady raises, as the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil O’Brien) said a moment ago, we are providing significant support for households—over £3,300 in support—but we also have measures that target schools, including holiday support measures and wider health and wellbeing measures, such as our significant investment in school sport.