Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill (First sitting)

Victoria Prentis Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

The meeting in public is now resumed and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interests in connection with this Bill?

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis)]

I come from a farming family.

[James Grundy (Leigh) (Con)]

I come from a farming family.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

All done; all declared.

We will now hear oral evidence from David Bowles, head of public affairs at the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and from Paula Boyden, veterinary director of the Dogs Trust. Before calling the first Members to ask questions, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 10.30 am. Could the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?

Paula Boyden: I am Paula Boyden. I am veterinary director of Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare organisation.

David Bowles: I am David Bowles, head of public affairs and campaigns at the RSPCA.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Hello. I am the Minister taking the Bill through. It is good to have you here. Could you start by giving us your views of the Bill, in general?

David Bowles: In general, we are very happy with the Bill. We are glad that the Government have brought the Bill forward. Obviously, it covers a number of main areas, such as sheep worrying, for example, which has not been reviewed for nearly 80 years. It covers the live export of animals, which is of course a Government manifesto commitment. We are very pleased to see that in there. It covers the licensing of and strengthens the rules on primate keeping, which has not been discussed under legislation for 11 years. The RSPCA is very happy with most of those issues. We believe that there can be improvements, as with any legislation. We are particularly concerned about the primate legislation. We would like to see a ban on keeping primates, rather than licensing, because we do not think that that will sort out the problem with private primate keeping and it will not sort out the animal welfare issues, which are primarily what the Bill is about.

On livestock worrying, we have a couple of tweaks to try to make enforcement better. On a broader point, we are concerned because Parliament, rightly, is passing legislation and looking to local authorities to enforce that legislation, whether that is complicated licensing legislation for primates or fairly simple legislation on transport rules, but the money has been cut. I think at some stage Parliament should be looking at how to enforce legislation, as well as passing more and more laws.

Paula Boyden: I will limit my comments to the areas around livestock worrying and illegal importation. Dogs Trust is broadly supportive of the proposals in the Bill. If we look first at importation, Dogs Trust has been very involved in the issue of puppy smuggling for a number of years. We are very supportive, in broad terms, of the raising of the minimum age of entry to six months. We would really like to see some science behind that. What I mean is a reintroduction of a rabies titre test and a wait period that is in line with the incubation of the disease. We think that is really quite important.

We very much welcome the reduction of the maximum point of gestation—when pregnant mums can be brought into the country. We would support a total ban on the commercial importation of pregnant mums. We see no reason for it to happen at all.

On the mutilation side of things, the provisions are again very welcome. We have seen an increase in dogs with mutilation, specifically docked tails and cropped ears, being imported. We would like to see a tweak to that, to ban not only the importation but the sale of such dogs; however, we would like a tightly worded exemption, so that as a rehoming organisation we could rehome those dogs. We have a similar situation with section 1 dogs, which we cannot rehome even if they are completely rehomeable dogs. That is really quite important.

Going back to puppy smuggling for a moment, we would really like to see a reduction in the maximum number of animals that can be in a vehicle from five to three. Sadly, we have to think of how the illegal importers work and what loopholes they would jump through. There is some science behind reducing it to three. Some work was done 10 years ago that showed that over 97% of dog owners have one, two or three pets. We have just undertaken a big dog survey with more than 240,000 respondents and we had exactly the same response—that over 97% of dog owners have one, two or three dogs—so there is good reason for that.

Like my colleague, I am broadly supportive of the livestock worrying provision, but we need some tweaks, particularly on dogs, and the definition of a dog at large in an enclosure or field. We feel that that needs tightening up to protect the livestock.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Thank you so much for coming to give evidence to us. The aim of the Bill is to bring all those who keep primates up to the level that you would expect in a zoo. I noticed, David, that you focused in on the welfare concerns, which are of course the aim of the Bill. Why would you be concerned who is keeping the primate as long as we know that they are being kept to zoo-level standards?

David Bowles: There are two issues here. The first is the welfare issue that you rightly raise. It goes back to the point about local authorities. If we need to get enforcement correct, we need to make the rules as simple as possible for the enforcement agents. This piece of legislation contains amendments to the Zoo Licensing Act 1981. Unlike in the Zoo Licensing Act, under which a trained zoo inspector goes in with the local authority inspector, on primates we just have the local authority inspector, who could be inspecting a Chinese takeaway restaurant in the morning and doing this in the afternoon. That is a problem, because you are dealing with the same animal. A marmoset or tamarin in a zoo is likely to have better enforcement and better auditing than a tamarin or marmoset with a private keeper, so it is about trying to make the rules really clear.

We also have a problem with the licensing because the RSPCA is worried that we will have a cliff edge. We do not know how many primates there are in England, but let us say that there are something like 3,000 to 5,000. The RSPCA has been getting an increasing number of calls on the inappropriate use of primates in captivity. Mostly that is because they are kept singly, they are kept in birdcages, they are not given the right ultraviolet lighting, so their bones disintegrate, or they are not given the right exercise. In other words, their welfare is not catered for in terms of the five welfare needs in the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

Under the Government’s plans there is a two-year period to bring in the licensing, and then a six-year period for the licence to operate. We worry that that is quite a long period for things to get out of control. We also worry that after two years primate keepers who have decided to give it up will suddenly abandon their primates. The RSPCA has proposed a ban on the private use of primates, but with grandfather rights, so you have a soft landing whereby if people have primates they are allowed to keep them until they die. Do not forget that marmosets and tamarins have a lifespan of about 10 to 15 years, so it will be a much softer landing.

The real concerns that we have on this are the enforcement issue and whether it is will improve the welfare of primates. Do not forget that we are 11 years on from the primate code that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs did in 2010. I think everyone now agrees and admits that that has not worked, because it is too complicated for local authorities, they do not understand what it is, and most of them do not even apply it. I do not want to have the same situation in 10 years’ time, discussing why a licensing regime for primates has not worked.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Thank you very much; that is really helpful evidence. Can we move on to puppy smuggling, or dog smuggling generally? I will also ask Paula this question in a minute; we have heard evidence that a certain number of pet owners keep more than three or four animals and, occasionally, travel with them. The most interesting evidence we have had is from Brittany Ferries, which chose a limit of five animals per vehicle. Would you like to tell us more about your sources of evidence, and about your feeling that a reduction to a limit of three would not impact on genuine pet owners?

David Bowles: Sure. You have to go back to what we are trying to do with the improvements to the pet imports, both commercial and non-commercial. We are trying to cut down the illegal trade in puppies. Clearly, under covid we have seen a massive increase in the illegal and quasi-legal trade in puppies coming in, particularly from Romania, in response to the huge spike in demand that happened during covid, when new dog owners wanted exercise, mental health improvements and companionship. Those are all very understandable reasons, but obviously supply in the UK could not keep up with that demand, and we went abroad.

We know that puppy dealers have continued despite England’s third-party ban because it has so many loop- holes. Puppy dealers have continued—indeed, they have increased—the number of puppies that they are bringing in. If you look at 2020, there were some of the highest-ever levels of declared legal commercial imports. That has continued into 2021 despite puppy prices actually stabilising and maybe even going down since January. Something strange is happening: puppies are still coming in and being sold at service stations and lay-bys, and people are still making money. The RSPCA have found that some puppy dealers are earning £2.5 million to £3 million a year. These are not small amounts of money.

In response to your question, I will refer to Paula’s excellent statistics. We do not believe that reducing the limit from five to three would make any measurable difference to legal and responsible owners going either on holiday or to dog shows, or to legal importers bringing dogs in, but it will clamp down on puppy dealers who basically make money on the misery of puppies.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q You can still go to a dog show—you would be part of the exemption—but someone travelling with a pair of dogs, with a friend who has their pair of dogs, would be caught by the reduction. Have you done an estimate of how many genuine travellers would be affected?

David Bowles: No. Dogs Trust has better statistics.

[Victoria Prentis]

Paula, would you like to come in on that?

Paula Boyden: We have not done any work on that specific issue, but I can repeat the statistics that we have. A paper published back in 2010 by Murray et al. looked at dog ownership within the UK. It found that more than 96% of dog owners have one, two or three dogs, so you are dealing with a minority. Dogs Trust has just undertaken a big dog survey, for which we surveyed over 240 dog owners. The outcome of that was that 97% of dog owners have one, two or three dogs. The numbers are incredibly low.

As David has mentioned, my concern with the comments that we are getting is whether what the ferry companies are seeing is a true reflection of dog ownership, or is it people bringing puppies in for sale to make a profit? It is not normal activity to go out and buy yourself five puppies. Those are the sorts of things that we are facing.

The other thing we have to bear in mind is just how quickly those illegal importers will change their tactics. During lockdown, we were not travelling, so we saw this enormous shift over to commercial movement. We have to think of the unintended consequences of whatever happens. Reducing the number of animals to three per vehicle is an appropriate way to go, because at the moment, you could just pitch up at the port, pick up a couple of foot passengers and bring in 15 dogs.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Yes, that is one of the reasons that we are taking regulation-making powers in the Bill: so that we can adjust our regulatory mechanism to cope with the changing world of puppy smuggling, which, as we have seen, changes very quickly—there is a lot of money at stake.

To move on to livestock worrying for a moment, how do you think we can best encourage dog owners to act responsibly around livestock?

Paula Boyden: Part of that will be legislation, but that is only one part of it. We know that the majority of livestock worrying is actually by dogs who are not with their owners and have escaped from a garden, so there is an element of irresponsible ownership there. Certainly, some of the proposals within the Bill—about tackling those irresponsible owners, depriving them of their dogs and banning them from keeping dogs—are appropriate.

However, that is only one part of it, and the proposals could certainly be tightened up. As someone who has worked for the Dogs Trust, but also as a vet and a dog owner, I see no reason why a dog should be off a lead in an enclosure or field where there are livestock. My feelings would be that the species that are listed at the moment is limited. Why would we limit that list of species?

There are a couple of other elements we need to work on. We need to work with the farming community. For example, signs on gates are fine, but if that sign is up 12 months of the year, then folk become conditioned to it because they know that, at times, there will not be livestock in the field. We also need good, accurate recording and reporting of livestock worrying from the police force perspective, because we do not know the true extent, and if we put these measures into place, how do we know what is good or not?

Part of it will absolutely be around owner education, and I have concerns with some of the current wording in the Bill, such as a dog not being deemed to be “at large” if it is in sight of the owner and the owner has a reasonable idea that they can get the dog back. In sight of the owner could be two fields away. For me, that is not under control. I am not suggesting that every time a dog goes into the country, it should be on a lead, but in an enclosure where there is livestock, then I think it should be taken as read that a dog should be on a lead.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Are there differences of opinion within the Dogs Trust on the lead issue?

Paula Boyden: Not within a specific enclosure. Obviously, we have things like common land, and that is a different element; that is where we do have to rely on dog owners to be vigilant and to ensure, as best they can, that there are no livestock there before they let their dog off the lead. However, if I was in a field of sheep, why would I have my dog off the lead? Even with the best-trained dog in the world, can you 100% say that that dog will not go if a lamb runs away?

It must be proportionate. We do not want to be the fun police; we do not want to stop dogs having off-lead exercise because it is really important for their enrichment, but it must be proportionate. Aside from the financial impact, a dog worrying livestock is traumatic for the farmer. No farmer will want to shoot a dog, but that is the sort of resolution that will happen in those sorts of situations. We want to avoid that, both for the farming community and for our dog owners too.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

Q It is a pleasure to be on this Committee. I am really looking forward to it. I think is an interesting and important Bill. Thank you both for giving evidence this morning.

Going to the RSPCA first, this is a slightly odd Bill, in the sense that it is a collection of bits and pieces. While being careful to remain within the scope of the Bill, it is perfectly possible to imagine that there are other things that could have been included. Could you reflect on that first? What would your priorities be if you were drawing up this Bill from scratch?

David Bowles: Yes, it is a bit of a potpourri, you are right, but the RSPCA is not against that, so long as we can get improvements to animal welfare. The Government came in with something like nine or 10 animal welfare commitments, and we are delighted that they are moving on those commitments, whether it is the sentience Bill, this Bill, or the Animals Abroad Bill.

The RSPCA are glad to see the issues that are in there, and the main issue for us is ensuring that it is done properly; you only get one chance at this. I have mentioned primates, and I totally agree with Paula on the livestock worrying side of things. We need to make it as easy as possible for enforcement people. Having statements like “at large” is not an easy thing for an enforcement person to go out with and then work out.

The Scottish Government also passed legislation on this only this year. Unfortunately, their Act is not that helpful for us, because it also does not define “at large”. I think that will be a problem for enforcement agents. We should always look to write legislation that will be easy to enforce. Unfortunately, this Parliament—not this particular Parliament, but Parliament in general—has a track record of passing legislation that maybe has not done what it was supposed to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Alison Cronin MBE, director of Monkey World; Dr Simon Girling, chair of the Zoos Expert Committee, who will appear virtually; and Dr Jo Judge, chief executive of the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. For this session we have until 11.25 am. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Dr Cronin: Good morning. I am Dr Alison Cronin, director of Monkey World, an ape rescue centre in Dorset. I have been rescuing and rehabilitating primates from around the globe for the past 30 years.

Dr Girling: Hello. I am Dr Simon Girling. I am currently the head of veterinary services to the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland and chair of DEFRA’s Zoos Expert Committee. I have been a veterinary specialist in zoo and wildlife medicine for the last 18 years.

Dr Judge: Hello. I am Dr Jo Judge, the chief executive of the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which is the professional association for good zoos and aquariums in the UK and Ireland.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Thank you all very much for coming to give evidence; it is great to meet you. I will start with Alison and focus on primates to begin with. I do not know whether you heard the evidence from David from the RSPCA in the previous session, but he took the view that it would be preferable to have a blanket ban on primate ownership. I know that in the past you have thought about that very carefully, and you took the view that a licensing system would be preferable. Do you want to tell us more about your views on that?

Dr Cronin: Yes. Over the years of rescuing and rehoming primates from the British pet trade, we have come across numerous individuals who have reached out to us to rehome the primates that they have kept as specialist keepers. I mean that in the true sense of the word. They are hobbyists who are dedicated to the care and welfare of their animals. They keep them in zoo-style environments with indoor and outdoor enclosures and access to professional veterinary care and social groupings. They feed them appropriate diets, stay up to date with the most current literature, and keep them as a specialist keeper, often contributing to conservation programmes that are zoo based.

I have received numerous calls from people of that type asking me to rehome their primates because they are getting elderly or see their circumstances changing, and want to do the correct thing by their primates. In those circumstances, I have often asked those individuals to keep their primates until the situation occurs where they feel that they can longer look after them, because I have so many that are being kept in bird cages, in solitary confinement and in people’s sitting rooms.

For me, it was a case of being practical and acknowledging that primates can be kept by private individuals to a reasonable standard of welfare if the appropriate guidelines and legislation are set out. The problem in existing legislation is that all marmosets, all species of tamarin, titi monkeys and squirrel monkeys—totalling 66 different species of primate—can be bought and sold over the counter or on social media like budgies or goldfish. No offence to budgies or goldfish, but those are animals with higher sentience, family groupings and greater physical and emotional needs, so greater concern needs to be given.

I am trying to be practical. I am trying to offer what I consider to be reasonable adjustments to current legislation and employing existing legislation, which is the strongest in the country right now that protects captive primates—the Zoo Licensing Act. I have just tried to offer a practical thing. I am not concerned about making a political statement about where the animals are kept; I am simply concerned about how they are kept. To me, the most important aspect is the health and welfare of these animals, not who is keeping them.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Thank you; that is very helpful. Do you have views on the proposed transition scheme? The RSPCA talked to us about grandfathering rights. Do you have a view on how we should best move from the current system to the new system?

Dr Cronin: I think giving people the opportunity to make the circumstances correct is probably the right thing—again, I am trying to be practical. Because there is no registration system for said 66 different species of primate that can be kept, we do not know how many are out there right now. Some organisations have tried to put numbers on it, but they range from 1,000 to 5,000. Which is it? Actually, we don’t know. Where will all those animals go? Monkey World has taken in more than 120 primates from the British pet trade, in more than 25 years. I have taken in 15 just over the last two years.

The number of species and individuals is clearly increasing. In order to deal with the situation practically, if there are circumstances in which some of these shorter-lived primates—I am still talking about 12 to 15 years—can have their needs met in a captive situation, should these animals be allowed to live out their lives in what is deemed to be appropriate and reasonable circumstances, rather than just taking a categorical stance? Again, as I am on the frontline picking up the pieces, I am trying to offer a practical solution, when I know I already have over 100 primates on my waiting list.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Are you concerned that if there were to be an outright ban, you would have more pieces to pick up?

Dr Cronin: Any form of this legislation will cause an increase in the numbers needing rehoming—that is just a fact. All organisations are agreed that something has to change so that the species with no registration system have some form of protection of their care and what they are provided. Everybody is agreed that something has to be done here, and we will do our best to accommodate and pick up the pieces.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q You clearly have a wealth of experience in caring for primates. Do you feel we have tapped that experience to inform the new zoo standards? Has your voice been heard?

Dr Cronin: I have just recently—within the last few weeks—been taken on to the zoos expert committee. I have come in at a later stage, but I am impressed with what has been proposed. Perhaps contrary to what was stated earlier, it seems to me that the standards are put across a level playing field, focused on bringing perhaps the smaller zoos that are not ticking all the boxes up to the same standard, regardless of size.

I think I am pleasantly surprised, as a user of the Zoo Licensing Act, to see a bit more focus on conservation and spelling out what that is. I could go through details over and over again. In particular, recently I was very dismayed to see so many of the larger zoos in the country immediately claim, after only a few weeks of closure, that they would potentially have to euthanise animals if they did not receive financial grants from the Government. Our organisation is not a large zoo in comparison to most. I am dedicated to the care and welfare of my animals, whether it is for my lifetime or for one year, and I think that it is essential that zoos operate with a budget that enables them to close for one year. That is an obligation that they should have to the endangered species that they are protecting, and one on which they seem to have fallen short up until now. Details such as that are in the proposed legislation.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Thank you; that is very helpful. Jo, how do you feel about the arguments about a blanket ban versus a licensing system?

Dr Judge: We would also support a licensing system. I agree with many of the points that Alison made about primates as pets. We think that you should be banned from keeping primates as pets in a domestic setting, but there are a number of responsible, registered—with BIAZA—keepers who keep their animals to a zoo standard, and their animal welfare is at the highest level. They play an important part in some breeding and conservation programmes. Although we fully agree that you should not be allowed to keep a lemur or marmoset in a birdcage in a living room, and would like to see that banned, we think that a well-resourced and effective licensing system is the way to go to enable the people who keep those animals at high welfare standards and contribute to conservation programmes to keep those animals. As Alison said, a complete ban would drive the trade underground and leave more animals in need of rehoming and more animals likely to be abandoned. We are very much in favour of banning them as pets but allowing a licensing system for responsible keepers.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q I will move to Simon. Do you feel that the zoo standards have been drafted in consultation with the experts on your committee?

Dr Girling: Yes, I genuinely do believe that that is the case. We currently have 12 members plus myself on the committee. The members cover a wide range of disciplines, from veterinary surgeons who have worked for many years and are recognised as specialists within the community to those who are working in a variety of zoo licensed premises—from larger zoos to smaller ones. We have members from academia, covering various areas of welfare, ethics and education, and we have local authority representation.

In addition, the standards have not been drafted purely by the committee. The committee has involved the zoo community, the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. A number of members of BIAZA’s groups have contributed. These are just a few of them: the reptile and amphibian working group, terrestrial invertebrates, the native species research committees, veterinary working groups, elephant welfare groups and great apes welfare groups. We have widely consulted with the industry, from zoos to aquaria, and across a wide range and spectrum of different zoo licensed premises to ensure that the standards genuinely represent both what the industry wishes to drive forward and what we feel is important, which is improving conservation and welfare in zoo licensed premises.

I am very pleased to have new members such as Alison on board to bring their expertise and scrutiny and to bring different perspectives on these new standards, which I genuinely believe will improve welfare and conservation in zoo licensed premises in the UK.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Thank you. Do you feel that it is a good move to absorb the conservation standards within the other zoo standards?

Dr Girling: The conservation standards have not so much been absorbed but created within the standards. There was very little reference to conservation in the standards originally. Zoos have given many different examples over the years of contributing to conservation, including simply donating money to organisations that carry out conservation on their behalf or, in some cases, breeding species that are not on any sort of IUCN red list and saying that that is conservation.

We do not believe that, in a modern zoo, that actually represents conservation, so the Bill provides an opportunity for us to more clearly define what conservation is and how zoos can implement that, and to tailor it to ensure that it reflects the size of the zoological collection. We would expect some of the larger zoos not only to collaborate with conservation measures, but actively to lead them. It is an opportunity, which I believe the standards reflect, to significantly increase the definition of what conservation is and to improve it within zoo licensed premises.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q Great. Finally, are you aware that the consultation will start shortly and are you geared up for joining in with it?

Dr Girling: Absolutely. Hopefully, the consultation will be out before the end of the year. It will be a 12-week process targeted to the industry and other bodies, such as local authorities that have a stake in the zoo world and veterinary organisations involved in it. There will be discussion—quite rightly so—and there will be some areas that people will want more detail on, but I am confident that the standards as they stand represent a significant improvement in clarity, particularly on welfare and conservation.

That will help when we are talking about local authorities potentially being able to implement penalties, because it will give them more teeth to deal with zoos that are genuinely failing. I am confident that the consultation will be out in the next month or so, so that we can get the standards into force. We have to remember that this is the first major change to the standards for nearly 10 years, so a significant amount of change has occurred.

Dr Judge: May I come in on a couple of those points? ZEC has done a fantastic job and has involved different individuals from different BIAZA working groups in its consultation, but BIAZA itself has not been involved in the consultation and has not seen the majority of the standards yet. Those experts have been involved in developing the standards, but at the moment there is no requirement for any consultation when the standards are reviewed. We would like to see some assurance that when standards are reviewed, now and in future, there is wider consultation.

[Victoria Prentis]

Q For what it is worth, I can give you the assurance that there will certainly be a consultation starting shortly. I believe you have been involved in some of the discussions about that.

Dr Judge: Yes, we have, but it would be great to have a requirement set down somewhere that that will always happen when they are being developed rather than when they go out for wider consultation.

ZEC gives advice to the Government, and that advice is great, but there is no transparency about that at the moment. There is no requirement for it to publish its advice. We would like to see the advice around the standards brought into line with the new animal sentience committee, and it being given the ability to publish its advice, so there would be greater transparency, which would make the standards process more robust.

On moving conservation into the standards, we very much support the highest conservation requirements for zoos and aquariums. We believe that all modern zoos should provide impactful conservation, so we support that, but we would like assurances around consultation, transparency and accountability of the standards as they are reviewed.

[Daniel Zeichner]

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence to us today. I am still slightly confused about the group of people we are dealing with. I think we are all agreed that there is a group—of how many, we are not sure—who are keeping primates in entirely inappropriate conditions, and we want to clamp down on that.

However, I listened very closely to your evidence, and you both said, “a number of”. A number can be anything from one to quite a few. I am not at all clear how many people we are talking about who are, in your words, in a position to keep primates to zoo standards. I would really welcome a stab from both of you at how many people we are actually talking about. That goes back to my question to the RSPCA: who are they? They are clearly not the kind of people we are trying to clamp down on, who are keeping primates in totally inappropriate conditions. How many can do it properly?

Dr Cronin: In our experience over the years, I can only comment on the numbers and proportions I have seen. Specialist keepers who have reached out to us or that I am aware of are probably one in 30. It is a very small fraternity of people—the personal hobbyists, if you will—who are prepared to spend the amount of money, time and effort needed to keep these animals properly. It is not straightforward; you have to invest a lot of time and effort into it and have back-up resources for going on holiday, or anything like that. So the number of specialist keepers is very small.

What has happened in the last decade is that social media has driven the trade in keeping exotic pets—primates in particular—in households to increase someone’s social media standing and the like. It has got out of control, and I think everybody agrees that that is the frontline that needs to be tackled first. Then, perhaps, additional legislation to deal with any outstanding issues surrounding those specialist keepers might be a follow-on. However, I think we all agree that the frontline triage is to stop the over-the-counter trade of primates being sold in birdcages to be kept in sitting rooms in solitary confinement. I do not think anybody has a problem with that being the primary focus.

Dr Judge: It is very difficult to put a number on it. We only have a handful of what we call our accredited associates, who are people who keep primates to that zoo standard in a private setting. There are also a number of sanctuaries that do not have a zoo licence because they do not allow visitors, which is what would tip them over into needing a zoo licence. At the moment, it is unclear how those sanctuaries would be affected by a ban. Presumably, with the licensing procedure, they would be able to carry on.

Those people are genuinely very passionate about their primates. The ones we deal with are very keen to be involved in conservation and breeding programmes; they are also people who will take animals that other people cannot properly house, and so on. They form a vital part of the safekeeping of primates in the UK. We do not know how many there are at the moment, but it is unlikely to be a massive number.

Dr Cronin: May I add one short comment? There is also an issue with pet shops and people taking advantage of loopholes in legislation by keeping primates in the pet shop, but not offering them for sale. Do those animals fall under the pet shop licence, or are they now in need of a dangerous wild animals licence, or the specialist keepers’ licence we are talking about? The whole issue surrounding pet shops needs to be tightened up. Also, as was mentioned earlier, there are all the farm parks that currently fall in between legislation. Are they zoos or not if they have a parrot and a marmoset? It is in those situations that animals are being neglected and falling short of legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Olivia Blake]

Every two years, not annually.

[Victoria Prentis]

That is every two years, but for vets—hang on; let me find the right bit of the Bill.

[Olivia Blake]

Q So it is not annual. Would you prefer it to be annual? Is six years too long?

Dr Cronin: Being practical, that sounds untenable. The weight unloaded on local authorities has to be balanced. I am not sure that I see all this being dumped on the local authority on an annual basis. I think that every two years is acceptable. I would think that every six years is too long. I think that a fair medium has been struck.