Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Kamall Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Lansley. I do not say this because he is next to me and might heckle me, but because of some of the distinctions he made between rules, implementation of those rules and enforcement. I also thank my noble friends the Ministers and their officials, not only for the opening comments but for meeting with noble Lords last week, as well as the House of Lords Library and the various other organisations that have contacted us for their briefings, which have been very informative.

I refer noble Lords to my interests as laid out in the register, especially my roles on the advisory board of the Startup Coalition and as a non-executive director of the Department for Business and Trade, my work with a couple of think tanks that have published on competition issues, and others.

In some ways, I am not one of these people who is into instant gratification, but I remember being a member of the European Parliament in about the mid-2000s, when the EU Commission was considering the case of Microsoft. I remember being visited by lobbyists, including from Google, who were lobbying against Microsoft because they wanted to see a more competitive market. I remember telling them, “Just be careful what you wish for, because one day you might find other companies lobbying against you”. It has taken a long time, but it just shows how markets move. The other observation is how quickly these markets move—even definitions change. I am old enough to know when SMS actually meant text messaging; now it has a new meaning of “significant market status”.

At this stage I have only a series of questions, but before I raise them I would like to think about the matter at the heart of this debate, which is: how do markets really work? There are lots of debates about it. How do we react to markets where there are one or a few dominant firms? What do we do about dominant firms that compete not by seeking to offer the best product or service at the best price possible but by using their significant market power to block competitors?

I have to admit that, when learning economics in the past, I was fairly dissatisfied with some of the models that we were presented with. We were presented with a fairy tale of a perfect markets with perfect information—“If everyone had all this information, this is the way markets should work”. Then we were given a few variations—the oligopolistic market, the monopolistic market, the monosoponistic market, but they are not real markets—and then we were told by our economics tutor that actually markets do not work like that at all. There are market failures, and we need government intervention.

When I look at this from first principles, one of the views that I find attractive is the one that made me consider the hundreds, thousands, millions or billions of transactions that occur every day between willing buyers and willing sellers. It is the aggregate of these transactions that creates the spontaneous order of markets. Markets are not perfect, and there is imperfect and asymmetric information. Not everyone has the same information. Entrepreneurs are the key to these markets because they spot opportunities that others may not have spotted and they are prepared to take risks to take advantage of those opportunities and asymmetries, which the economist Israel Kirzner referred to as entrepreneurial alertness.

What happens is that, soon after, other firms enter the market and try to compete on quality of product, service or price. Governments from first principles can either get in the way or get out of the way. While I would prefer Governments to get out of the way as much as possible to allow thriving markets, there will be occasions where some of these new companies will become so large that they dominate the market. In these cases, we need to consider if and how regulations can provide a framework for competition and prevent abuse by dominant players.

I was very much taken by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, who eloquently gave examples of how companies that were once seen as entrepreneurial, exciting, new and whizzy are now abusing their significant market status. However, in considering the Bill we also have to consider how digital markets may be different from other markets, such as those for physical products, even though many physical products are sold online today. While a firm may be dominant in one part of the market—for example, on search or devices—it may not be dominant in another.

I have weighed up the advantages of judicial review versus merits-based decisions, and especially of getting the balance right between not punishing the big firms for being successful and innovative and their significant market status allowing them to become gatekeepers promoting their own products over rivals’ products or, as has been alleged, search engines and app stores imposing unreasonable charges. Like many noble Lords, I have come down on the side of judicial review, mainly to speed things up but also to avoid larger firms with their armies of lawyers delaying the process, which may lead to smaller competitors going out of business before the end of the case. However, we now see that firms can appeal this penalty of the judicial review process so, like other noble Lords, I ask the Minister to say how long the Government expect the appeal process to take. If a firm lodges an appeal, is there a danger that it may delay the main decision further? If a large firm wins a penalty, will it then have grounds to challenge the original decision delaying the remedy further? The Minister may well say that will not happen, and it would be reassuring to hear that from him at the Dispatch Box so we understand it.

Like other noble Lords, I am interested in the counter- vailing benefit exemption. What is the thinking behind the use of “countervailing” rather than “indispensable”? As many other noble Lords have said, it is legally defined. What extra does “countervailing duties” or “countervailing exemption” give to the Bill and what is the justification? Can the Minister assure noble Lords that “countervailing” will not act as a loophole for dominant firms to escape their responsibilities?

One of my other concerns more generally—I know it is shared by noble Lords from other parties across the House—is that over time Governments delegate responsibilities to agencies or regulators, as well as to international organisations. I teach politics, and one of the things we teach is principal agent theory, where a Government delegates authority to an agency or a regulator, but that regulator may pursue an agenda different from the one expected of it. There is real concern about accountability, but also about who regulates the regulator. That is why I welcome the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, and my noble friend Lady Stowell about accountability to Parliament. Perhaps across the House noble Lords should pursue the solution of a committee.

I suspect that the proposed power in Part 1 for the Secretary of State to review CMA guidance may be a way to tackle this issue. I would like to hear the Minister’s justification for granting this power to the Secretary of State and whether this may slow down decisions, especially in a fast-moving market. Does the Secretary of State really need these powers? Will noble Lords have to propose a timeframe for these decisions to be made if there is no timeframe for quick decisions? I should add that I have met people who work for the CMA and have been impressed by their knowledge and their understanding of some of these deeper philosophical questions of markets and some of the trade-offs they have to consider. It is not an easy job to balance innovation, markets and concentration.

There are a couple of other things. I welcome the action on subscription traps. There is probably consensus across the House. It recently took me more than two hours and disconnected calls to leave the broadband company that I was with. When I went online to read customer forums, thinking I had been hard done by, I realised I was lucky. It was like the Monty Python sketch: “Two hours! That's absolutely nothing! You don't know hardship!” I saw one comment where someone said they tried so often that they gave up for one year and tried again the year later because it just was not worth it; they just were not getting through. We also read of dirty tricks by companies disconnecting calls or leaving customers to hang on for ages.

I understand that companies are desperate to hold on to their customers. I understand why customers looking to leave companies or end their subscription are redirected to customer retention teams. When I was a consultant to telecom firms, the figure we used was that the estimated cost of new customer acquisition was seven times that of customer retention—but you keep customers by offering a service that they are happy with and they are happy to pay the price for. You do not keep them by engaging in these dirty tricks. In 2021, the Government promised to make it easier to switch broadband provider—as easy as it is to switch mobile operator—with a so-called one-touch switching system, but broadband companies failed to meet the target April 2023 deadline. Will the Minister say when one-touch switching will come into effect? Perhaps noble Lords have to ask what more pressure we can put on the industry and the CMA to look into this delayed implementation. As my noble friend Lord Lansley said, we have the rules but how do we make sure they are enforced? Why are companies dragging their feet on one-touch switching?

A number of noble Lords have talked about the last issue I will talk about, which is the fact that we have all been contacted by charities. I will not go into details because they have already been laid out by others, but I think we would like a response from the Minister on charity subscriptions. I add one word of caution. Charities may also behave in a way to try to keep their subscribers or donors. Let us not give them a blanket exemption, but let us understand the issue that they are lobbying on.

Overall, like other noble Lords, I welcome the Bill. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments and answers to my questions. I look forward to working with my noble friends the Ministers and other noble Lords in creating the appropriate framework so that the UK continues to be a leading digital market for local and international firms.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Kamall Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th January 2024 Grand Committee

I think the department’s letter to my friends in another place admitted, even while defending the argument, that it was still a straightforward JR. I am afraid that, to me, this is not such a review. In a judicial review, if you put in the word “appropriate”, the challenge can ask whether some relevant fact has been left out, or someone has acted unreasonably or made a material error on facts. Those are, as I understand it, judicial review-type challenges. They are not a matter of saying, “You could have achieved your objective in a way that would impose fewer burdens on us”. I support the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I have not put my name to these amendments but I want to speak in favour of Amendments 16, 17 and others in this group. After the first day of Committee, which I sat through without speaking, one noble Baroness came up to me and said I was unusually quiet—“unusually” being the key word there. When another noble Lord asked me why I sat through proceedings without saying a word, I said I had once been told about the principle that I should speak only if it improves the silence. Given the concern for my welfare shown by those two noble Members, I am about to violate that principle by making a few remarks and asking a couple of questions.

As this is the first time for me to speak in Committee, I refer noble Lords to my interests as set out in the register. These include being an unpaid member of the advisory board of Startup Coalition and a non-executive director for the Department for Business and Trade. I have also worked with a couple of think tanks and have written on regulation and competition policy, and I am a professor of politics and international relations at St Mary’s University. I mention that last role because in future interventions I will refer to some political science theories, but I assure noble Lords that I will try not to bore them. I am also a member of the Communications and Digital Committee.

I want to make only a short intervention on the amendments. Previous noble Lords made the point that we want to understand the Government’s intention behind deciding to change the word from “appropriate” to “proportionate”. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley for seeking to answer that question. I am not a lawyer, so I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for his intervention, which explained the legal context for “proportionate”. It has to be said, however, that at Second Reading I and a number of other noble Lords repeatedly asked the Minister to clarify and justify the change in wording. A satisfactory answer was not given, hence we see these amendments in Committee.

We could argue that this is an entirely appropriate response to what my noble friend said in Committee. Maybe the Government could argue that it was a proportionate response. It is a very simple question: can the Minister explain the reasons? Is it, as my noble friend Lord Lansley says, that there is something wider in “proportionate” than “appropriate”? Will the Government consider bringing forward an amendment that explains this—sort of “appropriate-plus”—to make sure that it is legally well understood? Can the Government assure us that it is not a loophole to allow more movement towards a merits appeal, as opposed to judicial review, which many of us have come to support?

I have some support for Amendment 222, in the name of my noble friend Lord Holmes, which seeks clarity on the appeal standards for financial penalties and countervailing benefits, but I know we will discuss these in a later group.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a really interesting and helpful debate, with a number of noble Lords answering other noble Lords’ questions, which is always pretty useful when you are summing up at the end. One thing absolutely ties every speaker together: agreement with the letter to the Prime Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, on behalf of her committee, about the need to retain the JR principle throughout the Bill. That is what we are striving to do.

It was extremely interesting to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, had to say. He answered the second half of the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie. I did not agree with the first half but the second was pretty good. The “whiff” that the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, talked about was answered extremely well by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. It was a direct hit.

The interesting aspect of all this is that the new better regulation framework that I heard the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, extolling from the heights in the Cholmondeley Room this afternoon includes a number of regulatory principles, including proportionality, but why not throw the whole kitchen sink at the Bill? Why is there proportionality in this respect? It was also really interesting to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, who unpacked very effectively the use of the proportionality principle. It looks as though there is an attempt to expand the way the principle is prayed in aid during a JR case. That seems fairly fundamental.

I hope that the Minister can give us assurance. We have a pincer movement here: there are a number of different ways of dealing with this, in amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Holmes and Lord Faulks, and the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, but we are all aiming for the same end result. However we get there, we are all pretty determined to make sure that the word “proportionate” does not appear in the wrong place. In all the outside briefings we have had, from the Open Markets Institute, Foxglove and Which?, the language is all about unintended consequences and widening the scope of big tech firms to challenge. What the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, had to say about stray words was pretty instructive. We do not want language in here which opens up these doors to further litigation. The debate on penalties is coming, but let us hold fast on this part of the Bill as much as we possibly can.

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[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, in my short contribution I will look at what Clause 29 adds and whether it is necessary. I suppose I am saying that I want to speak to whether Clause 29 should stand part. We might have to come back to that.

My starting point was Clause 19(10):

“Before imposing a conduct requirement … on a designated undertaking, the CMA must have regard in particular to the benefits for consumers”.


Unless I am missing something, that will include disbenefits, so the countervailing benefits form part of that consideration. I do not understand why it would not be the best drafting, or the best Explanatory Note, to say, “Under Clause 19, when the CMA is considering imposing a conduct requirement, it must have regard to any countervailing benefits of not imposing such a conduct requirement”.

That is the starting point but let us say, for the purpose of the argument, that Clause 29 is not really about the imposition of a conduct requirement in the first place but about what should happen when there is a conduct investigation. But there are more stages for the designated undertaking. When the CMA wants to impose a conduct requirement, it has to give a notice under Clause 21 and say what the benefits are. The undertaking can come along and say, “Well, we have countervailing benefits if you don’t do this”, so it is entirely open at that stage to raise the countervailing benefits clause. I do not know why it is called an exemption. It is not an exemption. There should not be an exemption from the regime; there should just be a balance: how is the consumer benefit to be maximised? Once that notice has been served, it is subject to a public consultation under Clause 24, and the undertaking can come along under Clause 24.

Let us say that all that has happened, and there is a potential breach of the conduct requirement, and the CMA initiates an investigation under Clause 26. When the CMA does that, it has to give the opportunity to make representations within a defined period. Even if the countervailing benefits have not been taken into account in the original activity, when a breach is considered the notice is issued and the undertaking can come along and say, “Well, actually, the consumer benefits are being delivered by this means, and it is necessary and indispensable”, or whatever word you use. We could include it, if necessary, in the guidance.

I do not think that we are quite finished, even then. Clause 27 requires that in the

“undertaking to which a conduct investigation relates … the CMA must consider any representations that the undertaking makes”.

We could have put it in there, because it has a right to make representations at that point.

After all these things, which get us to the point where it has been considered in the first place, considered in whether a notice of a breach should be issued, and considered in the notice for the conduct investigation, and been given the opportunity to make representations, why do we need another clause that says that there is this thing that is called a countervailing benefits exemption as distinct from, at each previous stage—and there are many of them—the benefits or disbenefits and potential consumer benefits from different requirements that are to be considered? Frankly, I do not see it—unless it is, as my noble friend said, that there is a “get out of jail free” card that can be played. If it can be played, it will be played, so I do not think that we should allow it to be played.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 36, 38, 39, 40 and 41. I have been trying to understand the reason for the current government position. One issue that I have thought about, and which I have written about in the past, is the notion of unintended consequences. Often a well-intended government intervention can make things worse. Many of you will remember the example of the Government of the 1990s introducing the dash to diesel, as it was supposed to be better for the environment—and, in response, we found that actually it made things worse. That is not to criticise the Government of the day, as it was well-intentioned, and many people supported the reduction of greenhouse gases.

One thing that I have thought about with regard to better law-making is how we ensure that there are safeguards in place for when there are negative unintended consequences. For that reason, I have some sympathy for considering whether the unintended consequence of a CMA decision could make things worse for consumers. However, like many noble Lords I am concerned that this is a massive loophole for large tech companies to continue to engage in anti-competitive behaviour or, as other noble Lords have said, slow down the process.

Having looked at the amendments and the Government’s position, I want to ask my noble friend the Minister a direct question. Could he explain what the Government mean by countervailing benefits and give some real examples, or hypothetical examples, of where consumers may be harmed by a pro-competitive intervention by the CMA? If that response convinces noble Lords, perhaps the Government could consider bringing forward an amendment based on Amendment 41 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. When we debate in Grand Committee, it always strikes me that we do so in the Moses Room —Moses, the great giver of the law. However, the biblical characters that I am more thinking of today would be David fighting Goliath, because it seems to be that a lot of the conversation around this group of amendments is about how we create a proper balance between the large platforms and small entrepreneurial providers. My mother was a small businesswoman; she ran two record shops in the Greater Manchester area. We could have been put out of business very easily if somebody had been able to delay some anti-competitive business action against us. We also have the judgment of Solomon here; he was quick in his judgment—there were no lengthy processes that took for ever and a day. I tend to the view that the Bill, as it entered the House of Commons, was probably at about the sweet spot, but let us get this right so that Davids have a chance amid the Goliaths. And yes, I apologise for not declaring that interest—I am called David.

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[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I said that the purpose of Clause 19(5) is to set the parameters for the design of conduct requirements by the CMA. Its purpose is to guide the CMA, not to bind the recipients of conduct requirements.

Amendment 48 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, would allow the final offer mechanism tool to be used earlier in the enforcement process. The final offer mechanism is a backstop tool designed to incentivise sincere negotiations about fair and reasonable payment terms between the SMS firm and third parties. It is crucial that there is room for good faith negotiation where disputes arise from sincere differences of understanding rather than deliberate non-compliance. Overly shortening the enforcement process would greatly reduce these opportunities.

We recognise, however, that some stakeholders may be concerned about SMS firms frustrating the process and refusing to comply with these conduct requirements and any subsequent enforcement. Here, the CMA could seek to accelerate the stages before the final offer mechanism, making use of urgent deadlines for compliance with enforcement orders and significant financial penalties where appropriate, ensuring that parties will also not be able to drag their feet and delay the process. In addition, interim enforcement orders can be issued on a temporary basis during a conduct investigation, before a breach has been found. They could be used to prevent significant damage, such as a company going bust, to prevent conduct that would reduce effectiveness of future remedies or to protect the public interest. Our regime aims to tackle the far-reaching power of the most powerful tech firms.

I know that my noble friend Lord Black noted the Australian legislation. Our regime contrasts the Australian legislation in that it has been designed to protect businesses and consumers across the economy including, but not limited to, news publishers. Alongside the final offer mechanism, the DMU will have other powers to tackle unfair and unreasonable payment terms via conduct requirements, ensuring that the final offer mechanism will rarely, if ever, need to be used.

Amendments 49, 50 and 51 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would allow parties to submit further final offers if the CMA considers that the first were not fair and reasonable. The final offer mechanism involves a binary choice between the two final offers submitted by the parties. It is the finality of the process that creates such a strong incentive for the parties to submit fair and reasonable offers. An unreasonable offer only increases the likelihood of the CMA choosing the other party’s proposal.

Introducing scope for an additional round of bidding would undermine these incentives and would only serve to delay the securing of fair and reasonable terms for the third party. As a result, we hope, for the reasons set out, that the noble Lord feels able not to press these amendments.

Finally, this group includes two government amendments, which are both minor and technical in nature, relating to Clauses 38 and 117. These amendments clarify that digital content is included in the meaning of the phrase “goods or services” when used in Part 1 of the Bill, including when mentioned under the final offer mechanism. I hope that noble Lords will support these amendments.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I apologise—I should have maybe intervened earlier but I did not want to join the barrage, as it were. When my noble friend the Minister writes to us, as he inevitably will, I wonder whether he can help us to understand the Government’s position on countervailing benefits by outlining what they really mean by that and giving some real or hypothetical examples of where consumers may be harmed by a pro-competitive intervention by the CMA.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed. I thank my noble friend for repeating the question and I apologise that I did not get to it earlier. I would be delighted to write and provide such examples.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Kamall Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 29th January 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to speak to this group of amendments. Other noble Lords have clearly made the case for the amendments in their names so I will try not to repeat what they have said.

Given that, I have three simple questions for my noble friend the Minister. First, having decided that appeals by firms should be decided not on merits in a court but by JR appeal, why have the Government now decided to allow this merits-based appeal on the size of the fine? I know that noble Lords have their own views on this, but I would like an answer and some clarity from the Government. Secondly, what evidence has come to light to persuade the Government to lay their amendments on this matter in the other place? Thirdly, how confident are the Government that, if a firm wins its merits-based appeal on the size of a financial penalty, this definitely will not give the firm a legal basis for challenging the reasons for the penalty and the conduct required by the CMA in the first place? I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s responses to these three questions.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, following this superb debate, I am worried about being able to add much to what has been said.

First, I want to pick up what the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, said. As ever, I agree entirely with half of what he said, but the other half is rather more controversial. This seems to be a growing habit. Exactly as the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said, if there is a solution to overreach, it must be through greater parliamentary scrutiny. The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, also referred to this and we have amendments coming down the track on it. Going back to JR-plus for the majority of decisions to be made under the Bill would be a retrograde step.

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It is quite a bumpy road ahead that we are going to try to travel through. I have named only three of a good number of obstacles. I very strongly support the attempt being made and very much hope that it will get an unusual degree of flexibility from the Government when we hear from them.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 81 in this group. I also wanted to speak to Amendment 77 in the previous group; I apologise that I was not here earlier to speak to it then.

I will refer to three notions from political science that may be relevant here. The first is that of the principal-agent theory and principal-agent problem. That is when a Government—namely, the principal—delegates authority to an agency. There is a huge body of work about delegating power to regulators, including the notion of agency slack, where the regulator does not act as was originally intended for a number of different reasons, raising the question of how you hold it accountable for that. Alternatively, it may perform very badly; for example, in some government departments there are concerns about arm’s-length bodies. How do we make sure that a poorly performing regulator is acting as it should have done in the first place?

The second notion is public choice theory. When people call for government intervention, they usually assume that officials and politicians are benign and will act in the public interest. Public choice theory suggests, however, that we must remember that individuals are also motivated by their own incentives and may act in their own self-interest at certain times—not because they are bad people, but because they are human. There are many cases of that; for example, with the housing market, most people agree that we need to build more houses, but many people just do not want their homes anywhere near those new houses. It is therefore very difficult in parts of the country for a candidate to stand up and campaign for more development because, according to public choice theory, they are acting in their own interest about wanting to get elected, even though they know that there should be more homes in the country. One of the fathers of public choice theory, James Buchanan, called it politics without the romance. It is when officials, who are well intentioned when the organisation starts up, just like politicians, suddenly do not act as was intended in the first place, because there are certain interests that conflict with each other. Therefore, how do we address that problem when it happens?

The third notion is the idea of unintended consequences. Given that we do not have complete knowledge, we should ask ourselves sometimes what happens if we are wrong. Are we absolutely sure that the JR appeals will prove a better way to achieve faster and more accurate decisions? We all support them, because many of the small challenger companies are asking us to do that—I have spoken in favour of them, as have many other noble Lords—but what if we find down the line that the appeals are taking longer, or that large companies are winning their appeals and the CMA has to start all over again? What if we find that it in fact takes longer than if we had gone to a time-limited merits appeal?

I considered laying an amendment asking for a review after three or five years, but I was worried about that, in case it became another loophole that large companies would use to undermine the JR appeals process, so I stood back. Another reason I did not do that was because the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—I thank him for this—said to me, “You may well be right, but surely this should be about the accountability of the CMA to Parliament, and Parliament can question it on the issue of why some of the cases it is bringing are being lost on appeal”.

The other question that many of us politicians across the spectrum are asking is: who regulates the regulators? This comes from people right across the board. How do we make them accountable? I suggest that my noble friend Lady Stowell’s Amendment 81 addresses those three concerns. I hope that I have laid out the reasons why I support her amendment, notwithstanding some of the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie.

I speak briefly to Amendment 82 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox; he has raised an important issue. When I was in the European Parliament, we looked at digital regulation as well as financial regulation. I was told by many national European regulators, including those in the European Commission, and other global regulators that they had a huge amount of respect for UK regulators. Quite often, they would use what we did previously. For example, early telecoms regulators basically took what we did in the 1980s and replicated it across many countries in Europe.

I teach students about intergovernmental organisations. We can see that even the more technical intergovernmental organisations, some of which are over 100 years old, have now become more political. Companies and Governments are starting to influence soft power, as another noble Lord said. The EU, for example, wants to be the technical standard for regulation; China also wants to get involved in international bodies and to set the standards in its own interests—look at the debate over CDMA a few years ago. This is not just in the tech sector; we see its officials active in many intergovernmental organisations. I am not sure that the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, is the right way to address these concerns, but he is certainly on to something and it deserves further consideration.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I am going to be extremely brief as the hour marches on: yes to Amendments 79 and 83. Most of the debate has been around Amendment 81 but I want to mention my noble friend’s Amendment 82 because the concept of lock-in is absolutely crucial. I am a big fan, particularly in the AI field, of trying to get common standards, whether it is NIST, IEEE or a number of them. The CMA’s role could be extremely helpful.

Of course, many other regulators are involved. That brings us into the landscape about which the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, has—quite rightly—been so persistent over the course of the then Online Safety Bill and this Bill. She is pursuing something that quite a number of Select Committees, particularly her one, have been involved in: espousing the cause of a Joint Committee, as our Joint Committee previously did. It is going to be very interesting. I am a member of the Industry and Regulators Committee, which has been looking at the regulatory landscape.

These accountability, independence, resourcing and skills issues in the digital space are crucial, particularly for those of us in this Committee. For instance, the role of the DRCF and its accountability, which were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, are extremely important. I very much liked what the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said about us having talked about Ofcom before but that we are now talking about the CMA and will talk about the ICO very shortly; for me, AI brings a lot of that together, as it does for her.

So what is not to like about what I think is a rather cunning amendment? The noble Baroness gets more cunning through every Bill we get on to. The amendment is shaped in a way that is more parliamentary and gets through more eyes of needles than previously. I strongly commend it.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Kamall Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 11th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Please.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. I am afraid that was the opposite of chivalry.

I want to speak to Amendment 153, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie. He and I have had a number of conversations about this. I refer noble Lords to my interests as set out in the register. Having written about competition law at EU level and taken part in debates on competition issues in the European Parliament during my many years there, I was very torn between the merits appeal and the judicial review. I was tempted by the idea from my friend in the other place, the right honourable Robert Buckland, of possibly a time-limited merits appeal.

Many of us fell down on the side of judicial review because the small firms, the challenger firms, were asking for it. They believed that it was quicker and more effective. We hope that it will be. That is why many of us have supported this. But we have to ask: what if we are wrong? We do not have perfect information. What if judicial review takes longer than envisaged? Some noble Lords have said to me that the Joint Committee of Parliament that the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, proposed would be much more effective in holding the CMA to account and ensuring that there is not a repetition of cases being restarted because they lost at JR. That argument has some merit.

However, we must take a step back and realise that, given that none of us has perfect information, we should be aware of the notion of unintended consequences. I have written about this a number of times over the years for think tanks. Often a well-intentioned government intervention that is supposed to make things better, which many people support at the time and that makes sense and looks like it will work does not turn out how it is supposed to but makes things worse.

In that spirit, I have been thinking about how we make better laws. How do we ensure that there are safeguards in place for unintended negative consequences? How do we make some redress to ensure that we change course, having thought that we were on the right course but having made things worse by not recognising the unintended consequences? In Committee, I said that I had considered tabling an amendment for a review after three or five years, or whatever. However, I am concerned that this would be seen as a loophole by the big companies, which would then hold off in order to show that JR was not working so that they could go back to merits appeal.

The noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, has solved that problem in many ways with Amendment 153. It is right that we have a review of all legislation to ensure that it has worked out as was intended and so that where there are unintended, unforeseen consequences, when it did not work as we had envisaged, we have those safeguards. A good way of doing that would be to have reviews of legislation such as the one that the noble Lord proposes here, to ensure that we could change course if it did not turn out how we intended.

I hope it will do. I hope judicial review will work. I hope it will be much quicker and we will have a much more competitive market. I hope the challengers will grow stronger, we will have more competition and see creative disruption and new challengers at every stage and consumers benefiting. Amendment 153 says, “Let’s make sure that we take stock to see whether legislation—particularly a Bill as important as this—works out as we want it to”. That is why I support Amendment 153.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Kamall Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

Finally, I turn to News International. I admire Rupert Murdoch, but I must tell the House that, having been one of the independent members of the Times supervisory board for nine years—a similar structure to that proposed by the bidders for the Telegraph—we had no real power. If we do not pass this amendment, we will send out a signal that if, after Murdoch’s death perhaps, News International is put up for sale, any foreign Government —perhaps Qatar or even Russia—would then be welcome to buy another chunk of our newspapers. We must protect our newspapers from that threat.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, a number of principles have been spoken about. I believe firmly in the principle that no Government, British or foreign, should be allowed to own a UK media outlet. When my noble friend Lady Stowell asked me whether I would support her amendment I initially declined, because I told her it did not go far enough. I apologise for that, because, as my noble friend said, the UK Government do not own any media outlet; why, therefore, should any foreign Government be allowed to do so?

We should also be absolutely clear that this is not anti-foreigner sentiment. I and, I am sure, many other noble Lords have no objection to foreign private companies owning UK news media outlets. Indeed, in my years in the European Parliament we used to refer to the Financial Times as the in-house paper of the European Commission, only to find that it was owned by a Japanese company.

There are clearly some tricky issues here in drafting the relevant law that the clever lawyers will have to navigate. For example, it is well known that Chinese non-state-owned enterprises often have strong links to the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. Indeed, some China analysts claim that there is little difference between the Chinese Government’s influence over state-owned and non-state-owned companies, so were a non-state-owned Chinese company to bid for a UK media outlet there would also be a number of questions. That is possibly a debate for another day.

In short, like many noble Lords, I am against any government ownership of UK media organisations, whether it be the UK Government or a foreign Government. For these reasons, I support Amendments 67 and 158 in the name of my noble friend Lady Stowell.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, despite the shortness of this debate, we have had some very fine and inspiring speeches. We on these Benches wholly support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. Indeed, like the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, I find it extraordinary that we do not have this already on the statute book. Given the importance of pluralism and freedom of speech in our media, the thought of foreign Governments impacting on our media in the way that is currently threatened seems quite extraordinary.

My main purpose is to associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. When he moved his regret amendment, he talked about the ownership by the UAE of a UK quality newspaper. I have spent the last 10 years campaigning for the release of Ryan Cornelius from a Dubai jail. He was unjustly imprisoned on trumped-up fraud charges, and his sentence was arbitrarily extended by 20 years in 2018, just as he was due to be released. He now faces the prospect of many more years in jail. I am all too aware of the reality that lies behind the pleasant-looking tourist Dubai. Parliament should definitely have its say before a UK newspaper falls into the hands of such a Government. All this is a result of the activities of a member of the royal court of Dubai, so it very close to home in the UAE. Not only do we as a party on these Benches wholly support this amendment, but I personally feel very strongly about the need for it.