Oral Answers to Questions

Torsten Bell Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Blake Stephenson (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

9. What steps she plans to take to encourage young people to increase their private pension pots.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)]

This is an important question, and one where we have seen some good news on the back of cross-party working over the last 15 years. Automatic enrolment has succeeded in transforming participation rates in workplace pensions, particularly for young people. Participation among all eligible 22 to 29-year-olds has increased from 35% to 86%, but there is much more to do. That is why the second phase of our pension review will look at further steps to improve pension outcomes for everyone, including those lucky enough to be young.

[Blake Stephenson]

I thank the Minister for that response. Thanks to the introduction of auto-enrolment, millions of young people are now saving for their retirement, but I have heard worrying reports in Mid Bedfordshire that increases in employers’ national insurance, which have resulted in pay freezes, are now causing people to decide to opt out of pension savings. Does the Minister recognise that risk to pensions adequacy? If so, what is he doing to address it?

[Torsten Bell]

Less than 1% of savers actively opt out of saving each month, but the hon. Gentleman is completely right to say that we need to remain vigilant and ensure that opt-out rates do not rise in the years ahead. There was some more volatility in opt-out rates during the pandemic, for reasons that I am sure he will understand, but, as I say, we have been seeing those come down recently. I am happy to keep talking to him about that in the years ahead.

[Callum Anderson (Buckingham and Bletchley) (Lab)]

If we want young people, including those in my constituency, to believe in the value of long-term investing, they need to see that their pensions are helping to build the country that they live in and are not just distant markets. Will the Minister set out what steps he is taking to ensure that the Government’s pensions reforms encourage funds to invest more in UK infrastructure and hybrid companies?

[Torsten Bell]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. Although we celebrate the success of auto-enrolment, as the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Blake Stephenson) has just done, we must complete the job. We need bigger and better pension funds that are better able to deliver returns for their members, support our economy and invest in infrastructure and private assets in the months and years ahead.

[John Milne (Horsham) (LD)]

10. What estimate her Department has made of the potential impact of changes to the eligibility criteria for personal independence payment on the number of people receiving that payment who will move into employment.

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[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

12. What assessment she has made of the potential impact of means-testing the winter fuel payment on levels of pensioner poverty.

[The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)]

I refer the right hon. Member to the Secretary of State’s letter of 19 November to the Work and Pensions Committee. As well as means-testing the winter fuel payment, this Government launched the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, because we want all pensioners to receive the support to which they are entitled. The result has been almost 50,000 more awards than were received during the same period in the preceding year.

[Wendy Morton]

The Government did indeed launch a campaign to increase the number of pension credit applications, but sadly there was also a surge—an increase of 133%—in the number of claims that were not allowed, and more than 100,000 awards were not made. For many pensioners, including a number in my constituency, the winter fuel payment was a lifeline—indeed, many need their heating to be turned on throughout the year, not just during the winter—but just because of an arbitrary threshold they now receive nothing at all, and they are losing out. Will the Government look at this again, given the impact and the risk of pushing more pensioners into poverty?

[Torsten Bell]

I can tell the right hon. Member about pensioner poverty. It halved under the last Labour Government and it rose on the Conservatives’ watch, by 200,000. Yes, we have had to make some difficult choices, but it is because of those difficult choices that we can afford a £31 billion annual increase in the state pension over the current Parliament and an extra £26 billion a year for the NHS. None of those choices would the Conservatives back, which is why the NHS and the state pension would be endangered on their watch.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Wyre) (Lab)]

In my 10 years as a Member of Parliament, I have run consistent campaigns throughout my constituency to raise awareness of pension credit and encourage hundreds of people to sign up to it, but I know that many of my constituents are just above the threshold and by no means well off. What assessment will the Government make of those who are not eligible for pension credit but will still face fuel poverty next winter?

[Torsten Bell]

I am grateful for the work that has been done by councils and third sector organisations throughout the United Kingdom to drive uptake of pension credit. That work has led to the 50,000 extra awards that I mentioned earlier. The choices we have made mean that we can protect pensioners across the board, and the 4.1% increase in the state pension in April was possible exactly because of the tough choices that we have had to make.

[Mr Tom Morrison (Cheadle) (LD)]

Stockport council was one of the first local authorities to roll out the warm spaces programme that was used by third sector groups to support people in need during the winter months. Will the Government commit themselves to helping authorities roll such programmes out earlier, in the face of the winter fuel cuts and rising energy prices?

[Torsten Bell]

I am grateful for the work of local authorities, including mine in Swansea, to provide places for pensioners and, in fact, members of all age groups to go to if they are in need during the winter. The most important action we can take is tackling directly the cause of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised by bringing down energy bills in the years ahead, moving away from the system that the Conservatives left us—which is dependent on the price of gas driven by the action of dictators such as Putin—and continuing to raise the state pension faster than inflation over the current Parliament, which is why the new state pension is set to increase by £1,900 by the end of this Parliament.

[Damien Egan (Bristol North East) (Lab)]

This morning, the Work and Pensions Committee was at the Welsh Assembly, where we heard from Wales’s Older People’s Commissioner as part of our pensioner poverty review. I was impressed that Wales has a role with real legal clout. From what we heard, it is making a difference for older people in Wales. Do Ministers agree that we should at least look at extending that to England and Scotland?

[Torsten Bell]

We should always learn lessons from Wales. In fact, this Government are already doing that. The roll-out of free breakfast clubs, which is happening across England at the moment, was pioneered in Wales. Children are receiving a free breakfast because of the work done in Wales. I praise my hon. Friend and the entire Work and Pensions Committee for the work that it is doing as part of its inquiry into pensioner poverty. I will be coming to give evidence to the Committee shortly, and I know that its members have been listening not just in Wales but more widely, with events in Glasgow and Manchester as well.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

I suspect that the hon. Members on the Government Front Bench are now surrounded: I suspect that they are the only people left in this Chamber who are prepared to defend the cutting of the winter fuel payment. Dozens of their own MPs have now joined a long list of people telling the Government that they have got it wrong, including the Welsh First Minister—talking about learning lessons from Wales—the money-saving expert Martin Lewis, and voters up and down this country. The Conservatives have led this campaign from the start, but if the Government will not listen to us, will they now listen to everyone else and think again?

[Torsten Bell]

We have set out our policy, but here we are 10 months on and I have no idea what the Conservatives’ policy is. I am not even sure that they know what their policy is. For all the shouting, there is no promise to reinstate a universal winter fuel payment. There is one policy from the Leader of the Opposition, the very woman who called for the winter fuel payment to be means-tested in 2022: now, she wants to means-test the entire state pension. Apparently, that is “exactly the sort of thing we will look at”. She thinks that is bold policymaking. It is not—it is bonkers.

[Mr Speaker]

The good news is that the Minister has no responsibility for the Opposition.

[Helen Whately]

That is not something that the Leader of the Opposition said. To the point in hand—the winter fuel payment—I wonder for how much longer this tone-deaf final stand will go on. Every time the Government talk about winter fuel payments, they make out that they had no choice, but that is simply not true. To govern is to choose. At best, this policy was only ever going to save £1 billion or so, but they are spending £8 billion on setting up an energy company, and the cost of asylum hotels will rise to £15 billion under Labour. This has always been a choice, and it is the wrong one. Can the Minister guarantee that next winter, every single one of the 750,000 poorest pensioners who missed out on the winter fuel payment this year will receive it?

[Torsten Bell]

I can guarantee that this Government are going to deliver on our priorities for pensioners by raising the state pension, with a £470-a-year increase this April, and saving the NHS, with a £26 billion increase every single year. What will the Conservatives be doing? None of that, because they oppose every single measure required to fund it. We know what the Tory plan is, because we have just lived through it: pensioner poverty rising and the NHS collapsing.

[Ann Davies (Caerfyrddin) (PC)]

13. What steps she is taking through the social security system to tackle poverty in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Witherden (Montgomeryshire and Glyndŵr) (Lab)]

More than 9 million people in the UK are not actively seeking work, with long-term illness cited as the single largest reason. Does the Minister agree that rather than penalising those who are sick or disabled, the Government should introduce a wealth tax to fund a genuine transformation of our public services, enabling us to face the future with a healthier, happier and more productive workforce?

[The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)]

I refer my hon. Friend to the fair, tough choices in the 2024 autumn Budget: there are increases in inheritance tax, capital gains tax and dividends tax, and there are fair taxes on private jets and private schools. For what purpose? To fund investment in our public services, with £50 billion extra every year by the end of this Parliament. This is bringing an end to an era of austerity. Those are the fair choices that this Government have made and will continue to make.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

A number of constituents of mine in Edinburgh West—former police officers, and former and current NHS staff—have come to me with concerns about the way the McCloud judgment on public sector pensions is being implemented, and worries that they will be negatively impacted at great cost. How will the Government ensure that there is no negative impact?

[Torsten Bell]

The implementation of the McCloud judgment—unfortunately, one of the sad consequences of botched reform under the Liberal Democrat and Conservative coalition Government before 2015—is important, and we need to take it seriously. If there are specific cases, please do write to me about them. I am aware of the issue about making sure that scheme members get the details from the NHS pension scheme, and we are working together closely to make sure members get those letters as soon as possible.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Perran Moon.