Oral Answers to Questions

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robathan]

It certainly is the intention to cover all parts of the country. I think that the hon. Gentleman shares my concern that people with mental health problems who have been in the services and who have been affected by their service are given particular care by the Department of Health, assisted by the MOD, and we are determined that that should happen. The extra mental health nurses are being rolled out and I think that most are already in place. That is a Department of Health responsibility, but most, if not all, are already in place, and we certainly take this very seriously. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has visited the King’s centre for military health research, but I recommend that he does so and that he talks to Professor Wesseley—the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy)will know him—who does an excellent job there on our behalf dealing with mental health.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

17. What support his Department is providing to the families of service personnel during the Christmas period.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey)]

We aim to provide the highest level of welfare support to the families of deployed service personnel throughout the year. In addition, local commanders are able to use the family welfare grant to support families with funding for gatherings, children's Christmas events, day trips, pantomimes and coffee mornings. For example, 20th Armoured Brigade has set aside some £16,000 for that purpose. Unit welfare staff will remain on hand to provide help and support throughout the Christmas period.

[Oliver Colvile]

Earlier today, the military wives choir, which is based in my constituency, released its “Wherever you are” single, which I for one very much hope will be the Christmas No. 1. Will my right hon. Friend be willing to join me in urging the Treasury to give the VAT proceeds to its nominated charities, the British Legion and the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association?

Mental Health (Veterans)

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing the debate. It is on an issue that I have spoken about on one or two occasions. I am delighted to say that in my maiden speech I gave warning and notice to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I was likely to carry on banging on about it. I am therefore grateful to have the opportunity to do so. A big problem with such debates is that the issues are covered by not only the Ministry of Defence but the Department of Health, and it would be helpful if we could, at some stage, get a Minister to come to talk about the health implications of what we want.

The right hon. Lady has given a very good briefing on Combat Stress, and I, like her, have been to talk to that organisation. It has been incredibly good at ensuring that I am kept informed and have an understanding of exactly where the problems are. Of course, we have heard a lot about the concentration and focus on veterans who have come out of Iraq or Afghanistan, but we must remember that people who were involved in conflicts in Northern Ireland will also need help. They also make up a significant number of the casualties who were created from that long and bloody conflict.

We talked at some length about how there will be an increasing number of people dealing with combat stress over the years. The Government have announced that we will withdraw from the Afghanistan conflict by 2014, but activities will continue there. During a trip that I made to Afghanistan a couple of weeks ago, I was told that although the troops will not go out on patrol, we will almost certainly need to support and help those in the Afghan army and police, who will need guidance. I am in no doubt at all that elements in the Afghan resistance will seek to ensure that our troops are subject to many attacks.

I grew up with these issues. My father went into the Royal Navy at 14, and was awarded the distinguished service cross for his activities in Narvik. He told me, when I was a child and a teenager, of how it was that he had been responsible for trying to take the head of one of the people he had served in a cabin with to throw it over the side when it was blown off in action. Fortunately, that did not have an impact on us as children. He was a very normal man and lived a full and active life until he was 89, but there was a real chance that such activity could have had a significant impact, not only on my mother, who, I have to say, had the most wonderful sense of humour, but on us, as children. We have all come out, I hope, reasonably sane and balanced.

The other day, I visited the Royal Marines in Exeter. One person told me a sad story of how when he had served abroad in action, he came back and wanted to talk to his wife about what he had faced. He wife looked at him and said, “Don’t start talking to me about any of that. I’ve had a damn awful day as well. I’ve had to deal with 300 e-mails, so that’s my priority”, so he did not talk to her about it. He tried to talk to his mates, who were not involved in the armed services, but they found it very difficult to understand, so he had to find his fellow servicemen—Royal Marine friends—who lived in Aylesbury, where he came from, and talk to them. It was only by having that opportunity to share his experiences that he saw what was going on.

I represent Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, and it is a great pleasure to do so. We have just, literally, had 3 Commando Brigade come back from Afghanistan, and I think it also has some of the scars that come with that.

I am delighted that we have accepted the military covenant into law. I hope that the Secretary of State’s regular reports on that issue will be informed, and that we will be able to talk about mental health. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) on writing the paper called, “Fighting Fit”. I think that that was the benchmark for ensuring that we were able to produce a strategy, and we are taking the issue more seriously.

I am also concerned about the reservists. We are enormously good at talking about regular service personnel, but we do not talk too much about reservists, although I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) has been doing an extraordinarily large amount of work on this. I was talking to the British Legion the other day, and it told me how it did not seem possible to share information on reservists with charities that are delivering support and help. Could we look at that? Can we make sure that the information is much more readily available, so that people such as Combat Stress and the British Legion are aware of exactly where the issue is going to?

[Mr Gray]

There is a particular problem regarding the Territorial Army and reservists in general. Whereas a regimental family closes around someone among the regulars who is bereaved or has mental problems, and regulars tend to live in the same place as where they are serving, reservists often come from right across the land, and there is a much less strong regimental hierarchy to look after them. Reservists need particular help from the Ministry of Defence.

[Oliver Colvile]

I was just about to make that point. Those people work and live in isolation. The problems that they have with decompression are enormous. When they come back, they do not necessarily have the same amount of time as regulars do to unwind and be debriefed. We need to look at that issue. When I was talking to a senior Royal Marine the other day, he said that it would be helpful if the decompression time for reservists could be longer. I urge the Minister to consider that.

Another issue that we need to look at is how the national health service is dealing with the matter. As I said, the question is not just about how the MOD deals with the issue, although the Minister has been doing excellent work on veterans. I support the way in which we will change the structures of the NHS. I voted for the legislation, and I think it is the right way of going about it, but will our general practitioners and commissioning boards be able to manage the matter? If GPs commission such services, how far up the agenda is the mental health issue going to be? How will policies be implemented? Will we have lead GPs taking an interest? I will most certainly be asking my GP commissioning board down in Plymouth how it is proposing to manage the issue. We must think the matter through. We in this place can pass legislation easily, but we must ensure that it is implemented and that we monitor the results.

[Sir Paul Beresford]

That issue was raised with the previous Government. Some time between then and now, national commissioning of Combat Stress long courses was introduced. My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the recommendations of potential patients and about the other niche groups and niche courses. The Department of Health will need to look at the issue.

[Oliver Colvile]

I think that that is right. Local authorities also have to be involved. They will now take increasing responsibility for the matter. I was talking to the leader of my council last week, and she explained that until recently, the primary care trust had not been that interested in engaging on some of those big issues. I will be interested to know how that will happen. The whole story of mental health, as the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles said, is an important issue.

We closely support our armed forces and veterans. Some of us—I happen to agree—are not convinced that we have handled the politics of what is going on in Afghanistan particularly brilliantly. However, if we are going to support our armed services, we must ensure that we look after them properly and that they come out with good results. How we deal with the issue of mental health will be paramount. As others have said, there are issues regarding licensing. In Plymouth, we have significantly more licensed premises than in Liverpool. That is a big issue. When people get depressed, they end up turning to alcohol and other substances. We must ensure that there is a joined-up and co-ordinated approach.

If we do not deal with the issue, we will have problems with our infrastructure, not only of the health service but of education. I heard a story that it is not mainly what comes out in the health stories but what happens in the home that is absolutely, utterly and desperately important. That is where all the problems kick off, and they do not become apparent until significantly later.

Mr Dobbin, thank you for allowing me to talk about the matter. I feel absolutely serious about the issue. It has been a great pleasure and honour to follow the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles.

Oral Answers to Questions

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

The right hon. Gentleman is overstating the case. The Government have been very clear that taking the tough decisions that have had to be taken to clear up the fantasy defence procurement programme we were left will leave us with some limitations in capability in the short to medium term. That is to be regretted, but it was necessary to put our defences on a stable and secure basis in the long term.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

3. What the timetable is for the next terms of business agreement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Peter Luff)]

The terms of business agreements are unique to the maritime sector and reflect our collaborative work with industry to transform the surface ship build and support, and submarine support, areas. The Department has separate TOBAs with BAE Systems Surface Ships and Babcock Marine, both of which are performing well and currently delivering savings in excess of their targeted benefits. These are 15-year agreements and we have not decided whether or how they will be replaced.

[Oliver Colvile]

I presume that, under those conditions, the Secretary of State has not had an opportunity to speak to any of the defence industries.

[Peter Luff]

We have not yet had any discussions with industry about how these arrangements will be carried forward in future—in some 14 years’ time. However, the TOBAs are performing very well and delivering savings in excess of their expected benefits. I promise my hon. Friend that we will talk very carefully to all those involved, including Plymouth city council and him, about any future arrangements when the time comes, but that is not quite yet, I fear.

Armed Forces Personnel

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nick Harvey]

We certainly do, and I agree very much with what the hon. Lady says. The Royal Marines were undoubtedly pathfinders in being the first to take measures to address the issue, and I know that the other services have sat up and taken notice of what they did. I believe that awareness of, and attitudes towards, mental health are shifting throughout the services, and I pay tribute to those in the services who have helped to bring that about. However, the hon. Lady is also right to pay tribute to those outside the services who work with them and who are beginning to address what, for many people, is a real problem.

We know from previous conflicts that some of those presenting with symptoms of mental illness as a result of their engagement have sometimes come forward many years later. However, the statistics show that people are coming forward rather sooner from the current operations in Afghanistan and the previous operations in Iraq, and they will probably continue to do so for many years. Far more have come forward far sooner than in the past, which must in some way reflect the changing attitude towards and awareness of the issue, and the growing availability of support and help to people on the outside. I pay tribute to everybody who is involved in all that.

That co-operative structure in delivering support—government at all levels working with professionals and charities—is being taken forward in other areas too. The defence recovery capability, which is a joint venture between the MOD, Help for Heroes, the Royal British Legion and other service charities, is taking the way we support our wounded, injured and sick personnel to a new level. For complex cases, world-class care is provided at the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre at Headley Court for serving personnel. Personnel recovery centres and recovery and assessment centres are being established in major garrisons, where recovering personnel will be in a position to take advantage not only of excellent medical and rehabilitation services, but of the full range of facilities in large garrison areas. In prosthetics, the Government will work with service charities, including Help for Heroes and BLESMA—the British Limbless Ex-Service Men’s Association—as well as specialists in the NHS, to ensure that high-quality NHS facilities are available to our servicemen and women once they leave service.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

The Hasler unit in my constituency does an enormous amount of work on prosthetics and so on. May I encourage my hon. Friend to come down to Plymouth to see for himself the excellent work being done there?

[Nick Harvey]

It is very kind of my hon. Friend to issue that invitation, but I have actually already visited and seen the work at Hasler for myself. He is right to pay tribute to the terrific work done there. [Interruption.] I did indeed tell my hon. Friend. I visited various parts of the facility in Plymouth, but he was perhaps unaware that the trip was on my itinerary that day. However, he is right: the facilities at Hasler are first class, and I can see the difference that they have made for people. That is an example of good practice that we would hope to emulate everywhere else. The Department of Health will introduce a number of national specialist prosthetic and rehabilitation centres for amputee veterans across the country, because we recognise that they will continue to need help and support throughout their lives. Those are just a few of the initiatives that we have been able to take forward, despite the testing budgetary circumstances we face.

--- Later in debate ---

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak, especially on the eve of Armistice day. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces for naming Plymouth earlier this year as the venue for next year’s national armed services day events. I am sure the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) also welcomes that. Plymouth, needless to say, is a very proud city with a very fine Royal Marine and Royal Naval heritage. The authorities there will most certainly handle armed services day with enormous professionalism, and it will be incredibly well organised.

Tomorrow, 3 Commando Brigade, which is based in my constituency, will march through the city. I am absolutely sure that there will be a very big turnout of people who wish to demonstrate just how loyal to the brigade they are, and how proud they are of the service personnel who have acted in Afghanistan during the past few months or so. Tomorrow and Sunday will provide an opportunity for us to show our respect, alongside civic leaders. It will tinged with sadness, of course, because there have been some casualties, including Corporal Mark Palin, whose funeral I attended in the summer, who lived in Devonport and made the ultimate sacrifice.

In passing, I wish to thank FIFA for deciding, eventually, to allow our English footballers to wear their poppies. That is appropriate, because in 1915, in no-man’s land, there was a ceasefire at Christmas, so the soldiers could play football. Unfortunately they did not play cricket or rugby, but they decided to play football. That is a clear indication of the part that football has played.

Today’s debate is about how we value our armed services, and valuing them is very important. As a Navy brat, with a father who served in the Royal Navy and was partly responsible for getting the gold and the King of Norway out of Norway in 1940, and with a whole series of family members who have served in the services, I can safely say that I think I have had a fairly good understanding of what it is like to serve in the armed forces and make the ultimate sacrifice.

Not only do I represent one of the principal naval ports, but as vice-chairman of the armed forces all-party parliamentary group with special responsibility for the Royal Marines, and through my participation in the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I have gained a much better understanding of how the armed services play such a significant part in the defence of our country.

During the summer on a trip from Malta to Majorca with one of the ships, I had the opportunity to see first hand how our Royal Navy people go about their jobs. One thing they talked about was how they felt let down that they did not have the opportunity to receive a medal for their anti-piracy work. They said that they got one from the EU but were not allowed to wear it because it has not been approved by the Queen. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister ensure that that situation is looked at?

[Mrs Moon]

I understand that there is to be review of the body that is responsible for giving medals, which is an obscure and almost secretive organisation. Should not that responsibility lie with the House and not with some obscure group of flunkies somewhere in a back room?

[Oliver Colvile]

The body should be asked to give advice, but perhaps ultimately, the decision ought to be made here.

[Mr Robathan]

The Honours and Decorations Committee might be obscure, but it exists to give advice to Her Majesty the Queen, who is the fount of honours and who gives medals, not this House. In my opinion, with which hon. Members may disagree—the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) is right that we are having a review—it is important that politics and party politics should not be involved in decisions on medals, because that should be done in the chain of command. I have been under pressure to intervene in gallantry awards for people whom I have never met. However, the granting of honours must be decided not by politicians, but by others who are involved in campaigns.

[Mrs Moon]

rose—

[Oliver Colvile]

If the hon. Lady wishes to intervene again, she is very welcome to do so.

[Mrs Moon]

Transparency is essential, and the big problem with the Honours and Decorations Committee is that it is not transparent.

[Oliver Colvile]

It is the job of the Queen to make decisions on who gets such honours.

In the few minutes available to me, I want to concentrate on the mental health of those members of the armed forces who serve to defend our country. Other hon. Members have spoken with some knowledge of that, especially my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), whose paper on mental health and combat stress, “Fighting Fit”, has made such a significant contribution in helping us to determine our armed forces covenant and the Armed Forces Act 2011.

There is a great deal of difference, however, between passing legislation and ensuring that recommendations are put into action. For many, serving in the armed services will be one of several careers that they will have. It is important that they do not find themselves handicapped from having other careers and doing other jobs. Some might go into teaching and others might go into security or whatever, but it is important that we ensure they can go into other jobs.

A great deal of publicity was given to the fact that a significant minority of servicemen and women suffer from mental ill health as a result of their experiences. It is important that we ensure they are capable of going into other jobs, but according to research by the excellent Combat Stress, which, as my right hon. Friend the Minister knows, was set up in 1919 and which currently helps 4,600 veterans, suggests that of the 191,000 personnel who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, about 4.6%—about 7,600 people—could develop post-traumatic stress disorder, and that another 37,600 people, or 19.7%, could be battling other debilitating mental health problems, such as depression, mood disorders and anxieties. It can take up to 13 years for mental illness to become apparent. We must not waste any time in finding a solution and putting a strategy in place. I welcome the Government’s changes to the delivery of our health services, but I am keen that there be a strategy to ensure that our general practitioners and other health professionals think through how to handle those mental health issues, especially in a garrison town such as Plymouth.

[Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab)]

I agree with everything the hon. Gentleman has said about the incidence of mental ill health and the need for the health service and other bodies to cope with the mental health needs of those in the armed forces. Does he agree, though, that younger people in the armed services suffer more from mental health problems as a result of their involvement in combat after the age of 18? Given that the United Kingdom is the only country in Europe that still recruits soldiers from the age of 16—last year, 17.4% of new recruits were aged 16 and 29.8% were under 18—is it not time to review the age from which we recruit? Should we not recruit over-18s only?

[Oliver Colvile]

If I may say so, that is a non sequitur. A range of people, from across the board, regularly come into my office suffering from a mental health issue, and it is important that we look after all of them, not just a small number.

In preparing for this debate, I spoke with representatives of Combat Stress, who told me of their concern about the lack of detail in the Government’s approach, and asked for assurances that either health care or other policy areas would cover the mental health of armed forces personnel and veterans. It noted that the stigma surrounding people with mental health conditions, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, was still preventing veterans from seeking help.

Last month, I attended, in the Speaker’s apartments, the launch of Combat Stress’s anti-stigma campaign, which aims to highlight the plight of veterans suffering from mental illnesses owing to the scars of war. I was told that 81% of veterans felt ashamed or embarrassed about their mental ill health, and that their fear of stigma and discrimination meant that more than one in three did not feel able to tell their families or friends about their problems. The other day in Lympstone, I met a Royal Marine who told me of his experience. He went home and told his wife about his problems, but she said, “Don’t talk to me about that. I had to deal with 200 e-mails today. I have a lot on.” He went off to find his mates, but that was not good enough either, so ultimately he had to find his fellow Royal Marines. We need to ensure much better connectivity for those people.

Finally, I am concerned about how the reservists are taken care of. We have in place a very good system under which regular armed services personnel can get a lot of help, but I am told that there are problems for reservists leaving theatre and re-entering their community, and that we do not necessarily do as good a job looking after them. I urge my right hon. Friend to do something about that. Reservists take time off from their normal jobs, and their employers expect them to go straight back again, which they will almost certainly do. However, can we do something about that? If we do not sort this out, we risk creating a ticking time bomb that will need much more resources and attention further down the line.

Afghanistan

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I welcome the new Secretary of State for Defence to his position and urge him to stay there for as long as he possibly can, because we need to break this cycle of permanently changing Secretaries of State for Defence. I thank him for agreeing to meet 3 Commando Brigade when it returns, but I ask him for two assurances: that Plymouth will remain a principal naval port in the defence of our country and that he will find time in his diary to visit the Haslar unit, which is part of 3 Commando Brigade in my constituency and which helps members of the armed forces who have been badly hurt and who sometimes have had limbs amputated?

[Mr Hammond]

I am happy to do my best to remain in post for as long as I can, although my hon. Friend might address his plea to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It is the Government’s policy that Plymouth will remain one of the UK’s principal naval bases, and I am happy to arrange a visit to the Haslar unit at a convenient time.

Baha Mousa Inquiry

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

The incident took place some eight years ago. In setting out this morning why the report took such a long time to produce—some three years—Sir William explained the complexities involved and the fact that the team had wanted to go into very great detail to ensure that as much information as possible was put into the public domain, that the full history of the detainee operations was set out, and that the context could be fully understood. He also said in his statement this morning that it would be for others to judge whether the time had been well spent. The report is very long and detailed, but it is actually very readable, and any Member who takes the time to look at it will come to the conclusion that Sir William’s time was extremely well spent.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for putting forward his case so clearly. Will he tell me what the difference is between tactical questioning and interrogation? Also, how can we ensure that this kind of thuggish activity does not become a recruiting sergeant for those who oppose the operations that we are undertaking or endanger the lives of armed forces personnel?

[Dr Fox]

I believe that such activity has been reduced to the lowest possible level by the measures that have been taken. The way in which we conduct operations in Afghanistan is very different from what occurred in Iraq, and that has been one of the major reasons for the success of the counter-insurgency campaign in Afghanistan. My hon. Friend asked about the difference between tactical questioning and interrogation. Tactical questioning is defined as

“the obtaining of information of a tactical nature from captured persons…the value of which could deteriorate or be lost altogether if the questioning was delayed”.

That is obviously something that takes place close to the point of capture. Interrogation is defined as

“the systematic, longer-term questioning of a selected individual by a trained and qualified interrogator”.

That would normally take place in purpose-built facilities, as it does in Afghanistan at the present time.

Defence Reform

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

Some reforms have already been put in place; some are being put in place; and others will be put in place as quickly as possible. I hope that by the time the Department has made a full review of the report and given its full response, we will not be much past September.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend help me to understand how this can improve our relationships and our discussions with our NATO allies?

[Dr Fox]

Our discussions at both ministerial and official level are already full and fruitful. This will allow us to translate anything decided collectively into action in a much more disciplined and cost-controlled way. It is about the effective and efficient running of defence in the United Kingdom rather than any change in doctrine for dealing with our international partners.

Oral Answers to Questions

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

As I have pointed out in the House before, we maintain a core force of some 9,500 troops in Afghanistan. The number has risen to as high as 11,000 over the past year, partly due to temporary surges. It is a normal part of the process in Afghanistan that that number will rise and fall but, as I said, the important element in respect of that number is that we maintain our core commitment to the south of Afghanistan and our combat force there.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

7. When he expects to make a decision on the location of events to mark the 2012 Armed Forces day for the nation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Plans for the national event to mark Armed Forces day 2012 are being considered and a decision will be announced as soon as possible. In the meantime, I look forward to this year’s Armed Forces day on Saturday 25 June, including the national event, which will be hosted by Edinburgh.

[Oliver Colvile]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply and for all his care and diligence in deciding on the location. Is he able to share with us the criteria that will be used in making that decision?

[Mr Robathan]

On the subject of honouring our armed forces, I think that the whole House would wish me to remind everyone that today is Albuhera day—the Middlesex day. Today is the 200th anniversary of the battle of Albuhera, and that explains the naming of Middlesex day. The Middlesex Regiment subsequently became known as the Duke of Cambridge’s Own Regiment, which is particularly fitting this year.

In answer to my hon. Friend’s question about Armed Forces day, I can say that there are no set criteria. However, I have heard at great length his pleas on behalf of Plymouth and I shall certainly bear them in mind.

Submarines and Frigates (Plymouth)

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I thank the Speaker’s Panel for selecting the subject of base-porting destroyers and submarines in my constituency for this debate, and I thank you, Mrs Brooke, for chairing it. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) will try to make an appearance—he has been caught up on the train—because he is keen to support the debate. I realise that the Government are still considering their base-porting strategy, and that the Minister may not be able to give me many answers at this stage. However, I hope he will take my arguments into account during the few weeks remaining before the decision on base-porting is made.

More than 25,000 people in the Plymouth travel-to-work area are employed in the defence industry, either through contractors or in the armed forces. That and the university have been a magnet for a cluster of maritime industries in a part of the country that is dependent on the public sector for employment. In the next few moments, I want to concentrate on the context of Plymouth Devonport within the strategic defence and security review, Devonport’s strategic case as a principal naval port, the benefits of base-porting frigates, destroyers and submarines in Plymouth, Plymouth’s economic dependency on the naval base and our dockyard, and the social and economic consequences of any further reduction in Plymouth as a strategic naval port.

In my submission to the Government’s strategic defence and security review last summer, I made it clear that as a maritime nation we need a strong Royal Navy. The United Kingdom’s basis for our defence should continue to operate through NATO and its framework of collective security, and our relationship with the United States of America. However, that contribution should reflect our geography, maritime history, and our trade and other relationships throughout the world. In that context, the UK’s obvious contribution to NATO should be sea and air power, supplemented with our amphibious and special forces capability.

The naval role should explicitly equip the UK to undertake naval policing responsibilities, including dealing with piracy, drug trafficking and international environmental responsibilities such as conservation of our fish stocks. In addition, the Navy should be equipped to offer more effective international assistance to countries and communities experiencing the consequences of natural and other disasters when they need assistance from the international community, as part of an explicit deployment of soft power as an arm of foreign and defence policy. The implication of that judgment about the UK’s role in NATO is that the Navy should be larger and equipped with greater transport and logistical capability. I fully support the building of the two new aircraft carriers. The Air Force should be maintained to provide effective air power, with multi-purpose aircraft in sufficient numbers to protect the homeland and to wage state-on-state warfare. In addition, it should be equipped with much greater heavy-lifting and cargo-moving capacity.

In my submission, I added that politics is about making political priorities. I welcomed the Chancellor’s decision to reduce the financial envelope of public expenditure in general and to cut the deficit during the lifetime of this Parliament, but I stressed that government is about reordering priorities, and that spending on defence should have a greater emphasis within our budget. Defence spending has fallen not only as a share of national income, but as a proportion of total Government expenditure. The study by the Office for National Statistics in 2009 on public sector output productivity between 1997 and 2007 exemplifies, among other things, how public expenditure priorities have been changed. The weight given to defence within general Government expenditure by service weight fell from 15.1% to 11%. That shows that, during a period of increased international risk when we engaged in more than two protracted operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and public spending was rising rapidly, the priority given to defence was reduced. In my judgment, those priorities must be reversed.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point: that at time like this, we should not cut defence spending. Does he not agree, however, that we have sold the pass on that issue because of the appalling legacy that we inherited from the previous Government? It is now essential that from 2015, no matter what the world looks like, we must see the uplift in defence spending that has been promised for the subsequent five years, without which this country will never again hold its head up in the world.

[Oliver Colvile]

The decision has been made, but other issues must be taken into account. I agree that we inherited a £38 billion shortfall, which needs attention. I also agree that from 2015 we must ensure that we have the ability to build up our capacity.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman explain where he gets the figure of £38 billion from? Even his own Front Benchers have now retreated from that election propaganda put out by Conservative central office.

[Oliver Colvile]

That debate is certainly above my pay grade, but my understanding is that there is a shortfall within the defence budget, and that needs to be sorted out sooner rather than later. What is important is that we must contain public expenditure. It must be reduced, and that is part of the general thrust of what we inherited and must try to deal with.

The principal issue of the level of defence spending is not affordability, but deciding political priorities. If the events in the middle east continue, I firmly believe that our defence budget may have to be reviewed. During the past 13 or 14 years, there has been real uncertainty about Devonport’s future both as a dockyard and as a naval base. Let me make it clear that I am not suggesting that Plymouth should take precedence over Portsmouth, Faslane or Rosyth, but I am arguing that Ministers should not put too much reliance on one naval port for surface ships, and another for submarines. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has already said that we should avoid putting all our eggs in one basket. However, I want to challenge the previous Government’s plans to base-port both aircraft carriers, all the Type 23s, all the Type 45s and eventually the new Type 26s in Portsmouth, and to move the submarines currently based in Plymouth and the submarine school at HMS Raleigh in Cornwall to Faslane.

Last October, when I asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to confirm that Plymouth Devonport will continue to play a major role in the defence of our country and will remain a premier naval port, he replied:

“I can absolutely confirm that.”—[Official Report, 19 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 817.]

In all fairness, he added that both Plymouth and Portsmouth would have to face some challenges. We in Plymouth are up for that, but we are worried that if the previous Government’s plans are implemented, there will be a real threat that Devonport will be left with just three amphibious assault ships and five survey vessels.

I am grateful that the strategic defence and security review confirmed that Devonport will retain flag officer sea training, and deep maintenance work at the dockyard, and that the city will host the amphibious capability through 3 Commando Brigade, which is currently in Afghanistan. However, I am worried that the decision to move the seven Type 23s from Devonport to Portsmouth was taken at a time when the four Type 22s were expected to stay in service for at least another few years. That could make quite a difference to the balance of UK base-porting, and could do enormous damage to the skills base in a city and region where both skills and wages have traditionally been low. If the Government allow Devonport dockyard’s waterfront work to decline, they could make it difficult for Babcock, or its successor, to retain and attract the skilled work force needed to refit our nuclear submarines and surface ships. In my opinion, such a collapse in a service that provides unparalleled value for money could have an impact on whether Babcock is able to deliver economies of scale. That in turn could see greater costs for the Ministry of Defence and the taxpayer, and lead to a reduction in competition.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He may expect me to go in to bat for Portsmouth, but I add my support to his call for all three naval bases to remain open and viable. One of the millstones around the neck of both Plymouth Devonport and Portsmouth is the amount of the defence budget that is spent on maintaining historic buildings. There are about 200 such buildings in Portsmouth’s naval base and, as in Plymouth, although there is no shortage of developers who want to take over those buildings, they are restricted by the MOD’s current procurement protocols. If we want both bases to be able to wash their faces, that issue should be a priority for both the MOD and the Treasury.

[Oliver Colvile]

I agree we should make sure that we use what moneys are available, and spend them on delivering ships, sailors and the kit needed by our armed services to do their job. Later in my speech I will speak further about some of the ways in which one might manage the estate, and I thank my hon. Friend for her contribution.

If all work associated with basing the Type 23 frigates at Plymouth was transferred to Portsmouth, it is likely that the relevant skills and experience would transfer with it. Such a loss could make it difficult and expensive to recreate that frigate expertise back at Plymouth if it is subsequently decided to base some of the new Type 26s at Devonport in the future. Moving the Type 23s would leave Devonport very much as a nuclear dockyard, unable to make use of its additional work force capacity, should submarine work be in a trough.

I welcome the building of the new Type 26 frigates, but I would like to see more of them and more landing platform docks once public finances become available. Ideally, I would—needless to say—like the Type 26s to be located in Devonport. The UK maritime sector takes a great interest in the evolution of Type 26s and the global combat ship programme as the Navy’s next—and only—major surface combatant proposed to replace Type 23 and 22 frigates. Most hon. Members who represent royal naval garrison towns, including my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), recognise the significant potential for the export of that platform, and it rightly lies at the heart of the coalition Government and the MOD’s agenda. Although the sector recognises that BAE Systems has the lead in the ship design and ultimate build, the industry—and we as taxpayers—look to the Government to help ensure that the rest of UK industry gains opportunities to provide the ships with key systems and equipment. We must ensure that other defence contractors are able to make changes to the equipment provided as and when necessary.

Having looked at a number of ships over the past year, I am aware that there is a tendency for pieces of equipment to be bolted on to current frigates and destroyers. No doubt that is also true for submarines and aircraft carriers. The approach I suggest will help maximise export opportunities for the UK, which in turn will deliver much needed growth and create new jobs. Although UK exports of ships have been challenging for some years, the maritime sector’s suppliers of systems, equipment and services have maintained an active export drive that could clearly benefit from further association with this flagship programme.

I understand the argument for moving submarines from Plymouth to Faslane because of the depth of the loch and access to the Atlantic on the west coast of Scotland. I recognise that Faslane has genuine merits, but I feel that the Navy should have submarines based in more than one location. Plymouth has a practical and convenient natural harbour to complement Faslane. When service families are relocated from one part of the country to another, there are always costs. However, whenever I look at arguments about location and the associated costs, I become aware that all Departments, including the MOD, have weak information about their unit costs. It is a matter for the Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office to pursue with vigour and vim.

I do not want to concentrate too much on Devonport’s geographical location, but its position on the western approaches means that it is within easy reach of the necessary training area. It was of little surprise that the previous Conservative Government decided to transfer flag officer sea training from Portland to Devonport in the mid-1990s. If the seven Type 23 frigates were moved from Plymouth to Portsmouth, they would regularly have to travel 150 nautical miles to participate in any training exercises.

Fresh water from the Rivers Plym and Tamar means that the Sound is permanently flooded, and the channels are kept from silting up. Plymouth Sound is not subject to the same amount of commercial traffic as the Solent. Although a terrorist could potentially sink a ship in the Sound—as they could in the Solent—by placing all our frigates and destroyers in Portsmouth, we could run the risk of bottling the vast majority of our surface ship fleet in one port without easy access to the channel. Portsmouth is a busy commercial port, which, with increased traffic, could make naval shipping movements more complicated and hazardous.

I will conclude by talking about the social impact that would be faced by Plymouth and the sub-region should there be a further reduction in the Royal Navy’s presence. Over 38% of the city’s employment depends on the public sector, not including the 5,000 people who work in the dockyard, which is also dependent on defence contracts. The city council, working with trade unions and other interested parties, has commissioned work from Plymouth university to quantify the impact that a further downgrading of Plymouth as a naval base and dockyard would have on the local benefits bill should there be a further loss of skills and jobs. Once that report is ready I will, if I may, brief the Minister on it so that he is aware of some of its findings.

That is not the only piece of work the city is undertaking. As many hon. Members know, Plymouth has an excellent, dynamic university with a fine reputation for marine science research and engineering. It is a global centre for maritime activity and has an historic dockyard and dramatic waterfront. I am currently working with the dean of the university’s business faculty, the editor of the Western Morning News and the council to identify ways in which Plymouth can create a cluster of maritime industries. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister recently wrote to the editor of the Western Morning News to voice his support for that initiative and encourage the dean and the editor to explore ways of making greater use of land that may become available once the base-porting strategy has been finalised. That land-management initiative could deliver further savings to the MOD and ensure that more money is available to be spent on equipment and troops—especially important at a time when the defence budget is under such pressure. I would welcome the chance to brief the Minister on that work once it has been completed. An enterprise zone to deliver that maritime cluster would be most useful.

Whatever decision is made on the base-porting of frigates, destroyers and submarines, I would be grateful to be told the timetable so that we in Plymouth can make the necessary plans to accommodate any changes. As a country, we must place greater emphasis on defence within Government spending than we currently do. We must recognise that we cannot do everything, and we should make our contribution to NATO through an air and sea power capability that reflects our history, geography and wider interests. The Royal Navy should be a central part of that, and I believe that Plymouth can play an important and cost-effective role in helping to make that contribution.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mrs Brooke, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) on securing this debate. He follows his predecessor Linda Gilroy, in being a strong advocate of Plymouth and the dockyard. As a Member, she was tenacious in debate. As a member of the Select Committee on Defence, she put the case not only for Plymouth but for the Navy. On numerous occasions, as a Minister I was on the receiving end of her representations.

Like the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, I pay tribute to the people of Plymouth. As a Minister, I had the honour to visit the town several times. Its contribution to the defence of the country is not only recent, and we should be thankful for what it did previously. I also pay tribute to the men and women of the Royal Navy currently serving in Afghanistan, including the Royal Marines, mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. We often see Afghanistan through an Army prism, but it is important to recognise the contribution made by the Navy.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned HMS Raleigh. It is an excellent facility, and I once had the honour of taking a passing-out parade there. The best of British youth can be changed in a matter of 10 weeks from what one mother described as being difficult to get out of bed and not knowing how to use an iron to people who can make a huge contribution to our country’s defence. We should be proud of the young men and women at HMS Raleigh.

[Oliver Colvile]

May I associate myself with those remarks? I recently visited Lympstone, another Royal Marines training centre. I decided not to go into the sheep-dip because I did not want to spend two hours walking about soaking wet. Nevertheless, I was desperately keen and interested in what was being done.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is right to recognise the work that is done at Lympstone. He and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) mentioned the economic contribution that the dockyard makes not only to Plymouth itself but to the surrounding area; some 25,000 individuals are directly employed by the dockyard and there is a knock-on effect on local business. In addition, I have seen for myself the support that exists for the excellent university.

My hon. Friend rightly paid tribute to the trade unions at the dockyard which, over many years, have campaigned for the dockyard and ensured that its case is put to both Tory and Labour Governments. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport mentioned the cross-party nature of the campaigning that has been carried out by the local authority. When I visited Plymouth, I was very impressed with the way in which the members of the local authority, irrespective of political party, spoke with one voice for Plymouth and the dockyard.

The previous Labour Government conducted a naval base review, in which the decision was made to support Faslane, Plymouth and Portsmouth. However, there were those who said that we should put all our eggs in one basket at Portsmouth, as the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) mentioned. I am sure that there are many who still say that and the Minister will have to address those pressures in the coming weeks. It has been said, perhaps unfairly, that some of the naval top brass prefer Portsmouth to Plymouth because it is nearer to London.

The review was supposed to bring some stability to the future footprint of the Royal Navy in the UK, which is important. Earlier, we mentioned forces accommodation. When I was the Minister responsible for armed forces accommodation, I was conscious that we needed long-term investment in the naval estate. However, that is difficult, especially if the sword of Damocles is hanging over a site—whether it be a naval base, an RAF base or an army base—because there is a tendency not to invest. We have certainly seen that at Faslane and other places. The delay by the previous Government in making a decision on the long-term basing of submarines meant that investment did not go into armed forces family accommodation. If we want our armed forces to be ready for deployment and to fight in difficult situations, it is vital to have good family accommodation and support. For far too long, we have thought of the families as secondary to the fighting forces. They are, in my opinion, integral and important. That is particularly relevant for the Royal Navy because individuals are away at sea for many months. It is important that, while they undertake their duties, they are content and feel that their families are being well looked after.

The naval base review agreed that HMS Ocean, HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark would be based at Plymouth along with the hydrographic survey ship and the Type 22s and Type 23s. More importantly, there was also a 15-year agreement with Babcock Marine on the dockyard itself. When people look at the arguments for or against Plymouth or Portsmouth, they should consider the fact that the dockyard at Portsmouth has not been viable since 1984, when it was closed. That is an important argument for retaining Plymouth. We need a dockyard capability not only for nuclear but for the refit of existing frigates and other service ships.

With the decommissioning of the Type 22s under the strategic defence and security review, there will be very little left at Devonport. The current review will consider whether the dockyard has a future. However, as the hon. Member for New Forest East so eloquently put it, to put our eggs in one basket would be a mistake. The arguments that were proposed by the previous Government in their base-porting review are relevant today. Although the SDSR is a defence and security review, it is basically led by the Treasury. Having dealt with the Treasury on a number of occasions, I am sure that it will be breathing down the neck of the Minister to ensure that it gets every last pound from any decisions that are made to free up money in the short term.

Support for UK Armed Forces and Veterans

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this debate. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) on securing this debate, which is apt, given the announcements earlier this week about redundancies in the armed forces, as the coalition Government try to close the £38 billion shortfall in the Ministry of Defence budget.

Veterans’ issues are very important in my Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport constituency, which is not only one of the homes of the Royal Navy—of which it is very proud—but a home for the Royal Marines and for 3 Commando Brigade, which will go to Afghanistan in just a few weeks. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all going there, to wish them the best of luck and to wish them Godspeed in their safe return—without any loss of life and hopefully without injuries.

I know that no Conservative Members were elected in the hope that we would cut our armed forces or make people redundant. I am sure that applies to Opposition Members as well. I was horrified by the recent announcement about the sacking of service personnel by e-mail, but I am delighted by and greatly welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment that nobody in 3 Commando Brigade will be made redundant while away.

We must recognise that today’s servicemen and women are tomorrow’s veterans. They put their lives on the line to protect our freedoms and we need to ensure that we look after them afterwards. Many people of my age—I had a father who served and gained a distinguished service cross in the Narvik campaign in the 1940s—see veterans as people who either served in the second world war or in Korea or, for that matter, in the Falklands. It is interesting to note that next year we will commemorate the 30th anniversary of the Falklands conflict. I would be grateful if the Minister told us what we are going to do to remember that anniversary—next year as well—because many people from Plymouth were certainly affected by the conflict. I add a strong plea that the Minister has heard before—I am going to repeat it—for Plymouth to be the centre for the national commemoration for veterans weekend in 2012. We should remember that Plymouth is not Portsmouth and that we are not 20 minutes away from Bristol.

This picture of white-haired veterans is not exactly appropriate for today. Today, a lot of young people in their late 20s and early 30s are going to be our veterans. Their time saving our country and putting their lives on the line is just one part of a series of careers that they might have during the course of their time on this earth.

I welcome the initiative of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education to recruit some veterans into the education system to help with teaching. I remember being at prep school as a child of eight. One of my masters was regularly carted off to hospital because of the gas he had inhaled in the first world war. We had nothing but total support for him, and his authority in the classroom ensured that we were brought up in a very disciplined way. If I may say so, I certainly hope that our service personnel who become teachers will act in the same way to put some authority and discipline back into the classroom—especially in some of our inner-city schools. I am delighted that Plymouth university is in the process of sponsoring a marine academy in the city. I hope it will look at ways of recruiting some of the ex-service personnel to teach there, which would be most helpful. Will the Minister spell out how this plan might work?

The other big issues faced by our veterans relate to mental health. Last autumn, the Prime Minister gave a commitment that the Government would implement the “Fighting Fit” report by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). That has been welcomed by several charities, including Combat Stress and Plymouth Mind. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister update us on progress on ensuring that the actions recommended in the report are delivered? Will he confirm whether those actions will be fully funded by the national health service? When my right hon. Friend the Minister is next in Plymouth, perhaps he will join me in visiting the Hasler company in HMS Drake, as they do great work to deal with complex issues, including issues of mental health.

We have talked a great deal about veterans who have been full-time soldiers, sailors and airmen, but reservists are occasionally overlooked. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti)—he will look horrified that I am referring to him again—who was a reservist with 29 Commando before he entered the House, regularly reminds me that reservists sometimes have to go back to homes and communities where no one has any idea what they have been up to.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is kind to mention my service, but I want to put it on record that it was very modest. May I echo his comments about 3 Commando Brigade, and especially about the men from 29 Commando who are now going back out to Helmand? I hope that they have a great tour and come back safely, and I wish I was going with them.

[Oliver Colvile]

I thank my hon. Friend. We should ensure that the mechanisms and infrastructure are in place to look after reservists once they come back.

Last week, on a course, I was approached by the Royal British Legion, which told me that it would be enormously helpful if the Government made reservists’ details available to charities. To overcome data protection restrictions, perhaps reservists should be asked to tick a box that would allow their details to be shared with such excellent charities. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will be willing to take that on board. Will he ensure that, as they say in the Navy, it is “Anchors aweigh”, and that we see action on this matter?