Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Tuesday 13th October 2026

(began 1 hour, 25 minutes ago)

14:38

Introduction(s): Lord Leunig and Baroness Usher

14:49

Lord Black of Brentwood (Conservative)

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>> I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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My Lords, the latest analysis of 2025 data from the Fracture Liaison Services database shows that the number of Fracture Liaison Services in England has increased since 2024, from from 73 to 78. The database does not provide monthly data on the number of Fracture Liaison Services, so we are unable to provide information on how many new services have opened since July

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2024. My Lords, at the general election, 73 Fracture Liaison Services covered half the country. Services covered half the country. The incoming government pledged to deliver national roll out to every part of England by 2030. In other part of England by 2030. In other words, doubling that number to more than 130. And we all cheered. But today, nearly midway through the Parliament, that figure is, the noble Lady said, stands at just 78. A woeful increase of just five. A woeful increase of just five.

Given the anaemic rate of progress, can the noble Lady tell us in very simple terms what concrete action the government will take to deliver the remaining 50 plus new FLS by 2030? How that will be funded and when we will get the implementation plan we've been promised.

14:51

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, the commitment remains the same as the noble Lord will have seen most recently outlined in the seen most recently outlined in the Women's Health Strategy. We are taking a whole pathway approach of taking a whole pathway approach of fracture prevention, improving access to diagnosis, adopting effective treatments, and encouraging local systems to develop services to identify those at the highest rate of fracture. The noble Lord I know, and I thank him for his strength of feeling on this, knows that I cannot offer an implementation plan exactly as he would like, but I hope that this shows the progress that we will continue to make.

14:51

Baroness Pidgeon (Liberal Democrat)

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Fracture Liaison Services can prevent further fractures and help prevent further fractures and help people remain independent. What assessment has the government made of whether rollout could actually

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of whether rollout could actually be accelerated, and what would need to happen to achieve full coverage before 2030? Yeah.

14:52

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Good point. also highlights community based models of fracture prevention services, which will be very much at the core of neighbourhood health services, which is one of the key changes that we are making. I think it's important to emphasise, as I've done before at this Dispatch Box, that decisions are rightly made at a local level and that is how the local populations are best served, and that will continue to be the case.

14:52

Baroness Murphy (Crossbench)

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The my noble, my noble friend, knows that leaving it to local knows that leaving it to local services is simply not providing. >> Labour with the crossbench. Next,

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then we'll hear the Labour benches. My Lords. Fractures of the hip in old people in old age are killers. Up to 25,000 older people die every year after a hip fracture, usually several years before. There are a lot of time. Does it not seem to you that we should give some more energy to getting these Fracture Liaison Services, which are incredibly cheap, up and running in every district? Scotland has done it. Northern Ireland has done it.

I don't understand why England and Wales can't do it too.

14:53

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Amen. >> Well, we are extending services and the noble Ladies observation is quite right about the implication of not dealing with it. But that is why I talked about that whole pathway of fracture prevention. And for example, on prevention, we've invested £2.6 million in 20 new state of the art Dexa scanners across the country. And that builds on the first wave of investment of 1.9 in 13 of these last year. That massively increases the capacity. And I should say, I do share with noble Lords the wish to see us do as much as we can, but that is why we're taking the whole approach to this on prevention, on diagnosis and treatment.

14:54

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Labour)

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My Lords, my noble friend knows >> My Lords, my noble friend knows that we simply won't reach the target without a push from government. Leaving it to local services simply isn't going to do services simply isn't going to do it. When she's finished with the Second Reading of the health debate Second Reading of the health debate today, I will be tabling an amendment to make sure that there is a plan to reach the implementation day, so I hope she will then engage with us at the point of the amendment so we really can make progress on this.

14:54

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, I'm grateful, my noble friends. Allow me to complete friends. Allow me to complete Second Reading today, which I look forward to doing, but I don't share forward to doing, but I don't share my noble friend's feeling that we will not be providing services. As will not be providing services. As I said, the commitment is there, and I should say that the department is working with NHS England to ensure that secondary fracture prevention does remain a priority, and we're doing this in several ways, including ensuring that guidance is regularly reviewed and that we can improve data, and I will be very pleased to share further details in due course.

14:55

Baroness Verma (Conservative)

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Conservative. Conservative. >> On prevention. We know that as women get to their perimenopausal stage in life, our bones do become a lot thinner. And wouldn't it be helpful and useful whilst you're rolling out other things that we do? Some some public awareness of where where they can in the meantime get support and help. And that would of course be national and not have to be rolled out.

14:56

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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It's a good point that the noble >> It's a good point that the noble Lady makes, and certainly that we are now including menopause in the are now including menopause in the NHS health check for those over 40, I think will be a very good place because it will identify where women should speak up. And indeed women 1 in 3 likely to have osteoporosis compared to men at 1.5. The noble Lady makes a very good point.

14:56

Baroness Altmann (Non-affiliated)

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Fractures caused by. >> Osteoporosis cost businesses about £160. >> Million. >> A year. >> And yet progress on fracture

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And yet progress on fracture prevention services has stalled, with patients, NHS and employers losing out from this delay. So could the noble Lady, the Minister, who I know cares deeply about this issue, give the House a date for the roll out plan to reassure everyone that the government does intend to get delivery back on track for the 2030 universal coverage deadline.

14:57

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, the the point perhaps to the noble Ladies, I, I don't accept the analysis about rolling back. We're actually going forward We're actually going forward compared to where we started. And as I said, I understand the frustration about moving. I'm sure we would all share that. But for example, my officials are progressing policy options, including the upcoming Frailty and Dementia Modern service framework, where we can set local targets, for example, for ICBs.

And we're going to be led by evidence on that because we do want to improve health and care for this very important cohort. As the noble Lady says.

14:57

Baroness Nargund (Labour)

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My Lord, I thank my noble friend the Minister, for including the the Minister, for including the support for women with osteoporosis in the renewed Women's Health in the renewed Women's Health strategy. Can I ask my noble friend the Minister, what plans are in place to ensure that the ICBs will give equal access to women to Fracture Liaison Services, so that we can prevent further fractures?

14:58

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I think I think. >> It'd be fair for me to say to my noble friend that whilst many areas have made good progress, there is still variation in service provision and issues about patient access. But that is why we're improving identification, assessment and treatment of people at risk of fragility fractures. And perhaps I could refer on the point about women that two new drugs since four years ago have been recommended by nice for the treatment of osteoporosis, and they will help to strengthen the bones and prevent bone loss.

All of this, as well as nice publishing, updated guidance and the other measures that we're taking, will all improve Fracture Liaison Services, including prevention.

14:59

Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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Well. Baroness Hayter for their persistence on this particular issue. And it is welcome that the government has made a commitment to government has made a commitment to roll out universal fracture by 2030. But can I ask Lord Bailey Minister, who will be responsible for setting implementation milestones to interim target dates and reporting towards the 2030 target?

14:59

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well. things that we do. We have a range of measures. One I've just spoken about, which would be the modern service framework, which is a new way of holding to account. And it does allow us to set targets for ICBs. But I think important to say that the the NHS England and the Department work to ensure that we do make progress. But at the end of it all, we are saying that local services are best provided by those who are the local service providers in order to meet the needs of local communities.

That doesn't change.

15:00

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Oral Question. Lord Bellingham. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

15:00

Lord Bellingham (Conservative)

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Diego Garcia is.

15:00

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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for both the UK and the US and is vital to our shared national security, maintaining its long term operation has been the UK's driving objective since negotiations began

15:00

Lord Bellingham (Conservative)

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objective since negotiations began in 2022. We have always been clear that an agreement with Mauritius that an agreement with Mauritius must protect UK interests and command US support. As the Prime Minister has said, we continue to work with both the US and Mauritius to find a diplomatic resolution. We will return to the Bill in due

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course. Can the Minister confirm that when John Healey told the Commons when John Healey told the Commons last year that the UK was facing, and I quote, an immediate threat of a binding decision on Chagos, from close he was exaggerating because his constitution prevents it from adjudicating on disputes involving military bases. Can you confirm military bases. Can you confirm that under article 36, two of the ICJ statute, there's a specific exclusion around sovereignty disputes between the UK and Commonwealth countries? So can we be quite clear there is no viable or credible threat to the UK in any UN court or tribunal? So rather than just pushing this treaty into the long grass, can she not now bin it completely and and reallocate the money to the defence budget?

15:02

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Yeah. determined to secure the integrity of one of the most important bases, both regionally and indeed globally, and we will do everything we can to maintain the integrity of the base. The previous conservative government was so concerned about the future of the base that Ministers entered into negotiations. The noble Lord opposite will know that the previous government acknowledged the fundamental principle that negotiations were here.

15:02

Lord Weir of Ballyholme (Democratic Unionist Party)

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My Lords. My Lords. Obviously, I don't believe that the previous Bill is the right way forward or indeed variations of it. But one of the problems in previous processes as regards the Chagos Islands has been the treatment of the Guardians themselves through a lack of respect and lack of giving them agency, often them being treated as effectively being seen as an afterthought. So will the Minister outline what recent discussions have taken place to engage directly with the Gaussians themselves and their representatives?

15:03

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well, the noble Lord raises a very important point. And the UK government has great sympathy for the Chagossian community. And we've made clear, I should say, our regret for the manner in which they were removed from the islands in the 1960s and 70s. We worked very hard to ensure that the agreement reflects the importance of the islands to the Chagossians. We also note that there are different views within the Chagossian community. I'm sure he'll be aware of the discussions that took place during the course of the bill, and I pay tribute to my noble friend Baroness Chapman for the discussions that were held.

And I can assure him that we will continue to engage regularly with the Chagossian community, including through the Chagossian contact Group, which was established under this government.

15:04

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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Chagos Islands are a British imperial legacy from which the United States derives benefit. When United States derives benefit. When the bill was in front of the House before the commitment was made, that the Chagossians rights should be protected, their right to live there, their right to return and visit and work there. So will the government, if they introduce the bill back. Include that in the face of the bill and ensure that the Chagossians are consulted and ensure that the Americans understand that that has to be part of any agreement.

Yeah.

15:04

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well, I thank the noble Lord for that question. As I say, this government established the contact group so that these issues could be raised. And first of all, the treaty enables Mauritius to develop a programme of reshuffling resettlement. The agreement is the only viable path to resettlement on the archipelago and UK based Chagossians, who do not hold Mauritian citizenship and meet the criteria, will be eligible for a Mauritian citizenship and therefore able to participate in any future programme of resettlement.

As I say, we continue these discussions with the contact group and in our efforts to find a diplomatic solution to suit all sides.

15:05

Lord Beamish (Labour)

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My Lords. importance of Diego Garcia, not just in terms of military but also intelligence community as well, something that was recognised by the benches opposite when they were in government, that a stable future for that base is important, not just for the UK, but also the US and Five Eyes, Five Eyes partners. So would she agree with me that trying to get an agreement sooner rather than later would be not only interest of UK security, but international security as well?

15:06

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well, my my noble friend has >> Well, my my noble friend has absolutely put his finger on it and he has great experience in this he has great experience in this area with his chairmanship of the of the ISC. It's absolutely true that the military base is vital for the UK's defence and intelligence, and therefore through that for the security of the British people. Quite frankly, this has, as I've said, been recognised not only by this government, by the by the previous government, and it is vital that we work to find a solution to the issue at the moment so that we can secure the future of the base for this country's defence.

15:06

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

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My Lords, I. >> To the formal negotiations 2019, I met with the then Mauritian Prime Minister and a red line. Throughout all the negotiations, informal and formal, was the issue of security. It could not be satisfied in the bill that was proposed and that is why this party opposed it. We said no, not once, but 11 times, and the government should say no again.

15:07

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well. >> From what the noble Lord has said, and I know he he knows a lot about this because of the history that he's outlined. It's absolutely vital that we do protect the base in order to secure the future defence and intelligence security for this country. That means, and his government did recognise that this needed to be sorted out and that we needed to find a solution. So we have to continue to try to do that.

The Prime Minister has made very clear that he wants to make sure that we have us support Mauritius support. In order to take this forward. We will continue to undertake those negotiations to find a diplomatic solution. But let's be clear this is about the future security and defence of this country.

15:08

Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)

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The efforts of the. present the case of the official opposition rather differently. It does. The noble Lady, the Minister, agree with me throughout the proceedings of the Bill. And now what they're really saying is that they've never agreed with the principle of negotiations with Mauritius, but they started them, and they've never owned that contradiction. Does she agree with me that the official opposition is deeply hypocritical on this matter?

15:08

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well, I think the noble Baroness makes a very important observation, and I would note that her party, I know, did, as I say, enter into the discussions that were held during the course of the bill, and my noble friend, Baroness Chapman Lord Coaker, who is also here, tried to find a way through on a cross-party basis, and it was important that that happened. And I would, again, as I say, reiterate that the previous government was concerned about the future of the base.

That is why it started the negotiations in the first place.

15:09

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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My Lords, in his meeting with President Trump, the Prime Minister confirmed that Keir Starmer has failed. Chagos surrender Bill will in fact be reviewed in the light of continued US opposition, 24 hours after he told the Mauritian Prime Minister that he was still committed to it, could the noble Lady, the Minister, say when this review will be complete and when, if ever, Ministers expect to conclude a new treaty between the UK and Mauritius?

15:09

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)

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Well, first of all, obviously, even though we worked in lockstep with the US throughout the process of finalising the agreement and it was tested at the highest levels of US security, it is obvious that the treaty can only succeed, and the negotiations can only succeed if the US is supportive of them. So we are continuing the negotiations. The Prime Minister has made absolutely clear that he wants this resolved and that's what we will do. Blencathra.

15:10

Oral questions: Impact of industrial electricity prices on the international competitiveness of British manufacturing

My Lords, I. >> Beg leave to ask the. >> Question standing in my name and the Order Paper.

15:10

Lord Blencathra (Conservative)

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My Lords, we recognise that high industrial electricity prices can affect the international

15:10

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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competitiveness of British manufacturing. That's why from 2027, the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme will be

15:10

Lord Blencathra (Conservative)

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eligible for over 10,000 businesses, up from the 7000 originally up from the 7000 originally announced, to save up to 25% of their electricity bills. That is a total package of £600 million a total package of £600 million a year. Recognising the immediate challenges, we also are providing an additional payment for eligible firms, which will be delivered next year.

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China produces 31% of all global CO2 emissions. We've got USA producing 13%, India, 8%, Russia 5% producing 13%, India, 8%, Russia 5% and the United Kingdom 0.7%. So in the immortal words of that great Labour idol, Tony Blair, the noble Labour idol, Tony Blair, the noble Lord, the Minister is a pretty straight kind of guy. So will he admit from the despatch box, now that Dieter Helm is right, and that the government's fanatical drive for net zero is pricing is decarbonising British industry out of existence with the highest electricity prices in the developing world? I ask him how many more factories must close.

How many more jobs will be lost before the government accepts that its energy policy is making British industry totally uncompetitive, without reducing global carbon emissions one iota by reducing thousands of British jobs?

15:12

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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Yes. reason why we are supporting businesses alongside, because we are providing targeted support to are providing targeted support to reduce electricity bills through the British Industrial Supercharger, saving British businesses over £1 billion a year. In the longer term, My Lords. Accelerating renewable generation is the fastest way to break the link between gas and electricity prices and protect consumers from energy crisis. Our transition to clean power will strengthen energy security and reduce exposure to volatile fossil fuel markets, helping bring down electricity prices.

15:13

Lord Sikka (Labour)

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My Lords. >> My Lords, it is scandalous that the UK lacks essential electricity transmission and storage system, and the government pays billions and the government pays billions each year to solar and wind turbine farms to switch off during periods of high sunshine and winds. Cost of the switch off to the public purse is likely to hit £8 billion a year by 2030, whilst National Grid pays dividends. What is the government doing to check this failure to invest? Well, I.

15:13

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with my noble friend. So my Lords, I mean, firstly we need to look at domestic gas production. It can reduce our imports, but it does not guarantee British consumers a discount. Gas is traded in in connected international markets. Nor would it remove electricity that would cause all the need to reduce ageing infrastructure. We are tackling costs directly to industrial relief while investing in clean power and reforming electricity pricing.

15:14

Lord Wigley (Plaid Cymru)

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Accept that. >> Accept that. >> The horticultural industrial sector is particularly hard hit by these matters and that in fact, a these matters and that in fact, a not currently recognised as energy intensive industries and therefore not eligible for the network. A charging compensation scheme. Can he please have a look at this in order to ensure that this important industry does not go down under because of these high prices?

15:14

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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I thank the Lord for bringing >> I thank the Lord for bringing that to my attention. Firstly, we intend to review the eligibility for both the supercharger and the energy Intensive Industries Competitive Compensation Scheme later this year, ensuring support remains targeted, effective and proportionate. The supercharger targeted sectors most exposed to high electricity costs and international competition, where production is at greatest risk to moving overseas. As I mentioned earlier, from 2027, the big scheme will also extend support to many manufacturers currently outside these schemes, helping strengthen competitiveness and sustain skilled jobs.

15:15

Earl Russell (Liberal Democrat)

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Unlike the official opposition, we believe in our green future and we support the roll out of renewables. However, the cost of electricity remains too high. So can I take this opportunity to ask the noble Lord, the Minister, what further action is this government taking in the budget and beyond to fundamentally reform our energy markets so that we can improve our productivity and reduce poverty?

15:15

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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OK. >> OK. >> Well, the noble Lord tells me to comment on the budget, which obviously I can't. And that's very much left to the Chancellor. However, having said that, my Lords, a successful transition must keep manufacturing, investment and skilled jobs in Britain. We have to be mindful of that. And books that I mentioned earlier and the enhanced supercharge to support this goal. While our efforts on clean power and electricity pricing addresses the fundamental system issue.

15:16

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (Crossbench)

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Crossbench, crossbench, crossbench. >> My Lords, my Lords.

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The crossbenchers. Thank you, my Lords. It is pretty clear that the vision for our green future is right. But international situations have international situations have changed since that vision. We still need to get there. But in the need to get there. But in the transition, mustn't we keep jobs for young people here and ensure that we have substantial security that we have substantial security in terms of gas provision, which anybody listening to the today programme this morning will realise that under serious threat is the government carefully considering these situations?

15:17

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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Well. >> As I mentioned earlier, look, we have to keep everything under review and we've got a big scheme that's currently open to more than 10,000 businesses. And we've got a supercharger scheme in place, and we are constantly listening to businesses, and we will support businesses as much as we can. So we want to keep businesses in this country and deter them from going overseas, and we are supporting them in every way. We can.

15:17

Lord Harrington of Watford (Non-affiliated)

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Return from number ten, where I had a meeting in my capacity as chairman of make UK with the Prime Minister about energy costs, and I'm sorry that I'm sometimes guilty of harassing the noble Lord, the Minister. I hope in a nice way, but

15:17

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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I'm going to ask him the same question as I asked the Prime Minister, and that is, our energy Minister, and that is, our energy costs are 60% more than our competing countries. This is because of policy costs. This is because of policy costs. This is because governments have decided that instead of taxpayers paying that instead of taxpayers paying for whatever might be very good policies, they're paid for by manufacturing industry. And I'm manufacturing industry. And I'm afraid the big scheme is two years too late and it only lasts for two years.

So what? I'd ask him to answer the question, which is, how answer the question, which is, how can we be sure that we are going to reindustrialise when long term we're at a big competitive disadvantage from France, Germany disadvantage from France, Germany and other countries?

15:18

Lord Harrington of Watford (Non-affiliated)

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Yeah.

15:18

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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noble Lord he can ask me any questions any time and he can questions any time and he can hassle me any time. I'm always there for him. So my Lords, firstly, manufacturers need practical manufacturers need practical support. And I said earlier, we've got a supercharger and now we've got a big scheme and it's going to got a big scheme and it's going to extend to some that 10,000 businesses right across the country. So applications are open now. And I acknowledge the pressure on businesses outside the scheme, but targeted support.

And we and we have to target this support for strategically vital manufacturing is a significant intervention that will boost British competitiveness.

15:19

My Lords. The possibility of exploring and developing small exploring and developing small nuclear modules that Lord foster in particular has been pressing recently. And would the government give encouragement to that?

15:19

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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Well, my noble friend is >> Well, my noble friend is absolutely right. I mean, we look at need to look at all kinds of sources of energy, small nuclear sources of energy, small nuclear reactors is probably one of them, together with all the renewable energies. And I'm sure my noble friend who is sitting beside me have taken note of his comments.

15:19

Lord Moynihan (Conservative)

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I declare my. >> Interest as. >> Chair of Amy Acton and Buckthorn Partners, and I'm honoured and grateful to Lord Best responsibilities to my ongoing work on energy policy. I pay tribute to the Minister for whom the whole House has the highest respect, and I'm facing for the first time. My Lords, does the Minister accept that low price, firm and secure energy is the lifeblood of our economy and essential for national security? So further to the question of the noble Baroness, could he explain to the House why Ed Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, who has the legal right to reject a production licence in the Falklands and I assume is still adhering to the Labour Party manifesto to ban all new oil and gas activity in the North Sea has, in the last two weeks, decided to sign off the production licence for the Sea Lion Field in the South Atlantic, with estimated reserves of 500 million barrels of oil.

Why? With his views on global warming, is it fine for the people of Port Stanley that a nail in the coffin for working families in Aberdeen and the United Kingdom? Well, look.

15:20

Lord Leong, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Labour)

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I thank the noble Lord for bringing that to my attention. I understand that there's going to be understand that there's going to be there's going to be a statement in the House of Commons later today. So I probably, probably will leave it until the statement before I can respond to him in writing.

15:20

Oral questions: Price of petrol and diesel at motorway service stations

Fourth Oral Question Lord Moylan.

15:21

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

15:21

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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This government recognises that prices at motorway service stations are typically higher in comparison

15:21

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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to other forecourts. The Competition and Markets Authority has found that competition at motorway service stations is weaker motorway service stations is weaker than elsewhere. This government has introduced a Fuel finder Open Data introduced a Fuel finder Open Data scheme to help drivers compare all UK fuel prices more easily. Increased competition and drive Increased competition and drive down prices. My department assesses that it can save consumers £10.4

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that it can save consumers £10.4 billion over ten years. It's quite difficult to driving up and down the motorway to use an app to work out what the price is going to be at the next service station. Typically, you will be paying £0.20 per litre premium on fuel at a service station and in a cost of living crisis. This is a this is a scandal. But is the situation. My question to the Minister is the situation going to be in any way improved by the government going ahead with the planned increase of in fuel duty of £0.06 per litre, with VAT included, planned for next year.

Shouldn't that now be scrapped?

15:22

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Can I thank my friend for that question? I know his interest in these matters. As you know that we these matters. As you know that we have cut, held steady and cut the price of fuel duty, which has meant a significant impact for for drivers. And in fact, the price of diesel in comparison to the work of the last government has reduced by £11 per litre. We have to understand that there are real price issues facing people in this country, and we take energy prices very seriously.

We have taken consistent action. We have cut that off electricity bills. We are consistently moving forward. £150 has been lifted to and we will take decisive action going forward.

15:23

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)

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My Lords, the Baroness Gill know. >> The CMA. >> In their August report, expressed continuing concern about the use of passive pricing when it the use of passive pricing when it comes to motorway stations. They're following this up with their autumn review. If they find that this continues. Will the government consider further action and will they consider giving the CMA more interventionist powers?

15:23

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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I should have said in response >> I should have said in response to my earlier that, of course, we do recognise, particularly at motorway service stations, that motorway service stations, that prices are higher and it does seem to be that the app is very popular and it will make decisive action. But the Competition and Markets Authority findings does recognise the weaknesses in that, and it does build in more regulation and more authority for the Competition and Markets Authority to take action.

And we will hold that under constant review because, of course, we put consumers interests first.

15:24

Earl Russell (Liberal Democrat)

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Lord Giddens Lib. >> Dems on these benches. We support all measures to stop price gouging. However, Trump's war and refinery pressures are narrowing refinery pressures are narrowing supplies and increasing diesel prices. So can I take this opportunity to ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, as the UK imports more than half of our diesel and a good proportion of that from America, now that Russian diesel is entering American systems, what assurances are we seeking that any American supplies are not Russian in origin? And what consideration is being given to diversifying our supplies and increasing European refining capacity to help drive down prices?

15:24

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Yeah. to raise. And the UK banned imports of Russian oil in December 2022. That ban applies to all oil and oil That ban applies to all oil and oil products that originate in Russia, irrespective of whether they enter the UK. We are absolutely clear our commitment is ironclad, that we support Ukraine and we continue with our sanctions on Russia. On the other dimension, we are working with international partners to diversify supplies, working with the G7 countries who are working very hard to ensure that we tackle this issue.

We will keep fuel markets open, and with the G7 we will have a commitment to avoid export restrictions between GC members.

15:25

Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)

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The. As the noble Lady has pointed out, the app is an pointed out, the app is an important way of introducing price competition. But as the noble Lord Lord Moylan has pointed out, using an app whilst driving would be illegal. Other countries have signage that shows dynamically the pricing at a number of fuel stations looking forward going forward, so you can choose which one to use. Is that something the government has considered?

15:25

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Can I say that's a question I >> Can I say that's a question I asked myself when I was being briefed for this question, and I'm told that private customers drive 18% of their miles on the motorway network, but make only 1% of their fuel purchases at a motorway service area. And also the technology will be built into satnavs and other technology that has now been introduced to cars to make it safe and reliable for consumers to use. There is almost 98% compliance with this model, and we are confident that it can be used safely and effectively, but of course we will keep it under review.

15:26

Lord Redwood (Conservative)

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If you can find diesel at £2 a litre, £0.86 is taxation. Isn't this tax gouging by the government with the increase that unacceptable? And shouldn't they relieve the pressures?

15:26

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Yeah. we have cut off electricity in recent years and that has assisted consumers, which is, of course, is our priority. We are concerned about energy prices. We do know for many people that that is unaffordable, but we do believe, unlike the last government, we believe our future is in clean energy. We can get energy security is a way to get us off the fossil fuel accelerator that has been growing. And from the the exposure that we have got to the volatility within the market.

And that is the way to get stability and security in the market. And that is what is popular with the British public.

15:27

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Labour)

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Hello. >> The noble Lady is very wise words there. Shouldn't we be taking a stronger stand on the. Those who are against net zero and in fact advocating more and greater use of electric cars, and in turn, then perhaps those who use electric cars and call it service stations. Shouldn't we ensure that the service stations are running systems there that charge quickly and are regularly service, and are all working.

15:28

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Again, a very significant and important point. And of course, we important point. And of course, we do have a commitment to maximising opportunities to use electric cars, and we will look at all possibilities in doing that. But can I pick up the other point that he raised within his question? And that is about our commitment to clean energy and to net zero. Absolutely. The solution to those issues lies in the development of clean, home grown energy. That is, the routes to getting bills down.

We need to get away from the volatility of the fossil fuel market. And actually, net zero is a solution to many of the problems that we face in this country.

15:28

Lord Moynihan (Conservative)

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I declare my interest as chair of Buckinghamshire Partners. My Lords. Britain currently only has around 25 days of oil stockpiled well below the IEA's 90 day emergency reserve requirement, leaving us at the increasing behest of exporters. Even despite what the Minister has just said, including fractions of oil products from Russian crude refined in Turkey. While under this government, two out of the six oil refineries have been closed. Does the Minister not agree that now is the time to lift the carbon taxes which make our refineries uncompetitive, which in turn pushes up the cost of diesel? And does she agree with Gary Smith, head of the GMB, who admittedly taking a consistent and balanced view of the Labour government's energy policy, has called for the DESNZ department to be renamed the Department of P45S and its energy policy.

And I quote, batshit crazy.

15:29

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Well. before. I think that's that's mistaken. Can I say? Of course, we have lifted some of the renewables obligation already off bills, but he completely gets the balance wrong. It is completely wrong for the Conservatives to suggest that the problems we face are because of renewable obligations or carbon taxes. That is quite wrong, and I think it is an attempt on their part to mask our exposure on the international markets. And because they did so little about that, that is the core of the problem.

That is the fundamentals of the problem. And we are ever going to solve this. That is what we must address. Home grown clean energy is the answer to this. It stops our exposure to these volatile price rises. That is what people are experiencing just now. The British public know it when they see on the news the Middle East crisis. They know they worry about it, and they know that it has an impact on their bills. And that is what we must address.

15:30

Baroness Hayman (Crossbench)

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While completely agreeing with the analysis that the noble Lady the Minister has just given about the importance of maintaining a course to Home-grown renewable energy, will she accept and can she tell me what the government is going to do that we do need considerable investment in grid infrastructure and in the work of the national grid, so that we actually have the connectivity to make use of the energy which we are producing naturally.

15:31

Baroness Curran, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Absolutely vital point. And to yet again draw comparisons between the work of this government and the work of the previous government who neglected grid infrastructure. And we are paying a very heavy price

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