Wales Bill

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

If I understand the hon. Gentleman’s question correctly, the answer is borrowing powers for Wales, because we have seen £1.6 billion cut from the budget for Wales, which is money that could usefully be made up by borrowing. Of course, all the tax powers set out in the Bill—income tax and, more immediately, stamp duty and landfill tax and other minor taxes—are directly associated with those borrowing powers. We are keen to see those borrowing powers afforded to Wales, and therefore to see the Bill passed.

However, we have never said that income tax-varying powers are a Labour priority for Wales. We remain sceptical about the benefits they would afford to Wales. Our scepticism is entirely factually based. The Silk commission’s report looks extensively at the revenues Wales receives from taxes and compares them with expenditure in Wales. It determines, to put it in blunt terms, that Wales currently spends around £35 billion in public moneys and nets in revenues from tax receipts of around £17 billion. That leaves a significant deficit that would need to be made up by a Welsh Government, were they to be reliant to a greater extent on their own tax receipts.

The Minister explained a moment ago that, under the terms of the formula outlined in the Bill and in some of the explanatory material, Wales would of course benefit if the growth of GDP in Wales outstripped that of England, but he also said that it

“would be adversely affected if growth in Wales was slower.”

Although in recent years the rate of GDP growth has been faster in Wales than in England, he will know that historically—if we look at the past 20 years, for example, and certainly over any longer period—the rate has been lower in Wales than in England, for all the obvious demographic and industrial reasons. We need to be certain that Wales would not be worse off, in both the short and the long term. We remain suspicious that tax competition, which seems to be the Government’s driving ideological imperative on the matter, will not benefit Wales, for the reasons I have given.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

As someone who represents a border constituency, I think that my hon. Friend touches on a very important area. Tax competition, which might mean people moving their office across the border to take advantage of where the rate was better, will not do the overall economy in England or Wales any good.

[Owen Smith]

Absolutely. On previous occasions in the House I have outlined the difference between Wales and Scotland, in terms of the populous nature of our border, as well as the far greater problems that we will experience in Wales. I will touch on that later.

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In a close parallel, the UK Government stated that they would electrify the great western line to Swansea and the valley lines, but then reneged on their word. That also revealed the incompetence of the Labour Government in Wales, who completely failed to nail down the Westminster Government on the precise terms of the agreement. All along, the people of Wales are being let down by unionist parties who squabble among themselves and who deliver only mealy-mouthed promises and an economy in Wales that is still languishing.

[Mark Tami]

Will the hon. Gentleman please explain or elaborate on the imperialist nature of the M4, because I am slightly at a loss?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The point I am making is that all the investment seems to be on an east-west basis, rather than on a north-south basis.

Consumer Rights Bill

Mark Tami Excerpts

Monday 16th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

As I said, I met both ombudsmen in May and discussed the best way forward. As a result, they are looking at the conflict of interest, which I think is key to this issue, and at how guidance can be tightened so that the responsibility estate agents have to the buyer and seller is made clear.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Can the Minister tell the House the size of some of those awards and how often they are handed out?

[Jenny Willott]

No I cannot, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman to give him more information on that.

The ombudsman has committed to calling an early meeting of all interested parties to discuss the need for stricter controls, and I assure hon. Members that new guidance is being worked up for the industry as a matter of priority. The hon. Member for Walthamstow raised concerns about estate agents discriminating against buyers who will not take services from them—for example, mortgages and so on. Discriminating against buyers for refusing services from an estate agent is already banned and covered by the regulations.

A number of hon. Members mentioned logbook lenders. We have discussed that issue a number of times and it is clearly a matter that concerns people across the House. Responsibility for consumer credit regulation, including logbook lenders, transferred from the Office of Fair Trading to the Financial Conduct Authority on 1 April.

Wales Bill

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 30th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

No. I was referring to the Labour party’s view, which, when I listened carefully to the debate, seemed to be its definition—not mine; its definition—that a minority party was any party other than Labour. It seemed to me that the effect, and I think the intention, of the change that it made, which this Bill seeks largely to reverse, was a partisan one that was designed to favour Labour and disadvantage all others.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

But does not the hon. Gentleman think it is a strange system where someone could lose their seat, only to get back in by being No. 1 on the list?

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[Mr Harper]

I will in a minute, but I will answer the point made by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside first.

When one votes in an election—I had an exchange on this with the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain)—one puts a cross in a box on the ballot for a candidate. Now, I accept that part of one’s motivation may be that one thinks that the candidate is a wonderful person, but it might be dislike for the incumbent, or that one is making a range of judgments on whom one wants to govern the United Kingdom or, in the case of the Welsh Assembly election, Wales. I accept there is a mix of motivations, but even if one accepts the hon. Gentleman’s contention that if an incumbent constituency Member loses their seat—assuming that people’s motivation was wholly negative; that is, they voted for the incumbent’s primary opponent because they did not like the incumbent—and that Member subsequently gets elected on the list, the list simply reflects the party choice that voters made. It is the nature of the list that the person is elected not based on any of their individual qualities—the voter is not able to do that—but based on the party they represent. The fact that they may or may not have won a constituency seat is not relevant to the debate.

I think the hon. Gentleman is just throwing up chaff to obscure the fact that the previous change was a partisan change made by the Labour party, and the clause simply restores the position not to one that we created, but one that Labour made when it invented devolution.

[Mark Tami]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that, in most cases, the odds are that the person who is No. 1 on that list, even if they lose their seat, will hold a seat in the Assembly? Why is that a particularly democratic system? How does it tell people out there that it is worth voting if, whether or not they like that person, he or she will almost certainly get back in?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman is not making a case about clause 2. He is making a case about whether it is sensible to have proportional representation on list systems. In such a system, someone who is No. 1 on the list is very likely, regardless of what electors think about that person—their particular characteristics—but based on their party, to get elected. We face the same problem in the European elections. I have heard the qualities of individual candidates being debated, but of course voters are not able to pass judgment on a candidate. If I like the Conservative party—I do, of course—and I vote that way in south-west England, I have no ability to make any judgments about the candidates. I will vote for the Conservatives and they will win.

[Mark Tami]

That is a pure list system.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman says that, but I do not see that having a mixed system in which someone may be elected on a list and not be elected for a constituency raises any more issues than having a list at all does. It may be that he does not like having a list system and he wishes we did not have one, but we do, so we should try to make it work as well as possible. I think that the changes in the Bill are sensible and I wholly support them. I promised to give way to the hon. Lady.

North Wales Economy

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Hanson]

I would rather see them as giant economic growth drivers. Only last week, we had a great announcement for Hull, with Siemens bringing manufacturing to the United Kingdom. In north Wales, we have a strong renewable energy offer and lots of expertise. We have wind farms and the potential for more wind farms offshore, and a good opportunity to build on our economic success in that area. We also have strong manufacturing in the paper sector, with Kimberly-Clark and SCA in my constituency. We still have, despite many years of contraction, a strong steel-making industry with Tata Steel in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami).

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Would my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the fact that Tata has taken on a number of apprentices this year? It is seeking to invest for the future, which is good news for the plant.

[Mr Hanson]

It is good news, and I welcome the investment in apprenticeships. Other companies, such as Airbus, do the same in our area. We also have a strong automotive industry, and this week Toyota made a strong case for engagement with Europe to ensure that we can export models from the United Kingdom to Europe.

North Wales has the strongest manufacturing base in the UK, and I shall focus on Airbus, which employs between 1,500 and 2,000 people in my constituency, with more employees coming from across north Wales. It is a vital manufacturing industry for UK economic growth. A potential 30,000 new aircraft will be built between now and 2032, representing a staggering $4.4 trillion-worth of business. Airbus has the opportunity, with active Government support, to secure a key part of that market. That is important, not just for the 7,000 people who work at Airbus, but also for many others, including those who are part of the UK supply chain. Airbus has spent £180 million on that supply chain in north Wales. The strong site at Broughton was developed with active support from the Labour Welsh Assembly and the previous Labour UK Government, and with the new wing development we have the potential to grow the site further.

We also have strong sectors in other areas. Tourism is a key activity for north Wales. We have a great tourist offer, which we can grow still further. Millions of people are within a two-hour drive or train journey of our tourism economy. We have a strong agricultural sector with sheep and cattle farming, as well as milk production. Food production and distribution are growing in importance. For example, we have food festivals in Mold in my constituency. That industry has a £3 billion value to Wales as a whole, according to a briefing I obtained yesterday from NFU Cymru. We have strong local and national Government, with many people putting their wage packets, through employment in the health service and the county council, into the economy. We have a particularly vibrant small business sector, which is extremely important in growing our economy. Many wage packets come into north Wales via the car manufacturers, such as Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port, the banking sector in Cheshire and the Deeside north Wales hub, which is one of the strongest areas in the United Kingdom.

The lesson that we must learn is that we need active Government engaged in all those issues, particularly the Deeside enterprise zone in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside, which has the active support of the Welsh Assembly and has invested through a capital programme in schools and colleges in our constituencies. In my own county, £64.2 million of that programme is going into four facilities in my county of Flintshire, one of which is the community learning campus at Holywell high school. The theme I am developing is active Government. That investment is finding its way into construction and supply in the private sector, which is building and developing those facilities.

North Wales continues to benefit from EU funds. It is important, in the run-up to the European elections, that we do not allow people to take the stance that the EU is bad for Wales, because more than 8,000 new businesses have been created, and £665 million of contracts have been won. Some 13,000 businesses are supported in Wales, and north Wales has a considerable number of those businesses.

We face some key challenges, however. In Flintshire, wages have fallen in real terms by £3,000 per family on average since the economic crisis in 2007. A TUC study has shown that north Wales has suffered the biggest wage cut in Wales, with an average drop of £57 a week. The latest figures show that the number of unemployed people in my constituency has increased in the past year and that the number of unemployed young people is still rising. In my county, 1,567 people are each losing £880 because of the changes to the Government’s spare room subsidy—the so-called bedroom tax.

The cost of energy bills is also hitting the north Wales economy hard, with the cost of energy rising by some £300 over the past three years, meaning that money is taken out of the economy instead of being spent on creating jobs and services for the future. Although we do have strong sectors, such is the lack of recovery in the area that only yesterday Creative Foods, which is operated by Brakes, announced that it would consult on the loss of some 150 jobs and the closure of its food manufacturing plant in Flint. The consultation will end in late May. Will the Minister contact the Welsh Assembly and the company to see whether the factory can remain viable or whether an alternative buyer can be found? Brakes has operated in Flint for the 20 years in which I have been a Member of Parliament, and it is a vibrant factory. Aaron Shotton, leader of Flintshire county council, has arranged for the council’s enterprise department to meet Brakes to examine the situation.

In addition, this week I received a notification from Aviva as part of the Budget submissions. The letter states:

“Wales had one of the lowest levels of confidence in general economic conditions over 2013”.

Although our manufacturing, tourism, renewables, businesses and agriculture are strong, both the Welsh Assembly and the UK Government should use business policy to develop our offer and improve and grow our economy still further.

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[Mr Hanson]

That is an extremely valid point. The link from Holyhead in my hon. Friend’s constituency along the north Wales coast and down through my constituency into north-west England, and even the links across to Humberside, down to London and to mainland Europe, are extremely valuable. I know that the Minister supports that, but I think that he wants to be sure that he has the support of Opposition Members who represent north Wales to go forward with HS2 and to try to make those links in a positive way.

This is not only about electrification and links to HS2 and the south, but about the links between north Wales and Merseyside and Manchester. My hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) and I are meeting the Secretary of State for Transport regarding the Halton curve, which is a link to Merseyside and Liverpool airport that will provide access for business. A direct link to Manchester airport should also be considered. Two great airports lie within 40 miles of my part of Wales and while Assembly investment at Cardiff is fine, it does not serve the needs of the north. I hope that the Minister will be able to liaise with others on that.

Transport and rail infrastructure are key, but I also want to stress the importance of Europe. My part of north Wales does not benefit from European structural funds, but much of north Wales does. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) played an active role over many years in developing that funding with two former Secretaries of State for Wales, my right hon. Friends the Members for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and for Neath (Mr Hain).

[Mark Tami]

Even though we do not get that level of funding, we gain through what Europe gives us, which allows big companies such as Airbus and smaller ones to invest, because they know that the market is important.

[Mr Hanson]

My hon. Friend predicts my thoughts, because I was going to say that although my constituency does not depend on European objective 1 funding, the fact that many businesses in Flintshire such as Toyota and Airbus, and Vauxhall, which is nearby, are able to sell goods to the European market without tariffs is vital to the area’s economic growth. I want the Minister to commit to supporting a strong European Union.

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[Mr Llwyd]

Yes. When I represented the valley, I used to help him as well. I got him started, so I can take part of the credit. I am pleased to join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating his constituent. It is a great pleasure to see a business such as his succeed. We have fishing, climbing, sailing, hiking—the whole lot. Of course we need to increase footfall, but the main thing we need to address is the need to increase the visitor spend. We need to up our game, but it is not beyond our knowledge and ken to do that.

Other measures that can improve the north Wales economy include a private sector-led industrial development authority to leverage investment into the Welsh economy. That is not dissimilar from the suggestion that the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made. I still believe it was a mistake to do away with the Welsh Development Agency. Yes, it was a quango, but it did a good job and it was a brand that was known worldwide. But it went, and with it went the Development Board for Rural Wales, and nothing has been put in its place. The small business sector in rural Wales has lost that important arm of assistance, which was always there and was effective.

We believe that we need a public development bank to lend to SMEs and help develop local industries. Five years on from the crisis, SMEs are still being squeezed and the banks are still not giving them fair play. We should focus on the productive economy, rather than using funding for lending to asset-lend in the form of mortgages and pumping up another house price bubble.

[Mark Tami]

The banks are still telling us that they are lending far more money to SMEs. However, as hon. Members know, SMEs that come to see us tell a very different story—in particular, about their overdraft limits being cut and the problems associated with that.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Not only that, but the four major clearing banks have an understanding that they will not support tourism enterprises unless they are heavily persuaded. Think of the effect that has on the Welsh economy.

We need a Welsh public development bank, which could be geographically tied to Wales, similar to the Sparkassen and Landesbanken in Germany. Plaid Cymru has been calling for that for years. I am pleased that the Minister, Edwina Hart, has moved on that issue and has called for another review. I hope the Welsh Government in Cardiff will give priority to it, because it is vital to enable the SME sector to trade out of the recession. It could assist us all, and give a massive boost to the Welsh economy. It is the main sector that we need to concentrate on.

Finally, although I have a high regard for the right hon. Member for Delyn, I disagree with him on having ever closer links with the Chester-Liverpool region—although my legal chambers are in Chester, so who am I to say that? The problem with the Wrexham-Chester-Liverpool city region is that Welsh interests may be drowned out and become subservient to those of the north-west. That is the likelihood, if the numbers living on both sides of the border are compared. The super-prison in Wrexham—we will hear from the hon. Member for Wrexham shortly—demonstrates that point. It is a priority for an England-centred justice system: a gigantic Tory-style, “lock ’em up and throw away the key”-type prison to house offenders from all over the north-west of England. There will be 500 prisoners from Wales, and 1,500 unfortunate people imported in. Strategically, it answers the needs of the north-west, not those of north Wales. I agree with much of what the right hon. Member for Delyn said about transport links, the living wage and many other things. However, when I hear talk about that sort of axis, I fear the likelihood is that we will come off second best.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Indeed, I will come on to the value of high-paid and well-paid work later in my remarks. That is one of the reasons I am such a strong supporter of the living wage. I am not surprised that Government Members will not give us an answer, when asked about the job figures, on how many of them are part-time, zero-hours contracts and minimum wage jobs. That is deeply revealing.

Businesses across my constituency are still struggling to get competitive financing to grow, yet bank bonuses are rising again. The Chancellor is using his time in Europe to fight on the bankers’ behalf, rather than looking at how we regulate our banks and financial sector in a sustainable and fair way that will drive real investment and real jobs in our economy.

What affect businesses in my constituency just as strongly, and 2.4 million businesses across the country, are energy price rises. They have hit the cafes I visit in Grangetown as much as they have hit the hard-working nurse or police officer who is struggling to pay their energy bills in places such as St Mellons and Penarth in my constituency. Energy bills have risen by £300 a year since the election. The Government constantly try to con us into believing that they are cutting bills, but the bills continue to rise. The Government remain unwilling to agree to an energy price freeze, although this week one of the major energy companies agreed to freeze its prices.

Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) spoke passionately about visiting food banks in her constituency. I meet people who are struggling to get by: people who have been in work and have been looking for work, but who are now experiencing the indignity of having to go to food banks for emergency help.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Many people who are in work have to go to food banks as well, because they are receiving very poor wages or are on very poor zero-hours contracts.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. I have met many such individuals in my constituency. Two of the main food banks in my constituency are Cardiff Foodbank and the Tabernacle food bank, which is run independently by a church in Penarth. During the festive period in the run-up to last Christmas, demand for the Tabernacle’s services was eight times higher than it had been over the previous festive period, and demand in Cardiff overall doubled. I found that information very revealing. If it does not give an impression of what is really going on—of the hardship that people are facing, and the number of people who are on the edge as a result of the cost of living crisis—I do not know what else does.

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[Ian Swales]

It was the same for Lamborghinis.

[Mark Tami]

The hon. Gentleman said that he was not here when the previous Government were in office and indeed he was not, but does he recall standing for election when the Liberal Democrats had a poster talking about the “VAT bombshell”? Does he actually remember that?

[Ian Swales]

I do remember that, but I would make some comments about it. First, at that time we had not seen the note left by the previous Chief Secretary to the Treasury saying that there was no money left. Secondly, and unfortunately, the Liberal Democrats were 269 short of an overall majority at the last election, so we did not have the power to implement our manifesto. Thirdly, VAT is a good, progressive way of raising money from the wealthy. [Hon. Members: “No it is not.”] I suggest hon. Members do the maths and have a look. I suggest that those who doubt that talk to someone on the minimum wage and ask them how much standard rate VAT they think they are paying, given that there is no standard rate VAT on their housing costs, food, energy and utility bills, children’s clothing, public transport, TV licence and insurance. Standard rate VAT is not paid on any of those items.

After the number of enforcement and compliance staff in HMRC was slashed by 10,000 by the previous Government there was such a culture of tax avoidance that six years ago a Radio 1 DJ thought it was fine to pretend to be a second-hand car dealer in order to avoid paying £1 million in tax. I am pleased that this Government are doing something about such avoidance, including in that particular case, and overall it is clear that millionaires had a much better time under the Labour Government.

I now wish to discuss some other items in the Bill, the first of which is the marriage tax allowance. That is the only area where I have sympathy with the Opposition amendment, as the measure was not a Lib Dem priority and it does affect only one part of the community. For example, it gives no benefit to a couple who are both on the minimum wage. We did not win the argument there and it is one area where we might have done things differently. The Opposition amendment then makes a comparison with a 10p tax rate—I would have thought they would not have wanted to remind people about the 10p tax rate and the fact that they doubled taxes on the lowest paid in this country, but by reviving it, they revive those memories. It is pretty irrelevant, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies says, because we can simply raise the minimum threshold by half as much and achieve the same effect, or a very similar one. So that proposal is something of a red herring and a grim reminder of how Labour ignored the low paid in the previous Parliament.

The amendment also refers to energy bills, and that reminds me of what we often see from the Opposition: writing the headline first and then filling in the detail afterwards—at least that is how it appears. They say that they want to freeze energy prices and they must be pleased at the recent Scottish and Southern Energy announcement, but they should examine the small print, because they would see that it involves the company cancelling investment. Of course, that was highly predictable when the price freeze was first announced. Everyone from the OECD to uSwitch has rubbished the policy, because the price freeze will also freeze investment and freeze the position of the big six. The idea that it will somehow damage the big six is nonsense because, as all observers say, it will freeze out investment by new players. I have six power station projects live in my constituency right now and I can tell hon. Members that this price freeze announcement is totally spooking the financial investors for those projects. Labour’s policy will lead to lower investment, less competition, more risk to supplies, and, ironically, higher prices. If it wishes to persist with this policy, it needs to produce some independent experts who think it is sensible, but I have not yet found one who does.

Despite the fact that the shadow Business Secretary has put his name to the motion, it does not contain a single word about business, which tells us something about Labour’s stance. It also cements its reputation as an anti-business party and shows that it has learned nothing from the fact that, on its watch, manufacturing halved as a proportion of the national economy.

The Budget is good for business. It has been welcomed by the North East chamber of commerce, the Chemical Industries Association, the Federation of Small Businesses and many others. As a north-east MP, I had a lot of sympathy and empathy with what the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) said.

I welcome the £100 million extra for apprenticeships—the number of which has doubled in my constituency. Despite the unemployment position in the north-east, we have, believe it or not, a skills shortage, so those amounts are especially welcome.

I welcome the support for manufacturing. The doubling of capital allowance to £500,000 will help those who wish to invest. As a joint founder of the all-party group on energy-intensive industries, I especially welcome measures to support those industries. We have been congratulated on them by the steel industry, although it would like to see the measures implemented more quickly. I also welcome the support for low-carbon technology in the Budget.

In the end, we must generate jobs, particularly in areas such as the north-east. Over the past year, unemployment in my constituency has come down 22%, youth unemployment by 31% and long-term unemployment by 14%, and they are all significantly lower than they were in May 2010.

I share the concern of the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South about the EU. There was a large inward investment project heading to my constituency last year. We expected it to be signed, but suddenly, on 18 September, it was switched to France. I am certain that the uncertainty over our position in the EU was a factor. That was disappointing, but it just shows that all this talk is damaging the economy now and not just in the future.

I am pleased that the Finance Bill includes another round of tax-avoidance measures. The Government have taken many steps in that regard, but there are many more still to take. I welcome the publication a couple of weeks ago of the base erosion and profit shifting paper. I hope the Government will act on that, and look in particular at the shifting of profit through interest payments. Of concern was the fact that the paper mentioned the possible exemption of infrastructure industries from any measures in that regard. In particular, there was a mention of the private finance initiative industry, which ballooned under the previous Government. For example, junctions 1A to 3 of the M4 is 50% owned in Guernsey, 50% of schools in Redcar are owned in Jersey and, most absurdly, the whole of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs offices are owned in Bermuda. The exemption of those companies that have put in place those structures and the suggestion that they are not shifting profits out of the UK needs to be looked at again. At the very least, we should consider how PFI business cases are assessed, as it seems to be the norm to move the profits out of the country.

Labour has very little to say about this Budget. In fact, the Leader of the Opposition had nothing to say. The Opposition do not seem to have a coherent plan, although some of their measures are at least interesting. They appear to be using the same statistician as the leader of the UK Independence party for some of what they do. Although there is a long way to go, this Finance Bill will produce a stronger economy and a fairer society, which is what my party wants to see.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

We will look at that proposal. There is a need to ensure that systems that apply across the European Union have a proper understanding of how trusts work in the UK and some of the challenges that exist. Trusts are not companies, and there are more difficulties in dealing with them than there are in dealing with a public register for companies.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

The banks keep telling us that they are lending more to small business, but the reality on the ground seems to be very different. In particular, what are this Government doing about the excessive level of charges, which means that even when loans are available they are often not taken up?

[Sajid Javid]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman supports the funding for lending scheme, which has not only led to more money in the banking system going to companies and households, but reduced the cost of lending. He may also be aware of today’s update from the OFT. I suggest he takes a good look at it, because it is worth reading.

Pub Companies

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

The hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly important point. I know that many pubs have an agonising decision to make about whether they continue to show sport, which is incredibly expensive but attracts a lot of people through the door. I am sure he raises this question looking forward this weekend to Sheffield United playing Fulham on BT Sport, which can be watched in most good public houses at about 1 o’clock on Sunday afternoon.

The point the hon. Gentleman raises highlights the fact that the proposal we are discussing today is not a panacea for all the problems of the pub trade. If our motion is supported and the Government, with our support, swiftly bring forward regulation we can all back, it will not mean that all the problems will be solved and no more will be asked of Parliament. The sports issue is important and I will speak to my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) about it, as he is putting forward Labour’s ideas on sport for the next manifesto.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

I recently met a landlord who has managed to turn around a failing pub and increase the turnover. His reward is for all the extra money to be taken away in increased rent. That destroys the incentive for people to work hard and bring these pubs back.

[Toby Perkins]

That is an important point, and we hear it time and again. Given the economic difficulties and the difference between on-trade and off-trade alcohol, people understand that there are going to be difficult times for pubs. They will also recognise that some people are not suited to running a pub and, for whatever reason, are unable to make a decent fist of it. What sticks in the craw of most fair-minded people, however, is that the majority of those who take on major pubco tenancies end up earning under £10,000 a year. It is not a case of a few people doing very well, a reasonable number making a decent living and a small number failing; we are seeing the majority failing. Under the existing perverse disincentives, regardless of whether the pub does well or badly, the pub company does all right, and many people say that even when their trade grew they got hit with higher rents or higher prices that took away all the increased revenue they had generated. It is clear that there is a desperate imperative to act.

Payday Loan Companies

Mark Tami Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I pay tribute to those Members who have already spoken for what has been a balanced and well-informed debate so far. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), who has been leading a cross-party push to influence and shape policy in this extremely important area. I have been proud to work with and support him. I am delighted that my borough council has achieved cross-party support, so we are leading nationally and locally, and with cross-party support—perhaps it is the future.

I have talked about this subject on a number of occasions, particularly the need to empower consumers to make informed and savvy decisions. I recently read an interesting report on consumer markets by my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys). It states:

“Good markets put consumers in the driving seat to make, shape or break products. Bad markets disguise, mislead or control consumer choice”.

How true that is of this market. It is absolutely key, because there is a fundamental information asymmetry in the payday lending market, and that is at the root of why it does not work in the consumer’s interest. The market distorts decision making so that, rather than making an informed decision based on price, the consumer is led into favouring other factors above all others in making their decision—a point that has been made by a few Members today.

The Office of Fair Trading investigated 50 payday lenders, and 60% of the consumers who responded emphasised speed and quick access. For the industry itself, the FCA produced an informative and useful video and talked with some of the consumers. They said that traditional mainstream banking was often too formal. There was a perception that they would have to turn up in a suit and justify their demands, wishes and financial actions.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that many who have tried with the normal banks, regardless of whether they were wearing a suit, were turned away or found it very difficult, and that is why they have ended up with payday loan companies?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I will be moving on to the failings of mainstream banking shortly.

It is also a recognition of how consumer habits have changed. With 24/7 internet shopping becoming increasingly popular, if consumers see something online at 3 o’clock in the morning and want to purchase it, they would like to be able to access the funding right away. Society is geared up for consumers wanting something, and wanting it right away. That market adapted to consumer demand and stepped in where the mainstream banks were not looking. Clearly, value for money for the consumer is not paramount, and that needs to be addressed.

I welcome the positive steps that the Government have started to take, working with the FCA. I will comment briefly on the various things that I would like to see. The first one, and it is often the simplest, but the one on which I am not sure we are there yet, is that the total cost of a loan should always be displayed in cash terms. I suspect that not even Treasury Ministers can calculate an APR rate, which involves a hugely complex formula. Therefore, a customer should be able to say, “I want to borrow £100, and it will cost me £20.” Even those without a particularly good grasp of mathematics would then be able to make a reasonably informed decision on whether that represents good value for money.

To encourage competition, we need a standardised unit for comparison. In the energy market and in mobile phone contracts there are standard units, so consumers can visit price comparison websites to find the best product. That is very difficult with payday loan companies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

Debt is a growing issue faced by many people in my constituency, just as it is in those of other hon. Members. As a result of both the recession through which we have laboured during recent years and changes in employment practices, people find themselves increasingly unable to make their income stretch to the end of the week or the month to cover necessities such as rent, heat, food and clothes, and desperately seek a source of credit to tie them over from one pay cheque to the next. Particularly for those who are financially vulnerable and find access to mainstream credit difficult or impossible, due to the risk of defaulting, payday lenders offer the illusion of quick and easy credit, but in many cases at significant cost in the long term.

Unmanageable debt has a corrosive effect on people’s lives. Servicing high levels of debt repayment has been linked to rent and mortgage arrears, rates and utility arrears, constraints on jobseeking behaviour, poor diets, cold homes, and mental and physical health problems that are not limited to distress and depression.

Several things that can be done to tackle the problem have been mentioned by right hon. and hon. Members, and I want to touch on a few of them. First, we need to acknowledge and address the growing poverty in our country. It affects not only those who rely entirely on benefits, but—and, in some cases, more so—the working poor who struggle to make ends meet on low and irregular pay. The rise in the uptake of payday loans has been accompanied by a growth in the number of food banks, which is evidence of the financial stress with which many families have to contend in trying to afford the basics.

Raising the level of the minimum wage and lifting the poorest out of taxation are two very positive measures that the Government are considering and have committed themselves to doing. However, the impact of welfare reform is likely to hit hard precisely those same families who are struggling now, which will increase the risk of their getting into unmanageable debt. One alternative source of help that has been available for those in difficult financial circumstances is the social fund. Although it has certain eligibility limitations, I am concerned that it will go under welfare reform, and that there is little information about what will replace it.

We need to provide good alternatives to payday lenders for those in need of credit. The role of credit unions and community banks, which has already been referenced, could be significant. There are some excellent credit unions in my constituency, and they have a greater presence in Northern Ireland than in the UK generally, due to the Irish League of Credit Unions and the Ulster Federation of Credit Unions, but more work could be done to promote what credit unions have to offer. That service extends beyond access to credit, because it covers work with adults and children to support good financial habits and to encourage saving and good literacy and planning, which are hugely important.

That leads to another thing that we can do, which is to invest in financial literacy, as other hon. Members recognised in their speeches. We need to give better financial advice, guidance and education to everyone, young and old. Many people simply do not understand the implications of taking out a payday loan, the potential impact on their credit rating or the rapidity with which their debt can escalate if they fail to meet all the conditions.

A levy on payday loan companies’ profits to fund advice services would be one way to expand the advice available to people with financial problems. I have raised that with the FCA. Given that companies have made such massive profits due to charging extortionate interest rates, they could well afford it. Such advice is particularly important because people are also facing changes in their benefits and in their workplace arrangements, and yet much of the advice that is available has also been hit by austerity measures. It is hugely important that people get financial education, but it is also important that clear, transparent information is available from the loan companies themselves on how the payments will be collected and on what charges will be incurred.

There needs to be much more regulation of the operation and marketing of payday loans. Other Members have spoken about advertisements during programmes that are aimed at children—even the tone of the advertising is aimed specifically at children.

[Mark Tami]

Is the hon. Lady concerned not only about payday loan companies, but about companies such as BrightHouse that offer access to high-value products? The costs are extraordinary by the time people finish paying for those products. To all intents and purposes, it is the same sort of arrangement. People are being charged a high amount of interest to have access to those products.

[Naomi Long]

I agree that it is not only payday lenders who are at fault. People are offered a range of credit facilities. Part of the difficulty is that people do not understand what the APR means in real terms when they take out a loan. We really need to work on that. People must also have transparent information when they make such decisions.

On advertising, I want to bring to the attention of the House an experience that I had of late. I received an unsolicited letter from Wonga. I will name the company because I have already done so on Twitter. That was the only way that I could get a reply to my original letter of more than a month ago, in which I asked why I had received the letter. I wrote to it because I was concerned to receive what appeared to be a marketing mailshot, claiming that I had applied for credit with the company, which I had not. It offered me terms on which I could apply for a loan.

Wonga claims that the information of mine that it possessed had been used fraudulently to try to obtain credit in my name. It had retained my details on file for the purpose of excluding that, but had mistakenly sent me the mailshot as part of a marketing test. I asked whether the matter had been reported to the police and why Wonga did not contact me directly to say that my details had been used, given that it had my address. I also asked whether it could tell me when the incident had taken place and whether it was only people in the same category as me who had received the marketing shot or whether it was more general.

I intend to pass on my experiences to the FCA and the Information Commissioner’s Office, because although some people will realise that they had not sought the unsolicited mailshots, such abuse could fool others into thinking that they have previously applied for a loan and that it is something that they may want to take up. It is hugely important that aggressive marketing tactics are stamped out and dealt with through proper regulation.

There needs to be a cap on the total cost of payday loans. That has been referred to by a number of Members. I welcome the FCA’s ongoing consultation on such a cap. It is worth noting that other EU states have imposed a cap, as have many states in America. Given the mobility of payday loan companies, if the UK does not have a cap on a par with those of other EU states, we might find that companies move to the UK to capitalise on that.

Other Members have said that competition does not really work in this marketplace. I think that that is true. Six lenders account for about 90% of the market share. There is no incentive for them to offer competitive interest rates because convenience seems to drive demand, rather than interest rates.

The regulation of charges is required, in tandem with an overall price cap, so that the costs are not passed on in that way. I welcome the work that Which? has been doing to expose the excessive default fees that are charged by many companies. It has described that as exploiting borrowers and potentially illegal. Such fees are often well above the costs of administration for the default and are one of the biggest factors that tip people into a debt spiral. The Which? research shows that one in five payday loan users has been hit with unexpected charges and that more than 50% of payday loan users have incurred late payment charges over 12 months, compared with 16% among all credit users.

For the information to be effective and meaningful, we need a real-time lending database. Some payday loan companies have worked together to implement that, but it needs to be mandatory if it is to be meaningful. It would hopefully stop multiple loans and prevent people from taking out one loan to pay off another, thus compounding their problems.

I hope that in raising these issues tonight and in keeping the public focus on payday loans, we will be able to do something worth while to protect those in our society who are financially very vulnerable.

National Minimum Wage

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

An investigation by the Low Pay Unit looked at pay rates before the national minimum wage was introduced and back then one worker in a residential care home was paid just £1.66 an hour. I agree that today, too, people working in that sector are too often exploited and that their employers get round the legislation.

The Low Pay Unit considered pay before 1997 in a range of industries. I mentioned residential care but it also came up with other examples, such as a factory worker who was earning just £1.22 an hour in 1997 and a person working in a chip shop in Birmingham who was earning just 80p an hour. That is sheer exploitation. It is poverty pay and it was taxpayers who picked up the bill.

Let us also remember what Government Members said back then. The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), now Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, said in 1997 that a minimum wage would

“negatively affect, not hundreds of thousands but millions of people.”—[Official Report, 4 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 526.]

The right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), now Foreign Secretary, said back then that a minimum wage would have to be

“so low as to be utterly irrelevant”

otherwise

“it would price people out of work.”—[Official Report, 17 March 1997; Vol. 292, c. 617.]

The right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), now the Minister of State responsible for business and enterprise, said that a minimum wage

“will add costs to British business”.—[Official Report, 11 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 1240.]

And the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), now Prime Minister and then a parliamentary candidate in Stafford, darkly predicted in 1997 that a minimum wage would lead to a rise in unemployment.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Conservative Members are very keen on calling for us to apologise for things. Does my hon. Friend think that it is time for them to apologise for such comments?

[Rachel Reeves]

It is not just the Tories who should apologise; the Government’s junior coalition partners should apologise, too, because they were worried back then as well about the impact of the minimum wage. In 1994, their then leader attacked Labour’s

“umbilical attachment to a national, high-rate minimum wage”

and said that

“a national minimum would…force many on to the dole”.

The Liberal Democrats went into the 1997 general election with a manifesto commitment not to a national minimum wage but to a

“regionally variable, minimum hourly rate.”

Let us be grateful that they did not get their way. Despite the then Opposition fighting the legislation tooth and nail, line by line, clause by clause, using every trick in the book to slow, frustrate and obstruct its progress, the national minimum wage became law.

Transport Infrastructure (North Wales)

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

As can be seen from the attendance, there is quite a bit of interest in this debate. Six Back-Bench Members have already indicated that they would like to speak, so if Members can curtail their remarks as far as possible, we will get everyone in.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Caton. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I am pleased to have secured this debate on an important issue. I will mainly concentrate on north-east Wales, particularly its economic importance, the history of the area and why the transport links that we have now and that we hope to have in future are so important.

The area, whether people want to call it the Deeside hub or Mersey-Dee, covers Flintshire, Wrexham, Denbighshire, Cheshire west, Chester and Wirral, with a population of about 1 million and gross value added of some £17 billion a year. Some 83% of the area’s journeys start and finish in the area. More than 17,000 people commute across the border to England, and some 10,000 go the other way. There are also students who go to Chester, and students going the other way to Glyndwr university.

I am pleased to say that the area contains many modern and very successful manufacturers, with Airbus, Toyota, Shotton paper, Tata Steel Colors, ConvaTec and many more on the Deeside industrial park. On the other side of the border, we have Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port, Bank of America and, again, many more. Indeed, north Wales accounts for more than 30% of the manufacturing output of Wales as a whole. I know that colleagues both in England and in Wales are surprised at the size and skill levels of some of those factories and at the number of jobs involved. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) will no doubt talk about the Technium in St Asaph, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) will talk about Wylfa in Anglesey.

Airbus employs more than 6,500 people, 60% of whom live in Wales, coming from as far afield as Anglesey. The other 40% live in England, coming from as far afield as Derby, or so I am advised—that seems a fairly long commute to me, but apparently it is the case. There is substantial spend in the local economy, but those people need to get to and from their place of work. The supply chain is beginning to site in the local area, which, again, is creating more jobs. The big danger is that we take all that for granted, as if it will be there for ever and a day.

I have told this story before, but I will tell it again because I think it is worth telling. When I entered Parliament in 2001, before giving my maiden speech—I am sure other colleagues did the same—I looked at what my predecessor did. My predecessor, who is now Lord Jones, talked about the two great powerhouses of the area, which were Courtaulds Textiles and British Steel. One of those companies has gone altogether, and the other is still important but employs only a fraction of the numbers it did back then. It still holds the record for the most job losses on a single day at a single plant, when more than 8,000 people lost their job. We cannot assume that, just because companies are big and employ a lot of people, they will be there for ever and a day.

Many other areas that suffered in the 1980s have still not recovered, but because of the efforts of Flintshire county council and others, including my predecessor Lord Jones, new investment was attracted to the area, and we have managed to build on that. Importantly, we want to attract companies that will stay, not just companies that come because they want grant assistance and that will then up stumps and move somewhere else. We want long-term investment not only in buildings but in the work force. Even in good times, we have seen that successful companies can still fail. I remember when we thought that the optical fibre market was doing extremely well, but it crashed overnight and the high-tech factory closed. We lost quality jobs in a relative boom period.

We are getting by okay at the moment, so why do we need to improve and update our transport network? To be honest, we are barely getting by. If we get the level of growth in the local area for which we hope, we will need to improve things, because our transport system is creaking at the seams in places. The Mersey Dee Alliance carried out research, which is included in both the Haywood and the north-east Wales integrated transport taskforce reports to the Assembly, showing that we can expect to get between 40,000 and 50,000 jobs in the next 20 years. That figure comprises Mersey waters enterprise zone, with 20,000 jobs; Deeside enterprise zone, with 5,000 to 7,000 jobs; 4,500 jobs at Ellesmere Port; Ince resource recovery park, with 3,200 jobs; the university of Chester’s Thornton site, with 2,000 to 4,000 jobs; central Chester business district, with more than 1,000 jobs; the Northgate project, Chester, with 1,600 jobs; Wrexham industrial estate and western gateway, with 2,500 jobs; 7,500 jobs in Denbighshire; Vauxhall Motors, with 700 jobs; and Bank of America, with 1,000 jobs. So we hope that a substantial number of jobs will come to the area during the next 20 years, which is positive stuff, but we need a modern transport system that works to ensure that that happens.

We are already over-dependent on car usage. In Flintshire, more than 80% of people use their car to travel to work, which is a very high figure—Flintshire had the highest car usage in the country, but I do not know whether it still does—and I am sure the figure is not much different in other parts of Wales. I do not think that is just because people like using their car; it is because there is a problem getting anywhere using any other system of transport.

The north-east Wales integrated transport taskforce report of June 2013 clearly highlights some of the problems that we are facing. I will illustrate them by referring to a few journeys to the Deeside industrial park. From Flint by car it would take an estimated 16usb minutes, and by public transport 43 minutes, which is not too bad. Rhyl is 39 minutes by car, or one hour and 25 minutes via a bus and a train with one change. Denbigh is 44 minutes by car, or two hours and 17 minutes by public transport—a bus and a train, two changes. Wrexham is 32 minutes by car, or one hour and 25 minutes by public transport—it is a bus and two changes, even from Wrexham. Frodsham is 24 minutes by car, or one hour and 14 minutes by bus and train, again involving two changes.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate. Two of the big centres that he mentioned, the Airbus factory and the Deeside industrial park, are on the north Wales line. Is there a case for building dedicated stations on the Deeside industrial park and at Airbus itself?

[Mark Tami]

I think there is, and I will talk about why we need a dedicated station. It is important that we make it easy for people to move about, because there is a lot of anecdotal evidence showing that some people are not taking up jobs that are perhaps not well paid because the difficulty and cost of getting to that job outweigh the benefits of taking it. We need to address that.

What do we need to do? On road improvements, we have a pretty good system, but there are pinch points. Considerable work has been done on the M56 to sort out problems on the English side of the border, but there is a pinch point on the A494 and the A55 around Queensferry and Aston Hill. With the creation of the Deeside enterprise zone, that will probably get worse, rather than better. In saying that, I am certainly not arguing for the original proposal, which was totally out of proportion to what was required. At one point, it included 13 lanes—I think it could have been seen from space. It failed to take account of local issues, and there were serious local concerns about that.

I think we can do things relatively cheaply—we are in difficult financial times. As someone who uses the road a lot, I know that most of the problems are caused by lorries and, in the summer, caravans slowing down. A crawler lane could deal with a lot of those problems.

Whatever we do, we need noise protection measures. We also need to involve local people. The Assembly is looking at the issue, and I have written to the Transport Minister about it. The problem is that there is a lot of uncertainty, which makes it difficult for people to sell their houses or to know the size of the project they will face. I recognise that £70 million has been earmarked for improvements further into Wales. I read the other day that another crossing to Anglesey was being considered, depending on what borrowing powers deliver.

A further pinch point is between the A483 and the A55. As someone who has sat in traffic there on many occasions, I know that it causes a bit of a problem. Again, it could be sorted out relatively easily. I am always struck—this perhaps demonstrates that we need more joined-up government—by the fact that the A483 has tarmac on it on the Welsh side of the border. I actually know when I am entering England, because I drop off the tarmac and on to concrete slabs. I do not know why the two Administrations could not just have spoken to each other and sorted the whole thing out in one go, but clearly that did not happen.

As I said, we do not have a bad road network; it needs improving, but it does not need major surgery. The same cannot be said for our rail network, which is particularly poor—especially for people in the Mersey-Dee area who use it to commute to work. The Wrexham-Bidston line goes through the whole area, and it is an ideal solution to many of the transport issues I have talked about. There is great potential, but the service’s frequency and reliability are, unfortunately, not what the average commuter expects.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend has spoken about a variety of matters, but does he not agree that some small changes could have a real impact? He referred to the inadequate rail service. In my constituency, there are two stations—Chirk and Ruabon—neither of which has ticketing machines. If one wishes to print a ticket, one has to go to Wrexham General station, which defeats the whole point of advance booking and the like. There is also no disability access at the stations, so it is not possible to go from one side to the other. Those are small things, but they suggest the lack of a mindset favourable to rail usage in smaller areas.

[Mark Tami]

I thank my hon. Friend. I agree there are lots of small changes that could be made. Someone came to see me who was blind. He said that few announcements are made on trains, so he feels unsure whether he is getting off at the right station. There are small things we can do to improve the situation, and they do not involve a big cost.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

The hon. Gentleman has listed a large number of possible road improvements, and he is now talking about rail improvements. However, I was under the impression that transport is a devolved matter. I am not springing to the Minister’s defence, but would the hon. Gentleman’s comments not be better directed at his Labour colleagues in Cardiff?

[Mark Tami]

I would say that I thanked the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but that would not be true, would it? He has made his point, but I was talking about joined-up government, which would make sense. The hon. Gentleman might realise that there is no Hadrian’s wall at the border; in fact, there is no border at all as far as most people are concerned. As I have tried to illustrate, people work on both sides of the border, and we do not want to be turning away jobs, although perhaps that is what the hon. Gentleman wants.

[Hywel Williams]

rose—

[Mark Tami]

I think the hon. Gentleman has made his point.

The Wrexham-Bidston line does not work well, particularly for shift workers, for whom it does not start early enough or end late enough. We really need to modernise the service. In the first instance, we need to introduce a half-hourly service. In the longer term, we need electrification, although we must take on board any concerns among people living along the route.

We have to look at a cross-border service. In the past, when we thought we had made progress on the Wrexham-Bidston line, it came to nothing, partly because costs suddenly spiralled—I never quite understood why—but also, if we are honest, because the Administrations failed to work together for the benefit of those on both sides of the border.

I certainly support upgrading the service. As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned, we need a dedicated station on the route to serve the Deeside industrial park. The Hawarden Bridge station offers an opportunity, although we might want to build a different station. However, we need something on the site. To be frank, it is incredible that the industrial park was built without a dedicated station in the first place—that seems crazy to me. For those who do not have a car, the only way to get there is to use the shuttle bus. For a park with 7,000 or 8,000 jobs, that is completely ridiculous. We can look to the past, but we really have to learn the lessons of the past and not make the same mistakes again.

I welcome the improvements at Saltney junction, where line speed and capacity will be increased. I would also welcome the reinstatement of the Halton curve, which links the Chester-Manchester line at Frodsham with the west coast main line at Runcorn. That would allow the reintroduction of a direct rail service between north Wales and Chester, and on to Liverpool Lime Street and, importantly, to John Lennon airport. A study is looking at the viability of that, and I hope it reaches a positive outcome.

A service we tend to forget—it is seen just as an add-on—is buses. We need a more co-ordinated approach, and we need to look at the cross-border nature of bus services. As I indicated, even short journeys seem to take a ridiculous time—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd is indicating that I am doing a similar thing. As I said regarding the Wrexham-Bidston line, the public must have confidence in bus and train services if they are to use them. If they do not, they will see them as unreliable, and they will carry on using cars.

I will make one final point, as I know people are keen that I conclude. There has been some mention of having an airport in north Wales at Hawarden, effectively in Broughton. Broughton is vital for taking wings out of the manufacturing facility there to be assembled in France and Germany, and for a limited number of light aircraft movements. It is in a very built-up area, and we have two perfectly good airports at Manchester and Liverpool. We do not need to expand any service at Broughton; we need to ensure it is easier to get to and from the airports at Manchester and Liverpool. That makes far more sense than expanding capacity at Broughton.

In conclusion, we have a great opportunity in north Wales to grow and to create jobs, and to use the very skilled work force we have there to grow the economy for the future. We are only going to do that if we have the right transport infrastructure in place.