Lord Wallace of Tankerness
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“( ) paragraph 18B (detention of unaccompanied children);”
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
I rise to move the amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach and will speak to the other amendments in the group. We believe that the Government have transformed the approach to returning families with children in line with their coalition agreement commitment to end the detention of children for immigration purposes. We now propose, through these amendments, to give legislative effect to our current policies on family returns by putting key elements of the new process into primary legislation.
Ending child detention was previously debated during Committee in the House of Commons as a result of amendments tabled by my honourable friend Julian Huppert MP. In Committee, the then Immigration Minister, my right honourable friend Mark Harper, agreed that the department would see whether it was possible, either in whole or in part, to put some or all of current government policy into primary legislation. On Report in the House of Commons, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced the proposal to reinforce the commitment to end the detention of children for immigration purposes by putting these four key elements into primary legislation.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I acknowledge the welcome that has been given to these particular moves. I assure your Lordships’ House that the Government take very seriously our duty under Section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 to carry out our functions,
“having regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children who are in the United Kingdom”.
As I indicated in moving the amendment, the intention is to lock in, on a statutory basis, what has been an administrative change in policy. I assure my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece that that is the purpose here; it is not to lay the pathway towards a change in policy. We believe that we have implemented a good policy, one that has commanded support from all quarters of your Lordships’ House. We wish to ensure that that cannot be undone in future except by a change to primary legislation.
Noble Lords commented on Cedars. I confess that I have not been there; that is something I maybe ought to do given what has been said about it in the course of this short debate. My understanding is that it could not be further in look or feel from an immigration removal centre such as Yarl’s Wood. It is important to emphasise, again, that families are held there only as a last report, for only a short period prior to their return and only after safeguarding advice has been sought from the independent family returns panel. Since Cedars was established, Barnardo’s has provided dedicated social work, welfare services and family support to children and their families there. I echo the compliments and praise paid to the work of Barnardo’s by a number of those who have contributed to this debate.
I will try and respond to a number of points. First, my noble friend Lord Avebury asked some questions about numbers. There are published data on voluntary returns, enforced returns and other outcomes in the family returns process. I will certainly send those data to my noble friend. I do not have details as to what the voluntary packages look like but if I can I will try to set out some of those, too. I think everyone would agree that if a voluntary arrangement can be made it is a far better outcome, not least for the dignity of the family. However, published statistics show that, under the old system, 1,119 children entered detention centres such as Yarl’s Wood in 2009, and 436 in 2010. By contrast, the latest statistics show that in the first three-quarters of 2013, seven children—at that time believed to be adults—were held in immigration removal centres and subsequently released following an age assessment. Some 64 children have been held briefly at the Tinsley House family unit after being stopped at the border and 68 children have been held at the new pre-departure accommodation for very short periods prior to leaving the United Kingdom.
On Amendment 9, my noble friend Lady Hamwee asked who a carer is in proposed new Section 78A(1)(b) and whether that included the local authority. No, the carer must be someone who has been living with the child and subject to removal as well. That rules out local authority carers but captures a situation where, for example, a child is part of a family unit with an aunt. In those circumstances, the family unit would benefit from the protection here.
My noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lady Benjamin raised the possibility of families being separated during the 28-day reflection period. As I sought to emphasise when moving the amendment, we will always seek to ensure that families remain together during the return. However, temporary separation may sometimes be necessary to safely ensure the family’s return. We would not separate a family solely for a compliance reason. It would always be where it was considered in the best interests of the child to be temporarily separated from their parent or where the presence of one of the parents or carers was not conducive to the public good. We would never separate a child from both adults for immigration purposes, or from one in the case of a single-parent family, if the consequence of that decision is that the child would be taken into care.
My noble friend Lord Avebury asked whether we can always give families a copy of the factual summary in the case. We have been working on making these documents more readily available. I am sure your Lordships’ House will readily appreciate the sensitivities involved in sharing these documents and the timings of the returns process. Indeed, one of the particular concerns is that individual members of a family may have provided information in confidence. There is a level of sensitivity around this, although as I indicated we have been working on making those documents more readily available.
My noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lord Avebury asked about the independence of the Independent Family Returns Panel. Appointments to the panel are made in accordance with the code of practice published on 1 April 2012 by the Commissioner for Public Appointments. This ensures that panel members are appointed on merit following a fair and open selection process, and the process does not compromise the panel’s independence. It includes an independent chair and other members with safeguarding and medical expertise, and provides independent advice to the Home Office on the method of return of individual families when an enforced return is necessary. The advice provided by the panel helps ensure that individual return plans take full account of the welfare of the children involved and that the Home Office will fulfil its responsibilities under Section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009.
I was also asked about the situation regarding the detention of unaccompanied children. I sought to make clear when moving the amendment that it is possible that a removal attempt will be unsuccessful for reasons that may be beyond the Government’s control. For example, a plane may develop a technical fault. When this happens, we accept that children should not continue to be held in a short-term holding facility for more than 24 hours. They should be released and given time to rest and recuperate. But the fact that a removal attempt is unsuccessful should not mean that such people are automatically entitled to stay in the UK. It should still be possible to enforce immigration decisions. It may therefore be necessary, after a suitable period, to attempt removal again and this may require a further, short, period of detention.
I reiterate what I said earlier. While it is vital that we enforce immigration decisions in these circumstances, we will not hold children for multiple 24-hour periods in order to achieve this.
One of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, relates to holding unaccompanied children who arrive at the border. Where a child is travelling alone or is identified as a potential victim of trafficking, we may need to hold them for a very short period while we arrange for them to be taken into the care of local children’s services. I do not have figures as to how often this has happened, but all border force officers are given training on trafficking and child protection, so they know what to look out for. To support this we use a system of risk profiles, alerts, and intelligence tools to give officers the information they need to intervene in cases of suspected trafficking.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked about a counsellor for unaccompanied children. It is the view of the Government that the child’s needs and interests are best protected by all the professionals already involved in the care-working. It is better that they do this together and that they each perform and fulfil their statutory responsibilities. Local authorities have a statutory duty to ensure that they safeguard and promote the welfare of children under Section 11 of the Children Act 2004 regardless of the immigration status of the children. I rather suspect that some of the valuable work done by Barnardo’s also helps support children, who I accept are at a very difficult time in their lives.
I think it has been recognised by those who have contributed to this debate that, in view of how difficult and sensitive this could be, the Government have taken great strides to try to put this on a proper basis. It is very different from what it was in the past. I recommend these amendments to your Lordships’ House.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his response to my observations on unaccompanied children. I wonder whether it would be possible for the Government to make provision whereby it was required that every unaccompanied child subject to a removal process should have a qualified and transparently independent counsellor specifically allocated to them to guide them through what may be a nightmare situation.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I hear the noble Lord’s point and I think I understand what lies behind it. I was trying to make a point about what our view has been. We should probably also recognise that unaccompanied children may arise in a number of different circumstances. For example, as I was indicating, some might potentially be the victims of child trafficking, which might raise a different set of considerations from others. If a professional team has already been involved in a case, we would not want to cut across that by bringing in someone new at that stage. I recognise the importance of what the noble Lord is saying; I will reflect on it and if there is more that I can add to the answer that I have given, I will write to him.
“Restriction on removal of children and their parents etc
After section 78 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, insert—“78A Restriction on removal of children and their parents etc
(1) This section applies in a case where—
(a) a child is to be removed from or required to leave the United Kingdom, and(b) an individual who—is also to be removed from or required to leave the United Kingdom (a “relevant parent or carer”).(i) is a parent of the child or has care of the child, and(ii) is living in a household in the United Kingdom with the child,is also to be removed from or required to leave the United Kingdom (a “relevant parent or carer”).(2) During the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the relevant appeal rights are exhausted—
(a) the child may not be removed from or required to leave the United Kingdom; and(b) a relevant parent or carer may not be removed from or required to leave the United Kingdom if, as a result, no relevant parent or carer would remain in the United Kingdom.(3) The relevant appeal rights are exhausted at the time when—
(a) neither the child, nor any relevant parent or carer, could bring an appeal under section 82 (ignoring any possibility of an appeal out of time with permission), and (b) no appeal brought by the child, or by any relevant parent or carer, is pending within the meaning of section 104.(4) Nothing in this section prevents any of the following during the period of 28 days mentioned in subsection (2)—
(a) the giving of a direction for the removal of a person from the United Kingdom,(b) the making of a deportation order in respect of a person, or(c) the taking of any other interim or preparatory action.(5) In this section—
“child” means a person who is aged under 18;
references to a person being removed from or required to leave the United Kingdom are to the person being removed or required to leave in accordance with a provision of the Immigration Acts.””
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, this has been an important and interesting debate. It is really about appeals, but I understand why many noble Lords have also used the opportunity to talk about student issues. It is an issue which was well canvassed during your Lordships’ debate at Second Reading. I think the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has amendments—or at least an amendment—down later in the Bill, where I am sure there will be an opportunity again to debate these matters.
I will of course try to respond to a number of the points that were made but it might be useful to put this into context—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke to the clause stand part debate and to other amendments with proposed new clauses—and to look at some of the issues regarding students in that context. The key point is that we believe that the present appeals system is complex and costly. The purpose of Clause 11 is to reform and streamline the appeals system so that appeals can be brought only where decisions engaging the fundamental rights of asylum, human rights or EU free movement are made. The clause will also set up an administrative review system to provide a proportionate and less costly mechanism for resolving casework errors.
Clause 11 changes the decisions that give rise to an appeal, the grounds on which that appeal can be brought and the jurisdiction of the tribunal to consider them. As I said, it is intended to simplify an overly complex appeals system. That complexity provides the opportunity for multiple appeals and allows removal to be delayed by the lodging of an appeal as of right where there is no arguable error or where there is a simple casework error that can be corrected more quickly and effectively by administrative review. I will come on to the wider points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, which I am sure we will debate fully. The Joint Committee on Human Rights accepted that there was a legitimate objective to reduce unmeritorious claims, although I accept that other issues arise with that.
Clause 11(2) reduces to four the number of decisions that can be appealed. We recognise the importance of an appeal to an independent tribunal where a case involves fundamental rights such as asylum and human rights, and the provision preserves an appeal right in these cases. A right of appeal is also preserved where the decision was to refuse a claim based on European Union rights. That appeal right is established by secondary legislation under Section 109 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 and therefore does not form part of the Bill.
A right of appeal is not the most appropriate remedy for cases that do not involve fundamental rights. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned that our internal sampling showed that 60% of allowed appeals against decisions under the points-based system are allowed because of casework error, and asked when that sampling was done. It was a 2% sample between April and June 2013. An appeal is a costly and time-consuming way to correct a casework error but it is not the case, as I think the noble Baroness said, that we are trying to stop a challenge where there is a casework error. There will be an administrative review system, which is what we have been debating and what we believe is the most appropriate remedy in these cases.
Subsection (3) repeals Sections 83 and 83A of the 2002 Act, which provide for a right of appeal on asylum grounds where asylum was refused or revoked but leave was granted on other grounds. They are no longer necessary, as subsection (2) provides for a right of appeal directly against the refusal of, or revocation of, asylum in all cases. Subsection (4) sets out the grounds on which an appeal can be brought. Clause 11 simplifies what is currently a complex system so that the only grounds on which an appeal can be brought reflect the decision under challenge. Subsection (5) restores the Secretary of State’s position as primary decision-maker on asylum and human rights claims and prevents appellants from raising new issues for the first time on appeal. Under the current appeals system, the tribunal has jurisdiction to decide such issues even though the Secretary of State has not had the chance to consider them. For example, a student appealing against the refusal of an application to study in the UK can currently raise asylum or their Article 8 rights, disclosing for example that they now have a family in the UK, which they can do under the present system for the very first time on appeal.
Making this change restores the role of primary decision-maker to the Secretary of State by providing that the tribunal cannot consider any reason that a person has for wanting to stay in the UK that has not already been considered by the Secretary of State, unless the Secretary of State consents to the tribunal considering the new matter. This provision does not prevent a person introducing new evidence about matters that the Secretary of State has already had a chance to consider. The tribunal will continue to be able to make its decision on the basis of all facts relevant to the matters that are before it, as required by case law. Reforming appeal rights will create a better process. Immigration judges at the tribunal will no longer need to consider caseworking errors. Applicants will have those errors considered faster and more cheaply, and those types of case will be removed from the tribunal system, which will reduce overall expense.
That is the context in which we are looking at the issue of students, although I accept and acknowledge the much wider issues that have been raised in this debate. I agree with my noble friend Lady Hamwee and with others. In fairness, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said as he opened the debate and moved his amendment that there was much common ground between what he was arguing for and the Government’s position.
We agree on the importance of students to the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lord Maclennan gave illustrations of the soft-power benefit that can come from that. Overseas students contribute a great deal to our economy and to the reputation of our academic institutions internationally. There is no limit to the number of genuine overseas students who may come here to study. As the Government have repeatedly said, this country welcomes the brightest and best. It is important to stress that.
On the specifics of the amendment of my noble friend Lady Benjamin, who said that she accepts nothing but compromise, I hope that I can perhaps give her more than compromise. Most of the data sought by my noble friend’s amendment is already published. Data on visa applications, grants, and refusals of tier 4 general visas, and on other visa categories, and corresponding admissions data for those entering the UK, are published quarterly by the Home Office. These statistics also show the number of visa applications made by students sponsored by higher education institutions as distinct from other types of education provider. In addition, the Office for National Statistics publishes quarterly reports on international migration statistics that now include estimates of the number of former students emigrating from the United Kingdom. The Higher Education Statistics Agency is responsible for publishing detailed data about non-EU students in the higher education system.
It might be useful to inform the debate with some statistics. I think that it was said by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones mentioned it, too, that there had been a drop in the number of international students. To put it into some kind of perspective, in 2010-11 the number in the UK was 428,230; in 2012-13 it was 425,260, a drop of less than 3,000. Australia had a drop of 10,000 and France of 2,000. There were increases in the USA and Canada, but the drop in the UK was relatively small and much smaller than that in Australia. There was specific mention of Chinese students. Between 2010 and 2013, the number of Chinese students increased in the United Kingdom by 24.5%. Admittedly in the United States the figure was 49.5%, but the increase in Australia was only 1% and in France there was a drop of 4.4%. There is a good story to tell. We are still an attractive proposition for people wishing to come and study.
Lord Clement-Jones
Perhaps my noble and learned friend can tell us what the figures for Indian students are.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, disappointingly the figures for India have gone down and there may be some historical background to that. The figures have gone down from 39,000 to 22,000 over these three years. They also decreased in the United States from 103,000 to 96,000 and in Australia from 21,000 to 12,000. It is interesting that there were decreases in the UK, Australia and the United States, which suggests that there may have been other factors. As my noble friend Lord Taylor said, there had been a big increase at an earlier stage in students coming from India, but I will certainly look for more detail on that.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Does this not demonstrate the value of having some independent statistics on what you might call world market share? The figures for India, the United States, et cetera, have just demonstrated that you have to compare apples with apples on this and we are not necessarily doing that at the moment. It would be very useful, to inform the debate, if we had more data instead of anecdotal evidence on these matters.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The noble Lord is suggesting that these figures are anecdotal, but in respect of the countries I have just mentioned—the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom—they are genuine figures, as far as I am aware. There is no way that they are anecdotal. Those for the United Kingdom were produced by the Office for National Statistics.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I honestly think that we had better call the day on this selective quotation of statistics. Why cannot we all just use the Higher Education Statistics Agency’s figures for the most recent year? Just picking figures out or suggesting that two or three years before that there had been an enormous increase and so on will get nowhere. This is not a statistical matter. This is about a growing market in which we are losing market share.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I did not seek to dismiss this as a statistical matter. I sought to put it into some kind of context: that over the period we have been talking about the drop was less than 3,000, and other countries saw a drop as well. The important point, which I will repeat, is that this country welcomes the brightest and best and there is no limit on the number of overseas students who can come to study here.
My noble friend asked whether students who receive visas go on to use them. All genuine students who qualify will be issued with a visa for the United Kingdom but of course they may ultimately decide to study elsewhere. I know that it may be of interest to my noble friend how many students may go to the trouble of applying for a UK visa and then choose not to travel, but I regret that that information is not available to the Government. I am afraid we cannot meet all her requests but a substantial number of the things that she was seeking in her amendment are already there.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I accept that and I knew that much of what I was seeking was already published. My amendment tried simply to paint the whole story. I accept that some of the painting by numbers cannot be filled in.
A few minutes ago my noble and learned friend said that there is a good story to tell. My short point is: we need to tell it. It seems that we are not telling it and I would like to find a mechanism to get it told. I passed my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones a copy of the Home Office press release that I printed off on Friday. If I were a journalist it would not tempt me to write the good story.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My noble friend makes a valid point. We collectively need to think about how to tell a good story better.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, asked about students staying and working after their studies. While studying, university students can work for up to 20 hours a week in term time and full-time during holidays; they can also undertake work placements. They get four months at the end of their course to gain work experience and after that they can stay if they get a graduate job earning £20,300 or more or are on one of our other postgraduate study work schemes. We have also expanded the post-study work opportunities available. PhD students can stay for a year to gain work experience and those who have a business idea to develop can do so under our graduate enterprise scheme, which I believe is the first of its kind in the world.
In trying to address the issue, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has moved an amendment which seeks to add decisions relating to higher education students to the types of decision that can be the subject of an appeal to the tribunal, as set out in Clause 11. The Bill already provides that anyone, including students, can appeal against one of the decisions listed in Clause 11(2): the refusal of a protection claim, the refusal of a human rights claim or the revocation of protection status. The amendment does not change that because it neither adds a new decision type to the list of decisions that attract a right of appeal nor adds to the grounds of appeal that could be raised at appeal. When I was in the other place, I used to cringe a bit when Ministers used to say, “Your amendment is technically deficient” when an important point was being made. Technical flaws aside, we believe the amendment is unnecessary. It is true that a student may no longer appeal against the refusal of an application for further leave to remain in the UK as a student under the Immigration Rules. We are doing that because the appeals system is slow and expensive for those with a genuine concern and presents too many opportunities to frustrate removal for those who seek to break the rules.
The Bill replaces the right of appeal with the administrative review process, which will provide a swifter and cheaper remedy for the majority of those students who would have been successful on appeal. For students who want to move on with their studies, I believe that a quick remedy is better than a drawn out one and that a cheaper remedy is better than a costly one. That relates to the issues which have been raised in this debate in relation to appeals.
Amendment 27 would impose three conditions which must be met before the appeals provisions in Clause 11 come into force. The first is that the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration must report on decision-making in entry clearance and managed migration. The second is that the Secretary of State must be satisfied that decision-making for entry clearance and managed migration is efficient, effective and fair. The third is that only once those two requirements have been met can an order for commencement of Clause 11 be laid before Parliament and approved by both Houses.
I understand the reservations that have been expressed about decision-making in immigration cases. They were expressed in the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and by the noble Baroness today. However, these concerns must be seen from the perspective of the end-to-end immigration system. In 2012, 14,600 managed migration appeals were allowed by the tribunal. The total number of managed migration decisions taken in 2012 was 291,827. Only 5% of those decisions were overturned. Although our internal sampling indicated that 60% of the points-based system appeals that succeed do so because a case-working error has been made, this does not mean that the majority of decisions are affected by error—far from it. The great majority of applications are successful. Of decisions taken in the UK, only 10% were refused in 2012. Fifty-one per cent of those succeeded on appeal, of which 60%, as I referred to earlier, succeeded because an error was made. Looking at decisions as a whole, it is clear that only a small proportion is affected by the changes being made to the appeals system.
The Home Office has taken action to address historic problems with decision quality. I recognise that these concerns have been genuinely aired. It is why the old UK Border Agency was abolished and its functions brought back into the Home Office. That has made a real difference and work is continuing to improve decision quality. The chief inspector himself acknowledged that positive steps have been taken to improve the process by which decision-makers learn from appeals in his November 2012 report on tier 4 student visas, which in turn led to improvements in process and decision quality.
Administrative review will be a central part of the process to improve decision quality, as its function is to identify errors in decision-making. The administrative review process is being developed to incorporate an element of feedback to the original decision-maker. In this way, administrative review will support the ongoing work to improve decision quality. I can also confirm that those who do the review will not be the same as those who undertook the original decision.
The approach adopted overseas for feeding back administrative review outcomes to decision-makers and improving decision quality is recommended as the right approach by the chief inspector in his September 2013 report on tier 1 visas. In-country administrative review is modelled closely on the approach overseas.
Meeting the requirements that the amendments seek to impose before commencing Clause 11 will inevitably cause delay. That will mean that those migrants whose decisions are affected by case-working error will have to continue to challenge decisions by costly and time-consuming appeals rather than being able to take advantage of a swifter and cheaper administrative review process.
Amendment 28 also relates to the commencement of Clause 11. It would require an impact assessment to be laid before Parliament setting out the number of appeals that will be affected by the changes to appeal rights introduced in this Bill and the costs that these changes would cause the First-tier Tribunal to incur. However, as was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lea, an impact assessment has already been produced and was published prior to the introduction of the Bill. It contains the information that this amendment seeks to have laid before Parliament. Given the existence of the impact assessment, I hope that the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.
Amendment 29 would require the Secretary of State to produce a review within 12 months of Royal Assent of the numbers of persons deported under Clauses 11 to 14. I rather suspect that the amendment is based on a misapprehension as deportations do not take place under these clauses but rather under Section 5 of the Immigration Act 1971. However, I assume from what was said that the aim is to question what difference the changes in the Bill will make to our ability to deport those whose presence is not conducive to the public good, including foreign national offenders.
The changes made in the Bill are not about large increases in the number of foreign criminals we deport but about the principle that Parliament is rightfully the body to set out the public interest in the importance of seeing foreign criminals deported and that the tribunal is the right body to weigh the strong public interest in deporting foreign criminals against the specific Article 8 rights of the criminal and their family. Success will be seen as these deportation cases progress through the Immigration Tribunal with outcomes that clearly show that the tribunal decision has had particular regard to Parliament’s legitimate view on the public interest. Case law will take some time to develop and settle once these provisions are commenced. It is not sensible to have a set period on the face of legislation for when a report must be presented when we may well at that point have only a very partial picture of the impact of the changes.
The statement of intent published in relation to the Bill also indicated that:
“Within a year of the administrative review process being established, the Home Secretary will ask the independent chief inspector to include a review of the administrative review process in his inspection plan”.
It is certainly my understanding that, off his own bat, the chief inspector can also take up any issue at any time. The Government have committed to asking the independent chief inspector to include a review of the administrative review process established under this clause, with that to be done within a year of the process being established. On the basis of these reassurances, particularly with regard to appeals, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment and that noble Lords will agree that Clause 11 should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I will be very brief because the noble Lord, Lord Singh, and others who are involved in the next debate have been sitting with mounting irritation, I seem to think. He has been very patient and I will not say much.
The point I am making here is that the cumulative effect on students and post-graduates is damaging. The evidence is there and we would be foolish to ignore it. I hope that Ministers will, between now and Report, look carefully at the cumulative issue. That is important. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, suggested that the drafting of my amendment is somewhat short of perfect. I asked someone who shall remain nameless about that earlier today. He said, “Don’t worry, Ministers always say the drafting is imperfect but, if the House’s views are made known to them, somewhere before Third Reading they will get it right. They have lots of lawyers who can get it right”. I do not wish to continue further now other than to say that we will have to come back to this issue both in the debate on Amendment 49 and on Report. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.