Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading
Friday 20th June 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

I stand at the Dispatch Box alongside the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Sarah Sackman), not as the MP for Aberafan Maesteg, representing the views of my constituents—although I thank each and every one of them who took the time to contact me with their considered opinions—but as the Minister responsible for ensuring that the Bill, if passed, is effective, legally robust and workable.

I thank Members across the House, on both sides of the debate, for their consideration of this legislation through its parliamentary stages and for their thoughtful contributions. I particularly thank the members of the Public Bill Committee for their detailed scrutiny over more than 29 sittings and 80 hours. This Bill has received more parliamentary time than most Government and private Members’ Bills, and the debate has been respectful and well considered throughout.

It is worth noting, of course, that the subject has received extensive and detailed consideration over a number of decades, both in this House and the other place, as well as beyond Parliament. Many Members will recall that the Bill before us today follows many years of examination and analysis, including reports such as the inquiry of the Health and Social Care Committee in 2023 and the accumulation of evidence from other jurisdictions. I would like to pay tribute to colleagues and campaigners on both sides of the argument for their contributions to this profoundly important conversation.

I will make some brief comments about the most significant alterations to the Bill since its introduction, from the perspective of their importance to the technical and legal workability of the legislation. The scheme set out in the Bill now includes assisted dying review panels. Multidisciplinary panels would grant a certificate of eligibility if they were satisfied that all the relevant requirements had been met. The panel would have to hear from the person seeking assistance, at least one of the doctors, and any other relevant persons. They would be responsible for monitoring and reporting on the operation of the Act, a role that was previously assigned to the chief medical officer. The commissioner would also appoint a dedicated board to advise on the impact of the Bill on disabled people.

The Bill’s commencement clause has been amended so that any provisions that have not yet come into force will automatically do so four years after the Bill is passed. Specific training requirements for doctors playing a formal assessing role under the Bill have been added. There is now provision for an independent advocate to support qualifying persons to understand their options for end-of-life care and the process under the Bill.

In terms of employment protections, amendments that have been made on Report mean that no one is under any duty to participate in the provision of assistance in accordance with the Bill. There are also now employment protections to protect employees and other workers from being subject to any detriment from opting in or opting out of providing assistance under the Bill, and to protect employees from dismissal.

It just falls to me to thank all hon. Members once again for their extremely valuable contributions to this sensitive debate, and to reiterate that should it be the will of Parliament for this legislation to pass, the Government will ensure the safe and effective implementation of this service.

[Kit Malthouse]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Naz Shah]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to clarify this.

To sum up, this comes back to some of the questions I have for the Minister, and I wonder whether he can answer some of them. I say that especially because the Committee has had lots of debates on amendments tabled by the Government via my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley giving the Secretary of State statutory duties. Perhaps the Secretary of State will be able to clarify this issue and make it watertight using regulations.

Have we had an assessment of what the impact would be on the provision of healthcare if assisted death were permitted in either a hospice or care home, and is the Minister happy to share that assessment with the Committee? For example, if palliative care specialists are saying, “X amount of people would no longer want to be involved, so there is a real risk of an exodus of specialists from hospices,” we need to know whether there has been an assessment of that. Perhaps the Government can help us to understand that real concern from palliative care specialists.

Given that the Minister mentioned his visit to a hospice this week, has he had any discussions with Care England care homes about allowing this process to happen in care homes themselves? How have the concerns of clinical staff about allowing an assisted death in their healthcare facility been assessed, and have those concerns been put to him? How many staff have indicated that they would need to leave the NHS, care providers or hospices if an assisted death were mandated on their premises?

Coming back to beliefs, there is also the element of charitable bodies. Have we spoken to the Charity Commission about the impact on those bodies if they were pressured by the Bill into changing their charitable aims? Would they be protected from providing assisted death because of their charitable aims?

For me, this debate has raised more questions than answers, and there is much more discussion to be had. I am happy to listen to the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, as I can then intervene and probe further.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship this morning, Ms McVey, even though it is a little later than originally planned.

Amendment 480 is intended to extend the category of those protected from being obligated to participate in the provision of assisted dying under clause 23 from registered medical practitioners, registered nurses and registered pharmacists or pharmacy technicians to all individuals. The amendment also seeks to clarify what an individual can refuse to do under clause 23(1), by setting out a non-exhaustive list of activities under the Bill that an individual would not be obligated to participate in. The amendment also specifies that the ability not to participate in the provision of assisted dying does not override any duty to signpost someone to information about assisted dying; to perform clerical, secretarial or ancillary acts; or to perform life-saving acts or grave injury-saving acts.

The amendment would introduce significant legal uncertainty and may mean that a person who had opted in to providing services under the Bill could refuse to continue to do so or could use clause 23 as a justification not to perform their duties as described in the Bill. For example, they may use the amendment as justification for not checking eligibility criteria, discussing prognosis or palliative care options, or performing other requirements under the Bill.

Amendment 480 may also conflict with other provisions. It states:

“no individual is under any duty…to be involved, directly or indirectly, in the provision of assistance”,

in accordance with the Bill. That may, for example, mean that although doctors are required under the Bill to notify a cancellation, they would be allowed to refuse to do things under the Bill, even if they have opted in to providing assisted dying services. It is not clear which provision would take precedence, which could allow the doctor to decline to notify a cancellation, by arguing that they are relying on clause 23(1).

Amendment 483 is intended to extend

“the range of activities which medical practitioners and other healthcare providers are not under an obligation to provide to include activities closely related to the provision of assistance”

under clause 23(1).

Amendment 484 is intended to expand the protection from being subject to a detriment by an employer at clause 23(2), to include where a registered medical practitioner or health professional refuses to participate in activity closely related to the provision of assistance. The term,

“activity closely related to the provision of assistance”,

is not defined, and that could create uncertainty as to what types of activity it is intended to cover.

The Bill does not, as currently drafted, specify where the provision of assistance may or may not take place. Amendment 441 would prevent there being any obligation on a care home or hospice regulated by the Care Quality Commission or Care Inspectorate Wales to permit the provision of assistance to be carried out on their premises. The effect of the amendment may be to limit the places where assistance could be provided. It may thereby reduce access to an assisted death for those residing within a care home or hospice, if a care home or hospice did not wish to allow an assisted death to be provided on its premises. The amendment could preclude some people from accessing services under the Bill if they were near the end of life and leaving their usual place of residence was therefore impeded. It may result in inconsistent treatment for patients when seeking to access an assisted death. That could potentially engage a person’s rights under article 8 of the ECHR—the right to respect for private and family life.

Amendment 481 has two parts. The first aims to ensure that employees cannot participate in the assisted dying process in the course of their employment if their employer has chosen not to participate in assisted dying. The effect of the amendment could be to limit the places where assistance would be provided, and it may result in inconsistent treatment for patients when seeking to access an assisted death. That could engage a person’s rights under article 8 of the ECHR—the right to respect for private and family life.

The explanatory notes suggest that the second part of the amendment seeks to ensure that employers require employees to provide or not provide assisted dying under schedule 9 of the Equality Act 2010. That schedule enables an employer to specify that having a protected characteristic is a requirement of a job when having that characteristic is crucial to the post and a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. The ability to specify occupational requirements is conferred by schedule 9 of the Equality Act, and reference to it in this amendment would not have any additional effect.

The purpose of new clause 22 is to provide that the owners or occupiers of a premises would not be obligated to permit the self-administration of an approved substance on their premises. This right to refuse would not extend to a person who has an interest in the land but who is not occupying or operating on those premises, such as a landlord. It is unclear if the term “premises” would apply to a residential property, care home or hospice. As a result, the amendment may mean that someone who is terminally ill and is residing in, for example, a care home or a hospice could be required to leave that care home or hospice in order to receive assistance under the Bill if the care home or hospice owner did not wish to allow assisted dying on their premises. That could engage a person’s rights under article 8 of the ECHR—the right to respect for private and family life.

[Jack Abbott]

Another example raised by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire was about hospitals under certain trusts—because of the word “premises”. In the Government’s view, would hospitals and other such facilities beyond hospices and care homes also be included within this new clause?

[Stephen Kinnock]

As I was saying, the scope of the term “premises” is unclear. Is it residential property, care home, hospice or indeed hospital? That is one of the challenges with the drafting of the amendment: the scope and definition of the term is not clear.

[Danny Kruger]

We are going to get to the question of the NHS provision, but, surely, if it is the decision of Parliament and the Secretary of State that assisted suicide should be provided through the NHS, then that is what will happen. It might be that there are some trusts that will have some sort of autonomy—to the extent that they can decline to deliver certain services—but, if this is a healthcare treatment that is regulated in that way and if it is to be set out as something that shall be provided by the NHS, surely hospitals will not be in a position to decline to deliver, if they are indeed NHS hospitals. The purpose of these amendments is to protect private and charitable providers. Does the Minister agree?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree with the sentiment of the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. The challenge is that the way in which the amendment is drafted could well lead to unintended consequences, because the scope is not clear. If we are not clear what the scope is, it could potentially be exponential.

New clause 23 would prevent regulated care homes and hospices from facing any detrimental consequences for not providing or permitting assistance in accordance with the Bill. This also means that their funding must not be conditional on them providing or permitting such assistance to take place on their premises. As a result, a person who is terminally ill and is residing in a care home or hospice could be asked or required to leave that care home or hospice in order to receive assistance under the Bill, if that care home or hospice provider does not wish to allow assisted dying on their premises.

In such circumstances, the care home or hospice provider would not be able to be placed in any detriment as a result of any action or decision taken. This could engage a person’s right under article 8 of the ECHR. Further, public authorities would not be able to persuade care homes or hospices to provide or permit assistance to take place on their premises by offering additional funding if they agreed to do so. Equally, if a public authority gave funding to care homes or hospice providers in recognition of their agreement to provide or permit assisted dying on their premises, and that provider later decided not to provide or permit the assistance, and spent the funding on other matters, the public authority would not be able to recover the funding if it were given unconditionally.

Clause 23 sets out that no registered medical practitioner or other health professional would be under any duty to participate in the provision of assistance in accordance with the Bill. It also sets out that employees cannot be subject to any detriment by their employer for exercising their right to either participate or not participate in the provision of assistance in accordance with the Bill. Further amendment to the clause will be required on Report to ensure that the opt-out in clause 23(1) and the employment protections in clause 23(2) work effectively alongside the duties imposed on health professionals in other provisions of the Bill as amended in Committee.

I hope those observations were helpful.

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

Thank you for stepping into the breach this morning, Ms McVey.

Clause 23 provides that there will be no obligation on medical practitioners and health professionals to provide assistance as set out in the assisted dying process. We know doctors and other health professionals hold a variety of views on assisted dying. A significant number are in support of what this Bill sets out to do, and the experience from other jurisdictions is that that number increases once it is seen to be working safely and effectively in practice. Others, of course, would object to being involved at any stage and I am very respectful of that. The Bill is about giving terminally ill people choice and autonomy, but it is absolutely right that the principle of autonomy is extended to registered medical practitioners, health professionals and others.

As such, I turn to amendment 480. I agree with the intention behind the amendment—nobody should have a duty to be involved with the provision of assistance in accordance with the legislation—and I think there is consensus across the Committee on that.

However, I am concerned about the drafting of the amendment, the lack of clarity around being directly or indirectly in the provision of assistance, and the framing of the selective list of activities. I fear that the amendment could have unintended consequences and an impact on continuity of care, and I take on board the Minister’s comments about the significant legal uncertainty that that would create. I therefore cannot support the amendment as drafted but, as I have said, I am happy to work with the hon. Member for East Wiltshire to consider an alternative amendment that would better achieve the aim of ensuring that no one has an obligation to take part in the assisted dying process.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jake Richards]

I welcome the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley. As I think she accepts, given that she tabled the amendments, there is an oddity with the Bill as drafted that has to be fixed, and I think the amendments would do that.

I appreciate that there is some force to the argument of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire. I would be interested to hear what the Minister says, but it seems to me that there is a balancing act between ensuring that medical practitioners and clinicians are working in an environment in which they do not constantly feel the heat of a lawyer’s breath on their neck, and ensuring protections. There is some force to the argument for removing the clause altogether, but on balance I see more force in the argument that we should have more clarity.

I want to raise some more issues that need to be considered in the light of the provision for aspects of civil liability in this process. That is why last night I supported the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich, which was not passed, relating to guidance for doctors in certain circumstances during this process. I raise those points about the standard of care and the duty that doctors and clinicians will be working to throughout the process for the record, and so that the Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley can take them forward. I raise those questions not because they are unanswerable—I think they are answerable—but because we need to work out exactly what we are asking our doctors to work to, and what form that guidance comes in. Does it need to be legitimised by Parliament, or can it be undertaken by a Minister?

I do not think I need to expand greatly on the point, but we can all imagine circumstances in which clinicians are compromised in their view of the duty of care that they have to the patient. When this process begins in this jurisdiction, it needs to be clear what that is.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Dowd. Well done for arriving on time, by the way.

These amendments aim to ensure that, if passed, this legislation will be legally and operationally workable. I will offer a technical, factual explanation and rationale for them. Amendments 501, 502 and 503 replace clause 25(1) and instead provide that the provision of assistance in accordance with the Bill will, of itself, not give rise to civil liabilities in certain circumstances. Those circumstances are where an individual provides assistance in accordance with the Bill, where an individual performs any other function under the Bill in accordance with the Bill, and where an individual assists a person seeking to end their life under the Bill, in connection with the doing of anything under the Bill. Proposed new subsection (1A) would create an exception to the exclusion of civil liabilities, providing that civil liabilities can arise in cases when an act is performed dishonestly or otherwise than in good faith, as well as in cases of negligence. Without this amendment, there is the possibility that clause 25(1) could provide blanket immunity to a person from all civil liabilities, even when they may have been negligent in their actions in providing assistance in accordance with the provisions in the Bill.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will speak briefly on this issue. An important point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley about the protections that clause 25 and these amendments provide for medical practitioners. I think the clause strikes the right balance, but it is important to remove the blanket immunity. My hon. Friend referred to codes of practice and codes of conduct. We have talked a lot about good medical practice from the General Medical Council, and we have a clause in the Bill on codes of practice. I feel confident in the clause, but I am still having regular meetings with officials about the legal implications of the Bill. I will continue those conversations, but I am happy that the clause as it stands serves the correct purpose.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jake Richards]

I welcome the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley. As I think she accepts, given that she tabled the amendments, there is an oddity with the Bill as drafted that has to be fixed, and I think the amendments would do that.

I appreciate that there is some force to the argument of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire. I would be interested to hear what the Minister says, but it seems to me that there is a balancing act between ensuring that medical practitioners and clinicians are working in an environment in which they do not constantly feel the heat of a lawyer’s breath on their neck, and ensuring protections. There is some force to the argument for removing the clause altogether, but on balance I see more force in the argument that we should have more clarity.

I want to raise some more issues that need to be considered in the light of the provision for aspects of civil liability in this process. That is why last night I supported the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich, which was not passed, relating to guidance for doctors in certain circumstances during this process. I raise those points about the standard of care and the duty that doctors and clinicians will be working to throughout the process for the record, and so that the Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley can take them forward. I raise those questions not because they are unanswerable—I think they are answerable—but because we need to work out exactly what we are asking our doctors to work to, and what form that guidance comes in. Does it need to be legitimised by Parliament, or can it be undertaken by a Minister?

I do not think I need to expand greatly on the point, but we can all imagine circumstances in which clinicians are compromised in their view of the duty of care that they have to the patient. When this process begins in this jurisdiction, it needs to be clear what that is.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Dowd. Well done for arriving on time, by the way.

These amendments aim to ensure that, if passed, this legislation will be legally and operationally workable. I will offer a technical, factual explanation and rationale for them. Amendments 501, 502 and 503 replace clause 25(1) and instead provide that the provision of assistance in accordance with the Bill will, of itself, not give rise to civil liabilities in certain circumstances. Those circumstances are where an individual provides assistance in accordance with the Bill, where an individual performs any other function under the Bill in accordance with the Bill, and where an individual assists a person seeking to end their life under the Bill, in connection with the doing of anything under the Bill. Proposed new subsection (1A) would create an exception to the exclusion of civil liabilities, providing that civil liabilities can arise in cases when an act is performed dishonestly or otherwise than in good faith, as well as in cases of negligence. Without this amendment, there is the possibility that clause 25(1) could provide blanket immunity to a person from all civil liabilities, even when they may have been negligent in their actions in providing assistance in accordance with the provisions in the Bill.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will speak briefly on this issue. An important point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley about the protections that clause 25 and these amendments provide for medical practitioners. I think the clause strikes the right balance, but it is important to remove the blanket immunity. My hon. Friend referred to codes of practice and codes of conduct. We have talked a lot about good medical practice from the General Medical Council, and we have a clause in the Bill on codes of practice. I feel confident in the clause, but I am still having regular meetings with officials about the legal implications of the Bill. I will continue those conversations, but I am happy that the clause as it stands serves the correct purpose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger]

Absolutely; that is what I am doing.

I referenced the debate we had last night, which I hope is within scope, because the suggestion has been either that the Bill insufficiently addresses the need for a regulatory regime for the approval of drugs specifically for the purpose of assisted dying or, as the Government are saying, that the drugs’ existing licences are sufficient for these purposes. Is the Government’s position that there will be no regulator involved and that this will sit entirely with the Minister, as in this clause? If regulators are to be involved, will further legislation be needed?

I will not repeat evidence from the Royal Pharmaceutical Society concerning the legal arrangement, but I will refer to evidence submitted by Máire Stapleton, a pharmacist with more than 30 years’ experience in clinical governance, who made this point:

“Based upon a preliminary review of current published data, it is difficult to see how the regulatory and professional standards for prescribing and dispensing unlicensed drugs can be met.”

There is further evidence to that effect from the Royal Pharmaceutical Society, pharmacists and barristers.

Given that there is so little on the face of the Bill and no guardrails for the use of the power that will be given to the Secretary of State, why is the negative procedure judged appropriate for something of this significance? It cannot be argued that the negative procedure is needed because the amendments might need to be made quickly and frequently—that cannot be the case, because we have not yet authorised the regime. The negative procedure would allow the Secretary of State quite unjustified ability to change these processes without any requirement for a parliamentary debate or vote.

Lord Hermer, the Attorney General, has said that this new Government will take a new approach, considering the

“real need to consider the balance between primary and secondary legislation, which in recent years has weighed too heavily in favour of delegated powers.”

He criticised the previous Government’s

“excessive reliance on delegated powers, Henry VIII clauses, or skeleton legislation,”

which

“upsets the proper balance between Parliament and the executive. This not only strikes at the rule of law values I have already outlined, but also at the cardinal principles of accessibility and legal certainty.

In my view, the new Government offers an opportunity for a reset in the way that Government thinks about these issues. This means, in particular, a much sharper focus on whether taking delegated powers is justified in a given case, and more careful consideration of appropriate safeguards.”

I conclude with this question to the Minister: has she considered the advice of Lord Hermer in coming to a view on the appropriateness of this clause and the way that these powers have been taken? As the Hansard Society notes,

“the Government has an overriding duty of care to the statute book. As such, any powers that may accrue to Ministers because of a Private Member’s Bill must be acceptable to the Government. It must therefore take a view on the powers and their scrutiny”.

Has the sponsor or the Minister consulted with the Royal Pharmaceutical Society on the sufficiency of this power? Has sufficient work been done to look at the workability and operationalisation of this clause? I hope the Committee will join me in supporting these amendments.

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairship today, Mrs Harris. Amendment 442 would require the Secretary of State to make regulations for the prescribing, dispensing, transporting, storage, handling and disposal of approved substances, including the keeping of records relating to those activities. That differs from the Bill’s current approach, which enables the exercise of a power by the Secretary of State to make such regulations.

In practice, where the Secretary of State makes regulations specifying substances for the purpose of the Bill under clause 20, they will necessarily also make regulations for the prescribing, dispensing and transporting of said substances under clause 28. However, requiring, rather than enabling, the regulations under clause 28 to be made may reduce flexibility in terms of their timing as there is a range of technical issues that may need to be resolved—for example, clinical questions on how an approved substance should be prescribed or dispensed.

Amendment 443 would mean that regulations for the prescribing and dispensing of approved substances could be made only in relation to substances that have already been approved by

“the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and either the National Institute for Clinical Excellence or the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group”.

That may impact the operational delivery of the Bill as the drafting is ambiguous. One possible interpretation is that the amendment may require the approved substances to be licensed by the MHRA specifically for the purpose of assisted dying. That would require additional powers to amend medicines regulations, which are not currently provided for in the Bill. NICE and the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group typically make recommendations only on medicines that have already been proven to be safe and efficacious. They do not approve medicines in the way the amendment implies, and this could infringe upon the role of the MHRA.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

Would the Government’s intention not be to sign this duty over to a regulator?

[Stephen Kinnock]

My understanding is that the amendment would place the duty on a medical practitioner. I am speaking to the purpose and effect of the amendment, which is not about a regulator; it is about a medical practitioner. Does that answer my hon. Friend’s question?

[Naz Shah]

I am not sure, but I will give it more thought.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

Amendment 445 would require that the Secretary of State make regulations about enforcement, including provision of imposing civil penalties, when making regulations for prescribing, dispensing, transporting, storage, handling and disposal of approved substances, including the keeping of records relating to those activities. That would be a change from the current approach in the Bill, which gives a power to the Secretary of State to make such provisions. In practice, where the Secretary of State makes regulations specifying substances under clause 20, they will necessarily make regulations under clause 28 for the prescribing, dispensing and transporting of said substances, and on enforcement, which would include imposing civil penalties.

[Danny Kruger]

Further to the intervention from the hon. Member for Bradford West, I would like to understand whether the Minister envisages an independent regulator of any sort being responsible for overseeing the regime? We currently do not know what that will be—a future Secretary of State will design it—but does he envisage that there will be some sort of regulatory body with that job, and if not the MHRA, who?

[Stephen Kinnock]

We will at some point get to clause 32, which is about the way in which the system will work, specifically with the NHS, and the role of regulation will absolutely be debated in that context. My sense is that it would be best to confront that issue when we debate clauses 32 and 39. Officials are currently working with the promoter of the Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley. We know that her policy intent is for the service to be an integral part of the NHS, but with some flexibility in the way it is delivered; we have briefly touched on that in previous debates. As an integral part of the NHS, it will have to be a regulated service, based on the foundations of the way in which the NHS is regulated more broadly. I think the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is basically yes, but the right place to debate it and potentially amend the Bill would be in clauses 32 to 39.

[Danny Kruger]

We look forward to the amendments that the Government are working on, but, as part of that process, does the Minister envisage that there will be amendments to NHS legislation itself?

[The Chair]

Order. We need to discuss the amendment, not speculate about the future.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Thank you, Mrs Harris; you have helped me to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question in a far more pithy and direct way than I could have. I think it is best for us to wait for us to discuss clauses 32 and 39, when we can really get into the meat of the precise issue he raised.

Amendment 521 would change the requirements in clause 28 so that regulations governing the prescribing, dispensing, transporting, storage, handling, disposal and records relating to these activities of approved substances under the Bill must be laid in draft form and approved by resolution in each House of Parliament. This is a change from the current requirement in the Bill that the regulations are subject to the negative procedure. Both procedures are subject to Parliamentary scrutiny. However, the requirement for active debate in both Houses of Parliament as a result of the amendment would extend the timeline to make or change regulations.

Amendment 485 is similar. It would alter the requirement in clause 28 that regulations governing prescribing, dispensing, transporting, storage, handling, disposal and records relating to these activities of approved substances are subject to the affirmative procedure, instead of the negative procedure as drafted. Similar to the change of procedure proposed by amendment 521, the affirmative procedure would extend the timeline to make or change regulations.

That is the end of my observations. I hope they were helpful to the Committee.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will speak briefly about amendments 485 and 521, on which I will respectfully disagree—not for the first time—with the hon. Member for East Wiltshire. I believe the negative procedure is perfectly adequate in matters of this kind. We had a similar debate the other day.

I will also speak to amendments 442 and 445 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for York Central. Although I take on board the comments of the Minister about time pressures, I am minded to support both these amendments. Regulations are important and I have no problem with placing the duty on the Secretary of State in those two instances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger]

I want to quickly explain that my amendment 523 is consequential on amendment 447, but there is drafting issue. I will not go into the details but, if amendment 447 is made, as I understand it will be, my amendment 523 is not necessary. I would be grateful for the Minister’s guidance: if he has been advised by parliamentary counsel that the clause as amended by amendment 447 is okay and there is no need for amendment 523, I do not propose to press it to a vote.

[Stephen Kinnock]

This group of amendments relates to clause 30 of the Bill and the codes of practice that may be issued by the Secretary of State.

As the Bill is drafted, the Secretary of State may issue one or more codes of practice in connection with arrangements pertinent to the assisted dying process. Amendment 447 requires the Secretary of State to issue such codes, substituting “must” for “may”. As such, codes of practice would need to be issued for all matters listed in clause 30(1).

Amendment 394 has the effect of broadening to Secretary of State’s power to issue codes of practice, explicitly enabling the Secretary of State to issue guidance in connection with

“information and support to persons with learning disabilities who are eligible to request assistance”

under the Bill, including information and support about the role of advocates. I note that under the Equality Act 2010, health providers are already under a duty to make reasonable adjustments in the provision of services, including for persons with a learning disability. That duty includes taking steps to provide information, including on what support services are available.

As drafted, clause 30(1)(c) provides that the Secretary of State may issue codes of practice on

“the arrangements for ensuring effective communication in connection with the provision of assistance…including the use of interpreters”.

Amendment 448 provides that, if the Secretary of State issues codes of practice that include the use of interpreters, those interpreters should be “registered and qualified”. The amendment would limit those who are able to translate to only those who are registered and have a recognised qualification. However, the amendment does not state who or what such a registration would be with, or what would constitute a recognised and appropriate level of qualification.

Amendment 534 adds to the list of codes of practice that the Secretary of State may issue. The addition is a code of practice on the acceptable forms of proof of identity when a person makes a first declaration. Clause 6(3) of the Bill already provides a regulation-making power that sets out the acceptable forms of proof of identity. Amendment 534 would give the Secretary of State a power to make codes of practice about how someone can ensure they are compliant with the requirements set out under clause 6(3). The amendment has little practical effect, because clause 30(1)(e) already provides a wide power for issuing codes of practice, providing that the Secretary of State may issue codes of practice on

“such other matters relating to the operation of this Act as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

Amendment 523 allows the Secretary of State to issue further codes of practice at his discretion, should they not be covered by the preceding subsection (1) of this clause. The Bill’s promoter has said she is minded to support amendment 447, and the hon. Member for East Wiltshire asks whether, if amendment 447 is incorporated into the Bill, that renders amendment 523 unnecessary or surplus to requirements. I am not entirely sure, so I will quickly check while the Bill’s promoter is making her remarks and come back to him immediately.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thought we were going to get a full house with this group, but let us have a look. I am minded to support amendment 447, as I have previously said. I will wait to hear from the Minister the impact that that will have on amendment 523.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I can confirm that amendment 523 is a helpful amendment as 447 is incorporated, so that is all fine—we are good with that.

[Kim Leadbeater]

That is very helpful indeed. In that case I am very pleased to support amendment 523 in the name of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire as well. I am also minded to support amendment 394 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, which I think is very sensible, like his other amendments that I have supported. I am not sure that amendment 534 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich is entirely necessary, but I fully understand the sentiment and therefore I am minded to support that amendment as well.

That brings me on to the final amendment, 448. I wanted to support this amendment, but I have taken on board the Minister’s comments on the lack of clarity about what it means to be registered and qualified. As such, I cannot support that amendment this evening, but I think we could look at coming up with something on Report that would achieve the objective that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central intended.

Amendment 447 agreed to.

Amendment made: 394, in clause 30, page 18, line 24, at end insert—

“(ba) the provision of information and support to persons with learning disabilities who are eligible to request assistance to end their own life under this Act, including the role of advocates for such persons;”—(Daniel Francis.)

Amendment made: 416, in clause 30, page 18, line 25, leave out paragraph (c).—(Jack Abbott.)

This amendment is linked to Amendment 417.

Amendment made: 430, in clause 30, page 18, line 30, at end insert—

“(da) responding to unexpected complications that arise in relation to the administration of the approved substance under section 18, including when the procedure fails;”.—(Daniel Francis.)

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

Amendment 517 relates to new clause 25, which I will come to next. The amendment would make provision for the Secretary of State to issue a code of practice regarding arrangements for a qualifying person to receive the support of an independent advocate, as set out under new clause 25. The new clause would require the Secretary of State to make regulations about the appointment of independent advocates.

The role of the independent advocate would be to provide support and advocacy to a qualifying person seeking to understand options around end-of-life care, including the possibility of requesting access to assisted dying. A qualifying person is defined in the new clause as someone who has a learning disability, a mental disorder as defined under the Mental Health Act 1983, or autism; or who might experience substantial difficulty in understanding the processes or communicating their views, wishes or feelings; or who meets criteria specified by the Secretary of State in regulations.

Although the new clause would require the Secretary of State to make regulations about the appointment of independent advocates, there is discretion as to what those regulations should include. The new clause sets out a non-exhaustive list of the things that the regulations may provide. The effect of this is that the new clause leaves open who would be obliged to ensure that an independent advocate is present and the precise nature of the obligations around their appointment. It is also unclear how a person would be determined to be a qualifying person, as the definition is quite broad and encompasses a wide range of people with varying support and advocacy needs.

Finally, although the new clause would enable provisions to be made about payments of independent advocates, it is not clear who would make these payments or how they would be funded.

I hope those observations were helpful to the Committee.

[Kim Leadbeater]

My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has made a powerful and passionate case for the provision of independent advocates, and, as always, has done an outstanding job of advocating for people with disabilities, including learning disabilities, mental disorders and autism, as she has done throughout this entire process.

It is essential that anybody considering the choice at the end of life made possible by this Bill should fully understand the nature and consequences of any decision they may make. These amendments have made me reflect on comments—I think made by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire a few weeks ago—about the purpose of the Bill. He proposed that the Bill is either about choice and autonomy or it is about safeguards. Actually, this group presents very clear evidence that it is and must be about both, and I hope he can support the amendments.

I take on board the Minister’s comments. I heard an element of caution from him, and I am happy to work with the Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge if there are any further requirements prior to Report stage, but I am very happy to support the amendment and the new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger]

The point I am making is that we are suggesting that some future Secretary of State, in a different Government of which we know nothing, might decide to issue codes of practice that will determine how this process is delivered, but I will leave that point.

We must address the weak status of these codes of practice. I regret that they are being left in this weak form. At a minimum level, we should require that they are properly complied with. This cannot be remedied after the Bill has passed. No matter how strong the language in the codes of practice, that language cannot override or change the nature of a statutory duty. Any enhanced duty has to come from a source external to the document being considered itself—namely, the statute. I ask the hon. Member for Spen Valley, why not insist that practitioners comply with the relevant provisions of the code?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I will speak on amendment 524, in the name of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire. As the Bill stands, a person is required to “have regard to” any codes of practice issued by the Secretary of State when performing a function under the Bill. Amendment 524 would mean that individuals are instead required to “comply with” the codes of practice issued. That could limit someone to doing only what is specified in the code, rather than allowing them to exercise their professional discretion to perform the function in the most appropriate way, having given regard to the code. It is also unclear from the amendment who would monitor or enforce compliance with the codes. Codes of practice are normally detailed practical guidance on how to comply with legal obligations, and are generally not legally binding.

I hope those observations are helpful to the Committee.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I understand the sentiment behind the amendment, but as the Minister said, codes of practice serve a particular purpose. Everyone has to comply with and abide by the law, but codes of practice are there to assist in the exercise of a person’s professional judgment. I worry about losing the ability for professionally trained and regulated people to use their professional discretion and have the flexibility they need to do their jobs well, if we accepted this amendment.

I think the hon. Member for East Wiltshire answered his own question in his description of what a code of practice does. Although the amendment comes from a good place, I cannot support it. We need to have flexibility, and trust in our professionals to do their job.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Francis]

These amendments refer to the oral evidence we received from Mencap. They would add provisions to ensure those consulted in the preparation of the chief medical officer’s guidance include persons with learning disabilities. I commend the amendments to the Committee.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Clause 31(2) provides that, before preparing guidance under the clause, the relevant CMO must consult such persons as they consider appropriate. Amendment 395 would add a duty for the CMO to consult persons with learning disabilities before preparing such guidance. That may call into question why other specific groups are not expressly listed.

Amendment 396 would include persons with learning disabilities as an additional category of people to which the CMOs must have regard in relation to preparing practical and accessible information, advice and guidance under clause 31. The effect would be to include persons with learning disabilities as a specific category of people in addition to the listed categories. This could imply that those with learning disabilities would not already be included in one of the categories already listed, namely

“persons requesting or considering requesting assistance to end their own lives…next of kin and families of such persons”

and “the general public.”

Clause 31 sets out a duty on the chief medical officers for England and Wales to publish public-facing guidance relating to the operation of the legislation. It has rightly been a matter for the Committee to determine amendments to the clause, and the Government will respect the will of Parliament. As Members will know, the Government have been working with the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, on amendments to ensure that, if passed, the legislation will be legally robust and workable.

On this clause, we intend to support the development of further such technical amendments on Report. Where amendments are required to clarify the obligations in relation to the preparation of guidance, we will work with the promoter to ensure that MPs receive good notice to give them adequate time for consideration. I hope those observations were helpful for the Committee.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I briefly show my support for these amendments that have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford.

Amendment 395 agreed to.

Amendment made: 396, in clause 31, page 19, line 14, at end insert—

“(ba) persons with learning disabilities;”—(Daniel Francis.)

Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Bambos Charalambous.)

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-third sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Roger. We have been working with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley on these amendments, and changes have been mutually agreed by her and the Government. The amendments aim to ensure that the Bill, if passed, is legally and operationally workable. I offer a technical and factual explanation and rationale for the amendments.

Amendments 469 and 472 are supplementary to amendment 208, which provides that the form of the statement made by the co-ordinating doctor, in relation to the second declaration, is to be set out in regulations. Amendment 472 sets out the information that the regulations must require the statement to include, as well as some additional declarations by the co-ordinating doctor.

Amendment 470 is supplementary to amendment 207, which provides that the form of a second declaration is to be set out in regulations. Amendment 470 sets out the information that the regulations must require the second declaration to include, as well as some additional declarations by the person. That applies to regulations made under clause 13(3)(a). I hope that was useful for the Committee.

Amendment 469 agreed to.

Amendments made: 372, in clause 13, page 9, line 12, leave out from third “the” to end of line 13 and insert

“certificate of eligibility was granted,”.

This amendment is consequential on NC21.

Amendment 373, in clause 13, page 9, line 17, leave out “declaration was made” and insert “certificate was granted”.—(Kim Leadbeater.)

This amendment is consequential on NC21.

[Sarah Olney]

I beg to move amendment 457, in clause 13, page 9, line 17, after “made,” insert

“and have not voluntarily stopped eating and drinking”.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Kim Leadbeater]

I am going to finish, if I may.

We need to be really careful that we take a person-centred approach, as happens now. Doctors, medical practitioners and healthcare professionals quite rightly take a holistic patient-centred approach. That approach will be further enhanced by the robust training the Bill incorporates, and by adding the extra layers of safeguards and protection. Really importantly, it would open up conversations about death and dying.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford.

As previously stated, my role, and that of the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green, is not to give a Government view, given that the Government remain neutral on the Bill, but to outline the legal and practical impacts of amendments tabled.

The amendments are intended to add a new step in the process set out in the Bill, requiring consultation with a palliative care specialist. The purpose of amendment 281 is to require a person to have met a palliative care specialist before completing the required steps and assessments to end their life. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the person has understood the full range of end of life options available to them. Our assessment suggests that the present drafting, adding a subsection to clause 1(2), would not achieve that effect without further amendments to other clauses in the Bill. The amendment would increase demand on palliative care specialists and, should Members decide to amend the Bill in this way, we would need to work with the NHS and other provider organisations to assess how to operationalise it.

Amendments 298 and 299 would require the co-ordinating doctor to have received confirmation that the person seeking an assisted death has had a consultation with a specialist in palliative medicine about palliative care options before they are able to make a first statement under clause 7(3)(a). That would mean that a co-ordinating doctor would not be able to make a statement following a first assessment, and therefore refer a person to the independent doctor for a second assessment, unless the person had had a consultation about palliative care options with a palliative care specialist. As with previous amendments, the amendment would increase demand for palliative care specialists, and we would need to work with the NHS and other provider organisations to assess how to operationalise it, should hon. Members decide to pass amendments in that area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

I just have some concluding remarks. None of the amendments was voted for. I feel that in the clause 1 stand part debate, huge opportunities have been missed. I have talked a lot, throughout the debates, about the issues of people from ethnic minority communities. Opportunities were missed to safeguard disabled people and people from ethnic minority backgrounds.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich made a point about amendments being clear, and about ambiguity. The truth is that if the amendments were supported in principle, they could have been tidied up by Government. There are some good amendments that could have been clarified by the Government. In principle, they were good options. I struggle with the whole narrative throughout the debate on clause 1: “Yes, we accept the principle, but we are not going to do it because it is ambiguous or the wording is incorrect.” There is lots of wording that we will debate throughout the rest of the Bill that is not quite clear, and that is the whole point of going through this exercise. Going forward, I encourage us, as the hon. Member for Reigate did before me, to do as we have been doing, with sincerity, in trying to make this Bill the best in the world it can be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley intends.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I will make some brief remarks on the legal and practical effect of clause 1, as amended, to assist hon. Members in making their own assessment. Clause 1 sets out the eligibility criteria that a person must meet in order to request to be provided with lawful assistance to end their own life under the provisions of this Bill. A person must be terminally ill; this term is defined in more detail in clause 2.

Clause 1(1) sets out a further four requirements, which require that a person must also have the necessary capacity to make the decision, which is to be read in accordance with the Mental Capacity Act 2005; be aged 18 or over; be ordinarily resident in England and Wales and have been resident for at least 12 months; and be registered as a patient with a GP practice in England or Wales. This clause provides that, in particular, clauses 5 to 22 of the Bill require steps to be taken to establish that the person has a clear, settled and informed wish to end their own life and has made the decision that they wish to end their own life voluntarily and has not been coerced or pressured by any other person in making that decision.

The clause, as amended by the insertion of new subsection (3), will ensure that the service can be accessed only by an individual ordinarily resident in England and Wales. That amendment, amendment 180, has been drafted to give effect to the policy intent of my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley for this legislation: that it is to apply only to those in England or Wales and is not to be accessed via medical tourism.

As I have said, the Government remain neutral on the substantive policy questions relevant to how the law in this area would be changed. The clause is a matter for the Committee and Parliament to consider, but the Government’s assessment is that the clause, as amended, is workable, effective and enforceable.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Terminal illness

[Danny Kruger]

I beg to move amendment 399, in clause 2, page 1, line 22, leave out “, disease or medical condition” and insert “or disease”.

This amendment ensures that a terminal illness under the Bill can only be an illness or a disease and not a medical condition.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Naz Shah]

I thank my hon. Friend, but I feel that the point is being missed. It is true that there is no framework, but for somebody to get to this point in the first instance they need to have a terminal illness. There is a framework around domestic violence, and domestic violence laws exist for everybody. Frameworks already exist for women fleeing domestic violence, and there is no shortage of attempts to try to get those legal frameworks right across society. That is why we had the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, why we have committed to halving violence against women and girls, and why the Prime Minister made a personal commitment in that regard—and rightly so.

There has already been a test case in which a judge said that medics have an obligation in this context. An hon. Member referred yesterday to assisted dying being a treatment, although I disagree, and we had that conversation later.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

That was a misunderstanding; I was talking about “treatment” as a legal term.

[Naz Shah]

No, I was talking about another hon. Member, not the Minister. We already have laws to protect people from domestic violence, but that does not mean that they necessarily access them.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms McVey. This group of amendments focuses on the motivations of an individual who wishes to seek assisted dying services. As before, I will limit my remarks to observations about the legal and operational impact that these changes would have.

Amendments 94 to 104 would introduce an additional safeguarding requirement that would require that a person who wishes to be provided with lawful assistance to voluntarily end their own life must be acting for their own sake, not for the benefit of others. These amendments would introduce that new requirement into all the relevant parts of the Bill where a doctor or court or panel must, under the current provisions in the Bill, make an assessment as to whether the person has capacity, a clear and settled wish and is making the declaration voluntarily. These relevant points include, for example, the assessment of the first doctor—the co-ordinating doctor—and that of the second doctor—the independent doctor. The amendments would provide that declarations set out in the schedules are, in consequence, also amended to reflect this new requirement.

With respect to the impact of introducing additional or overlapping terminology alongside the existing terms “coerced or pressured” currently in clause 1 of the Bill, such as “acting for their own sake”, there is a risk that this would cause uncertainty about their interpretation and application by the assessing doctors and the courts. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Sarah Sackman), has articulated the Government’s position in her previous contributions.

Amendments 235 to 245 are intended to refine the eligibility criteria of a person seeking assistance to end their life so as to ensure that the primary motivation of that person is to avoid physical pain. Consequential amendments are included to reflect that throughout the entirety of the Bill. If this refinement were to form part of the Bill, amendment 235 could exclude those who are suffering with a terminal illness for which physical pain is not a specific symptom. The likely effect would therefore be to limit those who are eligible to access assisted dying under this legislation to terminally ill persons with conditions that are likely to cause only physical pain. In addition to the generic risk of additional overlapping terminology causing uncertainty, the inclusion of these amendments would generate specific uncertainty, as it may be difficult to distinguish physical pain from other pain. It is also not clear whether the person needs to be in pain all the time or some of the time. As I said earlier, the Government have taken a neutral position on the substantive policy questions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will just take us back to the first principles. This is not a Government Bill; it is the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, who came top of the ballot for private Members’ Bills. She chose to bring forward this piece of legislation. The Government had absolutely no role whatsoever in drafting the legislation. The Prime Minister then made it clear that the Government will remain neutral in their position on the Bill. However, it is the constitutional duty of the Government to ensure that every Bill that passes through Parliament and secures Royal Assent is workable, deliverable, viable and coherent in terms of the statute.

How does that play into this Bill Committee? Members of the Committee who are not Ministers are here to debate the philosophical, moral, ethical and, in some cases, legal and perhaps clinical aspects of the Bill. Members of the Committee who are Ministers—namely myself and the Justice Minister, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green—are here to provide observations on the Bill with regard to its legal, practical, technical and operational impact, to ensure that we are doing our constitutional duty to deliver the objectives I just outlined to my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West.

The answer to the question from my hon. Friend is that when my hon. and learned Friend the Justice Minister and I speak, we focus our remarks exclusively on the legal, practical, technical and operational considerations of the Bill. I assume that the Committee finds it useful to know what the Government’s position is on those matters. We do not opine on the philosophical, ethical or moral considerations that are at the heart of the Bill.

[Naz Shah]

I thank the Minister greatly for his explanation. I am trying to separate the two points. I appreciate the role of both Ministers in providing the Committee with that guidance, as many of us are new to the process. What I am trying to understand, with respect to the amendment from the right hon. Member for Braintree, which I just talked about, is that the Government have asserted a view that the language included would create uncertainty.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I am not going to take any more interventions. I will move on to Kim Leadbeater unless the Minister has not finished.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I cannot really comment, because I did not get the specific question that my hon. Friend asked.

[Kim Leadbeater]

Returning to the amendments before us, I will try to keep my comments brief, as we have had a thorough debate this afternoon. On amendments 95 to 104, I have spoken to the right hon. Member for Braintree and I know that these amendments seek to stimulate discussion, and I am very pleased that they have done that this afternoon. I also know that they come from a good place.

I have already discussed the additional safeguards around training that would be added to the Bill through new clause 8, which states that the Secretary of State must consult

“persons appearing to…have expertise in matters relating to whether persons have been coerced”.

That would consolidate the existing measures in the Bill and, I hope, relate to the concerns expressed in the amendment to some degree.

More broadly, the reasons that someone might choose an assisted death may well include sparing those they love the pain of seeing them suffer, as we have heard this afternoon. That is certainly something that members of my family and people I have spoken to say would matter to them. That should not prevent the provision of assistance. It is surely for that person to decide.

During oral evidence, we heard powerful testimony from Liz Reed about her brother Rob, who had an assisted death in Queensland, Australia. Rob was 39 years old and had a young family when he was diagnosed with stage 4 terminal lung cancer. He was fit, young and healthy, and did not smoke. As well as taking back control at the end of his life, one of his main reasons for choosing an assisted death was so that his young family could remember him as the man and the dad he was. He was not afraid of death, but he was afraid of dying in an undignified and painful way; he was afraid of not getting to say goodbye to his wife and children, or them having to find him after his having had a massive heart attack. Surely we should not decide that that is not acceptable and understandable. It is a perfectly understandable reason for choosing an assisted death.

Liz told us that Rob

“was able to change his mind, which he did, in terms of dates and when it would happen. His views and the views of his family were also taken into account and, through the process, he was treated like a person with autonomy whose choices were being respected.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 254, Q328.]

If relatives were implicitly or explicitly coercing or pressuring someone, that would of course be very different—and that is covered by the Bill—but to prevent someone from wanting to consider their loved ones in their final weeks and months of life does not seem at all reasonable to me.

I have talked about training, which is important and feeds into the debate about the assessment of coercion and pressure—here, I refer again to my new clause 8. As we heard during the oral evidence, who is involved in that training is important. We heard from the Association of Palliative Care Social Workers. Its position statement on assisted dying states:

“As social workers we bring a distinctive perspective and skill set. Our focus is on helping people to get practical needs met; to enable them and their families cope with the impact of serious illness and dying and to plan ahead”.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighth sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Kim Leadbeater]

Absolutely, Ms McVey—thank you for allowing me to make some introductory comments.

Amendments 178 to 180, 182 and 193 simply clarify that only persons in England and Wales may be provided with assistance in accordance with the Act, and only medical practitioners in England and Wales can carry out the required roles at each stage of the process. Hopefully, this is a nice straightforward one to get us started.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley for her introductory comments. The Government will continue to remain neutral on the Bill and do not hold a position on assisted dying. I want to make it clear that I, along with the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green, are speaking in Committee not as Members of Parliament, but as Government Ministers responsible for ensuring that the Bill, if passed, is effective, legally robust and workable.

To that end, we have been working closely with the hon. Member for Spen Valley and, where changes have been mutually agreed on by herself and the Government, we will offer a technical, factual explanation for the amendments. Therefore, I will not be offering up a Government view on the merits of any proposed changes put forward by other Members, but I will make brief remarks on an amendment’s legal and practical impact to assist Members in undertaking line-by-line scrutiny.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

May I ask how what the Minister has just said interacts with voting? He set out clearly his involvement in the Committee, so how does that impact any votes that he will take part in during it?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I am on the Committee as a Member of Parliament and I vote as such. When I speak on the Committee, I speak as a Government Minister in order to provide factual and technical explanations. As the Bill is a matter of conscience, I will be voting with my conscience on all the amendments as they come forward.

The amendments that we are now debating have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley in consultation with the Government. They relate to the location of the person seeking assistance under the Bill and are designed to ensure that the service can only be accessed by an individual present in England and Wales, with a view to preventing medical tourism.

I will take the amendments in turn. Amendments 178 and 193 would ensure that only a terminally ill person in England or Wales may be provided with assistance in accordance with the Bill. Further to that, a requirement is placed on the co-ordinating doctor to ascertain whether, in their opinion, the person who made the first declaration is in England and Wales as part of their first assessment. Amendment 179 would limit the assistance that may be provided in accordance with the Bill to assistance in England or Wales only. Amendment 180 would require the steps taken under clauses 5, 7, 8 and 13 that relate to both declarations and both doctors’ assessments to be taken by persons in England or Wales.

Amendment 182 would limit the provision of clause 4(3), where a person indicates to a registered medical practitioner their wish to seek assistance to end their own life, to cases where the person is physically present in England or Wales. It would prevent people who are outside of England or Wales from accessing assistance in accordance with the Act—for example, by online consultations from abroad.

As I said earlier, the Government will continue to remain neutral on the substantive policy questions relevant to how the law in this area could be changed. That is, as I have made clear, a matter for the Committee and for Parliament as a whole. However, I hope that these observations are helpful to Members in considering the Bill and the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley.

Amendment 178 agreed to.

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

I beg to move amendment 34, in clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out “capacity” and insert “ability”.

This replaces the concept of capacity based on the Mental Capacity Act and replaces it with a new concept of ability which is defined in NC1.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Ninth sitting)

Stephen Kinnock Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Juliet Campbell]

I thank the Committee for allowing me to reiterate the importance of a stand-alone approach. The use of the Mental Capacity Act must be questioned, as the Act was never intended to legislate for assisted dying. Much of what has been said in favour of using the Mental Capacity Act has been about it being tried and tested, so people understand it and to use anything else would make life complicated for professionals who use it as part of their day-to-day activities in assessing capacity.

On the surface, those reasons do seem reasonable and make the Mental Capacity Act an easy option. If, however, the Act does not pass the threshold of meeting everyone’s needs, convenience should not be the deciding factor. Convenience cannot be considered a sufficient reason to use the Mental Capacity Act, as it is a fundamental element of the Bill. The Bill is in itself enough reason to have an alternative or stand-alone approach to determine an individual’s eligibility to be considered for an assisted death.

Capacity is a complicated issue and cannot be oversimplified for convenience. The MCA may be fit for its current purpose, but it is not fit for the purpose of the assisted dying Bill. I have spent more than 20 years working on the equalities agenda, and one of the things that I have learned—this has been a consistent shortfall—is that we try to address new challenges with old solutions, rather than trying to meet the needs of the people we intend to serve. That is the reason why I will be supporting the amendment.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Roger. As was noted earlier, the Government remain neutral. My role here is not to offer a Government view on the merits of the amendments but to provide a factual explanation of their technical and practical effect, to assist the Committee in its scrutiny. This group of amendments focuses on the concept of mental capacity. As drafted, the Bill, in clause 3, states that

“references to a person having capacity are to be read in accordance with the Mental Capacity Act 2005”,

with sections 1 to 3 of that Act establishing the principles and criteria for assessing a person’s capacity to make decisions. New clause 1, which would replace clause 3, and amendments 34 to 47, would collectively introduce the concept of an individual having the ability to make the decision to request assistance to end their life. A person’s ability would be determined by whether they could

“fully understand, use and weigh the relevant information in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State”.

That is intended to replace the term “capacity”, used in the Mental Capacity Act 2005, which provides a very specific definition of what it means to lack capacity in relation to a particular decision. A lack of capacity under this framework means that a person must be unable to understand, use and weigh information relevant to the decision, and that that must be directly caused by

“an impairment of, or a disturbance in the functioning of, the mind or brain.”

The “ability” proposal, as drafted, deals only with the use and weight of information.

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

To go back to the point I made this morning—I am happy to stand corrected, but nobody has disputed it—two issues continue to concern me in relation to the Mental Capacity Act and the code of conduct. The first is that the doctor would have a choice, under chapter 5 of the guidance, as to whether it is practical and appropriate to consult other people—with regard to learning disability, for instance.

Also, we have not discussed principle 2 in chapter 2, which says that the doctor has to do everything practicable to try to help the person to make the decision for themselves, before concluding that they do not have the capacity to do so. The principal concern for some Members remains those issues in relation to the Mental Capacity Act, which have not been considered for this scenario. I would like the Minister to address them and the fact that that Act, which was written 20 years ago, was not written for this scenario.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The fundamental position of the Government is that the Mental Capacity Act as it stands is a known quantity. It provides the legal base for a whole range of measures and interventions, and the Government’s view is that it would be an adequate legal base to operationalise the Bill should it receive Royal Assent. Our position on it goes no further than that; it is simply a matter of fact that there is a piece of legislation that is a known quantity.

[Naz Shah]

The Minister makes an important point. I just want to understand something. He speaks on behalf of the Government and says that the Mental Capacity Act is an adequate legal base as it stands. Perhaps the issue is just that I am new to the process—I am happy to be guided, Sir Roger—but we have not had an impact assessment. Normally, Bills do have impact assessments beforehand and the Government go out to consult; they have a consultation process. None of that has happened because the Bill is a private Member’s Bill. I am just trying to understand: is what has been said still true? How do the Government come to that conclusion without all those robust mechanisms that would normally go before a Government Bill?

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[Stephen Kinnock]

As I set out from the Dispatch Box when we had the money resolution, the Government will publish an impact assessment before Report. Given that this is a highly dynamic Bill, with a whole range of amendments having been tabled, and that it is not really possible to publish an impact assessment on the basis of a Bill that has not cleared a Bill Committee, there is a simple point of sequencing. That is why we are going to publish the impact assessment after the Bill Committee has completed.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I was glad to hear what the Minister said about the Government accepting the Mental Capacity Act as a basis. We should remember that in 2005, that Act widened the availability of autonomy for individuals. We are discussing that here: how to enable autonomy for individuals. I also really welcome what the hon. Member for Bradford West said about impact assessments. Can the Minister commit now to an impact assessment specifically for Wales? The context of health and social care there is very different from that in England.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the right hon. Member for her intervention. We have had a conversation about the need to ensure that the impact assessment has a clear and specific focus on the impact in Wales. I can absolutely assure her that either there will be a separate impact assessment for Wales, or we will ensure that the impact assessment that we produce is absolutely clear in terms of the impact that it will have in Wales; it will be one of those two.

Personally, I am agnostic as to which of those it is. It is simply a question of what works best given the highly integrated nature of the conversation because the criminal justice aspects of it are a reserved competence, while health and care are a devolved competence. What is the best way to present that—having a single document or two separate documents? I am not entirely clear, but I have undertaken to check the matter with officials. I will get back to the right hon. Lady as soon as possible on that point.

[Danny Kruger]

I am very puzzled, on two grounds. The first is about the impact assessment. I simply do not understand the argument that the Government have to wait until the end of the Committee stage before they can have a view on the Bill and present it for Report. The fact is that the Bill could change again on Report, and the impact assessment would have to be updated further. Why on earth do we not have an impact assessment, which could advise the members of the Committee and the Government themselves on the appropriateness of the measures?

That brings me to my second point of confusion: I simply do not understand what on earth the Minister means when he says that he is neutral about the clauses. He has just given the view, from his position, that he objects to the amendment and that he supports the use of the Mental Capacity Act. He is basing his view— I had understood that, as a neutral member of the Committee, he was not going to express one—on something. What is he basing it on? Secondly, how can he express a view when he is supposed to be neutral?

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[Stephen Kinnock]

The Government choose when to bring forward an impact assessment based on the passage of the Bill through the House. We have had reports today about a very substantial amendment to clause 12 that may well be brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, for example. It is not possible for the Government to conduct and publish an impact assessment when quite significant changes are being made.

I also gently point out to the hon. Member for East Wiltshire that this is not a Government Bill; it is a private Member’s Bill. It is also worth noting that it is unprecedented, as far as I know, to have oral evidence sessions for a private Member’s Bill, so we are already on relatively uncharted territory. It is also relatively uncharted territory to have, on a Bill Committee, Ministers who are neutral because the position of the Government is neutral. But that reflects the fact that this is indeed uncharted territory, so that is where we stand.

The hon. Gentleman made a point about our own positions on the subject; I speak also for the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green. It is a matter of public record that I supported the Bill on Second Reading. It is also the case that we vote, as members of the Committee, on the basis of our conscience because this is a matter of conscience; that is why the Government are neutral on it. There is no whipping from the usual channels.

At the same time, we are articulating the position of the Government. The hon. Member for East Wiltshire asked how we come to that position. It is through the usual process of engaging with officials and experts in the field, and through taking into account all the considerations that the Government need to take into account for the operationalisation of the Bill. The Government then come to a view, and that is the view that I express when I am on the Committee.

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

The Minister says that the Government have made their own choice about when to do the impact assessment on the Bill. Does he not accept that it would have made sense to have done it before the Committee stage? Then, any evidence that the assessment threw up could have given rise to amendments tabled during the Committee stage—that would have made it an appropriate time to have done the impact assessment. The impact assessment could then always have been updated depending on how the Bill was then amended during Committee.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The hon. Member makes an interesting point. I simply reiterate that this is a very dynamic Bill Committee; I believe that 362 amendments have been tabled. Given the Government’s focus on establishing the Bill’s implementability, the coherence of the statute, the legal dimensions and the complexity of what we are dealing with, we took the position that it was better to wait for the Bill to clear Committee stage before producing an impact assessment. To do otherwise could have involved a large amount of second-guessing based on radical changes that might well have come out of the Bill Committee. I reiterate the logic of that sequencing.

On the point about the established legal framework, which clinicians have been applying since 2007, “capacity” would still be used for other decisions about care and treatment.

I turn to amendment 202, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley on the advice of the Government. It ensures that the assessment of “capacity” is utilised by the assessing doctor, and corrects a typographical error in clause 9 to ensure that an assessment of capacity will apply consistently throughout the Bill. As I said earlier, how and whether the law on assisted dying should change is a matter for this Committee and for Parliament as a whole. However, I hope that these observations are helpful to the Committee when considering potential changes put forward.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I will try to keep my comments brief. It is excellent that we have had such a thorough debate on this particular issue, but I am also very conscious of time.

I will do the quick and easy bit first. As the Minister has just said, amendment 202 is to correct a typographical error in the initial drafting of the Bill—despite the high level of expertise involved in the initial drafting of the Bill, that one managed to sneak through. The amendment would simply change the word “capability” to “capacity”, to be consistent with the rest of the Bill.

I now come to amendments 34 to 47 and new clause 1. As we have discussed, those would replace the concept of “capacity”, which is based on the Mental Capacity Act, with a new concept of “ability”. I think that suggestion is coming from a good place and is made with good intention by the hon. Member for Richmond Park; I thank her for her positive engagement with the Bill. However, based on the oral evidence that we received, particularly from the chief medical officer and many other experts, the suggestion would seem unnecessary given that we already have—as has been discussed at length this afternoon—a very well established piece of legislation that is effective in this regard.

The primary purpose of the Mental Capacity Act is to promote and safeguard decision making within a legal framework. As the CMO and other colleagues have said, issues around mental capacity

“are dealt with every day, in every hospital up and down the country; every doctor and nurse above a certain level of seniority should be able to do that normally.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 31, Q3.]

That view was supported by Yogi Amin, an expert in Court of Protection work, human rights and civil liberties, who told us during the oral evidence sessions:

“It is well understood how capacity assessments are done, and it is ingrained”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 29 January 2025; c. 140, Q176.]

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[The Chair]

Happily, that is not a matter for the Chair. However, let me make it clear that the two Ministers present are members of the Committee in their own right as Members of Parliament and are therefore permitted to speak and vote, as are all other Committee members. Were any Minister to feel that there was a conflict between their personal view and the view that the Government wish to express, my understanding is that that would be a matter for discussion between that Minister and the Government. More than that I am afraid I cannot offer.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Further to that point of order, Sir Roger. I thank the hon. Member for East Wiltshire for his question. Let us take this back to first principles.

This is a private Member’s Bill. A Bill Committee had to be formed. The Committee was formed in discussions between the Member sponsoring the Bill, the Whips and the House authorities. The principle of formulating the Committee was based in large part on the steer given by the debate and the vote on Second Reading, which delivered a majority of 55 in the House. The numerical composition of this Committee was therefore based on that majority of 55, broadly speaking. My hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley needed to put together a Committee that reflected that.

The position was also taken that there should be Government Ministers on the Committee who had to speak for the Government with neutrality. It is with those two factors in mind that the Committee was put together. The two functions that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green and I have reflect the two purposes that were in mind when the Committee was put together.

[The Chair]

Again, that is not a matter for the Chair. Points of order are not matters for debate; they are points of order.

[Stephen Kinnock]

My apologies, Sir Roger. It was just a point of clarification.

[The Chair]

That is all right. Nevertheless, I am minded to refer the matter to the Clerk of the House for his consideration. This is no reflection on either of the hon. Gentlemen, or indeed on the Committee, but there are issues here that I think the Clerk of the House perhaps needs to consider in the broader context.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

The amendments relate to the criteria that individuals would need to meet to request assistance to die under the Bill. All the amendments seek to amend the eligibility criteria in some manner. To reiterate, the Government have no view on the policy questions pertaining to the amendments, and my role here is to offer observations on the legal and practical impact of amendments tabled. The legal impact of these amendments will be the main focus of my remarks.

Amendment 353 seeks to make prisoners ineligible for assisted dying services even if they meet the definition of having a terminal illness. Amendments 354 and 355 are consequential amendments that would make it a requirement for the co-ordinating doctor in the first assessment and the court process to ascertain whether a person seeking assistance to end their own life is a prisoner.

Aside from the right to liberty, article 5 of the European convention on human rights requires that prisoners should have the same rights as those who are not prisoners. The rights engaged by the amendment are article 8 on the right to respect for private and family life and article 14 on the protection from discrimination. Making prisoners ineligible for assisted dying would, on the face of it, lead to a difference in treatment between prisoners and non-prisoners that would need to be objectively and reasonably justified. The justification test requires that the treatment in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

[Naz Shah]

I note that the Minister used the word “treatment” twice, but we are not talking about a treatment; we are talking about assisted death. I think someone mentioned earlier that it is a treatment, but it is not a treatment, is it? I would welcome his clarification on that.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. My understanding is that it is termed as a treatment under the law. The Government do not take a view on the semantics of the word; my understanding is that that is how it is classified under the law.

[Sarah Olney]

It is really important that we establish whether this will be defined as a treatment or indeed as something quite distinct in law. My understanding is that the word “treatment” should never apply to assisted dying. I would be grateful for the Minister’s clarification.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I apologise; I think I misunderstood the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West, so my comments were not clear. I meant the treatment of this matter under the law. As I said, the justification test requires that the treatment in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. That means the way in which the matter is treated under the law. That is what I meant; I think we got our wires crossed.

Finally, let me address amendments 356, 357 and 358, whose purpose is to exclude those who are homeless within the meaning of section 175 of the Housing Act 1996 from the definition of a “terminally ill person”. The effect of amendment 356 would be to amend the definition of a “terminally ill person”, as set out in clause 1 of the Bill, to expressly exclude a person who, notwithstanding that they met all the other requirements set out in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1), was homeless within the meaning of section 175 of the Housing Act 1996.

Amendments 357 and 358 seek to make consequential amendments to clause 7 on the first doctor’s assessment and clause 12 on court approval. These amendments would require the co-ordinating doctor and the court to be satisfied that, in their opinion, the person was not homeless within the meaning of section 175 of the Housing Act 1996 before making their statement or declaration to allow the person to proceed to the next stage of the assisted dying process.

Article 14 states that the rights set out in the ECHR should be secured for everyone without discrimination on any ground. This amendment engages article 8 on the right to respect for private and family life. Making those who are homeless ineligible for assisted dying would lead to a difference in treatment that will need to be objectively and reasonably justified. The justification test requires that the treatment in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

I hope these observations may be helpful to Members in considering these amendments and making a determination about who should be eligible for accessing assisted dying services, should the Bill pass.

[Danny Kruger]

What an interesting debate—I am grateful to all hon. Members who participated.

I am interested in what the Minister was saying about the ECHR. Notwithstanding my general point about the sovereignty of Parliament, when Lord Sumption gave evidence to the Committee two weeks ago, he stressed the wide margin of appreciation given to member states on the ECHR. Does the Minister think that that will apply in this case to ensure that the British Parliament could vote to exclude these categories of people? If his view is that the Bill could be subject to challenges on discrimination grounds, however, particularly under article 14, I think we will have a lot of problems in applying the Bill. I wonder whether, in due course, we will be able to tease out how the ECHR will intersect with the Bill.

As the Minister says, the crucial point is that any discrimination must be justified on the basis of achieving a legitimate and proportionate aim. My suggestion is that there is an absolutely legitimate aim, and that this is a proportionate means of achieving it.

The debate got quite philosophical, which I found very interesting. I observe that my constituency neighbour, esteemed colleague and great Conservative, my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire, has a vision of our particular political creed that is entirely individualistic. He stresses the absolute importance of individual autonomy, treating everybody as an individual without reference to the context in which they live. I suggest to him, and to the Committee, that our freedom and autonomy depend on our relationships. Our autonomy proceeds from our socialisation. We do not emerge fully formed into the world with all our values and attributes; we acquire them by virtue of the people around us.

The crucial thing about the prison experience is that it disrupts the relationships that can make an individual genuinely free. Homelessness does likewise, and it sets up all sorts of new relationships and new socialisations that can often be very negative.

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[Kit Malthouse]

I understand what the hon. Member for Broxtowe is trying to achieve, but I believe that her amendments are unnecessary. “Demonstrably” is a word that is commonly used in British law, effectively to emphasise that something is important, but also to ensure that something is proven. She will have seen that I have tabled amendments to the Bill to require two declarations to be produced: one by the patient, to say that they have had the conversation about all their options, understand their options and understand what their prognosis is likely to be; and one by the co-ordinating doctor, to say that they have had the conversation and that the patient is in full possession of all the facts they need and understands what has been communicated to them.

My view is that those declarations, as well as the assessment that the doctor has to go through to confirm that the person has a settled wish to do this, are enough to show that the person demonstrably wants to access the service for themselves. I am concerned that amendment 109, like other amendments that we will debate later, would insert into the Bill a series of individual words that will unnecessarily complicate its contemplation by doctors. We heard in evidence that for the Bill to work, it needs to be simple and understandable by everybody who is dealing with it. The more we can minimise the number of words that may be open to interpretation by lawyers —and we certainly have plenty of lawyers in the room— the better. From that point of view, I will oppose the amendment. I understand what the hon. Lady is trying to achieve, but I believe that we have achieved it by different means.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe relate to an individual who seeks to access assisted dying services demonstrating their wish to end their own life and demonstrating their understanding of the process by which that happens. To support the Committee’s deliberations, I will briefly summarise the Government’s analysis of the effect of the amendments.

Amendments 109, 110 and 111 would modify the requirement that the co-ordinating doctor and the independent doctor must undertake an assessment to ascertain whether, in their opinion, the person has a clear, settled and informed wish to end their own life. That would be amended to require the person to have a clear, settled and demonstrably informed wish. The term “demonstrably” would not provide further practical guidance beyond the words already in the Bill and could create uncertainty as to what constitutes being demonstrably informed.

I turn to amendment 112. Clause 9 currently provides that the co-ordinating and independent doctors must explain and discuss a number of matters with the person being assessed. These matters are set out in clause 9(2)(b), (c) and (d). In the interests of time, I will not go through each of those matters, but they include an explanation and discussion of the person’s diagnosis and prognosis, any treatment available and the likely effect of it, and the further steps that must be taken before assistance can lawfully be provided to the person under the Act.

The amendment would create an additional requirement for the co-ordinating and independent doctors. It would require them both to be satisfied that, in their opinion, the person seeking assistance has demonstrated their understanding of the matters that have been discussed under clause 9(2)(b), (c) and (d). The amendment does not specify in any further detail what the doctors would be required to look for to satisfy themselves that a person has demonstrated their understanding. That would be left to their professional judgment, with training, support and guidance, as with other concepts in the Bill. The amendment would leave it to the co-ordinating and independent doctor’s professional judgment to determine what “demonstrated their understanding” looked like in respect of each individual person.

I hope that those observations are helpful to the Committee.

[Danny Kruger]

I have just a few points to make. I very much applaud the hon. Member for Broxtowe for her amendment, which would genuinely—demonstrably, I might say—strengthen the Bill. It does not seem in any sense hostile to the principle or purpose of the Bill; it supports it.

To make a gentle criticism, I think that there is a concern about the lack, throughout the Bill, of a proper trail of documentary evidence following the applicant through the process. For example, the two conversations with the doctor would take place behind closed doors, and no record of their discussion would be made. I do not think that conducive to trust. There is no way to assess whether the safeguards are actually in operation.