Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, like others, I am pleased to see my noble friend Lord Caine on the Front Bench. He has laboured long in the vineyard and it is long past time that recognition for that effort was given—I think we are all of one mind on that in this place. We are also delighted to see the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on the Labour Front Bench. The noble Baroness was an excellent Minister during her time there and, while the noble Lord did not manage to exercise power in Northern Ireland because he was appointed Admiral of the Fleet before he got that opportunity, we have nevertheless got a pretty good team, with plenty of experience.

This Bill, to be honest, is a bit of sticking plaster, along with many other pieces of legislation that come along. What we are actually doing is trying to fix holes in the bucket that have been created by people who just do not behave properly. We will go into a lot more detail in Committee, of course, but I want to make a couple of points.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made the telling comment that commitments are made and then not delivered. That, unfortunately, is a feature and has been for some time, so it is important to know who makes these commitments. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, pointed to the Library note, while page 2, paragraph 1 of the Explanatory Note says:

“This Bill will deliver aspects of the New Decade, New Approach deal which was agreed by the five main Northern Ireland political parties”.


That is not true. Paragraph 6 says that the five main parties, which it names, entered into a power-sharing Government

“following their agreement to the New Decade, New Approach deal.”

Again, that is not true. My party has never agreed to New Decade, New Approach.

In fact, on 16 January 2020, when my noble friend’s predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, was in post, I made that point to him. When he referred to it

“as a basis to re-enter devolved government”,—[Official Report, 16/1/20; col. 841.]

I said in response:

“That is not true. This is not an agreement. It is a government Statement and a Statement of the British and Irish Governments collectively. It was shoved into our hands at 8.30 pm last Thursday.”—[Official Report, 16/1/20; col. 850.]


That was 36 hours before the Executive was reformed. We took our positions in that Executive based on our rights under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, not under the New Decade, New Approach agreement. It is necessary to correct that because, with some of the commitments in New Decade, New Approach—for example, on cultural and language issues—the structures envisaged are basically grievance factories in the making.

The noble Lord, Lord Hain, referred to the legacy issues. We have never supported those; we never supported the Stormont House agreement either. It is important that we get our facts straight. We will obviously have an opportunity to tease out some of these issues in greater detail in Committee, but I thought it was important to say that.

The issues about petitions of concern and so on, as well as the commitment to keeping the institutions going, are driven by the fact that people just have not used common sense. Take the Assembly from 2011 to 2016: there were 115 exercises of the petition of concern; 86 of them were initiated by the DUP, 29 by the SDLP and Sinn Féin, and two by my party. That pattern extended to shielding Ministers from sanction even by departmental committees—come on, that is just out of control.

The Bill tries to patch up and fix abuses of the system. One can see why. If people walk out through the front door for political purposes and bring the institutions down, I can understand why it is necessary to try to build in some safeguards. But equally, if we say that somebody can be in office for 48 weeks—effectively a year—without clarity on what they can or cannot do, and indeed against any democratic principle, is it fair or reasonable to expect them to hold office under those circumstances? Can you imagine the situation here if we had that? I do not think it would go down terribly well. I understand that they are trying to keep things held together, but that is because they loosened the glue that held the agreement together in the first place—that is why we have the problems that we have.

We will come to a lot of that detail again when we come to Committee, but it is important to recognise that any institution built on a diplomatic agreement and a diplomatic document will always be under stress. The point has been made about a coalition of five parties. It is not easy; those of us who have been in them for a number of years will know. We can imagine what it would be like if we put Bill Cash and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, together in the one Government; multiply that by what we have to deal with and you get some sense of how difficult it is.

One has to have a different approach than simply implementing things à la Westminster. That is undoubtedly the case. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, rightly pointed out, you have to understand where we were coming from in the late 1990s and what had happened. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, gave us a very vivid example of the backdrop to how the agreement was finally put together. To those who have been saying that Brexit had to be implemented on the basis of a 52% to 48% vote, I remind people that 71.2% of the people supported the agreement. That is a big majority.

That leads neatly on to the comments made by a number of noble Lords about the protocol. People have exceptionally short memories. The protocol is the embodiment of the border in the Irish Sea. It is the legal framework to give effect to the border in the Irish Sea between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We have to remember where that came from. That border in the Irish Sea was proposed by the Prime Minister on 2 October 2019 in his document. He proposed border inspection posts and that all goods coming into Northern Ireland from Great Britain would be subject to inspection and to EU rules. If that does not bring in the European court, I do not know what does. This is an entirely self-inflicted mess within our own United Kingdom. Sadly, the Prime Minister was not without endorsement for the proposal at the time. The fact is that that is the genesis of it. You cannot expect to fix it without going back to the fundamental points as to where it came from.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, and others mentioned this legendary Article 16. Article 16 of the protocol, which is part of the withdrawal agreement, is a safeguarding mechanism for the protocol. It is a safety valve so that, where issues arise, renegotiation takes place on a very limited number of articles, Articles 5 to 10. The people who negotiated those are the same people sitting at the table today. I was given a Parliamentary Answer last week by the noble Lord, Lord Frost. It was only a one-liner, but it spelled it all out. He made it very clear that, even if Article 16 is triggered, the remainder of the protocol is unaffected.

Some unionists have latched on to Article 16 as some kind of a way out. Friends, it is not; it is a way to protect the protocol. The only way out is to have an amended treaty. We have to have a treaty because we have a trade treaty with the European Union, and the only way we can effectively deal with that problem is with a new or an amended treaty. Article 16 merely deals with mitigations, welcome though some of them may very well be.

That is a bit of background to the circumstances in which we find ourselves back in Northern Ireland right now. I hope we can make improvements to this legislation. A question for my noble friend is: when will the other piece of legislation we are anticipating come forward? I have no doubt at all that he will give us a chapter and verse on that when he comes to reply.

A number of people have said there are things they would like to see changed, and so on. Even though we may not be particularly agreeable to some of the proposals that are coming forward, we are duty bound to listen to what people are saying. If something is concerning them, we have to listen to what they are saying. If we are not prepared to do that, there is no point criticising everybody else, or criticising the Government for ignoring people or for shoving a piece of paper into your hand 36 hours before you are asked to put your hand up for it. That sort of negotiation does not work. We have to listen to people and to be prepared to negotiate in good faith—it does not mean you agree but at least people would get their opportunity to put their case and have it respected.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 2 and 3 in my name and to support Amendment 4 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan.

Amendment 2 refers to restoring the Good Friday agreement provision for joint election by the Assembly of the joint First Ministers. Amendment 3 would provide that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister be referred to as joint First Ministers, reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities.

I looked at some of the Commons stages of this Bill and noticed that my colleague, the former Member for Foyle, Mark Durkan, gave evidence. He was one of the negotiators, along with the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Empey, of the Good Friday agreement. He and the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party talked about going back to the factory settings of that agreement, in which both First Ministers are jointly elected by the Assembly and are therefore jointly accountable to it. In their roles and responsibilities, they are seen as equal.

The change took place in the St Andrews agreement. Those of us at St Andrews back in October 2006 will well recall those particular issues. I am sure that those in the room—I think I was outside it, but some of those who were inside it are here—could relate some of that. That destroyed or undermined the principle of parity of esteem, respect for political difference and, above all, the principle of power sharing and of working together, and it led to the sectarianisation of elections: that is, the elections of 2007, in which I was a participant, 2011, 2016 and 2017, and it looks like the Assembly election 2022 is heading in the same direction. The contest will not be about the issues that matter to people: a Covid recovery plan, education, the need for sound infrastructure, the economy or addressing health waiting lists. It will be, “Make me First Minister, so that they don’t get it”. It becomes a confrontation between them and us across the sectarian divide.

PR elections in Northern Ireland were never meant to be about that level of sectarianism. They were meant to be about breaking down barriers and respecting the various viewpoints, whether unionist, nationalist or other, but taking all into the melting pot. We now see that what was contrived at St Andrews has led to the sectarianisation of these elections.

I have had discussions with the noble Lord the Minister about these particular issues, so I am probing at this stage with a view to bringing this back on Report. Can the Minister say whether positive consideration will be given to these amendments? What discussions, if any, have taken place with ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office and Cabinet Office and with the Prime Minister about their intent and purpose and about the need to desectarianise the elections to the Assembly and the subsequent work in the institutions? We must always bear in mind that strand 1, which dealt with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive, and strand 2, on the North/South Ministerial Council, are interlinked. One plays off on the other, which from the nationalist perspective gives us that all-Ireland perspective. It is important that the method that is used for the election of the First Ministers is joint, so that they are accountable to the Assembly, are nominated and elected together and are voted on together. We need to go back to that particular position.

There also needs to be an equalisation of titles, as in Amendment 3, so that there is respect for political difference and a sense of agreement and consensus and, above all, so that the principle of consent is the kernel in all this.

I look forward to the Minister’s answers in relation to those two amendments.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, Amendment 4 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Rogan is self-explanatory. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, has said, it brings the proposals back to the arrangements that were entered into in 1998.

I believe of course that no agreement can be set in stone, and this was a multi-party agreement. Therefore, in my view, if you are going to change it, it should be a multi-party change. However, things are done, unfortunately, in back-stairs deals or behind closed doors and without the consent or knowledge of a number of the participants in the process that originally led to the agreement.

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I have made the point that this amendment to the agreement came into effect following St Andrews, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said, but it never had the support of those parties that negotiated the Belfast agreement in the first place. The purpose of the original model was to ensure that the necessary partnership between the parties that qualified for these positions was endorsed by the Assembly by joint resolution, giving public and political expression to the concept of a shared office of equals. The 2006 proposals have changed the character of subsequent elections. They have become sectarian headcounts. Some parties have, for example, argued that if they are not supported Sinn Féin would occupy the office of First Minister or vice versa, even though there is no legal difference between them.

My party believes that if the agreement is to be changed, as it is a multiparty agreement, proper discussions should precede new legislation. The Minister is well aware of my views on this, which have been held for many years. However, the evidence of recent years has shown that the change, while no doubt introduced by the Government of the day with the best of intentions, has held back the development of normal politics and resulted in ongoing stalemate and silo government. After 23 years, we are sitting here talking about the legislation before us, which is basically a patch-up job to prevent the institutions from collapsing completely. It clearly indicates that all is not well.

I do not intend to detain the Committee much longer, but I will make the point that what was done at that stage has not worked and we have wasted a further 15 years in failing to advance the cause of more normal arrangements and politics where things such as the economy, health and education are seriously debated and those debates make a difference. So far, that is not happening because people are forced into circling the waggons at each election. Even a cursory examination of election manifestos will clearly indicate that that is the direction of travel.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

I shall speak briefly in favour of Amendment 3, to which I have added my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, spelled out, it would provide for the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to be referred to as Joint First Ministers, reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities. I hesitate slightly to speak in too much detail on this amendment when there are quite so many noble Lords in the Room who were directly involved with the various negotiations, but it seems to me that the current terminology allows for a distortion of the reality. In reality, if the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are entirely equal, can the Minister say what would be the disadvantage of passing this amendment or similar amendments? My honourable friend Stephen Farry said during the debate in the House of Commons when it passed this Bill that making this change would

“take the heat out of the fairly … meaningless contrast that is made and creates huge tension in our election campaigns.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 159.]

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 19th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I will make a few brief remarks in relation to Amendments 1 and 2. At the outset, I say that most people who live in the real world acknowledge that the Belfast agreement is a flawed piece of work. It is not perfect, and those of us who try from time to time to point out the imperfections are frowned upon as anti-democratic in some way.

I and my colleagues cannot support Amendments 1 or 2, not least because they are very much outside the scope of the Bill and the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which focused on ensuring the stability of the institutions. The appropriate vehicle for scrutinising the existing rules and appointments is the Assembly and Executive Review Committee at Stormont. This should certainly not be tagged on to the coat-tails of the Bill.

Your Lordships’ House should keep very much before it that, to put it mildly, the Northern Ireland Assembly is in a very difficult and precarious position. The protocol, which has already been referred to, has virtually put the Executive and the very existence of the Northern Ireland Assembly on life support. We were always told that nothing could move forward in Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority, and the consent of the minority. Of course, no unionist supports the protocol. But, somehow, we have been told, “Just suck it up and get on with it”.

Some time ago, when Sinn Féin sought to bring changes to welfare reform, it pulled the whole edifice down. Not only did it not get its demands at that time around welfare reform, but it then added three other demands and said that it would not go back until those were met—and nor did it go back until they were met in totality. They were steamed through the other place, and the Northern Ireland Assembly was given no say whatever. So the abuse of the cross-party and the majority of the majority and the majority of the minority has well and truly been kicked into touch.

Some of us are conversant with how decisions were agreed to assist in getting devolution done. That would not have happened if there had not been a St Andrews agreement. Again, everyone who lives in the real world recognises that. I know that some, even in this House, refuse to recognise that, but it is a fact.

The DUP is also opposed to Amendment 2. The purpose of the Bill is to legislate for measures agreed under the New Decade, New Approach deal, not to undo and tear up previous commitments at St Andrews in the absence of political consensus. It should be said that NDNA is a package, not a single item on its own, but that has been ignored to all intents and purposes. I know that at a later stage we will hear about a very useful amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I add that that is helpful.

Some seem to be asking for a full reset of the institutions, but we certainly are not. That is not in keeping with the spirit of what has been agreed. I said that the Executive and the Assembly are now in a very difficult place. This House should be ever mindful of that and keep it before us in all our deliberations. I reiterate that had it not been for the St Andrews agreement element of the devolution settlement then there would never have been an Executive and an Assembly at Stormont. Those who do not acknowledge that are just living in denial.

I listened intently to what the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said. She said that the St Andrews agreement had changed the emphasis on the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the Belfast agreement, or the Good Friday agreement, as some call it. I say this: the identical status never existed, even in the Belfast agreement. There was always a difference between the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, which helped to make things happen, so it did.

Furthermore, in the last election in Belfast North we had a very hard-working, industrious full-time Member of Parliament, Nigel Dodds, now the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. What did the SDLP and Sinn Féin do? They locked horns and a cabal was formed to oust that hard-working Member of Parliament. Who did they put in? Someone who declared, “I will never attend Parliament”, but has a fully paid-for political office while continuing to run his legal business elsewhere. Is that double-jobbing? It seems that it is not, yet if someone were to sit in Parliament, the Assembly or a local council and do that, it would be. We really need to catch a grip of things and try to realise what exactly is going on. This behaviour should be called out. Not only did the SDLP and Sinn Féin come together in Belfast North; as a quid pro quo, Sinn Féin stands aside in Belfast South to help to elect the SDLP.

Let us be very careful about rushing ahead and doing things in Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority in Northern Ireland. That is exactly what is happening at the moment. We have a protocol that is strangling our economy, but that does not seem to matter. We will continue to work for the changes in the protocol—indeed, it has to go; it is a massive hindrance. It will be one of the uppermost things that will help to destroy the Belfast agreement, and indeed the Executive and the Stormont Assembly.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, after that contribution it is difficult to know where to start. I begin by saying to the Minister that this is the first piece of legislation of substance that he has had to deal with. He will obviously have detected that this Bill is supposed to implement elements of New Decade, New Approach, and I suspect that he will notice the absence of references to that and its substance, as people have moved on to other things. My party is not a party to the New Decade, New Approach agreement and did not support it. There are elements within it that are okay, but we did not agree with the totality of it. Of course, the Bill is before us only because various abuses of the system have taken place over the years, and this particular piece of legislation is trying to patch up holes in the bucket.

There are differences between the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the amendment from my noble friend Lord Rogan and me. One deals with how to describe the offices of First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and the other deals with how we identify and arrive at them. The reason why we have suggested going back to the original in Amendment 2 is relatively obvious. First, it is what was agreed at the talks. Secondly, it is what was there when the people of Northern Ireland voted in the referendum to pass the agreement. Therefore, it has the legitimacy of being agreed by the parties at the time—those that participated —in strand 1 at Stormont. Neither Sinn Féin nor the DUP participated, but those parties that did put that proposal to the electorate before anything was operated at Stormont the first time.

I have disagreed with the noble Lord, the former Secretary of State, over his decision in 2006-07 to make changes following the St Andrews agreement, because the changes to the methodology for electing the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were not in the communiqué for St Andrews, but they appeared in the draft legislation immediately after it. The differences appeared at the time to be relatively modest—unless you looked at the minutiae—but they are actually very profound. The reason why we negotiated the arrangements as set out in Amendment 2 is that it was designed to give political, public and constitutional expression to the partnership of the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

The regret that I have is that we were perhaps influenced to some extent by what was happening in Scotland at the time, where its devolution was coming together, and the names of the titles of the two officeholders perhaps are misleading. Some people saw them as hierarchical; I do not. I think I am the only person in this Chamber who has held the office. I can tell your Lordships that they are equal, and I will tell you why. In the first week I held the office, with the late Seamus Mallon, we were unable to agree on the notepaper heading for the department. The department was incapable of sending out any correspondence for a week, until such time as we agreed on what the notepaper looked like.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for the responses they have made to these amendments. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and my noble friend Lord Lexden, that it is my intention to make these reports as comprehensive as possible while, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, mentioned, respecting the boundaries of devolution. I will take away her comments, and those of my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, to try to ensure that the reports are as far reaching and detailed possible. I also reassure my noble friend Lord Lexden, with whom I go back many years, that I am totally committed to recognising and upholding the sovereignty of the United Kingdom Government, and of this House, with respect to Northern Ireland. It is part of the United Kingdom, and he knows well that this is a situation that I wish will endure for ever.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

I welcome the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. In his capacity of spokesperson on the union, can the Minister give us an assurance that he will be able to give us similar six-monthly reports and debates on what is happening in Scotland and Wales?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I think that is a matter that I will have to raise with my noble friends in the Scottish Office and the Welsh Office.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, mentioned the transitional arrangements. If I can put it as plainly as possible, under the current rules, if either the First Minister or Deputy First Minister were to resign, there would be a seven-day period by which there would have to be a renomination before an election was triggered. If that were to happen up to seven days before Royal Assent was given, it would apply retrospectively once Royal Assent had been given, and the provisions of this Bill would kick in.

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, once again my noble friend the Minister is suffering from mission creep as far as the Bill is concerned, but I think he will have to concede that we are past the post on that and we are where we are.

The genesis of this issue is obviously our decision to leave the EU. I do not want to reopen that debate; we spent years in this House arguing the toss. However, before the vote I and my colleagues—many of whom are actually not Europhiles at all; many are very hostile to the EU’s federalist tendencies and all the rest of it—visited Prime Minister Cameron before the vote specifically to find out what his plans were in the event that the UK decided to leave the EU. It was a fairly elementary thing to do. We came away from that meeting clear in our own minds that our own Government had not worked out how our situation was going to be dealt with in future negotiations with the EU. That made us feel very uneasy.

What we are talking about tonight, and have been talking about for the past few years, is closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. As the noble Lord, Lord Bew, eloquently pointed out, we are fighting from a much-weakened position. The negotiations pertaining to the European Union started off disastrously. First, we agreed how much money we were going to pay it before we knew what the deal was. Then we put Northern Ireland matters on the table and separated them from trade. They should never have been separated from trade. It was a disaster and, unfortunately, you could see it coming. It is not any surprise. All of these problems—virtually without exception—were anticipated. That is the tragedy of it: it was avoidable and Brexit, as far as Northern Ireland was concerned, was not thought through in sufficient detail. We knew it was going to be difficult, and that was compounded by poor negotiating strategy and implementation.

Our little Province is now left with this mess that we now have. What we have here, and what the protocol currently is, is the product of a proposal from our own Prime Minister. He wrote his explanatory note to the European Union on 2 October 2019, and he proposed the border in the Irish Sea. He proposed border inspection posts; he proposed that the European Union rules would be followed; he proposed that all goods coming from Great Britain would have to be notified to the authorities before they could enter Northern Ireland so that they could be subject to inspection on EU rules. He also included a section on consent whereby the Assembly and the Executive would have to give their ongoing consent. However, he made the point that there must an ability to exit them: that is what he said in the note to the European Union. Of course, you cannot exit them if you are not in them, so the implication is that you are in them before you can get out of them.

This was our own Government’s proposal. As to the point made by the noble Baroness, that would have implied that even though the document accepted a border in the Irish Sea and all the other downstream consequences, it at least accepted that there was a road for the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive. The one tricky point about that was that, at the time this note was written, there was no Northern Ireland Assembly or Executive to give their consent to anything, because they were out of business. It was a flawed process right the way through.

I point out to my noble friend Lord Hannan on cross-community consent: if you take that through to all decisions, Northern Ireland, as a unit, would not have left the European Union because there would not have been cross-community consent. We have to be very careful where we draw the lines here.

I do not understand—and probably to my dying day I will never understand—why some Democratic Unionist colleagues here, on the day that this was announced, endorsed it. Arlene Foster backed it as

“a serious and sensible way forward”.

They were perfectly entitled to argue that consent paragraphs were in it, but why would you even contemplate, as a unionist, a border in the Irish Sea, border inspection posts, people having to notify from Great Britain before they send a box of goods to Northern Ireland? Consent or no consent, I just do not understand it.