Government: Procurement

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to raise that point. As part of the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement last year government departments agreed to release a substantial package of data including material relating to many of the major departments. Most people will also be able to access data rather freely through our Open Data Institute, which we hope to have fully launched by September.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, what proportion of the Government’s expenditure on science and technology is accounted for by Ministry of Defence procurement? Is the Minister satisfied that that allocation of resources is well judged to encourage the most productive take-up of new technology in the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Verma]

The noble Lord raises a specific point which I think I need to take back with me as I would not want to quote a wrong figure on the Floor of the House. I will take it back and come back to him.

Migration: University-sponsored Students

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I totally agree with the noble Lord in that I accept that students coming to universities—and I stress that the Question is purely about students coming to universities—provide very great value to this country, and we want to see their numbers increase in many areas. They have increased over the past year or so, as I understand it, but we want to get rid of some of the bogus students who come here not to study but to work—and that is what we are doing.

It is important that we stick to international UN definitions. As I said, there would be considerable criticism of me if I suggested that we should fix those figures purely for our own purposes.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, if the Government were to accept the proposal put to them by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would they not thereby confer a great benefit on UK universities and on bona fide international university students, as well as on our international standing, and at the same time be able to hit their own immigration target figures, which they have otherwise not a hope of achieving?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is, yet again, another one who wants me to fix the figures. I do not want to do that. We want to do these things in a proper way, and the definition of migrants is that they are people staying for over a year. We welcome students and do what we can to get them, but we are not going to fix the figures in the manner that he suggests.

Police: Officer Numbers

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I have always accepted that there is a cost to appointing police and crime commissioners, but we believe they will bring accountability. Accountability will be good for that service, and we will get even better value for money.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Does the noble Lord think it is good value for money if the crime rate is going up?

[Lord Henley]

I have just quoted the figures relating to the period that I cited in the original Answer, which showed that recorded crime is going down.

Identity Documents Bill

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)]

My Lords, I acknowledge that Members of your Lordships’ House sought earlier to determine whether I had, following Report, sought to obtain further legal advice. At the risk of repeating myself, let me say that the House will be aware that, by long-standing convention observed by successive Administrations and embodied in the Ministerial Code, the fact that law officers have or have not advised on a particular issue and the content of any advice are not disclosable outside the Government.

I have consulted Hansard and spoken to officials during the adjournment. I did say on Report that I would confirm the advice that we had received on legal aspects. I am able to confirm that I did just that, that the contents of the Bill are compatible with ECHR requirements and that I have given that commitment based on legal advice. I have taken appropriate legal advice at all stages of the Bill, including Report. I hope that noble Lords will appreciate that the convention of the House, which I have tried to follow, does not enable me to disclose the source of that advice, but I am satisfied that I have taken it.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords—

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the Minister is fulfilling a commitment to the House. I think that the noble Lord is now graciously allowing her to do so.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for coming back to the House and to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for entertaining us for so many minutes before she was able to do so. I will be very clear. The Minister has answered one specific point that was raised on Report. However, I remind her that she was asked whether advice was received from the law officers. The noble Baroness said, “I will confirm the advice that I have received”. She has now answered that point. However, she was also asked by my noble and learned friend, Lord Morris of Aberavon, who is a former law officer, whether the advice was from the law officers. The noble Baroness said:

“I am not sure that I can confirm that. I will seek to do so before Third Reading”.—[Official Report, 17/11/10; col. 792.]

She has not answered that point, nor has she given an assurance to the House that, following Report, she did anything at all in relation to the commitments that she gave.

I hear what the noble Baroness says about the disclosure of the law officers’ advice. That is a separate point to the one asked by my noble and learned friend, who asked whether advice had been sought from the law officers. That is a different issue. On the issue of the availability of advice from the law officers, would the noble Baroness be prepared to let me see that advice on Privy Council terms? The substantive issue that this raises is about Ministers making commitments to the House and then following them up. It is a matter that I will return to in the fullness of time.

The further substantive issue is one of fairness. Thousands of people bought ID cards on the basis that they were for a 10-year period. The Government have decided to withdraw those cards and this Bill enables them to do so. That is parliamentary democracy. We did not oppose the Bill, because we recognised that commitments were made in the manifestos of both parties in the coalition Government. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, said, the issue is one of fairness. How can it possibly be fair, when a person has bought a card for 10 years, for it to be withdrawn after a matter of months and for no compensation to be given? It is an absolute disgrace.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I will speak briefly about two issues. We certainly accept the convention that the noble Baroness is under no obligation to tell the House what the advice of the law officers was. However, I am surprised, not least in the light of the earlier observations by my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon, to hear her assert that she is under no obligation to tell the House whether she received advice from the law officers. I wonder whether part of the reason for her difficulty earlier in the afternoon was that the advice of the law officers was not consistent. Perhaps they disagreed among themselves, which put her in an embarrassing and difficult position. Perhaps she would be willing to cast any light on that; if she would, I think that the House would be interested.

The second issue is the one that I raised earlier. I am genuinely unclear, from what the Minister said this afternoon, whether the Government are asserting financial privilege and hiding behind a ruling of the Speaker and whether they are content that this extension of the doctrine of financial privilege to cover matters of expenditure as well as measures concerned with revenue raising is an appropriate new doctrine for them to espouse and to use for their political convenience. As I suggested earlier, if that is the case, there are large implications for this House, which we should ponder and take seriously. Will the Minister tell us in plain terms whether the Government consider that this is a matter of financial privilege and therefore outside the authority and competence of this House to vote on?

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords—

Identity Documents Bill

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, it is one more noxious constitutional innovation on the part of the coalition that the Government seek to pray in aid financial privilege when they do not want to face up to the consequences of their policies and their legislative actions in this House. Historically, I believe, privilege has not been claimed in relation to matters of expenditure. I am very willing to be corrected by noble Lords who are former Speakers or Deputy Speakers of the House of Commons, but that is my belief. There is hardly a policy, a Bill or a statutory instrument introduced by Governments into Parliament that does not involve expenditure. If it ceases to be in order and permissible for this House seriously to consider the legislation and the policies brought in by the Government on the basis that financial privilege means that it is not appropriate for us to do so, we might as well pack up and go home. Such a situation would make an absolute mockery of our claim to be a revising Chamber or, indeed, a proper debating Chamber.

On that point, I appreciate that the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, always seeks to act in the best interests of the House, as does the noble Lord, Lord McNally, but I would say to them that we are a debating Chamber. As my noble friend Lord Davies said, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, is very well able to look after herself. The House respects her and I am sure that she is personally willing to enter into debate.

On the constitutional point, I think that this really is of the greatest importance. It seems both cowardly on the part of the Government and contemptuous of this House that they seek to evade debate and, under a new and bogus claim of financial privilege, seek to prevent us from voting on issues on which we have traditionally been entitled to vote. This is a constitutional innovation of which your Lordships’ House should be aware and upon which it should reflect very carefully indeed.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, we have just listened to the most toe-curling self-righteousness from Members of the Opposition, who were, after all, the ones who introduced the ID cards scheme in the first place. They encouraged people to think that it would be a great thing to have an ID card. The fact that 30,000 people or thereabouts bought ID cards does not necessarily mean that those people thought about whether the cards were a good thing; they were encouraged to think so by the previous Government. Now we have the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, whom I have a lot of time for, saying that the Government will have to face up to the consequences of their policies in this House.

I say to noble Lords opposite that they should all face up to the consequences of their policy of bringing in ID legislation in the first place and of encouraging people to go and buy the identity cards. I am not taking sides on this one—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

On all previous occasions when we discussed this matter, I was honest with the House that I had some difficulty with it, but is what was the substantive issue then in fact the issue for today? I have been waiting to hear some comment on the Commons reason for disagreeing with this House’s amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, addressed the issue of financial privilege and suggested that we should not accept it. However—and this is an entirely personal view—I think that this may well be an issue that goes to heart of the relationship between the two Houses. I have grave doubts as to whether we should tackle that convention on the back of this Bill. This is an important, stand-alone issue, but it is not one that we should seek to overturn in this manner.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Before she sits down—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

We should listen to the quick intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I agree with the noble Baroness that the constitution issue has to be disentangled from the question of what is immediately to be done about the practical issue—the substance of the policy—in the Government’s rejection of the amendment that was made in this House. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, is already engaged in this matter—I am sure that she is—and that she will wish to hold discussions with the Speaker of the House of Commons about the possibility that the doctrine of financial privilege is being extended in a manner that is dangerous to the interests of this House and the fulfilment of its proper responsibilities.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made a powerful case on whether or not a right of property has been established. He made an equally powerful case on the last occasion that we debated the matter. I asked then whether advice had been sought by the Minister, particularly from the law officers, as that would have been helpful. I understood that we might be told before Third Reading that that advice had been sought. In the Bill there is a declaration that the legislation is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Having heard the powerful arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is the Minister satisfied that that is the case?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Does the noble Lord agree that this is about expenditure and not about revenue raising? It is a relevant distinction.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My understanding of the conventions is that we have no right to impose expenditure on the Commons and this is an expenditure provision—an expenditure of £30 per card surrendered. However, that is another matter on which we must have absolutely clear advice. It would be folly for us to go ahead today—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I am neither confirming nor denying; I am simply saying that I cannot take this any further.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Is it the case that the noble Baroness does not know whether advice has been sought from the law officers, or is it that she thinks it is inappropriate to tell the House whether advice has been sought from the law officers?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I really have nothing more that I can say on this subject. Could I go on to the question of financial—

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

No!

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, suggested that we should resolve this matter by a vote. I am not entirely clear whether it is the position of the Minister that the House should not be entitled to vote because the Government are claiming financial privilege.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Perhaps I may intervene briefly because I—

Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Order 2010

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I am beginning to think that it is probably unwise for someone who is neither a lawyer nor a former senior policeman to engage in this debate, but those with longish memories may recall that from 2001 until about 2003 I chaired a group of privy counsellors looking at the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, who produced a report that I am bound to say the then Home Secretary did not like at all, precisely because its drift was somewhat in line with some of the comments that have been made today and, I dare say, has been reasonably well justified by events during the intervening period. All that leads me to say that I, too, have been somewhat depressed—as, evidently, the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, have been—by the drift during the intervening period towards continued erosion of civil liberties.

I therefore take this opportunity to applaud the approach that my noble friend outlined on behalf of the Government. It might follow from that that I would be on the side, in this particular debate at this particular time, of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. I am not, for a reason that lines me up with the noble Lord, Lord Condon. Against the background of the shift towards a more liberal approach in these matters that appears to be taking place, the Government and my noble friend deserve the chance to produce a properly thought-through change in a well crafted bit of legislation and to not get forced into some of the knee-jerk stuff that we have seen too many times in the past few years.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I have a question and, although it may appear tangential, I hope your Lordships will feel that it is a question that I am justified in putting to the Minister. She spoke of the Government’s commitment to protecting our hard-won democratic liberties. Should that principle not be applied seamlessly and consistently across all areas of policy? If so, why are the Government not allowing the House of Commons the normal time to scrutinise the Academies Bill? I know it is not a Home Office responsibility, but there is collective responsibility across government as a whole. Parliament is where our democratic liberties are most importantly enshrined, and I would be grateful if the Minister would be willing, on behalf of the Government as a whole, to explain that.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak today, but my noble friend Lady Kennedy raised a point that I would like to touch on. It relates to how other countries hold people. When I was Security Minister, I discovered—I shall not say to my horror, but to my surprise—that an awful lot of those countries have other mechanisms whereby people are held for unbelievably long periods. The mechanisms are very cleverly crafted so that they do not break any rules, but I found them quite horrifying. It is very dangerous to make those comparisons either within the Commonwealth or within Europe. I can think of one European country not far away that has been holding someone for just over five years in a very clever way so that it does not break these rules. I am very glad that we have not gone down that route. I am also very glad that we are debating this point, as our party believes very strongly in civil liberties and we look at things like this as being very important. We did all the time that I was Security Minister—three years. We need to be careful about comparisons. I do not think we have anything to be ashamed of at all in this country.

My other point relates to English law, common law and the wonderful history of this country. It is perfect for a case where you have a murdered body lying on the floor, you investigate that, you find someone who is guilty and you charge them. It is not good when all you have is lots of intelligence. We have found that that intelligence is very often very accurate, but it is not evidence. That makes these cases somewhat different.

The way the Government propose to go forward is eminently sensible. Looking at these issues across the board is very important, but let us not rush into something. We have a good record here. Yes, it seems very harsh, some very horrible things happened and there are a lot of people who mean to do us very great harm. We need to bear that in mind when we weigh all this in the balance.

Terrorism Act 2000

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Thursday 8th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the counterterrorism review is currently under way. It has not got so far that we have cast in stone our future intentions on Section 44 —indeed, in the light of what has happened, we will accelerate our consideration of it. We hope to bring forward revised legislation on this point in the context of the freedom Bill, and that means the autumn. We do not intend to let interim guidance lie as part of public policy an instant longer than is essential and necessary. I am sure that the House agrees that it is an untidy situation and we need to clear it up as soon as possible.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, while we always welcome the alertness of the judiciary in interpreting the law and its vigilance in championing civil liberties, is it not also the case that judges are apt to interpret the law without particular regard for the practical consequences of their judgment? Yesterday’s judgment in the Supreme Court will surely make it more likely that there will be a significant increase in the incidence of gay asylum-seekers seeking to come to this country and, while we abhor the persecution of gay people in the countries from which they seek to escape, there will be significant practical and political consequences of that judgement. We now have the judgment on Section 44. I note that the Government are not complaining about it, but it does not make it any easier for them to fulfil their paramount responsibility to protect the lives and safety of our people. Is it not the case that the responsibility of Ministers is more difficult and wide-ranging than the responsibility of judges, notably to balance freedom with security? Should we not be wary of a written constitution that would greatly increase the law-making powers of the judiciary? Does the Government continue to believe that Parliament is properly the sovereign law-making body in this country?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I have no doubt that it is the duty of Ministers to balance security with our freedoms. It is also the duty of the Government, Ministers and government agencies to act proportionately. In this judicial defeat, if I can put it that way, we are in the area of proportionality, and we have to adjust. As for the supremacy of Parliament, yes, of course it is supreme.

Immigration

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Thursday 3rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I can recognise wedge-driving when I see it. I do not think that there is a commitment on the part of the coalition to repeal the Human Rights Act. We are certainly going to look at the possibility of a Bill of Rights which is in conformity with the obligations that we have under the Human Rights Act.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

What will the coalition do about control orders, of which the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrat Party and the judges were so critical in recent years? Now that it has responsibility for the lives and safety of the people of this country, what will it do when there is the apprehension of individuals who there is good reason to believe are terrorists; who cannot be deported because of our adherence to the European convention; and against whom the evidence to secure a conviction cannot be produced in court for good reasons of national security?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, there are two parts to that question. In the particular case we are looking at, I can assure the House that appropriate safety measures have been taken in respect of the individuals concerned. As for control orders, the House may be aware that the coalition has a commitment to review their use. I cannot go further on what the outcome of that review will be until such time as we have conducted it. However, it is clear that we would like to reduce our reliance on such measures as is consistent with the security of this nation.