Criminal Justice System: Wales

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2025 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Lilian Greenwood.)7.32 pm

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lefarydd.

People like to think that criminal justice happens to other people, to other families—that anybody who finds themselves in the criminal justice system deserves what they get, and that people get sent to prison to be punished. One of our jobs here is to remind ourselves, the legislators, that what we do has repercussions for real people and for their families, so I would like to open this evening’s Adjournment debate on the criminal justice system in Wales with an account of what happened to one family from Blaenau Ffestiniog: to 22-year-old Gwenno Ephraim, to her mother Karen Ephraim, to her half-sister and brother, and to her extended family. Dr Rob Jones and the Wales Governance Centre of Cardiff University allow us to understand the cracks in our criminal justice system in Wales. Gwenno’s story is what happens when real families fall between the gaps.

Gwenno’s mother first contacted my office in January 2022, seeking support after her daughter had attempted to kill herself. Gwenno was discharged from the local district hospital after two days in A&E. I am told that the mental health team were not making home visits—this was, to be fair, during the covid pandemic. A year later, Gwenno pleaded guilty to six charges at Caernarfon magistrates court, which included the assault of a healthcare worker at the Hergest mental health unit in Ysbyty Gwynedd. She was sentenced to 44 weeks in prison. This was her first experience of the criminal justice system. The family, of course, readily acknowledge that her victims deserve justice.

Despite promises of a women’s residential centre in Swansea since 2018, Wales has no prison or secure accommodation for women; neither are there any approved premises for women. Gwenno was sent just over 100 miles away to HMP Styal, outside Manchester, where she was held for a period of three months. Three months was not long enough for Gwenno to be able to get a proper diagnosis for her mental illness, but it was long enough to churn her life into chaos.

Despite being on suicide watch while in prison, Gwenno was released back into the community, where her refusal to engage was a sufficient reason for accommodation to be withdrawn. She could not stay with her mother, as her behaviour posed a threat to the younger children. This was the beginning of a vortex of bed and breakfast rooms, breaches of licence conditions, pointlessly short returns to HMP Styal, hand washing over terms like “capacity”, when Gwenno’s vulnerability was obvious, and harrowing mental health episodes in train stations, hospitals and north Wales seaside towns.

Although health and homelessness support through local authorities are devolved to Wales, criminal justice is not. Welsh women’s experience of the criminal justice system epitomises what Dr Rob Jones and Professor Richard Wyn Jones conceptualised as the “jagged edge” of justice in Wales. Despite not having a female prison, Wales has the third highest incarceration rate for women in western Europe. Like Gwenno, Welsh women are sent to prisons all across England, although predominantly to HMP Styal and HMP Eastwood Park in Gloucestershire. Last year, 78% of those women—more than three quarters—were sentenced to 12 months or less, while nearly a quarter received a month or less. Such short sentences do nothing to rehabilitate female offenders, but they do plenty to derail lives. With a 45% increase in the numbers recalled to custody for breach of licence in Wales in 2024, Gwenno’s revolving door experience is far from unique.

It does not improve when we look at the wider picture, either. Wales has had a higher in-country imprisonment rate than England since 2019, with 167 prisoners per 100,000 head of population in 2024—the highest in western Europe. In fact, one in every 648 people from Wales was in prison last year. Of course, it is not just people from Wales; 35% of all prisoners held in Wales last year were from England, with 65% of them held at HMP Berwyn in Wrexham. That is not sustainable—and so says the PCS union at Berwyn. Staff are worried that as prisoners are released early under new Government plans, empty spaces will be filled by prisoners turned away from full prisons closer to home. Of course, it is not a one-way street; around 30% of prisoners from Wales were being held across 109 prisons in England, away from their families, support networks, culture and sometimes their first language, as was exactly the case for Gwenno.

That last point is important, considering that a recent study by Rob Jones and Gregory Davies found that Welsh-speaking prisoners have

“experienced widespread neglect of their needs and overt interferences with their use of the Welsh language”

in prison. Were prisons in Wales answerable to the Senedd, more stringent Welsh language requirements would apply and the language rights of Welsh speakers in prisons would very likely be more robust. As the UK Government deal with a prison crisis that incentivises filling spaces wherever they are available, the differing needs in Wales are all the more important for us to stress.

I say this following the news of HMP Parc’s approved expansion, despite serious concerns over safety and access to drugs, and the prison recording the highest number of deaths for a single prison in 2024—the joint highest ever recorded in England and Wales. Surely placing more people in a prison where the number of prisoner-on-prisoner assaults has risen by 15%, alongside a rise in self-harm and assaults on staff, is a recipe for disaster. Also, accounting for women and category A prisoners, who also cannot be accommodated in the Welsh prison estate, is providing Wales with 700 more prison places than we presently have Welsh prisoners really a sensible idea? This could see Wales’s in-country imprisonment rate surpass the average for the whole of Europe.

Of course, it is to be anticipated that prisoners are eventually released. In Wales, this is where the “jagged edge” is particularly clear—where the wraparound services to help ex-offenders are, of course, devolved. Gwenno was released on occasion without a fixed address, far from home.

The number of people released into homelessness from Welsh prisons rose by 34% in 2024-25, and we do not even know how many Welsh prisoners released as part of the Government’s SDS40 scheme—standard determinate sentence 40—between September 2024 and March 2025 were released into homelessness, because the Ministry of Justice did not provide that data when the Wales Governance Centre requested it. There is a real constitutional question on why data on the impact of UK-level decisions that have a knock-on effect on devolved services on the ground in Wales cannot be released. Communication and data tracking between relevant bodies is the bare minimum expectation. This is, as it stands, not effective governance of criminal justice in Wales.

I will turn now to probation. When Gwenno lost her train ticket home from HMP Styal, she missed her probation appointment back home in Wales. Therefore, she was in breach of her licence and was sent straight back to prison. Her experience again shows how the Probation Service has to operate in this “jagged edge”, where prisoners are at risk of being cut off from the support that they need to negotiate the difficult space between prison and rehabilitation.

It is no secret that the probation system is overstretched, and that is an accepted reason behind the higher rates of ex-offenders like Gwenno being recalled to prison and behind any risks not being taken when there are breaches in licence conditions. As the co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group, I have heard directly from probation staff who warn that unless the service receives a significant funding uplift and a marked change in both working conditions and culture, the UK Government’s Sentencing Bill plans simply cannot succeed.

A major overhaul is necessary. However, in response to an amendment by Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd calling for the devolution of probation—as recommended by his own commission’s report, by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and by the Commission on the UK’s Future, chaired by Gordon Brown—the Government Minister’s response was that the

“capacity for change in the Probation Service…is pretty much maxed out”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 3 December 2025; Vol. 850, c. 1889.]

I am proud to say that that is not the view of many probation staff in Wales. For the Wales Probation Development Group, this juncture provides an opportunity for a 21st-century probation service that is locally managed, commissioned and delivered, with an emphasis on rehabilitation, desistance and the importance of relationships. To make that a reality, we need devolution. If change has to happen anyway, why not undertake real, lasting change that puts in practice what is actually being asked for in Wales and what could make a real difference to people like Gwenno in future?

I understand that the UK Government propose a memorandum of understanding to allow for some changes in Wales, but can the Minister tell me specifically what that would achieve in practice, because I understand from the House of Commons Library that a memorandum of understanding based on the Manchester model has “no legal force”? In the case of the Manchester agreement, either side would be free to withdraw from the MOU “at any time”, and it is not possible to raise a formal dispute or take legal action

“if either side believes the terms of the MOU have not been adhered to”.

Can she tell me how that will work for Wales, what the Welsh Government could actually do, and what would be in place to ensure that the UK Government keep to their side of any deal?

In reality, this is a way for the UK Government to essentially subcontract the meaningful community-based work, while refusing to give up the powers that set the agenda. That works for no one. If it did, why was it not the recommendation made by multiple independent commissions? I beg the Minister to answer that question. That is particularly important considering the way that the abolition of police and crime commissioners is being handled in Wales.

The Government say that Wales has a

“unique nature of devolved arrangements”,

but rather than addressing the fundamental incoherence of those arrangements and devolving criminal justice, the UK Government are instead expecting the Welsh Government to help work things out in Wales.

The delayed policing white paper is an opportunity for the UK Government to undertake meaningful reform to improve Welsh policing and the criminal justice system in Wales. To do that effectively, the Government must engage with the repeated recommendations of independent experts.

I come to my conclusion. Let us put ourselves in the position of Gwenno’s family. They have seen how offenders and ex-offenders in Wales, and their families, are failed by a resolute lack of joined-up thinking. It is through the full devolution of the criminal justice system that we can start to fix structural problems and address systematic issues in Wales that hinder both effective rehabilitation and the safety and welfare of victims, survivors and their families. This is not a political ask or a tick-box on a constitutional wish list; it is a pragmatic solution with the needs of people—victims and offenders within their communities—at its heart.

Gwenno Ephraim had been happy at school until the age of 16. She found the move to college difficult, and of course, after this there was covid—and there was a traumatic event in the family. Her mental health made her vulnerable. After offending, the only place where Gwenno found the safety of routine was in prison; she was in and out eight times between January and July this year. How is it possible for a young woman to be released from suicide watch in prison to chaotic bed-and-breakfast accommodation over and over again?

On 7 August, North Wales police put out a missing person appeal for Gwenno. It stated that she was

“last seen in…Bangor…on Monday night (28 July)…CCTV footage…appears to show Gwenno walking alone between 10.20 pm and 11.10 pm”,

by which time it is understood that she had reached the Menai suspension bridge. She has not been seen since.

The emergency services and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution made searches in the days immediately afterwards, but they found nothing. An inquest has not been opened because Gwenno is officially missing—that is her status. Because of that, Karen Ephraim is refused access to her daughter’s medical notes, as she has not got her daughter’s permission to access them. That is all logical, officially, but it makes no sense to a grieving mother looking for answers.

Will the Minister please meet Gwenno’s family, Karen Ephraim? It is better if the questions come from her mother than from her Member of Parliament. Let us remember that Gwenno was in the care of the state—in prison, in hospital and on licence. We failed her.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) for bringing this important debate to the House this evening. She will know that I am a proud Justice Minister, but I am also a very proud Welsh MP. I therefore recognise everything she said as a constituency MP. All my thoughts are with Gwenno’s family. I will happily meet Karen to answer her questions directly. I will ensure that the meeting happens.

Gwenno is a prime example of exactly how the criminal justice system is not working. It is exactly why we set up the women's justice board. It is exactly why we need to close the gaps and ensure that women like Gwenno are given the support that they need, rather than necessarily a prison sentence. It is why we have taken forward work looking at recommendations on short sentences, which serve no one, and potentially create better criminals, rather than better citizens. It is why there needs to be better wraparound support, and better support services available for women like Gwenno. It is a mission of this Government and of the Justice Department to ensure that we do not fail women like Gwenno going forward.

I also sincerely thank the right hon. Member for her continuing engagement on, and interest in, the justice system, not just in Wales but generally. She has been a tireless advocate. I welcome all engagement with her. It is not the first debate she has had on the matter, and I am sure that it will not be the last. She has tabled amendments to the Sentencing Bill, and has sought to change the probation landscape in Wales, which she also discussed. During a debate on the Sentencing Bill, she noted the impact that the Bill will have on probation in Wales; she mentioned it again this evening, as well as the work of the Thomas commission and the Brown report on the devolution of powers to Wales, which I have read closely. I know all too well about the interface between reserved and devolved services, as an MP representing a devolved constituency; she mentioned that jagged edge. She also noted the importance of using data to inform services and practices. This debate gives us a further opportunity to explore those issues in detail, and allows us to examine justice policy and the delivery landscape in Wales. I welcome that wholeheartedly.

First, I would like to deal with the commissions and reports that have considered justice and devolution in Wales, and the jagged edge that we have sadly heard so much about this evening. As the right hon. Lady noted, a number of commissions have looked into the wider devolution of powers to Wales, as well as the devolution of justice. The Thomas commission recognised the complex landscape when it comes to justice in Wales. It examined the interface between reserved and devolved responsibilities, and the delivery of many of the support services provided by devolved authorities on justice-related issues—a matter that the right hon. Lady mentioned. Yes, these interfaces exist, but it is not necessarily true that they cause problems in the delivery of justice in Wales. The Ministry of Justice, His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service and His Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service all work together with the devolved authorities on a day-to-day basis to ensure that delivery meets the distinct needs of Wales.

The Ministry of Justice engages with the Welsh Government through several structured mechanisms aimed at co-ordinating justice delivery. These include: a formal concordat between the MOJ and the Welsh Government, which establishes principles for co-operation; a memorandum of understanding on offender education; the Criminal Justice Board for Wales, which co-ordinates across criminal justice agencies and partners to oversee work on cross-cutting challenges in justice delivery for Wales; the Justice in Wales Strategy Group, which acts as the senior strategic-level interface on justice issues between the Ministry of Justice, the Home Office and the Welsh Government on key areas of policy and reform; and the inter-ministerial group for justice, a cross-Government forum that enables formal and regular engagement on justice issues among the UK, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Governments, and which addresses matters of shared interest.

The Minister with responsibility for sentencing, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Jake Richards), met our devolved counterparts in the past week, and I have also recently met my counterpart in the Welsh Government to discuss cross-jurisdictional issues. We regularly meet and have collaborative conversations. This is in addition to the daily official-level engagement on a range of issues. As a result, I am pleased to inform the House that justice delivery in Wales is performing well. Prisons are, believe it or not, performing well. HMPPS in Wales has five public prisons: Cardiff, Swansea, Usk, Prescoed and Berwyn, and one private prison, Parc.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

On the matter of courts, there has been much debate about the removal of jury trial in certain circumstances, but I am told that in Wales, we do not have those court backlogs, and that this is a problem in England that could be imposed on Wales. Is there not the potential to leave the status quo as it is in Wales? We could then see whether the proposal works by making a comparison between Wales and England. I am told that the courts in Wales are not in the same position as those in England, as regards backlogs, at all.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

I would like to see the information that the right hon. Lady has, because the information I have had is that our court system in Wales has quite a severe backlog. Victims and survivors who I speak to in Wales daily have told me that they are waiting years for their case to get to trial. That backlog is very real. If the right hon. Lady has information to the contrary, I would welcome that. We know that the issue in our courts is quite severe at the moment.

Going back to our prisons, HMP Usk scored the highest possible score across all four areas of assessment. Despite a challenging time across the estates, HMPPS in Wales identified strengths in leadership and governance, along with collaborative working with the Welsh Government. It shows that this can be done well, and all our prisons have robust action plans in place to ensure continued improvement and ongoing development.

The right hon. Lady mentioned our Welsh courts. They are performing well. The Crown court performance in Wales is one of the best in the country. However, backlogs still exist. Also on backlogs in Welsh courts, there is concern about magistrates courts in Wales. Civil and family justice is performing well. Wales has seen successful initiatives, such as the pathfinder pilot, which is transforming private family law proceedings in Wales by offering a less adversarial process, focused on early intervention, especially for domestic abuse cases. I have seen that at first hand in Newport and Cardiff.

However, we must do more to continue to improve delivery. One recommendation of the Thomas commission was that justice data should be Wales-specific and more detailed, and that there should be disaggregated data, reflecting distinct Welsh needs. Such data is crucial to effective delivery in Wales. It is important to note that disaggregated, Wales-specific data is already collected and published. A comprehensive review of nearly 400 Welsh Government priority data requests found that 40% of the requested data had already been published, with clear signposting provided to aid navigation.

Notwithstanding that, the Government recognise the importance of specific data in policy development and operational delivery, so last month, Lord Timpson, the Minister in the other place, wrote to the Welsh Government to set out areas where we will now collect additional, disaggregated data for Wales. I will happily keep the right hon. Lady updated on that.

Over the past 18 months, the Ministry of Justice has worked collaboratively with Welsh Government officials and stakeholders, including Dr Robert Jones of the Wales Governance Centre, and has made significant steps forward in Welsh data collection and disaggregation. We have focused on improving transparency, accessibility and relevance of Welsh-specific justice data. We have developed and published a new Welsh-specific dataset, including the annual management information release on Welsh prisoner data, and a bespoke Welsh reoffending data release for the Equality and Social Justice Committee. Additional breakdowns, such as custody type by institution and deaths under probation supervision in approved premises, were published in the October 2025 offender management statistics quarterly release.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I welcome the disaggregated data. It has been quite a battle to get that, but it indicates that this is an area that the new Government are interested in. If a complete dataset shows us that there are certain tendencies from year to year, and that justice is not being served well in Wales, I hope the Government will consider the evidence put before them.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

We will always be evidence-led. The right hon. Lady mentioned that the issue is not political. We will always look at what the data is telling us, and I will happily work with her and other colleagues on that.

We have also committed to publishing further data—for example, on homelessness by institution, and on the Welsh language. It is a severe concern to me that Welsh prisoners are not able to converse in their mother tongue, and it is important that we address that. We are committed to publishing that data when it is available. It is anticipated by the end of 2026. We are also supporting the development of a publicly available Welsh Government dashboard. We have facilitated data sharing agreements, including agreements on Welsh youth justice data.

In addition, substantial volumes of data are now accessible via the Office for National Statistics Secure Research Service and the Welsh Government-funded SAIL—secure anonymised information linkage—databank, and this will support evidence-based policy development. Officials will continue to enhance Welsh data provision when opportunities arise. We will promote awareness of existing datasets and maintain engagement with stakeholders to understand emerging priorities.

I turn to the impact of criminal justice initiatives on devolved services, which I know is an area of interest for the right hon. Lady. In our manifesto, we committed to undertaking a strategic review of probation, which will also cover devolution, and we are working constructively with the Welsh Government on this—I want to reassure her on that point. That includes developing a memorandum of understanding on co-commissioning and local working partnerships. That is still in development and, again, I will happily bring her into that, to ensure that we get this right, and that we do not just get a replica of Manchester, but instead do bespoke work for Wales that is Wales-specific.

However, the right hon. Lady will be aware that the criminal justice system faces acute and significant pressures, and we are taking action as a Government to remedy the situation. The Sentencing Bill and upcoming legislation to implement the recommendations of the independent review of the criminal courts are key components of that action, and we will need time to bed that in. It is important that we take time to get that right. Our priority is to ensure that the system is stabilised before we undertake any further review of the governance arrangements, but we will do so.

We will continue to ensure that the impact of this work on devolved services is considered carefully, and we will continue to work with the Welsh Government and devolved authorities to ensure that the system works effectively and sustainably in Wales. We have already had a number of discussions with the Welsh Government about this work and the impact on devolved authorities, and my ministerial colleagues and I will continue to engage with Welsh Government Ministers on all justice issues to ensure that they can inform policy development and delivery, and reflect the distinct and specific needs of the people of Wales.

To conclude, the justice system is, as we are all sadly aware, facing unprecedented challenges, particularly in the criminal justice space. The Government inherited a prison system on the verge of collapse, which would have left the courts unable to send offenders to prison and the police unable to arrest dangerous criminals. By working closely with our partners in Wales, we are delivering a system that is meeting the needs of Welsh users. The picture in Wales is positive, in the criminal, civil and family space, and we are striving to ensure that these partnerships continue to improve justice delivery in Wales.

Again, I extend a hand to the right hon. Lady and colleagues across the political divide, and offer to work with them to ensure that we get this right, because this is not political; this is about serving the needs of the people of Wales. When we came into office, we spoke of the difference that a Labour Government working at both ends of the M4 would have for Wales. This is that delivery in action. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Question put and agreed to.