Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Rotheram]

I suppose it would depend on the aim of the legislative change. The community that I represent needs a strong message to be sent from this House that the current level of gun crime is unacceptable and that we will give the police every power possible to tackle the blight on our neighbourhoods.

In recent years, we have also seen a rise in the use of firearms, breaching police and public safety, by individuals with track records of domestic violence and mental illness, leading one coroner to call for “root and branch changes” to gun licensing laws. For instance, in the last 12 months, 75% of female gun deaths occurred in domestic incidents, and 53% of female gun deaths in the last five years have involved the use of a legally held weapon, so the improved guidance that the Minister has provided for the police on this issue is to be welcomed.

Such statistics reinforce Labour’s call to ensure that applicants do not have a history of domestic violence or violent conduct as a statutory requirement and not just as a discretionary guideline. While the last Labour Government went a long way to reducing crime and encouraging safer, stronger communities, and introducing tough sentences for gun crimes, too many people still believe the use of guns to be an occupational consequence of their criminal activity. Perhaps the most high-profile incident of gun crime was the appalling murder of 11-year-old schoolboy Rhys Jones in Liverpool in 2007. Sean Mercer was sentenced to life in prison, but what made the incident even more sickening and unpalatable was that Mercer was just 18 years of age. That is why the Government are right to be tough on those who possess prohibited firearms and who sell or transfer them to criminal gangs, which blight neighbourhoods in so many of our major cities.

In my own city, we have tried many innovative approaches to tackling gun crime. Across Merseyside, the police and the local media deserve enormous credit for the campaigns they have undertaken on firearm detection and recovery. This is not just some right-wing tough-on-crime agenda; this is an issue that primarily affects the lives of ordinary people up and down the country, something that Parliament must ensure is reflected in the strength of the laws that govern gun control licensing and in the length of imprisonment. That is why I support clause 100, which seeks to separate the existing offence in the Firearms Act 1968 into two parts, and, in doing so, make it an offence to possess prohibited firearms for sale and transfer, and introduce a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

It is also right for the clause to increase the maximum penalty for the existing offences of manufacture, sale or transfer, or the purchase or acquisition for sale or transfer, of unauthorised firearms from 10 years to life imprisonment. Speaking with Merseyside police and the governors of local prisons, it is becoming increasingly clear that the tactic deployed by gangs is to use the same firearm for different shootings, but then to redistribute the gun to different members of the gang as and when it is “needed”, so to speak. By making the transfer of a firearm a crime punishable by a life sentence, I am positive that this will act as a stronger deterrent, and that those who ignore this change and are later prosecuted will receive severe custodial sentences.

I support clause 101, which seeks to amend sections 50 and 170 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 to increase the maximum penalty for the unlawful importation of firearms, prohibited under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968, from 10 years to life imprisonment. This is particularly important for an area such as Liverpool, with our revitalised docks now shipping record tonnage of trade. Inevitably, there will be those who wish to import illegal firearms into the port. The clause sends a strong message to people involved in the smuggling of weapons into Merseyside that if they are caught, this activity will carry a life sentence.

I support clause 102 in its efforts to allow British Transport police officers to carry firearms without requiring an individual certificate, giving them the same powers as officers of other police forces. Many incidences of gun attacks have taken place on public transport in Britain over the years. It is therefore right that we remove this anomaly and give the transport police the powers they require to combat this specific threat.

I am keen for the laws on firearms to be as tough as possible. New clause 4, tabled by the Labour party, will help the Government to achieve this common aim. New clause 4(4) notes the rising cost to police forces of administering the current firearms licensing regime. According to the Minister, more than 170,000 firearms licences and approximately 620,000 shotgun licences have been issued. The current fee for a firearm or a shotgun licence is only £50 for five years, yet the cost to the administrating force is, according to the Gun Control Network, about £200. Considering that the firearms licence averages out at just £10 a year, it is cheaper to own a gun than it is to own a fishing licence. That is absurd. I cannot see why the taxpayer is being asked to subsidise a large number of gun licences that are being issued to and used by a minority of individuals who wish to use guns for recreational sport. I am not aware of any other licensing system that subsidises to that degree.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

In a rural area such as mine, a number of people have to hold firearms licences because they deal with fallen stock. I assume that that would be a legitimate business expense that they could claim to do their job. Putting the firearms costs at the correct level so that the police do not have to ask other taxpayers for some sort of subsidy would be a logical thing to do, and would not cause problems in rural areas where these firearms are needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

The point that I am making is that it is today; the use of an electronic licensing system is available. Some police forces are piloting this already and this will lead to a much more efficient system. As I say, our ultimate aim is full cost recovery. We are moving towards that, but at the same time making sure that the full cost that is recovered is much less than it was before, not just to save the money but because that will lead to a much better and more efficient system.

[Tessa Munt]

Surely, using e-commerce for firearms licensing will still involve police time in investigating in detail the circumstances of an applicant, including a visit to ensure that the premises can hold firearms in a secure and safe fashion, hidden from general view, and certainly from young people and those who are less able. Surely the standard charge of £190 or £200 cannot be reduced that much.

[Damian Green]

The short answer is that it can. Yes, the police will want to do thorough checks of the premises and so on, but the more that one can reduce the work of processing pieces of paper, which is a lot of what is involved now, with all the attendant inefficiencies and expense for the police, the more the police can do the checks that the hon. Lady and I both want to see happen.

[Tessa Munt]

Can the Minister give me some idea of what the police feel the cost would be if they were to use the e-commerce system? I remind the Minister yet again that the cost of a morning’s shooting—clays—to which my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) referred is not cheap. This is leisure and recreation.

[Damian Green]

The hon. Lady may be right, but the more people use electronic systems, the more savings there are, so it is quite difficult to put an exact figure on it, particularly with a network system, where the costs will be considerably lower than the figures we have been quoting. I can tell from the hon. Lady’s face that I will not necessarily convince her on this matter, but I hope that I have convinced the House. I urge the House to reject the Opposition’s new clause 4, and I am grateful for the general support for the Government’s new clause.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 20 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 4

Firearms’ licensing

‘(1) The Firearms Act 1968 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 28A (Certificates: supplementary) insert—

“28B Assessing public safety

(1) When assessing the threat to public safety under sections 27, 28, 30A, 30B or 30C the Chief Police Officer must ensure that a range of background checks are performed.

(2) Where these checks uncover substantiated evidence of violent conduct, domestic violence, mental illness or drug or alcohol abuse, the presumption is that the Chief Police Officer should refuse the licence application unless exceptional evidence can be brought forward by the applicant as to their suitability to possess a weapon.

(3) When assessing public safety within this section the Chief Police Officer must follow any guidance issued by the Secretary of State.”.

(3) Section 113 of the Firearms Act 1968 (power of Secretary of State to alter fees) is amended as follows.

(4) After subsection (1) insert—

“(1A) Before making an order under this section the Secretary of State must consult with chief police officers to ensure the level of fees collected by the police under sections 32 and 35 are appropriate after considering the costs they incur through the administration and assessment of firearms’ licences made under this Act.”.’.—(Diana Johnson.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My understanding is that that is not the case, and if there is any suggestion that it is the case, we will ask the people who sent the e-mails to resend them. However, I can assure the House that as far as I am aware, every submission is in our hands, is being read, and will be considered properly.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

All of us understand the need to control costs, but I wonder how the Secretary of State will ensure that the creation of a single fixed fee, payable regardless of whether an individual pleads guilty, will not create a direct conflict of interest between the legal representative and his or her client.

[Chris Grayling]

It is clearly in our interests to have a system where we encourage people who are guilty to plead guilty early. That saves money. It is the right thing to do for society. I do not believe or accept that we would be in a position where any qualified lawyer would try to encourage someone to plead guilty when they were not guilty, but of course we are listening to all the responses from the consultation and will bring forward further proposals in due course.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Lady needs to look at the total package of measures brought forward in the autumn statement. We are absolutely mindful of the need to make sure that we support those who find it most difficult in today’s society. That is why 1 million women have been taken out of tax altogether and why we are putting £200 million more into child care for people who are working the shortest hours. Those things have never happened before, and I hope the hon. Lady will applaud and welcome those measures.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

On 5 January last Saturday, BBC Radio 6 Music made history when three consecutive daytime programmes were presented by female DJs for the first time in the BBC’s 45 years of music radio. While less than 20% of the BBC’s music radio programmes were presented by women in 2012, will the Secretary of State please continue her discussions with the BBC to correct that imbalance?

[Maria Miller]

I am wondering how that question relates to tax and benefit changes, but I will of course always encourage the BBC to make sure that women have a full role in the work they do.

Transforming Rehabilitation

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

This is an iterative process. We have a formal consultation period of six weeks. We carried out a consultation on the future of probation last year, and this is an updated consultation. We are going to carry on listening to Members across the House. It will take us a few more months to hone and finalise our final package, and we will look at what works. If the best idea comes in half an hour before we finalise it, then that is fine. I want to make sure that what we have is what works.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

While I recognise that the Secretary of State’s proposals seek to ensure that ex-prisoners make a success of their lives once they are released, I want to return to the matter of those who enter prison with a drug problem. Has he managed to call a complete halt to the practice of retoxifying prisoners prior to release when the Prison Service has taken the trouble to detoxify them at the beginning of their sentences?

[Chris Grayling]

We will do everything we can to do that. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam, is looking very hard at the whole issue of how we manage drugs in prisons and the nature of such rehabilitation. As a result of these reforms, I hope that we will end up not only dealing with the question of retoxification but identifying problems, starting rehab in prison and continuing it post-prison, and getting prisoners off drugs altogether.

Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

On legal aid, there will always be people we might find repellent but for whom we must provide financial support so that they can defend themselves in a fair and open justice system, but that does not mean that our legal aid system should be open to abuse for purposes it is not intended to serve. That is why I have asked my officials to look closely at that area and consider what changes are necessary.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Will the Secretary of State clarify that it will be open to Parliament to decide that non-violent offences tried summarily by the magistrates would comply with the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights and that using the sentencing guidelines and the experience of the judiciary, which is independent of interference and hears the evidence, should be a vehicle for deciding whether or not prisoners are entitled to vote?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend has put forward a further option for the eventual legislation, and I encourage her to take it to the Committee for its consideration.

Firearms Controls

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

That would be a matter for the individual force concerned. It is clearly a matter that the police forces that do the licensing, who are responsible and sensitive about these things, would take serious note of.

The hon. Member for Easington mentioned national control of firearms and the proposal for a national licensing authority. There is a danger that a central authority might lose touch with the sort of local information that the police need. In his report on the Dunblane tragedy, Lord Cullen recommended that licensing functions should remain with the police. Previous suggestions to replace the current police licensing system with a central civilianised licensing authority have been rejected as more costly and less efficient than the present system.

Although the Government are not in favour of a national firearms control board, the Home Office guidance to the police on firearms legislation—the hon. Gentleman mentioned it, and it is indeed long and complex—is being revised and updated to help ensure that licensing procedures are applied consistently across forces. This is an important piece of work, responding directly to the Home Affairs Select Committee’s wish for more consistency. In particular, we will highlight the need to take full account of any incidences of domestic violence when considering applications for the grant or renewal of certificates. The comments that I have heard this evening will be particularly pertinent to that.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that cost is not an issue here? Where people use firearms for recreation, there is no excuse whatever for the process to be subsidised. It is not a matter of cost; it is purely a matter of process—and the costs should be covered by those who require a licence.

[Damian Green]

The ultimate driver, frankly, is safety; that is what underlies the system. On the issue of cost, the Home Office has received a detailed report from ACPO proposing new firearms fees to allow forces to recover the cost of firearms licensing. In considering the proposal, the Government will look both at the quality of service licence holders receive, which is relevant, and will discuss with ACPO the scope for making some of the current processes more efficient and effective. That will take into account the need to manage risk and ensure public protection.

As we indicated in our response to the Select Committee, we do not consider that separate licensing for shotguns and firearms is causing difficulties. Applying a good reason test in the same way for both categories could be problematic. For example, unlike target shooters, shotgun owners do not always belong to clubs that could vouch that they had shot regularly. However, I assure the House that we will keep this issue under review. As I indicated earlier, the local police must satisfy themselves that an applicant for a certificate is fit to be entrusted with a firearm, and will not present a danger to public safety. This is a particularly heavy responsibility and sits right at the heart of the licensing process. Such is the basis of my discussions with ACPO.

One of the most important points raised by the hon. Gentleman was about the need for medical checks on those who have access to firearms. I completely agree that it is important that the police are made aware of medical conditions that affect a person’s suitability to possess firearms. Both the hon. Gentleman and I will therefore—

Oral Answers to Questions

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Djanogly]

The answer is now “Very shortly”.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

A couple of weeks ago, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) visited the high-performing Shepton Mallet prison in my constituency. It has a great team of staff. Will the Under-Secretary or the Secretary of State comment on the fairness of recognising the high numbers of years of service of prison officers with jubilee medals, but not honouring the support staff, who are equally important in the smooth running of this prison, in the same way? Would it not be churlish not to produce some more medals so that they can be given to the support staff as well?

[Mr Speaker]

It might be churlish to interrupt the hon. Lady, so on this occasion I did not, but a blue pencil would be of benefit.

Policing (Devon and Cornwall)

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) on securing the debate. I note that, while my hon. Friend has been here to speak with conviction about the importance of local policing and his own police force, supported by others on our side of the Chamber, no Labour Members are present on either the Front or the Back Benches to take part in this short debate.

My hon. Friend began by referring to the importance of the police service, and the importance of ensuring that its members—both staff and officers, as he made clear—feel appreciated. I strongly agree. It is important that this House constantly repeats that we value the British police service, that it is, indeed, the finest service in the world, and that we appreciate the role police officers play—which we do. It is also true that, as my hon. Friend recognised, we are having to take some difficult decisions to deal with the economic deficit, and policing must play its part. I will come on to that.

My hon. Friend made it clear that the Devon and Cornwall force can be proud of the fact that it is delivering for local people one of the lowest crime rates in the country. It has, in fact, the fourth lowest crime rate of all forces in England and Wales. That is not to say that there are not particular challenges, including the more recent ones to which my hon. Friend referred. It remains true that Devon and Cornwall is a relatively safe place to live, however, and that is thanks to the work of the police force and its partner agencies that help to deliver reductions in crime. It is also true that the force is highly thought of. It has higher satisfaction rates than other forces. Those who work in the Devon and Cornwall force can be proud of that.

Police forces have to play their part in our effort to reduce the deficit, and Devon and Cornwall is no exception. We have had to reduce central funding for police forces by 20% in real terms over the four years of the spending review, but it is important to note that not all funding for the police service comes from that central fund; some of it comes from local sources, and the police authority increased the precept by 2% for this year. Were the precept to continue to increase for the next two years—that will in future be for the elected police and crime commissioner for Devon and Cornwall to decide—the real reduction in resources would be 14%, or about 5.5% in cash terms. That is a challenging reduction, but it is manageable. Even if the precept were not increased, the real reduction would be 16%, so it is not a 20% reduction, as some have claimed. No force in England is suffering that level of reduction in funding, in fact.

Forces must find ways to make that reduction in spending while protecting the quality of their service. The Devon and Cornwall force is determined to do that. It has made a particular commitment to try to protect neighbourhood policing, which is highly valued by the public. That is a visible and available form of policing, in which Devon and Cornwall has to make some progress in comparison with other forces.

My hon. Friend said that police officers feel they are contributing more than their fair share in dealing with the deficit. I do not accept that. Savings have had to be made across the public sector, including in services with which the police work. Police officers will therefore be aware that other services have had to contribute savings. None of these decisions is easy, but the national priority must be to reduce the deficit, which this Government are successfully doing.

It is true that the reduction in spending in Devon and Cornwall will mean a reduction in police numbers. That is not desirable, of course. None of us wants police forces to have to reduce police numbers—albeit from a peak, it must be said. That is a reality, however. Every force is seeking to ensure that those reductions do not impinge on the front-line service.

It is pleasing that the senior leadership of the force are clear that they are determined to maintain that quality of service provision. Indeed, I note that on 12 March, the assistant chief constable of Devon and Cornwall, Paul Netherton, said:

“We have delivered an even better service than before, and we are getting to more jobs faster than before. In terms of service to the public, we have improved, despite having to deal with the consequences of a very challenging budget situation.”

It is important that that service quality be maintained, but it is also important that crime continues to be tackled. My hon. Friend rightly drew attention to his concern that there were signs that crime has increased over recent months in Devon and Cornwall, and the latest official figures showed a slight increase. That is in contrast to the majority of forces in England and Wales, so it is not possible to link that increase with the reduction in force numbers and police numbers, because that has happened to other forces as well, yet they have continued to reduce crime.

Devon and Cornwall know that they face a challenge and that they need to get back on top of crime and deliver the reductions in crime that we saw in the previous three years. At a time when the force is restructuring, yes, that is challenging, but the force’s senior leadership and everybody who works in it know that they have to rise to that challenge. We will expect the elected police and crime commissioner representing the people of Devon and Cornwall from November to attend to that in ensuring that the force’s past performance is restored.

I should note that of those forces that are most similar to Devon and Cornwall—so there is a fair size comparison—Cambridgeshire, for example, has experienced a 5.4% fall in police officer numbers, which is about the same as Devon and Cornwall, but it successfully delivered a 9% reduction in crime in the last year. Wiltshire has reduced overall crime by 5%, while at the same time officer numbers fell by 5.9%. So it can be done, and it is being done by other forces. Of course, the circumstances of each force are different, but it is important that that performance be maintained.

My hon. Friend mentioned the various issues relating to the funding formula. Other forces make the point about visitors and I am certainly willing to have a look at that, although it might be difficult to adjust the funding formula and to work out how that could be done. However, this issue does affect other forces as well.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Nick Herbert]

I am afraid I have only two minutes left, if my hon. Friend will forgive me.

On damping, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall mentioned, the Government are consulting stakeholders about our decisions on damping for the final two years of this spending review period. Devon and Cornwall should make their representations known, if they have not already done so; they have until 29 June. We are looking at this issue and there are some forces, such as Devon and Cornwall, that lose through the damping process, while others gain. These are therefore very difficult decisions to take, but our long-term ambition remains to move away from the application of damping towards the full application of the formula, which would be fair and right. The question is how to do that in a fair manner when there have to be spending reductions for forces.

Overall, Devon and Cornwall have a spend of £181 per head of population, including central costs, which is similar to the forces’ peer average of £178. So overall, the force is not losing in terms of spend.

On the morale of police officers, we are committed to ensuring that police officers remain the best paid among the emergency services—and so they should be, reflecting the unique nature of the job they do—and committed to valuing police officers. We will ensure that changes are negotiated properly, and the Government will follow the proper negotiating procedures and ensure that we treat officers fairly and value them as we should. My hon. Friend said that we are fortunate to have the policing and the police service that we do in this country, and so we are, not least in Devon and Cornwall.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Blunt]

Improvement of offender management for all our offenders is absolutely at the heart of the probation review. With the proposed reorganisation of probation we will be getting much greater offender management, with a focus by the probation service on reducing reoffending among those receiving community sentences. The outcome of our proposals will therefore be a very much improved offender management picture right across the country.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

The Prison Service spends time and taxpayers’ money detoxing those who enter our prisons with alcohol and drug problems. However, I was shocked to find that taxpayers’ money is then spent on retoxing prisoners for their eventual release at the end of their sentences. Does the Minister agree that funding a drug habit—which is often the cause of an offender’s entering prison in the first place—makes the probation service’s job so much more difficult and is not a good use of taxpayers’ money?

[Mr Blunt]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. She will be as pleased as I am to hear that there has been a change in the clinical policy within prisons in regard to how detoxification is undertaken, resulting in a much stronger emphasis on abstinence than on maintenance. We now need to get right the transition of drug-addicted offenders from custody to the community.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tessa Munt Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Djanogly]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that there are no proposals to end legal aid for discrimination cases. I think he is confusing that with the Government’s wider decision to delay the legal aid changes by six months.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Sadly, James Herbert, a 25-year-old resident of Wells, died in police custody on 10 June 2010. The Independent Police Complaints Commission investigated and made six recommendations to the police. The coroner is holding an inquest and will consider a verdict of unlawful killing. Avon and Somerset police will have full access to taxpayer-funded legal representation, but James’s family have been refused such funding on the basis that they should use a local solicitor, should not need much preparation and can use their small savings to fund the case. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss the Legal Services Commission’s rejection of James’s parents’ application for help?

[Mr Speaker]

I am extraordinarily, almost inordinately, grateful to the hon. Lady, but before the Minister replies I am wondering whether proceedings are still active. The hon. Gentleman answering from the Treasury Bench might want to take account of that in framing any reply, with the due caution that we have come to expect of Ministers in general and lawyers in particular.