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Lord Kamall
(a) public playground,(b) provider of early years education, or(c) school.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment restricts the Secretary of State’s power to designate vape-free places to only playgrounds, providers of early years education and schools in England.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, this group of amendments deals with the designation of vape-free places. As with the earlier debate on smoke-free places, they probe—I stress, probe—the Government on the powers they seek to extend the restriction of the use of vaping products, and whether those powers will be exercised proportionately and responsibly.
There is a careful balance to be struck here, just as with other issues. We all agree on the importance of protecting children and preventing the normalisation of vaping among young people, but at the same time we must recognise that for many adults vaping represents a less harmful alternative to smoking—a point that the Minister has repeatedly made—which can be an essential part of a person’s journey towards quitting altogether.
It is with this balance in mind that we have tabled what I stress are probing amendments—Amendments 181, 183 and 184. Amendment 181 would restrict the Secretary of State’s power to designate vape-free spaces to three categories of child-centred environments where there is arguably a rationale for such prohibition. But beyond the specific context, the case for ministerial intervention may become weaker. As with the earlier group of amendments, we are probing the Government on the level of discussion and accountability in granting Ministers this very wide discretion to designate almost any public or quasi-public space vape-free, provided that it is also designated smoke-free.
This gives rise to two questions. First, if the Government are not minded to accept this amendment, as with the question on tobacco-free spaces, can the Minister tell the Committee whether the designation of vape-free spaces would be by way of the negative procedure, the draft affirmative procedure or the “made affirmative” procedure?
My second question relates to the consideration the Government have given to the effects of passive vaping as opposed to passive smoking, particularly in outdoor environments. I tried to look for papers on the effects of passive vaping and my impression is that there is as yet no definitive conclusion on the harms from passive vaping in outdoor settings. One study concluded:
“Bystanders in both settings (a car and in a room) experienced some short-term irritation symptoms, expressed as dry throat, nose, eyes, and phlegm. In conclusion, short-term use of an e-cigarette in confined spaces increased harmful particulates of 2.5 micrometres or less and caused some irritation symptoms in bystanders.”
Another study looked at the effects of 76 subjects who were vaping next to 73 non-vaping subjects who had agreed to be exposed to the vapour. The conclusion was that non-vaping subjects exposed to vapour had significantly higher oral temperature after 20 minutes of exposure, but blood sugar and forced vital capacity—in simple terms, a measurement of lung function—were not significantly affected by vaping or exposure to vapour.
The point here is that the vapers were sitting next to the non-vapers or passive vapers, and I have been unable to find any studies on the harms of passive vaping in outdoor environments. So my second question is a simple one: what evidence do the Government have on any negative effects of passive vaping in outdoor spaces? Can the Minister write to noble Lords with links to and details of these studies, and the department’s own assessment of them? Can she give an assurance that, if the Government designate further outdoor spaces, this will be based on scientific evidence of harm?
I also have to admit a certain concern about messaging. We know that some people believe that vaping is as harmful as smoking, which is clearly a barrier to encouraging smokers to switch to vapes. If the Minister does not believe that the harm profile of passive vaping is the same as that of passive smoking, what is the rationale for linking smoke-free and vape-free places? If the Minister does indeed recognise that the harm profiles of these products are in fact different, does it not make sense that the places liable for designation under the Bill should in fact be different?
Amendment 183 is equally important and would prevent the Secretary of State from designating as vape-free any hospital or part of a hospital that provides mental health services. We have had the discussion before: in many mental health settings, many people have a higher risk of smoking than those in the general population. Vaping can be a vital tool in reducing harm, improving well-being and supporting gradual cessation. To impose a ban on such settings not only would be counterproductive but, in some cases, could be inhumane. It would risk forcing some of the vulnerable individuals in society back towards cigarettes and undermine the very public health objectives that this Bill seeks to promote.
I want to probe the Government on how the nuance will translate into practice. On an earlier set of amendments, the Minister said that
“vapes will still be able to be sold in healthcare settings via on-site shops. It is the sale through vending machines that we are seeking to prohibit in the Bill”.
When my noble friend Lord Moylan raised the issue of vapes for smoking cessation in hospitals, the Minister replied:
“We know that a number of mental health trusts, for example, are providing free vape starter kits as part of our national Swap to Stop campaign. The noble Lord’s point was well made, and we continue to work on that”.—[Official Report, 30/10/25; col. GC 232-33.]
Could the Minister clarify what was meant by “we continue to work” on that? Is she saying that all patients in mental health settings who want a cigarette or vape will be offered one of these free vape starter kits? If not, what is the solution that the Minister is working on to make sure that those who do want access to an e-cigarette or a vape can get one, as my noble friend Lord Moylan intended in his earlier set of amendments?
Amendment 184 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe simply suggests clear definitions for “public playground”, “provider of early years education” and “school” to ensure that any designations made under these powers are precise, transparent and legally consistent.
I turn briefly to Amendments 182 and 187 from my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister. They offer an opportunity to probe the Government on whether they intend to prohibit only those under the age of 18 from vaping on school premises or whether they have had any discussions with teachers’ organisations or perhaps trade unions on banning teachers and adult visitors from vaping on premises of schools and colleges. I believe that most if not all noble Lords agree that vapes offer smokers a pathway to quit smoking. We understand the concerns about children taking up vaping, so how do we get that balance in settings where there are children but also adults—some of whom, maybe after a stressful class, will want to turn to a cigarette or a vape?
I quickly turn to Amendment 182A in the name of my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising, which raises the important issue of age and responsibility. In spaces where we know that most people will be over 18, it makes sense that vaping should be permitted. I understand that there may be certain settings where people under 18 manage to creep in. I am sure that in our youth we all did that, although I have no evidence of my own past misdemeanours in that sense. What consideration has the Minister given to the challenge that the noble Lord has raised and what is the Government’s view on the potential harms that vaping in such a space could have? In other words, why do they believe that the Bill as drafted, particularly with respect to these issues on vaping, is necessary? I look forward to the answers from the Minister and I beg to move.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I rise briefly to address a couple of these amendments in a broad sense. Amendments 182 and 187 would ensure that all schools and colleges were vape-free and would require them to proactively implement policies as such. I draw here on my own experience from the Learn with the Lords scheme. I had a shadow from that scheme here in Parliament—a young woman of about 16 or so. She had been with me for about an hour when she said to me, in tones of total desperation, “I need a vape”. I confess that that is not something within my personal experience, and I am not entirely sure about where I took her, although it seemed an appropriate place and I did my best. But I think that we have to acknowledge that schools, colleges and other similar institutions will encounter people who have started vaping and are experiencing great difficulties with addiction to that vaping. I would want to keep it so that the school can make its own decisions on what is best for its own situation and its community, rather than trying to apply a blanket ban. We know what the ideal would be, but we have to think about the reality for head teachers and others who have to deal with that practical situation.
I also want to speak against Amendment 182A, which would allow vaping products in places where it is reasonable to expect that everyone present is over 18. I should declare another interest here. I must admit that I really do not enjoy walking down the street and getting a face-full of vaping fumes through no choice of my own. Many of the pubs, clubs and bars that are likely to be in this situation are already voluntarily vape-free. We do not want to force them to change the circumstances of what works for their patrons.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I shall start with Amendment 182A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, which replaces his withdrawn Amendment 180A. It seeks to specify that vaping should be allowed in locations where it is “reasonable to expect” that only people over 18 congregate. I believe this would limit the Government’s response under their powers in the Bill if future evidence emerged that action would be desirable. Given that parts of the Bill seek to limit any action that opens the way to under-18 vaping and to discourage those aged 18 to 24 from vaping, except as a smoking cessation tool, this amendment would appear to be in opposition to that objective, which I share.
I have commented before that many young people slip undetected into over-18 places—the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, has just accepted that that does happen now and then—so the amendment could undermine the Bill’s objective, which could be why the noble Lord has reworded it. However, many indoor settings already voluntarily designate their premises vape-free, and they may do so because many non-smokers find vaping as well as cigarette smoke offensive because of the smell. I am sure they would not have done that if it were bad for business. Any change in this situation would require further consultation, so perhaps that is what the Minister might say.
Going back to the beginning of the group, Amendments 181 and 184, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, seek to restrict the Government’s ability to act in future to three specific locations. I am glad that the noble Lord did not specify that hospitals should be designated vape-free, because vaping may be a valuable quit-smoking aid to patients. However, it does not seem to me that these places need to be specified in the Bill. There is going to be a lot more consultation, and I hope that evidence will come from the call for evidence.
Amendments 182 and 187, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, are unnecessary as schools already have the power to ban students bringing vapes on to their premises as they cannot have been obtained legally if the students are under 18. However, it is sad that many of them either do not do so or find it hard to enforce their ban, if they have one, for the reasons the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, has just mentioned. One has to have sympathy with young people who have managed to be hooked on nicotine so badly that they have to say, “I need a vape”, as she put it. I hope that schools in particular, where the pupils are under 18, will see it as their duty to discourage vaping among their pupils. In support of that, I would be sorry to see staff vaping on the premises because it is a very bad example.
There is a major problem with young people buying unlicensed vapes, some of which have been adulterated with THC or the drug spice, which is a dangerous development. The latter is particularly addictive and harmful, so I hope that schools would be active and vigilant on this matter. However, I think the Minister may tell us that more consultation is taking place on this issue, so I am content to wait for that.
I support the principle of Amendment 183, from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, which would prohibit the Government designating mental health trusts as vape-free. We must recognise the use of vaping in mental health and smoking cessation, alongside treatment, so the trusts should be able to make their own decisions about vaping on their premises. I very much hope that the Minister will reassure us that the Government do not have any intention of designating mental health trusts as vape-free areas. For all those reasons, and those given in previous debates, I would not support removing Clause 138 from the Bill. The public strongly support their opportunity to go into vape-free places, and many businesses have understood that already.
Lord Robathan (Con)
My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend Lord Kamall on the Front Bench. I have not taken part in these debates before, but I have to say that I find it quite disturbing that we should be making laws because perhaps we do not like walking down a street where people are puffing vapes. I do not, but there are lots of things I do not like that people do, and I am not going to ban them all—well, perhaps I would, actually, but I am not going to.
Similarly, if you cannot be hooked by passive vaping, as my noble friend Lord Kamall said, I am not quite sure why we are taking it so seriously. As I understand it, vaping is not addictive; nicotine is addictive, but vaping itself is a different matter. It also seems to me that we are legislating unnecessarily. I am afraid, to broaden the subject slightly, that this will lead to yet further influxes of cheap and nasty vapes, which may or may not be, as the noble Baroness just said, influenced by other matters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Let me first turn to the opposition to Clause 138 standing part of the Bill, which has been proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister. Clause 138 amends the Health Act 2006 to insert new provisions relating to vape-free places in England. These provisions allow the Secretary of State to designate certain places and vehicles as vape-free, but only where they are also smoke-free.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about evidence. The fact is that evidence is developing, as the noble Lord himself rightly acknowledged, but we do know that while vapes are less harmful than smoking, there is a reason why the Chief Medical Officer says:
“If you smoke, vaping is much safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape”.
Vapes are not harm-free; there are legitimate concerns regarding the unknown long-term health impacts of vaping. They produce aerosol that exposes people to nicotine and potential toxicants, which poses health risks to children and medically vulnerable people in particular; for example, they can trigger asthma attacks. It is therefore important and right—I say this to the noble Lord, Lord Robathan—that the Government act to protect more vulnerable groups from potential health harms. I should also say that evidence suggests that, in adolescence, the brain is more sensitive to the effects of nicotine, so there could be additional risks for young people compared to adults.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, many businesses and enclosed public places already have in place, on a voluntary basis, schemes to prohibit vape usage on their premises. We want to introduce legislative requirements to make it clear to the public where it is illegal to use vapes and to enable enforcement agencies to enforce accordingly. I know that noble Lords understand the reasons for wanting to be clear about what is and is not legal, and this Bill and the provisions in it are very much part of that.
Again, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, welcomed, the main answer to all the questions today— I will continue to go through the various amendments—is that we will be consulting on making indoor settings that are subject to existing smoke-free legislation vape free. The consultation in this area and beyond is crucial, because we also plan to consult on making some outdoor places where children are present vape free—for example, children’s playgrounds, and the outdoor areas of schools and early years settings.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about how we will recognise the difference between harms. I can assure him that this is an area we absolutely want to get right. We do want to ensure that adult smokers who are using vapes as quit aids are doing so in appropriate places, such that they do not return to smoking. That is exactly why we will consult before making regulations and carefully consider the responses to ensure the policy seeks the appropriate balance.
Amendment 182A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, would mean that some indoor areas, for example nightclubs, would not be able to be made vape free. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for her views on this. As I have already outlined, vapers pose potential risks to both users and non-users, especially indoors. We had a debate in an earlier group about the workability or otherwise of designating particular areas as able to police themselves. It is quite important to say to the Committee that the vast majority—around 90% of those over 16—do not currently vape. Just because someone is in an over-18 setting does not mean that they are content to be exposed to these second-hand harms.
As discussed, this is a particular concern for medically vulnerable people whose conditions may not be in the least visible to the vaper, who I am sure does not wish to cause harm—for example, those with asthma. Additionally, people who wish to vape will still be able to do so in outdoor hospitality settings—for example, in the outdoor smoking areas of an over-18 nightclub. We have been very clear that we will not be consulting on including those outdoor areas in the scope of vape- free places.
Ultimately, the Bill grants powers to make places vape free and does not itself make any place vape free. The consultation will ask questions relating to areas that should become vape free, any necessary exemptions and any additional evidence on the second-hand harms of these products. Therefore, in our view there is no change needed to the primary legislation.
It is appropriate now to turn to Amendments 181 and 184, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, which would seek to limit the locations that can be designated as vape free. As I have already outlined, the current power allows us to respond to evolving evidence at a later time and ensures the Bill is future-proof. The noble Lord asked about the process. I can confirm as I have done previously that the power for vape-free places will be through an affirmative regulation. That will mean, as the noble Lord knows, a debate in both places. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, talked about vape-free areas being specified in the Bill. I hope I have explained why that is not the case. It is particularly important as we talk about evolving evidence that we look to the future. That is why we will be consulting and why we will turn to regulations.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, mentioned vape-free schools and asked whether that measure applies to children or adults. I can confirm that it is about the area rather than the people in it. So there are no limitations on people of a certain age; it is the area that would be designated.
I turn to Amendments 182 and 187 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which relate to vape-free policies in schools and colleges in England that are made vape-free places. It is my view that these amendments are not necessary. As I have said, we have already made it clear that we will consult on making schools, sixth-form colleges and early years settings vape-free places. Public consultation will allow us to gather views from a wide range of stakeholders, including those who run education settings. Enforcement officers will have the power to issue on-the-spot fines or pursue convictions where they deem it necessary for the offence of using a vape in a vape-free place. However, we anticipate—this may be helpful to noble Lords—that there will continue to be a role for internal sanctions for pupils found vaping on the premises. Schools are already required to publish a behavioural policy.
In relation to education provisions for pupils on vaping, we have worked closely with the Department for Education to incorporate education on the risks of vaping and nicotine use in the recently updated relationships, sex and health education statutory guidance for schools and teachers; I am sure that the person referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, will benefit from that in future.
I appreciate the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and his intention in Amendment 183, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also spoke. I agree that it is important that patients receiving care in a mental health setting have access to appropriate smoking cessation tools; that is particularly true given that smoking rates among those with a long-term mental health condition are far higher than in the general population. As I have mentioned previously, in England, we are considering making inside hospitals—but not outside them—smoke-free. I appreciate and am alive to the fact that there are particular considerations in the case of mental health facilities, but I assure noble Lords that we are keen to get things right in this area and are going to follow the evidence. We want to ensure that vapes can continue to be accessible as an effective quitting aid for adult smokers; noble Lords have made strong and important points about this. As outlined, we believe that the details of any exemptions are best explored through the consultation process, although we understand the intention behind the amendment.
I hope that this provides reassurance and understanding to noble Lords that the settings that will be in scope of the vape-free policy will be fully considered by consultation and then considered under the affirmative procedure. I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response; I also thank all noble Lords who spoke on this group. I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that any further extension of the designation of vape-free places will be done via the affirmative procedure, which is very welcome.
I have a couple of outstanding questions; I suspect that the Minister and her department were not able to get the answers quick enough, thanks to the power of the internet or whatever, so I wonder whether the Minister could write to noble Lords on these matters. First, is there any evidence yet from studies of passive smoking in outdoor settings? As I said, the studies I looked at were all on indoor settings; nothing has been done on outdoor settings. It would be good to know what evidence the department currently has. I also ask the Minister to share that evidence, with the appropriate links, so that we can all understand it. usbI understand that the consultation is all about seeking further evidence, but it would be interesting to know what evidence the department currently has—on the understanding that the evidence is evolving, as the Minister rightly said.
“(c) whether it would be reasonable to expect that everyone present in that location is aged 18 or over.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would allow the use of heated tobacco products within locations where it is reasonable to expect that everyone present is over 18.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
My amendment seeks to allow ministerial discretion for heated tobacco products. As I have said previously, we know that vapes and heated tobacco products are much safer than smoked tobacco products. We need a regime of regulation that promotes switching where smokers are unable to stop. This small change may shift the dial in favour of switching. I hope that Ministers will consider this amendment in the constructive way in which it is meant.
I am trying to make a consistent point across all my amendments to improve the number of smokers switching to safer alternatives. We all know our doctors are often harsh in their advice; they will tell us that drinking alcohol is always unhealthy, even though many of us drink socially and are not unhealthy. The fact is that we need a system that encourages people to make healthier choices without riding roughshod over their personal liberties. That is what I am trying to propose. By allowing discretionary powers on spaces where everyone is reasonably expected to be over 18 in respect of heated tobacco, Ministers will be able to nudge people to make healthier choices, when they have found it impossible to quit smoking. I beg to move.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I will speak very briefly against all the amendments in this group. I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, about our understanding of heated tobacco products. I am drawing here, as I have been throughout Committee, on the excellent briefings from Action on Smoking and Health. I note its conclusion, that there is not currently good-quality evidence on the health harms of heated tobacco devices or their efficacy as a smoking cessation tool. Therefore, in that context, we need to be very cautious of the potential health impacts. The Bill as it stands is in the right place.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. In Amendment 184A, the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, seeks to exclude heated tobacco from the smoke-free generation objective of the Bill, to allow it in places where everyone is over 18. For this reason, and because of my lack of confidence that any location can be sure it is really only used by over 18s, I cannot support this amendment.
In Amendment 185, the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, seeks to exempt heated tobacco from being banned in uncovered hospitality areas, which parallels an earlier amendment about vaping. As smoking gradually declines, the Government may very well seek to make further restrictions, as the public will almost certainly become used to the lack of nicotine products in their environments, and they may rather like that situation. Therefore, the Government must be free to use their powers in the Bill to respond to the public’s changing attitudes on these issues.
Removing Clause 139 would prevent the Government from designating heated tobacco-free places at all. Many businesses have done this already, and any evidence that these products are being used as smoking cessation tools is likely to decrease over the years as the number of smokers decreases. That would therefore not be a good reason to prevent the Government from acting if they saw fit.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, my noble friends Lord Howard of Rising and Lord Udny-Lister, who is unfortunately not in his place, are to be thanked for enabling us to focus on the issues around the use of heated tobacco. We have touched on this subject at earlier stages but, when previously discussing heated tobacco, the Minister promised to write to noble Lords about the evidence that her department possesses of the harms caused by heated tobacco. I am sure that is high on her agenda, but the question is crucial in the context of these amendments since, whatever the answer is, it will have a direct bearing on the use of the Secretary of State’s powers to designate locations as heated tobacco-free.
There are various published studies, as she will know. A study published by UCL found that people who switched from cigarettes to heated tobacco had lower levels of exposure to harmful chemicals than those who kept smoking, but higher levels of these toxins than those who stopped using tobacco altogether, which I guess is not a surprising finding. Other studies state that it is too soon to know how using heat—not burn—products will affect someone’s health in the long term, since research looking at these tobacco products is still, I understand, in its early stages and, in the main, funded by the tobacco industry. We therefore need clear evidence, born of independent research, on both the relative harm of heated tobacco compared to burning tobacco, as well as the absolute levels of harm that result from its use.
I am a non-smoker. I understand the concern that heated tobacco should not be a loophole for large tobacco firms to get around the law, but I am also concerned that in the absence of long-term evidence, portraying heated tobacco as being in the same category as cigarettes carries the risk of failing to reduce harm for that small percentage of smokers who wish to quit but have not taken to vapes for one reason or another.
Pending fresh research findings, I think, alongside my noble friends, that there remains a legitimate question about how the Government intend to treat spaces, both indoors and outdoors, where heated tobacco is used, and about whether they believe there is a clear proven case for including heated tobacco in the generational ban. In particular, does the Minister consider uncovered outdoor areas to be different in this context from enclosed spaces, in terms of both health risk and social behaviour? As she knows, the hospitality industry has concerns about extending the indoor smoking ban to outdoor hospitality areas such as pub gardens, and I welcome the assurance she gave on that a few minutes ago. The indication from the Government thus far is that hospitality areas will not be caught by any outdoor ban, but if that is true of smoke tobacco, can the Minister confirm that there is no similar intention as regards the outdoor use of heated tobacco?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to limiting the Government’s ability to create heated tobacco-free places in England. I am grateful for all the contributions to the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, opposes Clause 139 standing part of the Bill. Clause 139 provides the power to designate certain places and vehicles in England as heated tobacco-free. Places can be designated heated tobacco-free only if they are smoke-free. As I have mentioned, we plan to consult on making heated tobacco-free all indoor places that are currently smoke-free. We also plan to consult on making certain outdoor spaces heated tobacco-free. As with smoke-free places, the consultation will cover children’s playgrounds, the outdoor areas of schools and early years settings, and areas outside healthcare settings where medically vulnerable people may be present.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked an important question about evidence, and I will write with more detail as soon as possible. However, I reiterate what I said in debates on previous groups and elsewhere: there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and all tobacco products are harmful, including heated tobacco products. I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Walmsley, for their supportive comments. Laboratory studies show evidence of toxicity from heated tobacco and that the aerosol generated by heated tobacco devices, like other forms of tobacco, contains carcinogenic compounds. Recent evidence has also indicated that exposure to second-hand emissions from heated tobacco products is associated with significant respiratory and cardiovascular abnormalities in bystanders.
The noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, also tabled Amendment 185. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked me to repeat—I am glad to do so—that, as I have made clear, we are not planning to consult on making outdoor hospitality settings in England heated tobacco-free.
Amendment 184A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, seeks to exempt areas where it would be reasonable to expect that only over-18s are present from any future restrictions on heated tobacco places. This amendment is similar to the one already discussed in relation to vape-free places, which would mean that some indoor areas, for example nightclubs, could not be made heated tobacco-free.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate and the Minister for her response. I hope she and her officials will take away some of the considered points made by noble Lords in this debate for consideration as we make further progress with the Bill. I hope the point about encouraging smokers to switch where they cannot quit will be taken on board. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“Strategy to reduce retail crime linked to tobacco and vaping products(1) The Secretary of State must prepare and publish a strategy to reduce offences against retailers of relevant products as a result of changes made by this Act.(2) The strategy must address—(a) violence and abuse against retail workers at work resulting from—(i) the refusal of sale of relevant products, and(ii) requests for identification by retail workers to a person attempting to buy relevant products;(b) theft of relevant products from retailers of relevant products, and(c) any other offence against retailers of relevant products relating to relevant products.(3) The strategy must be published before the end of the period of 12 months after the day on which this Act is passed and updated between 1 January 2027 and 1 January 2028.(4) In preparing the strategy the Secretary of State must consult—(a) retailers of relevant products,(b) representatives of retailers of relevant products,(c) elected local policing bodies, and(d) any other person the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to consult. (5) For the purposes of this section “retailers of relevant products” means a person who carries on a business involving the sale of relevant products by retail.(6) In this section—“elected local policing bodies” has the same meaning as section 101 of the Police Act 1996;“relevant products” means—(a) tobacco products,(b) tobacco related devices,(c) herbal smoking products,(d) cigarette papers,(e) vaping products, or(f) nicotine products;“retail workers at work” means a person who—(a) is working on or about retail premises, and(b) is working there for or on behalf of the owner or occupier of those premises, or is the owner or occupier of those premises.(7) In subsection (6) “retail premises” means—(a) premises used wholly or mainly for the purposes of the sale of anything by retail, or(b) premises used mainly for the purposes of the wholesale of anything, if the premises are also used for the purposes of the sale of anything by retail,and here “premises” include a stall or vehicle.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to publish a strategy to reduce retail crime against retailers of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Kamall and I have previously raised the concerns of retailers in relation to several aspects of this Bill. Amendment 188 is intended as a probing amendment to ask the Government whether they have any plans to work with retailers and other partners to develop and publish a strategy to reduce retail crime against retailers of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products.
Noble Lords will be aware that these retailers are often the most affected by retail crime. Their businesses are often small, independent stores that lack the means to hire security, as larger retailers are able to do. The size of these businesses also means that retail crime has more of an impact, due to smaller profit margins. On top of that, by the very nature of selling age-restricted products, the likelihood of confrontation is heightened by the increased interaction with customers. This problem is being exacerbated by the rampant rise in shoplifting over the past year. Shoplifting offences across England, excluding London, have risen by 15%, and, in London, the number is almost unbelievable: 54%. That figure is now at a 20-year high, costing retailers £2.2 billion in lost profits.
Retailers, both large and small, are being pummelled by an increased disregard for the rule of law and, very often, a lack of response from the authorities. The department’s impact assessment acknowledges this when it says that the Bill
“could lead to an increase in aggression and abuse towards retail workers”.
That is why, in Amendment 191, I suggest that the Government have a responsibility both to oversee the transition that they are mandating in the Bill and to provide suitable guidance. Whatever noble Lords’ views on the provisions of the Bill, this amendment re-emphasises the need for clear consultation and for the Government to work with retailers to address their concerns.
For that reason, I support the principle behind my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising’s Amendment 200A. The policy set out in the Bill to prohibit those aged under 18 from buying nicotine products can be enforced only by age-verification checks. Where technology is involved in such checks, this will cost retailers money. Smaller retailers will find this burden commensurately heavier. This probing amendment from my noble friend— I hope he will allow me to call it that—allows us to ask the Minister how the Government intend to lighten the burden on those retailers.
I beg to move.
Lord Howard of Rising (Con)
My Lords, my Amendment 200A touches on a different theme from the other amendments that I have tabled. As my noble friend Lord Howe commented, it is a probing amendment to test the Government’s attitude to small shops and the burdens that they face. I endorse the remarks made by my noble friend about shoplifting because it no longer seems to be a crime—you just go in and help yourself to what you want.
This amendment is focused on the burden placed on businesses by their need for age-verification technology. The businesses that will have to comply with this Bill are not just major supermarkets or established tobacco specialists; they are also corner shops and convenience stores up and down the country. These are small businesses on which local communities rely. They are run by local businessmen who provide employment in our villages and towns. They are a place where essential services, such as postal services and phone or bill payment services, can be accessed.
Any additional burden on our corner shops must be considered in that context. Can the Minister please set out what assessment the Government have made of the impact of this Bill on small businesses, especially convenience stores? Can she assure us that, if the impact on these businesses is shown to be overly burdensome following the passage of this Bill, Ministers will look closely at how to support convenience stores further by reducing the regulatory burden that they face? I should declare an interest in that I own a convenience store, although I do not run it.
It is essential that we do not proceed blindly without a proper understanding of the impact that this Bill will have on small businesses, so I hope that the Minister will be able to address my concerns fully in her closing remarks.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am very much in favour of these three amendments. As we come to the end of Committee, it is important that we consider some of the unintended consequences of this Bill, particularly in relation to retailers. In relation to Amendment 188 from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I stress in particular proposed new subsection (4)(a) and (b) on the need to consult retailers of relevant products and representatives of retailers of relevant products. This is key and would help to inform the guidance on implementation for retailers that is called for in Amendment 191.
I want to say something on consultation because, throughout Committee, whenever the word “consultation” has come up, the Minister has assured us that retailers have been consulted. I am not impugning her at all, but I do not think that the notion of widespread retail consultation is strictly accurate. Twenty witnesses were invited to give oral evidence to the Public Bill Committee, but the solitary witness from retail, the British Retail Consortium, represented large retailers. More broadly, a wide range of organisations representing independent shopkeepers and related stakeholders such as pubs and hospitality supplied written evidence. Nineteen of the witnesses called to give oral testimony represented health charities, public health practices, health regulation and local government officials. That is a distorting set of witnesses in relation to what will have a big impact on different sectors such as retail and hospitality. It distorts the evidence base and the information that the Government are working with, and it shapes the narrative away from one of the sectors that is affected by this legislation.
The sort of retailers that are caught up in and detrimentally affected by the Bill are thousands of small retail outlets, mini marts and convenience stores, often family businesses with up to half run by British Asians—the sort of shops that are the heart and soul of so many communities and are especially important in rural areas. They are a vital part of local economies, especially in areas where large corporate retail companies do not have much of a presence. I have been talking to a number of these retailers, and I think that it would be useful for the Government to talk to them to get an accurate picture of their fears and concerns and, indeed, to listen to some very imaginative and creative solutions they have to the challenges presented by the Bill. I recommend to the Minister that her department and officials start by reading a useful academic essay by Maged Ali, reader at Essex Business School, University of Essex, entitled The Backbone of the UK Under Attack: The Economic Effects of Tobacco Generational Sales Ban on Retail SMEs because it provides a lot of rich detail.
The economic effects are very important for Amendment 200A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, on the need to provide financial assistance and grants for the acquisition of age-verification technology. I stress how important this is. The sector is largely driven, as I have indicated, by independent retailers who run 71% of convenience stores. They are self-financing individuals who will have to invest their own money to enforce policies that, as we have heard from the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will mean them receiving potentially more abuse, intimidation and violence in terms of ID checks. They certainly need some help in dealing with all this.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for introducing this group. I will speak in specific terms against Amendment 188 and very strongly against Amendment 200A.
Starting with Amendment 188, I declare my position as a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Customer Service. I note the terrible figures from the Institute of Customer Service earlier this year—these are from people who work in all areas of public-facing customer service—which showed that 43% of those surveyed had faced some incident of customer hostility in the previous year. That figure was up nearly 20%. Some 21% of the people surveyed had also faced physical threats while they were doing customer-facing roles.
As the noble Earl said, we have a real problem with shoplifting, but we also have a problem across the board. I do not think the best way to approach this is to look specifically at retailers of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products. There is a need for government action, and I have been working with the Institute for Customer Service more broadly, as I have in the past on other legislation, to tackle this. It does not make a lot of sense to regard this as a discrete problem; it needs a much broader angle of attack.
I am very strongly against Amendment 200A, which would establish a government grant scheme to subsidise the cost of age-verification technology to reduce the financial burden on smaller retailers. I absolutely agree that the burden should not fall on smaller retailers. However, I point out that—this is based on work earlier this year by the Social Market Foundation—the big four tobacco companies make £900 million in profits annually and that their average profit margin, looking at the cost of producing and distributing tobacco products versus the price they charge to whole- salers, is 50%. There is no other product that has anything like that kind of return.
Due to being involved here, I have not had a chance to look closely at what happened in the Budget today but, so far as I have been able to discover, a fairly standard increase in tobacco duty is coming in at 6 pm today. However, the Chancellor has not, it seems, followed the recommendation of the Social Market Foundation to put a levy on tobacco products on some of those windfall profits. At the time, that was suggested for health measures, but it could indeed go into such a measure as this. It is very clear that the merchants of death should be paying for the costs associated with their products much more broadly than this. But, certainly in the context of this amendment, they should meet any burden of compliance so that it does not fall on the smaller retailers.
Lord Stevens of Birmingham (CB)
My Lords, I hesitate to interject at this late stage of Committee, but I just respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who had concerns that many of the organisations giving evidence previously on the retail question were from health-related charities, and I declare my own non-pecuniary interest as chairman of Cancer Research UK.
I just inject a note of caution about relying too heavily on some of the trade associations for the small retailers that she describes, given that they have some financial vested interests. The organisation that she cited, I noticed on their website, has received a sponsorship support from Japan Tobacco International. Another major retail association declares on its website that it has received funding from Philip Morris, Japan Tobacco, Imperial Tobacco and British American Tobacco. Therefore, notwithstanding the need to consult retailers directly, I think that some of these trade associations may have a conflict of interest.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about how important it is that retailers of all kinds feel supported as we move into the transition to a smoke-free generation. Those who operate legally and who will obtain a licence to operate under the new rules will want to see the Government doing everything that they can to attack the illicit trade that undermines the profits of law-abiding businesses.
They also need protection from the wave of shoplifting, which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, talked about, which eats into their profits and sometimes puts them in physical danger. It is quite possible that progress towards gradually raising the age below which the retailers may not sell tobacco products could exacerbate this situation unless action is taken. Age verification could be seen as a problem or a solution. However, the need for age verification is already quite common and it falls upon the consumer, not the retailer. I have to verify my own age when I buy a senior railcard to use on the train, although my grey hair means that I am not challenged when I want to buy a bottle of wine. However, the fact remains that, when I have alcohol in my basket at the checkout, a member of staff is entitled to verify that I am over 18—in fact, they take one look, and they click on the terminal. They do not ask for my birth certificate, but of course they might if I looked under 18, which I do not.
However, the situation will soon change for young people only a year apart in age. Having said that, young people are already quite used to having to verify that they are over 18 when buying a drink or a packet of cigarettes or vapes. What do they do now? They use a digital age-verification tool already, and some bars issue their own card once they have verified the age of their regular customers. It therefore would not be unreasonable, and would be helpful to the retailers, if a range of age-verification mechanisms could be available to customers who would then have to show one of them in order to protect the retailers from inadvertently committing an offence. They have to show that they are over 18 now, so why not that they are 19 a year after Royal Assent or 20 the year after that?
It may be a very good idea for the Government to carry out more research on this and publish a strategy, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has proposed in Amendment 188. But the public are not the only ones who need guidance and information about the law well before it comes into operation; how much more important is it for retailers? We have already debated my noble friend Lady Northover’s amendment about the need for a communications strategy, so I am not sure how much Amendment 191 would add to that, but it is a useful probe.
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, I do not support Amendment 200A from the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising. I do not see why taxpayers should foot the bill for creating age-verification mechanisms. I suspect that individual customers will obtain their own digital age-verification mechanism and that inventive companies will produce them and make them readily available. Of course, the vape manufacturers may also produce age-gated products, so perhaps it should be the tobacco industry that foots the bill because of its very large profit margins. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s views on this issue.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
If the Committee will allow me, I want to come back on the point about retail organisations. I am more than happy to acknowledge that all sorts of organisations are not quite as independent as they seem. In fact, many health charities over the years feel more like Astroturfed organisations, because most of their money comes from government, one way or another. All I am pointing out is that the idea of a kind of neutral body of representative organisations is something that could be queried.
It is fair enough about trade associations, but my general point—rather than trying to imply that there is something dodgy about the associations I mentioned because of any association with tobacco—is that tens of thousands of small retailers are tearing their hair out about the implications of this legislation. That is reflected in a wide range of ways, not just by briefings I have had from trade associations, of which I have not actually had very many. I have investigated this myself; I have talked to quite a number of them and met others, and I have read around. That is why doing research for a piece of legislation matters.
There is a danger of saying, “We can’t talk to the trade associations for small convenience stores, because the ones we know of have some association with or get some funding from big tobacco”, but maybe that is because they are often sidelined and ignored by other organisations, and they should not be. The Government could actually take them seriously and not have them treated as though they were a kind of pariah one can ignore. These are the small players; this is your local corner shop. How do they get a voice here? I thought I would try to give them a voice, and it is not appropriate to imply that somehow giving them a voice is something to do with representing big tobacco. It is completely unrelated to the general point I was making and, as I have pointed out, organisations such as ASH get their funding from somewhere. That is not necessarily big tobacco, but it is big government.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
Having said that, does the noble Baroness agree that it would be unfortunate to see any organisations fearmongering among small businesses that already have a lot of concerns, and a lot to face when this Bill comes into operation?
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
It would also seem that misrepresenting them in the pages of the Grocer by saying that they absolutely love this legislation is the opposite of fearmongering. That is called misinformation; it is illegitimate and not fair. I do not think any fearmongering needed to happen. As it goes, the Government recognise that small retailers are under pressure, which is why they are trying to bring in legislation so that there will be a special offence if you assault or attack a retail worker. I always hoped the law would do that anyway and that we would not need an extra law, so it makes me nervous that we would do it.
That is not because of fearmongering but because on the ground, in small shops up and down high streets throughout the land, things are pretty grim. The BBC report I recently mentioned about the illegal shops that are springing up was also an indication that a lot of these small shops are saying, “We don’t even mind being licensed. We don’t want to be part of a world that’s ignored”. All I am saying is that they have not had consultation with the Government; they do not know how to do it, and they cannot afford the big bucks—perhaps they get a bit of sponsorship, I do not know—but somebody should listen to them. They should go out and talk to them; go round with a billboard and just chat to them. I am suggesting that we do not pass this legislation without having a chat with them. I get annoyed when people say that we have already consulted retail, yet nobody has had a chat with the people who will be really affected by this.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for this discussion. I say at the outset that, although I do not support accepting the amendments, I have a lot of sympathy with a number of the points made, which I will come on to. However, while I completely understand the pressure on small retailers—I will come on to that—I struggle to accept that the Bill is the fount of all evil, which I feel is the direction we are going in. I certainly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who spoke about the need to see the Bill in its overall context. I associate myself with those comments.
I absolutely agree with the intention behind Amendment 191, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and introduced by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I hope I can reassure noble Lords that the Government are committed to supporting businesses to implement the measures in the Bill, which much of this discussion has been about. As I have said previously, we will continue —it is a continuing thing that is not in the past—to work closely with retail bodies such as the British Retail Consortium and the Association of Convenience Stores on the implementation of the measures, which will include the development of guidance.
I heard the concern of noble Lords about what guidance will be given. Again, I understand those points but, to say it in other words, we will support retailers through this transition. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, mentioned, what is being asked of retailers is not unusual for them; they are very familiar with age verification. I will come back to that later. The measures in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will come into force across a range of dates and therefore it is important that the associated guidance is available at the appropriate time. In other words, there will be time to make this transition and there will be support for that. We are firmly committed to publishing the guidance in a timely manner.
Turning to Amendment 188, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, I say to nearly all noble Lords who have spoken that, although I understand the intention of the amendment, it is unnecessary. As noble Lords have acknowledged, the Government are already taking action to tackle the absolutely unacceptable rise in retail crime. The Government will not stand for violence and abuse of any kind against shop workers. Everybody has a right to feel safe at their place of work and we have long championed specific protections for retail workers.
To protect the hardworking and dedicated staff who work in stores, the Crime and Policing Bill introduces a new offence of assaulting a retail worker, which the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to. The Bill also removes legislation which makes shop theft of goods to the value of £200 or below a summary-only offence. That sends a clear message that any level of shop theft is illegal and will be taken seriously. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Lord, Lord Howard.
Alongside legislative action, we are also providing over £7 million over the next three years to support multiple policing bodies to help to tackle retail crime. As I have mentioned, we will continue to work closely with retailers and will utilise the lead-in time to best support them in preparing for and implementing the measures in the Bill. This will include government communications and information campaigns to inform both the public and retail workers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, asked what assessment the Government have made of the impact on small businesses. Page 82 of the impact assessment specifically addresses this. As noble Lords are aware, an impact assessment should be expected and is required for any Bill. That means that the Regulatory Policy Committee also took a view; it published an opinion on the impact assessment and provided a fit-for-purpose rating. This included a green rating for the assessments of small and micro businesses’ assessments. I hope that will be useful.
I turn to Amendment 200A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard. This would require the Government to create a financial assistance scheme specifically to subsidise the cost of purchasing age-verification technology to enforce on the sale of nicotine products. I heard the comments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Bennett, who spoke against that amendment.
There are no plans to mandate the use of age-verification technologies to enforce the age of sale of nicotine products. It will be for businesses to decide how they ensure that they sell only to people 18 years or over, including whether to use age-verification technology to support them in this. As I mentioned earlier, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, checking that a customer is over a certain age is a well-established and well-trodden path for retailers. They should continue to take reasonable steps and exercise due diligence to ensure that they do not sell products to anyone underage. Most retailers already follow recommended practice, and I am grateful to them; they regularly ask for identification from customers to verify their age.
To provide clarity for retailers on the types of ID that can be used, the Bill provides powers to specify in regulations the steps that may be taken to verify a customer’s age and satisfy the age of sale defence. This will include the types of digital identities that can be used, and work will continue with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, which is leading on this work. I emphasise that the Government are absolutely committed to supporting retailers through the changes brought in by this legislation, including through the publication of clear guidance in which they will be fully involved.
I hope that I have provided helpful reassurances and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate, including the Minister for her reply. Perhaps I could repeat that my amendment was intended as a probe to raise a set of general concerns surrounding the retail sector. I was reassured by the Minister’s reply, including her references to the provisions of the Crime and Policing Bill. But we need to bear in mind, as we debate the Bill, that retailers are not the source of the problem that the Bill seeks to address—yet they will be the ones to lose out.
The Bill is projected to cost retailers more than £1 billion in profits over the next 30 years, plus what I am sure will be a considerable amount more from the reduced footfall that many will see over time. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, was right: there is considerable worry in the sector, which is exacerbated by the uncertainty surrounding the timetable for the Bill’s implementation. It would be helpful, perhaps when we reach the next stage of the Bill, for the Minister to give us an idea of how the Government intend to proceed as regards the processes of consultation—consideration of submissions, as well as the actual implementation—and what the outline timetable will look like. The transition needs to be as inclusive and smooth as possible, and practical guidance and support will be essential, especially for small retailing businesses. I have no doubt that the Government have this in mind, but we may need to return to it on Report, just to underline the point. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Lansley
“Independent expert panel on vaping(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must establish an expert panel, consisting of members independent from the production, distribution, supply or sale of vaping or nicotine products.(2) The expert panel constituted under subsection (1) must consist of members nominated by the Secretary of State, whom the Secretary of State considers to have relevant expertise in relation to—(a) the health effects of vape use or of nicotine addiction,(b) consumer behaviour in respect of vaping or nicotine use, or(c) the economic effects of the market for vaping and nicotine products.(3) The expert panel must report to Parliament not less frequently than annually incorporating evidence relating to—(a) the health effects of the use of vaping or nicotine products,(b) the supply and use of such products by consumers, and(c) the impacts of regulations made under this Act on the supply and use of vaping and nicotine products.(4) The expert panel may make in its report such recommendations relating to the use of powers under this Act, in respect of vaping and nicotine products, as the panel considers to be beneficial in the light of the evidence they have identified.(5) In making regulations under this Act in regard to vaping products and nicotine products, the Secretary of State and Ministers for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland must have regard to the reports of the expert panel and their recommendations.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new clause seeks to provide a continuing source of evidence to support the future implementation of the regime for vaping and nicotine products.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to the last group of amendments in Committee. I hope that the smiles evident on the faces of Members, because we have reached this point, will encourage a positive response to this final amendment to be debated.
This amendment is rather neat in the way it fits in at the end of our discussions. In listening to the debates on this Bill—particularly in relation to vaping and nicotine products—we have heard on many occasions, not least from the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, an emphasis on the requirement for the production of evidence. The Minister rightly said that the Government are undertaking a research programme—that is a good thing—but we need to emphasise that we are not simply strengthening the tobacco control regime and seeking to create another regime that parallels it; we are seeking to create a regime that is particular to the circumstances of vaping and nicotine products. They should not be treated as the same as tobacco, nor should they be treated the same as drink—they should be treated in their own terms. What I hope we might consider at this stage in Committee is that, on Report, we will increasingly identify how the vaping and nicotine products regime should be justified in its own terms—that is, not referencing the other regimes, with which parallels have been drawn, but looking at what is appropriate in relation to these products, their circumstances and the evidence pertaining to them, as well as how the regime should be established.
Amendment 197 is structured to say that there should be an independent expert panel. Why do I think this would be particularly helpful? First, the requirement for independence is illustrated in the amendment itself, in that it will not include those people who are responsible for the production, supply, distribution or sale of vaping and nicotine products. Happily, the industry is supportive of this, as it recognises the value of not seeing the advice that is given to government and Parliament—and, indeed, the advice that will then, I hope, be used as a basis for explaining in public communications what steps are being taken and why. As the discussion we just had demonstrated, these things should not be trammelled by being directly involved with the people who benefit, financially and otherwise, from the advice that is given. So independence is a first, straightforward step.
Secondly, this is not simply a scientific panel. It is really important that we deliver into the regime as much evidence as we can about health harms and the scientific basis for understanding the impacts of vaping products and nicotine addiction over time. But, as the amendment makes clear, we should also include in the expert panel people who understand all the behavioural science aspects of trying to structure a regime that is about seeking to influence behaviour.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I have not always historically been an enthusiast for experts dictating policy, but I am enthusiastic about this amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley.
Particularly in relation to policy or legislation related to public health, there is an awful lot of evidence swapping, people citing data, and so on and so forth, then accusations of not being able to trust that data. It would be very helpful to have a genuine independent academic body looking at some of these things, that we could maybe all trust a little—or even look sceptically at—but which actually digs into the evidence. Many of my friends are academics; any research can be advocacy research. None the less, it has to be there in the public arena for us to examine it. It is not just data and numbers.
This is important because earlier today, the Minister rightly said that we are going to follow the evidence, yet we had a serious conversation about whether there should be regulation to ban second-hand vaping fumes. The explanation for the fact there is no evidence of that being harmful was that it is evolving evidence, evolving evidence being the unknown, unknown approach, as far as I can see. I want to Cancer Research here because this is what you do when you are not quite sure how to counter somebody saying this is evidence. It said:
“Further research is needed to understand the health effects of vaping”,
which I accept,
“however”,
there is currently no good
“evidence”,
that
“second hand vapour is harmful”.
However, we have managed to have a conversation as though, even though there is no evidence, it probably is, or it could be. I think that discredits the notion of evidence-based policy. There are also different kinds of academic studies. I was pleased to hear the idea of behavioural studies. At Queen Mary University, for example, they have done a lot of work on vaping, and all their studies suggest that vaping is not a gateway to smoking. I think that the Government need to consider such things. There are a large number of qualified specialist academics who are researching not just the health impacts of vaping but a whole range of how vaping is used. I would like that somehow to be acknowledged in the Bill and for that group of people not to be ignored.
As we are at the end of Committee, sometimes in this Bill I have argued in defence of vaping as a smoking cessation tool, because that is how I have used it. However, I have felt a little uncomfortable about the way that it is assumed that, unless it is a smoking cessation tool, there is something wrong with it. I wanted to query whether that is true. Have the Government got a view of a recreational habit? Why would the Government choose to try to overregulate something that is just a recreational choice? Some people might start vaping who have not smoked. It might be that, by vaping, they will not start smoking.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I just think we must not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about a highly addictive product and there is a role for the Government in ensuring protection from giant multinational companies trying to hook people on highly addictive products that we know do them harm.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I want to say that I understand some of the addiction points in relation to young people in particular. I asked in an earlier group in Committee if this Bill was tackling addiction per se as a problem. There are things that we know are addictive—for example, nicotine. I am simply asking the question about what it is we are trying to tackle. I am asking this because, when we are talking about adult freedoms and choices, it is not just enough to cite medical evidence. That is why I want the expert panel to really assess the medical evidence and behavioural points. That is where I was going. I am cautioning against seeing everything through the prism of expertise as medical expertise.
As it is the last time I will speak in this stage, I thought I would end on some behavioural insights. Since we last met, the BBC has rewritten its Christmas adaptation of Julia Donaldson’s book over its fears that it would encourage children to smoke. It is The Scarecrows’ Wedding, which as noble Lords will know, features a villain scarecrow called Reginald Rake who, lighting a cigar, accidentally starts a fire. There has been something of a kerfuffle, and the BBC decided that this had to be rewritten. It sounds like some Daily Mail story—how ridiculous, PC gone mad and all the rest of it.
For the purposes of this amendment, a colleague of mine who works in media literacy made the point that the irony is that The Scarecrows’ Wedding is a perfect example of a book for young people that puts people off smoking. Betty O’Barley, who is another scarecrow by the way, is so horrified at the villain, Reginald Rake, smoking that she keeps saying to him “smoking is bad for you”. The whole point about Reginald Rake is that he is the villain of the story. The irony of this is that a media literacy expert makes the point that the BBC’s rewriting of this is completely counterproductive in relation to messaging. I say that because I think it is a bit more complicated than just swapping numbers around. An expert panel, looking at the unintended consequences of well-meaning policy, would not do any harm as we finish Committee on this legislation.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lord, I want to add a brief footnote to the speech made by my noble friend Lord Lansley asking for this independent expert panel on vaping.
It seems to me, from looking back at history, that we used to have exactly such a panel because, when we had Public Health England, it published a series of reviews on vaping with precisely the terms of reference that my noble friend mentioned; Public Health England was replaced in 2021, I think, by the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities. At that point, the series of reviews seemed to come to an end because, in September 2022, the OHID published
“a final annual update in the current series of evidence reviews about health harms of vaping by leading independent tobacco experts”.
However, if you look at that final report, it makes the case for what my noble friend has said.
First, it refers to the limited evidence on flavourings, clearly implying that more research should be done there. The final point was in its overall conclusion, which was that
“more standardised and consistent methodologies in future studies would improve interpretation of the evidence”.
It is not quite clear to me who will actually do that.
I note that, at the end of Second Reading, the Minister referred to some studies. She said that the Government had
“already commissioned a 10-year study to investigate the long-term effects of vaping on the health of 100,000 young people”.—[Official Report, 23/4/25; col. 743.]
I am not sure, however, that that is quite the same as what my noble friend asked for.
There seems to be a gap now, in that we no longer have the PHE/OHID reviews. We may have to wait 10 years for the study I just mentioned. The case that my noble friend has made for an independent panel on vaping seems to fill that gap; I hope that the case he made will have support from the Minister.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I add my support for this amendment, which seems very sensible. When we have an amendment in the names of both the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, we should all be looking at it very seriously indeed.
I have never smoked and never vaped but I remember, when vaping started, being absolutely delighted because it got rid of the smell of smoke whenever you went to places. There was a general feeling that vaping was better than smoking. I still feel that very strongly, but I accept that there is no evidence to tell us what is going to happen in the long term. I also think that things change; there is more research going on in all sorts of areas to do with vaping, and it just seems sensible that we have some form of expert panel.
I very much accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said about the word “experts”. We need to look carefully at who would be the experts on this but, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, this might be something on which there could be discussion before Report so that there is agreement on the kinds of expert that we want. What we do not want is for them all to come from the same aspect of research in a particular academic area. As we come to the end of this Bill, I really do think that the Minister should see this as something that she could accept and which would be very sensible.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, for Amendment 197 and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, for the robust debates that we have had during Committee; I thank the Minister and all noble Lords for that. I want to say just one thing in response to something that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, just said. There is something wrong with vaping in the very limited circumstances when it hooks a 12 year-old on to something very addictive, which may last for the rest of their life—the noble Baroness did concede that point.
I turn to the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, recognises that evidence and public opinion are likely to move forward as the measures in this Bill are implemented over a period of time. While the harms of smoking tobacco are well researched and evidenced, the impact or benefits of vapes and other nicotine products as smoking cessation tools are not yet so well evidenced. Besides, we can expect innovation in this area as the tobacco companies try to protect their profits. We must keep up with that. As the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, just mentioned, Public Health England used to publish regular reviews on the impacts of vaping, but this has not continued; in any case, the reviews need to be a bit wider than vaping because we do not know what products are coming down the track.
The noble Lord is asking for an independent expert panel. I would certainly expect the Government continually to provide evidence themselves as they put the wide powers in this Bill into operation. However, just as the independent Climate Change Committee is well trusted in respect of the advice it gives to the Government, based on a wide range of scientific evidence—the Government benefit from that—so an expert advisory committee on the future implementation of the new regime for nicotine and vaping products, quite independent of the tobacco and vapes industry, would add to the Government’s confidence and to public confidence.
I do not want to predict what the findings of such an expert panel would be, but its deliberations could be very helpful when the operation of the Bill is reviewed at any point in future, as suggested by my noble friend Lord Russell in his Amendment 195. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, suggested a five-year review. However, it will be very important that its deliberations and advice to the Government are totally transparent. If that were not the case, it would not command the respect of the public, the research community or anybody else. I am sure that that is the noble Lord’s intention. This idea is well worth consideration by the Minister. I am sure that there will be more discussions about it, perhaps offline, and I look forward to her reply.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, the Committee will be grateful to my noble friend, with his considerable experience in health policy, for the clear and cogent way in which he introduced his amendment. I am very supportive of the principles behind the amendment, as it seeks to ensure that decisions taken after the passage of the Bill are informed by robust, independent evidence and that Parliament is equipped with the relevant and authoritative information it needs to provide proper oversight of the regime for vaping and nicotine products, information that is constantly updated as the body of evidence evolves.
Critically, this principle applies equally to the Government. Proposed new subsection (5) in the amendment would require Ministers, when making regulations under the Act, to have regard to the proposed panel’s reports and recommendations. That is a sensible idea. My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham was right to remind us that there has for some time been a gap in the public health mechanisms regarding the production of such reports. If we were to recreate a mechanism of the kind suggested, the regulatory frame- work would evolve in response to the realities of science and the market rather than outdated information.
It is also important to recognise, as the amendment implicitly does, that although our primary concern here is health, regulation in this space cannot be viewed in isolation from the wider economy. When sales of currently legal products are restricted or prohibited, this inevitably impacts businesses, consumers and, sometimes, wider society, and those economic effects can themselves have unintended consequences for public health and people’s lives. There is also plenty of evidence of unintended consequences and the effectiveness of previous episodes of prohibition. The risk of a rise in consumption of illicit products is an obvious example, as is misinformation propounded on social media. The Government should make and review decisions with as clear a view as possible about those sorts of trade-offs.
For those reasons, I hope the Government will take on board the very sensible suggestion contained in this amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for this debate, which concludes the work of the Committee. As I have said before, I certainly share the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, who tabled this amendment, to ensure that regulations are based on the best available evidence. I appreciate the consideration he has given to the amendment and the reason he put it forward.
I say in response that we continue to monitor emerging evidence, which we have much discussed, on vapes and nicotine products, including commissioning independent research through the National Institute for Health and Care Research. For example, we commissioned a comprehensive analysis of all youth vaping studies—referred to in the debate—which was published recently, and a five-year-long living evidence review that will collate the latest and most robust research into the health impact of vaping. This living evidence review is accompanied by a scientific advisory panel, which includes independent experts, appointed independently from the Government on merit, who the Government can call on for advice on the latest evidence. Further, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned, earlier this year we announced a landmark 10-year study that will include in its investigations the long-term health effects of vaping on young people’s health.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that misperception of the harms of vaping is of concern; I take that point. Vaping absolutely can play a role in helping adult smokers to quit, as we have discussed, but children should not be vaping and nor should non-smokers. We are committed to carefully considering the scope of restrictions, to avoid unintended consequences and the misperception of harms, which is an area for further work.
We also fund a vaping expert panel, which provides valuable guidance for trading standards professionals on the enforcement of regulations. Under many of the powers in the Bill there is a requirement to consult before making regulations and, on 8 October, we published a call for evidence on issues where more evidence is needed before we can consult on specific proposals. We will monitor the impacts of measures brought in by the Bill and subsequent regulations. We will also be able to update regulations in future to ensure that policy is responsive to evolving evidence, should this be necessary.
It is our view that we have access to appropriate expert advice, which I know is the noble Lord’s intention, and we will consider the best available evidence in making regulations. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all those who contributed to the debate. It is both helpful and timely at the conclusion of Committee to have exactly this debate. In a funny way, perhaps we should have had it at the beginning, because it helped to fill out some of the details of the ways in which the evidence base for the vaping and nicotine product regime will be assessed and understood.
Baroness Hoey
(1A) Parts 1 to 3 may not come into force until the Secretary of State commissioned and published the findings of an independent legal opinion showing that these parts are fully compatible with the Windsor Framework and consistent with the Tobacco Products Directive of the European Union (2014/40/EU).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to prevent parts 1 to 3 of the Bill coming into force until the Secretary of State has considered and demonstrated that this would be fully compatible with the Windsor Framework and the Tobacco Products Directive.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
I think it will be helpful to bring the Committee very briefly up to date on what I raised. This amendment is crucial to this Bill because it is basically about whether we can implement it because of the Windsor Framework. I thought it would be helpful for noble Lords to know that four European Union countries have now put in detailed opinions to the European Commission that His Majesty’s Government now have a few months to respond to. The spokesman for the European Union said:
“It is now for the UK in respect of Northern Ireland to report on the action it proposes to take in view of the detailed opinions. The Commission will comment on that reaction”.
I am trying to impress again that what has gone right through this Bill is the question of whether, in the end, a generational ban can be implemented in Northern Ireland. The Minister has been told again that she has to meet me. She has been told by the Attorney-General. The Attorney-General has finally written a letter to me, not via his secretary, saying that, again, he will not be commenting, even though he is the Advocate General for Northern Ireland and the Attorney-General, and that he wants a meeting where the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, will respond to all the legal points. I thought that might be helpful. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin) (Lab)
The amendment has been moved. Does anyone else want to speak to it? If no one does, then we have had the debate. Does the noble Baroness wish to withdraw the amendment?