Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Mark Durkan Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 64, line 30, after “by”, insert—

“(a) an insurance company (within the meaning given by section 65 of FA 2012),

(b) a building society as defined by the Building Societies Act 1986, or

(c) a credit union registered under the Credit Unions (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 or the Industrial and Provident Societies Act (Northern Ireland) 1969.”

It will not be lost on hon. Members when they see an amendment to clause 1 at page 64, line 30 just how long a clause 1 we are dealing with, as we found in Committee. The Bill is essentially all in clause 1 and the other clauses provide the trimmings.

In Committee, I and other hon. Members raised a number of issues through probing amendments and in clause stand part discussions. One issue that I raised was the position of credit unions in Northern Ireland. As we heard on Second Reading and as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury stressed in Committee, the Government, with the agreement of the parties in Northern Ireland, have been at pains to make sure that any move to devolve to the Assembly powers in respect of corporation tax would not invite any large artificial or contrived shifts by large parts of the financial services sector. Nobody has been in the market for making sure that banks and other major financial services businesses could in any way benefit from surfing on to the devolved corporation tax rate that would be available to Northern Ireland under the Bill. Everybody is ad idem on that.

There is, however, a concern that the exclusion of the financial services sector at large could lead to inadvertent discrimination against credit unions or mutual building societies that are wholly and solely based in Northern Ireland.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to put on the record the very valuable contribution made by credit unions and mutual societies in Northern Ireland, which differs from that in the rest of the UK? In particular, can he give an idea of the number of savers and those who make use of credit unions and mutual societies?

[Mark Durkan]

Those are points that I shall touch on in my remarks, and I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members will do so as well. By way of response to the hon. Lady, I make the point that there have been efforts over a number of years. When I chaired the Assembly’s Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, we conducted an inquiry into credit unions in Northern Ireland, which have a very large membership base and a very strong savings base, far beyond those of credit unions here, which by comparison are merely developing.

The fact is that credit unions in Northern Ireland have been precluded from having as broad a range of services to offer their members, unlike credit unions here, and the key to broadening the range of services, of course, was to have credit unions in Northern Ireland regulated by the Financial Services Authority—subsequently the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.

However, while credit unions in Northern Ireland will be regulated from London institutions for those financial services, they still come under a devolved legislative window. That goes back to the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which deliberately ousted credit unions from the reserved power in relation to financial services through specific mention of the fact that devolution would include the Credit Unions (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. Credit unions are therefore in a sort of dual-control legislative and regulatory environment; they are registered under devolved legislation but regulated under financial services legislation of this Parliament, and rightly so.

However, that leads to some quirks and bumps in interpretation. A credit union Bill that would address some of those issues seems to be held up somewhere in the Assembly processes. In those circumstances credit unions are particularly concerned that they might become unintended casualties of some of the restrictions and exceptions that are rightly being introduced with the devolution of corporate tax by the Government and with the agreement of the parties in the Assembly.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman—indeed my hon. Friend—accept that in addition to that being grossly unfair to credit unions, mutuals such as the Progressive building society, which employs almost 200 people and operates solely in Northern Ireland, in fact its back office applies only to Northern Ireland, could end up being penalised by this legislation?

[Mark Durkan]

The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. I have to be honest that the slightly left-handed amendment I tabled in Committee could have introduced its own difficulties, as the Minister pointed out at the time. This less left-handed—I apologise to any cuiteogs in the House—amendment addresses the salient point in respect of credit unions and also takes in for the first time a point that I had overlooked in Committee: the position of a mutual building society based wholly and solely in Northern Ireland, such as the Progressive. This wider amendment, which thankfully has been seconded by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), is therefore designed to cater to both circumstances.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

It is important to recognise—I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree—that the point of that exclusion was to prevent the kind of brass-plating whereby companies simply moved their headquarters to Northern Ireland without moving any economic activity or jobs. That is not the case with either credit unions or mutuals such as the Progressive, because they are based in Northern Ireland and work there, creating employment and investment.

[Mark Durkan]

I take that point fully. That is why I am so glad that the hon. Member has seconded the amendment and spoken so strongly to its main purpose.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. and hon. Friends support his amendment, and I trust that the House will accept it.

[Mark Durkan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that support and endorsement and hope that the House will today accept at least the spirit, logic and compelling sense of the amendment.

As I said in my opening remarks, there is no argument from these Benches, or indeed from any of the parties in Northern Ireland, whether or not they are in the Executive or the Assembly, that large-scale financial services should be able to shift profits or any of their activities simply to net benefit from devolved corporation tax provisions. However, we want to ensure that legitimate, bona fide, not-for-profit mutualised activity is not penalised as a result of the restrictions that are rightly being included.

Credit unions and mutual building societies such as the Progressive have long-standing histories, have done nothing speculative, did not need any Government bail-out and had no questions about their books, or about anything else, so there is nothing untoward, whiffy or sniffy about any of their activities, because they were solid, prudent and sensible. There is absolutely no question but that the parties would want to see such organisations penalised and unable to benefit from the same sort of devolved tax rate that would be available to small and medium-sized enterprises. When we look at the scale of the individual credit unions—remember that they are regulated individually, not as some sort of conglomerate activity—we see that the idea that they would find themselves caught, for corporation tax purposes, in the same category as a large bank, for instance, is absolute nonsense.

However, there is a bit of a rub in this. I know that the credit unions and others have listened carefully to our proceedings on the Bill. For instance, on Second Reading the point was made that the provisions on some classes of back offices, even those working for financial services companies, could qualify for the devolved tax rate, and there seemed to be an inference that some of those lines had been drawn with particular operations in mind. For instance, Citigroup was mentioned on Second Reading, and it was suggested that we should all be assured that its jobs are protected and that that work would be subject to the devolved tax rate. That leads to a situation in which companies such as credit unions and the Progressive building society are saying, “Well, if the back office operations in Northern Ireland can qualify for the devolved tax rate, which obviously we hope will be lower, why should the back office jobs of the Progressive Building Society not qualify?”

The Progressive building society is being advised by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs that only 5% of its activity might qualify for the devolved tax rate, and it has been given no reason for that, other than that it seems to be the multiplier figure in the Bill. For no reason that anyone can understand or source, it has been told that only 5% of its activity might qualify. The Government are telling other financial services that they want them to work as hard as possible to maintain a high street presence, which the Progressive building society has done, including new investment in my constituency. It just seems bizarre that it should be penalised without a thought. That is why so many hon. Members are here to support the amendment.

[Ian Paisley]

Does that not really take the biscuit when the Progressive is told by the Treasury that only 5% of its back office will apply for an exemption? Its staff are scratching their heads, wondering what part of their work does not apply to Northern Ireland and to activity solely related to Northern Ireland.

[Mark Durkan]

Exactly. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. There is no known rational basis for it. In circumstances in which we are talking about arrangements aimed at preventing any artifice on the part of companies, just coming up with such an arbitrary figure does not particularly help. In circumstances in which we see that larger firms can be advised and assured that their existing operations of large and hopefully growing scope will be covered by the new devolved tax rate and will not be caught in the exclusion of financial services, it seems strange that the financial services entities that are not for profit, which are not taking money out of Northern Ireland but recirculating it into the local economy, would be penalised.

[Lady Hermon]

I have been watching the Government Front Bench and I know that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Minister of State and the Financial Secretary have been listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman, as they should. It would be helpful to us if any one of them intervened to explain how on earth only 5% of the back office work of the Progressive would qualify for an exemption under the Bill. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would be delighted if they did so.

[Mark Durkan]

I would be absolutely delighted. I would gladly accommodate that intervention, and not just in one instalment—I am prepared to take it 5% at a time if the Minister is willing.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

Such is the invitation, I cannot refuse. This is a somewhat complex matter. I can assure hon. Members that I will set out the thinking behind the Bill’s provisions on financial services in terms of its principles and, in particular, the application of the 5% test relating to back-office functions. Hon. Members are making perfectly reasonable points, but rather than attempt to summarise a complex issue that needs to be put into context, may I ask them to be a little patient, and I will be keen to give a proper answer towards the end of the debate?

[Mark Durkan]

We await with bated breath the Minister’s great revelations and technical epiphanies.

Whatever the Financial Secretary says about the complex dimensions of this, there is nothing complex about the simple logic and justice of the proposition that wholly and solely-owned mutuals and credit unions should be able to benefit from a devolved tax rate.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Assembly’s Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, which he used to chair, is also supportive of the stance that he and other Northern Ireland Members are taking? It believes that mutual societies and credit unions based in Northern Ireland should be included within the Bill and able to avail themselves of the same reduced rates of corporation tax as other Northern Ireland-based organisations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Durkan]

It is indeed the case that the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, through its chair, our party colleague Patsy McGlone, made a written representation to the Secretary of State that has been circulated to all Northern Ireland MPs on behalf of the Committee and is supported by all the parties on it. During my time on the Committee, all the parties worked to help navigate through the complexities of how we could alter the regulatory footing for credit unions in Northern Ireland so that they could offer more services, without abandoning the rightful devolved interest in relation to credit unions. The Committee’s representations have been endorsed with backing vocals from the Committee on Finance and Personnel in the form of a letter from its chairman, Daithí McKay. Again, the letter is on behalf of the whole Committee and supported by all the parties on it.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman alluded to this at the outset, but it might be beneficial to remind the Minister of the deep penetration of credit unions within Northern Ireland. There is a quantum of difference in relation to England, Scotland and Wales. There are tens of thousands of members of credit unions across Northern Ireland; they are an integral part of society and have been for decades.

[Mark Durkan]

I fully take the hon. Gentleman’s point. That was recently made apparent within the precincts of this Parliament when a delegation from the Irish League of Credit Unions gave evidence to the all-party group on credit unions, chaired by the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker). The league pointed out that nearly 450,000 credit union members are accredited to it in Northern Ireland. The credit unions in Northern Ireland have total assets of over £1.2 billion.

Credit unions do not pay corporation tax on their lending activity—perhaps that was one of the misdirections in my original amendment in Committee—but they do pay it on their investments. There are issues about how the regulators have treated that in limiting some of the investments that they are able to make, although my conversations with regulators suggest that we may be turning a corner of understanding and a slightly more relaxed interpretation may be on the way. In 2012, credit unions in Northern Ireland paid £3.75 million in corporation tax on their investments. The three credit unions in my constituency alone pay between them over £0.5 million in corporation tax on their investments. That is a significant amount of money to them given that it purely goes back to their members in dividend payments. It is not going off to make profits by being speculatively invested in property or in any dubious market activities; it is staying very much within the traditional meat and drink of credit union activity, and rightly so. On that basis, it would be perverse to treat credit unions as being in the same category as a financial services corporation that may try to move in from London, Edinburgh or elsewhere in order to artificially avail itself of a devolved corporation tax rate.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

We await the Minister’s more detailed explanation and context setting, but he said in Committee, on credit unions paying corporation tax on investment income and capital gains:

“As credit unions do not have a trade of lending money for corporation tax purposes, they are therefore neither explicitly included nor excluded from the Northern Ireland rate and as such are in no worse a position because of it.”––[Official Report, Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Public Bill Committee, 5 February 2015; c. 51.]

Can the hon. Gentleman help the House in dealing with the Minister’s point?

[Mark Durkan]

It was a bit of an enigma to some of us on the Committee. Although we asked the Minister about it, not much light was cast on the limbo status of credit unions whereby they are neither included nor excluded. Subsequently, I asked him about the power in clause 1, page 66, to amend the definitions of “excluded trade” or “excluded activity” or to make provision about the meaning of “back office activities”. That gives the Treasury a fair degree of leeway in making subsequent adjustments. I asked him whether that implied that some accommodation could be made regarding the particular sensitivities around credit unions—and now I add Northern Ireland-based mutuals, as we are all joined in making that case. I hope that he will be able to shed some light on that. If he can assure us that we are all working under a misapprehension and that our concerns can be allayed, then so much the better, but people want to see it clearly in the Bill and do not know why it should not be there.

The Northern Ireland credit unions fall within the legislative remit of the Assembly in respect of their registration and some of their activities, so it would be bizarre if it was denied the specific power to set their corporation tax rate in the same way that it would for SMEs, for example.

As credit unions are well embedded into the communities in which they are based, it just does not seem fair that they should be subjected to a corporation tax rate that is very different from the rate for the businesses they work alongside in those communities and neighbourhoods.

As we identify in the amendment, we want to extend the same consideration to the Progressive building society, for instance. Ministers may suggest that designing the clause to suit the particular circumstances of the Progressive building society would create the danger that we might somehow admit all sorts of others to the benefits of doing such activities. However, just as the details of regulations specify a threshold of business for small and medium-sized enterprises, the amount of employment, and the percentage of work time and expenses in Northern Ireland as opposed to elsewhere in the UK, so other measures could easily be built in to protect building societies and mutuals that wholly, solely or at least very largely base or centre their activities in Northern Ireland, rather than organisations that operate more widely and might artificially skew some operations to the north of Ireland to benefit from the corporation tax rates. If that is a concern or issue for Ministers, it could easily be accommodated.

It is clear that there is broad support on this issue from the parties in this House and from the wider range of parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Nobody intended, assumed or understood that credit unions and legitimate, bona fide locally based mutuals, such as the Progressive, would be caught in the Bill’s preclusions. We are seeking targeted and focused exceptions with the aim of ensuring that credit unions in Northern Ireland do not unduly pay corporation tax.

The amendment is an attempt by the parties to recognise that, unlike credit unions in Great Britain, which have been able to benefit from Government finance in the form of growth, development and modernisation funds over the years, credit unions in Northern Ireland have not benefited from direct funding. Credit unions in Northern Ireland are adjusting to the new regulatory obligations under the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority, which have created issues of corporate governance, training and IT standards, but none of that has been funded or supported in any way. One compensation that we might, with due diligence, seek to extend to them would be to make sure that they are at least exempted from the higher rate of corporation tax that is meant to apply to big corporates and businesses in financial services. That is the salient point of the amendment.

I hope that the Financial Secretary will acknowledge that amendment 1 would not trigger any of the difficulties that he said would have arisen from the original amendment in Committee. The scope of this amendment extends beyond credit unions to take in other legitimate mutual organisations, such as the Progressive building society—in fact, that is the only one I can distinctly identify—and that is included for a purpose. I hope that the Financial Secretary and the Secretary of State, who has received representations from Committees of the Assembly, will show some understanding. I look forward to hearing any explanation but also, more importantly, any assurances about how the Government intend to respond to such issues as the Bill is taken forward and as its various rule-making powers are operated in future.

[Mr Gauke]

As we have heard, the amendment tabled by the hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Belfast East (Naomi Long) aims to bring otherwise excluded trading profits of building societies and credit unions within the scope of the Northern Ireland rate of corporation tax. As it covers two different areas, I will respond to each in turn.

It may be helpful to remind the House that the design of the Northern Ireland regime has been guided by a set of principles agreed between the Northern Ireland Executive and the UK Government. The principles were agreed in the joint ministerial working group process in 2012. Once again, I am grateful to colleagues in the Executive for their co-operation and their constructive approach in those discussions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

The first point to make is that there are certain excluded activities. Lending and investment are excluded. Whether the entity concerned is a bank or a building society, if the activity is excluded, it is excluded. There is therefore a level playing field. Secondly, we are making provision for back-office services. It will be possible for a calculation to be made on the profit that is attributable to back-office functions by applying a 5% mark-up to the cost of those back-office functions. The lower corporation tax rate in Northern Ireland—assuming that it is lower—will apply to that. That will be of benefit to institutions, including building societies, in Northern Ireland.

I would also make the wider point, which has been made by the Northern Ireland Executive on many occasions, that the ability to set corporation tax rates will be good for the Northern Ireland economy. That is why the Northern Ireland Executive want the power. What is good for the Northern Ireland economy will presumably benefit institutions based in Northern Ireland, whether they be credit unions or building societies. That is the case that the Northern Ireland Executive have made to us.

When the Northern Ireland regime was designed, it was focused on trading income for very good reasons. Over the course of the debates in Committee, there has been a wide consensus that it is correct that it is focused on trading income. It would not be consistent with that approach for me to accept the amendment. I therefore urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw it. If he presses it to the vote, I will advise Government Members to oppose it. I understand the widespread view, which has been articulated strongly this afternoon, on the importance of the credit union sector in Northern Ireland, but accepting the amendment would be a mistaken approach.

[Mark Durkan]

rose—

[Mr Gauke]

I will give way one last time if the hon. Gentleman wants me to, or perhaps he wishes to speak once I have sat down.

[Mark Durkan]

Maybe both.

[Mr Gauke]

I give way.

[Mark Durkan]

Will the Minister indicate whether the powers in proposed new sections 357XH and 357XI of the Corporation Tax Act 2010, which appear on page 66 of the Bill, might in any way address in practice some of the concerns that we have voiced, as he seemed to hint in Committee?

[Mr Gauke]

I return to the point that I have made about the fundamental structure or principles behind the devolution of corporation tax rate-setting powers to Northern Ireland. I have given a fairly lengthy response, because I thought that it was appropriate to put in context the 5% computation in respect of back-office functions. There is the ability to come back to that. As hon. Members are aware, the OECD is looking, as part of the base erosion and profit-shifting process, at how much profit can be attributed to back-office functions. If memory serves, it is looking at a range of 2% to 5%, so we are at the upper end of that. There is the ability to make adjustments if there is evidence that there should be a higher mark-up for back-office functions. There is flexibility on that point if the evidence is presented to us and a strong case is made. However, we believe that 5% is the right level.

With that explanation, I hope that the hon. Gentleman can be persuaded to withdraw his amendment. If not, we will oppose it and I will advise my colleagues to vote against it.

[Mark Durkan]

I am disappointed by the tone struck by the Minister, because Members present—from all parties and none—have made it clear that we are not here to beat up the Government about this issue but are here in a spirit of understanding from parties across the Executive and Assembly. The Minister has called the Executive in aid several times, and he said that negotiations between the Treasury and the Executive have been clear about focusing on trading activities. Nobody—officials or Ministers—who conducted those negotiations on the part of the Executive intended to characterise credit unions and the like of the Progressive building society as trading operations, because they do not trade for profit—they are not conventional commercial trading entities in that sense. One, as a mutual building society, is clearly putting all its money back into its operations, and it all goes into Northern Ireland—none of it is speculatively streamed elsewhere. None of it has been lost, and no cost has fallen on the Government purse in any way.

Similarly, credit unions are not in the business of trading as such, and there is no way that they would allow the provision in the Bill to be abused by anybody else to shift activities or profits. Under credit union legislation, credit unions in Northern Ireland must show a common bond that must be wholly within Northern Ireland. There will therefore be no question of abuse or of stuff being shifted or anything else. The argument that the Minister tried to make for building society considerations would not apply to credit unions—certainly not to those that operate under the Credit Unions (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 or any other Northern Ireland-specific legislation that might come through the Assembly in future.

The Minister made a number of points about definitional standards that have been used. He portrayed the Treasury’s understanding of those terms, but as I have indicated, I have no sense that that was the working understanding or definitive intent of the Executive. After all, letters that have come from two cross-party Assembly Committees do not seem to have met with any cautionary advice from their respective Departments, or by Ministers saying, “Oh no, don’t upset this; there is an understanding and you will upset a delicate arrangement. You’ll open the floodgates and there will be all sorts of unintended consequences.” Everybody seems to be on board with the spirit of the amendment, just as they are largely on board with the spirit of devolving corporation tax for certain businesses. Nobody has an issue with the concept that the Assembly will have control over the rates of corporation tax for qualifying businesses, and that the Treasury will remain in control over all the rules on that and other things such as allowances. People seem to broadly agree with that architecture.

Where parties are concerned about the detail it is because we want credit unions and Northern Ireland-based mutuals not to be treated in the same way as the corporate and possibly multinational financial services conglomerate that the Minister seems to have in mind—the kind of people he thinks might suspiciously or dubiously shift activities. That does not apply to wholly grown indigenous entities that are rooted in the community.

The investment activities of credit unions are not for any speculative purposes but are to ensure that credit unions—on the basis of the same thrift that they encourage for their members—are able to show thrift and due diligence at a corporate level, and ensure that they are in a strong position to assist their members. Credit unions in Northern Ireland do not assist their members just to save; they also have a good working track record in assisting people with problems such as debt. That is currently an issue, perhaps because regulators do not want credit unions to assist people with debt in the way they have sometimes done. Unlike advisers who perhaps assist people in debt by creating circumstances in which they walk away from the debt and get discharged under various agreements, credit unions help people to repay that debt. They are in a stronger position to do that when they rely not just on the savings of their members but on sound investments. Those sound investments go back into the workings of the credit unions, and ensure that they are able to meet the new obligations and regulatory standards for which they are not getting any financial support, unlike their counterparts in Great Britain. It seems only fair and sensible to allow them that consideration in terms of corporation tax.

The Minister talks about credit unions as trading activities, but let us compare them with activities of a similar size—with small and medium-sized enterprises—in Northern Ireland that operate in the same neighbourhoods and district centres. Why should credit unions be in a different category from neighbouring trading businesses? They do not regard themselves as trading in that conventional sense, so why should they be penalised and treated differently?

If the Minister does not want us to put the amendment to the vote, will he at least indicate that he is prepared to listen not just to what we are saying in the House, but to future conversations in the Executive? After this debate and discussions in Assembly Committees, I think the Executive will make it clear that they do not like being called in aid in the way the Minister did when he lined them up behind his arguments, which I do not believe Executive Ministers endorse.

Will the Minister look at the provision on powers on page 66 of the Bill? It states:

“The Treasury may by regulations amend this Chapter so as to alter the meaning of ‘excluded trade’ or ‘excluded activity’ for the purposes of this Part.

(2) Regulations under this section may only be made if a draft of the statutory instrument containing them has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, the House of Commons.

(3) Regulations under this section—

(a )may make different provision for different purposes;—”

that is essentially what we are saying—

“(b) may make incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional provision and savings.”

New section 357XI continues:

“(1) The Treasury may by regulations make provision about the meaning of ‘back-office activities’ for the purposes of this Part.

(2) Regulations under this section may, in particular—

(a) specify activities that are, or are not, back-office activities, or

(b) specify circumstances in which activities are, or are not, to be regarded as back-office activities.

(3)Regulations under this section—

(a) may make different provision for different purposes;

(b) may make incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional provision and savings.”

If the Treasury is accruing to itself the power to make adjustments, and to interpret and respond to behavioural issues and practices to anticipate possible interpretative challenges in the future, it must show that it is willing to listen to one sensible and compelling interpretive issue that has arisen.

We have identified a clear wrinkle in the Bill that is not intended by parties in the Executive or the Assembly at large, or by independent Members from Northern Ireland in this House. Understandably, given the way that the Bill was scrambled forward—we know the issue was there, hung around and went forward and back, and we are legislating in relatively short order—it takes time to give the issue more consideration. If the Government say that because some concerns about interpretive openings might arise they are not minded to accept the amendment, perhaps they will assure us that they will listen to the points that have been made.

The Secretary of State has heard from the Assembly Committees. I do not know what she intends to write to them, but if she writes in the same terms as those in which the Minister addressed the House, by quoting the Executive, she will find that a strong argument comes back. The parties will be saying, “How dare you quote us against our own representations? We have no part of it, and that was not what we understood or intended when we negotiated”

[Mr Gauke]

The Bill is based on the principle of separating trading activities from investment activities, and for a very good reason to do with profit-shifting risks and so on. The hon. Gentleman rightly points out that there is the capability to make amendments in future to regulatory powers and so on. It is not for me to bind the next Parliament, but those powers do exist so there is the ability to look at arguments. I hope he finds that reassuring. The only point I would make, and it is the point I made both in Committee and today, is that there is a very good reason, accepted by all, for a divide between trading profits and investment profits. If we were to break that rule—a principle that runs through all legislation here—it would raise a number of important questions on where to draw the line. I am sure he recognises that, but I had to make that point.

[Mark Durkan]

I take that point from the Minister; nevertheless, the provisions in the Bill that I just quoted allow the Treasury to draw and redraw that line in future. There is no argument in principle with that, even though we know that it may be arbitrary and capricious as well. It may well be the subject of representations when it happens, but we are asking for the spirit of that power to be used and even reflected in the Bill, if possible.

The point we need to go back to is that the Minister relies on the definition of trading activity. People will find it hard to see that the Government can, for a good and understandable reason, make sure—and want to declare on Second Reading—that something like the operations of Citigroup in the Titanic Quarter in Belfast are catered for. In spite of the fact that we are talking about international financial services activity, that will come under the devolved corporation tax rate, but somehow, under this handcuff the Minister is creating in the definition of trading activities, credit unions and mutual building societies such as the Progressive cannot be. That is what people see as disproportionate, artificial and unfair. The Assembly clearly wants to know that, when it has the power to set a corporation tax rate for small and medium-sized enterprises and has legislative power over credit unions, credit unions will pay the devolved rate of corporation tax on their investment income. That seems fair and reasonable in the overall scheme of things.

I hope the credit unions in Northern Ireland will continue to thrive and grow, and no doubt they will. However, at no point is the amount of money they will be paying in corporation tax or the amount of relief they will receive from the corporation tax rate going to bust the Assembly’s or the Exchequer’s budget. We are talking about clear, definable, workable and absorbable margins here. The money would be used for good and understandable purposes, and never sold for profit or given away in gross bonuses or anything else like that. The same applies in respect of the Progressive building society.

The Minister said that if I pressed the amendment to a Division he would vote against it. I do not want to create a complete lock-in on the issue. I do not want the Government to find themselves locked in on an argument they cannot climb down from. I just encourage the Secretary of State and the Financial Secretary, who are both here listening to the debate, to stay open not just to the arguments they have heard from me and other hon. Members today, but to listen very closely to the arguments they will be hearing from the Executive, the Assembly and the credit union sector in Northern Ireland—not just the credit unions that are members of the Irish League of Credit Unions, but the Ulster Federation of Credit Unions and other credit unions too.

The Minister has heard the arguments, although he has perhaps not listened to them as well as I would have wanted him to. I do not accept the points he has made in supposed rebuttal, because I do not think they stand up to the facts. I also do not think they stand up to some of the terminology used in the Bill. After all, the Minister on a previous occasion, as quoted by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), said that in the Bill as drafted they are neither included nor excluded from the devolved corporation tax rate. It seems very clear from what the Minister is saying today that for the purposes of the corporation tax they do pay on their investment income, they will definitely be excluded from the devolved corporation tax rate. The Minister seems to have left us in very little doubt about that, unless he wants to indicate that, under the powers outlined on page 66, that may be subject to other interpretation in the future. That is something I would certainly encourage if the Government are not prepared to accept my amendment, or any other amendment that I hope will be tabled in another place.

That said, I have no wish to press my amendment to a Division at this point, because I do not want to put people in that sort of difficulty. I want the Government to move on this, and I will not give the Government an excuse to embed their position. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Third Reading

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[Mark Durkan]

I will probably differ in some emphasis and some recollection from the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), but I wish to begin on a point of absolute harmony, in offering thanks to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and all the members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, who tilled this hard ground over quite some time, some years ago. The hon. Member for Tewkesbury has rightly been generous in acknowledging the role played by his colleague, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), and I will do so, too.

The devolving of corporation tax to Northern Ireland has not always been the point of constant unanimity that it appears to be today. People did have different approaches and different concerns about it; back when we were negotiating the Belfast agreement or Good Friday agreement some of us wanted fiscal discretion as part of the devolved package, whereas most parties did not. My party was in the very small minority of those that did, and we were particularly clear about the corporation tax side of things. When we did get our institutions up and running, some of us argued the need for devolving corporation tax so that we could do more to maximise the north-south potential for inward investment on the island of Ireland, but many people resisted that idea of working with the south on inward investment. For that same reason, those people were very iffy about the idea of devolving corporation tax, as they felt that somehow it was going to separate Northern Ireland from the Union and be a chink in Unionism. I am very glad that, because of a variety of different experiences, positions have adjusted and moved on in that regard.

Reference has been made to the Varney review. When Sir David Varney was conducting the review of corporation tax issues under the previous Government, he made it clear that he was hearing different views from different parties in Northern Ireland and, in particular, from different Departments and from different Ministers. In fairness to the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), he acknowledged that at times he had different views and different emphases on this issue, as it is understandable that a Minister of Finance and Personnel would have. I served in that office—I see that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) is in his place, too—so I am conscious of the fact that cautionary pieces of advice need to come from that office about what some of the consequences might be. When I was in that post, I used to tell people that as the Minister of Finance and Personnel I did not suffer from depression but I was a carrier. So I can accept that Ministers of Finance and Personnel perhaps did need to sound some cautionary note, but this seemed to go beyond those Ministers; I am glad that we now have a much stronger position on the devolution of corporation tax.

We also need to be clear that the devolution of corporation tax does not put the north—does not put the Assembly—on a par with the corporation tax powers of the Oireachtas. Although it allows the Assembly to set the rates for certain qualifying businesses, it does not allow it to decide who the qualifying businesses are, and the Assembly has no control over any of the other rules that attach to that. The Oireachtas has a very different arrangement. Even when moves are made in the Oireachtas on the “double Irish” situation, which are long overdue and right, we also see a targeted use of things. A bit like this Government’s use of the patent box, the Irish Government have introduced the knowledge box. So there are other ways in which they are going to target competitiveness, and incentivise particular industries and sectors.

That is one issue I wish to address at this point in examining the overall impact of the Bill, because too often the focus in Northern Ireland has been that devolving corporation tax would allow us better to compete with the south. We need to recognise that the competition landscape within these islands has changed. I acknowledge that a regional economic dynamic has been provided under this Government, through initiatives such as enterprise zones, city deals and growth deals, which are creating some drive, regional economic traction and city economic traction. If Northern Ireland relies just on corporation tax and does not look to some of those other tools that are helping to drive regional and local economic growth, we will lose out.

I represent a city where many people go to work across the border for companies that are benefiting from the 12.5% corporation tax rate. That proximity—this is in our travel-to-work area—does not mitigate the fact that my constituency has the highest registered unemployment of all the 650 constituencies represented in this House, which shows that a reduced corporation tax rate alone is not a magic bullet and does not solve everything. As has been said, including by the hon. Member for North Antrim, the south of Ireland’s approach is not just about corporation tax alone; it is about investment in infrastructure and in education, not least in third-level education. Even this week, as we see that the Irish Government’s revenues are up and things are shifting there, and they are looking at and talking about possibly adjusting the spending and tax profile, the Tanaiste, Joan Burton, is emphasising that if money can now be spent, it has to be focused on infrastructure and on education, particularly at the third level.

We see that emphasis in the south, but not in the north. We need to recognise that, with regard to the Stormont House agreement and the wider landscape, all that glisters is not gold. The fact is that the Assembly and the Executive will have a difficult Budget landscape over a number of years and there will be a price on the block grant. That was touched on by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) when she referred to the letter from the Treasury to the Bill Committee—unfortunately, it arrived after the Bill Committee had completed its considerations. The letter, while reflecting the fact that negotiations with the Executive are ongoing, sets out a number of changes that will need to be made to the funding arrangements of Northern Ireland. I am talking about how the block grant will be set and how the Barnett formula will operate. More time needs to be taken to consider those wider consequentials and the implications for the devolved Budget.

In the Stormont House negotiations, I did question why we were not discussing the implications of a corporation tax rate cut or what the implications would be for the block grant. I was told by the First Minister that the rate cut was not an issue, that it would be modest and graduated and that it did not really need to come into our wider discussions about the strong budgetary pressures we were under. But that does not seem to be the case. His understanding and his reassurances were not reflected in the terms outlined by the Treasury Minister in the Bill Committee or in this letter and its attachments. There was an assumption that there would be a gradual working adjustment. In other words, there would not be a full hit in relation to the devolved envelope. But the Minister, both in Committee and in the letter, made it clear that the hit would be up front.

I joined the hon. Member for East Antrim—I understand that his absence is to do with the unfortunate bereavement experienced by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—in questioning the arrangements. We asked about the working implications of the Executive’s Budget year on year and of the setting of the block grant. We wanted to know whether adjustments would have to be made to reflect higher or lower tax takes. In the letter from the Minister, which was sent on 16 February, we see that those adjustments may be made two or three years later, whenever the full tax yield is made. That creates uncertainty. Given that corporation tax is, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed out, sometimes volatile, there could be further implications that we should acknowledge. We should not say that we do not understand them or that they were someone else’s fault. We need to go into these things with our eyes open.

Let me turn now to the wider position of the Executive in relation to the operation of corporation tax. Under the Bill, the Treasury retains not just ownership of all the rule-making and interpretive powers, but the commencement power in relation to corporation tax. We know that the timetable is 2017, but, as we heard from the Minister in Committee, the Government will exercise that commencement power when they are satisfied that the Executive has a sustainable Budget.

Over the past couple of years, the Treasury has made it very clear that it judged the sustainability of the Executive’s Budget on whether the Assembly would pass welfare reform legislation. That legislation may not have been to the Assembly’s taste or of a devolved design, but they would have to pass it as a way of proving that they had a sustainable Budget. In 2017, the issue will be whether the Treasury will use that same power to impose policy choices on the Executive. In the Bill Committee, I specifically asked the Minister that question. Let us take the example of water charges. We know that the Executive have consistently tried to prevail on the Administration in Northern Ireland to move to direct water charges in one form or another. When I was a Minister, the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Paul Boateng, wrote to us at the Executive twice, asking that we make that commitment. The Executive, on my proposal, refused to do that. Various other ruses have been attempted. During the period of direct rule, Northern Ireland Water was essentially set up on a conveyor belt to privatisation. The question is whether the Treasury would abuse that power and say, “Just like we used to say that you had a sustainable Budget only when you had absorbed what we wanted you to do on welfare reform, we are saying now that you only have a sustainable Budget when we see you levying water charges, raising revenue in other areas or changing your policy in relation to student finances.” It could be linked again to welfare reform. After all, we are now locked into a welfare cap. Luckily, we are being given a lot of leeway in how the welfare cap operates at the minute. If the truth be told, the deal that was reached on welfare reform as part of the Stormont House agreement—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I will say to the hon. Gentleman the same as I said to the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who spoke immediately before him: I have not been very strict in keeping him to the exact words of the Bill, but, as he knows very well, he is beginning to stray a little. I trust that, in concluding, he will address precisely the points in the Bill that relate to Third Reading.

[Mark Durkan]

I am sticking very much to the thrust and the purpose of the Bill. The Bill is presented as part of a suite of measures coming from the Stormont House agreement. That suite of measures included issues in relation to welfare reform. After all, we were told that there would be no Corporation Tax Bill unless there was agreement on welfare reform, so what I am saying is entirely consistent. Ministers have referred to these other measures when they have addressed this Bill, as have other hon. Members. The point goes to something that is in the Bill, which is the control that the Treasury will have over the commencement of this power and whether it uses that to impose other policy choices on the Assembly. Given that the welfare cap will be in place in the next Parliament—if it is supported both by the Government and the Opposition—it could well be a part of the working reference of the Treasury when it comes to make a judgment on Budget sustainability. In fairness, the Minister made the point in Committee that the judgment would be made on the sum of the Executive’s Budget parts and on a range of issues, but not on specific measures. He would not rule out it being used in that way. Again, in terms of due legislative diligence, all of us must have regard to how this might operate in practice. I am talking about not just some of the detailed rules as they affect businesses but how the overall Budgetary situation of the Executive is affected. There is no point in our popping corks about the legislative power over corporation tax that the Executive and the Assembly will have if we are not also alert to the very real budget constraints and the hard choices that might be imposed with that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Interventions are meant to be short. The hon. Lady has already spoken. It is perfectly in order for her to make an intervention, but it must be short, especially as she has, quite rightly, taken up the House’s time this afternoon. I politely indicated to the hon. Gentleman who has the Floor that he might consider drawing his remarks to a close. He chose to argue with me on the points I had made. I will speak less politely to him if he does not adhere to what I have said. He has spoken for a considerable time this afternoon. He is in order. He has the opportunity to conclude his speech. I am not saying that he must finish immediately now, but I am sure that he will give thought to other people in the Chamber.

[Mark Durkan]

I have no wish to argue with you now, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I must say that I was not arguing with you previously. I was simply clarifying the position and the background, as you have not had the privilege of sitting through all the debates on what was deemed relevant to the Bill and the wider Stormont House agreement.

The Executive and the Assembly will have to absorb the Bill’s wider implications. There are implications for the economy and for businesses, too. We have heard from many hon. Members that businesses are well seized of the need to try to take advantage of that. We have no problem with the regime on the balance between the rates and the rules, but we want to ensure that there is no undue assumption that the devolution of corporation tax to Northern Ireland alone will transform our economy. We need more investment in infrastructure and higher education and following the decisions in the Stormont House agreement it is not clear whether our borrowing power, which was originally designed for strategic capital, is now being used to pay for a voluntary exit scheme. There is an opportunity cost as regards the wider economic investments.

I do not wish to use the term long-term economic plan, but without addressing some of the other issues, including providing tools that compare with city deals, growth deals, enterprise zones and so on, and without a new level of commitment on third-level education and infrastructure, the Executive might well be getting the novelty of devolved corporation tax without strategic economic perspectives that are other than short term in nature.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy and for not arguing with me.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.