Trade Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

I want to close on one element which the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, mentioned. He said that there was a further parliamentary power, which was, in effect, not to bring forward implementing legislation for an agreement the Government had signed. If our amendment had given an indication that we would block legislation implementing an agreement that a British Government had signed in the international arena, it would be scandalous that we would seek to use that as a mechanism. None of us wish to be in that situation. I hope that the cross-party consensus is that there is a greater voice for Parliament at the outset, that during negotiations there is greater input, that once those agreements have been reached we guarantee time, and that ultimately the House of Commons, as the elected Chamber, is able to form a view. I hope that this House sends a signal that we ask the House of Commons to consider this very carefully.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, first, we are sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, is not able to be present for the debate, but we know that he is following his Government’s rules by self-isolating.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, for introducing the amendment, which, as he very kindly said, is the result of discussions and debates among Members of the House from all sides, but most closely with the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, who has just spoken, and me, in order to try to reach out to the Government with a corporate approach which is not party political but tries to reflect what this House has a responsibility for, which is to ensure that we have good governance.

We have moved considerably if we consider our starting position, which was set out in the Bill that left your Lordships’ House in March 2019, as has already been said. It had a detailed and lengthy description of the sorts of processes which could underpin the approval of international trade agreements. It was done largely in a vacuum because the Government decided not to play. They had published a Command Paper but they were not interested in detailed discussions at that stage. It was very much a product of a “What if?” mentality in the sense of putting to the other place a proposal which we confidently expected to come back and on which we hoped there would then be discussions, which have indeed transpired, albeit at a year’s distance from that time.

I want to put on record that we recognise that the Government, particularly under the Minister, have moved, but I point out that it has been mainly on the practicalities of scrutiny, not on the principles, and this amendment before your Lordships’ House today is about the principles that should underpin the approval of trade deals on behalf of the United Kingdom. The changes that have been made constitute primarily a huge increase in the information provided to the committee set up to look at trade deals, and the engagement there seems to be going well. We took the view that since that was a work in progress it probably needs more time to bed down. It certainly needs more time in discussion with Ministers and the Government about exactly what information is going to be provided and how it is going to be disseminated and discussed. It was probably not appropriate to seek primary legislation at this stage, but we do not rule out the idea that it is something that should be codified properly as we go forward.

Again for the record, it is important to say that we have agreed, perhaps reluctantly, to accept the Government’s red lines in relation to any constitutional changes that might be envisaged in relation to trade deals. We are not challenging the Government’s power to initiate and carry on their trade negotiations under the royal prerogative. Many would argue that that is outdated and should be changed and that Parliament should have a role in that, but we have not chosen to engage with that at this stage. We are not challenging the relationship between international trade agreements and the CRaG Act 2010. Again, the point has been made very well already that it does not seem fit for purpose, but in the meantime it is the mechanism we have. The changes proposed in our amendment are appropriate for where we want to go. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, just talked about that and I agree with what he said. As I have said already, we will leave the committees to work through the procedures and processes to cover all the elements of a trade deal because there are many different styles of trade deal, many of which have not yet surfaced in terms of scrutiny, and we need to learn lessons from that. Time will tell, but in the interests of making progress we have framed an amendment within the Government’s red lines.

We are not the elected Chamber but, as I have said already, we have a responsibility to look at the constitutional proprieties. I am very confident that this proposal before your Lordships’ House, while I recognise that it is a major shift from where we started in 2019 and earlier on in the progress of this Bill, is an appropriate way of carrying on the dialogue with the other place in the hope of persuading them that there are issues here.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, did an excellent job of summarising the amendment in lieu, but I want to put on record again that this is not just something that has been dreamed up by a few of us in the confines of your Lordships’ House. Everybody in your Lordships’ House knows that there is an outside group of people—many organisations, individuals and companies—who would like to see a change in the way in which the scrutiny of trade deals is carried out. They want open and transparent procedures and they want scrutiny to apply to all our trade policy—not just the rollover deals, but for the future as well. They include, as has already been mentioned, the former Secretary of State Liam Fox, and indeed—not that much reference has been made to it—there was a very powerful speech in Committee in your Lordships’ House by the former Trade Minister the noble Baroness, Lady Fairhead. They both urged the Government to seek a way forward by engaging with the proposals before your Lordships’ House today.

I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, for their comments. They were very supportive, and I think they take exactly the tone that we want. This is a reasonable, measured and appropriate proposal which builds on the work that has been done in committees and gives Parliament its appropriate place. Parliament needs to have its say. What on earth are the Government afraid of? In closing, I just want to say that we do not regard this conversation as being closed. Should your Lordships’ House agree with this proposal today, we will be very happy to engage in further discussions with the Government, because we are not far apart on this.

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I would like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. I have listened carefully to my noble friend Lord Lansley displaying his normal forensic skills and to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, and his references to Dr Liam Fox. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, who I think courteously acknowledged the progress we have made in scrutiny, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. At least I made the noble Baroness laugh out loud, even if she does not think much of our negotiating skills. I have to say I think that was rather unfair to the officials who have been conducting the negotiations. Last, but certainly not least, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, displayed his normal wisdom.

As I mentioned, the Government have significantly strengthened the scrutiny and transparency arrangements in place. I fully acknowledge the pressure from noble Lords which led us to do that. I am sure that, over time as we consider more free trade agreements, there will be a continued strengthening of scrutiny and transparency. I am very pleased that the Government have undertaken to publish objectives and scoping assessments at the outset of negotiations for new free trade agreements with Japan, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and in due course—if the admissions process triggered by my right honourable friend the Trade Secretary is successful—the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Additionally, the Government will continue to keep Parliament and the public informed of progress on these negotiations through the publication of “round reports” as we call them, alongside regular briefings for parliamentarians so that they are kept informed and can ask questions of Ministers. I confirm that the Government will continue to work with the International Trade Committee and the International Agreements Committee to ensure that they have treaty text and other related documents or reports, on a confidential basis, a reasonable time prior to them being laid or deposited in Parliament under the CRaG procedure.

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We support these amendments. Should they pass, I hope the Government will take the opportunity afforded to them to consider full scrutiny and to listen to this House and to the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, that other people around the world should be listened to as well, because we lead in this United Kingdom; we can be a force for good on prevention around the world. I hope that this House will allow the House of Commons to reflect on this properly.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, despite the problems in relation to attendance and ability to speak that we have heard about, this has been a very good debate, full of passion and erudition. We do not have nearly enough Charlie Chaplin in our House, and so I was glad that my noble friend Lord Adonis was able to bring him in, even at this late stage.

Both opening speeches on the two amendments, from my noble friend Lord Collins and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, respectively, were moving, persuasive and, of their type, almost unanswerable. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, pointed out, the Government are in a hole here. The blizzard of meetings, calls and letters across three departments, and the tone of the arguments deployed by Ministers, are all indicative of a panicked response, stemming perhaps from a failure to anticipate the problem and compounded by a worry, as my noble friend Lord Collins saw it, about no longer being able to have their cake—trade—and eat it, with no worries about the ethical elements. If a concession is to be brought forward which is “Let’s set up a committee”, one wonders what they thought the original question was—it will not wash.

It is clear that these amendments need to be considered as complementary, as my noble friend Lord Collins and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, agreed. Together, they pose the question of when and in what way we bring in an ethical dimension to our trade policy. The Minister said at the start of the discussion that trade does not have to come at the expense of human rights, but it does—unless, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, warned us, good people follow Burke with action, not just nice words. As the noble Lord, Lord Polak, said, words are completely inadequate when you are facing a case of genocide.

We, the Official Opposition, will support both amendments when they are called. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, respects parliamentary authority now and it has been changed in a way which makes it more effective and more appropriate for its purpose. It sets in place a process to remedy the current defects in the way the international order deals with the egregious crime of genocide. The amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Collins rightly places a responsibility on Ministers to make a determination about crimes against humanity and to keep Parliament fully informed about breaches of compliance in relation to the UK’s human rights and international obligations. This seems to be a logical, balanced and appropriate approach to the issues that are before us and we will support the amendments.

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con) [V]]

My Lords, this has, quite rightly, come to be the most passionately debated issue. We have heard a number of remarkable interventions from across the House. Anybody listening to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, could not have failed to be moved by what he said, and I pay particular tribute to him, as I have done on previous occasions.

The Government have listened carefully before today, and we will listen very carefully to the points that have been put forward in this debate. First, I make it crystal clear to noble Lords that the UK does not have a free trade agreement with China and is not currently negotiating one. If it were to do so, any concluded agreement would be laid before Parliament, as is usual under the terms of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act, which empowers Parliament to undertake treaty scrutiny prior to ratification. This mechanism is available to Parliament now, as it has been since 2010, and it rightly does not turn on determinations being made in the courts.

I say without any minimisation that it is always open to parliamentarians to raise the issues of the day with the Government and to spotlight developments of serious concern, both domestically and internationally, on human rights, trade and myriad other issues. Parliamentary committees have existing powers to hold inquiries and publish reports and the Government welcome and encourage the searching and serious efforts of parliamentary colleagues from both Houses in this regard. However, there are critical, practical concerns with this amendment which I outlined earlier. I shall not repeat the arguments I gave in my opening, but they are real and serious. I must ask noble Lords to put aside the quite understandable emotional reaction that they have to this issue and to consider these arguments and the points that my noble friend Lord Wolfson and I put in our letter today. Of course, I apologise to noble Lords that the letter was not issued earlier.

There are serious wider issues affecting the issues in this amendment, as has been recognised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and others. This Government are committed to working with Parliament on this most heinous crime of genocide and to explore, and to continue to explore, options with Parliament in this regard as it relates to trade, but we must proceed without amending the delicate balance in the constitution or the role of the courts, no matter how terrible these issues are, or we will run the risk of undermining the very aims of those seeking justice.

However, yet again, I want to make it completely clear that the Government understand the strength of feeling on this matter. It is completely common ground between the Government and the noble Lords who have spoken that there must be enhanced scrutiny for Parliament on both the issue of genocide and the Government’s response to this most serious of crimes. I accept that point completely on behalf of the Government.

Accordingly, the Government are looking at how we can ensure that the relevant debate and scrutiny can take place in Parliament in response to credible concerns about genocide in defined circumstances. We want to work with Parliament to find a parliamentary solution and ensure that the Government’s approach to credible claims of genocide is both robust and properly accountable to Parliament. This is not a subject that can be swept under the carpet. It must be dealt with transparently and openly.

The Government’s proposal is that if a Select Committee takes such evidence it considers appropriate, publishes a report stating that there exist credible reports of genocide and subsequently seeks a debate on the report or is dissatisfied with the Government’s response, HMG will of course facilitate a debate on the report in Parliament. Such a debate would bring extreme focus to the issue in question. It would greatly increase political pressure on the situation in question and provide further scrutiny of government policy. I am convinced that that is the best way forward.

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[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we have had a wide-ranging debate and covered some important topics. I welcome the Government’s amendment made in the other place, but it does not go far enough. I fully support the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on the important issue of the public ownership of the NHS contained in Motion D1, and agree with the comments from the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, on taking back control and ensuring the safety of the NHS.

I wish to speak chiefly in support of Motion E1 on international trade agreements, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. This is an important amendment which was heavily supported on all sides of the House during the passage of the Agriculture Act. Others have referred to this. The standards of protection of human, animal and plant life and health should be at the top of everyone’s agenda. Following the Brexit agreement, there are significant numbers of statutory instruments being debated around animal and plant life and health. This is to ensure the welfare of animals, environmental protection and the prevention of importing into Great Britain animal and plant diseases.

However, all those safeguards are in secondary legislation and are therefore open to change and amendment by succeeding Governments or due to changes in government priorities. In order to be certain that standards affected by international trade agreements are safeguarded not only for our generation but for future generations, it is necessary for that to be stated on the face of the Bill and not tucked away in a plethora of statutory instruments which might contradict each other.

As everyone who took part in the Agriculture Bill and those taking part in the Trade Bill know by now, the UK has some of the highest animal welfare standards in the world. We are rightly proud of our plant welfare regulations that help to protect against the importation of foreign pests and diseases, which can decimate our native trees and plants. However, many diseases and pests are airborne. We are an island country but are geographically very close to our neighbours in Europe, so, despite rigorous import controls, we are vulnerable to airborne diseases.

The importation of high-quality food is at the top of the agenda; I am grateful to the Minister for his reassurance with regard to the Food Standards Agency, but that is not the whole picture. We have confidence in the FSA, but it is the monitoring of trade agreements that is of concern. Trade agreements need to be strict and monitored closely so that countries with endemic animal and plant diseases which are not currently prevalent here take steps to ensure that their outbreaks are kept under control. This will not be a failsafe mechanism for protecting GB from those diseases, but it will make a significant difference.

Polling shows that there is unequivocal public support for maintaining our current food standards relating to a few issues, including pesticides, antibiotics and other products. This approach must also be applied to other areas to safeguard against downward pressure on environmental standards in the UK—for example, those relating to chemicals and manufacturing.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, spoke eloquently to his amendment. It covers some vital issues, including standards on employment and labour. If he moves his Motion to a vote, we will support him. New subsection (2)(e) proposed in his amendment provides for

“online protections for children and vulnerable users.”

That echoes the theme of the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. There are many reasons why protection of children from online harms should be on the face of the Bill. We heard from the noble Baroness about the distressing case in Canada whose Government are not able to take action against a company called Pornhub due to the trade agreement between Canada, the US and Mexico. This has slipped in unnoticed and, as a result, the Canadian Government are powerless to protect children and young people. We should do everything possible to ensure that that does not happen here.

The UK has a proud record of protecting children and young people, but the rapid advance in technology and digital communications means that we must be vigilant on all fronts, including in the Trade Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, gave stark warnings about trade deals that are not rigorously drafted. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, did not indicate that she would press her amendment to a Division. However, should she do so, we on our Benches will be happy to support her.

Lastly, the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, spoke knowledgeably, as always, about public health and health inequalities being included in the remit of the Trade and Agriculture Commission and in the role of the FSA. Given the current state of public health caused by Covid and the health inequalities that this has shown up in very sharp relief, it would seem important for there to be someone sitting on the TAC who has expertise in, or some knowledge of, public health and health inequalities. As the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, said, sections of our communities are currently suffering considerable health inequalities.

No doubt the Minister will say that health inequalities are covered elsewhere and that this is not the place for them. However, confidence in the Government’s ability to ensure that health inequalities are covered elsewhere is currently somewhat thin. After severe cuts to public health budgets in previous years, we are now seeing just how dangerous those cuts were to the most vulnerable residents in the country and just who is paying the price for those inequalities. I urge the Government to seriously consider agreeing to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. I look forward to the Minister’s response to this debate and hope that he has some concessions to offer us.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a very good debate, which has demonstrated clearly why the celebration of our existing high standards, which might be affected by international trade agreements, is justified. We lead the world, and we should be proud of that. The speeches from the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton, Lady Kidron and Lady Boycott, and other noble Lords were redolent of that. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is right to say that we still have much to do on online harms. We on this side of the House fully support her on that.

We welcome the announcement by the Minister that he will table an amendment modelled on the one inserted into the 2019 Bill by your Lordships’ House. We have discussed this with him at length in recent months, and I know he has worked extremely hard to convince his colleagues in government—who are, I gather, often sceptical of what is going on in your Lordships’ House—to allow him to do so. However, why are we being offered the protections that are listed in Amendment 6B, which is a very full list, and includes in subsection (2)(a), (b) and (c) statutory protections that are already in place through the Agriculture Act, and also includes

“employment and labour … online protections for children and vulnerable users … health and care, and publicly funded data processing services and IT systems in connection with the provision of health and care”

but not also human rights? There are standards for human rights in this country. What have we done to deserve not having them in the list?

In addition, why is this limited to rollover agreements? We have heard that we now have signed 63, I think, rollover agreements, and we are about to engage in a whole raft of new trade agreements with the United States, Mexico and the Trans-Pacific Partnership. So what are we left with? Are we not in a bit of a dilemma here? Is the Minister saying that there will be stability protection for rollover agreements and that that has worked—although the information given in the debate by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is extremely worrying—but that statutory non-regression will fall away as soon as the first new trade deal is done?

What will be there to protect us? Are we back to the same litany: “Trust us. We have high standards. We are the envy of the world and these standards are our prop and support in future negotiations, so don’t worry”? Is that what we are being told? Does this mean that every time there is a new trade deal and it turns out that in order to complete it changes in primary legislation are required, the business managers of both Houses will be able to find time to ensure that the necessary legislative changes are brought forward? I am sure the Minister has enjoyed every minute of his time as Minister for Trade in your Lordships’ House, but is he really looking forward to spending all his remaining time arguing about whether changes proposed in, say, our online harms legislation are sufficiently necessary and proportionate to require changes in primary legislation, with all that that implies in terms of trying to make sure that both Houses agree with him and pass that legislation?

I put it to him that the wording of the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Grantchester, which is before your Lordships’ House today, provides a sensible, logical and coherent way forward, and I ask him for an early meeting to see whether we can find sufficient common ground in Amendment 6B to make it the basis of his promised amendment. If he is able to do that, he will have our full support.

However, we are where we are. I hope that we can build on this important concession by the Government, but I understand the Minister’s concern that it would be much easier to do a deal if we were working on a single amendment. We have worked closely with my noble friend Lady Thornton and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to get the essence of their amendments into my noble friend’s Amendment 6B and I hope therefore that they will agree with us that it is important to ensure that it goes to the other place and receives consideration—with, we hope, an alternative in lieu being brought back which will mirror its wording and cover both rollover and new trade deals—and that it would not be helpful at this stage to have other amendments put in front of the Commons because it will not be clear where we in this House wish to go. I hope I have persuaded your Lordships’ House that we want a composite amendment based on the wording before us and inclusive of all the issues that have been raised today. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is right to have raised in this brief debate the recent events which, as reported in the press, certainly seem to cast a completely new light on how arrangements are to operate within Northern Ireland, and in relation to goods travelling between GB and Northern Ireland. He also referred to the recent issue—a diplomatic issue, perhaps—to do with the vaccine and the relationship that had with the Northern Ireland protocol. I think, having been said, these points are made, and if the Minister wishes to respond to them that would be interesting, but I think they do not really bear on the future debate.

I will use this opportunity to thank my noble friend Lord Hain and his all-party group, which supported amendments both here and in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill—now Act—which were very useful in bringing to the attention of both Houses of Parliament, and to the wider world, the way in which some of the regulations and the statutory provisions being discussed and debated in your Lordships’ House would bear on the real lives of people who live in Northern Ireland, and the impact it would have on how they operate, how they live, and the wider context of the legislative framework within which they operate, including the Good Friday agreement.

I think the amendments have served their purpose in making sure that we are aware of these issues and keeping them in front of Parliament, as I have said. I think there is no more need for them, which is why we are not contesting the decision of the Commons on this matter.

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con) [V]]

My Lords, first, I completely associate myself with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, about the critical importance of maintaining the security of staff at the border in Northern Ireland, and his comments about vaccination. As the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, often does, he has managed to catch me out on a point of detail about his EORI numbers, but I will commit to look into the point he made and write to him about that as soon as possible.

In conclusion, the Government are fully committed to ensuring that there are no barriers or discrimination within the UK internal market, as this amendment seeks to prevent. We will continue to abide by the principle that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has espoused across these many debates.