The Secretary of State’s Handling of Universal Credit
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debate16:00 - The House divided: - Ayes: 268 / Noes: 305 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Ms Esther McVey)
Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for clearing that up—that we are discussing the Question as is on the Order Paper.
We are introducing a new benefits system to assist people into work in this new technological era—a system that will support people so that they can become more economically secure and progress in life. We are introducing universal credit to remove the problems of the old benefits system that we inherited and that put barriers in the way of people fulfilling their potential.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Ms McVey
I will not give way just yet, but I will in a moment.
There used to be the 16-hour rule, which we all know about. That barrier was stopping people working more hours, and then they would have to go through the disruption of coming off benefit to start another benefit. People on employment and support allowance could be faced with a choice between financial support and work, although we know that thousands of them would have liked to work as well. Once people were in work, they were too often caught up by another set of rules and hours for tax credits. Do we not all remember and know all too well the problems with tax credits, given the hundreds of thousands of letters that we received?
Universal credit cuts through all of that by bringing the six different benefits together and replacing them with a single system whereby claimants receive tailored support to help them into work—a system whereby claimants only have to deal with one organisation and a system that ensures that it always pays to be in work. This is what we are doing. Let me relay again how many people we have now helped into work since 2010—over 3.3 million people, or 1,000 more every day, through the support we are giving. The roll-out is slow. Where we need to slow down we have done, and where we have needed to make changes we have done.
Several hon. Members rose—
Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will remember that back in 2013 I warned that this was not a benefit that was ready for wide-scale roll-out. In my Birmingham constituency, we have the DWP telling my constituents that they cannot apply for housing credit through universal credit. They get sent to Birmingham City Council, which then sends them back to the DWP. There is still a level of chaos on the frontline that meant that one of my constituents told me that not only could they not afford to eat, she could not afford to put socks on her children’s feet.
Several hon. Members rose—
Ms McVey
Hang on, everybody.
The comments that are being made today are the comments that we had to check for accuracy, which were sent out to scare people just before Christmas. An email from the Labour party on 6 December said that
“40,000 children will wake up in poverty on Christmas Day”.
It also sent out a video—checking the accuracy here—saying that
“millions of people are faced with poverty, debt and eviction as a result of Universal Credit”
and asking us to pause and fix universal credit. This went to the UK Statistics Authority, which said:
“It is clearly important that statements by a political party should be fully supported by statistics and sources…We do not believe”
they were. As I am in a generous mood today, will Opposition Front Benchers take this opportunity to apologise? They have not so far. It took me two days to apologise. Would they like to apologise?
Margaret Greenwood
Will the Secretary of State apologise for the two points she has failed yet to apologise for to the head of the National Audit Office?
Ms McVey
The answer is no, they will not be apologising.
As it is about apologies today—and, as I said, I made my apology straight away—let us go back to another apology. I was hoping that the shadow Chancellor would be here today, because I was waiting for years for an apology for the lynching comment against me. Of course, we never got that apology. As the Opposition spokesperson knows all about that campaign in Wirral West, perhaps she would like to apologise on behalf of her party.
Margaret Greenwood
The point that the Secretary of State makes had nothing to do with my campaign in Wirral West in 2015.
Ms McVey
So that is twice we have not had an apology from the Opposition.
I now move back to tax credits. Tax credits were introduced in 2003 with an error rate, I am told, of 10% to 14%. Some people call this Brown’s burden—or maybe it is just Labour’s burden. I offer this opportunity now: does anybody on the Opposition Front Bench want to apologise for those tax credits and the mistakes therein? Whether it is on scaremongering or on one of the reasons we brought in universal credit—the failings of the tax credits system—we see that nobody is prepared to apologise.
It is not that we cannot all make mistakes. We have all made mistakes on various scales. But for the only mistake I ever made in this House, I just apologised. Most people think you do that in everyday life, but in this House the Opposition do not apologise, whereas I am prepared to do so.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
A constituent of mine recently asked when they would be able to move on to universal credit because they had heard very good things about the support and flexibility it could provide. Is it not important to continue to roll out universal credit to give more people the opportunity to go on to a better benefit?
Ms McVey
My hon. Friend is quite right. She is referring to the real people who are going on this benefit who want an opportunity to have a chance. This is not about a politician who is here to oppose—and I understand that—but people who say, “We’d like to go on this new benefit and we’d like to have a simpler system.”
The motion on the Order Paper says that “20% of claimants” are
“unable to make a claim online”.
Well, I will break down the figures so that we all know what happened here. The claimants survey shows that 98% of people successfully make a claim online. Here are the figures that underpin that: 54% make their claim on their own; 21% had help from others, including organisations like Citizens Advice and family members; and 20%—I am assuming that this is the 20% the Opposition are talking about—had help from jobcentre staff. That is what this benefit system is about—people need help and support. We know that some of them might not be able to use IT. We have brought in this system because in this modern age where technology is vital, people can only get a job if they can go online. We are now going to provide that universal support to allow people to go online. We have put £200 million into local authorities to help and support people with budgeting and IT. I will offer Opposition Front Benchers the opportunity to apologise for putting out this information. Would they like to take that opportunity now? It seems they are not doing to be doing that now.
I go back to the right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson) about fact checks in the Department and what happened there. He is looking for the timeline. I left here having checked what was going on. I then asked the Department to go through the various bits that we did together and said that there were various elements within the letter. That night, I checked it again, and so it was Tuesday when I asked for permission to come to the House. The timeline on which I was allowed to do it—he is quite right—was 48 hours later, but actually it was Tuesday when I asked to come to the House. I then met Amyas Morse on Monday and we discussed the various elements of the report. As I said, I have faith in the organisation—of course I do—but that does not mean that you always have to come to the same conclusion—the same judgments—from a report. I am rather surprised—or maybe not—that so many Opposition Members talk about auditors in another way. People can look at different sets of facts and come to a different result, which is what we did.
I said it was unfortunate that the NAO could not have taken into account all the impacts of those changes; that was not anything against the organisation. Those changes came in in January, February and April, so the NAO could not have taken them into account. I was not casting any aspersions on the organisation. It is interesting to note that paragraph 2.34 of the NAO’s report says:
“It is too early to assess the impact of this change.”
It says that in the report. In that instance, which is what we were talking about, it was too early to have felt the impacts of all those changes, and that is the crunch of it. When I misspoke, I corrected myself, but the impacts of the changes could not have been felt.
Catherine West
I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way. What does she make of the evidence about people who have fallen off benefits and are not good on computers, one of whom is sleeping in a tent in a bin chamber on the Vincent Square estate in my constituency but now has to be moved on? These people have no help. They do not have what it takes for this difficult set of benefit rules.
Ms McVey
If people have fallen on hard times, we reach out to and support them. If that person is not getting the support, I ask the hon. Lady to work with me. We can go to the local jobcentre to see what has happened, because that is not right, and ensure that he gets his support and that we get him into housing and get him the benefits he needs. Rather than someone standing up and saying those things, let us work together, across the Floor of the House, to help that person who needs it. Is she prepared to work with me to help that person?
Catherine West
This is a matter for the public record. It has been on my Twitter feed in the last 48 hours. This is how people are living day in, day out—in a tent in a bin chamber.
Ms McVey
I asked the hon. Lady if she would work with me. All I needed from her—I could not have said it in a more imploring way—was a yes or no, and she felt unable to say yes. She should have said yes.
We have been through what this benefit is about and how it is supporting people. It is about having a work coach. It is about personalised support. It is about having a universal support package. It is about getting more people into work: as I have said so many times, 1,000 more people into work every day since 2010. That is what it is about. The prize will be a cultural shift in welfare. The impact has got to be positive for each and every one of us. It has got to be about getting more people into work. It has got to be about a simpler benefit system. As we proceed with the roll-out, we look, we learn and we change. Even since January, I have listened and learned, whether that was about kinship carers, 18 to 21-year-olds or the latest change for the severe disability premium.
When we brought in the changes at the Budget—£1.5 billion-worth of changes, or thereabouts—to remove the waiting time and offer extra support through a two-week run-over and the advance, the Opposition voted against that. They would have denied vulnerable people £1.5 billion and all those changes. I will ask them now: do they apologise for that? No. Again, we do not have an apology for not wanting those significant changes for disabled people.
Sir Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. She was talking about co-operation. Is she aware that in King’s Lynn, the DWP has moved into local council offices and now has a fantastic open-plan office that is a centre of excellence for service delivery? I visited last week, and every person I spoke to was 100% supportive of universal credit. They cannot wait for it to be rolled out. They have had nothing but good experiences in the offices around the country that they have visited, so they support the Secretary of State 100%.
Ms McVey
I thank my hon. Friend for his comment.
This is what it is about, and I keep saying that. It is not about scaremongering. It is not about saying things even the UK Statistics Authority says is scaremongering. It is not about making people’s journey to claim benefit even more difficult. We want to make the journey to claim benefit easier for people. While the Opposition would not apologise for voting to stop that £1.5 billion-worth of support, we now have changes coming through to support people through the severe disability premium. I want to ask the Opposition: will they be voting with the Government to make sure we support those people, or will they take a stance by voting against? We have no answer again.
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
You took the disability premium away!
Ms McVey
We are bringing in a new benefit system. We have helped 1,000 people a day into work since 2010. We have said that where we have got it wrong, we will change it and put it right, which we have done in instances where we felt it was wrong. The aim is to get people prepared for a modern technological age so that they can engage in work, and we will support people who cannot as best we can. That is what a compassionate party does—help people into work and support those who cannot work.
Several hon. Members rose—
Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
An apology: I was in the House when somebody repeated that campaign phrase against the Secretary of State. I was stunned by what was said, and I hope that she will forgive me for not getting up immediately to object to it. I apologise for my total failure to respond as a human being when that was said, and I hope that she forgives me if I do not actually recite what was said, because such nastiness and evil is not directed just at her; it is directed at my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the neighbouring constituency to the one that the Secretary of State fought. What is occurring is a disgrace. How we stop it, I do not know, but we can at least apologise when it occurs. I am grateful that the right hon. Lady raised it today so that my saying that would be in order.
Ms McVey
I know those words are heartfelt, and I accept that apology. It took a long time for people to come forward. I would have liked those on the Opposition Front Bench to have done so, because they represent the Labour party, and I know that such a thing is not at the heart of the Labour party.
We started off with a ding-dong in the Chamber today. I do not necessarily think that we are at our best in Parliament when we have a ding-dong like that. People watching outside do not understand the real reasons why we, on both sides of the House, came into politics. I put this on the record now: let us work cross-party to get universal credit right. Let us work with third sector organisations to get it right. Let us reach out and get it right, because it affects so many millions of people. We are doing our best, and lots more people are in work, but we can do more. Let us do it together.
Frank Field
One last point: Back Benchers can apologise only for our own action or inaction. That is my apology.
In this debate, one wonders what truth is and what facts are. When reading the NAO report, I reached totally different conclusions to the Secretary of State. I thought the message was that the Comptroller and Auditor General was perplexed beyond belief that he could not recommend to go back or to go forward. There was a clear recommendation that we should pause, and I ask the Secretary of State for that pause—not never to resume the roll-out, but to at least to ensure that we are not inflicting unnecessary suffering, horror and hunger on our constituents, which Opposition Members have certainly registered, and which must have been registered by Members on the other side of the House.
Frank Field
Yes, indeed, but I am really anxious to respond to the Secretary of State’s wish that we work together. The building block of working together is to take that key sentence from the NAO report, whatever else it said, about a pause—not to scrap universal credit, but to have a pause—to make sure that in three respects we are not party to inflicting untold misery, horror and hunger on our constituents.
The first is that we do not continue the roll-out until we have universal support. We do not have universal support in the way in which all of us understand the word universal.
Secondly, on real-time information, the experience in my constituency—it must be the experience in other constituencies as well—is that real-time information is neither real nor on time. That is causing the most incredible problems with people’s claims. Might we have a pause until we make sure the Revenue can service the Secretary of State’s Department in a way that we need for a successful continuation of the roll-out of universal credit?
Thirdly, on debt, on which the Secretary of State could decide today, debts of yesteryear are being found and charged to people on universal credit. The repayment of those debts is overwhelming people. I am not saying that people should not pay their debts, but do we not think that feeding one’s children, and ensuring the rent is paid and the heating is on, ought to be at least equal in importance to the repayment of debt? Might I therefore make a plea to the Secretary of State that she looks at the rules—not to scrap the repayment of debt, but the amount that is reclaimed—on debts that most of us will have forgotten?
Frank Field
That is wonderful news, but after the right hon. Lady has considered debt and decided on it there is the business about real-time information. This is not under her control as the information is supplied to her by another Department. It is not real and it is not on time, so perhaps she could look at that as the next item on the list. There is also the crucial business of universal support. I tried to claim, but I could not do it in the time. A lot of us need that support to make sure we can make a claim successfully. If we are going to work cross-party on this, there has to be give on the other side as well as on this side.
Simon Hoare
Thank you for that. Let me quote from a constituent of mine:
“I went in great fear of UC. I thought it would be too difficult and cruel. I thought things would be made hard for me and my family. But I applied. It was easy and far simpler than I thought.”
He said that the only mistake he made was that he had listened to Labour and that it was Labour that had made him afraid of the process. That is the legacy of the approach.
In closing, I invite my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to consider—the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) and I have discussed this—the role and effectively the right of audience that those who work for the CAB have in this process. There seems to be some confusion. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that she convene, at a moment of her convenience, some form of roundtable to establish some form of protocol for those in the CAB who do valiant work for our constituents.
Ms McVey
Members on both sides of the House have mentioned that, so I will answer my hon. Friend. I met the CAB the other day. In terms of what we are putting forward, I think what he is suggesting could be in my mind, too. We will be working on something that I can announce pretty shortly; we will be working together to help benefit claimants.
Simon Hoare
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend. That underscores the approach that she has outlined of listening and engaging. In that spirit, I urge her and her Department to issue—this may not be the right phraseology—some form of national guidance to all CAB offices and to all Members across the House on what the role of the CAB is. I take my hat off to them; I have two CAB offices serving my constituency. They often deal with very complex debt issues, which I am certainly not qualified to deal with. We owe those volunteers, who give up so much of their time, a huge debt of thanks. As I said, the hon. Member for Oxford East and I have discussed this. We came to different views on the advice that we had been given, so such guidance would be very welcome indeed.
Let us not forget the value of work and what should always be the temporary nature of state support for people with regards to welfare. It is not a way of life, but a helping hand. It is a safety net to self-determination, self-reliance and support for family. I am convinced that universal credit will deliver that, and it has my support.
The Minister for Employment (Alok Sharma)
I believe that each of us in this House, whatever our political persuasion, came into politics to help build a fairer society. Indeed, that sense of fairness is part of the very DNA of the British people, and the desire for fairness extends to our welfare system—a system where we support the vulnerable, those looking to get into work and those wanting to increase their hours. That is precisely what universal credit does. It takes a complicated benefits system and simplifies it. Under this system, the claimant is provided with one-to-one support for the first time by their work coach. This support is making a real difference to progress into employment and is increasing people’s earnings.
We have published research that shows that, once people are on universal credit, they get into work fast and stay in work longer and that they will be earning more. Just last month, we published a survey that showed that the percentage of those in employment almost doubles between the point of making the claim and nine months into universal credit. For every extra hour worked, people get to keep more of their own money. Under universal credit, work absolutely pays.
The Opposition have said that we are ploughing ahead with the universal credit roll-out. This argument simply does not hold water. We are listening, learning and improving, getting the delivery of universal credit right, with a roll-out taking place at a measured rate. Let me give an example. In the autumn Budget, we announced a £1.5 billion package of extra support for claimants. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has set out precisely what was in that package. We listened; we acted; and we helped claimants.
Several hon. Members rose—
Alok Sharma
I will not give way.
What did the Opposition do? They cynically voted against the regulations that allowed the £1.5 billion of support to be made available to claimants. I get that the Opposition are there to oppose, but that should not be at the cost of helping the very people they claim to represent. Opposition Members have raised individual cases of claimants who have been suffering hardship. How many of those hon. Members have looked those individual claimants in the eye and explained why they voted to deny them the help and support that they needed? [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. The Minister has listened to all the questions and is now answering them, so he should not be shouted at by hon. Members on either side of the House.
Alok Sharma
Let us talk about the help that the work coaches are giving. The NAO report says:
“A survey of live service claimants found that claimant satisfaction levels were similar to those on legacy benefits and in our visits to jobcentres we observed good relationships between work coaches and claimants.”
The support is available, and it is working and helping people to get into work.
Alok Sharma
No, I will not give way.
Thanks to the policies of this Conservative Government, we are at record levels of employment. Once universal credit is fully rolled out, we will support another 200,000 people into work. The tone and the wording of Labour’s motion today has been disappointing and, frankly, ill-judged in personally attacking my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
My right hon. Friend set out in her speech some of the positive changes that she has made, with the support of the whole brilliant DWP team. She has instigated these changes since coming into her role. Labour Members should actually be thanking her for her proactivity, not seeking to censure her today. They have offered absolutely no solutions today—just scaremongering. Their only answer appears to be to let people languish in a legacy system that effectively washes its hands of them.
When we go forward with universal credit, of course we are going to listen. But at the heart of universal credit there lies a very simple but incredibly powerful idea—that we should help people to achieve their full potential, and that is precisely what this Government are going to do.
Question put.