Public Forest Estate (England) Debate
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Mary Creagh
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Public Forest Estate (England)
Mary Creagh Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House believes that the Government’s intention in the Public Bodies Bill to sell off up to 100 per cent. of England’s public forestry estate is fundamentally unsound; notes that over 225,000 people have signed a petition against such a sell-off; recognises the valuable role that the Forestry Commission and England’s forests have made to increasing woodland biodiversity and public access, with 40 million visits a year; further recognises that the total subsidy to the Forestry Commission has reduced from 35 per cent. of income in 2003-04 to 14 per cent. of income in 2010-11; further notes that the value of the ecosystems services provided by England’s public forest estate is estimated to be £680 million a year; notes that the value of such services could increase substantially in the future through the transition to a low carbon economy as a carbon market emerges; notes that the public forest estate has been retained in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to rethink its decision on the sale of England’s public forest estate in order to protect it for future generations.
The countryside is on the move against the Tory-led Government’s plans to privatise England’s forests. People are furious about this environmental vandalism. The Government’s impact assessment shows us that it is economic madness, too. The Government are carrying out a hatchet job that destroys the funding model which has protected England’s forests for nearly 100 years. If the commercial timberlands are sold, the ancient woodlands starve. The true value of England’s forests cannot be measured by the price that the Government will get from selling them.
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Will the hon. Lady inform the House when she first discovered that the last Labour Government sold by stealth thousands of acres of forestry land?
Mary Creagh
I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has raised that issue, because we can put paid to the lies about it. Under the last Labour Government, there was a net sale of 4,000 hectares in England. We sold 9,000 hectares and bought 5,000 hectares. We expanded community access to the forests. The money was recycled back into the forests, and did not go to the Treasury.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
Will my hon. Friend confirm that the policy of the last Labour Government involved selling off some woodland and reinvesting the proceeds in areas such as mine to create woodland in urban areas such as the Mersey forest?
Mary Creagh
I am delighted by my hon. Friend’s mention of the Mersey forest, where 1 million trees were planted in and around her constituency.
How did the Government get this so wrong? Over the summer, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs rolled up her sleeves and took the axe to her own Department. She cut the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by 30%—the biggest cut of any spending Department. There are cuts to flood defence schemes, and nature reserves are next on the transfer list. England’s forests were slipped into the Public Bodies Bill in the bonfire of the quangos. However, she was seeking not a bonfire of the quangos, but the power to sell off all England’s forests.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
If the hon. Lady is so opposed to this Government taking the powers in the Public Bodies Bill, why do the Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government want the same powers?
Mary Creagh
The right hon. Gentleman makes a point about the future—[Interruption.] My question back to him is what is happening to the future of forestry in this country under his Government? If they take the heart out of the Forestry Commission model—take away what is happening in Scotland and Wales—they will effectively destroy the system that has protected the national forests for 100 years.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
My hon. Friend said that England is on the march. Wales is on the march as well, going by the number of Welsh people who have written in to safeguard England’s forests. However, they do not just visit those forests. To answer the Minister of State, the Welsh Assembly Government want the powers to safeguard Welsh forests against this very measure. They fear that Welsh forests will be rolled into the Bill that has been mentioned.
Mary Creagh
The Public Bodies Bill, which was introduced in the Lords in October, gives the Government the power to sell the lot—1,500 woods and 258,000 hectares. It is the biggest change in England’s land ownership since the second world war. This is not the first time that the Tories have sold England’s forests. After introducing the Forestry Act 1981, they sold off 72,500 hectares in three years. Let their actions then stand as a warning to us today.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
I declare a passing interest: my wife was born in the Forest of Dean and my constituency town takes its name from the old Lyme forest along the Cheshire and Staffordshire border. Does my hon. Friend agree that the strand that links this policy with all the other policies for which there is no public mandate is the pretence that debt and borrowing are worse than was expected before the election? Does she agree that that is a pretence and that it does not justify this further act of public vandalism?
Mary Creagh
Absolutely; I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point.
Let us look at the maths. The Forestry Commission costs each of us 30p a year. Our ancient trees, worshipped by our ancestors as a source of food, fuel and shelter, will go in this sale of the century. The Secretary of State wants to finish a task that proved too much even for Mrs Thatcher.
Mary Creagh
The Minister asks how many acres of ancient trees we have. The answer is that he does not know, because I met Forestry Commission officials this morning, and they told me that the mapping tool that the Government are using has excluded sites of special scientific interest. [Interruption.] The Minister should perhaps talk to his staff a little more. I have been talking to a lot of them, and I have not met a single one who supports his plans.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
My hon. Friend refers to the countryside being on the march. Is she aware that in Islington South, where we have the smallest amount of green space in the whole of England, I have had 323 letters on this issue? They are our trees too.
Mary Creagh
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Perhaps I should have said that the country is on the march.
The Secretary of State did not reckon on the campaigns against these plans, both national and local, which have united people from across the political spectrum. Some 360,000 people have signed the “Save our Forests” petition—the largest public protest since the Government were elected.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend agree that Lloyd George, who set up the Forestry Commission in the previous Tory-Liberal Government in 1919, would turn in his grave at the thought that this coalition was selling off England’s forests and leaving only Wales and Scotland to manage and own our public land and forests?
Mary Creagh
I am sure he would be spinning in his grave.
I turn to the consultation document that the Government published last week. I have read it, unlike many Government Members, and it rewards reading. It raises more questions than it answers. There are a lot of warm words in it about communities instead of the Forestry Commission managing forests, yet on page 33 there is a harsh reality:
“Any sale would be at the open market value”.
Forests currently sell for between £3,000 and £6,000 a hectare. I will give way to any Government Member whose community can afford to compete with the private sector to buy up thousands of acres of woodland. [Hon. Members: “Come on!”] No takers?
Mary Creagh
My question is this: was it at full open market value? That is the question to which we shall return.
Page 13 of the consultation document contains more warm words about public access. However, although the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, introduced by a Labour Government, provides pedestrian access to 90% of the freehold area of the public forest estate, 20% of the estate is leasehold, so CROW rights there depend on the lease. The document warns:
“So-called ‘higher rights’, such as cycling and horse riding, have not been dedicated.”
Ministers talk of conditions in leases, but if they lease land for 150 years, who will enforce the leases a century from now? The public forest estate makes up 18% of the woodland in England but accounts for nearly half the publicly accessible woodland. That tells us all that we need to know about public access to private woodlands.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady think that the Woodland Trust and the National Trust will or will not be able to compete in the free market to purchase important forests?
Mary Creagh
The National Trust has come out this morning and said that the Government’s plans are absolutely no way to manage the public forest estate—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen the news today—and the Woodland Trust has a big petition on its website saying, “Save our forests”. He needs to look at what they are saying. They will not pay their members’ subscriptions to the Treasury to buy something that we already own.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
Literally hundreds of my constituents have written to me saying that something must be done to stop the sale. On Saturday week I am holding a public meeting to discuss—[Interruption.] The Minister of State may laugh, but we will be discussing how they can respond to his consultation. Will my hon. Friend come to York on that day to meet people and hear what they have to say?
Mary Creagh
I thank my hon. Friend for that invitation. I shall certainly make the journey to York to hear what his constituents have to say, and I hope that Ministers go out and listen to what the country has to say on the matter.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
The hon. Lady mentioned the Woodland Trust. Does she agree with its chief executive, who told Radio 4 last week that:
“Public ownership is not delivering full protection…it is not as simple as saying that public ownership is better”?
Does she agree that different forests need different types of ownership structure?
Mary Creagh
Different forests are already under different sorts of ownership—the public forest estate makes up 18% of England’s woodlands. The question is what the nation values and for what we are prepared to pay.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Oxleas wood in my constituency is a sight of special scientific interest and has a great deal of biodiversity. It is small wonder that those on the Government Benches understand nothing about biodiversity, because under the previous Tory Government we came together and fought to save Oxley woods from a six-lane motorway that they wanted to build. We did not succeed by buying the woods, but would it not be invidious if the only way to stop such development under this rotten coalition was people subscribing to buy them?
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point and brings us back to the question of money.
Who will pay to look after England’s forests? Page 17 of the consultation document has many warm words on the English woodland grant scheme. It says that any new owners could apply to create new woodlands and to care for existing ones. However, that document must be read in conjunction with a much more serious one—the impact assessment, page 39 of which states that payments under the woodland grant scheme
“may not be sufficient to secure the level of public goods currently provided on the PFE.”
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The hon. Lady makes some good points. Does she agree that this Government could learn lessons from the mistakes of the previous Government, of whom she was a member? Rigg wood in my constituency was sold off under the Labour Government, and as a result, public access has now been restricted. Would it be right for this Government to think carefully about how we protect public access to our forests, whether publicly owned or otherwise, given that her Government failed so badly?
Mary Creagh
Let us go back to the numbers. We sold off 9,000 hectares and bought 5,000. The Government whom he supports—I am grateful that he is backing our campaign on this issue—will sell off more land in the next year than the previous Labour Government sold off in 13 years, and they will do so without giving any guarantees whatever on public access. Government Members should think on that and reflect on the 40,000 hectares that are going in the sale of the century.
Page 18 of the consultation document states that
“significantly increasing woodland cover across the UK would be a cost-effective way to help with both climate change mitigation and adaptation.”
When I met Forestry Commission staff, they told me that they estimated that the future value of biomass and wind power on the public forest estate could be as much as £75 million a year. Perhaps Government Members can tell the House how the sell-off will increase tree planting if there are not enough grants to go around.
I recently met free miners and verderers from the Forest of Dean. They told me that it costs £500,000 to look after their forest, and that it brings £100 million to the rural economy. They want their questions answered. Who will run the forest? What would happen if the much-vaunted charitable trust collapses? How would their commoners’ rights be protected in any transfer? The New Forest costs the Forestry Commission £2.9 million to run. How will that money be raised in perpetuity? I shall answer that question for the House: the money will be raised through increasing parking charges, by closing toilets and by reducing spending on wildlife management. That is not my view, but the view expressed in the Forestry Commission’s staff consultation, which was published today and which lays everything out for us in black and white.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
The Forestry Commission currently manages all our forests to the Forest Stewardship Council standard, which is well above the base legal level, and does so at a cost of about 30p a year to each of us, which is a pretty good bargain.
Mary Creagh
That is a very interesting point and one that I was going to make later. As the hon. Lady has raised it, however, I will address it now. All the timber is responsibly produced, but in an answer on 17 January, the Minister of State said:
“Certification under the UK Woodland Assurance Standard is voluntary and this will be a decision for the new owners of woodland…The consultation…will include proposals on how certification might be maintained.”—[Official Report, 17 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 471W.]
Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
There are no car parking charges in the New Forest, but there are car parking charges in plenty of other Forestry Commission forests. It is entirely a local matter.
Mary Creagh
I am interested that the Prime Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary—who has been writing some interesting blogs about strawberry jam and other matters—is perhaps feeling the pressure from his local community on this issue—[Interruption.] Do wooden pips and strawberry jam ring any bells? That is a sign of someone who is under a great deal of pressure. One thing that we can guarantee the hon. Gentleman’s constituents is that if this sale goes ahead, they will be paying for car parking.
Mary Creagh
I wish to make a little more progress, and then I will give way.
Page 20 of the document talks about experience from other countries and cites the privatisation of forests in Russia and central Africa, and the need to tailor our approach to the national context. I am still trying to work out—perhaps the Secretary of State will be able to tell us in her speech—in what ways England’s national context is similar to that of Russia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo, whose economy has been shattered by seven years of war and where one in five children die before their fifth birthday—[Interruption.] It is a country that I have visited and about which I care a great deal. I care about the natural timber resources of the Congo and I know that the Government give money to protect them, but the Congo is not the model that we should use as an excuse for privatising our forests.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Is not the point that many of us would be happy to chain ourselves to trees and forests, but not to the structure and jobs of the Forestry Commission?
Mary Creagh
I do not know what the hon. Gentleman has got against those dedicated public servants, but when I met them they were very concerned about the 270 jobs that will go instantly in the Forestry Commission and about how woodland will be managed with 25% fewer staff. They were concerned about how national diseases, such as sudden oak death, will be managed and about the loss of a critical mass of expertise from the Forestry Commission. The hon. Gentleman derides that concern as if it were all about jobs for the boys and girls. It is not: those workers care about the forests, which is more than can be said for the Conservatives.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
I am glad that we are talking about the jobs of those who work for the Forestry Commission. Although we are talking about forests in England, jobs throughout the UK are at risk. There are several hundred staff at the former UK headquarters in Edinburgh, many of whom live in my constituency and are very worried about the future. They have told me that between 400 and 600 jobs in Scotland depend on the link with the English Forestry Commission and they are very worried about the future because of the Government’s proposals.
Mary Creagh
Yes, we risk a cross-infection of job losses across the Forestry Commission estate with these proposals.
It is not only Forestry Commission staff who are worried. David Sulman, executive director of the UK Forest Products Association, called the proposals
“a recipe for disaster. If these leasing plans go ahead, thousands of jobs in the forestry and forest products sector will be put in jeopardy; many businesses could be starved of their wood supply and would face closure as a consequence.”
There is no plan for rural jobs and growth here.
The consultation is full of holes. The Government talk about the big society, but the Forestry Commission and its communities are the big society. The Department’s impact assessment shows that the costs will outweigh the benefits. There is no mandate for this. The coalition agreement promised
“measures to…promote green spaces and wildlife corridors in order to halt the loss of habitats and restore biodiversity.”
How will these sales achieve that?
Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend have any idea what would happen to partnerships such as the Capital Woodlands project, which cares for biodiversity and conservation in the urban areas of London? More than 300 of my constituents from the inner city have written to express their concern about the wider issues that she has described, but also about those precious green spaces in the capital.
Mary Creagh
My right hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of woodland in the capital, which is something that the Labour Government sought to extend. Also, it is important that people living in cities have the enjoyment of woodlands and access to forests. How do the sales achieve that? What has happened to the Government’s woodland strategy?
What role can a broken-up forest play in carbon capture and storage? The answer is on page 51 of the closely read impact assessment, which says:
“The co-ordinated approach to implementing adaptation measures across the public forest estate would be put at risk through large-scale changes in ownership.”
However, we need to step back from the Public Bodies Bill and the full sell-off and look at what is happening in England’s forests right now. Ministers can sell off 15% of English woodland without any change to the law. [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary says from a seated position that that is why we did it. I have already explained how much was sold under the Labour Government; I want now to come to what will be sold by him. In our 13 years in government, we sold just 4,000 hectares net, reinvesting the proceeds in forestry.
The Secretary of State told the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in November that she and her Ministers had already factored in £74.5 million of sales under existing laws. However, she gave no guarantees that the money would flow back to the Forestry Commission. Indeed she was at pains to point out that
“it would be perfectly possible for us to use the proceeds from sales of these assets towards increasing the capital available for flood defences”.
We need to step back a minute. She has cut the flood defence budget by 27% and wants to sell off our forests to make up the shortfall that she has imposed. That does not strike me as any way to run a Department.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
If the model that the hon. Lady is talking about is so impressive, does she advocate using public money to purchase private sector woods back into the public sector?
Mary Creagh
That is indeed what has happened. [Interruption.] Yes, it has happened in the past. Why the shock? Some people cannot manage the timber or the forest. Forests cost money to run, so what the Forestry Commission does is advise the private sector on how best to manage them. I do not see any problem in that.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Surely what the thousands of people who are contacting MPs about this matter are concerned about is not the public sector buying out private forests, but private developers preventing their families from using them, as the Secretary of State says her children were able to use them. Those developers will build golf courses, luxury chalets and adventure parks on those forests. What is proposed is an excuse for private developers to deprive everyone else.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
People care about our forests in this country. What we all want is a more diverse forest, with the old English oaks alongside other trees, but that is very expensive to achieve, so yes, I want a Forestry Commission that buys more land and turns it into diverse forest. What we have with commercial interests is a drive always to plant fir, to secure quick commercial returns.
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend raises a key point. Much of the timber stock that is now ready for felling is being felled by the Forestry Commission, which is replanting it with broadleaf native English oak, ash and beech. If we sell off the timber stock, we lose the chance to change the shape and structure of the forests. Next year, with the sale of 10,000 hectares, this Government will sell more in one year than Labour sold in 13 years in government, and they will do the same for each of the following years. The holdings could include sites in national parks—I hope that Members from Exmoor are listening—community forests, areas of outstanding natural beauty, or sites of special scientific interest.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I hope that the hon. Lady will not seek to mislead either the House or the nation. Does she not accept that we have one of the toughest regulatory regimes in the world? It is not possible to fell a mature tree in this country without a felling licence, and part of the conditions for such a licence is nearly always that a new tree must be planted, and very often a broadleaf tree.
Mary Creagh
The hon. Gentleman is quite right; and who oversees felling licences? It is the Forestry Commission, which the Government are cutting by 25%.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Does it not surprise my hon. Friend that the Government appear to have made no mention of our much-loved national parks in relation to this issue, despite the fact that some of our best forestry land, including Grizedale and the New Forest, is in national parks?
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I think that the reason is that the Government are planning the transfer of nature reserves away from Natural England, and planning changes to the governance of the national parks. Those changes are coming down the tracks, and those on the Government Benches would do well to heed them now so that they are not caught napping next time.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
I want to raise the issue of the public perception of the plans, and to read out what my constituent, Lindsey Page, has told me. She says:
“I have heard the argument that if a forest area is sold off then there will be safeguards written into the contract of sale that should safeguard the access, but I don’t believe such contracts are enforceable.”
Does not that go to the heart of the matter? The public have no faith that there will be adequate safeguards.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Interventions need to be brief.
Mary Creagh
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
My hon. Friend’s point goes to the heart of the matter. The only legally enforceable rights are public access rights guaranteed under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. The introduction of further “higher rights” would require changes to primary legislation. [Interruption.] Who will enforce the leases in 150 years’ time? It is certain that none of us will be around to remember this debate at that time.
Who will benefit from the sales? The Confederation of Forest Industries’ website says that the price of commercial forests rose
“138% since 2002, which equates to a 17% average annual growth over the period”.
So the forests that the Tories sold off in the 1980s and ’90s have trebled or quadrupled in value. Where is the public benefit from those increased land values? There is none. Forestry land is exempt from inheritance tax after two years, and timber sales have no income tax or capital gains tax. When we sell our forests, the taxpayer loses many times over.
“Private companies buying 75-year rights to woodland would naturally seek to maximise returns from timber extraction”—
[Interruption.] The Minister should allow me to finish my quote before chuntering; I think that he is going to like it:
“There is no sign that the consequences for conservation, recreation and tourism have been properly weighed up in these plans. The Government is using ‘slash and burn’ tactics”.
Those are not my words; that was a press release from the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury in January 2009, when a similar plan was proposed by the Scottish Government. I do not see the right hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander) in the Chamber today.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
I should like to draw my hon. Friend’s attention to a quote:
“Liberal Democrats believe that the SNP are in a real way threatening to destroy rural Scotland through this hugely flawed proposal and are prepared to sell off the family silver for what amounts to a very small, one off sum of money.”
Will she join me and the Liberal Democrats in their “Save our Forests!” campaign?
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. For some reason, the photograph of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury with a “Save our Forests!” sign has disappeared from the Liberal Democrats’ website. If anyone can find it, please will they e-mail it to me?
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend share the anger of thousands of people across the country at the double-dealing of the Liberal Democrats, who say one thing in their campaign leaflets and their pictures, but do the opposite in government? Is it not the case that, on this issue, they cannot see the wood for the fees?
Mary Creagh
My hon. Friend is taking all my lines. How can the Liberal Democrats fight forestry sell-offs in Scotland, yet vote for them here in the Lobby tonight? We can answer that question: they are just doing on the national stage what they have always done on the local stage.
Mr Paice
When the hon. Lady provides the House with quotes, it would be useful if she properly attributed them in the context of the events that they addressed. She referred to the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury, but is she not aware that what he said was in response to the then Scottish Government’s proposals? Is she not aware that we are proposing not 75-year leases, but 150-year leases? Most importantly, is she not aware that under the Scottish national land use scheme—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker
Minister, you will resume your seat now. Thank you. I am on my feet and I have already said that interventions must be brief. That applies to everyone, including Front-Bench Members. This is a very important debate and many Members wish to contribute to it.
Mary Creagh
I missed some of what the Minister said, but I do not understand how his offering leases of 150 years is somehow better than the Scottish Government offering a 75-year lease.
We in the Labour party are proud of our record on forestry. We gave people the right to roam; we established two national parks; we replanted coalfield sites and landfill sites; and we brought trees closer to cities for all to enjoy. We planted 2 million trees in Warrington, 2 million in St Helens and 1 million each in Ellesmere Port, Moseley and Wigan.
The United Nations has announced 2011 as the international year of forestry. The Government have chosen a very strange way of marking it. The countryside is walking, cycling and riding against this Government’s plans to privatise England’s forests. People are furious at this environmental vandalism. We plant a tree to remember our loved ones, to mark an event, to leave a gift for those who come after us. The Forestry Commission costs each of us 30p a year. That is 30p to preserve our shared history, our cherished ancient oaks, ash and beech—sold for 30 pieces of silver! The Government’s plans will destroy the funding model that has protected England’s forests for nearly 100 years. If we sell the commercial timber lands, we starve the ancient woodlands. That is the simple equation and the fundamental fallacy at the heart of the Government’s proposals. The true value of our forests will never be reflected in the price the Government get from selling them.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
A lot of issues have been raised in the debate, and I intend to respond to as many as possible. I undertake to write to hon. Members who have asked specific questions if I do not have time to answer them all.
We have heard speculation about all sorts of risks to aspects of forests if our proposals go ahead. I hope in the next few minutes to be able to debunk most of that nonsense. Those risks have been invented for totally spurious reasons. I stress that this is a consultation, and that it will last for the full 12 weeks, as is the convention. During it, we will listen to many of the organisations referred to this evening that have an interest in the matter, and I will personally discuss it with them.
We have repeatedly stated that existing public benefits will be protected in any transaction. I shall return to that point later. I also emphasise that the programme that we propose will take 10 years. It is not, as one Member suggested, a fire sale; it is a long and transitional but dramatic change in the ownership and management of Britain’s farms and woodlands. If we are not satisfied with any offer that comes forward, there will be no deal on the forest in question.
I am afraid that the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) demonstrated a considerable lack of true knowledge. [Interruption.] If Labour Members wait, they will hear the reality. She asserted that there was no information available about the area of ancient woodlands involved—it is 53,000 hectares, for her information—and, contrary to what she said, SSSIs are included in the mapping process. She also went on about Labour having sold only a net 4,000 hectares, but the fact is that it got rid of 9,000 hectares without adequate protection for public benefits.
Mr Paice
On the issue of—[Hon. Members: “Give way!”] No, I am not going to give way.
On the issue of funding, the reality is open for us to see in the Forestry Commission’s accounts. It costs £17 million a year to run the Forest Enterprise in England, excluding research and regulatory costs.