Public Procurement
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
I beg to move,
That this House considers that European Union Documents No. 18966/11 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to the Draft Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on public procurement, and No. 18964/11 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a Draft Directive of the European Parliament and the Council on procurement by entities operating in the water, energy, transport and postal services sectors, do not comply with the principle of subsidiarity for the reasons set out in Chapters 2 and 3 of the Fifty-seventh Report of the European Scrutiny Committee (HC 428-lii); and, in accordance with Article 6 of Protocol (No. 2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union on the application of principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, instructs the Clerk of the House to forward this reasoned opinion to the Presidents of the European Institutions.
This debate gives the House a welcome opportunity to consider the subsidiarity questions—pronouncing that word will be one of today’s challenges—identified in the draft directive on public and utilities procurement. It may assist the House if I give some general context on subsidiarity, after which I shall turn to the draft directives under consideration, focusing in particular on the subsidiarity concerns.
This is the fifth time the House has considered a motion for a reasoned opinion on subsidiarity. The first three related to financial services, and one related to justice. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), read into the record on 7 December—at column 313—a very good definition of subsidiarity. That is not only my opinion; the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), speaking for the Opposition, said precisely the same thing, so there is clearly general approbation on both sides of the House for that definition. I do not propose to trouble the House by reading out the definition again—[Interruption.] There is approbation for that from those on the Government Benches behind me. However, colleagues can, of course, read it for themselves, if they so wish.
The Government support the Lisbon treaty provisions to uphold the principle of subsidiarity and want to work with Parliament to highlight any subsidiarity concerns that the Government may share. Our explanatory memorandums on the proposals in question drew attention to those concerns, and I am very pleased that the European Scrutiny Committee—chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who is present—decided to pursue the matter with suitable dispatch. I also note that the National Assembly for Wales has written to the European Scrutiny Committee expressing concerns about subsidiarity in respect of the procurement proposals.
We have looked into whether other member states share these concerns, and I know of at least one case: the Swedish Parliament has raised similar concerns and tabled reasoned amendments on both proposals in very similar terms to those of our motion.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that the principle of subsidiarity is too little used and too little understood? We take it seriously, but many other European Union member states do not. Should we not take a lead on this issue more often?
Mr Harper
I agree. It is an important principle, and where it is sensible to raise it, we should do so.
Let me turn to the substance of the proposed directives. Although the motion before the House rightly refers to the draft directives as a whole, the specific issue on which the ESC has drafted the reasoned opinion is the requirement that member states must establish “national oversight bodies”. I will therefore briefly outline the proposals as a whole and the Government’s position, and then I shall turn to our specific concerns, which are shared by the Committee, about the oversight body provisions.
To recap the background, since the early 1990s there have been EU rules governing procurement by public authorities and utilities. In this context, utilities are certain bodies operating in the water, energy, postal and transport sectors, where those bodies have certain special rights or a monopoly position. The directives currently in force were adopted in 2004, and were transposed into law in the three United Kingdom jurisdictions in 2006 by means of procurement regulations. In line with the devolution settlement, the Scottish Government did that separately in Scottish law by making their own regulations; that is relevant, as I shall explain shortly. In addition, there are directives that govern the rights and remedies available to aggrieved suppliers or other interested parties if a public body or utility breaches the rules when awarding contracts. In the UK, those remedy rules have been implemented by amendments to the procurement regulations.
The directives require EU-wide advertising of many requirements and establish specific procedures to promote fair, open and transparent procurement decisions to promote open market public procurement across the EU, encouraging competition, innovation and value for money. The Government are keen to see that those rules are properly respected across the Community to ensure opportunities for UK businesses and a level playing field for all.
Perhaps at this point I should say a few words about the Government’s wider position on public procurement. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General announced a series of major reforms to public procurement with the aim of using the public sector’s considerable purchasing power to promote efficiency and growth. The reforms will fundamentally change the way in which the Government buy by providing an open door for current and future suppliers to discuss upcoming procurement opportunities; making it faster to do business with Government by speeding up the procurement processes to world-class standards and removing unnecessary wasteful practices; working with industry to identify and address any key capabilities needed to meet future demand; ensuring that SMEs can access the value of procurement; and reforming the EU directives that govern public procurement.
Following consultation by means of green papers, the Commission published proposals for new directives. Its declared aim is to modernise, simplify and increase flexibility in the procurement rules. The public procurement proposal covers five main areas of improvement: simplification of procedures; the strategic use of public procurement to meet new challenges, such as increased innovation and environmental protection; better access for SMEs; sound procedures to discourage corruption and favouritism; and improved governance procedures. As the European Scrutiny Committee’s reports mention, the Government support many of those elements of simplification and modernisation and I am pleased to note that the Committee also welcomes those improvements.
There are some areas where the Government will continue to press for further improvements through the negotiations, working with other member states when they have similar aims. Those improvements include a review of and increase in the financial thresholds as early as possible consistent with wider international procurement agreements and a specific time-limited exemption for mutuals, so that they can become established before being subject to competition.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
The Minister is setting out the rules to which the Government will work to ensure that there is free and fair competition across borders, but is not the rest of Europe ignoring all those rules and, in some instances, has no intention of opening up its markets to British companies? By not taking the same position, are we not disadvantaging our businesses?
Mr Harper
There are two separate issues. The first is what other European countries do, and the European Commission should be our ally in taking action to open up those markets. The second is what we do to open up competition, and I do not think that our adopting a protectionist strategy benefits us at all. Our companies trade globally, not just in the European Union, and we need them to be competitive and to be able to win business not just in the EU but in countries with fast-growing markets.
Mr Harper
Off the top of my head, no, as I do not pretend to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all public procurement for cars across Europe. We will not help our car industry by having people make procurement decisions to buy such cars regardless of other criteria. We need to ensure that we take into account a wider range of criteria and the hon. Gentleman will know that the Government set out our steps towards making procurement decisions, taking wider features into account. The European Commission suggests using public procurement strategically to meet challenges such as increased innovation and environmental protection to ensure that some of those extra, wider issues are built into procurement decisions.
Kelvin Hopkins
On this matter of trade, we do not so much have a problem with the rest of the world, but we have a serious trade problem with the rest of the European Union where we have a very big trade deficit. That is evidence that the other parts of the EU do not play fair on trade, particularly when it comes to currency. The Germans have persistently maintained a low parity for their currency over many decades, which has meant that their manufacturing sector has been built up at the expense of ours.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
A big issue that has cropped up in the past year is that of Bombardier. The question that the hon. Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) just asked is apposite because this is not simply a question of whether there are fair rules on procurement in terms of competition. Because a legal framework has been created, there is a special and fundamental requirement to comply with those rules because they are part of the legal process. The problem is not merely whether proper competition is being avoided but whether the law is being breached as well.
Mr Harper
I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. On the specific issue of procuring rolling stock, he will know that when this came up in the House last year the then Transport Secretary made it clear that the bids were being evaluated by criteria laid down by the previous Government. The problem was that we had to follow the criteria that were already laid down. The then Secretary of State also said that we would look at procurement in the growth review that was under way, and that we would look at what happens in other EU countries that are constrained by the same rules and at best procurement practices to make sure that, where appropriate, we include appropriate socio-economic criteria in the procurement decisions. That has to be done right at the beginning; we cannot set out the criteria and then change the rules part way through the process to favour domestic bidders. I have looked in detail at the particular case my hon. Friend mentions and it was made clear that the decisions that people are not happy with were taken under the previous Government and that we had to implement them. The alternative would have been to suspend the procurement process completely and go right back to the drawing board.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
I, too, wanted to raise the issue of Bombardier. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is growing interest in this among British citizens and that they want the Government to be more resolved to buy British goods, particularly British agricultural products, when it comes to supplying our armed forces? How will the Bill enable us to do that?
Mr Harper
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The Government have been doing a great deal of work on this, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been setting out some of the Government’s policies to improve that position. However, I shall not go into those in depth, because that would take us away from the focus of this reasoned opinion.
Kelvin Hopkins
The Minister is being very patient and generous in giving way. On Bombardier, is it not the case that with such complex and big contracts, it is very hard to make judgments between bids? Over time, the Siemens bid might turn out to be a lot more expensive and a lot less good than we first imagined.
Mr Harper
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I have answered the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone about the procurement process and I am not going to go into specifics about a particular procurement decision because I have not seen the detail and I was not involved in making that decision. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about such procurement contracts being significant and complex and there is a need to get the specification right in the first place. There has been a considerable amount of controversy about that particular case.
Mr Spellar
First, as a previous Transport Minister may I tell the hon. Gentleman that the Germans always buy German trains and the French always buy French trains? They make it very clear how they do that. Secondly, going back to police cars, I do not know what he does on a Saturday night but if he watches any of the police series from various European countries, he will notice that if they are from any country that produces cars they always drive their own vehicles. I do not want to get into specifics, but this is about the mindset of our civil service. The French, German, Spanish and Italian civil services back their industry. What is wrong with the culture of our civil service that it is always trying to do British industry down?
Mr Cash
After 28 years in this place one gets a sense for when a Minister wants to get to the end of his speech as quickly as possible, particularly when he is being assailed on all sides. May I just ask whether a full analysis has been made by the Government through the appropriate Department—not his Department, but the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—of whether there has been a real investigation into the way public procurement operates in this country as compared with the rest of Europe?
Mr Harper
The short and honest answer is that I do not know. I will find out and make sure that I or my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office writes to my hon. Friend to let him know.
I was not close to sitting down because I was about to set out the three areas in which the Government have subsidiarity concerns about the proposed oversight body—concerns that are shared by the European Scrutiny Committee. First, the oversight body was not proposed in the Commission’s consultation green paper or otherwise consulted on, so neither member states nor anyone else had an opportunity to comment on the proposal. The Commission’s impact assessment does not provide a clear or detailed justification. The European Scrutiny Committee expressed similar concerns about the inadequacy of the Commission’s impact assessment when we debated the common European sales law.
Secondly, the proposal for a single, national oversight body in each member state does not recognise or respect the different legal systems within the UK. As Members are well aware, Scotland has a separate and distinct legal system. Under the devolution arrangements, the development and application of public procurement policy and the implementation of public procurement legislation are devolved matters in both Scotland and Northern Ireland. As I have mentioned, Scotland has chosen to implement the procurement directives separately. The requirement for a single national oversight body for a member state is inconsistent with those settlements, and the Commission has not demonstrated any objective necessity for a single body in each member state.
The third substantial concern is the proposal that the oversight body should be empowered to seize the jurisdiction currently resting with the courts to determine some disputes about compliance with the procurement rules. That would be a judicial function, whereas the other functions of the body would be administrative or regulatory. If they were all combined in one body, that would intrude unjustifiably in national legal and judicial structures. That would be inconsistent with the UK’s legal traditions in which a clear distinction is made between judicial and administrative functions. The remedies rules that I mentioned earlier leave it to member states to determine the legal structures that enforce the rules. There seems to be no clear justification for departing from those now. This might affect other member states as well.
As I have said, a number of other member state Governments will have issues with the national oversight body, whether on grounds of bureaucracy, cost, incompatibility with existing arrangements or subsidiarity. The Parliament of one country has already set out similar concerns to ours in a reasoned opinion. The debate has been very helpful and the European Scrutiny Committee’s motion is very welcome. I look forward to listening to other Members and having the opportunity to support the motion and have this House take a sensible decision today.
Mr Harper
With the leave of the House, let me respond briefly to some of the concerns raised during the debate. I will try to keep my remarks as focused as I can on the motion before us, tempting though it is to range more widely over the whole gamut of European policy.
I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) for the excellent work that he does in chairing the European Scrutiny Committee. His wider concerns about growth, trade, jobs and our success as a country were exactly the focus of the recent European Council, the details of which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out so ably yesterday, when my hon. Friend was in the Chamber. From our perspective, the purpose of being in the European Union is to ensure trade, jobs and success for the United Kingdom.
I welcome the comments of the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher) and his general support for the motion. He referred to concerns that he had picked up about officials and “weaker Ministers” at the Treasury. I can only assume that he has reached those conclusions from his close working with the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who has great experience of the Treasury and must have encountered such things in the 10 years that he was Chancellor.
My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) entertained us, as ever, on behalf of the European Scrutiny Committee, leaving an opportunity for my hon. Friend the Member for Stone to range more widely. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset made an excellent speech that took us down one or two little byways. The House will be pleased that I am going to resist the temptation to engage in any kind of theological debate about subsidiarity, or even supernatural law-making. The National Assembly for Wales, to which he referred, had two main concerns: first, about the oversight body and subsidiarity in general; and, secondly, about specific issues to do with devolution. The Government agree with those concerns, as I explained in my earlier remarks.
My only other point is about the wider procurement issues. It is worth noting that recent analysis showed that UK companies won 17% of all the public procurement contracts awarded to companies from other member states across Europe. I will leave it to hon. Members to draw their conclusions about whether that is good or could be better, but it is a fairly substantial chunk of GDP.
Finally, on the subject of how other European countries do their procurement, there are remedies for aggrieved suppliers, which countries have to implement. I urge any British company that feels that it has been hard done by to use those remedies to ensure that it gets a fair bite of the cherry.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House considers that European Union Documents No. 18966/11 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to the Draft Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on public procurement, and No. 18964/11 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a Draft Directive of the European Parliament and the Council on procurement by entities operating in the water, energy, transport and postal services sectors, do not comply with the principle of subsidiarity for the reasons set out in Chapters 2 and 3 of the Fifty-seventh Report of the European Scrutiny Committee (HC 428-lii); and, in accordance with Article 6 of Protocol (No. 2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union on the application of principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, instructs the Clerk of the House to forward this reasoned opinion to the Presidents of the European Institutions.
Electoral Registration (Annual Canvass 2012)
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
Elections for Police and Crime Commissioners (PCC) and potentially for elected mayors in the larger English cities will take place on 15 November this year. These will fall in the period in which the annual canvass of electors normally takes place and, as such, raise a number of issues including concerns about the quality of the register available for the elections and the increased burden on electoral administrators of conducting a canvass at the same time as preparing for an election. The Government have worked closely with the Association of Electoral Administrators, the Electoral Commission and others to consider the options for addressing these concerns.
To better accommodate these elections, I am directing Electoral Registration Officers (EROs) to commence and conclude this year’s canvass earlier than would normally be the case in the areas where PCC elections are taking place (England and Wales excluding London). Following a positive recommendation from the Electoral Commission on 21 February under section 8(1) of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, I am issuing a direction today to all relevant EROs pursuant to section 52(1) of the Representation of the People Act 1983.
This will be a one-off approach for this year and the canvass in Scotland and in London will be unaffected. This is the best option available to provide for consistency for the PCC elections and certainty for all involved.
The Government’s clear aim is to ensure well-run elections and a successful annual canvass. Requiring the canvass to start earlier will ensure that there is sufficient time for EROs to carry out the full range of canvassing activities, consistent with their statutory duty to take all necessary steps to maintain complete and accurate registers. The Electoral Commission has developed specific guidance for electoral administrators on the practical implementation of the direction to supplement its existing good practice guidance on the annual canvass process.
I am placing a copy of the direction in the Libraries of both Houses.
Individual electoral Registration
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
I am announcing today the publication of the Government response to the pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation on individual electoral registration (IER) and changes to electoral administration.
Last June we set out our proposals for improving the electoral system through the introduction of IER in Great Britain.
As we said then, the electoral register is a key building block of our democracy. We see both registering to vote and voting as civic duties and we strongly encourage people both to register and to vote. We published our proposals for consultation and for scrutiny by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee (PCRC) because this is a vital part of our democracy, so we want our plans to be tested, and we want to be sure that the choices we make on the costs and benefits of the options open to us are well informed. We are grateful for the feedback that we have received not only from the Committee, but from everyone who took the time to respond to our White Paper.
In addition to putting our proposals out for testing, we have actively sought evidence from a range of other sources to inform policy development.
The research we funded the Electoral Commission to undertake has underlined the case for reform of the way people carry out their civic duty of registering to vote. We commissioned a literature review of research in this area from Dr Stuart Wilks-Heeg, a respected academic, which is published alongside this paper and adds further to the evidence base which informs our decisions.
We have paid attention to the lessons learnt from experience of Northern Ireland including the importance of carrying forward electors who have not registered in the first canvass under the new system, and their excellent work in registering new voters including working in partnership with schools to encourage young people to register.
The principle of introducing IER was widely supported by both by the PCRC and those who responded to the White Paper. We have listened to the feedback expressed about elements of the Government’s proposals and are proposing a number of key changes to the proposals included in the White Paper. In particular we want to ensure there are more safeguards in place to ensure as many eligible people as possible stay on the electoral register during the transition and that we can focus on those people eligible to vote but missing from the register. The major changes to the policy position are as follows:
Simplifying the Transition
Over the past year we have carried out a series of data matching pilots, comparing electoral registers in 22 areas with a range of data from public authorities. While the final evaluation is still being concluded, the evidence so far suggests that comparing entries on an electoral register with information held by the DWP allows us to confirm as accurate a significant majority (an average of two thirds for that data set alone in the pilot areas) of entries on the registers concerned.
Subject to the results of the full evaluation, and further testing this year with stakeholders, we are therefore minded to build on this to simplify the transition to IER for the majority of electors. It is now our intention that the name and address of all individuals on an electoral register when IER is introduced will be matched against the data held by public bodies such as the DWP and local authorities themselves. If an elector’s information can be matched, the individual will be automatically placed onto the new IER register and would not need to take any further action to be registered under IER. Only those people who cannot be confirmed automatically will be invited to provide identifying information to be verified. This should simplify the transition process for the majority of electors, reducing the number of people required to provide personal identifiers and will also allow EROs to free up resource to target the smaller group of people whose information cannot be matched and those who are currently missing from the register.
Compulsion and Personal Choice
It remains our firm belief that registering to vote is a civic duty; we have taken into account the concerns raised by the PCRC and those who responded to the consultation about the possible impact that an “up front” opt out could have on registration levels. As we made clear last year, we are minded to amend this provision and intend either to retain the “opt out” but require a person wishing to do so to complete a separate application, or to entirely remove this option altogether.
There has also been widespread discussion of whether it should be an offence for an individual not to register to vote when invited to do so. Despite the strong feelings expressed in the consultation on this issue, our view is that the evidence is not conclusive that introducing a new criminal offence will make any significant difference to registration levels, nor do we feel it is appropriate that we use the threat of a criminal offence to promote greater engagement in the electoral process. However, there are arguments for and against introducing a civil penalty for non-response to an invitation to register, and some important practical implications to resolve on how such a system could work.
We will explore these issues, including with our key stakeholders and in the light of this decide on the approach to take on both a civil penalty and the “opt-out”. We will set out our decision on this in the legislation when introduced.
Move the 2013 household canvass to 2014
We have listened to concerns that the gap between the last old style household canvass and the amended canvass in 2014 is too long. Therefore to ensure that a more accurate and up-to-date register is used as the basis of the new register we are planning to delay the annual canvass in 2013 to the early part of 2014.
We believe these changes, along with the others outlined in the Government’s response, will significantly strengthen these proposals. The full response to the PCRC’s report and the views expressed during the public consultation on our White Paper and draft legislation are set out in the Command Paper, but they are not our final word on the subject.
As we continue to refine our proposals ahead of introduction of legislation later this year, we will continue to work closely with stakeholders to further inform our thinking and develop our proposals. We have listened and learned, and we shall continue to do so.
Copies of this Command Paper have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. We will also be shortly publishing on the Cabinet Office website only a literature review on electoral registration, written by Dr Stuart Wilks-Heeg, and a high-level implementation time line for individual electoral registration.
Oral Answers to Questions
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
4. If he will publish an implementation plan alongside the introduction of legislative proposals for individual electoral registration.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
We will indeed be publishing an implementation timeline with our response to the Select Committee’s report. In it, we will consider implementing individual registration from the point of view of the elector, the administrators and the Government.
Tristram Hunt
The truth is that this is one of the most anti-democratic Governments of modern Britain. They are having the longest parliamentary term in the world outside Rwanda, and their rushed plans for voter registration now threaten to disfranchise Britain. As well as committing himself to publishing an implementation plan, will the Deputy Prime Minister commit himself to a phased introduction of voter registration, an end to the opt-out clause, and a full household canvass in 2014?
Mr Harper
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman received the memo from his Front Benchers, who took a much more sensible position during the debate the other day. The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) said:
“I welcome the process that the Government have adopted and how they are acting on this matter. We have had a draft Bill and a White Paper with pre-legislative scrutiny, and the Deputy Prime Minister has said twice on the Floor of the House that the Government are willing to listen to concerns”.—[Official Report, 16 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 475.]
I think that the hon. Gentleman ought to check what his party’s position is.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I have been in touch with my hon. Friend and neighbour about the case of my constituent Mr Brian Hudson following his removal from the electoral register in Weymouth and Portland borough council simply because he had a second home. He had been on the list for three years. Does my hon. Friend think it right that anyone can be arbitrarily removed from an electoral register on the grounds that he does not have a “proper” second home?
Mr Harper
The law makes clear that it is a question of where people reside, not necessarily a question of where they simply own property. It is up to the electoral registration officer to make a judgment about whether people actually reside in an area. If my hon. Friend’s constituent thinks that he has been hard done by, he should go back to the ERO with some evidence about his residence, and take the matter from there. There is an established independent appeals mechanism.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
The Government have said that they accept that registering to vote is a civic duty. They have also indicated that they do not believe that the threat of a criminal conviction is appropriate when an individual fails to complete a registration form. In line with those positions, will they now commit themselves to a system of civil penalties in cases in which a person has been wilfully unco-operative with an electoral registration officer?
Mr Harper
We are going to consider that, as the hon. Gentleman will know from the debates that we have had. We have made clear that we do not think criminalising millions of people is very sensible, and I am glad that he welcomes that view. We will think about civil penalties, which have been recommended by the administrators in the Electoral Commission, and will say more when we respond to the Select Committee shortly.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
5. Whether the commission to consider the West Lothian question will take evidence from Members of the (a) Scottish Parliament and (b) National Assembly for Wales.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
The independent commission that we have set up will be able to take evidence from anybody who wants to give it, within its terms of reference. I am therefore sure it will be willing to take evidence from Members of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales, but that is a matter for the commission.
Sandra Osborne
I thank the Minister for that answer. I am sure he will be aware that constitutional change in one area can affect other areas. How might any changes suggested by his West Lothian commission affect reform of the House of Lords?
Mr Harper
I am not sure that those two matters are connected at all. The commission’s terms of reference are specifically to consider the effects and consequences for the House of Commons of the devolution arrangements in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady will know that we have appointed experts to the commission. They will come back to the Government with their recommendations, and I have committed then to talk to all parties in this House about how we might proceed further.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Will the commission be able to consider what is really the Berwick-upon-Tweed question: how has it come about over so many years that Scotland seems to have had more money for schools and roads, and a great deal of say in the affairs of England?
Mr Harper
Specifically, we have made it clear that the commission will not be able to look at the financial questions. The Government have committed to resolving them, but we have made it clear that the deficit must be dealt with first, and then those other matters will be taken forward by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
6. What plans he has to improve the completeness and accuracy of the electoral register.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
In order to deliver a more complete and accurate electoral register, we will introduce our proposals for individual registration, the principle of which is supported on both sides of the House. We have published our proposals for pre-legislative scrutiny and we will respond to the Select Committee shortly. I hope my hon. Friend will welcome these changes.
Paul Uppal
I welcome the Government’s initiative on individual voter registration, especially the provision to deny the postal vote to people who are unable to provide national insurance details. Does my hon. Friend agree that we might expand that principle by considering the option of requiring individual voter ID from people voting at polling stations?
Mr Harper
The Government do not have any plans to introduce a requirement for voters to present ID when they vote. We think the current arrangements get the balance right between accessibility and security. We keep these matters under review, however. My hon. Friend will know that there is such a requirement in Northern Ireland, which has a different history in this regard, but it is not in the Government’s plans at present.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The number of unregistered voters increased from 6 million in December 2010 to 8.5 million in April 2011, so there has been a huge 2.5 million extra unregistered voters in the space of four months. Will that devastatingly high figure increase still further as a consequence of the rapid introduction of individual electoral registration?
Mr Harper
The hon. Gentleman should acknowledge that the research that the Electoral Commission carried out—and which was funded and conducted at the initiative of the Government so that we could see the state of the existing registers—should shake any Members who had a sense of complacency, and who thought the existing system was perfect, out of that complacency. These findings show that there is an urgent need to move to a more accurate and complete system. If the hon. Gentleman waits for the response that we will give to the Select Committee report, he will learn that we have acknowledged some of those concerns, and I think he will be pleasantly surprised by our response.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
13. Following the data-matching pilots, what assurances can the Minister give that information and data held by the Department for Work and Pensions will be compatible with the current systems used by electoral registration officers throughout the country?
Mr Harper
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. The initial response to the data-matching pilots has been very positive. The Electoral Commission will publish its own independent assessment in March, and we will be saying a little more about that in our response to the Select Committee. Data matching opens up ways of ensuring that the register is more complete and accurate and requires voters to do less work.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Minister assure me that he and his colleagues will carefully examine the implementation of the individual electoral registration which has already taken place in Northern Ireland, that any lessons will be learned and that any necessary changes will be made to enhance the situation?
Mr Harper
I can absolutely give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We have already set out some of the lessons we have learned, such as on implementing a carry-forward from the beginning. I have visited Northern Ireland, talked to the chief electoral officer there, looked at some of the very exciting outreach work that people there are doing to get younger voters registered and talked to people about how data matching works. We have learned lessons already and we will continue to work with people in Northern Ireland.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
7. What recent progress he has made on establishing the commission to consider the West Lothian question.
Statutory Register of Lobbyists
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
Today the Government have launched a consultation on initial proposals to introduce a statutory register of lobbyists. The consultation will run until 13 April 2012 and a consultation paper (Cm 8233) is available on the Cabinet Office website. A copy of the consultation document will also be placed in the House Library.
We believe the introduction of a statutory register will be an important step towards increasing transparency and rebuilding public trust in politics. Our initial proposals are that any individual or firm who lobbies for a third party for money must put themselves on the register and disclose their clients. We think it is important that the public should be able to see who is lobbying Ministers, and for whom. That is why there is already a requirement that Ministers should publish details of who they are meeting, at least quarterly. We believe it is right that lobbying companies should disclose who is paying them to lobby Government.
We suggest that individuals or companies lobbying for themselves should not be covered by a register because the disclosure requirements on Ministers will show this activity already. We hope for a wide range of responses on all our proposals, but we are particularly interested to hear views on whether organisations like NGOs and charities, which do not lobby for others for money but are advancing agendas, should be covered. We are also consulting as to how, if at all, trade union activities should be covered.
The Government are clear that it is not our intention to propose that individuals taking up issues with Ministers, or companies discussing matters of mutual interest with Government should be covered by the requirement to register. These are vital democratic functions and covered by the disclosure requirement on Government Departments. We are interested in views on whether our definitions meet this objective.
Any proposals for a statutory register should not impinge on the ability of charities to lobby or on a constituent’s ability to lobby their own MP.
This is a complicated area, and we are hoping for a wide range of consultation responses to help us produce proposals which are proportionate and practical.
Devolution
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
The coalition programme for government includes a commitment to establish a commission to consider the “West Lothian question”. In my statement of 8 September 2011, Official Report, column 27WS, I gave some details of the forthcoming commission and undertook to return to the House with further detail including the terms of reference for the commission. This statement sets out the further detail.
The “Commission on the consequences of devolution for the House of Commons” will consist of a panel of six independent, non-partisan experts, chaired by Sir William McKay, a former Clerk of this House. The other five commission members, whose backgrounds are in law, academia and constitutional development in the UK and the EU, are: Sir Stephen Laws, Sir Geoffrey Bowman, Professor Charlie Jeffery, Professor Yvonne Galligan and Sir Emyr Jones Parry.
As I stated previously, the commission will focus on parliamentary business and procedure. The commission’s terms of reference are:
“To consider how the House of Commons might deal with legislation which affects only part of tine United Kingdom, following the devolution of certain legislative powers to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the National Assembly for Wales.”
The commission will commence in February 2012 and will make its recommendations to the Government in the course of the next parliamentary session. This reporting time scale is necessary to ensure that the commission has time for proper scrutiny of all relevant options.
Individual Voter Registration
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
It is good to be having this debate at, I think, the third time of asking. Before I explain the rationale for our proposals and deal with the motion, I want to thank the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) for the tone in which he has engaged with the debate. I have certainly engaged with it in such a way, and I do not think that he will mind if I point out that his party did not adopt that approach from the beginning. Last autumn, the right hon. Gentleman’s party leader said that we were making registration individual rather than household, and that the Labour party was going to go out and fight against that change, stating:
“One of the most basic decent human rights…is the right to vote.”
I absolutely agree, but I do not know why he wanted to campaign against our proposals.
The shadow Deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), said at the Labour conference that our proposals were
“a shameful assault on people’s democratic rights”,
and that Labour would expose and campaign against them. I thought that that was nonsense at the time. Clearly, the right hon. Member for Tooting thought so, although he could not say so, and he has adopted a much more sensible tone.
Finally in that vein, in an article on the Labour Uncut website, the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), said that the Conservative-led Government had taken the Labour Government’s proposals—these are his words, not mine—and
“infused them with its own distinctive venom.”
I have been accused of many things, but never that.
People got carried away with those remarks, which were rather absurd, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has returned to a more sensible tone whereby we can debate these sensible proposals. There is a lot of agreement on the move to individual registration, which will improve our system, and we can consider our specific proposals and the response that we make to the Select Committee report. I am happy to conduct the debate in that spirit.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
In view of the fact that the Electoral Commission is saying that there may already be as many as 8 million people who are entitled to be on the register but are not on it, is it not, shall we say, counter-intuitive for any of us to discuss proposals that are likely to reduce the number of people on the register? Surely the objective of the Electoral Commission and the rest of us should be to maximise the number of people who are entitled to take part in our democracy legitimately. Individual registration is not likely to achieve that, particularly as it is in response, apparently, to just six prosecutions for electoral fraud.
Mr Harper
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s conclusion, which is that we should try to maximise the number of eligible voters—obviously, people who are on the register are entitled to vote—but I do not agree that individual registration is likely to reduce that number. To return to the matter of Northern Ireland—I shall expand on this later—given what we now know about the register in Great Britain, which is that about 85% of voters are registered, that register is in no better shape than that in Northern Ireland, where individual registration has already been introduced, as have a number of measures on continuous registration, such as data matching, which we propose to have at the same time. There is good evidence that if individual voter registration is introduced properly, with some of those other measures, a register may be achieved that is both more accurate and more complete than the one we have today.
Dr Julian Lewis
In general, I am happy with my hon. Friend’s proposals, but the one thing in the Opposition motion that strikes me is the abolition of the sanction if people do not register. We do not believe in compulsory voting, but up to now we have always believed in compulsory registration. Will he reassure us on that specific point?
Mr Harper
Let me come to that point in a moment, because I want to spend a little time on it, if I may. If my hon. Friend does not think that I have addressed it, I shall be happy to take another intervention from him.
Let me run through one or two parts of the motion that are defective, and which lead me to urge my hon. Friends to oppose it. I hope that I shall do so with the same tone with which the right hon. Member for Tooting introduced it. It is true that we supported the proposals for individual registration in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009, but it is worth reminding the House that the previous Government had to be dragged kicking and screaming to include them. They were not in the Bill when it was introduced in the House of Commons, which is why we voted for a reasoned amendment. In fact, they were not in the Bill at all when it left the House of Commons, although by that stage the Labour Government had made a commitment to include them, and they were introduced in the other place.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), who was leading for us on the issue at the time, said:
“I am glad that at the eleventh hour the Government have, at last, agreed to move ahead with individual voter registration, albeit in what still seems to be a lamentably leisurely time scale. They committed to the principle of individual voter registration many years ago, but a bit like St. Augustine, they seem to be saying, ‘Make me chaste, but not yet.’”—[Official Report, 2 March 2009; Vol. 488, c. 695.]
My right hon. Friend made it clear that we approved of the decision to proceed with individual registration, which we thought could be accomplished earlier. We said that it would be our intention to do so, but that is not what the right hon. Gentleman said. On page 47 of our 2010 manifesto we made a commitment to
“swiftly implement individual voter registration”.
It is not fair—or, at least, it leaves out something quite important—to say that there was complete cross-party consensus on that measure.
Chris Ruane
I was one of those who did not want the previous Government to introduce the measure, but consensus was gained and it was introduced. That consensus has now been destroyed for the sake of a single year. The Government have shattered that consensus across the country—not just in Parliament but outside, too. Why do so just for one year? Is it anything to do with the 2015 election and the boundary freeze date of 1 December 2015?
Mr Harper
No, it is not. If the hon. Gentleman will listen, we have introduced proposals having learned from the experience of Northern Ireland, for example in the carry-forward, to make sure that we minimise the risk of any drop in the registered electorate before the 2015 election. Between that election and the drawing up of registers for the next boundary review, there will be another full household canvass. There are therefore good safeguards in the system to make sure that the general election and the 2015 boundary review are held on the most accurate and complete registers possible. I shall say a little more about that later.
I do not think that it is correct to say that the Government have eroded the civic duty of registering to vote. It is not an offence—this comes back to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) made—not to be registered to vote. It is an offence to refuse to provide information to an electoral registration officer on the household canvass form when required to do so. We do not propose to change that, but I must note that there is some doubt about how effective that is, given that about 15% of electors are not registered to vote. I shall say a little more about that later.
I accept that the way in which we phrased our original proposals, with regard to the opt-out and some of the language that we used—I said this when I gave evidence to the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform—could have led people to think that we wanted to weaken the extent to which we felt citizens had an obligation to register to vote. The Deputy Prime Minister and I have both said that we are minded to change that provision when we introduce our Bill. To be fair, the right hon. Member for Tooting acknowledged that.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
My hon. Friend has half-answered my question. Why are we not making the system as effective as possible, and making people register to vote properly?
Mr Harper
We are retaining the offence of not responding to the household form. The logic is that if someone does not respond, they affect not just themselves but perhaps other people’s right to vote. That is why we have kept that proposal. We then faced the question, in the returning of the invitation to register, of whether we really wanted to create a criminal offence and criminalise people for not registering to vote. First, I start from the position of thinking that that would not be effective. The evidence at best, if I am being generous, is very mixed about whether that is effective. Secondly, we do not want to clog up the court system with a huge number of these cases. In Northern Ireland, where someone correctly said the offence of not returning the individual form exists, the provision has in effect become meaningless because when it was used in court and someone was prosecuted, the court gave them a slap on the wrist with a fine of 1p. The provision has effectively become unusable.
Chris Ruane
The evidence that I gave earlier from Rhyl in my constituency was that in the poorest ward in the whole of Wales—there are 1,900 sub-wards in Wales and this is the poorest—registration went up 2,500 to 3,500 in one year because of the threat of the fine. If the Minister does not want to make failure to register a criminal offence, how about a fixed penalty notice of £70 or £80? If people are determined to stay off the register, that is up to them, but they would face a £70 fine. If that happens time and again, perhaps he would consider making it a criminal offence after two or three times. How about that?
Mr Harper
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman raised that. He made exactly that point at Deputy Prime Minister’s questions on 15 November and my right hon. Friend said that we would look into it. Indeed, I did. Although the numbers did broadly increase as the hon. Gentleman says, they did not do so over a year. The increase in the electorate in Rhyl West from 2,474 to 3,531 took place over a period of nine years—[Interruption.] I am sorry, I have the number of electors registered in front of me. I will not bore the House by reading them out, but the increase took place over a period of eight years, so I am afraid I do not think he has got his facts quite right.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
I implore the Minister to look again at this. Clearly, if failing to send back the annual survey is to incur a penalty, it seems illogical not to insist that failing to send back the individual form should also incur a penalty. As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) said, some sort of fine that is clearly expressed to people, rather than hidden away in the small print, is a tremendous incentive to return the form. The absence of a penalty seems like a missed opportunity.
Mr Harper
Let me skip ahead to a quotation a little later in my remarks, which is relevant. There is a purpose in doing as the hon. Lady suggests only if it is effective. The evidence from the Information Society Alliance, for example, in its survey shows that compulsory registration —in other words, saying that people have to register or there will be a penalty—does not
“yield registration rates notably above those achieved in countries without compulsory registration.”
So it is not particularly effective. If I were persuaded that it was, I might look at it again. I certainly do not want to criminalise millions of people.
The current system, where failure to respond on the household registration form carries a penalty, is not noticeably effective because, as we now know, 15% of electors are missing. The single biggest reason why people are not registered to vote is that they move house frequently. One of the things that we need to do, which I will come on to, is to look at ways in which we can track people more quickly when they move house and get them registered to vote.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
From the perspective of individuals in households, I am concerned about what appears to be duplication under the new system. There is a household form and an individual voter registration form. This seems to go against the red tape challenge and from an individual’s point of view seems over-bureaucratic. I am worried that that will confuse people.
Mr Harper
The hon. Gentleman raises a good point, and I will come on to it when I speak about the modified canvass in 2014. Registration officers made the same point about why it was not a good idea to do a full household canvass in the traditional way in 2014 and then immediately write to everybody with an invitation to register. Their view was that as well as being costly, that would end up confusing people, which is why we set out a modified canvass, on which people also have strong views. I shall deal with that in more detail later.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I am grateful for the tone of the debate so far. I have a constituency in Southwark where we probably have about a 25% turnover of electorate every year. I am therefore very clear in my view that it ought not to be a criminal offence if people do not send back the form, but that there ought to be an incentive to do so and failure to do so should be subject to an administrative penalty. That changes the culture and means that everybody understands that the obligation is to register—not to vote, but to register and give themselves the right to vote when the time comes. I am clear that we need that culture shift.
Mr Harper
I have listened carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the turnover of electors in his constituency. I am very clear that we want a consistent outcome from the process and for as many people as possible to be registered, but in order for that to be effective we might need to allow electoral registration officers to adapt their approach, depending on the nature of the constituency. In areas such as his constituency, or Tower Hamlets, which I have visited, where the turnover is 40%, a completely different methodology is adopted, for example by visiting every household in the first instance, rather than sending out forms. Such an approach would not be adopted in constituencies where there was much less turnover. We must allow electoral registration officers that flexibility in order to get a consistent outcome.
I have two more points to make on the motion before saying a little more about our proposals. The right hon. Member for Tooting referred to 10 million people being removed from the electoral register. He originally used that figure in a piece in the comment section of The Guardian on 13 October 2010. The Electoral Commission responded and made it clear that it did not state that 10 million people could lose the right to vote as a result of our proposals. I simply do not think that his claim is a realistic assessment based on any kind of evidence at all. I also gently point out that there is a mistake in the motion when it states that registration rates could fall by 65%. I think that it meant to say that registration rates could fall to 65%, because that is the number that some people have bandied about, but that is not what it says.
The motion relates to the 2015 boundary review, by which I mean the boundary review that will start in 2015 and use the 2015 register. As I have said, after the next general election there will be a full household canvass in 2015, at which those who have moved house since the previous registration will be invited to register. I think there is a good process in place to ensure that that register is as full and accurate as possible.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
On the Minister’s point about the views of the Electoral Commission, did not the chair of the commission say on 15 September:
“It is logical to suggest that those that do not vote in elections will not see the point of registering to vote and it is possible that the register may therefore go from a 90 per cent completeness that we currently have to 60-65 per cent”?
Mr Harper
She did, but she was talking about our proposal to allow voters to opt out by having a simple tick box on the form. We listened carefully to what the chair of the commission said, as did others, and the Deputy Prime Minister and I have confirmed that we are minded to change those parts of our provisions. The thing that she was concerned about that might have a direct effect, because people might tick the box, could also send out the message that we were less interested in people registering to vote. We have already accepted that that could have those consequences, which is why we have said that we will change it, and I think that that acknowledgment has been welcomed by the commission and its chair.
My final point on the motion is about the way it finishes by simply stating as a fact that moving to a system of individual registration
“will lead to large-scale under-registration.”
I simply do not think that there is any evidence to support that proposition. The motion is not quite in the spirit and tone with which the right hon. Gentleman introduced it. When the debate finishes, I urge my hon. Friends to oppose the motion, but to do so in the same constructive spirit with which he introduced it.
Let me say a little more about our proposals. I am happy to take interventions, but I will try to be mindful of your point, Mr Speaker, about the number of Members who wish to speak. I am pleased that the overall shift to individual registration is supported by all parties in the House—it was in all three main parties’ manifestos. The Electoral Commission supports it, as do the Association of Electoral Administrators, a wide range of international observers and the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, whose Chair was present for the earlier part of the debate. There is much cross-party agreement on the principle and I recognise that we are effectively arguing over the detail.
The old, or current, system, involving the old-fashioned notion of a head of household who registers everyone else, is a little out of date and, as Members on both sides of the House have acknowledged, gives one person the ability to affect other people’s registration. We do not adopt that approach in other areas where people interact with the state, and the Electoral Commission has stated very clearly that the
“‘Household’ registration system means there is no personal ownership by citizens of a fundamental aspect of their participation in our democracy—their right to vote. This is too important to be left for anybody other than the individual”.
The Government agree, and I could not have put it better myself.
There is also a risk of fraud. The issue is not just about the fraud that actually takes place, but the risk of it, and even international observers, when they come and look at our system, note that we are very lucky to have a relatively low level of fraud. That is not because of our system, it is despite our system, and we would not be doing our jobs properly if we left in place a system that was open to fraud, even if we have been fortunate enough not to have had a huge amount of it to date that we know about.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
I do not necessarily accept the proposition that fraud is a major issue in Britain, but the reason for making the suggested changes within this time scale—that they were so important that they had to be speeded up—does not get away from the fraud that can be perpetrated, for example, by someone simply turning up at a polling station and saying that they are somebody else. In a flat-share situation, somebody may not have registered, but, if somebody else has and they have moved away, the former can turn up and say, “I’m Joe Bloggs, and here I am.” As long as they are the right gender, they are able to vote, so if fraud is such a major issue should we not look at what happens when people turn up at the polling station?
Mr Harper
That point has been made, and I looked at it when I visited Northern Ireland, which, for historical reasons and for the reasons it introduced the system ahead of us, requires people to have a form of photo ID when they vote. When that was introduced, it meant that many people were not able to vote, but it is now working smoothly. It has been suggested to us that we should adopt that system. The Government have decided not to do so, but we will listen to the evidence, as it certainly happens in one part of the United Kingdom. As far as I understand—I stand to be corrected—it currently works pretty smoothly, and for those electors who do not have their own form of photo ID, such as a passport or driving licence, there is a specific and very simple electoral ID card, with no database behind it, which they can use to prove their identity—and their age, for all sorts of other interesting purposes that to young people are probably more attractive than being able to vote.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the occasions of personation fraud are extremely rare, but that more fraud is thought to exist in postal voting and that, perhaps, more restrictions should be placed on that?
Mr Harper
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and there was a certain amount of fraud in the early 2000s. That is why the previous Government, to be fair and to their credit, tightened up postal voting and introduced the system of requiring identifiers, whereby an individual has to have their date of birth and provide a signature. We can at least be sure that the person who requested the postal vote is the person casting it, but of course it does not give us any confidence in that person being the real, genuine person who lives in that house, as someone may have created a fictitious identity. We can be sure that the person who requested the postal vote is the person casting it, but they could do so on the basis of a completely fictitious identity. Postal voting has been tightened up, and that is good. It is something that we supported and which the previous Government did.
Another reason for speeding up the system is that running parallel systems—the current system and the new system—was likely to be rather confusing and was, I have to say, going to cost a significant amount. We are investing a significant sum in getting this right—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) just lets me finish, we are going to spend £108 million on moving to the system of registration, so we are fully funding the move, and by not trying to run it in parallel with the current system we have saved £74 million, which, given the state of the economy and the public finances that we inherited, a point that I will not labour, is not an insubstantial factor to bear in mind. But it is not at the expense of ensuring that we have a secure and accurate register.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
The Minister has mentioned postal voting and how important it is becoming in our electoral system. Why are the Government not prepared to consider a carry-forward of current postal voters on to the new register?
Mr Harper
The reason for the carry-forward was to ensure that people who had been registered to vote but had not registered once under the new system did not suddenly discover that they were not able to vote at the general election. The carry-forward was a check. In an ideal world, one would introduce a new system and not bother having the carry-forward. It was a safety net.
As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), although postal voters provide identifiers, those do not provide any confidence or evidence that the voter is a real person. They provide confidence that the person casting the postal vote is the person who applied for the postal vote, but they do not get around the problem of people being able to create fictional identities and carry out postal vote fraud. We therefore did not think that it was sensible to extend the carry-forward to postal votes. There will still be carry-forward on the register, so people will still be able to vote, but we will not carry forward people’s absent vote. We do not think that that is likely to cause an enormous problem. The hon. Member for Caerphilly should wait for us to respond to the report of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in the not-too-distant future, because I think he will be reassured by our answers.
As I made clear to the House in my statement last September, we are focused as much on completeness as accuracy. We instigated and funded the independent research by the Electoral Commission to see what state the current registration system was in. That should make us pause to reflect. When we have discussed this matter previously, there has been a complacent view that everything is fine, that there are not many problems, and that we are at risk of tampering with the system and causing a problem. The fact is that the current system is not as good as people thought it was.
I made the point that in Northern Ireland, where individual registration was introduced and where it now has a number of continuous registration mechanisms, such as putting back the carry-forward and using data matching, the system is now as complete as and more accurate than that in the rest of the United Kingdom. That demonstrates that if we do this well, learning the lessons from Northern Ireland, looking at things such as data matching and carrying out the proposal sensibly by having pre-legislative scrutiny and listening to what people have to say, we will not damage the registration system, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, but have a more accurate and complete register over time than the one we have today.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
For people such as me who are unaware of events in Northern Ireland, will the Minister inform the House how long equalisation took to take place?
Mr Harper
What the research has shown about the drop in the register in Northern Ireland is interesting. Some of the drop was expected because, after all, part of the point of introducing the system early in Northern Ireland was that it was understood that a number of people on the register there did not exist and we wanted to get rid of them. However, it is not clear that the drop in Northern Ireland was any larger than that in the rest of the United Kingdom. Therefore, there may well have been a drop in those who were eligible to vote because they did not go through the slightly increased bureaucracy. However, most of that seems to have been fixed by reintroducing the carry-forward, so that people who did not register the first time around are not penalised. We have learned from that. Having had Northern Ireland go first and having learned the lessons from what it has done, we can be reasonably confident that we will not run into the same problems.
I am also pleased that, as the right hon. Member for Tooting said, we have gone about this in a conciliatory way. We published a White Paper last year. We then published draft legislation, consulted on it and asked the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee to do full pre-legislative scrutiny on it. The Committee has taken evidence from a wide range of stakeholders, including me. It has raised a number of concerns, some of which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. The Government will respond shortly to the Committee’s report. I urge all hon. Members, particularly those who are interested in this subject, to look at our response because it will address a number of the issues that were raised. Hon. Members can be confident that we will not run into those difficulties. For example, we have already mentioned the carry-forward, and we will not require people to re-register all their details every year if they do not move house. They will simply have to confirm that they have not moved. In Northern Ireland, people have to go through the whole process every year.
I have referred a few times to data matching. We have examined other public databases in a number of local authorities to see how successful we can be in finding people who are not registered to vote. We are in the process of finalising our assessment of that programme, and the Electoral Commission will also be doing so having worked closely with us. I am confident that it will demonstrate that we can use those extra data, as happens in Northern Ireland, to improve the register.
Younger people have been mentioned, and we want to ensure that we allow people to register online in a secure way, which will particularly help younger people. To pick up on a point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), it will potentially also help people who are disabled and find it easier to use electronic methods. I absolutely agree with her that people with learning disabilities are entitled to register to vote and to cast their vote. From my experience of working with Scope and attending its reception immediately after the election, and of talking to people with learning disabilities, particularly younger people, I know that they are just as able as anybody else to understand the issues involved and make decisions, and nobody should tell them that they should not. I wanted to put that on the record in strong support of what the hon. Lady said.
Bob Stewart
As the head of a household almost filled with very young people, it seems to me that the key to getting an understanding of who should be voting is the head of household registration form. When that form is filled out, it gives the key to who is living in the household, and then we can ensure that they are voting. I hope that that will be very much part of the system in future.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Just before the Minister responds, may I very gently remind him—I am sure he is bearing this in mind—that a very large number of Members want to speak in this debate? I am already going to reduce their time limit to eight minutes, so I hope that he may be reaching the point of being about to conclude.
Mr Harper
I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is your rather clever way of telling me not to take so many interventions and not to be quite so generous to colleagues, so I will listen to you very carefully and move on. However, I confirm to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) that we will continue to use the household registration form.
I wish to give an example of how I believe we can improve things. On my visit to Northern Ireland, I visited Grosvenor grammar school in the Belfast East constituency and met the excellent head teacher, Mr McLoughlin, together with the head of the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland. I had a look at one of the outreach exercises there, in which people go into schools and work with 16 and 17-year-olds to get them on the register in time, so that when they turn 18 they can vote. I saw 164 16 and 17-year-olds get registered to vote. Interestingly, Northern Ireland now has a higher rate of attainers—16 and 17-year-old soon-to-be voters—being registered on its system than we do in Great Britain. The lesson of that is that if we allow electoral registration officers to be more innovative and sign up voters directly, rather than relying on the head of the household, we can do better than we do today. I hope that will reassure the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd, notwithstanding the fact that he is not in favour of the procedure. I have already mentioned that we have said that we will change the opt-out provision.
The final point that I wish to put on the record is about the transitional arrangements for 2014-15. I have said that we will undertake a modified canvass in 2014, and I explained in response to an intervention some of the rationale behind that. I have explained why we do not want to run a full canvass and then write to everybody shortly afterwards. The clear advice that we received from administrators was that that would be confusing and not very effective, as well as coming with a very large bill.
I believe that given what I have said, and given what will be in our response to the Select Committee’s report, which Members will see in the not-too-distant future, they will be reassured about how we are addressing the issue. Today, they can do what I asked them to do at the beginning of my remarks and vote against the motion in a constructive spirit and with confidence that we are listening carefully to the concerns that have been raised.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The Electoral Commission has said that the current proposals would be the biggest changes in registration since 1832. That reference to the 19th century is apt. In the 19th century, electoral change enfranchised men—much of it was geared around property ownership, but it was nevertheless progress. In the 20th century—I believe it was in 1920—the vote was extended to women. The 20th century will be remembered for that. The 21st century, however, could be remembered as the time when the Liberals and the Conservatives kept or chased 16 million British voters off the electoral register.
Chris Ruane
I have got the message, and I understand it: the message is about political gain. The Minister is right that his proposals should be judged on the impact they have on registration rates. We will hold him to that and I am glad he said it. He said his proposals would lead to a more accurate and more comprehensive register. We will be watching every step of the way.
I should also point out how the previous Labour Administration operated on crucial constitutional and electoral issues in their 13 years and beyond in office.
Oral Answers to Questions
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
1. What discussions he has had on the definition of lobbying.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
The hon. Gentleman will know that we plan to bring forward our proposals for consultation in the new year, and this will no doubt be one of the subjects on which we will seek and receive views.
Bill Esterson
Does the Minister agree that businesses in this country should be lobbying the Government to go back to the negotiating table in Europe to get what is best for British business, jobs and living standards?
Mr Harper
That was a very contrived question. Our proposals on lobbying are very sound. On the European question, I think that the general public agree with what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did. There is no conflict between standing up for Britain and ensuring that we are involved in every meeting in Europe and fighting for British interests. We saw the outcome of that in yesterday’s excellent statement on the Fisheries Council.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Section 8.16 of the 2005 ministerial code required Ministers to record specific details of meetings with outside interest groups, including lobbyists. Does the Minister agree that reinstating that requirement would be a positive move for lobbying transparency, and that it was a mistake for the then Prime Minister to get rid of it in 2007?
Mr Harper
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. She will know that we have made some changes to the ministerial code. For example, when Ministers in this Government leave office, they will not be allowed to lobby the Government for two full years afterwards. That is a new proposal that was not in place under the previous Government. If it had been, they might not have had some of the problems that they did.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
I note what the Minister says about the Government’s plans to bring forward proposals for a register of lobbyists, but I want to ask the Government whether they work to the Buddhist calendar. On 2 November, he stated that the Government would publish their proposals before the end of November. Can we take his announcement today any more seriously than that one, or should we take all Government announcements with a large pinch of seasonal salt?
Mr Harper
The hon. Gentleman and his party ought to be a little careful on this subject. We are not going to take any lessons from them, because they did absolutely nothing about this for 13 years. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said last week, when we bring forward our proposals early in the new year, we will have done more on this in 18 months than the Labour Government did in 13 years.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
No one would disagree that there should be no place in this building for improper access or influence; that is obviously the case. Does the Minister agree, however, that there is a problem of definition? Perfectly legitimate charities and other organisations are lobbyists, even though they are not paid to lobby and do so on their own behalf. Will he therefore be careful about defining precisely what a lobbyist is, and take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Mr Harper
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Our constituents lobby us every day of the week about legitimate issues, for example. We must be careful to take these matters forward sensibly, which is why we are going to bring forward our proposals for consultation to ensure that we get this right and that we do not inadvertently stop our constituents and others raising important issues with us.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
2. What steps he is taking to ensure that armed forces personnel are registered for postal and proxy voting at the next general election as part of his plans for individual electoral registration.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
6. What discussions he has had on the definition of lobbying.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answer to question 1.
Jim Sheridan
May I pump the Minister a little, and ask whether it is part of Government thinking to require companies to register the costs of lobbying in their annual accounts, either directly or indirectly?
Mr Harper
If I remember rightly, that was proposed by my Liberal Democrat colleagues when they were in opposition, and the entire parliamentary Labour party voted against it, including, I suspect, the hon. Gentleman. If he will be a little patient and wait for our proposals in the new year, he will be able to satiate his curiosity.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I hope that, in defining lobbying, the Minister will recognise that it is a perfectly traditional means of trying to ensure that a good Bill is passed. Some of the worst Bills have been passed when both the main parties have agreed. Will the Minister also ensure that any lobbying by a particular trade union will fall within the definition?
Mr Harper
I am yet to present a Bill that has had the support of both the Government parties and the Opposition, and I look forward to the opportunity to do so. However, my hon. Friend has made an important point. Lobbying—in other words, the setting out of concerns by businesses, charities, and our constituents—is a perfectly sensible activity. Indeed, legislation is worse when we do not listen to the outside world, and we do not want to damage that position. I hope that when we present our consultation paper, my hon. Friend will find it acceptable. We look forward to what she, and other Members in all parts of the House, have to say about it.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
8. What assessment he has made of the potential effects of the introduction of individual electoral registration on the 2015 boundary review.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
I do not expect our proposals for individual registration to have any effects. As I have said from the Dispatch Box on many occasions, we are as focused as ever on accuracy and completeness, and I therefore do not expect the new arrangement to cause any problems for the boundary review. We are working incredibly hard to ensure that the 2015 register will be in good shape.
Katy Clark
Surely the Minister accepts that the Electoral Commission’s finding that about 6 million people are missing from the register must cast doubt on the data that are being used for the boundary review.
Mr Harper
That study was, of course, paid for by the Government, because we wanted to find out what state the electoral register was in before introducing individual electoral registration. It suggests that those who complacently thought that the register was already in good shape may need to think about that a little more, and also that our proposals, which include data matching and improving registration, are urgently required and will make the register better.
Parliamentary Standards Act 2009
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
I am grateful to be called at this stage of the debate, but it is worth saying at the start that because the report was published only on Monday, the Government have not had the opportunity formally to respond to the Committee and to set out our views. I thought it would be helpful for the debate and the House if I were able to do so at a relatively early stage of the debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) referred to the press coverage, but I can assure him that the Government are not responsible for that. We have said publicly that most of the recommendations of his report relate to the expenses scheme, and are therefore for IPSA to consider, and suggested that it might want to do so as part of its annual review. We have said that we will look carefully at the section of the report that is directed at the Government, that we are totally committed to an independent and transparent expenses system, and that we could not accept any recommendations that would be incompatible with that. I leave Members to judge, but I do not consider that to be particularly harsh. It is a perfectly calm and balanced response to the report.
Mr Harper
May I make a little progress, because I need to set out the Government’s concerns about the report? [Interruption.] I will come to that.
The problem is that the motion asks the House—I will come to the amendment in a minute—to approve all the recommendations in the report. It is perfectly true that the Committee’s report in itself has no effect, but Parliament and the House of Commons are being asked to approve every single recommendation. It is therefore necessary to look at what they are and at whether they are acceptable.
It would have been more helpful if the Government had had a little more time, but the motion was tabled for debate today. Between noon on Monday and today, we have had to study the report and the recommendations that are directed at the Government. Because I need to be able to set out our position to the House, we have had to take a view on them, and I will do so.
Bob Russell
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is a Minister for whom I have the utmost respect, and I would hate his future prospects to be diminished in the eyes of the House if he aligned himself with the amendment. Does he agree that what he has just said sounds remarkably like the wording of the amendment? Is that a coincidence, or was some pressure brought to bear on the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who moved the amendment?
Mr Harper
I have not commented on the amendment yet. It is a fact that most of the report’s recommendations are for IPSA to consider. One or two are for the Government to consider, and I shall set out our view on them because the House has been asked to take a view.
It is probably appropriate at this point to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor. Not only has he chaired the Committee very well, but he has taken a great deal of interest in this issue since the debate earlier this year and the House’s decision to set up the Committee and give it the mandate that it has. I also thank all members of the Committee, some of whom are present, for their work. They have carried out a great deal of research, taken a great deal of evidence and put a great deal of work into their conclusions.
The Government are unable to support the motion. It is helpful for the House that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) has moved the amendment, because I fear that otherwise, I would have urged my hon. Friends, and indeed every Member of the House, to vote down the motion, because there are flaws in some of the recommendations and it would not have been appropriate. The amendment enables the report to go to IPSA for its consideration. Indeed, IPSA has said that it is very pleased to consider the report as part of its annual review.
Cathy Jamieson
Before the Minister moves on, will the Minister explain to the House exactly which recommendations he feels are flawed and why?
Mr Harper
I will. In summary, the recommendations that trespass on IPSA’s independence are recommendations 2, 3, and 17(c). It is worth drawing the House’s attention to one other thing. My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor and the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) made it clear that they did not in any way want to trespass on IPSA’s independence, but however frustrating we find an independent regulator, we cannot give it instructions—
Mr Harper
Hang on. Let me finish this point and I will give way. Paragraph 204 of the report acknowledges that some of the Committee’s “recommendations require legislative changes” but also states that other recommendations do not require legislation
“but could be brought about in that way if IPSA does not act.”
The report also says that the Committee believes that legislation should be introduced to implement its recommendations if
“IPSA’s Board has not implemented”
them.
Mr Harper
I have said that I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention if I am allowed to finish my point.
We cannot have an independent regulator and expenses system, and then say that if it does not follow the views and advice that we give it, we will legislate to implement them. Those things are not compatible. In paragraph 205 of the report, the Committee states:
“We urge the Government and Parliament to have the courage to reform the system of payments…by implementing our recommendations.”
From the way I read that—I am happy to be put straight by hon. Members—it seems that there is a conflict between the recommendations in the report and an independent system. It says to IPSA, “If you don’t do them, we will legislate to do them anyway,” which trespasses on the independent system.
Adam Afriyie
I shall be polite in this intervention, but frankly, my hon. Friend has had to work very hard to find a tiny little thing to object to, but it does not say what he is suggesting. Nowhere in the report does it say that we should not have independent regulation and nobody is saying that—the first recommendation is that independent regulation should be reinforced.
Paragraph 204 merely states the obvious. In a parliamentary democracy, Parliament ultimately has the power to do anything. It does not recommend that the Government make legislation. Only recommendations 2 and 3 recommend change. Paragraph 204 is not a recommendation but an observational statement. The Minister could dig out a sentence from any report to try to make a point that simply is not there.
Mr Harper
I want time to set out our recommendations, but the report states:
“Some of our recommendations require legislative changes; others are not dependent on legislation, but could be brought about in that way if IPSA does not act.”
If the Committee had stopped there, my hon. Friend’s point would have had some force, but it did not. The report goes on to say:
“We believe that step should be taken”—
meaning that legislation should be introduced—if IPSA
“has not implemented the recommendations of this report by 1 April 2012.”
Mr Andrew Smith
I strongly support the line of argument that the Minister is advancing. Quite apart from the unacceptable proposals within the recommendations—the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) tries to belittle them, but they are there, they mean what they say, and the House is being invited to approve them—is it not crucial that this House does not give the impression that it is seeking to use its legislative power to lean on IPSA? That would be wrong, and we must make that clear.
Mr Harper
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s point, which is an important one.
The House set up a proper way in which to express its views when it legislated to create IPSA—statutory consultees include Members. IPSA also has an annual review, as the amendment makes clear. The proper thing to do is to state our views through that. IPSA has published a document in which it acknowledges quite a number of the concerns that Members have raised today and in the report, including, for example, those on staffing. IPSA has made dealing with staffing one of its focuses. It seems to me that Members need to respond to IPSA. The consultation stage is open until 20 January. I urge every Member of the House who has a concern about how the system works to take full advantage of that opportunity and to feed their views back to IPSA.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
I am not following the Minister’s argument. Is he saying that the 2009 Act, alone among every Act over the past 100 years, is the one piece of legislation that is so perfectly crafted that it will never require any amendment ever again? Unlike any Criminal Justice Bill or any other Bill that has been introduced by the previous Government, this particular Act is sacrosanct. It has been set in stone and must never, ever be considered for amendment. Is that really the Government’s position?
Mr Harper
No, it is not the Government’s position and it is not what I said. If we were simply transmitting this report to IPSA, I would have no problem with it; the report has a number of sensible recommendations. However, if we were considering the motion, which asks this House to approve every single one of the recommendations in this report, I would have a problem and I would be urging members of the House to vote against it. What this says is that if IPSA has not implemented all the recommendations, the Committee thinks that legislation should be brought in to implement them. I am simply saying that that is not appropriate if we are going to have independent regulation.
Adam Afriyie
I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). The point is that this is not a recommendation of this report. It is merely an observation that members of the Committee have made. If the Minister goes through the 200 or 300 pages of the report, he will find plenty of other observations that people have made. This is not a recommendation, so the Minister is working a little bit too hard on an argument that does not really exist.
Mr Harper
It is one of the conclusions of the report. I will now move on to the three recommendations. Most of the recommendations in the report are for IPSA to consider. As Members on both sides of the House have said, many of the recommendations are very sensible and I hope that IPSA looks at them and takes them into account. In response to the report, IPSA has said that in some areas, it and the Members’ Expenses Committee are in agreement. Indeed, it has already introduced some of the suggestions that the Committee has made. IPSA has gone on to say, and has confirmed, that it will consider the recommendations of the Committee as it carries out its annual review of the scheme, which is very welcome.
Bob Russell
Is the Minister saying that IPSA has already responded to the report?
Mr Harper
Yes, IPSA put out a press notice, which is on its website for everyone to see. It has confirmed—[Interruption.] Will the hon. Gentleman let me answer his first intervention? IPSA has confirmed publicly that it will look at this report and consider the recommendations of the Committee. Indeed, it has said that it is in agreement with the Committee in a number of areas, which is a constructive response. It has learned from some of its previous responses, and is indicating that it wants to work with Members. It recognises that there are issues with the way in which the scheme works and it wants to improve it.
Bob Russell
I understood the Minister to say that the Government had not had time to consider this report, yet IPSA has had time to consider it.
Mr Harper
No, IPSA has not considered the report. IPSA has said that it will consider the Committee’s recommendations, as it considers the annual review of the scheme. As I have said, the Government have had to consider the report because the House is being invited today to decide whether to approve it. I simply said at the beginning of my remarks that the Government would have welcomed having had more than three days in which to do so, and that would have done justice to the report. Many Members said that they wanted a careful and thoughtful review, so I am gently suggesting that giving the Government three days was perhaps not entirely helpful in achieving that objective.
The Government’s interest in IPSA concerns equipping it with its statutory framework. IPSA is accountable to the House and the Speaker’s Committee, which was set up under the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. The Government are primarily concerned about recommendations 2 and 3, which are for the Government. I will say something about recommendation 17, which deals with the decision that the House would be invited to take.
Recommendation 2—the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich addressed this point—states:
“The Act should be amended in accordance with the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s recommendation to provide that IPSA’s primary duty is ‘to support MPs efficiently, cost-effectively and transparently in carrying out their parliamentary functions.’ It would continue to be IPSA’s role to determine what assistance for MPs was necessary.”
It seems that there are two schools of thought about what that recommendation means. It is either a modest change that is meant to correct the emphasis of the legislation—
Mr Harper
I see the right hon. Gentleman nodding to that. Or it is a substantial change that would alter significantly the way in which IPSA functions.
If it is a modest change, it is unnecessary and would have no practical implication. Hon. Members will be aware that one amendment made to the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 was the insertion of section 3A. That section sets out the general duties of IPSA, which are twofold. One is that IPSA must, in carrying out its functions, have regard to the principle that it should act in a way that is efficient, cost-effective and transparent, when it is running its systems and setting them up. The second duty is that in carrying out its functions, IPSA must have regard to the principle that Members of the House of Commons should be supported in carrying out their parliamentary functions efficiently, cost-effectively and transparently. Although the duty to have regard to the principle that we should be supported to do our jobs comes second in order, it is none the less just as much a legal duty as the first; it is not an optional extra that IPSA can put to one side. That is why the change of emphasis would be unnecessary and would simply have no practical effect in how it operates.
Mr Raynsford
Does the Minister accept the point that is articulated in paragraphs 8 to 13 of the report? There is ambiguity, which was reflected in Sir Ian Kennedy’s response in trying to define the primary principles that should guide IPSA. That lack of clarity is not helpful. There is a need for a change. I am talking not about fundamental changes in the principles, but about a clarification, so that there is no longer any ambiguity.
Mr Harper
That was a helpful intervention. Let me pick it up as I move on to my second thought on this matter. If recommendation 2 is going to make a significant difference, and is not a modest change, it is misplaced. IPSA has a number of objectives that must be balanced. The Committee recognises that itself. Paragraph 97 of the report states:
“Restoring public confidence in MPs and Parliament was the fundamental purpose of the 2009 Act and the establishment of IPSA. It was so basic that it did not need to be explicitly referred to in the legislation.”
It is quite clear that IPSA has a number of things that it is trying to achieve. Yes, it wants to support Members of Parliament to do their jobs efficiently, cost-effectively and transparently. Indeed, it has a legal duty to do so. It is also interested in both restoring—there is some evidence that there has been progress in that direction—and maintaining public confidence in MPs—[Interruption.] A comment has been made from a sedentary position. I am not going to repeat it for the benefit of the House. I am afraid that I am simply reading out what the Committee said in its report. Let me repeat paragraph 97 for the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell):
““Restoring public confidence in MPs and Parliament was the fundamental purpose of the 2009 Act and the establishment of IPSA. It was so basic that it did not need to be explicitly referred to in the legislation.”
Those are not my words—
Adam Afriyie
What is clear from the statement in the report, and clear overall, is that the purpose of creating the legislation was to improve the public standing of Parliament, but the primary duty of the body administering and regulating must be to support. The CSPL said that there cannot be any other primary purpose than to support Members in performing their functions. The Minister is slightly confusing the two issues—one is the purpose of creating legislation and the other is a primary duty provided to IPSA, rather than a statement that it must have regard to something, which it may or may not decide that it wishes to.
Mr Harper
I do not think that the two are mutually exclusive. Indeed, I would argue that if Members are to be able to carry out their parliamentary functions efficiently, there must be public confidence in them. If the public lose confidence in us and in this institution, we shall be in deep trouble.
Alison Seabeck
The Minister is making an important point, but it is slightly at odds with his suggestion at the beginning of his speech that we were becoming frustrated with IPSA’s status as an independent body. I do not think that we find independent scrutiny at all frustrating. Will the Minister correct his earlier statement? It was a bit misleading and, as I have said, it is contradicted by what he is saying now.
Mr Harper
The Committee has done an excellent job in putting together what I acknowledge to be some very good recommendations, and I hope that the House will send those recommendations to IPSA. IPSA has said that it will look at them, and that is absolutely fine. However, we must accept that, if IPSA is indeed independent, and if it considers those recommendations and decides not to implement them, we must live with its decision. It seems to me that if we say, as the report says in paragraph 204, that if it does not implement them by next April we will pass primary legislation to make it do so, we shall no longer have an independent regulator for our expenses system. I think that I speak not just for the Government but for most Members when I say that we cannot start telling IPSA what to do.
Mr Raynsford
I thank the Minister for giving way again. He is being very generous. May I return him to the question that I asked earlier about the lack of clarity? When giving evidence to the Committee, Sir Ian Kennedy was asked to define the basic principles that guided IPSA. He was reminded that some were contained in legislation, and that some nine or 10 others were listed in a document that he had submitted. He gave us the slightly odd response that all of them were fundamental, which—as I pointed out to him—implied a lack of clarity in regard to what really were the fundamental principles. Will the Minister please accept that, given that the recommendation of the Committee on Standards in Public Life was not transcribed into legislation in precisely those terms, there is genuine uncertainty about what should be IPSA’s dominant objectives?
Mr Harper
I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, but I have made it clear that IPSA has a legal duty to carry out its work and to ensure that we are “efficiently, cost-effectively and transparently” supported in the carrying out of our functions. However, IPSA must balance that duty with a range of other duties, one of which is restoring and maintaining public confidence. It will not be possible for it to have a sole objective.
Mr Andrew Smith
In common-sense terms, does it not come down to the question of whether IPSA is seen as working for us—which should not be the case—or as working for the British public? Yes, it has a responsibility to ensure that we do our job in an accountable and transparent way and so forth, but ultimately, if public confidence is to be restored, it must be seen to be working for the public and not for Members of Parliament.
Mr Harper
The right hon. Gentleman has put it very well. I cannot really add anything to what he has said.
A number of Members talked about costs and how efficiently IPSA did its job. I should emphasise that IPSA itself has a legal duty to be efficient and cost-effective. The National Audit Office’s report, which has been mentioned by a number of Members, noted that IPSA had significantly reduced its cost per claim, observing:
“This is impressive by the end of its first year of operation”.
The report went on to say, however, that
“IPSA is dealing with a much higher number of claims”
than were made in other UK legislatures in the UK,
“and should therefore be able to be the most efficient in the future.”
Given that, as I said, IPSA itself has a legal duty to be efficient and cost-effective, I think that it will be mindful of the thorough work done by the National Audit Office and the important recommendations that it has made.
I shall read out recommendation 3 so that Members can be clear about what it says:
“IPSA’s current administrative role should be carried out by a separate body, so that IPSA is not regulating itself, and the Act should be amended to permit this. The best arrangement would be for that separate body to be within the House of Commons Service, both because such a body would avoid imposing undue burdens on MPs and because it would benefit from the economies of scale of being part of a larger organisation in areas such as human resources and IT. Independent regulation by IPSA and transparency would ensure that it did not replicate the deficiencies of the old expenses system.”
I entirely accept that the Committee’s intention is not—here I paraphrase a media report—to go back to the old Fees Office, but it did not exactly go out of its way to make it difficult for the media to draw that conclusion, and I think it would be difficult for the House to agree to a recommendation that contains such a reference.
Another point requires clarification. IPSA’s administrative role falls into two categories: deciding whether claims should be allowed—what is called in the legislation “determining” claims—and paying those allowed claims. IPSA already has the power to contract out the payment of those claims, which is set out explicitly in the legislation. It can also contract out the payment of our salaries and the administration of our pensions, now that it is responsible for those. Under the legislation, however, it must retain direct control of the scheme for our expenses and decisions on the claims.
I believe that the deciding of claims should remain with IPSA, and the best way of explaining why I believe that is to quote paragraph 74 of the report, which quotes the Committee on Standards in Public Life:
“The CSPL noted in 2009 that both the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales”—
the way in which the Scottish Parliament carried out its work was referred to in our debate in May, and has also been touched on today—
“had felt able to retain self-regulation by adding safeguards, but noted that ‘the difference is that neither ... has suffered a crisis of trust remotely comparable to that which has affected Westminster.’”
I think that, for that reason, the determination of our claims should remain with IPSA. The payment can already be contracted out if IPSA considers that to be more cost-effective and sensible. Other Members have said that we should not return to the old Fees Office approach, and I accept that the Committee did not mean to suggest that we should, although some may have interpreted its observations in that way.
Words mean what they say, and we must judge them on that basis. The House is being asked to approve these words in paragraph 17(c):
“In not more than six months’ time, the House should have the opportunity to consider the merits of the cost-benefit analysis and evaluation”—
as proposed in recommendation 17(b)—
“and to make a decision on whether there should or should not be a system of regional supplements instead of the existing travel and accommodation provisions.”
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor said that what was meant was that the House should simply express a view—nothing stronger than that—but I am afraid that that is not what the report says. The right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) spotted that point and drew it to the attention of the House, and I think that it raises a fundamental issue.
Adam Afriyie
I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but both I and other members of the Committee have made it absolutely clear that nothing in that recommendation suggests that IPSA would be bound by it. He will know that earlier in the week when we were discussing these matters, I tried to table an amendment to change the motion to make that clear, but it was firmly turned down. I can only suspect that the aim is to engineer a difference. Furthermore, primary legislation would be required to enable this place to force IPSA to do anything, and that is not what the recommendation suggests. I realise that the Minister will persist in his noble attempt to make this a bigger point than it is, and I respect that, but I think that we need to be clear about it.
Mr Harper
I know that my hon. Friend has set out clearly what he intended by the report, but his motion asks the House to approve the words in the recommendation, and those words mean what they mean—they ask the House “to make a decision”. Although he said that only primary legislation could bind the House, his Committee wrote, in paragraph 204, that if IPSA did not implement the recommendations, primary legislation should be used. The Committee has set out its view clearly. It might not have meant to say that, but it did say it.
Adam Afriyie
I will leave the Minister alone from hereon in because the point has been well made. Let us be clear: in paragraph 204 the Committee merely states, “We believe”. It is not a recommendation. He is working hard and doing a good job at creating the sense that this is legislation that is going through when it clearly is not. I commend him on his efforts, therefore, but the House should be clear on that point.
Mr Harper
I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend that we have explained the matter enough to the House. I have set out my view of what the Committee report states, and he has set out his. The House will be asked shortly to take a view on that, and I am happy for it to do so.
The creation of IPSA was an essential step in cleaning up politics by bringing to an end the discredited system of self-regulation. IPSA has handled expenses for some time now, and the House recently resolved to commence IPSA’s powers to determine our pay and pensions. Those powers had been on the statute book since the previous Parliament, and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House commenced those powers after consulting Members from across the House. I mention that because the Leader of the House said, in moving that motion, that under the relevant legislation MPs would not vote on their pay again, and his opposite number, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), confirmed that the principle of independent determination was right. During those debates, several Members on both sides of the House were very firm in their view that the House should never again vote on our pay, pensions or expenses, and I think that recommendation 17(c) is incompatible with that, which is why the Government cannot accept it.
Mr Tom Harris
I apologise to the Minister for intervening now, but it took me some time to find the reference to his previous point about recommendation 17(c). He seems to be saying that he opposes the recommendation because it advocates a particular allowance system in six months. Actually, he seems to oppose it because it recommends that in six months
“the House should have the opportunity to consider the merits”
of the recommendation
“and to make a decision”.
Surely he is not saying that the House should be denied an opportunity to consider whether this is acceptable. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. A lot of private conversations are going on in the Chamber. It is very distracting, particularly for those who wish to take part in the debate. If people want to have private discussions, perhaps they should leave the Chamber, so that the Minister can be heard.
Mr Harper
I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
If the recommendation simply stated that the House should have a general chat about the proposals, that would be one thing, but it specifically states that the House should be asked to make a decision on whether to change the system of allowances. If we have an independent system, we can write to IPSA asking for something different—for example, a different system of payments or a cost-benefit analysis. That is one thing. We could make those recommendations to IPSA, which could then consider them and, as an independent body, make a decision. If we decide, however, that the House can decide to change the system of allowances, we do not have an independent system any more. Members cannot have it both ways. I listened to the previous debates, and Members on both sides made it clear that we did not want to vote on our pay, pension or expenses. That is where we want to be and it is where we want to stay.
I shall conclude my remarks so that others can speak. [Interruption.] I have been generous and taken many interventions. The Government believe that recommendations 2, 3 and 17(c) are unacceptable. I therefore urge the House to support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, but if it does not, I urge it to vote against the motion tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor.
Recall of MPs
Mark Harper Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
Today the Government have published draft legislation and a White Paper setting out proposals to introduce a power of recall, allowing voters to force a by-election where an MP is found to have engaged in serious wrongdoing and having had a petition calling for a by-election signed by 10% of his or her constituents, as set out in the coalition programme for Government.
These proposals form a key part of our efforts aimed at rebuilding trust in politics, ensuring that politicians are properly accountable to the people they represent.
Currently a Member could commit serious wrongdoing but will only be disqualified if convicted by the courts and sentenced to more than 12 months in prison. Otherwise such a Member may not have to account to their constituents until the next general election.
Key to any recall mechanism is the trigger for a recall petition. Members must not be left vulnerable to attack from those who simply disagree with them or think that they should have voted a different way on a particular measure. Recall should be used to hold to account Members who have not maintained the high standards of behaviour that are rightly expected of elected representatives. Recall should not be used as a way of re-running elections.
The draft Bill provides that a Member should face a recall petition if one of two conditions are met. The first would fill the existing gap in the disqualification regime by providing that where a Member receives a custodial sentence of up to 12 months they will automatically face a recall petition. The second is the House of Commons passing a resolution stating that a Member should face a recall petition. This is designed to supplement the House’s existing disciplinary powers, and ensure that MPs who have committed serious wrongdoing which has not resulted in a prison sentence may be recalled, if the wrongdoing is considered to be sufficiently serious. The draft Bill deliberately does not set out the internal procedures of the House of Commons which would lead to such a resolution; such matters fall within the exclusive cognisance of the House. We would hope, however, that the House would put into place procedures based around those which it already has to deal with reports from the Commissioner for Parliamentary Standards.
The draft Bill proposes that the recall petition should be open for signature for eight weeks and will be administered by the local returning officer. The petition may be signed by anyone on the parliamentary electoral register for the relevant constituency, provided that they made their application for registration before the recall petition procedure was started. If, at the end of that period, more than 10% of those on the electoral register have signed the petition, then the Member’s seat will be vacated and a by-election will be held. The former Member will be free to stand in the by-election.
There is no precedent for a recall mechanism in the United Kingdom. In bringing forward this draft Bill the Government hope to stimulate a debate on what would be the best model for a recall mechanism.
We are publishing this White Paper and draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny, and I am inviting the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee to scrutinise the draft Bill. We will consider the results of this process with great care.