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Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Srebrenica Memorial Week
(10 months, 1 week ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Srebrenica Memorial Week.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing us the opportunity to hold this debate in time to mark the commemoration of the Srebrenica genocide. I also thank the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) and the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), who are co-sponsors of this debate. Their support is a testament to the fact that this issue transcends all party divides in this House and across the country.
The Srebrenica genocide and the events leading up to it contain important lessons on which we must take this opportunity to reflect. The House is familiar with the story of the appalling atrocity. The Bosnian war from 1992 to 1995 saw the planned, systematic and industrialised murder of just under 100,000 Muslims, the displacement of 2 million people and the genocidal rape of about 50,000 women simply because of their Muslim identity.
In July 1995, the Bosnian Serb General Mladić and his forces seized the Bosnian town of Srebrenica, which had been declared a UN safe area. Over just a few days, more than 8,000 people, mainly Bosnian Muslim men and boys, were systematically murdered by the Bosnian Serb forces. The bodies were dumped in mass graves and later moved to secondary and even tertiary mass graves as the Bosnian Serb soldiers sought to cover up what they had done. There are still some people missing.
I am sure that, like me, colleagues here today remember the harrowing scenes of the war in Bosnia on our television screens. We watched neighbours turn against neighbours, friends against friends, ethnicity against ethnicity. I will not forget seeing the images of the emaciated prisoners held in the concentration camp while looking on in disbelief that ethnic cleansing, systematic mass rape and genocide were all happening not in a faraway place, but in Europe.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the hon. Lady for securing this debate. I apologise to you, Sir Robert, and to the hon. Lady for not being able to make a speech. I wish to do so, but I have to attend the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee—I have permission to leave it for a short time and then return.
The genocide convention places obligations on the UK Government not only to punish the perpetrators of such crimes, but to predict and prevent those atrocities from happening. Unfortunately, as Srebrenica showed, we keep forgetting that duty. The International Development Committee’s report, “From Srebrenica to a safer tomorrow”, challenged the UK Government to incorporate prevention at all stages of the policy cycle, including trade, education, supply chains and asylum policy. Does the hon. Member agree that that work needs to be done at pace to prevent an escalation because of not just what happened in Srebrenica, but what is happening now in Sudan and Nigeria?
Yasmin Qureshi
I entirely agree and thank the hon. Member for his intervention. We need to continue to work on this and take action across the board, so that these things do not happen again.
Bosnia was a horrific reminder of the vulnerability of ordinary people. It made me question how that could happen on our doorstep when the world had pledged “Never again” after the second world war. I also questioned what chance ethnic minority communities have in Europe if the xenophobic claims of ethnic superiority could prevail among white indigenous people who have been assimilated, integrated and lived together for hundreds of years. For me, Srebrenica demonstrates where the hatred and the dehumanisation of others can lead. Only when we reflect on those lessons can we truly strengthen our resolve to stand up to hatred in our own society.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
I welcome the debate and commend all those who called for it. I worked in Bosnia during and after the war, and visited the site of the Srebrenica memorial to the genocide of more than 8,000 people in July 1995.
My hon. Friend refers to saying, “Never again”. Does she agree that when we say “Never again”, we must demonstrate the commitment to keeping peace in the region, opposing genocide denial and opposing the Serb separatism of Milorad Dodik and other politicians, and take pride in the work our embassy has done to support the Srebrenica memorial and to support local organisations working for peace in the region?
Yasmin Qureshi
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to be vigilant. Especially in the western Balkans, as she has rightly said, issues of ethnic nationalism are arising, and the Serbians are trying to hide the fact that this event ever happened. I am grateful for the fact that the United Kingdom is the only European country to commemorate the Srebrenica genocide, although I will come later to the lack of resources and the funding cuts that have been made. I thank our Government and our country for recognising the event and for being the world leader in commemorating the Srebrenica genocide.
While much has been achieved in building a cohesive society in the UK, there is more work to be done. According to Home Office figures released last year, police recorded hate crime in England and Wales has risen consistently over the past several years. I know the Minister will agree that standing up to hatred and intolerance in the UK remains extremely necessary and should be a priority for Departments.
The Minister will be aware of the vital work done by the charity Remembering Srebrenica, which was set up 10 years ago with the support of the then Prime Minister, David Cameron. The charity has established 11 regions, as well as other bodies across the UK, and has gone from holding one memorial event at Lancaster House in 2013 to holding nearly 2,000 annual community actions in schools, town halls, mosques, synagogues, churches, community centres and police stations to bring communities together in a collective act of remembrance. Remembering Srebrenica has educated nearly 150,000 young people through its educational resource and teacher training programmes about Srebrenica, and has appointed community champions who work together to unite communities in order to work against hate and to build a safer, stronger community.
As part of the charity’s work to commemorate the genocide each year, it selects a theme that speaks to communities here in the UK. For 2023, the theme is “Together We Are One”, which is particularly potent when we remind ourselves that Bosnia and Herzegovina is well known for being a melting pot of cultures and identities in which Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived side by side for centuries. Many colleagues will know that the capital, Sarajevo, is known to have been the Jerusalem of Europe, and it is the only European city with a mosque, a Catholic church, an Orthodox church and a synagogue in the same neighbourhood.
However, after the break-up of Yugoslavia, nationalist leaders who played on identity politics rose to power across the region. Those ultra-nationalist forces promoted hatred and division with the agenda of creating a greater Serbia, but only with ethnically pure Serbs. One of the most well-known integrated societies in Europe imploded. The theme “Together We Are One” underlines why we have a responsibility to do everything we can to combat divisive rhetoric, by focusing on the things that unite us together as one.
This year’s theme also reminds us to remain vigilant against the forces of hatred that seek to “other” groups as being negatively different—the narrative of us and them, or where one group dehumanises and denies the humanity of another, and the dominant group is taught to see the target group as less than human and not belonging to their community or society.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
I thank the hon. Lady for securing this debate. It is less a debate and more a commemoration and recognition of the unity that we have in this Parliament never to forget what happened in Bosnia and Srebrenica. She makes the excellent point that there is a real danger of history repeating itself. Right now, our position towards the Balkans is not alert enough to the problems faced by Bosnian citizens.
Does the hon. Lady agree that we need to take three steps? First, we need to upgrade our resources in Bosnia, with more British troops available and on the ground, and through NATO. Secondly, we need to use Magnitsky sanctions on those perpetrating crimes in the area. Thirdly, we need to ensure that we do not cut funding to the Remembering Srebrenica group, which we have by 50%. After all, is an ounce of prevention not worth a pound of cure?
Yasmin Qureshi
I entirely agree. I know that the Minister does listen, so I hope she will take back to others in the Foreign Office the point about more spending and more resources in the western Balkans to ensure that we do not have any further eruptions there. I say gently that both the first world war and second world war started in that part of the world. That is important.
Remembering Srebrenica is the charity doing the most work on this matter, but, year on year, it has had funding cuts. I wrote to the Foreign Office and to the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to ask for funding, but that was sadly rejected. They—especially DLUHC—have responded by saying they are not going to make any change, which is a shame because this is an important cause. The only way in which so many people are finding out about this is because of the work done by Remembering Srebrenica on the memorial, through volunteers and others across the United Kingdom. It is very much volunteer-led, but it needs resources. After this debate, I hope that the Foreign Office will consider putting in some money and that, hopefully, it will talk to DLUHC to ask it to consider funding as well.
We know that polarisation and propaganda drive groups further apart, through deepening division. We saw that played out in the years leading up to the Srebrenica genocide in 1995. Non-Serbs had to mark their houses with white flags or wear an armband. There was a systematic and careful process of dehumanising Bosnian Muslims. Anti-Muslim propaganda was instrumental in Bosnian Serbs turning against their Bosnian Muslim neighbours, who were constantly referred to as “Islamic fundamentalists”.
That is why commemorating Srebrenica is so important, so that we can stop to reflect on our own society as well and help people in our country better understand the behaviours and influences around them, which can either build or damage the cohesion of communities. We need to help equip them with skills and confidence to challenge such behaviours, and dismantle the foundations that allow intolerance to survive. We must do more to encourage people to reflect on how we can create an environment that helps find common ground with people from different backgrounds, instead of focusing on a single facet of their identity.
The work that Remembering Srebrenica does across the country in Srebrenica Memorial Week, and throughout the whole year, empowers communities to actively challenge stereotypes, the scapegoating, hate speech and dehumanising language, and to counter that by working towards creating a society that is characterised by embracing our common humanity. It is a reminder of the role that each of us, irrespective of our background, has in us all coming together as one community against hatred and division. I look forward to hearing the Minister acknowledge some of the importance of that work in her remarks and I hope that DLUHC and the Foreign Office will consider funding the charity.
Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Every year when we reflect on the horrors of the Srebrenica genocide, we all reiterate our commitment to stamping out the Islamophobia, prejudice and intolerance that led to the murder of the 8,000 Muslim men and boys in 1995, yet we are witnessing the ethnic cleansing of Uyghur Muslims at the hands of the Chinese Government in Xinjiang, and the persecution of Muslims in Kashmir by the Indian Government. Does my hon. Friend agree that to avoid another Srebrenica happening in Xinjiang, Myanmar, Kashmir or elsewhere, the very real threat of Islamophobia must be taken seriously and tackled on a global scale?
Yasmin Qureshi
I thank my hon. Friend and I entirely agree. I do not normally criticise colleagues, but comments were made recently by a certain Home Secretary and she needs to reflect on what she says. Those kinds of things do not help in the situation we are facing.
The events in Srebrenica have stayed with me. Indeed, they have shaped me. A few years after the genocide, I worked for the United Nations mission in Kosovo to help to rebuild the justice system and department after the war. That region of the world is personal to me. I saw the after-effects 23 years ago, when I worked in Kosovo. That is part of the reason why I have dedicated so much of my work to challenge hate and division, and that is why I set up the all-party parliamentary group on Srebrenica, with the help of Baroness Sayeeda Warsi.
After the holocaust, we said “Never again”, yet what happened in Srebrenica proved that words are not enough—they must be met with action. As we approach the 28th anniversary of this harrowing tragedy, we must all come together to unite and reaffirm our commitment to challenging hate, wherever and whenever it arises, and to take actions so that things like Srebrenica never happen again.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert. I thank the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) and the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) for sponsoring and securing this important debate with me. It is particularly fitting that we are having this debate as the President of Bosnia is here in the UK today. I very much hope that the Prime Minister will meet him later this afternoon to show the UK’s steadfast commitment to Bosnia.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) said, we are here to commemorate; this is not a debate, but an occasion for us all to share our words of continued support for our friends. We remember the Srebrenica genocide and we pay our respects to the 8,000 men and boys who were murdered in cold blood by Bosnian Serb forces in 1995. They were massacred because of the ruthless ambition of Milošević and his cronies, men’s dreams of a greater Serbia and the hatred that lived in their hearts.
The memory of those who were stolen will never be forgotten, but the trauma of what women and those who survived went through remains today. That trauma reminds us why the region matters to us. It is not a region where people have forgotten and moved on. It is a region where people live, on a daily basis, waking up and knowing that they are not saying good morning to 27 or 28 members of their family.
The United Kingdom is the only country outside Bosnia and Herzegovina that commemorates this and has an official remembrance service, and I am so proud of that. This is the second year running that we have held this debate. That demonstrates our eternal commitment to remembering the victims, but I share the concerns of my hon. Friend’s concerns about the lack of funding for Remembering Srebrenica. We would never consider cutting funding to the organisations that commemorate the holocaust. Srebrenica is a genocide that took place in Europe, and people still live with it and remember it. It is a shame that a DLUHC Minister is not here to hear those comments, because that decision is absolutely wrong.
Anthony Mangnall
It is worth putting on the record the fact that funding has been cut from £200,000 to £100,000, so we are not asking for a great deal to ensure we debate this issue. It should come as a bit of a surprise that the funding cut has come at the same time as the Secretary of State’s office is being done up at the cost of £1 million.
Alicia Kearns
My hon. Friend’s point stands for itself. He has my wholehearted support.
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
I am delighted that so many people across the House are making the case for appropriately funding Remembering Srebrenica, but it is slightly worse than has been indicated: the funding was not just cut but did not materialise for a long time. I want to thank the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), who, in the brief period in which he was a Secretary of State, intervened to make the payment this time last year. The charity was relying on its reserves at that point. On a cross-party basis, we need to keep this story alive, support the charity and make sure its funding is not cut again. We need to be able to tell the stories, so the funding has to be increased to the previous level, and it needs to be provided in a timely manner.
Alicia Kearns
I agree entirely. Remembering Srebrenica does not just commemorate; as the right hon. Gentleman said, it tells stories to educate, and there has never been a more important time to educate people about what happened to the Balkans. I will come on to that point shortly.
We cannot discuss Srebrenica without discussing the Mothers of Srebrenica, who went through the most unimaginable loss. Their dignity and humanity are frankly astonishing, and their bravery and forgiveness are an example to us all, although when I meet them I struggle to understand the forgiveness they embrace in their daily lives. I wish I could take with me some of the power that they have in the way they express themselves.
After the Srebrenica genocide, two words were spoken around the world: never again. That was a sacred promise never again to allow innocent civilians to be displaced, raped, tortured and murdered, yet that is what we see in Xinjiang and Ukraine, and that is what I fear for the Balkans again. We secured international peace through the Dayton agreement, which was not easy or perfect—it locked in many of the ethnic divisions that we wish we could have eradicated—but it was preferable to war. For the past 28 years, it has represented peace.
Now Dayton and, by extension, peace are once again at risk in the Balkans. We once again see the cynical ambitions of Milošević’s cronies, dreams of greater Serbia and hatred in the hearts of leaders in that region. If we allow Dayton to be broken, we risk breaking that sacred promise. When we say, “Never again”, we mean it. That is what we need to see, but I fear the Government are repeating some of the mistakes of the 1990s, when our foreign policy was centred on Belgrade. A Belgrade-centric foreign policy will not work in the Balkans. An obsession with keeping Serbia on side, no matter what it does and regardless of its actions, intentions and words, does not work.
Regardless of our failure, we must stand strong. Not only did Serbia recently not stand with us on Ukraine, but it signed a foreign policy agreement with Putin in September. Why are we desperately running around behind somebody who embraces autocracy day after day? It is our democratic partners living up to the commitments we set that are vulnerable. We asked Bosnia and Kosovo to be democratic, follow EU accession and move towards NATO accession. They are doing that, yet we punish them with no punishment for Serbia. I will come on to that shortly, but we are currently being found wanting in deterrence diplomacy.
Milorad Dodik—I hesitate to call him the President of Republika Srpska—has made clear his intention to break the Dayton agreement and threaten the sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Although he has always been prone to exaggeration and theatre, his recent actions have unfortunately demonstrated meaningful intent. In the last two weeks, he has rejected the Office of the High Representative and the Constitutional Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina, saying that their judgments do not apply to all of Bosnia. Dodik is issuing the first direct challenge to almost 30 years of peace, and he plans to test the Dayton agreement over the coming year. We must make sure that he is not able to do that and that we stand firm.
Part of the reason why Dodik is lashing out is because he is desperate. The sanctions placed on him by the UK and the United States are biting, and I thank the Government for listening and putting in place a sanctions regime when we asked for it. Public servants and Republika Srpska will soon be protesting outside his office, because he promised pay rises five months ago that have not come. The fact that he can no longer raise money on the London stock exchange—another important UK diplomatic effort—means that he is getting desperate, but now I want the EU to withhold funds from Dodik. I want the EU to join us in sanctioning Dodik and fellow secessionists. France and Germany have taken some moderate, unilateral steps, but we need to take action together.
Dodik has shouted to anyone who would listen over the last few years about his relationships with Putin and Xi Jinping, which is why it is important that the Prime Minister meets the President of Bosnia today to show that we stand with democratic allies. What has happened in Ukraine, combined with Russia’s weakness and clear lack of strategy and foreign ability, has made Dodik more dangerous. Russia may seek to open a separate front in Europe, and the reality is that Dodik acts as a stooge to give Putin a chance of distraction. A war in Bosnia and Herzegovina would serve no one but Putin, and Dodik should know that if he dances to Putin’s tune, he is likely to end up in The Hague, just as Radovan Karadžić and others did.
Anthony Mangnall
I apologise for intervening, because my hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, using her expertise as the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. We must be absolutely unequivocal in Parliament and within the UK Government that we will not tolerate the undermining of Dayton or the redrawing of any part of Bosnia and Herzegovina’s borders. Can she make sure that, in her role as Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, she makes that point to the Government and, indeed, to the Prime Minister when she is in the Liaison Committee this afternoon?
Alicia Kearns
It is so important that if I make that point, I do so with the whole support of the House, so I thank hon. Members for attending today’s debate, because it gives me the ability to speak up and say that it is not just me saying this; the whole House wants to see this.
It is our job to make sure that we create the circumstances in which reckless decisions cannot be taken by Dodik and others. We must wrap Bosnia and Herzegovina in a protective blanket to make sure that the Balkans do not experience war again. The Government must rejoin the European Union force. Chile, Turkey and other countries that are not in Europe are part of EUFOR, and we must rejoin it. As a signatory to the Dayton peace agreement, a member of the Peace Implementation Council and a UN Security Council permanent member, we have a responsibility to stand by Bosnia, but that is not enough to guarantee peace.
We know that Russia holds a veto over EUFOR. Every single year, we in this place wait and see whether Putin will decide to act in the interests of peace or to support the idea of sovereignty through violence. So far, he has renewed the mandate, but this is not sustainable. Putin could refuse to renew it at any time, and we do not have the UN mandate in place to block him militarily. The Government need to work with allies to commit to a NATO military presence in key areas across Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly the Brčko district, which Dodik has plainly said in the last weeks that he will take by force if he has the opportunity. That is a legally mandated right in the Dayton agreement, and it would send a firm message that Bosnia’s territorial sovereignty is not up for debate and will not be taken by force. By joining EUFOR now and transitioning to a NATO-led peacekeeping mission, we can play our role in maintaining peace in Bosnia. We cannot afford to be reactive when peace is at stake.
I want to place on the record my personal commitment to the Office of the High Representative, which is the ultimate arbiter of peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Attacks against the office and role are designed to weaken the foundations of peace. This does not mean that we cannot criticise or critique individual decisions by the High Representative, but we must protect the institution itself, and I fear that Russian and secessionist propaganda are succeeding in undermining its role in Parliaments across Europe. As a House, we must stand behind that vital institution, because if the worst were to happen and we fail to live up to our sacred promise of “Never again”, there will be violence, not just in Bosnia, but across the Balkans.
Kosovo is critical, and the United Kingdom has a unique responsibility there. We need to call a spade a spade. What is currently happening in Kosovo is a result of foreign interference by Belgrade 18 months ago, when it committed foreign interference in Kosovo’s domestic elections. Belgrade told Kosovo Serbs not to participate in the elections. The elections were fair and free but did not have the attendance or participation that we wanted because Vučić told Kosovo Serbs not to take part.
If we then fast forward, we see mayors trying to take up their electoral positions, and the response is that western countries—the EU and the US worst of all—attack Kosovo for wanting to uphold the rights of mayors to go into their offices to do their job. We then saw a brutal attack by a Belgrade-backed, funded and armed militia on KFOR, with 26 military officers being severely wounded or hospitalised. The response was to criticise Kosovo: “How dare Kosovo have created this situation!” We know, however, that it was Belgrade-funded militias, and the situation was ultimately created by Belgrade when it said, “Do not participate in the elections.”
Worse still, we then saw Serbian counter-terrorism police go on to Kosovan territory and illegally kidnap—kidnap is always illegal under international law, yet apparently our allies did not recognise that—three Kosovan police officers, who were taken to Serbia. That is not allowed; it breaches all international law and specific agreements reached between Serbia and Kosovo. Finally, there was a response and we saw some balance: “Belgrade and Pristina must work to normalise, calm down and de-escalate.” However, Serbia was at fault, and there was no calling-out of the fact that it was arbitrary and illegal detention.
When Kosovo called on its mayors to take up their positions in the mayoral offices there was a great deal of response by the US Government. The US Government said, “Right, Kosovo, you are no longer allowed to participate in a scheduled military exercise We will no longer help you to be recognised by other countries. Good luck to you—you are not welcome in DC.” When Serbia kidnapped three Kosovan police officers, there was no punishment. In fact, Serbia took part in a military exercise with the US only a week later while the Kosovan police officers were still being held illegally. What message does that send to Kosovo, a democratic ally that has stood with and supported us on Ukraine, and done everything that we have asked of it? There were significant punishments from the US and the EU, which have now introduced sanctions against Kosovo, but nothing for Serbia.
When Serbia finally released the three police officers, it told Viktor Orbán in Hungary first and allowed him to announce it. I say to the EU, what message does it send when Victor Orbán is the person chosen by Serbia to send those messages? It is a failure of deterrence diplomacy and it is a disproportionate and unbalanced approach. The UK has an independent voice within the quint and the international arena to say no to the EU and the US. We can say to them, “You will allow us to take part in the peace talks in Kosovo, and you will not continue to take the approach that you currently are, because all you are doing is enabling the autocrats and, frankly, hitting our democratic allies with a stick.”
That is why the security picture is so severe. For too long we have failed to call out the armed Serb militias operating in the north of Kosovo. The Government are well aware, with the Fusiliers having only just returned from serving in KFOR, that there are weapons being smuggled across the border from Serbia into Orthodox churches in ambulances. When our troops become aware of that, and try to get permission to go and get them, the permissions take too long. By the time there is permission—quelle surprise—an ambulance has turned up at the church and taken all the weapons out again.
I will touch briefly on our export policies towards Serbia. I am gravely concerned about the fact that we are selling small ammunitions to Serbia. Given that the counter-terrorism police there carried out attacks and kidnapped three Kosovan police officers, how do we know that nothing we have sold to Serbia is being used in that context? I urge that a handbrake be put on all export sales to Serbia.
I call on the Government to make it clear that the United Kingdom stands by Kosovo’s territorial sovereignty and democracy. To do that, we need to expand KFOR’s mandate to ensure a more proactive approach to countering weapon smuggling and militias north of Kosovo. We need to ensure fairness and take the action required to operate a meaningful policy of deterrence diplomacy.
It is a critical moment in the Balkans. As we watched the cold-blooded murders of innocent Bosnians in 1995 we made a promise: never again. The Government must now wake up, take the initiative and ensure that sacred promise is honoured. They must recognise that the power to deter sits in this House and at King Charles Street. We can do this. I therefore urge the Government: let us rejoin EUFOR, let us commit NATO peacekeepers to Brčko district, let us transition to a NATO-led peacekeeping mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina, let us allow KFOR to take the front foot in anti-militia and anti-weapons smuggling operations in the north of Kosovo and finally, let us implement a more even-handed approach to Kosovo that prioritises the protection of Kosovan sovereignty and democracy.
I thank everyone who has spoken today, and I am grateful for being given the time to make those points. I will conclude by returning to the commemoration of all those who were massacred during the Srebrenica genocide. Their memory can never be forgotten, because this was a genocide in Europe and on European soil. It is a genocide that still marks our future, and my children’s future could still potentially be shaped by the actions that took place at that time. It is important we do everything we can in Parliament to take more people to Bosnia and Herzegovina. When you go, that country gets into your heart and your soul. I do not know how to describe it; I do not how to find the words. I will take another delegation of the Bosnia APPG next year, so I encourage all hon. Members to tell me who to reach out to.
Yasmin Qureshi
On the hon. Lady’s point about visiting the Srebrenica genocide memorial and how that affects people, I went there with a couple of my members of staff, and I have to say that they were so impacted by it. My office manager does not travel much and she started crying when she was there. She is a quite a hardened soul and I could see how much of an impact it had on her. I just wanted to confirm how going there impacts people.
Alicia Kearns
I thank the hon. Lady. I remember that my first visit to Srebrenica was with former British serving members of special forces who had not returned there since they had served in Bosnia. I saw the trauma in their faces, the pain and the knowing in them that there is a risk that violence could once more return to the places where they had hidden in a dugout for 10 days and seen children shot in the street by those who had hatred in their hearts. I took away from that experience that we could never ever allow that.
I thank the Mothers of Srebrenica and Remembering Srebrenica for all they do. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving us the time to discuss this matter. When we say “Never again”, we must mean it. The risk, if we do not, is far too great.
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert. It is also a pleasure to follow the Chairperson of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns). I thank her for her passion and wisdom on these matters. I also thank the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) for making sure that we secured this important commemoration. This is the first time I have been in Westminster Hall since 2017; while I was leader of the SNP, I was not permitted to be here. It is nice to be back, and to participate in something this important.
For many years, there has been a strong tradition of the third party in the House giving particular focus and priority to international causes and campaigns. In my years as the SNP’s Westminster leader, I was proud to follow that tradition, and my office continues to make an effort to engage with and reach out to international organisations and individuals who need and deserve the attention of the House of Commons. With all my experience of those organisations, though, I have no hesitation in saying that Remembering Srebrenica has been one of the most impressive and inspiring. That is why we need to take responsibility for funding the organisation appropriately.
Ever since I was elected as an MP, I have been lucky to enjoy a close working relationship with the dedicated volunteers involved in organising educational events, and events that commemorate the massacre. We must never forget, and never again should the events that we witnessed in 1995 happen on European soil. We Members of Parliament have an obligation to keep this alive, educate people and, yes, take action, as we need to now, to support our friends—our comrades—in that part of Europe.
Year after year, the work of the charity in Parliament and in communities right across these islands has made a real difference. Its work has never been more relevant. The long association that I have been lucky to have with the charity is why I am genuinely honoured to be one of its patrons. Over the past number of years, it has given me the opportunity to meet survivors of the genocide. I come away with paradoxical feelings from those very poignant meetings. On the one had, you are faced with the raw reality of man’s inhumanity, and an awareness of how it once again showed its terrible face in the acts of genocide in the Bosnian conflict, and most especially in Srebrenica. However, the other end of the human experience is equally on show in those meetings, as these survivors are the perfect demonstration of resilience, healing and, ultimately, hope. That is because despite all that they have suffered, they are still prepared to believe in and work for a world beyond the horrors that they were born into. That spirit is the essence of what makes the charity so powerful.
There can be few better examples of the grassroots movement than Remembering Srebrenica. A brief look at what it has achieved tells its own story. Since 2013, it has created a vibrant network in every part of these islands, helped by eight regional English boards, and by national boards in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. During that time, with its modest resources, it has educated no fewer than 180,000 young people about Srebrenica. It has also enabled more than 10,000 community actions to take place right across these islands each year, and created 1,450 community champions, each of them pledging to stand up to hatred and intolerance in their community.
The charity is not alone in its work, which is about a necessary and respectful remembrance of the past. It is making a positive contribution to shaping all our futures, which is why we should support it. Through its remembrance work, it ensures that prejudice does not take root in any of our communities. I am delighted that that ongoing mission is reflected in its theme for this year, which is “Together we are one”. That is a powerful message, but it is also a mission for building peace and reconciliation.
Of course, that theme is perfect for Bosnia and Herzegovina, which, as we heard, is renowned for being a melting pot of cultures and identities—a place where Muslims, Christians and Jews, among others, have lived side by side for centuries. Sarajevo is rightly known as the Jerusalem of Europe, being the only European city to have a mosque, a Catholic church, an Orthodox church and a synagogue in the same neighbourhood. We all know just how badly this theme, and a focus on genuine community building, nation building and peacebuilding, is needed right now. More than anything else, this charity understands that remembrance and commemoration is not a passive act. Instead, it is a determination that the horrors of the past will never be repeated. There is so much that we need to remember; if we fail to remember it, it can be, and sadly will be, repeated.
Of course, we remember the 100,000 Muslims who were murdered in Bosnia. I repeat: 100,000 Muslims were murdered in Europe in living memory. We also remember the displacement of 2 million people, and the genocidal rape of up to 50,000 women, simply because of their Muslim identity. That happened in Europe in living memory, and 28 years on, the horror remains as raw as ever. That rawness is exactly why we must remember. In this commemoration, we are all very conscious that we are remembering those horrific events of 28 years ago. Sadly, violence, repression and war have returned to Europe. We had hoped that we would never see such things again in our lifetime, but sadly they are here again. War is again scarring our continent and our people. As we remember Srebrenica, our thoughts are ever with the people of Ukraine and the suffering that has been inflicted on them.
I want especially to say this: after the horrors of Srebrenica, the International Criminal Court was rightly the forum where those who inflicted the genocide were prosecuted and sentenced. All of us need to ensure that the war crimes in Ukraine, and the war criminal in the Kremlin who is sanctioning them, are brought before The Hague too. That is the justice that needs to be done, and the justice that the Ukrainian people deserve.
Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman is giving a very good speech. He is talking really about the modern-day relevance to us of having staying power in Ukraine. I remember, as a young Foreign Office lawyer, negotiating the UN-UK sentence enforcement agreement for the Balkans in 2004. We had to wait until 2021 for Radovan Karadžić to be sentenced and transferred to a UK jail. Does he agree that we will need to show the same strategic patience in Ukraine and the other areas of the world still haunted by genocide?
Ian Blackford
I am saddened to say that the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The lesson from Bosnia for what we are witnessing in Ukraine, and the message to us and every one of our allies, is that we have to be in this for the long haul. We must leave no stone unturned in our support for the Ukrainian people, so that they can defeat the aggressor on their shore. That message about the lessons, and the sense of responsibility that we all have, must go out. I rue the fact that we cannot do more. And yes, my God, those responsible must be held to account for their crimes against humanity.
I thank the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton, for shining a light on what is going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina. There has been an increase in tensions there since 2021, and we must remain vigilant to preserve peace and stability. There must be no return to conflict. The EU has doubled its peacekeeping forces since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I regret that, the UK having left the EU, we are not part of that peacekeeping effort. There must be a UK-EU security pact, so that we can work together and assist in negotiations.
I will conclude on this point. Despite all the lessons of history, we still far too often forget what we need to remember. Grassroots charities such as Remembering Srebrenica can help political leaders to do so much better. They can keep at the forefront of our mind the consequences of conflict, and stop us ever again going down the path that leads to the inhumanities and outrages that were inflicted on the people of Srebrenica. Those charities not only deserve but need our support. The UK Government have to go the extra mile in fully funding Remembering Srebrenica. I hope that all of us live up to the need to provide that support in the coming months and years.
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
It is a humbling experience to listen to colleagues’ contributions, and to speak in this debate. I was 12 when Srebrenica happened. One of my earliest memories of the news is of watching the news about Srebrenica with my mum, who was completely glued to it, and who tried to explain the horrors of what was happening to us children. Not long after that, I visited the fields of world war two in France on a school trip, and the graves of my ancestors—my gran’s uncles—who were killed in that conflict.
I would very much like to take up the offer made by the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns). Bearing witness is one of the most important things that we can do, not just as parliamentarians, but as human beings. I thank the Backbench Business Committee and particularly the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), as well as the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), for supporting this debate and bringing to life the importance of not just bearing witness and remembering, but taking those lessons forward. As many have said, given the war crimes that Russia is visiting on the people of Ukraine, and what is being done in Myanmar, China and Ethiopia, the sad reality is that we do not appear to be learning the lessons of Srebrenica, and of the past.
The hon. Member for Bolton South East made a number of points about the genocide that hit home. It was neighbours against neighbours, and friends against friends. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber spoke, as did others, about the melting pot of cultures in Bosnia and Herzegovina—Muslims, Christians and Jews, among others, were working and living together in peace. That is the kind of society that we should all aspire to live in. The hon. Member for Bolton South East spoke about the dangers of othering minority groups. I have to say that in the UK Parliament, in 2023, we see some of that, directed against minority groups across the UK and beyond. Sadly, we see imported bigotry and hatred coming across the pond from the US, and seeping into the media in the UK. We must draw the line, and understand that what is happening today is potentially a repeat of what has happened in the past. We must all be alive to that. She also spoke about the diversity of the communities involved.
The hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), who is not in his place any more, intervened to point out how vital preventive funding is, and how important the full implementation of the Magnitsky principles is, as many of us said, to quell money laundering, which fuels dictators. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton made the important point that there are murderous dictators across the world. We must be alive to that, and take real action on it.
We should provide proper funding. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber spoke about the importance of the grassroots charity Remembering Srebrenica, and about the work that he has done with it. That will strike a chord with many. If we pull funding from such organisations, we run the risk of not properly educating the next generation, who will not remember the images on the television; for them, the events will not be real. He talked about the 180,000 people who have been educated through Remembering Srebrenica. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton was reminded, in an intervention, of the cut in funding from £200,000 to £100,000. I hope that the Minister hears that.
We have a proud history of this kind of work, not just in Scotland but across the UK. Between 1992 and 1996, during the conflict in Bosnia, the Scottish Refugee Council evacuated around 400 Bosnian refugees, and opened a reception centre in Scotland; the refugees were welcomed into our communities, and across the UK. I say gently to the Minister that we must reflect on the work done then, and why that work must continue for those fleeing conflict who seek refuge.
The SNP would like the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to publish a new cross-departmental strategy on preventing mass atrocities. That new strategy should be implemented in consultation with civil society and relevant experts. I pay tribute to all those who briefed us for this debate, and who work in this area, but they can do that work only if they are properly funded, and if we engage with them fully. We should also clarify what training tools and methods can be used to prevent atrocities, including the UK’s new sanctions regime. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton talked about that; she speaks with authority as Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. We need to demonstrate and formalise how the UK will act in concert with like-minded international partners, particularly the United States.
We want the introduction of a new atrocity prevention toolkit that provides day-to-day guidance for those at UK posts and desks. It would support them in raising the alarm in a crisis. From my work on deaths abroad, I know about the challenges that our consular and embassy staff face. I have worked in a foreign mission for the US, and have seen the importance of the work that foreign missions do. We need to make sure that our staff on the ground are fully funded and trained, so that they can raise the alarm and can work with international partners.
Alicia Kearns
Before my election. I lobbied the Government to create an atrocity prevention centre. They have now done so, and we have the conflict centre—I do not mind the different name, as long as it does the work. It is doing some really interesting work, particularly on Ukraine. The point is that the desk officer for Mongolia has no training on what to do if they start to see the signs of genocide or ethnic cleansing—for example, if they see controls that could escalate put on ways of life or on language. It is really important that the centre is fully activated, so that when an officer anywhere in the world has the slightest inkling that something is happening, they can go to the centre, which can say, “This is how we bring in the multilaterals, and how we produce sanctions. This is the conflict, stability and security fund programme that we can put in place.” That is not happening yet, so we need to make sure that the centre is fully embraced.
Hannah Bardell
That is an incredibly powerful point. It is easy for Opposition Members to criticise, and to say, “This needs to be done better, and we need more money.” The truth is that we have a genuine desire to get into the detail of how consular officers are trained and funded, how the work is done, and how we ensure that the centre and its resources are available, as the hon. Member says, because that is the first line of defence in many situations.
I will not detain the Chamber any longer, because we have important Front-Bench speeches to come. I simply say: together we are one, and working on that is incredibly important. We must make sure that this generation and the next not only learn the lessons but put them into action, so that we can change the narrative. As I said at the beginning of my contribution, a tide of increased funding for the right wing is seeping into our media. If we want to be international leaders and set an international example, we must get our house in order.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairpersonship, Sir Robert. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) for securing this important debate, and I thank Members from across the House for this thoughtful and considered debate, in which important views have been expressed. There has been unity in remembering the genocide and wanting to learn its lessons for today. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Putney (Fleur Anderson), and for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan), for their interventions.
We heard strong speeches from the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), and from the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). They talked about not only what happened, but what is needed today across the western Balkans. This House is at its best when we speak with one voice and in defence of core values. Despite political differences, we all share the values of democracy and stability, a commitment to preventing conflict and atrocities, and the defence of fundamental human rights.
I want to re-emphasise the words of the Leader of the Opposition, who said that we need to use Srebrenica Memorial Day
“and the memory of Srebrenica to not only remember those we have lost but to educate…future generations, bring our communities together and renew our efforts to tackle hatred and prejudice wherever they lie.”
Heeding those words is integral to forging a lasting peace in the western Balkans. I want to emphasise that that is a priority for me and our team, and would be for a future Labour Government. So too would be resolutely standing up for Dayton, and standing against those who would seek to undermine it.
I have visited the region extensively in the past and continue to engage with the views and perspectives of people across Bosnia to understand how we better promote dialogue and ensure regional security. We will be taking part in meetings this week. The shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), is meeting the President of Bosnia today to listen directly to him.
I recognise the significance of the historic role that the UK and its armed forces played in working to secure a stable Bosnia and stability across the western Balkans more generally. The horrors of the 1990s are ingrained in the mind of many people across the country and across the House, particularly our armed forces personnel who served, such as members of my own family. I have visited Srebrenica, and I have met Remembering Srebrenica and Mothers of Srebrenica, which was one of the most profound experiences I have had while a Member of the House. Owing to my past career, I have engaged with many people who suffered in war and conflict and in horrific situations, but visiting the factory at Potočari, visiting the memorial, and in particular meeting a survivor of my own age, was a profound experience.
I remember the week the massacres happened. I was on a beach in west Wales with my friends, having a wonderful time during a holiday from school—my first trip away from home. The survivor of my own age whom I met told me that he was loaded into the back of a truck, and that all the other men in the truck were shot; he survived among a pile of bodies, rolled into a ditch and, heavily wounded, managed to escape into the forest. He has never forgotten not only the tragic loss of his family and friends, but the terrible experience he had. For me, there was such a stark contrast between my holiday and the war and the atrocities that were happening just over a thousand miles away in our own continent. Today, I think of the horrors we are seeing in Ukraine. I will never forget my visit, and I thank Remembering Srebrenica, Mothers of Srebrenica and all those who seek to educate us and warn us of those experiences.
Hannah Bardell
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that incredibly powerful contribution. I have been a member of the Council of Europe for nearly six years, and one of the Council’s most powerful events was Mothers of Srebrenica talking to us and sharing their experiences. I am proud that we continue to be members of the Council of Europe and proud that the Council continues to support that work.
Stephen Doughty
I absolutely agree, and we should reflect not only on those who were murdered during the atrocities, but on those who suffered terrible sexual violence and rape, who have rightly been mentioned. We must remember that utterly horrific history.
This year’s campaign theme for Remembering Srebrenica is “Together We Are One”, and we need to highlight the fact that the conditions for genocide are built on a climate and a culture that allow hatred and extremism to breed, resulting in the dividing and fracturing of communities in this country, across Europe and across the world. We know that flourishing hatred and extremism can escalate from inflammatory rhetoric to attacks, persecution and, indeed, extermination, as we have seen in Bosnia, Rwanda, Ukraine and so many other conflicts around the world. We must combat that divisive rhetoric by focusing on the things that unite us as one.
I think of our dear friend and much missed colleague, Jo Cox, whom we have remembered in recent weeks. In our past careers with Oxfam, Jo and I worked on issues related to the terrible atrocities in Darfur, and here in Parliament we worked on issues related to Syria. The message that we have more in common and that we must work together is critical, and we must reflect on it.
The remains of more than 1,000 victims of Srebrenica are still unaccounted for. We must support families and others achieve a lasting closure, so I welcome the important identification work that is being done.
The war in Bosnia resulted in close to 100,000 civilians being killed, 2 million forced displacements and, as many colleagues have mentioned, the systematic rape of up to 50,000 women because of their ethnic and religious identity. If we fail to learn the lessons of atrocity prevention and, indeed, of investigating, prosecuting and bringing to justice those responsible, we will have made a grave mistake. Again, I think of Ukraine and what we need to learn in relation to that terrible situation.
Today, we see forces across Europe, and indeed across the western Balkans, seeking to sow disharmony, spread acrimony and stir up tensions. I pay tribute to the work of our envoy, Lord Peach, and of the EU’s High Representative in Bosnia, Christian Schmidt, who worked to prevent a return to the atrocities of the past. The work of the High Representative continues to warn of the real prospect of a return to conflict in the region. We have heard about the behaviour of Milorad Dodik, and indeed Russian attempts to aggravate already tense political circumstances.
On Saturday, we saw the High Representative annul two laws that the Bosnian Serb Parliament had adopted but that defied the constitution and the terms of the peace deal that ended the war in the 1990s. The High Representative concluded that:
“Recent decisions by the National Assembly of Republika Srpska directly violate the constitutional order of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Dayton peace agreement”.
It is crucial that the Government work with the High Representative and, through Lord Peach, support his efforts to prevent a return to the darkness of the past. Will the Minister outline what support we are giving the High Representative and what recent meetings Lord Peach has had with him, given the importance of maintaining the integrity of Bosnia’s institutions, particularly after recent events?
Let me be clear that those seeking to undermine stability in Bosnia must face consequences. We will continue to support the targeted measures that the Government have introduced, including sanctions. I would be grateful if the Minister set out her assessment of the effectiveness of the sanctions levelled to date. What discussions has she had with officials across the western Balkans on how we can exert further diplomatic pressure on those who are attempting to undermine the Dayton agreement and the constitutional settlement in Bosnia?
Will the Minister also say a little about outside attempts to influence the situation? We know that Dodik and Putin, and many of their aiders and abetters, share the same goals: they want to strengthen the Serbian-Russian alliances, extend Russian influence in the Balkans, block Bosnia from securing membership of the European Union and NATO and undermine the legitimacy of state institutions that have preserved the delicate balance of peace. We see huge Russian disinformation operations in the region, including in Bosnia and Serbia, and of course Kosovo and elsewhere, which the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton, the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, mentioned. Does the Minister share those concerns? What are we doing to support local partners to combat disinformation and all those seeking to undermine stability and peace? Will she respond to the comments that were made about military support in the region, where that is from NATO, the EU forces, or directly from UK armed forces, and say what steps we are taking both to ensure stability now and to prepare for the situation worsening?
Today, let us reflect on Srebrenica, the lives lost and how the aggravation of ethnic tensions led to appalling evil that should never be forgotten or repeated. There are those who still deny the scale of the atrocities that occurred in the war in Bosnia and those who have avoided justice. One of the most powerful ways to hold those individuals to account is to remember Srebrenica, pay tribute to the lives lost, tell victims’ stories and ensure that the future does not come to replicate the past.
Once again, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East for bringing forward this debate, and all hon. Members for their thoughtful and powerful contributions.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
I thank the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) for securing this debate. I pay tribute to her work as the co-chair of the APPG for Srebrenica.
What happened in Srebrenica was one of the worst atrocities to take place in Europe since the end of the second world war. As all hon. Members have said, we must never forget it, and we must continue to learn the lessons from it. I know that the Minister for Europe would have been pleased to be here to reply to this debate, but he is travelling abroad. I am conscious that I can never do these appalling events justice by setting out our perspectives and the efforts we make in response to, but it is an honour to reply on this debate on behalf of the Government and to reiterate our collective horror at genocide and all that we will continue to do to keep that front and centre.
I am very grateful to all the hon. Members who have contributed to today’s discussion and will do my best to respond to the points raised. Hon. Members have highlighted the continuing educational work of the charity Remembering Srebrenica, which does incredibly important and effective work. I can confirm to hon. Members that FCDO officials are in contact with DLUHC on the questions of funding, so I will ask the Minister for Europe to update colleagues when he is able to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) raised a number of important questions on the issues of export controls to Serbia and whether the UK should provide support to EUFOR. I assure hon. Members again that we will respond in a timely manner on those issues.
The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) asked a number of questions about Lord Peach’s activities and meetings. I do not have the answers to those questions, but I will ensure that we provide full answers to him and other Members in due course.
This week is the commemoration of the Srebrenica genocide, in which, as colleagues have said, more than 8,000 people were murdered and more than 20,000 were driven from their homes. We honour the memory of those killed and we pay tribute to the extraordinary courage and resilience shown by their families and by survivors. We stand with those families in their ongoing fight for justice. I am proud that the UK is one of the few countries that commemorate the genocide at national level, due to the commendable work of Remembering Srebrenica UK. I confirm that the Minister for the Armed Forces will be hosting the national Srebrenica Memorial Day ceremony this evening at Lancaster House.
As we consider the events of 28 years ago, our thoughts must turn to the current situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We have seen real progress since 1995 and many years of reform. Politicians across the country, including those from Republika Srpska, have worked together to create important institutions, including the armed forces and the tax authorities. The new state-level Council of Ministers has demonstrated energy and commitment to making further progress, recognising that reforms are required to strengthen democratic processes, to tackle corruption and to bring economic benefits to all the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The European Union’s decision to award candidate status in December 2022 has given important impetus to those efforts. The UK stands behind the Council of Ministers. We will use all the diplomatic, defence and economic tools at our disposal to support Bosnia and Herzegovina’s progress towards the strong, stable and prosperous future to which its people aspire and which they deserve.
It is regrettable that we continue to see divisive and dangerous nationalist rhetoric, threats of secession and open challenges to the constitutional order established by the Dayton peace agreement. The UK is committed to a single sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina and we will continue to take action in support of that. We welcome and fully support the High Representative’s actions on 1 July, including his decision to prevent the Republika Srpska legislation that represented a flagrant attack on Dayton and the constitutional order that it created. The High Representative’s executive powers remain a crucial tool for protecting the sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina, strengthening the rule of law and advancing stability and judicial independence. Those people who perpetrate instability and undermine peace do not speak for the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There are many Bosnians who want to build a more inclusive and cohesive society, one that leaves the divisions of the past behind. The UK supports them and will continue to those efforts.
We work in partnership with the Srebrenica Memorial Centre to develop its operational capacities. With our support, it is establishing itself as a world-leading centre for research into preventing genocide and a hub for reconciliation and inter-ethnic dialogue across the region. The British ambassador to Sarajevo will represent the Government at the annual commemoration at Srebrenica on 11 July.
We are supporting organisations in Mostar to bring citizens together and to create public spaces that are accessible and welcoming to all. We are helping the city to develop sustainably so that all its citizens can prosper in the long term. As well as helping to create inclusive, physical spaces, we are also assisting the creation of a safer and more pluralistic online and media environment; we are empowering people to recognise and object to the lies and divisive narratives that can foster hatred, and supporting independent media to create new material that challenges those insidious stories. We are bolstering the capacity of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Press Council, helping local media to lead the fight against disinformation by developing fact-checking procedures that spot it and limit its publication.
Furthermore, we are working with political parties, media and civil society organisations to decrease the use of hate speech in political discourse. When politicians seek to exploit existing divisions or drive in deeper wedges for their own gain, they are moving Bosnia and Herzegovina further away from being the safe place its citizens deserve. They are making it less stable and creating a climate of fear and instability.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton will be pleased to know that the Prime Minister hopes to meet the President later today to reiterate the sentiments and continuing commitment of the UK to these important stages of progress. Rejecting hate speech and demonstrating that commitment is only one part of building a brighter, more united Bosnia and Herzegovina and healing the fractures caused by conflict. We also continue to urge political leaders to condemn any glorification of the perpetrators of war crimes and to take action against genocide denial.
Alicia Kearns
I thank my right hon. Friend for setting out some of the areas in which the UK is investing to help Bosnia and Herzegovina to build its resistance—I recognise that that is in her brief. I remember writing the conflict, stability and security fund programme for Bosnia and Herzegovina in 2017. Unfortunately, the challenges remain, which suggests that either I did a very bad job, or the challenges were more significant than we realised.
In the list of programmes, there was very little about what we are doing to deter Belgrade. I know that that is not the Minister’s area, so I cannot ask her to answer the question directly, but this goes back again to the fact that we have a Belgrade-centred western Balkans policy. When we talk about Bosnia and Kosovo, we should also talk about what we are doing to deter Belgrade. It would be helpful to understand what we are doing on that point.
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
If I may, I will ask my colleague the Minister for Europe to meet the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee to discuss that in more detail. In all foreign policy and diplomacy, there is a continuum, not a fixed point. I shall ensure that that meeting is set up.
What happened at Srebrenica was unequivocally a genocide. Two international courts—the UN international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and the International Court of Justice—have both ruled that Srebrenica was a genocide, after exhaustive legal processes. Denial of that fact only punishes the survivors and the families of the victims and keeps them from finding justice and solace. Moreover, if there is to be true and lasting reconciliation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and if Bosnians are to build a society in which everyone feels safe, welcome and able to succeed, there needs to be acknowledgment of the facts of the conflict, and willingness to accept the wounds that have been caused.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton raised the question of UK efforts on atrocity prevention more widely, in Sudan and Nigeria. I can tell the House that the mass atrocity prevention hub was launched in September, and has been developing into a central co-ordination point for Government on atrocity prevention. It has now established a number of relationships with thematic and geographic teams across the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. The hub is also working with partners to understand what best practice in atrocity prevention looks like, in order to develop centralised guidance and tools to support those teams, to build capacity and to embed atrocity prevention work. My hon. Friend raised how that can reach those working in every country, so that they have the chance to feed in, spot and be supported in the work they do across our embassies. I know the team will take that away to consider more fully.
As we reflect on a crime of the horror and magnitude of Srebrenica and the deep scars it continues to leave 28 years later, we can come to only one conclusion: we must do all we can to ensure something so terrible is never allowed to happen again. We owe it to the victims to create societies that are stable, inclusive and cohesive, and to fight against prejudice, hatred, fear and division, wherever we find them. That is how we will show that Srebrenica will never be forgotten.
Yasmin Qureshi
I thank all right hon. and hon. colleagues for taking part in the debate, including those who had to go because of other parliamentary business. I also thank the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, for sharing my efforts to get this debate.
I also want to put on record my particular thanks to the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), because he might not be here for next year’s commemoration, as he is stepping down. From the beginning, when he because the leader of the SNP at Westminster and I approached him about this subject, he has been an absolutely tremendous supporter. It is fair to say that he was initially the only leader at Prime Minister’s Questions who would commemorate or refer to the Srebrenica genocide. I thank him from the bottom of my heart for all the support and everything he has given to the all-party parliamentary group on Srebrenica.
Ever since the fantastic Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee has been in that role, we have worked very well together. The hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) and I worked closely on another campaigning APPG—the all-party parliamentary group on hormone pregnancy tests, which dealt with Primodos. I have also worked well with my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty). When I approached the Minister for another campaign, her response was absolutely sterling and fantastic, and I thank her for replying to the debate today. I take heart from what she said about what the Government will do about what is happening in the Balkans. She also said she is looking at the funding. Remembering Srebrenica does work throughout the country, and we would not be here if its funding had not been cut over a number of years, so I hope the Minister will help it.
I am grateful to all Members for their support. As we say, it must never happen again.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered Srebrenica Memorial Week.
A5036 Park Lane Footbridge Replacement
(10 months, 1 week ago)
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Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the replacement of the A5036 Park Lane footbridge.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Robert. Let me say to the Minister that if he were in my position and this matter affected his constituency, he would do exactly what I am doing today; namely, proselytising for an issue that is of deep concern to my constituents.
The A5036 is the main road leading down to the port of Liverpool. It is a very busy road, with tens of thousands of vehicles going to and fro, 24 hours a day, amounting to about 40,000 vehicles a day. That is an awful lot of vehicles. At a particular point in the cycle, at around 3 or 4 o’clock in the afternoon, there may be something like 2,500 or 2,600 vehicles going to and fro along a stretch of about 2.5 miles. There are various junctions along that stretch and one of the main ones, which is very busy in terms of interaction with pedestrians, is the Park Lane junction with Dunnings Bridge Road, which is part of the A5036.
On the corners of that junction, we have a church, a primary school, a hotel, a social services centre and some football pitches. For as long as anyone can remember, we have had a footbridge that takes people safely from one side to the other of that major road with those thousands of vehicles, 13% of which are heavy goods vehicles. However, over the years, as such infrastructure goes, the footbridge became less robust and needed to be repaired and renewed. There was an acceptance, as far back as 2017 or perhaps earlier, that the footbridge needed to be replaced and brought up to date to meet modern standards with respect to health and safety and to accessibility for disabled people using motorised units and so on.
National Highways—it was Highways England at the time—acknowledged that really needed to be done, and it came up with three options: a “do nothing” option, a “do minimum” option and a “do something” option. I will not go into them all but, in effect, the preferred option was to provide a new footbridge. Some of the land nearby would have to be purchased, possibly via compulsory purchase, and an application went in for that. Some would be purchased from the local authority, some from a private owner and some from Our Lady of Walsingham Church—the school is directly attached to the church; the road runs directly parallel to the school and the church—and that, in effect, was agreed.
As early as 18 October 2017, a public consultation was held at Our Lady of Walsingham School, and it was agreed that the preferred solution should be option B: to replace the footbridge with a modern structure, as I described. That appears to have been what was agreed. National Highways went off and, in 2022, deposited some documents in public in relation to the compulsory purchase of the land. So as late as August or September 2022, which is less than a year ago, everything was on track. There had been some delays—surprise, surprise—because of covid. However, I and everybody in the area—the thousands of people who use the footbridge every day, including hundreds of children—were quite happy that there was going to be a replacement footbridge.
In October 2022, a lorry crashed into the bridge, which had to be closed after becoming even more dangerous and even less functional. The footbridge, which for decades—as I said, as long as anyone can remember—had been on a very busy junction for pedestrian-vehicle interaction, disappeared. There is now an opportunity: the bridge has been knocked down, so that cost has already been taken into account. Let us push on and get our new bridge. Job done—everybody will be happy. I will be happy, the school will be happy, the church will be happy, the hotel will be happy and, more importantly, the residents will be happy and their children even happier, because they will not have to cross a busy road, which is three lanes wide at points. In a way, it is serendipity that the bridge was crashed into.
Having agreed that we were going to have a new bridge, National Highways decided, after the bridge had been damaged and knocked down—potentially because of costs, but I am not absolutely sure, because the cost of replacing the bridge had already been set out in its “Statement of Reasons” report of 28 September 2021, which I have before me—that it was going to rethink whether there was an alternative method of people getting across the very busy road.
I understand that National Highways is not saying that it will not replace the footbridge, but there is a terrible suspicion, rightly or wrongly, that that is the case. I am sure the Minister will appreciate—he would appreciate it if it were in his constituency, although I am not pointing my finger at him—that people are thinking, “What’s so different now, given the massive use of the bridge?” Other junctions are less challenging, but the accident rate along that stretch of road is not the best. I could talk about the figures, but I hope the Minister will take me at my word that there have been accidents along that route for a whole variety of reasons, so everyone was perplexed by the step back from replacing the bridge.
One of the suggestions as part of the options appraisal was for a pelican crossing-type thing. Everyone was a bit concerned that, on a road of that width, that would not be practical and that it would be psychologically challenging for many people, especially children and parents with prams going to the school or coming back from church. From what I can tell from the documentation, although I am happy to be corrected, the assessment was that such a crossing would have a deleterious effect on the traffic flow—in effect, we would have a junction going four ways—given the significant number of people who need to use the junction to go to school and so forth, so a bridge would be required. That is what the options appraisal said: “Let’s have the bridge, because the alternative—a pelican crossing-type scheme—would impact the free flow of traffic.” In effect, that is what the report said. Again, the case for a new bridge is fairly compelling.
Then, lo and behold, National Highways decided that it would pull away from that and begin another consultation process, which apparently may take until the end of the year. No one has been consulted in any substantive way—I think some letters have gone out—but people have not changed their minds. It is quite clear that people locally do not want a pelican crossing across a major road.
Another piece of context is that, as the Minister knows, National Highways has consulted about a potential new road through Rimrose Valley, which would effectively replace the A5036. It is a bit more complicated than that, but in effect it would be an alternative. There is massive opposition to that, but there is obviously a recognition that the A5036 needs work doing to it in one way or another to make it more accessible to traffic, safer for pedestrians and so on, to the extent that National Highways wants to build an alternative road, which would cost the best part of £300 million and maybe £350 million, according to the latest estimates. That shows that National Highways recognises that something needs to be done.
There are all sorts of arguments about the alternatives to that, but that is not for today. Today’s debate is about a bridge across an existing very busy road—one of the busiest out there, I suspect—in an area that is full of people who would use it. For the life of me I do not know why National Highways cannot just acknowledge that it has done an assessment and an analysis, it has come up with options, and it has finalised an option—a new bridge. No one can comprehend why we are in this situation. I find it very difficult to explain why there has been a step back. I suspect that if we had not had covid, the bridge would most probably be there.
Everybody is very worried. The junction appears pretty safe, but why? Because it had a footbridge, which everybody used. People very rarely cross the road, because it is a potentially very dangerous junction. I push and push that point because the number of accidents around the junction is fairly minimal. There may be collisions between cars, but collisions with people are pretty rare. That speaks volumes—it is because people used the footbridge.
There is a compelling case for the footbridge, but now we are told that it may not be built—it will go to consultation—because it is more expensive than set out in the 2021 document, which stated:
“The approximately £3.5m scheme has been allocated £1.8m funding from the Designated Funds (Integration) and £1.7m from the Capital Structures Renewals budgets for delivery of the Works.”
It seems to me that that figure has clearly gone up. I do not know what it is now; perhaps the Minister will be able to tell me. It may have gone from £3.5 million to £4 million or £4.5 million—I do not know.
However—I say this with the best intentions—I cannot be too concerned with that at this stage. We had a bridge for decades. It was safe, people felt safe, and it gave access both ways across the main road to the school and all the other facilities. It is the best way to ensure the flow of traffic, given that 40,000 vehicles a day go through the junction and, at peak time—about 3 or 4 o’clock in the afternoon—about 2,500 vehicles whip back and forth across it. That is an awful lot. I did some calculations: 2,500 or 2,600 vehicles in an hour is virtually one every second. That is a vast number of vehicles going to and fro.
That is why I am quite exercised about the bridge. I cannot understand why we cannot get on with it. Everybody accepts that there should be one. People were settled that there was going to be a new footbridge. People are concerned about their children. I do not say that to frighten anyone; that is the reality. People felt safe with the bridge that had been there for so long. The new bridge has been assessed, and that was National Highways’ own plan. As far as I am aware, it has bought the land, but if it has not done so, it is available because it has gone through the process and the land is still owned by the local authority, the church and a private owner.
There is no opposition to the proposal; quite the opposite. Will the Minister please take this back to National Highways and tell it that we have had all the assessments, options appraisals and consultations we need? Do we really have to go through this again? Do we have to wait yet again, for another six, 12 or 18 months, for a decision to be made? Everyone—me, my constituents, the school, the church—will push and push, and we will not stop until the bridge is built. I hope the Minister gets the anxiety, tension and concern of residents, who want to get this matter sorted out. Everybody will be happy if we can move it on. If we do not, the unhappiness and resentment will persist. I ask the Minister to intervene and move this matter on as soon as possible for the sake of my constituents.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Richard Holden)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert. I thank the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd) for securing this debate on the replacement of the A5036 Park Lane footbridge. He is absolutely right that if it were in my constituency, I would be doing exactly the same as him. I have been doing this with the A689 in my constituency; we are looking at road safety measures at Crook and various other places where we have speeding issues. He is obviously doing his job as a constituency MP absolutely to the letter.
I will make a couple of general points before I address the issues the hon. Gentleman raised. Good transport connections are key to ensuring that road users use our transport network safely. They play a crucial role in supporting productivity, innovation and economic growth across the country. We have provided a series of devolution deals to mayoral combined authorities to ensure that transport connectivity maximises economic growth and supports thriving communities. The Government are fully committed to delivering our vision of levelling up the British economy, strengthening the bonds of our cities and unlocking England’s economic potential, particularly through the northern powerhouse, while ensuring that the Liverpool city region and the north of England play a key role in a resurgent economy.
As the hon. Gentleman said, the A5036 is an urban two-lane dual carriageway that widens out into three lanes at the current signal control junction at Park Lane and Park Lane West. It is the main access road to the port of Liverpool. We have had many discussions and debates about its potential. To the west of the junction, there was a pedestrian footbridge, which was the only crossing facility over the A5036 in the vicinity of the junction. As he said, it was at the heart of the community. National Highways was considering options for its removal as part of a broader look at structures that have been on our roads for decades and perhaps need upgrading or replacing. As he knows, the bridge was struck in October 2022 by an HGV, which resulted in its demolition, as it was deemed unsafe to try to patch it up.
Following that incident, the first priority of National Highways was to ensure that crossings could still be maintained on the road, so it installed a temporary, signal-controlled crossing for access to the west of the junction, next to the existing bus stops. National Highways has now completed the replacement of this initial crossing solution, with a signal-controlled toucan crossing for cyclists and pedestrians that has enabled the removal of the traffic management measures and temporary speed limits. That is a temporary solution, but because of the volume of traffic on the road, including the number of HGVs, it has been constructed to a permanent standard. However, National Highways accepts that the current arrangements have resulted in most pedestrians taking a detour from their usual routes in order to use the new crossing.
As I said, prior to the incident, National Highways had been considering options for replacing the bridge, which was far from ideal as it was accessed by a stepped ramp that provided really poor accessibility for vulnerable users, wheelchair users, motorised wheelchair users, mums with buggies taking the kids to school and other users. In considering the permanent options, National Highways has a duty to ensure that it invests money to deliver schemes that are safe and offer value for money. However, I can assure everyone that across all its activities, National Highways’ top priority, which it takes very seriously, is ensuring public safety.
As the scale of the works to replace the bridge has become clearer, the cost estimates have increased substantially, particularly when we reflect on the modern standards for access. National Highways is completing a review to assess the various options for providing a crossing point that will ensure that users can cross the road at this location safely. Junction improvements that provide signalised crossing points or a bridge are under consideration, but the full cost for those and the difference between the two will be outlined in the near future. I have had a word with National Highways and it will communicate the outcome of the review to local stakeholders within the next few months—I hope that it will be well before the end of the year—and it will also confirm timescales for the construction of any permanent solution.
Following that review, when the options with the costings have been put forward, I will be very happy to meet the hon. Member and National Highways, after they have had a preliminary meeting, to talk about any issues—if he is not happy with the solutions that National Highways comes forward with. I recognise that the outcome of the review will affect the community in Bootle, but it is right that we strive to reach a proper, long-term solution that is safe and delivers value for money. We will continue to work with National Highways to reach a solution and as it looks to communicate that in due course.
Question put and agreed to.
Defibrillators: Public Access
(10 months, 1 week ago)
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Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered public access to defibrillators.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Charles. I am bringing this motion before the House this afternoon to maintain the steady pressure from campaigners and parliamentarians in relation to increasing awareness of and knowledge about defibrillators in two key regards: one, where they are; and two, how to use them. This continues the fine work conducted by Members from across this House, including the members of the all-party parliamentary group on defibrillators, its chair—the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) —and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), as well as Members of the other place.
This issue was brought home to me by the experience of my constituent, Bonnie McGhee, who works in the cardiology unit at Queen Elizabeth Hospital. Sadly, Bonnie lost her father to a cardiac arrest, but has since successfully raised funds for a defibrillator in his memory. Access to a defibrillator may have saved his life. The defibrillator that Bonnie funded is in the Clockhouse Community Centre in memory of her father, Jeffrey Anthony Mee. I think of Bonnie and her late father often, and today, they are especially in my thoughts.
In the UK, one person dies every three minutes from a heart or circulatory disease and, every year, 60,000 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests occur. Research by the National Institute for Health and Care Research found that only 8% of people suffering a heart attack outside of hospital will survive. However, the same research found that the odds of survival increase to 32% if a member of the public has access to an automated external defibrillator. If someone has access to a public defibrillator and can administer a life-saving electric shock to the heart to restore its normal rhythm, that will improve the likelihood of survival for anyone who has had a cardiac arrest.
Defibrillators represent an incredible technical advance. They are lightweight, easy to use and designed only to help and not harm the patient. The issue is not about their design but their distribution and public awareness of what they are and how to use them.
Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
I thank the hon. Member for securing this important debate and for her excellent speech. Does she agree that community defibrillator training sessions are vital, and will she join me in thanking people such as Ryan Cawsey of St John Ambulance Cymru and Stephanie Roberts of the Gwalchmai Hotel, who make possible free defibrillator training sessions for Ynys Môn constituents?
Abena Oppong-Asare
I thank the hon. Member for her intervention, and I will come to that really important point about community training. I also thank her and agree with her comments about the charities and organisations that are already doing the groundwork to provide help and ensure that people are adequately trained.
Research from Resuscitation Council UK shows that access to AEDs is not fairly distributed across the income and ethnic distribution of England. In other words, if someone is poor and/or black, they are less likely to have access to a defibrillator, but if someone is affluent and white, they are more likely to have access. The research shows unequal access across England, with fewer in the north-east and more in London. This is a classic example of what Dr Tudor Hart called “inverse care law”, whereby people with the most needs get the least provision, and vice versa. I hope that the Minister can address that point and tell us what the Government are doing to tackle these stark examples of health inequality.
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for securing this important debate. I want to mention Lucky2BHere, a charity based on the Isle of Skye that works across Na h-Eileanan an Iar and the highlands. There are now more than 150 defibrillators across the Western Isles—my constituency—which is about the length of Wales. There is one outside my constituency office in Stornoway, which I will come back to in a second. They are outside schools, and can be accessed at all times.
The work is having to be done be volunteers, who see the great need for it. Michelle Macleod, who works in my office, collapsed in 2019 after having run a relay part of a half marathon, and it was with the help of defibrillators that her life was saved. That underscores, on a personal and an office basis, exactly how important those defibrillators are in my constituency. I congratulate the hon. Member on raising this subject, so that there is greater awareness among the public and the Government about what needs to be done.
Abena Oppong-Asare
I thank the hon. Member for making such an important contribution and Lucky2BHere for the work it is doing. I acknowledge his constituent, whose life was saved by this work. Volunteers are doing a lot of work to raise money for defibrillators. I have seen it happen in my constituency recently, where the Friends of Lesnes Abbey and Woods have raised money for defibrillators.
I welcome the Minister’s announcement that £1 million will be available for community defibrillators. I am sure that he will set out how that money will be used and what impact it will have. Otherwise, the money risks being more of a PR exercise than an exercise in serious public health policy.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the hon. Lady for securing the debate. She was very kind to mention me earlier—I brought the Automated External Defibrillators (Public Access) Bill to the House in 2020, as most Members will know. The Government accepted the need to have defibrillators in schools, which was really good.
The person who made that happen was Mark King, whose son Oliver died in March 2011 from a cardiac arrest—he was an outstanding young man who would have gone very far in the world. There have been 4,500 AEDs placed in schools, 70,000 staff have been trained in AED awareness and 47 lives have been saved. Two of the lives saved were in my constituency, because the defibrillators were in place at the right time. I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate, and I look forward to doing even more. Perhaps the Minister can give an indication what the next steps will be.
Abena Oppong-Asare
This is not to blow his trumpet, but I thank the hon. Member for the work he has done on the issue and for the important points that he just highlighted.
Let me go back to my point about the Minister’s announcement of the £1 million that will be available for community defibrillators. I have questions about the timing of the announcement, just a few days ahead of this debate. What will the method of distribution be for the roll-out? I am concerned that Ministers will pitch community groups against one another in a cruel competition to see who wins. The danger is that the winners are either the best organised or have the loudest voices, or else are favoured in the eyes of Ministers. This does happen with schemes of this nature. Resuscitation Council UK warns about
“defibrillators being disproportionately stored in communities that have resources, amplifying the UK’s mismatch between Automated External Defibrillator…density and Out of Hospital Cardiac Arrest incidence. By instead targeting public-access devices in areas of poor health and high OHCA incidence, this initiative could increase the chance of survival in the most high-risk communities.”
There is also the issue of public awareness and knowledge. Each year, there are 60,000 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in the UK, with less than one in 10 surviving. While immediate CPR and defibrillation can more than double the chances of survival, public access defibrillators are used in less than one in 10 cases. Defibrillators must be located in well-signposted, unlocked and easily accessible places that members of the community can access immediately in an emergency. They must be maintained and ready for use. By the way, the criminal justice system should throw the book at anyone convicted of vandalising public access defibrillators. Few crimes are more mindless than selfishly disabling a defibrillator that might save a stranger’s life. Does the Minister believe that the current range of punishments available to the courts for vandalising a defibrillator is adequate?
As the House will know, there is a national database of locations of defibrillators. It is called The Circuit and is maintained by the British Heart Foundation and the NHS. I pay tribute to Resuscitation Council UK and St John Ambulance for their work, but the database is not complete. The Circuit currently has more than 70,000 defibrillators mapped, but there are estimated to be between 100,000 and 200,000 devices in the UK. This means that emergency services, including the ambulance service, might not be able to direct people to a defibrillator to save someone’s life. Will the Minister explain how that can be acceptable and what the Government are doing to rectify the situation?
Jim Shannon
The hon. Lady is right to outline the fact that many people do not necessarily know where defibrillators are located, and there is a need to ensure that that happens. Does she agree that one thing that should happen—maybe the Minister can answer this question—is the teaching of CPR, which is crucial to ensuring that people feel confident enough to use the apparatus of a defibrillator? Does she feel that the Minister should take that issue on board as well?
Abena Oppong-Asare
I thank the hon. Member for making such an important point. He literally took the words out of my mouth, because I was going to mention that later. He is right, because there is no point having all these defibrillators if no one knows how to use them. There are some located in my constituency and more widely, and people do not even know about them. I went to my local station recently, and some of the staff did not know that there was a defibrillator in the station. That lack of awareness is quite concerning.
I warmly welcome the Complete The Circuit campaign being run by the Daily Express and the British Heart Foundation. The campaign seeks to have every defibrillator listed. If Google Maps can list every pub and restaurant, which I know we all like, surely we should be able to see every defibrillator on our smartphones. I congratulate the Daily Express and its editor, Gary Jones, for this initiative—I think that is the first time I have ever said that.
I thank the Daily Mirror, which has run a lengthy campaign to install defibrillators in public spaces. Martin Bagot has been the driving force behind the campaign, and I know that people will be interested to know more about the current availability of defibrillators, such as the sorts of public venues that are more likely to have them and the public venues where there is an acute absence of them. Is the Minister aware of any blackspots, particularly in rural areas, where there is a lack of defibrillators? As the hon. Member for Strangford mentioned, if someone can find a defibrillator, will they be able to use it?
There is a strong case for a public information campaign to explain what a defibrillator is and how to use it, which should be supported by workplace training courses and much greater awareness. There are examples of defibrillators from abroad where the information is much clearer and easier to understand. Can the Minister tell us what assessment the Department has made of accessibility for people who cannot read or who do not have English as their first language? Is there a case for reviewing signage and instructions to make defibrillators even more accessible?
Lastly, what about our workplace? According to information released under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, there are 25 defibrillators on the parliamentary estate, including in Central Lobby and Portcullis House—do we know where they are? No. We should be shouting that information from the rooftops; it should not be released through an FOI request. How many right hon. and hon. Members know the whereabouts of those defibrillators? I do not know where the 25 are. How many of our staff know where they are? How many of us have had training in CPR or using defibrillators? This is a classic case of “Physician, heal thyself.” In other words, we in this place should model good behaviour in all things, including access to defibrillators.
There are so many tragic stories from every constituency of lives lost when a defibrillator could have saved them, and I have heard some of them through interventions. Of course, there are many stories in which people have survived because of access to a defibrillator and the quick thinking and swift action of a stranger. That is the ultimate reminder that we are interconnected by shared humanity, that we rely on the kindness of strangers and that, one day, any one of us might need a passer-by to save our lives.
Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
I reassure the hon. Member, as Chair of the Administration Committee as well as Chair of this proceeding, that we will certainly look at her request around defibrillators on the estate. An email is being sent to the Clerk now. I remind Members who want to speak to bob up and down.
Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare), who set out some moving thoughts about the importance of altruism and caring for other people in their moment of need, and about how the Government can perhaps help communities to enable individuals to help other people.
I want to pay particular attention to two aspects of best practice in my constituency and in broader east Devon, and I will close with one ask of the Government. The two examples of great ideas relate to Devon Air Ambulance Trust and Axe Valley Runners club. I met Devon Air Ambulance Trust here in Parliament last winter. The trust let me know that it is running CPR training and training on how to use a defibrillator. It invited me along to Sidmouth rugby club to get some training on CPR and how to use a defibrillator. It was great, because I had not done much of that sort of training since being a Scout as a young lad. It was brilliant to see how much progress has been made in resuscitation and how much more can be achieved these days with technology that we did not have in the 1980s and 1990s.
The Devon Air Ambulance Trust has a “Help with all your Heart” campaign, which seeks the best possible outcomes for patients who suffer a cardiac arrest. Part of the objective is to provide more of the equipment, as well as trying to train people such as myself in how to use it. The trust has put AEDs outside its charity shops on high streets, and it is working with town councils in east Devon to enable better access to AEDs.
The second organisation that is doing great stuff in my part of Devon is Axe Valley Runners club. Earlier this week, as covered by the Midweek Herald newspaper, the club did a “defib dash”. A defib dash is a bit like orienteering, for those who know what that is. The idea is that the runners go off in groups with a map to find a number of defibrillators. They go on various routes, competing against one another, to see who can get back to the beginning having found the most defibrillators. They ran around Seaton, Axmouth, Beer, Colyton and Colyford, covering a big chunk of the Tiverton and Honiton constituency. I pay particular tribute to Heather Simmons, Claire Warner and Sarah and Ronnie Whelan, who deserve credit for that novel and creative idea.
My third and final point is the ask. It would not be necessary for community groups to come up with these fantastic initiatives if there was better understanding of where defibrillators are and how to use them. The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead has mentioned the Complete The Circuit campaign being run by the Express. The absence of a complete register of AEDs is a particular issue for rural areas such as my part of Devon. We think that there are 70,000 AEDs on the national register, but our understanding is that there are between 100,000 and 200,000 AEDs in existence. We are, therefore, nowhere near having a good idea of where defibrillators are located. This is an important issue. If someone comes across somebody who has had a cardiac arrest, one of the first things that the ambulance service will do when they call 999 is direct them to the nearest AED. In a rural area such as mine, however, the service might think that the nearest AED is miles away, without knowing that there is one just a few hundred metres away from the incident. As the Express has said, we need to Complete The Circuit. We need a full and proper record of where AEDs are located.
I am a Liberal Democrat and we do not really believe in intervening in matters in which the state need not get involved. In this instance, however, I have been racking my brains for reasons why the Government might not want to legislate or intervene to require community groups to register AEDs on a national database. I have asked the chairman of Sidmouth Town Council and other community groups about the arguments against having a comprehensive register of AEDs, but I have not yet heard a sound argument why we should not require everyone who, through the kindness of their heart, buys an AED to register it so that the ambulance service can direct people to all available AEDs.
In summary, fantastic work is being done outside the House by community groups, but we need a central register and it has to be as comprehensive as possible.
Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Charles, and to follow the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord), who made a really interesting speech. I like the idea of a defib dash. I do not know whether we have enough defibrillators in my constituency, but I am certainly going to go away and find out.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare) on securing and leading this important debate and on her great speech. Fewer than one in 10 people survive an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. Tragically, that means, given that annually in the UK about 30,000 people experience an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, that only approximately 3,000 of them will survive. In Yorkshire each year, there are approximately 3,300 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests, with a survival rate of only one in 13. Sadly, that means that more than 3,000 people in Yorkshire will not survive a cardiac arrest this year.
There are measures that can improve the chances of survival, including bystander willingness to begin CPR. I have seen that at first hand: my mum, on a number of occasions over the last few decades, has stopped, as a bystander, and she has saved more than one life. As a trained nurse, she had the confidence to do CPR. What is really encouraging is that when research has been done, ordinary members of the public—by “ordinary”, I mean without any medical training—are willing to get involved, but as I will come on to say, they do not always have the skills to do so. That sort of intervention can double or even quadruple the chances of survival.
I am pleased to say that Resuscitation Council UK found that people in Barnsley are more willing than some in other parts of the country to begin CPR if they witness someone having a cardiac arrest. Access to defibrillators and how quickly they are used can also be incredibly effective in improving the chances of survival after a cardiac arrest, with research finding that defibrillation within three to five minutes of collapse improves survival rates from around 50% to 70%. During the public engagement sessions leading up to this debate, the House of Commons research team found that more than half the people asked would feel confident to use a defibrillator without having had training. It is encouraging that 80% of people reported feeling confident to respond to an emergency situation where someone was suffering a cardiac arrest.
Although people are generally willing to help and get involved, they may not always be able to do so. Resuscitation Council UK found that defibrillators are disproportionately more present in affluent areas, where the incident rates of cardiac arrest are typically lower. Of course, no one would begrudge any area for having as many defibrillators available to them as possible, and I am sure that Members from across the House will join me in sending our thanks to those who have fundraised to source a defibrillator for their local community. I would like to take this opportunity to recognise the work of the Hoyland, Milton and Rockingham Ward Alliance in Barnsley, which has funded five new defibrillators for the area, three of which have been installed. That will literally be a lifeline to many in Barnsley East, and I know local people will be incredibly grateful to them.
Not everyone can rely on organisations to provide funding in that way. Less affluent areas face inequality in their cardiac arrest survival prospects, as those who live in more disadvantaged areas are more likely to suffer arrests but less likely to have access to a defibrillator. We need the Government to take urgent action to ensure that defibrillators are suitably distributed across the country, so that people are not at greater risk of dying from cardiac arrest just because of where they live. Last month, my office was pleased to support a parliamentary event by Resuscitation Council UK to highlight this and other issues associated with cardiac arrest survival and follow-up care. We were joined by cardiac arrest survivors and members of the council, who demonstrated how to administer CPR should we ever need to do so. I would like to take this opportunity to put on the record my thanks to them for an informative event.
Defibrillator access and awareness in local communities, particularly in areas such as Barnsley, will save lives, so I am pleased that we are having this debate today. I am keen to hear from the Minister what the Government are doing to improve public access so that as many lives as possible are saved.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
It is good to see you in the Chair again, Sir Charles. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare) on the way she introduced the debate and the passion she put into it. If we could all be as passionate, we would save more lives, which is wonderful, and I thank her.
Defibrillators save lives and that is why we need to have more of them. Everyone who has spoken in the debate so far has had a story of how a defibrillator has saved someone in their community, and that is because defibrillators save lives. If we know where defibrillators are, how to use them and what to do in medical emergencies, we will save more lives and be more confident in allowing communities to be a part of the healthcare response, especially at a time when our NHS is in crisis. According to the British Heart Foundation, around 3,500 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests happen each year in the south-west of England. In Plymouth alone, 28,000 people struggle with high blood pressure, and 25,000 people in my city live with heart-related conditions. That means we need to ensure that support is available in every one of our communities, should it be required.
Without doubt, the availability of defibrillators would improve cardiac arrest survival rates, and I know this at first hand. In March I held a #MeetLuke public meeting in Compton ward, at which local residents had an opportunity to ask questions to me and local councillors. Our three local councillors—Labour, Conservative and independent—had just been asked an exciting question about cuts to local buses, but the independent councillor struggled to answer. They said they needed some air, and they quickly wanted some water. When they stood up, they fell to the ground having a heart attack. If it had not been for the quick reactions of people in that room, that person would have died. One of the councillors started doing CPR on their fellow councillor, while the other one ran to get the defib, which had been installed in a church opposite to where we were. They called 999 to get the access code to the locked cabinet, and that triggered an emergency response from the ambulance service because a defib had been activated, and a police car was sent as well as an ambulance.
If it had not been for the quick measures and thinking of Labour Councillor Dylan Tippetts and Conservative Councillor Charlotte Carlyle, the independent Councillor Nick Kelly would have died right there. We had help from doctors and first aiders in the room, but if it had not been for the defib, he probably would not have survived. As much as we pride ourselves on having political banter, everyone should be able to go home to their family at the end of the day. When I saw a defibrillator being used right in front of me and how it saved a life, it left not only a harrowing memory, but a responsibility to ensure that there is a defibrillator in every one of our communities.
Councillor Carlyle is working with the local Pearn Charitable Trust to fund more defibrillators in that community, which is admirable. In addition to Compton ward, every other ward in the patch I represent needs defibrillators, and that is especially true of our poorer communities. Richer communities have more access to defibrillators than poorer communities. That is often because of the high upfront cost of a defibrillator, so I welcome the initiative the Minister has outlined to provide funding for communities to bid for a defibrillator. However, I share the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead about where defibrillators are located. We need to ensure that they go where the need is, not just to where people are good at filling in bids. We are aware from other areas of funding that if someone is a good bid-writer, they are more likely to succeed in the bid. That does not necessarily mean that they have a more worthy cause. I would be grateful if the Minister could set out how his Department is ensuring that the funding goes to where the need is, and not just to where the most successful bids are.
Regarding availability of AEDs and the overall package, it is absolutely important to consider where the risk is. The £1 million funding announced by the Minister is welcome, but it will soon be spent and the great need for AEDs will remain. Where are the deficits? Which areas have a lower concentration and density? They will also be the areas on the map where people are at higher risk of heart disease, and that is why we need to ensure that they have AEDs.
I second the call for defibrillator guardians to register their device with The Circuit. When people dial 999, they will then be able to access a nearby defibrillator and the emergency code to unlock it. It is important that people know about that. I recently visited the O2 store in Drake Circus in Plymouth, which had just installed a defibrillator and trained all staff in how to use it. That is an incredibly welcome move. I would like big corporates to take the initiative and ensure that they are looking after not just their own staff but customers and others nearby.
I challenged local supermarkets in Plymouth on whether they had defibrillators, but not all of them did. The shopping demographic includes people of all ages. For some, leaving the house to push a trolley or carry a basket around a supermarket can be quite intense. We know that cardiac arrests happen when people go shopping. As a basic piece of social responsibility, every single supermarket should have a defibrillator and a sign on the front of the store informing people that it can be used in the event of a problem. What additional conversations is the Minister having with large chains and corporates to ensure that defibrillators are not only registered on The Circuit but visibly signposted?
I echo the call about parliamentary AEDs. There is one outside the office of my hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan), who will speak in a moment, and my office is situated between hers and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead. That means that I know where the nearest AED to my office is located, but I am not in my office at the moment and I do not know the location of the nearest AED. There is a challenge to onboard people. I like the idea that we should be a beacon of best practice. All staff should be onboarded when they arrive on the parliamentary estate and informed about not only where AEDs are located but how to use them. We are often confused by advice on how to use the staff training allowance provided to us by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, but I think it could be put to good use with first aid training. Following the incident at my public meeting, all my staff will shortly go on a first aid course so that they can feel confident about how to respond in the event of a medical emergency. But that should be a standard for everyone in this place. We should lead by example.
Finally, there needs to be more focus in education and training. If we are faced with someone having a cardiac arrest or a suspected one, knowing what to do in those first few seconds could be the difference between that person surviving or not. As a country, we should aspire to equip each and every one of our citizens with a minimum level of first aid knowledge. Wherever someone is, they should have an understanding about how to provide basic first aid and what to do in the event of an emergency. That training should be repeated throughout their life as a refresher to top up their knowledge, so that wherever someone is, and regardless of whether they have a defibrillator near them, they know what to do in the event of an emergency.
What conversations has the Minister had with the Department for Education to make sure that our young people leave school equipped with first aid? They need to feel confident about operating an AED, especially given that there are places where young people are encouraged not to touch that thing on the wall because it is dangerous. I have heard that said a few times about defibrillators, but we want our young people to know what they should do in the event of an emergency. We should not scare them, but equip them with the knowledge about what should happen.
The defibrillator that saved Nick Kelly’s life in Plymouth was installed only a month before the public meeting. Had the meeting taken place two months previously, as I had originally intended, he would not be alive today. We owe an enormous thanks not only to the organisations, charitable groups and individuals who fundraise and host defibrillators, but to the organisations that pay for the recharging and upkeep, because it is often more prominent to buy a defibrillator in the first place, incurring a high capital cost. It is often less prominent in fundraising to pay to keep it tip-top and in good condition, so that it can be used.
I want to say a special thanks to the congregation and clergy at Emmanuel Church for taking the risk to buy a defibrillator, the benefits of which they have seen almost immediately. I hope that every single church, supermarket, public building and major location in Plymouth takes note of that, buys a defibrillator and puts the maintenance of it in its annual budget. If they do that, we will save more lives and it will help the health service to be able to respond to medical emergencies quicker when they do happen.
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare) for securing today’s important debate on public access to defibrillators, and I congratulate her on the thorough way in which she opened it. It is always a pleasure to take part in debates that are so consensual, and I suspect we are all on the same page, which is nice for a change.
Cardiac arrests strike without warning, and usually outside the confines of a hospital, leaving people in immediate need of medical attention. We have heard from a number of speakers that fewer than one in 10 people survive, which is truly frightening. According to medical professionals, every passing minute without defibrillation reduces a cardiac arrest victim’s chances of survival by a staggering 10%. In such critical moments, defibrillators emerge as vital instruments that are capable of restoring the rhythm of a failing heart, so accessibility and knowledge of where they are located are vital. Incredibly, there is no official centralised database that records the number of defibrillators and their locations.
Thankfully, as we have heard, some organisations have launched their own maps, such as the British Heart Foundation’s Circuit, to improve access to defibrillators. The Circuit is a comprehensive national network of defibrillators, which aims to improve survival rates by mapping the locations of defibrillators across the UK, enabling prompt access during emergencies. There are currently 60,000 defibrillators registered on The Circuit, but it is estimated that tens of thousands remain unknown to the emergency services. Raising awareness about The Circuit and encouraging registration of these devices will enhance their effectiveness in critical situations.
Luke Pollard
Having the data on one database is really important. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the data has to be accessible and pulled through to other devices? I just googled “defibrillators near me” on Google Maps, and there really are not any, so we need to make sure not only that the data is stored, but that it is publicly available for people, especially on their handheld devices.
Martyn Day
That is a very good point. None of us, myself included, goes anywhere without a mobile device nowadays, so that is the obvious tool of choice.
Timely defibrillation is a cornerstone of improving survival, and Scotland’s out-of-hospital cardiac arrest strategy aims to increase to 20% the rate of incidents where a PAD is applied to the patient before the arrival of the Scottish ambulance service. I encourage groups and organisations with a defibrillator to ensure that it is registered.
Early defibrillation can massively increase someone’s chances of surviving out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, but many defibrillators are never used because the emergency services simply do not know about them. “Scotland’s Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest Report 2019-22” highlights:
“The number of Public Access Defibrillators (PAD) in communities across Scotland that are registered on the national defibrillator network (The Circuit) has more than doubled since 2019”.
That is good, but we need to do better. Currently around 5,000 are registered. Registration on The Circuit makes a PAD device visible to the Scottish Ambulance Service and alerts emergency call handlers that there is a pad near an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. That makes registration a vital component in that chain of survival.
I am reminded of the Gandhi quote: “You cannot help everyone, but everyone can help someone.” Each of us as an individual can play a crucial role in bridging the gap between cardiac emergencies and lifesaving interventions. The British Heart Foundation’s map of The Circuit offers a valuable resource that allows individuals to check the availability of nearby defibrillators. By using the tool, anyone can quickly identify the nearest defibrillator, which improves response times and potentially saves lives.
Of course, 80% of cardiac arrests occur at home, so it is vital that Governments continue to consider ways to increase engagement at community level. For example, the Scottish Government want bystanders who witness an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest to feel able to take action. To achieve that, Scotland’s out-of-hospital cardiac arrest strategy aims to familiarise a total of 1 million people in Scotland with CPR skills; it works through increased engagement with community organisations such as sports hubs, local businesses and other community groups to raise awareness of and offer opportunities to learn CPR. I had CPR training in the past, but I think I could do with a refresher, as I suspect could many of us who have had the training. It is not done often enough; if an emergency occurred, I am not sure that I would feel as confident as I would have done a month or a couple of months after the training.
As I repeatedly point out in health debates, we cannot escape the fact that health inequality and poverty go hand in hand, and that is the case with out-of-hospital cardiac arrests. Those in the most deprived areas are twice as likely to have an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest and 60% less likely to survive than those in less deprived areas. Deprivation also has a significant effect on the likelihood of receiving bystander CPR. Then there are geographic and demographic issues: around 11% of the population of Scotland live in rural areas; they are 32% less likely to survive or to leave hospital after an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest than those living in urban areas. Over the last seven years, we have started to understand more clearly the association between measures of socioeconomic position and decreased survival rates after such incidents.
Ethnicity can also be a factor in how likely a person is to experience an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. For example, people from south Asian backgrounds are at up to 50% higher risk of developing coronary heart disease than white Europeans, and coronary heart disease can lead to heart attack or cardiac arrest. In addition, international studies show that women are less likely to have CPR performed on them—a pattern that we also see in the Scottish data. The misconception that breasts make CPR more challenging, fear of doing harm, fear of inappropriate touching and fear of being accused of sexual assault have been given by the public as reasons for that gender discrepancy. It is important that we work to combat those fears and embed the knowledge that CPR is a gender-neutral lifesaving technique. Those health inequalities confirm beyond doubt the importance of prioritising pads in areas of the highest risk first, as a number of other speakers have mentioned.
Availability and accessibility of defibrillators are critical factors in reducing the devastating impact of cardiac arrests. One way of making defibrillators more accessible would be to make them more affordable. Currently, charities and local authorities can claim a VAT exemption when purchasing a defibrillator, but that should be extended to anyone buying the equipment. Quite simply, the UK should follow Ireland’s example and remove the tax. However, raising awareness of initiatives such as The Circuit, encouraging greater community involvement and tackling poverty all remain essential. By embracing those measures and working together, we can create a society in which every individual has a fighting chance against cardiac emergencies, and ultimately save more lives.
Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to close for the Opposition with you in the Chair, Sir Charles. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare) for bringing forward this debate. She never ceases to bring the voice of her constituents right to the heart of this place, and today is yet another shining example her doing her community incredibly proud.
It is welcome that there is such unity and consensus on this issue. As we have heard, tremendous progress has been made towards making defibrillators accessible to the public, thanks to the many incredible charities and people who have been working hard to do so. The Community Heartbeat Trust, the Oliver King Foundation and SADS UK are just some of the organisations that are doing brilliant work to provide education and information about automatic external defibrillators, AEDs, and to ensure that more defibrillators are easily accessible in public spaces.
The British Heart Foundation’s Circuit project has ensured that thousands of defibrillators and their locations are registered online, but, as we have heard, that work needs to go further. People who experience the very worst in the heart of their communities need to know that they are able to find and access an AED when they so desperately need it. The Premier League defibrillator fund will provide AEDs to grassroots clubs, which is very welcome and will ensure that lifesaving treatment can be rolled out to even more stadiums.
As we have heard, in the UK one person dies every three minutes from heart or circulatory disease, and 60,000 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests occur every year. Take a minute to think about that. My hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead quoted research published by the National Institute for Health and Care Research, which found that just over 8% of people suffering a cardiac arrest outside hospital survive—just 8% of the 60,000 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests. The same research found that the odds of survival increase to 32% if a bystander has access to a public AED, and some studies place that figure even higher. It is simple: AEDs save lives.
According to the British Heart Foundation, the low cardiac arrest survival rate in Britain can be attributed to a lack of access to defibrillators. This critical technology must be accessible to work. With my medical hat on, I will take a moment to explain how it works. CPR works to send the blood around the body to take oxygen to the tissues as a holding measure, but the AED is required to shock the heart and try to restart it again so that it can pump the oxygen around the body. Imagine somebody providing non-stop CPR for hours on end. Not only would that be far too long and the person would be brain dead at the end, but without an AED—without that shock delivered to the heart—CPR is actually pointless.
We must be clear: AEDs are simple, safe and effective. They are portable, have plain instructions and the user cannot give a shock accidentally or hurt somebody. From my professional experience in the emergency department, I know how important quick access to treatment is for patients in cardiac arrest. There can be no doubt that patients who are admitted to hospital after having received prompt treatment with chest compressions or, even more effective, a defibrillator have far improved chances of making a recovery. There is also an economic benefit, because the people whose chances of recovery are worse may spend a long time in an expensive intensive care bed, often not surviving at the end of it. That makes the argument for giving people a better outcome in the first place, which prevents those protracted stays in intensive care and saves money in the long run.
When the heart stops beating, every second counts, and a person’s chance of survival decreases by approximately 10% with every minute that defibrillation is delayed. That speaks to the importance of everyone knowing where the AEDs are. With our NHS in crisis and emergency care at breaking point, lives are being endangered. In December last year, the average ambulance wait for category 1 patients had increased to 10 minutes—the worst performance on record. Those stats make a very clear argument: the painful fact is that people are dying as a result of not being able to get the shock they need from a trained person, whether they arrived in an ambulance or came from an AED in the vicinity.
Category 1 patients are the most serious and life-threatening cases, including cardiac arrest. In a category 1 scenario, every second is the difference between life and death, and longer ambulance waits are costing lives. Sadly, after 13 years of Conservative governance, patients can no longer rely on an ambulance arriving in time. At the end of last year, one in 10 urgent cases waited over 11 hours for an ambulance. How can we in all conscience say to people who lost loved ones in such cases that their loss could not have been avoided, when we know full well that it could have been?
Last year, the Government committed to funding a defibrillator in every state-funded school in England by the end of the academic year. As the academic year is nearing its end, will the Minister outline what progress has been made on that commitment? The Government also committed last year to £1 million of funding to provide an estimated 1,000 public access defibrillators across communities in England. I note that the Department re-announced that policy just last week, so has there not been any progress on that commitment? Will he update us on how the application process is progressing and whether any PADs have been installed, and if they have, in which communities? It is crucial that they are placed in communities where the need is greatest to tackle growing health inequalities, which we have heard about extensively today.
It is really important that health inequalities are not allowed to widen any further through a lack of access to equipment that could save lives. That has to go hand in hand with training people in how to use them. I would be interested to know what work the Department is doing to encourage uptake in the communities that are most in need. While many of us will agree that public access to defibrillators will be a fantastic step towards saving lives, we must not forget that our country also deserves a well-funded, well-resourced and well-supported NHS. It is heartening that there is widespread, cross-party support for publicly accessible AEDs. I hope that the Government will build on the support from across the House and do what is needed to ensure that access is available.
Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
I remind the Minister that if he takes up the full time he must leave two minutes for the mover of the motion to wind up.
The Minister for Health and Secondary Care (Will Quince)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I assure you that, although I will try to address as many of the points and themes raised during this very constructive debate as possible, I do not intend to take the full time available to me.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Abena Oppong-Asare) on securing a hugely important debate, and I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. Although I did not agree with all the points made by the Labour Front Bencher, the hon. Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan), I thoroughly agree that there is considerable consensus. What has been displayed is Parliament working at its best, with all hon. Members raising constituency cases and rightly campaigning for greater access to and awareness of defibrillators in their communities and across our country. I put on record my condolences to those who have lost loved ones due to sudden death caused by an undiagnosed heart issue.
As has been said, defibrillators provide vital treatment, with the latest research showing that the use of such devices within three to five minutes of a cardiac arrest increases the chance of survival by over 40%. It is therefore crucial that we have enough defibrillators in public spaces to provide life-saving interventions when needed. I join the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead in paying tribute to and thanking the APPG and its members for all their work in this area. She mentioned the need for steady pressure, and I think that she is absolutely right to use that phrase. It is vital that we keep that steady pressure up, not just on the Department or the NHS but on organisations up and down the country, to ensure that we have as much access to these vital AEDs as possible.
The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead set out very articulately and eloquently the compelling case for access to and awareness of defibrillators, and I think that she did her constituents and the House a huge service today. I would also like to thank the charities, businesses, clubs and societies that go out and fundraise for AEDs; they are doing their communities a huge service too. Investing in devices and treatments that can prevent the most serious cardiac arrythmias is a priority for the Government. The hon. Lady also rightly raised the issue of inequality. That certainly preys on my mind when considering many aspects of health. She made a very powerful case, and I hope to address that point in my contribution.
As the hon. Member for Tooting mentioned, in December the Government announced a £1 million fund to design a grant scheme for the expansion of publicly accessible AEDs in the community. That fund was designed to provide an estimated 1,000 new defibrillators in spaces across the country. Whether at a town hall, a post office or a favourite green space outside the local Co-op, having access to AEDs in easy-to-reach areas, as we know and as has been very articulately set out this afternoon, can be a lifeline that keeps loved ones with us.
The fund builds on work by the Government, the NHS and stakeholders to improve survival from out-of-hospital cardiac arrests via the use of defibrillators and cardiopulmonary resuscitation—from now on I will use “CPR”, as I do not have the health expertise of the hon. Member for Tooting. The Department of Health and Social Care will invest the funding through an independent partner—I think this directly answers the question from the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead—which will be selected from the Government’s Crown Commercial Service list of approved suppliers. Successful applicants will then be asked to demonstrate that the defibrillators will be placed in areas where they are most needed.
To address the hon. Lady’s point about inequality, although Ministers will have no involvement in deciding where defibrillators are sited—it would be totally inappropriate for them to have that kind of involvement— I understand her concerns. It is inevitable to some extent that where an item of medtech is purchased by local communities, there will be a higher prevalence in more affluent areas, where it is easier to fundraise. Where there is Government funding available, it is important that wherever possible we use it to redress the balance in favour of areas that find it more difficult to fundraise. We must ensure that we target areas where there is a shortage of AEDs and do not just top up provision in areas where coverage is already good. I will certainly speak with the Minister for Social Care to see what more we can do to involve local Members of Parliament and interested groups, including the APPG, with the selected partner, to ensure that we get that right, because the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead has made a compelling case.
Abena Oppong-Asare
That is really good news to hear. Something that I also want to suggest to the Minister, which I think is really important, is about mapping areas of high need, because one of my concerns is that I am seeing community organisations fundraise for defibrillators, unaware that that fund has been available since late last year. I appreciate that these things take time and it is important that we get it right—we are not just flashing money around anyhow—but will review mechanisms be put in place to ensure that over time the funding is going to the right areas and that the right individuals are receiving the benefits of it?
Will Quince
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. She is absolutely right. It is important that whenever we spend Government money—taxpayer-funded money—in this way, there is a proper evaluation process. Having said that, although looking back and asking if we got it right is key, the most important thing for me is to get it right first time. We do that by ensuring that there are clear criteria.
The hon. Lady is also right that we have to map and look at not just areas where people do not have access to AEDs, but areas of social deprivation and areas with a higher prevalence of cardiovascular disease or higher footfall. Those are all factors that we absolutely need to consider when designing the criteria that the independent third-party provider would scope. I am keen to work with the hon. Lady and the APPG to ensure that we are getting that right.
Alongside that—and this is the reason why the number of AEDs that will be available through the fund is an estimate—there is a plan to ask for the match funding that some organisations receive. I am conscious that some areas will be able to do that but others will struggle, which is why it can be full or partial. Potentially, however, that could double the number of AEDs available. Some communities might be able to make only a small contribution, but others could match-fund it entirely. It is important that we set criteria that make it available as widely as possible to communities, especially those less affluent areas where fundraising is difficult.
Abena Oppong-Asare
That is really good. Another thing to highlight is that, as we see in data from The Circuit, not everyone is registering their defibrillators. Is the Minister coming to the point about organisations ensuring that when they receive the funding, they register it as well?
Will Quince
Absolutely. The hon. Lady pre-empts me: I am coming on to The Circuit, because that point has been made by nearly all hon. Members, but I will first conclude my remarks about the fund.
Successful applicants will be encouraged to train or facilitate CPR training in the local community. That is an important element. To expedite the distribution of funding, and in readiness for the appointment of our partner organisation—this touches on the hon. Lady’s question—on 28 June the Department published an invitation for those organisations that wish to bid for an AED to submit an expression of interest.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Social Care wrote to all hon. Members informing them of the AED expression of interest and setting out how organisations can register their interest. It is incumbent on all Members of Parliament to ensure that community groups, organisations and local authorities across our constituencies spread the message loud and clear so that we get as many expressions of interest as possible. I urge any organisation that may benefit from a defibrillator, whether it is a sports club, a local theatre or a community hall, to register and have that opportunity. It is also important that we encourage local councillors to get involved.
The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead asked specifically about the Department for Education. I was Schools Minister at the time the decision was made and signed off. On 17 July, the Department for Education announced that it would provide defibrillators to schools in England that do not already have access to one. That is expected to be completed by the end of the 2022-23 academic year. The scheme, of which I am very proud, is the largest distribution of defibrillators to be rolled out across England to date. It will provide more than 20,000 devices, backed by £19 million of funding.
Dr Allin-Khan
The end of the academic year is in two weeks’ time, on 17 July. May I ask for an update on the progress to meet the target?
Will Quince
I have not been the Schools Minister for many months, but I will gladly ensure that the relevant Minister—or I, having accessed that information—gets it to the hon. Lady.
I remember that a key point in the design of the scheme—this touches on a point made by many hon. Members—was that providing an AED, in and of itself, is not enough. Accompanying the roll-out, we wanted to ensure that there were awareness videos about how easy it is to use an AED. We want teachers, as part of their training and in the staffroom, and pupils in assemblies to see how easy an AED is to use. In a rolling way, we hoped to create a new generation of young people who are confident in their use. As AEDs become more prevalent across communities, that can only be a good thing.
I think it was the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) who asked about CPR and first aid training. As a Back Bencher, I campaigned to have first aid included on the curriculum. The Schools Minister at the time was not very happy about that—not because he was against having it on the curriculum, but because the curriculum was already very full—but we did manage to get it included. It is important that we upskill young people so they have the confidence to act in the unlikely but possible event that they encounter someone in cardiac arrest.
The question about vandalism of defibrillators is a fair one. I had not given it any thought, but I will certainly have a conversation with my counterparts in the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice and see if there is any scope to take further action in that area.
Turning to The Circuit, I would certainly like to recognise the incredibly important work that charities do in ensuring that the public have access to defibrillators. The British Heart Foundation, in partnership with Resuscitation Council UK, the Association of Ambulance Chief Executives and of course the national health service, set up The Circuit, which is the national defibrillator network database that provides information on where defibrillators are located.
I heard the point that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) made about legislation, which I have some concerns about. At the moment, registration is entirely voluntary, so nobody is forced to register their defibrillator with The Circuit. However, registration enables the emergency services and community first responders to locate the nearest publicly accessible external defibrillator when they are treating someone suffering from an out-of-hospital sudden cardiac arrest. In those crucial moments after a cardiac arrest, we know that locating an AED quickly will help save lives.
Richard Foord
What are the arguments against making registration compulsory?
Will Quince
That is a question that I had not previously been asked. The danger of legislating in an area like this is that often there are consequences of legislation. One consequence would be that all existing defibrillators were registered as part of The Circuit, and that comes with a tick—that is a merit. However, having created legislation and having worked in Government Departments where legislation has been drafted on numerous occasions, I know that there are invariably and inevitably also negative unintended consequences that need to be considered and thought through.
For example, would registration discourage communities from taking a defibrillator? Would it discourage businesses like the one to which the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport referred from putting one in their shop? We have to think through that kind of thing. What kind of pressure does it put on those organisations? Would it discourage people? If we are going to create legislation, what are the implications of not registering? Will there be a criminal sanction or a civil one? These are all things we would have to work through, and that is why legislating on something like this is complex. We have to remember that most defibrillators are bought by community groups, although in this particular case the Government support them. We would be placing a legal requirement on them for something that they are purchasing through goodwill, for philanthropic or altruistic reasons.
We have just got to be careful. I am not saying that we should not consider it, but it is not quite as simple as saying, “Let’s legislate,” and thinking that that will address the problem. What we need to do, and are doing, is to encourage as many people as possible to register because of the benefits of registration.
Abena Oppong-Asare
Would those who receive funding from the £1 million fund for the community be required to register with The Circuit? Where there is Government funding, I think we should be encouraging registration. The more people who are aware, the better.
Will Quince
I totally agree. I will check whether registering will be among the conditions for grant funding; I would like to think that it will, and I will work with the Minister for Social Care to ensure that it is. We know that there are many defibrillators that are not on The Circuit, and—short of legislating, which would not be a quick or easy solution—we have to get them on it as quickly as possible. We have to urge as many organisations and individuals as possible to register.
The hon. Lady asked what steps we are taking to promote that. I recently wrote to all local authorities to ask them to check and, if they have not done so already, to consider adding their defibrillators to The Circuit. I also asked them to reach out and share that message with parish councils, town councils, community groups, village halls, businesses and others that may have a defibrillator that is not registered on The Circuit. I am keen to work with local authorities, which have a reach into their communities that neither central Government nor the national charities could possibly have. I also urge all right hon. and hon. Members to encourage those organisations that have a defibrillator to ensure that it is registered. I join hon. Members in paying tribute to and congratulating the Daily Express on its important campaign, which I am happy to support.
I hear what the hon. Lady says about raising more public awareness about AEDs and where they are located, not on just the parliamentary estate but across communities and the country. I will continue to look at what more we can do centrally, but also by working with national and local charities, to raise that awareness.
The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport asked about businesses. Some organisations—such as the Premier League, which the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead referred to—are leading the way, but we want to encourage more to do so. I will give further thought to how we can encourage other businesses to do the same.
The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton asked about first aid, and particularly about CPR. Better awareness and education around first aid training is key to improving survival rates from cardiac arrest. I am pleased that NHS England has partnered with St John Ambulance to, in effect, co-ordinate skills development to significantly increase the use of AEDs by individuals in community settings. That includes a national network of community advocates to champion the importance of first aid training. The plan is to reach 60,000 people, which will help to save up to 4,000 lives each year by 2028, empowering local communities to act more quickly to save people’s lives.
Finally, I cannot speak about cardiac arrest without speaking about prevention, which the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport referred to. The prevention of heart disease is critical to reducing the number of sudden cardiac arrests. I will set out some of the work that NHS England is doing to reduce preventable deaths from heart disease. Currently, £2.3 billion is being spent to increase the number of centres diagnosing heart disease to at least 100 sites by March 2025. NHS England has developed a new fast-track echocardiography training scheme, which has led to 150 additional echocardiographers, with further support available in 2023-24.
The NHS health check programme, which the Secretary of State recently spoke about, is a core component of NHS England’s CVD prevention pathway. Over 15 million people are eligible for a NHS health check every five years. For every 1 million checks delivered, the NHS health check could prevent an estimated 400 heart attacks and strokes. Something like 10.8 million checks have been delivered between 2013 and December 2022, but it is important that we work hard to ensure that more people benefit from that lifesaving service and get a health check. I am keen that we make it easier and more convenient for people to do so.
I hope that today I have demonstrated the Government’s commitment to increasing the number of AEDs in our local communities. I am keen to see how we can turbocharge that and work with businesses and local communities to go much further. We can all agree that this agenda really matters. Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead for highlighting this vital issue. I look forward to working with her to bring about the change in this area that we all want to see.
Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
I invite the hon. Member who secured the debate to wind up for up to two minutes.
Abena Oppong-Asare
I thank the Minister for his remarks about what can be done. This debate was very much about a collaborative approach. Indeed, it is one of the rare debates that I have attended where there has been much consensus.
I thank hon. Members for sharing their experiences, particularly the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord), who also shared some best practices on defibrillators. I am not familiar with the defibrillator dash, but it is something that we can all look into. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) for her comments about the community groups fundraising for defibrillators in her constituency, and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), who talked about the importance of corporates, the work that they have done in Plymouth and what can be done in supermarkets.
I thank the Minister for saying that he will consider what engagement and what encouraging conversations there can be with businesses. I am a bit concerned about the £1 million fund, in terms of inequality and little groups being missed out, particularly because we know that the groups that know how to do slick bids are the ones that are very good at getting the money. I am feeling a bit reassured by the Minister that the Government are looking at work to ensure that it is distributed equally, but I think a review needs to be done to make sure that nobody is left behind. It would also be good to get some clarification about whether those receiving funding are being required—
Abena Oppong-Asare
They are? That is good to hear.
May I take this opportunity to thank you, Sir Charles, for saying that you will look at defibrillators in Parliament in your role as Chair of the Administration Committee? I am very impressed that you have taken that on board straightaway. I also want to thank the organisations and charities that have been driving this campaign for their excellent work and briefings.
I thank Bonnie for campaigning on this issue in memory of her dad. I want every citizen, no matter where they live or what they do, to know about defibrillators, where they are and how to use them. I want us all to know how to use one, just as surely as we know how to use a cashpoint. I have had training in how to use a defibrillator—it is so easy to use. I also welcome what the Minister says about the Government’s work in schools and particularly about starting with very young people. I remember receiving first aid at school, so it is good to start this from a really young age.
All these things are possible with the political will to make them happen. I know we will keep up the fight on this issue. I thank everybody for their contributions to this debate.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered public access to defibrillators.
Levelling Up: South-west
(10 months, 1 week ago)
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Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
I will call Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger to move the motion and then call the Minister to respond. Mr Liddell-Grainger is feeling generous, so he will take short interventions.
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered levelling up in the South West.
It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I am delighted to see you. I thank the House for granting me this short debate.
The phrase “levelling up” is not a recent innovation, believe it or not. It was talked about in Parliament 150 years ago, as some hon. Members may remember. In the 1860s, for example, their noble lordships and the bishops were getting bogged down in another place debating delicate questions about rival religions in Ireland. A wise old peer intervened and said that we could only treat Anglicans and Catholics equally
“by levelling up or by levelling down”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 29 June 1868; Vol. 193, c. 183.]
I do not know whether hon. Members can make head or tail of that, but that is levelling up.
I am delighted that the Minister for Levelling Up is in her place; I am so pleased that she is replying to this debate, and I thank her for her thoughts and kindness. I doubt whether there is any political disagreement about the principles of keeping everything level. Why should there be? It means working to equalise opportunities and providing a level playing field for constituents across the UK. Right now, the only people who could possibly object to a level playing field, as we understand it, are the Australian cricket team, and I am pretty sure that Jonny Bairstow would agree with me—damned foreigners!
The Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, in which my hon. Friend plays an invaluable role, has published some maps that are very detailed indeed. They show how much money has been allocated to a huge array of projects in our constituencies all over the country. They are very large maps, covered with multicoloured markers. They remind me of the huge maps down in the depths of the RAF Uxbridge command centre on the western outskirts of London, where I have been recently—it may ring some bells. Those maps are from 83 years ago, so I am glad to see that we are still using the old tried and trusted methods.
It is helpful to keep that image in mind, because the scale of the task in levelling up is almost as heavy as it was for the battle of Britain. It is a herculean task, especially when we study those maps. As one naturally would, I immediately noticed the markers in my own constituency. Bridgwater’s transport needs have had to be reorganised with a very large grant indeed, for which I am incredibly grateful. The towns fund, for which I am also very grateful, will be used to bump up facilities in the constituency. There are also to be a new NHS training centre for Bridgwater and Minehead. These are well thought-out projects, and I am very grateful for the money. It has been a great team effort by a lot of good people.
Inevitably, my eyes wander around these vast maps. I know Somerset, and as colleagues know, I come from Devon originally. Strangely, the bits that stick out are not the places with coloured markers; they are the areas without a single flag or marker in sight, like Mid Devon. There ought to be only two possible conclusions: either those places are so prosperous that they do not need help, which colleagues well know is not the case, or they are bleak, empty deserts where nobody lives at all, which is obviously not true either—they are extremely good areas. In fact, levelling up has not reached these places either because bids have been submitted but have not made it or because there have been no bids at all.
It would not be fair to blame the Government. That is not how this works, and we know it. The rules of levelling up have not changed, from the first opportunity we went for many years ago to what we have now. If we want a project to be considered, we have to do one simple thing: work out exactly what we hope to achieve and then make a very intelligent, well thought-out bid. I get the distinct impression that sometimes—not just in my constituency, but right across the area, because I have looked at an enormous amount of bids—the intelligence is in slightly short supply. There has to be a proper business case, as the Minister is well aware.
I currently represent an area that has an exceptional district council, which has spearheaded the bids. Sedgemoor District Council has been a shining example in this and has had more bids than anywhere in the country. It understood local needs; it also got local people involved at the highest level. At the same time, it managed to mastermind national and international negotiations to bring many thousands of jobs to Bridgwater, and beyond. In fact, this affects all our constituencies.
Mr Liddell-Grainger
It is with great pleasure that I give way to my neighbour.
Simon Jupp
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s speech and the points that he is making. Devon, Cornwall, Dorset and Somerset have secured £231 million from the levelling-up fund so far. Plus, we have seen the reopening of the Dartmoor line and spades in the ground to dual more of the A303. Those four counties make up the great south-west; I chair the all-party parliamentary group for the great South West. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that although the Government are backing our region, there is still much more to do?
Mr Liddell-Grainger
I am incredibly grateful for that intervention, not only because my hon. Friend has done sterling work in the south-west and is well known and revered for it but because the A303 has been a labour of love for him; I know that it has been incredibly hard. For 22 years, Sir Charles—as you know, I have been here that long, God help you—it has been a bone of contention, but I think that my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Simon Jupp) has managed to move it on further than almost any of us, and I congratulate him on that. The A303 is crucial for all of us.
That neatly brings me on to the fact that Sedgemoor smoothed the way for building Hinkley Point C nuclear power station, as my colleagues are well aware. This was a mammoth task for a local council. It did a superb job, an amazing job, on a £25 billion project, which nobody had done for a generation. Sedgemoor has also been working incredibly hard to attract the latest innovations to the town. The chances are that the latest opportunity will soon be announced. I cannot say what it is, but it is called Gravity and it is on an old bombsite outside Bridgwater; it goes to 626 acres. I think that we will hopefully be announcing good news on that soon. Again, that will help the whole south-west with a massive input—
Richard Foord
It is really good to hear about the work of Sedgemoor District Council and the excellent bid that the hon. Member put his weight behind. When I became MP for Tiverton and Honiton last year, I gave my endorsement to a bid by Mid Devon District Council to build a relief road at Cullompton. This and a railway station at Cullompton would be fantastic in easing congestion and improving people’s health. Does the hon. Member agree with me that Mid Devon District Council was right to prioritise the levelling-up fund bid for the relief road at Cullompton?
Mr Liddell-Grainger
I thank the hon. Gentleman for the intervention. I did say earlier that there was a lack of intelligence in some of these bids, and the hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Perhaps having had a little bit more intelligence from, if I may say so, certain people could have been a little bit more helpful. It is a great shame that we did not get what was bid for. That is a great shame. But I can give an assurance that although Cullompton will not be in the new constituency, I think that it is in our interests to work together to try to get this. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister has been very good on this and that I and my neighbours will be having a conservation with her about it. I think that we can probably do something and add intelligence to it, if I may be so proud—who needs the education corps?
Meanwhile, just over the border, the district council—dare I say it to the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord)?—limps along. Since May, it has been under Lib Dem management, but it is absolutely rudderless. The new Lib Dem leader—forgive me, but his name has escaped me—has announced that he will only work part time. Perhaps that is actually a blessing for everybody—you never can tell these days. It certainly shares out the spoils of running a council exclusively among themselves. This is why we need people who can do the job. All the councillors running the main committees are, yes, Liberal Democrats. That includes the important scrutiny committee —yes, exactly. There is considerable doubt whether the Lib Dem lady who chairs the committee is able to scrutinise anything, including her own shopping list.
Mr Liddell-Grainger
No. The Lib Dems said that they were going to scrap bigger charges for car parks. Guess what? They are putting them up. The new councillors could have reneged on their annual increase in allowances —now up to £5,600 a year. They voted to abstain, dare I say it? I do not know how you vote to abstain, but never mind. So they get paid anyway. The new council leader, whatever his name is, also picks up £16,800 for his extra responsibility of being a part-time leader—and you wonder why these bids fail. That makes £22,000 in total. “Ching”, as the cash register goes. To think that they promised to be totally transparent. The truth is that these people are not transparent at all; they are totally invisible. Levelling up demands visibility—that is something that I have learned. Very vocal, completely focused local authorities need to argue the case. It has been proved that that is how to get results.
What price for Mid Devon’s part-timers? A vital new high school is needed in Tiverton. I am grateful for the Minister’s incredible help on that. Just before Christmas last year, the Government said, “Yes, the money is ready and waiting.” It is still waiting. We know the issue, and I thank the Government for their help. Seven months later, no progress has been made. Did anybody ask? Well, I have asked, and we are getting to the bottom of it. That is what this is about. Does the part-time leader of the council, Mr Thingummybob, pick up the blower and complain? Who knows what has become of the other invisible people, including the one who was suddenly catapulted, dare I say it, closer to here, last seen with clipboards and pencils preparing a strategy.
Levelling up means many things, but usually it means the unequal treatment of rural parts of the south-west. That is most important: we are rural areas.
Anthony Mangnall
I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent speech and for raising this topic. He is talking about things within our rural constituencies, but may I make a point about coastal communities? Within my constituency, I have Brixham harbour, which we put in a bid for. The two bids that we put in under the Liberal Democrat administration in Torbay failed; thankfully, it is now a Conservative administration. Where there are successful stories, such as Brixham fish market, we should not rule it out because it is making money; we should recognise the potential of what it could do for the whole county, were we to invest in it and give it the support that it needs.
Mr Liddell-Grainger
A superb synopsis, and I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he does. Leave the Lib Dems in charge and, as I said, the intelligence goes. I am sorry that the bid was lost, but we will be back. The Minister is listening, and I know that we will get the bid, because in rural areas such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes we have to fight our corner. That is especially important in places such as Cornwall. We are joined by my Whip, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann), to ensure that I behave.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
I backed a levelling-up bid from the then Plymouth Conservative council in St Peter’s, which is one of the lowest super output areas in the entire region. Sadly, we were turned down in that bid. I would be grateful if the hon. Member could lend his support for clarity on what a levelling-up round 3 might look like—whether it will be a “Hunger Games”-style competitive bid, or whether there will be devolution of funding so that local authorities can back the projects that they know would work in their area. Does he agree that it should be the latter, because local people know better?
Mr Liddell-Grainger
I completely agree, as I have already said, about local, intelligent, highly-motivated people. Having been in Somerset now for 25 years, St Paul’s is slightly legendary. It does need help. We have to say that. Talk to the police in Bridgwater: St Paul’s is always an issue. The Minister will have heard the second part of what the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) said, and I cannot disagree. It is vital. In the middle of Bristol is one of the most affluent areas of the south-west, but outside of Bristol it is completely different. The hon. Member’s seat has challenges. We all have to face up to that. I know the job that he does, and it is difficult.
I will move on—with more abuse, if I may. Yesterday morning, I received a self-congratulatory letter from Project Gigabit’s Minister of State telling me about the wonderful developments of bringing ultra-fast broadband to the extremities of Somerset and Devon. I had a giggle about that. There is no encouraging news for either of the counties, partly because the broadband roll-out has been left in the incapable hands of “Project Useless”, actually known as Connecting Devon and Somerset. CDS is a total cock-up. It was designed—I think that is loosely the word—by someone in a hurry and without a fully functioning brain. There does not seem to be anybody on the board capable of understanding the technology or writing a contract. How many times have we had problems? As a result, millions have been committed in public money to an organisation that could not deliver. Now Connecting Devon and Somerset is still failing to deliver, and it is two years behind schedule.
Do not bother storming round to the CDS office, because it does not have one, which is great. It is run by councillors, who are mostly part time, across the two counties, and employs only a handful of people, who are doing their best but are basically not up to the job. We need to move on. We have to sort out broadband in rural areas across all our counties. The same goes for the management of what turns out to be the worst water company in the United Kingdom. Never mind Thames Water, we have South West Water. It overpays its top team, dumps sewage in rivers, fails to invest in new reservoirs, yet wants to be treated like a paragon of virtue. It sells services in Bristol and Bournemouth as well as in Devon and Cornwall. They are up to their necks in it.
Mr Liddell-Grainger
No. Anyway, I received a jolly little email from the PR chief, which I would like to share. I will read, if I may, the first paragraph of the email I got yesterday, addressed to “Dear Mr Liddell-Grainger”, which was spelled correctly.
“I wanted to get in touch in advance of your levelling-up debate. May I congratulate you on securing this important debate? If you are planning to attend this debate on Tuesday I would be grateful if you or your team could confirm this.”
That is a water company supplying millions of people with water, yet is not sure I am turning up for my own debate. What hope have the rivers and fish of Somerset and Devon got, with people like that? If I may, I would also like to bring in potholes, the bane of all our lives.
Anthony Mangnall
I apologise for having two bites of the cherry, but since my hon. Friend has raised South West Water, does he not agree with me that, if it is failing to clean up our waterways or expand our storm overflows, and is not following the laws that we have passed in this place, namely around dividend payments, we have to ask the question, what is the point of this place, if the company is not going to follow those laws? We have to ask it not to take Parliament into contempt when it comes to enacting the stringent laws that we have passed to ensure that it cleans up our waterways.
Mr Liddell-Grainger
I am very grateful for that extremely serious intervention. My hon. Friend is quite right; it is beyond the pale. South West Water is a disgrace at every level. We are rightly trying to hold its feet to the fire. It has to be brought to account. If necessary, we have to get representatives here to ensure they understand just what a shambles and disgrace the company is. It is damaging the environment, damaging confidence and damaging people’s water. It is failing at every level. My hon. Friend gave an extremely good example of how it is holding this place, us, and the elected representatives of the people of the United Kingdom in contempt. That is wrong.
But back to potholes! Potholes are the bane of all our lives. Minister, I know they do not come under the remit of levelling up, but would it not be sensible if they did? Somerset has more roads than Belgium, and who knows where Belgium is? Weak beer and people in strange hats. Minister, we need to look at giving money to pothole improvement, in Somerset and Devon, as both counties desperately need it, which is important.
Before I give up, I would like to thank one person who is a star in my constituency, Emma Thomasson. Her father-in-law was a colleague of ours, Bob Walter, who was in this place for many years. She has been working flat out to put a bid together on the west Somerset side, which could easily incorporate Devon, because it is about learning and skills, rural access, mobility and giving young people opportunities in our areas. We know it is not easy. A-level provision is not good, local buses are not good, trains—well, we will gloss over that. People like her, who are dedicated to trying to get us forward are doing really well.
I will conclude by saying this. Levelling up is a deadly serious business; I know because I have done a lot of bids. I believe that the Government are treating it seriously, having talked to many Ministers, but they cannot do it alone. We have got to work together to achieve this. It needs practical local people producing workable plans that will benefit the greatest number of residents, and provide real value for money across the whole county and country. Levelling up is something that we all know works. We know it can work in rural areas. My hon. Friends the Members for Totnes, for East Devon and for North Cornwall have made the point time and again: give us the money, give us the tools, and we will deliver the job.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles, and a pleasure indeed to hear such a characteristically colourful contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger). I congratulate him on securing this important debate.
I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak about what the Government’s agenda on levelling up really means for the south-west of England. I want to dispel the common misconception that levelling up is solely about north and south. It is about so much more than that. It is as relevant to Minehead as it is to Manchester, and it is as much about rural and coastal communities as it is about towns and cities.
My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) mentioned Brixham harbour, which he has discussed with me on multiple occasions. I am very supportive of the project, so I hope that we can secure something really positive for him from future funding. Levelling up is about unlocking the potential of every place and person right across the UK, because only once we have done that that will we be able to maximise the strength of our economy, increase its resilience and, ultimately, improve the lives of everyone across the UK. That really is at the heart of levelling up.
It is not business as usual; we are changing the way the Government work with places to reverse inequality and unleash opportunity, prosperity and pride in place in all parts of the UK. We will do that by empowering local leaders and communities to deliver tangible changes through investment; boosting productivity, pay and living standards by growing the private sector; spreading opportunities and improving public services; and, finally and perhaps most crucially, restoring a sense of community, local pride and belonging. Our outlook can be distilled into one core idea: that no matter where someone is born, they should have a fair opportunity to succeed. Our message and mission are simple: stay local and go far.
Dehenna Davison
I will take a very short intervention, because I do not have much time.
Richard Foord
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. The Cullompton relief road has been part of the Mid Devon District Council levelling-up bid on two occasions. In both the first round and the second round, the bid was unsuccessful. How does the Minister recommend that Mid Devon District Council should pursue the relief road?
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the hon. Member for mentioning the Cullompton relief road, but I am afraid he has been pipped to the post, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Simon Jupp) has raised the issue with me on multiple occasions, to the point that it is probably one of my favourite relief roads. I hear about it weekly.
There will be a third round of the levelling-up fund, which is an incredibly exciting opportunity for local areas. The Government are easing the bureaucracy and burden of bidding rounds by simplifying the funding landscape, and we are introducing further funds, such as the shared prosperity fund, to provide further input for local people and hand powers and tools back to local areas so that they can deliver on their local priorities.
Anthony Mangnall
Where bids fail, what consideration has been given to loaning the money to organisations and councils, on the basis that the Government will reclaim it in the future, to allow levelling up not just for Government organisations but for the private sector?
Dehenna Davison
My hon. Friend raises a really interesting point. As I said, we have been exploring alternative funding streams, such as the UK shared prosperity fund, but the most exciting opportunity we have is proper devolution. We are rolling out devolution deals around the country so that local powers and local cash are in the hands of local people. To me, that is the better and right approach to enable long-term strategic thinking locally, but I certainly heard my hon. Friend’s point loud and clear, and I will be happy to discuss it with him further.
Luke Pollard
I am trying to understand whether the third round of funding for levelling up will be allocated in a similar way to previous rounds. The Minister talks about devolution. I am in favour of devolution, and I think that most of us in the Chamber are, because people in Devon and the south-west know their communities better than any mandarin, no matter how good, in Whitehall. Will future rounds of levelling-up funding be allocated in parallel with devolution deals? Devon is looking at a devolution deal at the moment, but we are uncertain about the timescales for the levelling-up funding and the devolution bid. Could the Minister provide some clarity on what will come first and on how they will interact?
Dehenna Davison
As it stands, the two are separate strands, as the hon. Member will know. At level 3 devolution, there is the opportunity to access an investment fund, which is a fantastic way to fund local infrastructure projects and the like. It is up to local areas to decide what level of devolution they wish to pursue, and we are in talks with Devon, Plymouth and Torbay to explore opportunities there. As for round 3 of the levelling-up fund, we are dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s, so it would be inappropriate for me to make any announcements today, but I assure Members that we will provide full detail in due course and very soon. I hope that provides the clarity that the hon. Member seeks.
I am not suggesting that levelling up is a quick fix that will happen overnight, but our levelling-up plans, underpinned by 12 ambitious missions, are set to be achieved by 2030. For that to happen, they require serious cross-Government and cross-society efforts. The first mission, for instance, has a target for pay, employment and productivity to grow everywhere, which is vital for the south-west, where average productivity lags the national average.
As I have outlined, our plans will lead to more devolution in more places across England; rebalanced spending across regions in areas such as research and development, arts and culture, and housing; investment in infrastructure and skills to grow the economy; and, crucially, a renewed focus on regeneration, supporting community initiatives and community safety.
To many, the south-west is the region of cream teas, the world’s best cider and buildings made from the famous Bath stone. It is unquestionably a beautiful part of the world, and it is no wonder so many people choose to take holidays and make trips to the south-west. In fact, the south-west attracts more visitors than anywhere else in the UK bar London—but I reckon you guys can catch up if we work hard enough!
Relying on tourism to drive the economy is a double-edged sword, especially in the south-west. While it creates plenty of jobs, many are low-paid, and while it supports countless businesses, that can price local families out of their area. For example, a full-time worker earns an average of £33.40 less per week than the UK average and more than a third of local people do not have a level 3 qualification. The unfortunate reality is that for all the region’s incredible natural beauty, it is also home to significant pockets of deprivation and disadvantage. One in 10 of England’s most deprived neighbourhoods is in the south-west. I have always firmly believed that prospects should never be determined by postcode.
The challenges in the south-west are clear, but so too are the opportunities. The region is home to world-class universities, highly skilled workers and cutting-edge small and medium-sized enterprises. Bristol and Bath are centres of advanced manufacturing and engineering, aerospace and creative industries, Plymouth is a growing centre of expertise in maritime autonomy, and in Torbay, high-potential opportunities in photonics and microelectronics have been identified.
In my Department, we recognise the potential of supporting local projects and are investing—I hope hon. Members are ready for me to rattle off my list— £131 million in them through round 1 of the levelling-up fund. From creating a new training academy for health and social care in Bridgwater, which my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset referenced, to supporting the University of Gloucestershire to bring empty buildings back into use, we are supporting projects that are delivering on local priorities. We are investing a further £198.6 million across nine towns in the region through the towns fund, and an injection of £96.2 million is going to the south-west through the getting building fund. Those are just some examples of the diverse opportunities and incredible local projects that we are funding.
As I have said, we need to empower local leaders and communities, which is why we are carrying out an ambitious package of devolution—the biggest transfer of power away from Westminster to local government in modern times. I am delighted that Devon, Plymouth and Torbay, and Cornwall, are in the first wave, giving local leaders the tools they need to deliver for their communities, such as increased control over transport and infrastructure.
On transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset raised the issue of potholes, that vital scourge on our society. I am pleased to say that there is an £8 billion pothole fund announced by the Government, which I hope he and his community can draw upon.
I am conscious of time, but let me again mention round 2 of the levelling-up fund, which will provide £186.6 million of funding across the south-west. The UK shared prosperity fund, which is worth more than £2.6 billion in total, is living up to the Government’s commitment to match EU structural fund receipts in each nation of the UK and in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. As I said, round 3 of the levelling-up fund will be announced very soon. I am pleased that we will be providing further funding in that way.
Levelling up is not just a slogan or a tagline; it is the central mission and commitment of this Government. We have defined the problem and drawn up a long-term plan based on measurable missions. Our focus now is on delivery. Work is under way. Funding has been allocated. Devolution deals are being negotiated. The whole of Government is being mobilised towards this goal. Decisions on transport, culture and healthcare are all being viewed through the prism of levelling up. That is no small task, but the size of the prize is clear, and I look forward to continuing to work with all hon. Members present to make levelling up a reality in the south-west.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).
Human-specific Medical Research Techniques
(10 months, 1 week ago)
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Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered human-specific medical research techniques.
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair today, Sir Charles. I want to briefly address the issue of how and why we might end the practice of using animals to test potential new drugs and treatments.
Like many others, I have in the past defended the use of animal experiments. I believed that the benefits, in terms of cures and treatments for human conditions, were worth it, despite the ever-increasing protests of people associated with the animal welfare lobby. Bringing new drugs to the market can be slow and expensive. Since 1950, the cost of developing a new drug has doubled approximately every nine years. Many of those drugs fail, and a major contributor to that failure is the problem of translating the results of pre-clinical trials to human beings. Over 92% of drugs that show promise in animal tests fail to translate into safe and effective medicines for humans.
Increasingly, researchers are relying on what are known as new approach methodologies based on human biology and utilising artificial intelligence, organ-on-a-chip methods, and the advanced use of human cells and tissues. I am grateful to Animal Free Research UK for a recent briefing at the Institute of Translational Medicine at the University of Birmingham and for its support in advance of this debate. It is a key organisation that is involved in funding and promoting the use of such methods in the UK.
We are beginning to see some exciting things. At Queen Mary University of London, researchers are using human-specific techniques to study the spread of various cancers. The University of Nottingham is developing stem cell models to better understand heart disease. Great Ormond Street Hospital is working with a three-dimensional model of the infant lung to help in treating RSV, which I understand stands for respiratory syncytial virus, and bronchiolitis, which is a life-threatening lung infection.
Animal Free Research UK also partners with the lifETIME—Engineered Tissues for Discovery, Industry and Medicine—Centre for Doctoral Training on developing animal-free technologies. Young researchers are trained in the use of advanced human-specific techniques. One experiment I saw in Birmingham involves a lab model of the human cornea, which researchers hope will make tremendous advances in treating various eye conditions and in helping people who may have lost their sight already. Another crucial development is the innovative liver-on-a-chip technology, which is proving to be a much more reliable predictor than any animal test of whether a new drug could be toxic to the patient’s liver.
There is a fast-growing market for human-specific techniques. The global market for 3D cell culture technologies grew to nearly $2.9 billion this year, and it is expected to exceed $5.5 billion in four years’ time. British universities and research units are at the forefront of much of that research, but trends suggest that we could fall behind. I know from work at the new Precision Health Technologies Accelerator in my constituency in Birmingham that human-specific technologies could be a game changer. By concentrating on them, Britain could secure a strategic advantage as a global life sciences superpower. Several leading companies are based in the UK, but the United States is making huge inroads with the work it is already doing with those companies, its regulatory framework and its plans for the future.
Evidence provided to the all-party parliamentary group on human-relevant science indicates that the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency is open to exploring alternatives to animal tests, that animal tests should not be used by default and that that should be made clear to sponsors of clinical trials. The public supports that. A YouGov poll in 2021 revealed that 65% support ending animal testing and replacing it with new methods, and 70% would like to see all animal experiments phased out by 2040. If we are to make real progress in this area, we need to adopt a strategy similar to that used for the Climate Change Act 2008; we need a human-specific technologies Act to provide a new legislative framework.
Just today I saw a letter from Professor David Main, who chairs the Animals in Science Committee, in which he suggested that we should transfer responsibility for new approach methodologies and ending animal testing from the Home Office, where it currently resides, to the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. There is probably a good historical reason why responsibility resides with the Home Office, but it seems strange, if we are talking about a new technology that could make a massive difference to the British scientific community, that the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology is not taking the lead on the subject. I hope that the Minister—I realise this is not wholly his brief—will report that back and ask for such a change to be considered. That seems sensible, the Government having gone to the trouble of setting up the new Department.
Professor Main also makes the case for a clear strategy to underpin a human-specific technologies Act. I do not want to say exactly what should happen, but, as I say, we could learn from the experience of the Climate Change Act, so we might include an expert advisory committee to keep us up to speed with the science. We could establish a milestone by which the transition to human-specific research could be accomplished. Obviously, that would have to be agreed after consultation with industry and academia to ensure that the timescale was realistic. Of course, the Government would need to take responsibility for developing and maintaining a comprehensive action plan and for regularly reporting progress to Parliament.
It goes without saying that it will require consistent and predictable funding—I hope that is part of the new Department’s intention—and other practical assistance if we are to help the scientific community achieve the transition. The benefits in terms of animal welfare, the development of new medicines and treatments, new jobs and a leading role for the UK would all be worth it. I hope that I can rely on the Minister to assure me that the Government stand ready to make this change a reality and that we can look forward to updates in the very near future on the steps they are taking to advance these new technologies and help us put an end to wasteful, sometimes pointless and often very ineffective animal testing.
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
You are putting in some shift today, Sir Charles, if I may say so.
I am grateful to be here, and very grateful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) for securing today’s debate, which is on an issue close to my heart. I chair the all-party parliamentary group on human-relevant science, and although I have spoken at some length on this issue before, today I will make just three points.
First, what drew me to supporting human-relevant science was the need to safeguard and protect animals. Home Office statistics show that 3 million testing procedures involving animals took place across the UK in 2021. Also, the UK is the top user of primates and dogs in experiments in Europe; thousands of experiments are conducted every year on these sentient animals. Many people will have seen The Mirror’s film showing horrific gavage, or force-feeding; UK-bred, factory-farmed animals are force-fed chemicals directly into their stomachs without any pain relief, day in and day out. Of course, other poor creatures have been bred to be bled. All this animal suffering is quite unnecessary.
Then we have the staggering waste of animal lives. Millions of non-genetically altered animals are being bred for scientific procedures; they are killed without even being used in procedures; 1.8 million animals were killed in this way in 2017. I have previously called for laboratory animals to be included in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act 2022, and I reiterate those calls today.
The stark reality is that animal experimentation is not a good enough predictor of what will happen in humans. For example, animal experimentation delayed the introduction of penicillin, failed in HIV research, and delayed the development of the polio vaccine by decades. History is littered with examples of human harm and fatalities after the application of animal data to human patients. Indeed, 92% of new medicines fail to pass human trials simply because testing on animals cannot predict human responses. Compare animal testing with, for example, the innovative liver on a chip, which can identify 87% of drugs that risk causing human liver damage, including where those drugs have passed animal tests.
That brings me to my second point, which is that human-relevant techniques work. They are based on human biology. There are also computer models, use of artificial intelligence, organ-on-a-chip technology and advanced use of human cells and tissues. Then we have rapidly developing gene-based medicine, whereby medicine is personalised to a patient’s individual DNA. It would be impossible to replicate that with animal tests. All that work is directly relevant to humans. It speeds up medical progress and gets new medicines and treatments to patients quicker, all without any inhumane treatment of animals. What is not to like?
Animal Free Research UK highlighted an excellent case in its briefing for today’s debate. It relates to diabetes, a major health issue for our nations and a cause of cost pressure to our health services. Scientists at the University of Exeter made a major advance in the treatment and prevention of diabetes by working with human cells. They made important discoveries about the changes that occur in insulin-producing beta cells. This could not have been achieved using animals, due to genetic differences between animals and humans.
My third and final point is that in addition to ending animal suffering and producing more effective and faster solutions for humans, ending animal testing would also be good for our economy. Once we look past the big business of animal research, which obviously has a vested interest in continuing with animal experimentation and blocking progress, we can start to turbocharge our economy and our place as a world leader in life sciences. In Scotland, life sciences contribute £3.4 billion to Scottish gross value added, and it is a growth sector. Given that we also have world-leading universities, and some amazing pharmaceutical companies in which efforts to undertake animal-free research are ongoing, we are really well placed. What we need is legislation to support the transition to human-relevant science. I would support a human-specific technologies Act; that would be an important step.
In conclusion, our laws are simply outdated. The regulatory requirement to test on animals before humans, despite clear and compelling evidence that it is ineffective, is simply not fit for purpose. I also note the letter written by Professor Main from the Animals in Science Committee, which calls on UK Ministers to take the initiative now on non-animal techniques.
I call on the Minister and the UK Government to mandate a rigorous, public, scientific hearing on the issue. We need to be evidence-led. That would reduce the unnecessary harm involved in animal experiments, and ultimately lead to a ban on this immoral practice. We must open up legislative paths that allow us to pursue alternatives, or risk being left behind when other countries steal our lead.
Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Before I call the Front Benchers, would anybody else like to make an intervention or a short speech?
Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair)
The Father of the House is shaking his head; he is here to listen. Carol Monaghan.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I thank the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), for securing this debate on what is clearly an important topic and a source of increasing public concern. He mentioned a poll commissioned by Cruelty Free International and carried out by YouGov in 2021, which found that seven in 10 adults believe it is unacceptable to use animals for experiments when alternative non-animal research methods are available. That is an important statistic to bear in mind throughout this debate.
Scotland is a nation of animal lovers. We often get correspondence about animals. People are very exercised about this issue. They love animals, and they want to be world leaders in protecting animal rights. The use of live animals for scientific purposes has long been a source of discomfort. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) quoted Home Office figures that point to over 3 million procedures involving animals having taken place in 2021. Worryingly, that was an increase of 6% on the previous year.
Given the importance of medical research and innovation in 2021—I think we all know about the development of the covid vaccine, in which data from animals was used before there was a move to human clinical trials—we can acknowledge that without a viable replacement, we cannot stop the use of animals in medical research immediately at the stroke of a pen. To try to be balanced, I will also say that a ban on animal research in the UK could move that research to countries with poorer regulation and actually make things worse. That is something to remember.
However, it is incumbent on the research community, the pharmaceutical companies and indeed the Government to funnel resources into the development of techniques that do not involve animals. It is worrying that the figures continue to trend upwards, and I would appreciate it if the Minister could address that increase. Opposition to the use of animals in medical research is not limited to concerns about cruelty and animal rights; there are significant questions regarding its effectiveness. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, pointed out that 90% of new medicines fail to pass human trials because animal responses cannot be used to predict human responses. Dr Fiona Godlee, editor-in-chief of The BMJ, reports that it is
“nearly impossible to rely on most animal data to predict whether or not an intervention will have a favourable clinical benefit-risk ratio in human subjects.”
If animal testing is proving a more and more unreliable method of testing medical interventions, the justification for continued and increasing use of animals in medical research appears to be limited. Considering that evidence, we must question whether sufficient urgency has been shown in the search for human-specific alternatives to the use of live animals. Last week, I spoke in the main Chamber against the continued use of fur, in particular fur for fashion purposes. I talked about the ceremonial hats worn by the King’s Guard and how much that was a symbol of cruelty. Much of last week’s debate, however, focused on fashion. Fashion is a human want, but in today’s debate we are talking about medicine and clinical intervention, which are a human need. Despite that distinction, there is a key similarity in both debates—there are alternatives.
Isolated human tissue and cells have been used as a replacement for live animals in drug discovery and development. The For Life On Earth campaign group points out that
“blood, tissues, and organ cultures are ideal test-beds”.
My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, talked about AI and computer modelling, and how those can give us another potential alternative. Against the backdrop of the ever-developing capabilities of AI, it is an area that we must explore fully.
On many occasions, the Government have spoken about their ambition to become a “science and technology superpower”; I believe we can also be a superpower in animal rights. It was interesting to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk talk about a human-specific technologies Act; that is the way we should be going with regulation and legislation. Things are out of date and have not moved as quickly as the technology. It is in all our interests, be it from the point of view of animal cruelty or of effectiveness, to prioritise the move away from animal testing towards a more humane framework for medical research. We need to phase out the use of animal testing in scientific research, and to develop human-specific new approach methodologies.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I draw your attention and that of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), on securing this important debate on human-specific medical research techniques. I pay tribute to his deeply informed knowledge of the subject, and to his advocacy for the ending of animal testing. I recognise the important role of Animal Free Research in progressing that important ambition. I am glad to have the opportunity to question the Government on the subject, and to reiterate the Labour party’s message that we must work to end harmful and unnecessary animal testing once and for all.
We have heard about human-specific medical research techniques, which are sometimes termed new approach methodologies or non-animal methods. Such methods can truly be at the forefront of scientific innovation. They include, as was mentioned, 3D tissue culture, also known as organs on a chip. That tissue culture mimics organ behaviour and can be used to study biological and disease processes. Other methods include computer-based modelling, such as that done by Bit Bio, the synthetic biology spin-out from Cambridge University; I met people there recently. It also provides human cells for research, drug discovery and cell therapy.
Recently, I spoke at SynBioBeta, the synthetic biology and bio-engineering conference. The range and potential of synthetic biology and of bio-engineering to address testing and trial challenges is stunning. I was given real hope that replacements for animal testing are around the scientific corner.
I am pleased that the Government have a policy of limiting the number of animals used in science, and I am grateful for the fact that non-animal methods of research have developed and improved, thanks to the work of brilliant scientific minds, not least in our United Kingdom. We must also recognise the tireless work of animal rights activists, some of whom have been mentioned in the debate, in progressing that ambition.
Labour supports the three R’s approach—that is, working to replace, refine and reduce the use of animals in research and testing—and I pay tribute to the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research for its work with scientists to achieve that. The development of alternative methods, and the advancement of AI and advanced computer modelling techniques, or in silico models, mean that we should be able to greatly reduce reliance on animal testing.
In his passionate contribution, the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) highlighted the ways in which the use of animals is not always appropriate for research on human diseases and treatments, as did the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan). I recognise that, but I note that there are a range of opinions on human-specific medical research. For example, some organisations, including some universities that undertake medical research using animals, have drawn attention to the limitations of non-animal methods, and the University of Oxford has stated that animals need to be used because of the need to understand the complexity of living bodies.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, was absolutely right to say that life sciences will be key to the future prosperity of our country. That relates to the fast-growing global market for human-specific technologies. The global market for 3D cell culture technologies grew to nearly $3 billion in 2023 and is expected to almost double by 2027. I gently ask the Government to consider whether it is possible to truly address my hon. Friend’s concerns when the Department is in a perpetual state of crisis. We have had nine changes of science Minister in five years and four Chancellors in six months, and it is perhaps not surprising that, with so little a focus on our scientific future, there has been a decline in late-stage clinical trials. From 2018 to 2021, the UK fell from fourth to 10th place globally as a host for phase 3 clinical trials. That is a matter of huge concern to many scientists and clinicians in our life sciences sector, and it is also a barrier and pinch point to the recognition and adoption of new and innovative medicines. The total number of new and innovative medicines available to UK patients is lower than in other comparable nations, such as Germany.
Approaches such as human-specific medical research are vital parts of our life science sector. As well as pushing the boundaries of humanity’s collective understanding, our life sciences are a priceless platform for the UK’s future growth. Labour sees a clear path from investing in scientific research and innovative methods to creating jobs that people can raise a family on. Innovation and science are critical to building regional economies that are strong and self-sufficient. Moreover, they are critical to our NHS and to building an NHS that is fit for the future. Human-specific research techniques have the potential to deliver effective treatments for major human diseases, to reduce pressure on the NHS, and to reduce the disease burden on individuals, and we need to ensure that the NHS has the capacity to absorb such innovations. That is why one of Labour’s five missions for Government is to build an NHS that is fit for the future.
I hope that the Minister will be forthcoming in his answers to the questions that have been asked. Specifically, I want to raise the latest data on funding from UKRI, which is an important funder of non-animal methods. UKRI funding fell by 6% between 2020 and 2021. That is in the overall context of the Government’s pledge to double science spending. Can the Minister explain the reason for that decrease? What impact does he believe that it will have on the UK’s ability to be world leading in human-specific medical research?
Will the Minister also set out what recent steps his Department has taken to reduce the use of animals in research, and will he commit, as Labour has, to a comprehensive review of animal testing, with a view to improving practice, limiting animal suffering, increasing transparency and with a long-term objective of phasing out animal testing entirely? Human-specific medical research techniques provide an opportunity and a challenge to our science, research and life sciences sectors, and I hope that the Minister will set out how the UK is responding to that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Paul Scully)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) on securing this debate on human-specific medical research techniques. I also thank the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) for his thoughtful words, and the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah). There has been a lot of food for thought and important points raised in some insightful contributions, and I will try to cover those. However, at the heart of today’s discussion has been what it takes to build world-leading science—science that does not just top global rankings in league tables, but changes British people’s lives for the better.
Earlier this year, the Government set out our plan to cement the UK’s place as a science and technology superpower by 2030. Backed by a commitment to increase public expenditure on R&D to £20 billion per annum by 2024-25, we are investing in the areas where we have the infrastructure, experience and insight to lead the world. Indeed, it was interesting to hear the shadow Minister talk about bioengineering, because that is one of the priority emerging technologies that the new Department for Science, Innovation and Technology has identified as something we want to back.
Life sciences is one of the areas that is crucial not just to grow the economy and create high-skilled, well-paid jobs today, but to ensure that British people can live longer, healthier, happier lives tomorrow. Our life sciences vision sets a strategy for the sector to solve some of the biggest healthcare problems of our generation. In May, we announced an ambitious policy package in support of the life sciences sector, backed by more than £650 million in funding, including £121 million to improve commercial clinical trials to bring new medicines to patients faster.
Clinical trials, which were raised in the debate, are not necessarily directly related to animal testing. That said, the UK led the world in trials during covid, providing both the first vaccine and the first treatment. That has wider impacts on the clinical research system, and, as we saw from the recently published review by Lord O’Shaughnessy, that provides the clear path for us to regain our world-leading position.
As the vision makes clear, research is at the heart of that. Research is critical to ensuring that we are providing the best possible care for everyone now and in the future. It is thanks to bold research by brilliant scientists that we can win the battle against life-threatening conditions by equipping our NHS with a new generation of innovative treatments. Extraordinary advances in non-invasive techniques, such as medical imaging, sensors and ex vivo analysis, promise to revolutionise human healthcare. However, to unlock that promise, many of the research questions that those technologies have opened up must be explored directly in humans. It is only by doing so that we can quickly and efficiently translate medical discoveries out of the laboratory and into our hospitals, where they can make a real difference.
UK Research and Innovation, as the UK’s national science, research and innovation funding body, plays a vital role in supporting the development of human-specific research techniques. For a number of years, UKRI has prioritised experimental medicine research, in which studies are undertaken in humans, to identify the mechanisms that drive diseases and provide early evidence for the validity of new discoveries and treatments to fight them. The Medical Research Council’s translational funding strategy pioneers that work, taking the most exciting ideas from discovery science into research using humans, with a clear focus on early clinical application.
The experimental medicine panel is a core part of that strategy, backed by an annual budget of £10 million. Since its establishment in 2020, the panel has invested more than £19 million to support 16 world-leading projects across the UK that could rapidly lead to major benefits for human health. That includes a project from Manchester Metropolitan University that aims to unpick how a region of the brain stem functions and signals to the rest of the brain. The university’s researchers hope that by using the innovative technology of deep brain stimulation, they will gain insight into the neural mechanisms that cause Parkinson’s, a particularly cruel disease, whose devastating impact will be all too familiar to many of us. That project shows just how transformative human-specific research techniques can be.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak talked about animal testing not working, and I think the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk said the same. Animal studies are used as the basis for extrapolation, to indicate possible risks to humans. Very few drugs that enter human clinical trials prove to pose an unacceptable risk to humans. There are many reasons why drugs that are assessed as potentially effective and safe in animals do not progress to market, including commercial reasons, but should animal testing not occur, more potential medicines would not progress to market. Resources would be spent on potential medicines that would have been excluded through animal testing, and the risk to humans in clinical trials would be considerably higher. We have heard a lot about the three Rs, and I will come back to that point—we actively support that approach.
Let me just take the opportunity to make clear this Government’s position on animal testing. There was discussion earlier about which Department has responsibility, and, clearly, we work on this across Government. The Home Office regulates existing animal testing, but it does not oversee the ending of it. That sits with the research undertaken under the auspices of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. That is why there are dual regimes. Clearly, as we move towards more advanced research and innovation, the responsibility increasingly comes under the auspices of DSIT.
Through UKRI, the Government actively support and fund the development and dissemination of the three Rs, which were set out more than 60 years ago by two English scientists in a programme for a more ethical approach to animal testing. As we have heard, the three Rs are: replacement of the use of animals where they are not necessary for research; the reduction in the number of animals needed to obtain the same amount of information; and the refinement of testing methods to minimise the pain, suffering and distress of the animals involved.
That is achieved primarily through funding for the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research. World-renowned for its leadership in this space, the NC3Rs works nationally and internationally to drive the uptake of non-animal technologies and ensures that the advances in these technologies are reflected in policy, practice and regulations on animal research.
Since its launch in 2004, the NC3Rs has committed £100 million to its research, innovation and early career awards to identify new and more ethical approaches for scientists in academia and industry. It has set out its strategy to increase the focus on animal replacement technologies, as well as championing high standards in animal research.
UKRI’s Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council also supports research into developing and applying innovative methodologies to study human and animal physiology, including in-silico approaches—organ-on-a-chip, as we have heard—organoid and other advanced cell culture systems. That includes a recent £4 million BBSRC and NC3Rs programme that focuses on supporting the next generation of non-animal technologies that mimic the physiological environment, enabling a whole-system/multi-system approach for discovery and translational science across the life course.
Much research can be done in non-animal models, as we have heard, but there are still purposes for which it is essential to use live animals. The dizzying complexity of whole biological systems means that they cannot always be replicated using validated non-animal methodologies. Therefore, although we very much recognise the need to replace the use of animals in scientific procedures with non-animal alternatives where we can, the carefully regulated use of animals in scientific research remains absolutely necessary at this time if we are to protect humans and the wider environment, whether that means improving our understanding of how biological systems work or accelerating the development of safe and effective medicines, treatments and technologies.
Steve McCabe
I appreciate that this is not the Minister’s brief—I am not trying to be difficult, and I am listening with interest to what he is saying—but I and others watching the debate will be curious to know whether it is Government policy and the Government’s intention to move to phasing out animal experiments, or is the Minister telling us that the Government think there will always be a place for animal experimentation?
Paul Scully
I have talked to the hon. Gentleman about the three Rs. Essentially, nobody wants to be using animal testing where it is absolutely not needed. If innovation, such as computer models and new research, can find new ways of edging that out, why would any Government not want to do that? It has to be based on the evidence and the best science, and done on what is best for humankind, and that is what we will keep in mind. It is not done for the sake of animal testing in itself; it is very much evidence-based, as I said. That is why the current approach is to actively support and fund the development and dissemination of techniques that replace, reduce and refine the use of animals in research and to ensure that the UK has a robust regulatory system for licensing animal studies and enforcing legal standards.
Our legal framework is absolutely clear: animals are only ever used in science where there are no alternatives, where the number of animals used is the minimum needed to achieve the scientific benefit, and where the potential harm to animals is limited to that needed to achieve that scientific benefit. Under UK law, there are three main purposes for which animals may be used in science: for basic research to understand biological processes and systems; for translational research to understand how biological systems apply to real-world applications, such as the development of medicines; and to test the safety and efficacy of medicines and chemicals.
In each of those instances, the rationale is clear. Without basic research using animals, we would limit our ability to make the kind of scientific discoveries that could transform medicine for the better. Without translational research using animals, we would limit our ability to develop new medicines not just for humans, but for animals. Without testing those medicines using animals, we would not know whether those medicines were safe or effective for use in humans or animals, unnecessarily limiting the availability of medicines to treat life-threatening diseases. Many medicines that prove ineffective in humans are detected earlier through animal testing, too, enabling us to focus valuable research funds on medicines that will be effective.
To be clear, this Government are unapologetically ambitious in our mission to make Britain a science and technology superpower. We understand just how much world-leading research matters if we are to succeed and translate that success into real benefits for our people and our NHS. That means investing in the next generation of tools and technologies that provide alternatives to animal research, and it means, where animal research remains necessary, maintaining those rigorous principles to put ethics at the heart of that research. I thank Members once again for their insightful contributions to the debate, and I look forward to our working together in the months and years to come.
Steve McCabe
Thank you, Sir Charles. I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in the debate. As I said earlier, I appreciate that this is not the Minister’s main brief, so I am grateful to him. I am a trifle disappointed that, towards the end, I thought I detected a “steady as we go” message, rather than one that was actually going to progress to phasing out animal testing, which is what everyone else would like to hear. I am pleased to hear about the investment and plans that the Government are making. I will conclude by simply urging the Minister again to take back the mood of the debate, so that people realise there is an alternative.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered human-specific medical research techniques.