Commons Chamber

Friday 16th October 2026

(began 19 hours, 55 minutes ago)

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09:47
Mike Wood Portrait Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I beg to move that the bill be now read a second time. It is a pleasure to propose this bill on a pleasure to propose this bill on a subject that not only matters deeply to my own constituency, but deeply to my own constituency, but is also dear to my own heart, and I know that for many colleagues escaping Westminster to head back to their constituencies is usually the highlight of the week. So to see hon. Members forgo a Friday in their home patches, to be here is deeply encouraging, and I thank all of those who have taken the time to attend today. As we've seen over the past few months, private members bills can come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Some are extremely contentious, others are narrow and technical. And so when I was fortunate enough to come third in the private member's bill ballot earlier this year, I was very briefly more popular than I can remember for some time, and I received all manner of helpful advice, as some suggested, I take on a grand, sweeping constitutional reform. Others suggested fixing something rather close to home and entirely uncontentious like dog grooming standards. But I decided I wanted a bill that could bring people together, and there's little, I think, that can bring more people together than the importance of our historic pubs. Now, as a past chairman of the all party parliamentary group on beer, I confess that over the years I have spent a little time inside our nation's public houses, conducting what I can only describe as exhaustive, selfless and entirely public spirited research. If not, you know it. If not a constitutional duty. But what? I take my beer seriously. I take the public the future of our historic pubs even more seriously. Because, Madam Deputy Speaker, behind the warmth, the conviviality and the familiar clinking of glasses lies the sobering reality. Today's debate is not about party politics. There is far more on this subject that unites us than divides us. But it is about whether this Parliament is willing to step in and stop the wanton destruction of our shared history. For centuries, the British pub has been the beating heart of our communities. They are the social glue that binds our villages, towns, cities and suburbs together. They are the places where friendships are forged, where birthdays are toasted, where wakes are held, where older, perhaps isolated residents find that it is often their only regular conversation of the week. Yet all too often, the planning system still treats these irreplaceable institutions as nothing more than convenient plots of land waiting to be cleared for speculative development. We cannot pretend this is an abstract, theoretical debate. We know the brutal reality because we saw it happen before our very own eyes in Himley, which I now have the honour of representing here in Parliament. Just over three years ago. An unbelievable act of destruction shocked my. The community and the wider black country and Staffordshire to its core. On the evening of 5th of August 2023, flames engulfed the crooked House. Built in 1765 as a farmhouse before becoming a pub. It had stood for over 250 years, rather longer than the present Palace of Westminster, in which we are debating today. Thanks to intense 19th century coal mining subsidence, the building settled at a bonkers 15 degree tilt that's three times the lean of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It was world famous as Britain's Wonkiest pub. You could roll a coin uphill across the bar. Counter bottles appear to defy gravity. First time visitors would take one step inside and swear that the beer had gone straight to their heads. It was an extraordinary monument to the black country's industrial heritage. The fire was devastating enough, but what followed was an absolute outrage. Barely 48 hours later, before the ashes were were cold. Before investigators could properly inspect the scene, heavy diggers rolled onto the site in a matter of hours. More than two and a half centuries of history were flattened into a pile of crushed rubble without planning permission. The perpetrators thought they could crush a building fence off the land and wait for the world to move on. But they underestimated the local community. More than 40,000 people signed petitions demanding the crooked house be rebuilt. South Staffordshire Council moved swiftly to serve a binding enforcement notice, ordering the owners to rebuild it brick by brick. That that enforcement notice is currently being appealed. Staffordshire Police completed an exhaustive criminal investigation and the file now sits with the Crown Prosecution Service. And so the appeal against the enforcement notice cannot be heard until the

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criminal proceedings have been concluded, one way or another. Of course I will give way. My friend, my neighbour, the

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My friend, my neighbour, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, and I remember in 2023 the outrage of communities all 2023 the outrage of communities all across the Black Country after that pub was demolished in the way he describes. I share his outrage describes. I share his outrage alongside the communities he he mentions there. I notice that the difficulties with the process of difficulties with the process of getting it rebuilt does. Does he have an estimate of when that fantastic heritage asset might be

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rebuilt? And when the community can see that crooked pub here again? Well, as I said, it all depends

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Well, as I said, it all depends on how long it takes the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether there is evidence to whether there is evidence to proceed. The last update I had from them was about six weeks ago, when they said they were still working they said they were still working on the file, but were unable to provide a time frame. But of course, provide a time frame. But of course, the community is impatient, and the longer that this drags on, the more cynical and frustrated people will be. And so whilst clearly the investigation cannot be rushed, we also cannot have any unnecessary delays. So I say today, as I've said from day one, that the local community is not going to let that go. That enforcement. Notice that the hon. Gentleman spoke, spoke of is legally binding and the crooked House must and will rise again from the ashes. Madam Deputy Speaker, as we pursue justice through the courts, we must ask ourselves the fundamental question how on earth did the system allow this to happen in the first place? Fighting drawn out legal battles after the wrecking ball has done its worst is nowhere near good enough. When an irreplaceable 18th century landmark is destroyed, no amount of enforcement notices can properly recreate the original historic fabric of a building that had grown organically. We have a duty to fix the law so that no other community is robbed of its heritage in this appalling manner. And that is why I've introduced this bill, backed by the Campaign for Real Ale and 145,000 members, as well as the Countryside Alliance and the Save the Crooked House campaign. Every single clause of this legislation is designed to close some of the legal loopholes that were so blatantly exposed in Himley. Had this bill been on the statute book in 2023? Crooked House may still be standing today because it would have intervened. It would have made a difference in four specific and possibly decisive ways. Firstly, it would put an end to secret sales in 2023. The local community had no idea that Marston's had put the crooked house on the market until contracts had already exchanged, sold off to buyers who clearly had no intention of running it as a pub by the community. By the time the community found out and tried to do something about it, it was already too late. So clauses 1 to 4 of my bill place a statutory duty on each local planning authority in England to compile and to maintain a register of heritage public houses covering venues that are at least 150 years old or possess recognised local heritage significance, including heritage interiors. Of course.

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Thank you, the hon. Gentleman, for bringing this very interesting for bringing this very interesting bill. My understanding is that local planning authorities already have powers to create local lists for buildings of local historic for buildings of local historic importance, and these can include heritage pubs. I'm currently working to try and save one of our working to try and save one of our heritage pubs, The old Glen pub, and this has also been suggested to me as an avenue for saving it. Does me as an avenue for saving it. Does he agree that that provision is

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already there within current rules? No. That that provision is helpful but insufficient, partly helpful but insufficient, partly because it does rely on a proactive actions by the local authorities, actions by the local authorities, which are often only taken just as in the case of registering communities of assets of community communities of assets of community value, once there is a clear threat, by which time it may be too late, but also because those local listings do not offer the full protection that heritage pubs need. In particular, they they offer little to no protection for heritage interiors. Some of the. Some of the insides of pubs that that we see, particularly in the interwar and immediately after the Second World War, becoming rarer and rarer. Many of the things that people identify as being a typical British pubs being replaced by more, shall we say, generic dining layouts, but preserving those those features of local heritage are really important. But local listing does not typically help with that, nor does it offer the criminal penalties for the unlawful demolition that I think are the appropriate sanctions. So clause nine provides that the moment an owner intends to sell a registered pub, they must formally notify the council, which must in turn notify local members of Parliament, ward councillors and the public. So secret backroom deals behind closed room door, closed doors will become impossible. Secondly, the bill introduce a genuine community right to buy, extending the positive changes that the government introduced through the English Devolution Act. Because the sale of the crooked House was shrouded in secrecy, neither the community nor responsible pub operators had had any real opportunity to put together a viable bid to keep it trading before it was sold. So under clauses nine and ten during the first 12 months on the market, a registered heritage pub can only be sold if the buyer enters into a legally binding covenant, guaranteeing it operates as a pub, or if it is sold to a community group. Community buyers are granted up to 18 months to complete the purchase.

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I thank you gentlemen for giving way. It's a very sensible suggestion, and I like his proposal suggestion, and I like his proposal that the public should be informed about the potential sale, or indeed any other potential changes that he any other potential changes that he has in the bill. How does he see that communication happening with the public so that those maybe who the public so that those maybe who are not on online or not on the internet are able to find out about it and can stand up for their pub.

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it and can stand up for their pub. Local representatives have an important role to play for this. We obviously do have established methods for communicating public notices, but I don't think anything will replace a good, well organised local campaign organised by either the local Member of Parliament or the local councillors engaging their local communities. So, crucially, adopting the framework of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. If a community group cannot reach an agreement on price with the seller because they are demanding an unrealistic, exorbitant price, the price will be determined by an independent valuer. That means owners can no longer price out local people with inflated asking prices designed purely to force a dereliction narrative. Thirdly, the bill establishes immediate interim protection against demolition. When local residents discovered the crooked House had been sold, local council of Victoria Wilson moved with great speed to submit an application for statutory listing, but the pub was torched and bulldozed before that application could even be considered. So clauses 5 to 7 resolve this by adopting a proven system that has operated successfully in Wales for years. I understand it was the late. The Welsh Labour Government introduced this 20 years ago. Under my Bill, the moment an application to list a registered heritage pub is submitted, it automatically receives interim listed building status. It is treated in planning law as a listed building overnight, stopping bulldozers in their tracks, stopping the interiors being ripped

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out while the experts do their work. Please thank the hon. Member for giving way and pay tribute to his campaigning on On the Crooked House. I wonder if he could elaborate on how he sees this system interacting how he sees this system interacting with the asset of community value option. I have a local campaign group who have put a pub under an asset of community value. It bought them some time. Of course, they still have to raise the money for a

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still have to raise the money for a bid. I'm just curious whether he's explored that option to. Yes. And the provisions in this bill are very much designed to complement or work alongside the measures in the Localism Act. I was proud that the. It was then, of course, the coalition government had introduced the. The system of assets of community value in the Localism Act 2011. But this government extended some of those provisions in its English Devolution Act, and this won't replace or supplant any of those. But what it does do is recognise that, as I've said, communities have that power, but will generally only go through what is still not an easy process to navigate, will only do that when there is a clear and direct threat that they are aware of. By which time, as we saw with the crooked House, it was far too late for that to matter. So this extends some of those provisions to to cover all of those heritage pubs on the Heritage Pub register. So clause eight includes a fair compensation mechanism for owners if listing is ultimately refused, ensuring proper balance and property safeguards. Again, copying the system that had been introduced in Wales. Finally, clause 11 kills speculative development at source. It creates a strict presumption against granting planning permission for change of use of any registered pub. Now, clearly, the National Planning Policy Framework has set. Ha has raised the bar for change. Change of use for heritage buildings and for many pubs. But I think having the protection in primary legislation where it is clear on the face of the Act of Parliament will be more effective. I think we have all seen cases where our our own local councils, planning authorities have looked at some of the provisions of the Nppf that we thought were safeguards, perhaps against inappropriate development, and decided that actually that safeguard wasn't as strong as we imagined or that we think was intended when it was introduced. This overcomes that by putting the presumption into primary legislation. So permission cannot be granted unless the owner can prove that the property has been marketed at an independent fair price, and no pub operator or community bid has emerged. So if the bias of the crooked House had known, they could never convert the site into an alternative development or Waste Depot, I don't think they would have touched it and it would have remained in hands

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dedicated to pulling pints. There is no time. He's being very generous with his interventions. I do appreciate that. And I, I thank him for recognising the positive changes the National Policy Planning the National Policy Planning Framework has made to the heritage pubs standards and the way they're able to stay open. But before he finalises, I wonder if he considered upwards rent reviews, considered upwards rent reviews, which are where landlords potentially of heritage pubs and other pubs are only able to increase rents even if market conditions make it more difficult for pubs, which which puts a real financial pressure on the managers and operators of pubs. Is that considered anywhere in this bill, or is that something that he's he's

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considered. I that's not directly part of this bill, but it does, of course, this bill, but it does, of course, it's an issue that that affects a it's an issue that that affects a large number of tenanted pubs across the country, whether heritage or more modern. And it's certainly something that the pub code adjudicator needs to look at. And I think if the government may And I think if the government may wish to, at the next review of the pub Code, consider whether that needs needs to change. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the hon. Gentleman may have been slightly optimistic in suggesting I was drawing to a close, but just turning briefly to the Treasury bench and to the Minister. I know how the machinery of government works. I know that somewhere in the departmental briefcase today, there is a neatly typed briefing folder with the word resist stamped across the top. Civil servants and officials are famously ingenious at finding 27 procedural reasons why a sensible idea cannot possibly be enacted on a Friday from a private member's bill that they didn't think of. They will agonise over definitions. They will claim existing powers are entirely sufficient, even when the rubble of our heritage proves that they simply are not. So I say to the Minister, who I know cares deeply about this issue in all sincerity. You do not need to resist this bill. This issue should be above the narrow party divides. So I make a, if you like, and I don't want to panic our colleagues on the Liberal Democrat benches, but I'll make a open, unreserved offer to the government and to colleagues on all sides. You may even call it comprehensive. Vote for Second Reading today, and let us work collaboratively ahead of Bill Committee. If hon. Members across this House agree on the central premise that our historic pubs are precious, that there are gaps in the current protections and that we should act to close those gaps before even more valued heritage pubs are lost forever, then the right and proper course today is to grant this bill a Second Reading and then work with me to make this the best bill that it can be. Second Reading is the debate on the principle of the bill. The detailed scrutiny belongs in committee, and let us be entirely realistic about the parliamentary arithmetic. Under the Standing orders, the government will have a clear 11 to 6 majority on the public Bill committee. They will have complete control. If Ministers feel certain definitions in clause 12 need refinement. If the timelines in clause nine need tweaking, or if the council duties in clause one need streamlining, the government has the votes to agree those amendments with ease. So I stand ready to work with the Minister line by line, clause by clause, to agree amendments that give the government the comfort it needs while giving our heritage pubs the protection the public demands. What we cannot do, what our constituents will not forgive us for doing, is walking away, hiding behind procedural excuses and leaving the door wide open for the next historic pub to be bulldozed on a Sunday night. Nothing we do today can undo the heartbreak felt across my constituency and the wider region when the crooked House fell. But by passing this bill, we can ensure that its enduring legacy is a legal shield that protects every beloved historic pub across England for generations to come.

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The question is that the Bill be now read a second time I call Adam Jogee.

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Jogee. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I feel like I've just won the pub quiz being called first. Thank you very much indeed. Christmas has very much indeed. Christmas has come early. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in the Second opportunity to speak in the Second Reading debate on the Heritage Public Houses Bill. But before I do, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd just like to say the name Donna Ann Reas.
10:09
Adam Jogee Portrait Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
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to say the name Donna Ann Reas. Donna was 38 and a constituent of mine, and sadly, Staffordshire Police have now launched a murder investigation after she was found dead at a property in Clayton in my constituency on Monday. This week an investigation is underway and so we have to be very careful, of course, what we say. But let me say this every woman in our country and across the world deserve to live freely and safely from the effects of male violence, and I'll do whatever I can to make sure that happens in Newcastle-under-Lyme. And I thank the emergency services for their diligence and pray that justice will be done. And of course, I also extend my condolences to Donna's family and friends who are grieving at this time. And I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley will no doubt call on his name next March for International Women's Day, but I thought it was important that I did so today here. And thank you for your indulgence to speak to the bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, who doesn't like a visit to the pub for cold refreshment of all kinds, I. I one warm, warm, warm, warm beer. I don't know what happens in Kensington, Madam Deputy Speaker, but we like a cold refreshment to Newcastle-under-Lyme I love I. I love visiting and supporting the many excellent pubs in Newcastle and our surrounding communities in North Staffordshire and South Cheshire. And with that in mind, I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, my county colleague, for bringing the bill to the House today, and I'm also very pleased to see my hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Minister in her place, old and length of friendship. Not an age, of course. Just for clarity, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I shall never accept an invitation to come and see us in Newcastle-under-Lyme, all of us will know, with our own communities in mind how important our local pubs are to knitting our community together, to boosting our local economies and to, importantly, making the very best of the hard work of Britain's farmers and their produce. Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to a number of historic pubs Madam Deputy Speaker all worthy of a visit, all welcoming to old and new, and all with a strong recommendation from their Member of Parliament in the House today. Take the old Brown Jug down on Bridge Street, the scene of many a gig played by my late uncle Colin Cooper and his band Climax Blues Band through the 60s and 70s a fabulous building and dates back to the mid 19th century. And I should declare an interest, Madam Speaker, in that the jug felt like my unofficial office during the election campaign to be Labour's candidate in Newcastle. Lyme, I'll happily give way.

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Rightly highlights the pubs. Are actually a. Venue for history.

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Venue for history. Historic music. And does he not think that actually this bill is rather limited in describing heritage as simply around the heritage as simply around the building, when sometimes it's the events in the building that also are deserving of heritage. And think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he's got any more to say about the history of that

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about the history of that particular venue he highlighted. My hon. Friend, as ever, gives me or makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I'm not surprised that she sought to intervene on the point. The point of music? Certainly not heritage, Madam Speaker, but I think she's right. And The Brown Jug didn't just play host to my Uncle Colin and Climax Blues Band. It's played host to many a small gig, many a local band, many young person who is almost as soulful and tuneful as the hon. Lady. And I feel sure they will continue to be play host to others in the future.

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My friend. Give way on some of the. Points I will happily give way to my friend from Shipley.

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to my friend from Shipley. So talking about cultural heritage, one of the pubs in my constituency now known as The constituency now known as The Woolpack in Esholt, was the the pub Woolpack in Esholt, was the the pub for the filming of Emmerdale. Any fans of Emmerdale here in the house? fans of Emmerdale here in the house? And so whilst the building itself may not have huge heritage value as a building, as the hon. Lady was making the point, it has huge cultural heritage value and so does he further agree with me that we need to capture these wider cultural heritage aspects, as the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans.

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. Grateful to my friend from Shipley for her intervention. I'm not sure what it says about me that not sure what it says about me that the minute she said The Woolpack, I knew exactly that she was talking about Emmerdale. Madam Deputy Speaker, I suppose my constituency, Speaker, I suppose my constituency, the Rovers return and Coronation Street would be a bit closer to Street would be a bit closer to home. But she's right. And the interesting thing that she points out there is that there is so much of our cultural identity, our heritage, our history that pubs have played a role in, and making sure that we are as comprehensive in our assessment and support is important to go back to my ultimately thankfully successful election campaign to be Labour's candidate, Madam Deputy Speaker in Newcastle. I'm in many. In many ways it was the jug what won it. We also have the ale House won by Graham Newbury, also on Bridge Street, that they have an Ace Irish Music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz and a Tuesday and good vibes all through the week. Madam Deputy Speaker and I'm grateful to Graham for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people, looking for good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire, as a rule, and what feels like every day we have Madam Deputy Speaker, the Museum pub on George Street. It's a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community and is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke on Trent and lastly, the Old Bull's Head Inn. It's just up from my office. It's the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century, and only the old bull's head is a listed building. Sadly, none of the pubs that I've just described and mentioned and recommended in the strongest terms to the house appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. It puts these key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost forever. And so we cannot take risks or let that happen. By default, we must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. And like many in my community, and I suspect colleagues in their own communities and their own pubs would be devastated to see any of our public houses forced out of business, and the hard working staff who work in them out of work, and I'm sure all colleagues across the House would agree on that. Our pubs, old and new, are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories. Madam Deputy Speaker and sometimes, I suspect, to make mistakes to and over recess. We were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by election. Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm delighted that Labour's candidate, now Councillor Andy Stuart, gained the seat for the Labour Party on an 18% swing. To us, the benefit of the by election taking place in our town centre meant that we were close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and watering holes for the post, canvass, catch up or the note taking of the casework that me and my team had to go on and get on with. Now, more than one occasion, we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. And that election day Madam Deputy Speaker October the 8th 26, 2026, we saw my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding, who's a member in the other place, and Paul Foley out campaigning with us and also enjoying full time sake at once. Some of our old heritage pubs. Staffordshire Madam Deputy Speaker for my community in the North on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders, to the hon. Gentleman in the south, on the fringes of the West Midlands Combined Authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places that people want to go, to spend time with others because of the real and meaningful community spirit they find. Madam Deputy Speaker, everything is relative and there are many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18 year old today, but may feel less so to someone at the other age of the other end of the age scale. And so with that in mind, and with thought of the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country. And I'm sure, too, in Bradford, I'd like to touch a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme whilst I have the floor. Madam Deputy Speaker One of the greats is mallards in our town centre, and I would like to give a shout out to them and extend my congratulations to all the team there. They've just been named the Pub Beer and Ale Venue of the year at the love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards that was held at Saint Giles Church just last Friday. Mrs. Joey and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was actually amazing to see an old church. I think it was 1873, if not earlier, that it was built, giving a host to a awards night. We were sitting in the pews. There were lots of jokes, as you can imagine, and I think some people who probably would have enjoyed being able to have a pint while sitting in the pew on a Sunday morning. But we'll see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. Madam Deputy Speaker And so I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work by all the team at mallards for getting the recognition that they deserve. my.

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I can raise him on the beer and churches connection. This was in part actually heritage of some of part actually heritage of some of the religious orders in our country, but in Hackney the Hackney church has a brewery and a bar that it has a brewery and a bar that it runs as part of its mission in the wider communities, and I think it wider communities, and I think it really. And and underlines how historic institutions can come together. And that's also part of

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together. And that's also part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My hon. Friend is completely correct on my father, if he were here, would share stories of the Jesuits who taught him when he was at school and how they certainly enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. And yes, I'll probably leave that there, I think. But the but she's right. There is. And actually, you also see in communities up and down the country, former churches becoming pubs, former churches becoming homes and the rest. So there's a whole interconnected relationship there and doing whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, to celebrate the heritage and to talk about. It is important, even if some parts of the country wouldn't be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch may be, it's hard to compete. Well, we'll have to divide on that later. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you. I'll happily give way to my friend from Adam. Thank you. For giving me. Does he agree

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For giving me. Does he agree with me that it's not just churches that can turn into pubs in the future? For example, I'm reminded future? For example, I'm reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on the Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency, which at one point previously had been a centre for local government, then became a prison and is now a pub. Does my prison and is now a pub. Does my hon. Friend agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison politicians, alcohol and a prison is maybe a good idea for the future?

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My my hon. Friend makes a very interesting intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker, and he's the also the Member of Parliament for the Edinburgh Festival, where my wife and I and some of my cousins were earlier this year. First time we've earlier this year. First time we've been both of us having lived in Edinburgh except for at times. Madam Speaker, before my wife got Madam Speaker, before my wife got stuck with me and we saw. I'm not sure if we went to the pub that hon. Friend references, but we went hon. Friend references, but we went to many places during that that few days in Edinburgh. And so I will resist the temptation to talk about prison. I think that's a dangerous road to go down, but I think there's certainly a benefit to. Socialising people coming together at the heart of our politics. Obviously not everybody drinks alcohol, but that doesn't mean you can't benefit from being treated in the community spirit that underpins and drives most of the, if not all, of the pubs and communities up and down our United Kingdom. And whenever I hear my colleagues from Scotland speak, it just makes me think of better together. And my hon. Friend made an excellent intervention that speaks to the strength of our United Kingdom. Yeah. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me go back to Melody in Newcastle under Lyme. We'll come down from Scotland and up from Hackney and the melody sees people of all ages from far and wide coming for Alan's quiz KWIZ held every Thursday at keeping our good old fashioned pub traditions alive and providing an opportunity and a chance for Melody's faithful regulars to have a midweek catch up and importantly, to learn too. And when I was there a couple of weeks ago, back on quiz night KWIZ, that is one of the answers involved. My right hon. Friend or our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Another reference to the right hon. Lady, the Leader of the Opposition, Alan, just gave me a knowing smile. Madam Speaker, as I've said in the House before, soon after my election to this place, I launched my very own Newcastle-under-Lyme Best Pub competition and it was a very timely and enjoyable opportunity to visit, celebrate and enjoy the pubs in our community and each time we've done it, there have been nominations flying in from every corner of our constituency, and it's always fantastic to hear about all the different things that local people, our community love about our pubs. And in the end, last year it was the Little Vic on King Street, conscious that we have to be careful about our own security. But that would be where? Well, yeah, that's our local, an excellent place and I'm often given casework when you're in there. They topped the poll amongst my constituents, and I want to put on record, particularly a big thanks to Sophie, who not that long ago was doing some charity fundraising, which involved, you know, the cream on the pretty weak and useless paper plates that get thrown in your face. There's a I can't remember the you know what I mean? I think colleagues, the custard pies. There you go. Morecambe knows what we're talking about. Madam Deputy Speaker. And and she went through the probably the embarrassment of having to be have a custard thingies thrown at her but it was a

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on custard pies. Well, well here custard pies. A great example of a. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. The hon. Member is making a very

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The hon. Member is making a very long speech which is ranging widely. I slightly lost the thread. If this private member's bill were to go to private member's bill were to go to a vote, would he be voting for it or against it or abstain? Hon. or against it or abstain? Hon. Gentleman, for his intervention, he talked about custard pies. That was very watery custard intervention, if I may say. We like we like full throated creamy custard here, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, I'll come to if the hon. Gentleman, I mean, he said, I've spoken too long. I haven't spoken long enough, Madam Deputy Speaker. And you you gave me a Christmas come early present by calling me first, and so I shall use the opportunity that was being provided to me by you and by my constituents for sending me here. So the hon. Gentleman just sits back, relaxes a little bit longer, and he will hear, Madam Speaker, a little bit more about what I think and how I think we should proceed, whether we agree may be a different matter, but he will enjoy it, I am sure. Nonetheless, madam Deputy, Madam Deputy Speaker, our pubs play an important role in our international relations, and the Member for Spelthorne is now a shadow Foreign Office Minister, so I hope he will be listening to this part of my speech with the attention he is known for. Madam Speaker, on Australia Day 2025, alongside members of Silverdale Parish Council, I welcome the then Australian High Commissioner, the Honourable Stephen Smith, to the Bush Inn in Silverdale and, as the House will know, because I suspect, like the hon. Member for Spelthorne, they all pay attention to everything I say in this house. Our town was the birthplace of the sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook, and when cook returned to the United Kingdom as Australia's High Commissioner here in the 1920s, he celebrated in the very same pub we took Mr. Smith to, and my team and I and many other local people, not least the parish council, have traced Cook's local story. His father, unsurprisingly, was a miner down the pit and we raised a toast to his legacy. The only problem with cook is, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that he starts off in the Labour Party and landed up a Tory. But nobody is beyond redemption. Another much loved pub is the Gresley Arms and also savings Bank, known for having the best views in Staffordshire, the Fantastic beer garden is an excellent way to spend a summer evening or as a micro used to a final stop after a long day of pounding the pavements. As we get to enjoy one of our heritage public houses. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Albert first opened as a beer house in 1861. I hope this is enough heritage for the hon. Member for Spelthorne, now won by. Emma, is a great community pub. In fact, I took another Australian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, the Honourable George Brandis, there on his visit to Newcastle. Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to taking you to both when you come and see us to. It's just another example of how our pubs play such an important role in all that we do. And I should also say that the. The Secretary of my constituency Labour Party, Alderman Sylvia Butler, is a very loyal and devoted champion of the Albert Pub and long may that continue. There are just so many pubs that mean so much to our community and I would happily spend all day speaking about all the Madam Deputy Speaker, but I don't want to upset any more. The hon. Member for Spelthorne, but I would welcome all of my colleagues and all parties coming to join us for a pint back home in

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Newcastle. Madam Speaker, it could be said online it could be anything else, whether it's the Artery Wall, Stanton, the Westbury Tavern. Or my hon. Friend.

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Or my hon. Friend. I will happily give way to my West Midlands speech. And he's talked about the many excellent beers that are available excellent beers that are available in his constituency. Did he know? Elsewhere in the West Midlands you can find fantastic cider in can find fantastic cider in Roberto's, which is a micropub right in the heart of Halesowen. And can he talk about the other options of alcohol that are options of alcohol that are available, not just in heritage pubs, but in pubs all across the country, and how it is quite a surprise that the third best cider

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pub in the country is found in Halesowen. I'm enjoying this, Madam Speaker,

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I'm enjoying this, Madam Speaker, as I think it's been said by others before. My hon. Friend makes a very before. My hon. Friend makes a very important intervention. And he's right, you can get all manner of refreshment at Heritage Public refreshment at Heritage Public House, Madam Deputy Speaker and all parts of the country. I'm not sure what refreshment you choose if you're having some of the Spelthorne watery custard. Madam Deputy Speaker but certainly you can get a good cold pint. You could get a bit of lemon, which I know the the the former Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher ordered when she was at the Rovers return. We talked about Emmerdale. My friend from Shipley is gone, but when I remember a clip of Baroness Thatcher at the Rovers return, she ordered a bitter lemon. And that's just one example of the things you could drink there. I mean, my observation of Mrs. Thatcher doesn't go much further than that. I saw that quizzical look from my friend from Morecambe. Don't worry. But there is certainly there is certainly a range of things, and I think that speaks to. And I'd be surprised, actually, that the Conservative Party wouldn't want to take a moment talking about this because they believe in choice or supposedly. And the great thing about our heritage is not only are there so many up and down the country, you could choose to go to when you get there, the choices are infinite and I look forward to. I'm Not apply to fund myself, Madam Speaker, but I wish cider drinkers and Halesowen and other parts of the West Midlands very well indeed. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me just take us back to the Archer and Wolstanton, the Westbury Tavern, the Swan and Betley, the Boughton horses, the Sneyd Arms on Highland. The list on and on, as. Unfortunately for the Member for Spelthorne, my speeches doing so this morning, Madam Deputy Speaker, but at the end of the day, our pubs are about so much more than somewhere to have a pint, a cup of coke, a juice. And there are very many options that my hon. Friend from Halesowen allowed me to reference this morning. They provide an opportunity to see familiar faces and catch up. In other words, they make us feel like we're part of something a neighbourhood, a village, and it's so important to our collective and individual happiness and wellbeing that that is so. We will have all heard about stories in our communities, of people who notice that someone hasn't been at the bar or someone hasn't been in recently, and that person's often checked up on. Most of the time it's positive, sometimes it's not. And without that connection and that sense of community that pubs provide, people wouldn't be able to do so. Now, Madam Speaker, I'd like to say a couple more things about how we can support and heritage protect our heritage pubs. The first is by ensuring that our town centres are safe and secure, places to travel, to walk, to be and to do that, local people in Newcastle-under-Lyme who rightly are furious that anti-social behaviour and criminality has emerged far too frequently, frequently in recent times around the sunken roundabout and in particular, hotspots in town. And I hope that all the relevant authorities from borough and county councils to Staffordshire Police get a grip of this situation and to ensure that all measures, including those introduced by this government, are used and used quickly. Our town is a wonderful place to live, learn and work and we cannot allow it to be blighted by crime and anti-social behaviour. Not now and not ever. Because I'm sick and tired of women in Newcastle-under-Lyme telling me they don't feel safe going into our town. And I don't want any women in my family or those I present to feel that way at all. We won't successfully protect and defend our heritage pubs if people aren't going to spend their money there because they don't feel safe, and I hope the relevant authorities will have heard me loud and clear. The second point I'd like to mention, Madam Speaker, about the impact of. Or is the impact of incompetent decisions taken by local authorities and what that can mean for celebrating and maintaining the heritage pubs that our towns are home to? Take the current situation on Brook Lane. Our town has essentially Madam Deputy Speaker come to a standstill at rush hour in recent weeks because Brook Lane has been closed for several weeks and is scheduled to be closed for several more. I wrote to Staffordshire County Council and the hon. Gentleman who, whose bill we are debating this morning, will share many of my frustrations, I suspect, with Staffordshire County Council. So even if the Member for Spelthorne doesn't want to hear it, I know that my honourable colleague will agree with the point on this, but I've written to Suffolk County Council. Well, I wrote to them on September the 1st. I had to write to them again this week because no letter has arrived in response to mine on September 1st. And this is important because County Council have announced they plan to use further road closures Madam Deputy Speaker on surrounding roads, and this is going to compound the situation and will make it even more difficult for people to get to the Bridge Street Ale house I talked to you about earlier on, or

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to the Jug pub, not to mention everything else that everyone has to do. The honourable. Gentleman give way. I will happily give way.

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I will happily give way. We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden, close to the historic pub in Harden, and that road closure for extensive period of time and roadworks had a period of time and roadworks had a very significant impact on the ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub within my constituency. So I recognise that these disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and would agree with him that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up these roadworks, getting them completed

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on time, and also making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My friend from Shipley, who I almost always agree with, is completely correct to point out the completely correct to point out the frustration to businesses, to people, to residents, to to people, to residents, to communities. The impact on pubs or shops or businesses generally, their ability to trade, to survive their ability to trade, to survive and to thrive, of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. And so, from Shipley to Staffordshire, North and South, if I can speak for the hon. Gentleman for Kingswinford, we agree. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, we cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to a list of assets if they no longer operate because of. As my hon. Friend from Shipley has pointed out, stupid decisions of incompetence or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we

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cannot let. I'll happily give. But once again, he highlights that it's not just about the that it's not just about the building, but it's about some of the events that take some of the conversations he. He refers to obliquely there. You know, there may be major historical moments that have happened in public houses, that have happened in public houses, some of which were coffee shops at the time, and I wonder if he's got any examples of such important

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any examples of such important historic moments that he might like to extrapolate on. My hon. Friend is really determined to make sure the Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, Madam Deputy Speaker, which may be a blessing, so I'm grateful. But she, she she puts question to me and no doubt to through me to all colleagues who will be thinking about how they can answer that question, their own contributions. But she's right. There are many places, whether it is campaigning against injustice and inequality, whether it's people coming together to call out councils for bad decisions that have been taken or I mean, take the the families who are campaigning to on road safety, Newcastle, particularly after the the recent incident where a father was knocked down, taking his child to school, and the organisation that has come together following their frustration and experiences. Madam Speaker. But that's just one thing where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen. And I, I know in her community that many she can point to many places where that will have happened. And we can too. And I'm looking forward to the hon. Lady when she catches your eye. Madam Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will too. And I think the important point about conversation that pubs are so often. Home to or locations for is that shared, connected thread of history, of experience, of understanding that goes through from generations before us to today as we seek to look to tomorrow. And so I thank you for intervention, for the ability to spend a minute just thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the the doors of our public houses, Madam Speaker, and not least the older ones. And, you know, just to go back, if I may, for a moment, to the the jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, was my unofficial office during my election campaign. From a family perspective, it was almost going full circle. I said, my mother's eldest sister, Carol, sadly late now, but she married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist and Climax Blues Band, Couldn't get it right and many other brilliant tunes that will have, of course, been played in pubs up and down the country from Spelthorne, Staffordshire, and that that sense of connection that I felt with someone who had used that pub generations for me was years before me, was something that I held on to and I thought was quite nice and it was a source of comfort as. And you'll know this, Madam Speaker, you go through membership lists and trying to remember who you've spoken to, who you haven't spoken to, what they said to you, what they didn't say to you, what they wanted to say to you, and what you wanted to say back. But the, the power of that connection story, I think is, is very important. So I'm very grateful to my friend from Hackney, even though she's now on her phone Madam Speaker for giving me the opportunity, but forgive me the opportunity to spend a minute to think about that. Now are public houses each have their own unique character and charm, as I say, and we cannot let generations to come miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. And so I would Madam Deputy Speaker and this is the longest I think I've spoken since I was elected to this House. And so I'm annoyed I didn't write more. Madam Deputy Speaker, since I have the floor, but I would like to extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They they they do so much for the community, for our local economy, and in many ways, Madam Speaker, our island nation home would be so very different if it was. Otherwise.

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I will happily give way to. Thank you for taking the intervention. I appreciate you maybe, maybe drawing to a close, maybe, maybe drawing to a close, but just as you're thanking people around the country who run these pubs, I wonder if you could just pubs, I wonder if you could just give a. A special congratulations could be given to the now over 200 could be given to the now over 200 community run pubs, often as cooperatives or or taken actually by the community wants to save their pub because they appreciate the value that it brings and whether he has any cooperative or community run pubs he might want to thank, or just join me in general in thanking that movement.

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Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. I'm grateful to my friend from Kensington and Bayswater for his intervention. There are far too many excellent examples of that sense of community that I could point to, but I'm conscious, Madam Speaker, that others may want to speak, but I would just, in saying that, say I couldn't agree more with my friend. He's right to raise with my friend. He's right to raise that. And it speaks to the power of or the people power of of community. And I thank him for making that intervention. Our historic pubs, Madam Speaker, at the heart of our communities. And once we lose them, you rarely get them back. And so I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing his bill to the House today, for giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues, and for me to speak about the excellent public houses, old and new, in Newcastle-under-Lyme. And I know that colleagues from across the House and our United Kingdom will be doing that themselves shortly. We must keep working to make sure that our pubs are preserved and supported. And so, as I speak in this debate today, Madam Speaker, I think of all the happy times I've spent with friends, family, loved ones and many a constituent across

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a pub table. Happy times indeed. Hey.

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Before I call the next speaker. Whilst custard pie references have been very, very interesting and entertaining, can I gently remind entertaining, can I gently remind members that we are here to discuss whether the Heritage Pub Bill whether the Heritage Pub Bill should have a Second Reading? Brian Mathew.

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Mathew. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a big thank you to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this very valuable private member's bill for the great historic British pub in my constituency of Melksham and Devizes. I have some wonderful examples which include include,
10:41
Brian Mathew Portrait Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
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among others, in Melksham, the King's Arms, named by Historic England as a grade two listed building. The bear, which was used to be used as a coaching inn in the to be used as a coaching inn in the 18th century, and the Market Tavern and in the Market Tavern in Devizes. Another bear in the hotel there in the Market Place, the lamb. In the Market Place, the lamb. In dating back to the 15th century, the. The white bear in. Listed as grade two and reputed to be the oldest pub in Devizes, dating back to 1567 and also allegedly haunted the Black Swan Inn and. And then in urchfont The Lamb in a thatch pub dating back to 15th century in Potton, the Georgian Dragon again dates back to the 15th century and recognised on the National Heritage List in Market Lavington, the Green Dragon, dating back to the 17th century and in Salisbury, near seed Seend the three Magpies again another grade two listed pub with links to the canal and in Bradford on Avon, the barge in and the Three Horseshoes and, sadly, the Swan, which was closed in September 2023. I will.

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I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He mentioned one of the pubs that mentioned one of the pubs that dates back to the 15th century is

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haunted. Can you tell us by what. I thank the Member for his

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I thank the Member for his interesting intervention. I wasn't I I'm not going to go into all the I I'm not going to go into all the the the ins and outs of haunting, although they may be may be of great interest to the hon. Member. The the in box, the Northey Arms, a historic inn close to the Great Western Railway, and the Queen's head, famous locally for its music in Cologne. The Fox and Hounds, a grade two listed pub, and the six bells from the 18th century.

And in Winsley the Seven Stars. There are these and other pubs also that have been closed and then, with community support reopened and the hop pole in Limpley Stoke is a worthy example and there are others in the midst of this struggle. The Ivy in Headington and the Somerset Arms in Semington that has received support from none other than His Royal Highness William, Prince of Wales. Historic pubs need this support, but more than this, all pubs and communities need a shift economically.

From the supermarket to the pub and I hope that the Chancellor will be listening as he writes his Budget speech. The people need the pub and the future of our country needs these pubs. Thank you.
10:44
Meg Hillier Portrait Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )
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I call them Meg Hillier. Gentleman, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing what is Staffordshire for bringing what is a very complex and very multiple clause Bill to the House. Quite brave for a private member's bill because usually it's the short ones that are successful, but also about the passion with which he spoke

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about the the outrageous actions of the demolition of the crooked House pub. Yes.

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Yes. I do not know that his constituency, but I remember vividly when that happened, the vividly when that happened, the feeling of outrage that not just from myself, but among many people I met in the constituency around I met in the constituency around that time, that that could be allowed to happen, that people could be that brazen and get rid of could be that brazen and get rid of what was a major cultural asset. He also highlighted in his speech how pubs and planning, and I'm going to touch on that in a moment, but I think it's worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications, and sometimes it's quite odd. You walk down a major road in the City of London and there's this little gap where there's a pub and surrounded by high rise, glass fronted office blocks. And I do think sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or is it the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning application? I'm going to touch on that in more detail later on in my speech, because in simple terms, this is quite a long bill for what it seeks to achieve. And I want to just touch in and cover three areas. Really, what is the bill adding to the landscape that is already there to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? And although there is a definition outlined in the bill, I think it's a bit unambitious. If I may say to the hon. Gentleman, because as I've highlighted already a couple of times, there is wider heritage than just the physical building. And of course, there are new buildings and new new entrants to the market, if you like. But as I think quite eloquently put by my hon. Friend the Member for. Newcastle-under-Lyme, that depending on which end you are of the age range, heritage can be mean. Different things that some of us will remember things for a long time because we've been around a long while to do it. But for some people, the zeitgeist at the moment is the pub that is going to be a heritage venue of the future. And then I also want to touch Madam Deputy Speaker on assets of community value, which plays a bit into the first point I was making is why this bill, when we already have a mechanism. So we already have in the planning system very many mechanisms to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. Indeed. So just starting off from proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application. They are, and they are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this government has been a champion of making it easier to develop, while trying to also maintain protections. That challenge with the Prime Minister, who rightly wants to see more devolution. Devolution. I should say that I started as a baby councillor. It's quite a long time ago now, over 30 years ago now when when I inherited the the seat on Islington Council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place, and under her leadership of the Council there was an excellent council called Councillor Morris Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services. Services delivered within pram pushing distance. Now our Prime Minister talks about every postcode. I think we've moved on a bit from that pram pushing distance with the internet, but actually that local devolution to the most appropriate level is right and that is a challenge. Still. I think as we devolve planning, we want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning isn't held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, as I go back to this, we have permitted development rights and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that. I'm certainly.

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Making an excellent point about development of high streets, and the new powers of the Prime Minister is given to restrict Minister is given to restrict places like vape shops and betting shops on the high street, moving in to permit and other issues. I'm really affected in my area positively by the number of bars positively by the number of bars that are opening up in those empty shops on the high street and the positive impact they're having on our communities. Could you say a

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our communities. Could you say a little bit more about how that is positively affecting her area? Absolutely. I mean, I'm tempted to get into to the second part of my speech, but I will touch on, on this because what is very clear in Hackney South and Shoreditch is that our railway arches are becoming a real diverse hub of business and a lot of brewery. My breweries and I won't go through them all now are based there. The brewing on site, providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they wouldn't count as heritage pubs under the hon. Gentleman's bill because they haven't been around as a pub for 150 years. I'll give way to the hon. Gentleman.

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I thank. The hon. Lady for the point she's making and as you will see in she's making and as you will see in clause 12, obviously one of the criteria that is given for what criteria that is given for what makes up a heritage pub is being having been around for 150 years. having been around for 150 years. But the other part of that definition is that or if the local planning authority feels that the planning authority feels that the building or its interior is of heritage significance, the heritage significance it's been well established includes links to to events, famous people in the past, and actually will cover the type of events she was speaking of earlier. But if she thinks that that definition needs to be broadened, will she work with me to find the right amendment for committee to improve this bill? So it does what she and I wanted to do.

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I think. About commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his bill progresses today, then I will progresses today, then I will certainly work with him on that. But let's wait and see what happens in that respect. And and I think in that respect. And and I think that the challenge of a bill of this length is that it is quite complex to amend. And that is complex to amend. And that is always because there are a lot of many moving parts to this that already cut across, as already I've already cut across, as already I've touched on briefly, and I'll just go into a bit more detail on that, and I will come back into the point about some of the, the vibrancy of how modern pubs and breweries are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country. And actually, in planning terms, we had arches that were sold off under the last government. Unfortunately, to make when when Network Rail was reclassified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. In order to fill that gap, the government of the day sold off the family. Silver sold off the railway arches that Network Rail owned in my area. We also have ones owned by transport for London, and that meant that they are now owned by many of them in my area by the Arches Company, The Arch, the Arch Company, some in Gateshead. Similarly, but a large percentage in. part of London and parts of South London, I think maybe in the Ministers businesses, which I'll. I'll touch on in a moment. I'll certainly give one

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point. I thank the hon. Lady, similar to. In her constituency in Shipley. to. In her constituency in Shipley. We have an old tram shed which was very successfully converted. very successfully converted. Location now for a brewery salts, Location now for a brewery salts, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. And restaurant and gathering place. And so again, whilst that is not, I guess strictly within the definition of this bill as a heritage pub, the tram shed itself obviously is a heritage space and is is now producing fantastic local beers, which I would encourage, obviously all hon. Members when they come to Shipley to make sure they come and sample the excellent

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beers produced there at salts. I think, my hon. Friend, for that intervention and with with the indulgence of the chair I don't want to get too much into every clause of the bill because this is a debate about the principles. But a debate about the principles. But I think the important principle that she highlights is that you can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the or might not quite meet the definition. So just to be clear to the House, the definition under the right hon. Gentleman rightly right hon. Gentleman rightly highlighted, and you have to be to be heritage heritage, public house needs to be at least 150 years old and has been used as a public house in the last ten years. So there's a debate there about something that maybe, you know, was a pub 11 years ago. So there's also a gap there, I think. But under section B has been most recently used as a public house, and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance, meriting consideration in planning decisions. Now it's a debateable point, whether a tram shed which may have gone through further changes, often different, different eras of planning have changed things. In fact, I remember in in Shoreditch there was one warehouse in Shoreditch, in the heart of Shoreditch that had not been assassinated by the Victorian. In the Victorian era, very unusually, it had been in sole ownership for many, many years. And as a result, when the development occurred on that site and of course, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum and their archaeology department, brought in, as they are in London, for every planning development, they discovered that there was land there that had been where Shakespeare had himself performed one of his first plays, and they have now under a gas in that the building, when it was developed, preserved some of that very ground where Shakespeare, the bard himself trod. And I think that that shows that that buildings move and change. And so I, I think my you know, without swaying too much into the detail, but I think the definition here is really important, important issue. So it may be in her constituency that that that tram shed would qualify. But obviously some of the old tram shed trappings have been removed. And as before, the change of use, it may not. So I think that there's an interesting point there. But let me go back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures in place, which is why I think that this bill maybe overlaying that unnecessarily, local planning authorities have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. The maximum penalty, of course, is an unlimited fine. Now, the the crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine doesn't resolve the problem. So I think that there is there is a gap in current planning law that, you know, if you've got deep pockets and we all have examples, I'm sure in our constituencies, whether in our time or predecessor's time, where there are mysterious fires or things happen, and the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets who can pay the penalty, but then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. And I'm you know, I think with the crooked House, clearly there were people who had no no regard for the punishment that might fall upon them.

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Jo White thank you for giving way. Just to give an example, perhaps a hopeful example, just outside my constituency, a developer knocked down the Carlton Tavern and Westminster Council ordered the pub to be built, rebuilt brick by brick, and it has now reopened and is proving really now reopened and is proving really popular. So it is possible to stay the course and get that, get that enforcement and that planning

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enforcement and that planning system to come in, even when someone may have actually broken the law initially. Indeed, and I've seen that there is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt. Now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute for the blind. You know, you look at it and you can see the shape of the old building. Sadly, it doesn't have all the character. So there's nothing that quite protects a building. But I think so. I think there may be. And maybe the Minister could respond in her remarks, you know, is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such heritage importance. And maybe there is some scope, even if this bill does not pass for the hon. Gentleman's, the some of the thrust of the hon. Member's proposals and desires, which are clearly, you know, there's some some agreement on some parts of this across the House for the government to consider in a future planning bill. And certainly, you know, if it weren't to go through today, I would be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on on such issues. And I I suspect there may be some wider support for that. And the other area, of course, around planning is about listed buildings and pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension which affect the listed buildings, character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. And of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. But again, I ask the Minister maybe there is a scope here and the crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen. You know, are the sanctions enough where there is wilful, wilful action to interfere with buildings, whether listed as I've highlighted or not. And I think that we need to to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to to future planning law. I wanted to move on, as I perhaps hinted in my interventions to other honourable. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme about what we consider heritage to be. And as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, he's tried to define this in this bill, and I don't I'm not knocking the attempt to do this, but heritage is more than just the building. We're talking about pubs, because pubs are not just a building. And I think about in my constituency, the pubs that are emerging are a modern heritage we have now. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I've got in my constituency and I'd be very, very happy to arrange a visit to breweries in my constituency. We are the crucible of craft brewing in one ward in Hackney Central. At one point there were five craft breweries, though the famous Five Points Brewery, named after the five point roundabout at Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based, has actually moved to another part of Hackney to. I think it's based in Victoria Ward, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site, but but. And set up by Ed Mason originally. And that these modern spaces, they're actually very not just about the space and what they're brewing. They actually work hard to bring in heritage hops in many cases. There's relationships that some of my microbreweries have with Kent Farms. They're trying to create British beers with British hops, and they're really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but looking backward historically, and I think that heritage is important too. And where there could be challenges that mean that those pubs and bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, business rates, energy prices, these are things that are putting the hospitality businesses under great pressure. I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Company that has a again, under an arch in Hackney Central, just near to the

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church itself. And that is one of our our. Understanding. Order number 11.

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Understanding. Order number 11. We shall now move to this statement. We shall now move to this statement. I'll give Frontbenches just a few moments. Minister.

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moments. Minister. Emma Hardy thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And just before, if
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Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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his murder. It was always a real pleasure to work with him on the pleasure to work with him on the endometriosis APPG group, and he is remembered very fondly. So remembered very fondly. So returning to the ongoing drought situation in England, drought situation in England, drought conditions continue across much of England. Last week, Yorkshire moved into drought status. That means into drought status. That means over 80% of England is now in drought, affecting around 50 million people.

The southeast and southwest in particular, have experienced their driest April to September in over a century, with low rainfall causing exceptionally low reservoir levels in parts of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, East Sussex and West Sussex. As of the 15th of October, Wimbleball Reservoir is approximately 16% full, its lowest recorded level for this time of year. Other reservoirs in the southwest are also at exceptionally low levels, including those serving the Roadford and Colyford water Resource zones, and Ardingly Reservoir, for example, is around 20% full as a result, yesterday, the government declared severe drought in the affected water resource zones around Wimbleball, Ardingly, Roadford, Colyford and in West Cornwall.

I have also issued a ministerial direction to the Environment Agency to prioritise protecting public water supplies in areas affected by severe drought, where there is an unavoidable trade off between the environmental rules and water supplies. This will allow water companies to keep more water in depleted reservoirs. The Environment Agency has also agreed temporary measures that will conserve water in wimbleball and extend the resilience of public water supplies. Madam Deputy Speaker severe drought is the highest classification in the Environment Agency's drought framework.

While customer supplies are not interrupted, declaring a severe drought allows us to ensure proactive steps are taken to safeguard water before any disruption occurs. For example, we have instructed water companies to conduct daily monitoring of reservoir and river levels and tougher water quality monitoring. The Environment Agency will increase compliance checks on businesses that withdraw water from natural sources to ensure they are only taking permitted quantities of water, and local resilience forums would be stood up to enable quick and effective development of support if required.

While water companies remain responsible for maintaining public water supplies and for taking action under their drought and emergency plans, we can all help by thinking about ways to use water wisely over the coming weeks. However, this level of drought is something we have not experienced for decades, so it is right that governments step up our support and work closely with water companies to protect public supplies in the areas affected. Over recent days, I have met with those leading efforts to protect water supplies in affected areas, including Wimbleball.

On Wednesday, I visited Wimbleball Reservoir where I met with South West Water, Wessex Water, the Local Resilience Forum and Environment Agency teams to discuss the actions they are taking to protect public water supply. Yesterday I met with the Chief Executive of South East Water and representatives from the Environment Agency to review conditions at Ardingly Reservoir and the response in the South East. I have also spoken with Members of Parliament representing affected constituencies, and sent them letters explaining the steps they can take to support our resilience efforts in their local areas.

This week, I chaired the first meeting of the government's new Flood and Drought Resilience Task Force, bringing together over 50 stakeholders to strengthen the nation's ability to plan for and respond to extreme weather, and I continue to oversee response measures through weekly national drought group meetings to track that all necessary actions are taken to conserve water resources and maintain resilience. Madam Deputy Speaker, While the record breaking heat and lack of rainfall have put our water resources under immense pressure this year, we must take action now to prevent this situation becoming the norm.

We are at the start of a decade long journey into a very different water system, including nine new major reservoirs to secure supplies. I will continue to take the action needed to protect essential public water supplies. And of course, I will continue to keep the House and members informed as the situation develops.
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Robbie Moore Portrait Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)
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Shadow Minister Robbie Moore. >> Shadow Minister Robbie Moore. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement. Today's update reinforces what Today's update reinforces what farmers, rural communities and households have known for months. England is in the grip of a drought and the government has been slow to react. 11 areas are now in drought, with Yorkshire the latest to be declared. Ten water companies have hosepipe bans enforced.

Drought related environmental incidents have already overtaken the totals of 2022 and 25. This is the third drought in five years. It should not have caught the government off guard, but here we are. Madam Deputy Speaker, on a sitting Friday, listening to the water Minister roll out an emergency statement, effectively saying she's been busy having meetings on the 31st of July. Two and a half months ago, the shadow Secretary of State for DEFRA wrote to the Environment Agency, setting out six practical steps.

Ministers have since said that they will adopt some of them, which is welcome. But it is highly surprising that for a government Minister from a department which represents food policy, that there was not one mention in her statement about the impact that the drought is having on our farmers and our growers. Why was that? So? The key questions remain. The government talks the big game about its new water bill and taking back public control. Yet the primary action announced today is instructing water companies to conduct daily monitoring.

Does that mean that they haven't been doing that to date? If the National Drought Group has been meeting regularly since August, why are water companies only now being told to step up their drought planning? And why is the Minister willing to relax strict environmental regulations for water companies when they have failed to protect customer supplies through not undertaking significant investment in dealing with leakage and enhancing water storage? What does this say to the many households who are facing increased water bills? The Minister highlights upgrades in investment and promises to build nine new major reservoirs.

But she has also admitted that this is a decade long journey. Our communities, our farmers, our businesses are facing severe challenges today. When exactly will the first reservoir be built and what time frame for each will and will she release a time frame for each? Some on farm reservoirs are reporting a fifth to to be a fifth full or less heading into winter. Yet farmers are still waiting for the reopened Water management grant and planning and licensing hurdles to building water storage remain far too high.

The government announced a £65 million drought package. But what has happened to it? It was money already sitting unallocated in the farming Budget. Most of it poured into the sustainable farming incentive. And look what happened to that. So will she update on progress, on making it easier for farmers to have on farm storage of reservoir reservoirs? We, on this side of the house, will work constructively with anyone serious about protecting our food and water security, but we will hold this government to account when it falls short.

And right now it is falling short, significantly short of what farmers, rural communities and our households expect.
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Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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Well, it's a shame that the opposition spokesperson is not taking this with the seriousness it requires. And just to respond requires. And just to respond briefly to what this government has done, there are many things I can do. Madam Deputy Speaker, do. Madam Deputy Speaker, unfortunately, I can't make it rain, but what I can do is ensure that this government is prepared. And that is exactly what we've been doing going back to February this year, Defra and Cobra ran a cross-government drought exercise to test the current response arrangements with lessons learned from the previous year.

So we have been planning for this since I came into government, because this government actually believes that climate change is real. We are not the government of climate change deniers. We are not the government that wishes to repeal the Climate Change Act, and that thinks that actually, when it's sunny, we should be just enjoying more barbecues. This government has been preparing for drought from the time I became water Minister. So in February we ran the cross-government exercise.

We have been working with water companies to have emergency drought or drought measures last winter, last winter. So nearly over a year ago, regulators and water companies were already looking to take actions because we know that this is the new normal when it comes to our weather. This is exactly why we are preparing for it. And when the gentleman speaks about what we are doing to support farmers, it is this government that is giving £15 million for on farm reservoirs.

It is this government that is making the planning system easier for them to build the reservoirs. It is this government that is introducing and looking at flexible extraction so they can fill the reservoirs that we are helping them build. And it is, frankly, that government that has failed to prepare for any of this during the 14 years they were in office.
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Al Pinkerton Portrait Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)
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OK. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Liberal Democrats are deeply concerned by the declaration of severe drought across the South severe drought across the South east and the South west, and it's a stark warning. We are in the grips of a climate crisis, and our water of a climate crisis, and our water system lacks the resilience to address the water security that that climate crisis is substantially causing. The government and water companies must act now and at speed.

Families, schools and businesses deserve to know that their taps will keep running and this will not become the new normal. And the best way to save water is by not wasting the water we've got. So water companies must act to cut leakage, follow drought plans, and invest in resilient infrastructure. Bill payer should not pay for decades of underinvestment. While nearly 3,000,000,000l of water escaped through leaking pipes every day. Now farmers and food production faced enormous pressures.

Farmers may already have lost hundreds of millions of pounds to drought this year, and indeed, the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit estimates losses of nearly £5 billion across three weather hit years. Food security is, as I know, the Minister knows national security, but the family farm tax DEFRA Budget cuts and mishandling of the sustainable farming incentive are right now putting agriculture in jeopardy. So will the government change course and back the Liberal Democrat plan for an additional £1 billion in the farming Budget? Long term, we need greater water storage, recycling, transfers and sustainable desalination, alongside fundamental reform of failing water companies to cope with the changing climate.

And Britain's farmers have enormous untapped potential to store water. Outdated planning rules and inadequate support are holding them back, and the government's £15 million reservoir fund doesn't even scratch the surface. So a question can the Minister, will the Minister today commit to a national call to store programme to identify on farm storage capacity, remove planning barriers and back farmers who want to be part of the solution?
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Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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Yeah. absolutely right to highlight how important is that farmers are able to store water on their land. It is something that we've been working something that we've been working very closely with the NFU with through the National Drought Group, but as well, as I sort of alluded to in response to the spokesperson, as well as building the reservoirs, we also need to focus on how are we filling them up. So there's some really interesting work going on with Defra, the Environment Agency and the NFU looking at regional water resource groups to how can we strengthen water companies livestock resilience, which I know is one of the concerns that where there's been supply outages are a big concern.

But also looking at one of those approaches being developed by South East Water, where we have livestock registers so that the water companies are aware of where there's need for water, for livestock, but also looking at this flexible and dynamic abstraction, because one of the things that the farmer said to me, which I absolutely support them with, was the strict abstraction. Licences they have at the moment are based on dates rather than the amount of water that's in the environment.

So what we're looking to trial in, in areas and sort of roll out is much more what I would call a common sense approach to abstraction of if it's suddenly chucked it down with rain and allow them to take more water, because my ambition is how, as well as dealing with the immediate situation now with the extreme drought. But how can we ensure our reservoirs are as full as possible going into spring next year? So I'm very keen to work in partnership, and it's always a balance between thinking about, obviously public health is the number one and must come first, but then thinking about public health and the environment and ensuring that farmers have what they need.

 And so that's why that national drought group matters so much. It brings together all the important players and sort of we try and work through through that together. But it is absolutely at the forefront of my mind to.
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Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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reiterate it, of course, I will work very closely with all constituents, all members of Parliament directly impacted. I do Parliament directly impacted. I do want to reassure her there are no current plans for the use of standpipes. Our declaration of standpipes. Our declaration of severe drought means a slight change in terms of prioritisation from the Environment Agency, and they have that direction that they have that direction that public health must come first. It is looking at increasing monitoring. Of course, we're preparing for every scenario, you know, as a every scenario, you know, as a responsible government, but there is no immediate plans for standpipes.

Our immediate sort of request from all members of Parliament actually is pleased. If you can go and share the Let's Save Water campaign, which is a national campaign, has been running all summer. Hopefully some of you have seen it. The little kids in the blue tracksuit. I've seen some nodding. That's great. If we can try and share that as much as we possibly can. But she's quite right to highlight resilience because that is a challenge with South East Water. They again are one of those companies that have almost islands where they're unable to move water around.

So she's absolutely right to point that out as a problem. And that is something we want to work with the company for. It's like, let's deal with this emergency right now. But what are their longer term plans to have greater resilience? And that has to be looking at the ability to move water around. And she's absolutely right to say that that must involve working closely with Southern Water as well.
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Meg Hillier Portrait Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )
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And that concludes the statement. >> And that concludes the statement. Den Meg Hillier. Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. And I was, I think, just talking about the I think, just talking about the Hackney Church Brew Company and many of the other independent breweries are underneath the arches.

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breweries are underneath the arches. And I give way to my hon. Friend. I'm conscious. I've spoken a lot, but the hon. Lady, before she was interrupted with a statement, said that she'd like to arrange a visit for members of the House to visit one of her breweries, while the Member for Kensington has said he'll happily get the first round. So can I encourage the hon. Lady to

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get arranging sooner rather than later? Everybody is always welcome, Madam Deputy Speaker to Hackney Madam Deputy Speaker to Hackney South and Shoreditch, which is really the centre of the universe, though of course in this place there may be others who disagree there may be others who disagree with me, but it is also only half an hour on a bike or by public transport, so I highly recommend it transport, so I highly recommend it and a good night out will be had by all. But these actually these new breweries and pubs are really bucking the trend in hospitality. bucking the trend in hospitality. The arch archway areas are becoming hubs for other businesses too, so our high streets can be challenging. They're actually impacting our high streets still do reasonably well, partly because people are, though Hackney is often described as very hip and very cool and very expensive, which certainly those things are true. It is also still achingly poor. 1 in 2 children live in poverty, though, thanks to the government's changes on child poverty, that will hopefully reduce. And nearly 60% of people live in social housing, many of whom are living in very overcrowded conditions. But so so these are these arches are a part of, if you like, a new hackney, but also building very much on the traditions of the old. I also highlight Saint Monday, which is a very innovative brewery that's combining brewing with heavy metal. So if you're any heavy metal, fans here can get a bit of real ale and heavy metal all in the same place. Great. Beyond Taproom and Brewery, another archway based set up by Oli, Nick and John, three beer loving friends. They do some amazing work. You can buy some great Shoreditch and Hackney named beers. I forget which one serves which now, but we need to do a crawl of all the ones named after Hoxton, Shoreditch and that alone would keep us busy. The Howling Hops Brewery brews on site as well. I really like the 40 foot brewery in Dalston, which I go to every now and then. It was named 40 foot because it was built, had two shipping containers, not arches this time, but 220 foot shipping containers. Hence it's the 40 foot brewery. Now that wouldn't meet the heritage standards of the hon. Gentleman. But actually there is an interesting, you know, interesting new heritage coming through in our breweries and the signature brewery in Haggerston, which also offers tours, in fact, as many do, I mentioned Five Points Brewery, you can do a tour there. So anyone thinking as we approach the festive season that they need to get a gift for somebody, I highly recommend a visit to Hackney and a tour of one of the breweries. But I mean, so these are the modern this is the modern culture that's coming through. Some of these are in heritage buildings. You could say that the arches are in their own heritage. So they. The challenge would be whether they would qualify under the hon. Gentleman's bill. But I wanted to talk a bit about the assets of community value, because I think this is when I read the hon. Gentleman's bill, the first time I was trying to find what was specifically different to the assets of community value, and he did outline some of that in his speech. I'm a little wiser to his thinking, but of course, this was introduced in England in the Localism Act of 2011, and it provides communities with a route to nominate and retain any building or land, such as heritage pubs, which they feel furthers the social wellbeing or interest of the community. And local authorities are responsible for ensuring that their assets of community value. That scheme is run in accordance with the legislation, which is set out for hansard's purposes in part three, chapter five of the Localism Act 2011 and the Assets of Community Value England Regulations of 2012, and this includes many making decisions on whether a nominated asset meets the definition of an asset of community value, as set out in the Act. And what another reason I'm sceptical about this bill, though I don't have any. No no scepticism about the hon. Gentleman's intent. I think, as I've said before, a lot of us share, but the government is already strengthening the scheme and I'm sure the Minister will go into this. In her remarks, through provisions contained in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act of 2026, and that will introduce a new community Right to Buy, which covers some of the clauses in his bill. I won't name more because I can't remember all the numbers, but I think it's clause nine from memory that people how people can put in a bid to own a property. But communities will have the first opportunity to purchase an asset if it's put up for sale by its owner within 12. With 12 months to raise funding and get an independent, have an independent valuation process ensuring a fair price so that negotiation is successful. So this is sort of really mirrors a lot of what's in the hon. Gentleman's bill. So he's very welcome to intervene and tell me why he thinks it's

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different. And again, perhaps to reiterate some of the points, but. The whole point is it really

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The whole point is it really isn't different. A large parts of it are copied directly from what the government introduced for us as a community value. But at the point, a community value. But at the point, as I said in my opening speech, is that in most cases, community that in most cases, community groups do not go through the, you know, quite complex process of know, quite complex process of getting the the building facility registered as an asset of community value until there is a direct threat that they know about, by which point, as we saw with the crooked House, as we may yet see with pubs like the Macbeth in her constituency, which aren't, I don't think. Currently. Assets of community value. If those came under threat, it would almost certainly be too late for the community to then respond and to get the community right to buy this is making sure that that is available from day one for these really important historic pubs in

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her constituency and mine. Hon. Gentleman, for that clarification, because actually that means that we just all need to that means that we just all need to be, as we've talked with compassion already today, about pubs that we value and heritage, buildings and heritage that we value in our heritage that we value in our constituencies to push for these to become assets of community value. And I want to give an example from my constituency, the Chesham Arms my constituency, the Chesham Arms on Mehetabel Road, which was Hackney's first ever asset of community value.

The pub was is 162 community value. The pub was is 162 years old and it closed in 2012 and the owner at the time just assumed it would be able to be turned into flats. It's in a residential street. It's a very, you know, a traditional east London pub in a terrace. Part of that terrace is, you know, not a lot. It's not very big. It's just a little local neighbourhood pub. And when it closed, there was this assumption that it would be easy to be redeveloped.

But the council stepped in. Then under labour control we have an elected mayor as well in Hackney, although of course planning matters are a matter not for the elected mayor and it defended it from that redevelopment and it reopened in 2015. A real success story. But the hon. Gentleman was right, though, because the the challenge was it closed and then became an asset of community value. So I think learning from that lesson and from the very comments that he made, we need to all be ahead of the curve on this.

And whether it's a tram shed that's a heritage building that's become a pub, or whether it's a pub that's been there for a very long time, or a coffee house that's become a pub, whatever, or whatever the cultural issues are, we can push for those to be assets of community value wider than the hon. Gentleman's bill. And I think that this is perhaps today I you know, I suggest to well, to the Minister, but to to all colleagues that we maybe have this as a, a a call to arms for us to implement the essence of the amendment, hon.

Member's bill without having to go through a quite a complicated process, which actually, I think narrows it too much. And I think there's an opportunity for us to broaden what a cultural, culturally rich and heritage site is and maybe push for community assets of community value to be more widespread, as rightly as he says, ahead of threat. I'm not going to go through all the pubs in my constituency. We would be here a very long time. And Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm aware that there are other people come speak.

Needless to say, I'm very happy to to arrange a tour at, at at any point. And I'm sure the various of the, the bodies that I've worked with over the years on, on beer and brewery breweries will be keen to help empower that. And in fact, it was the current Chancellor that was instrumental when he was working in the Treasury that helped change the taxation on small breweries to make it possible for these craft breweries to exist.

And they create many jobs in brewing and, of course, in hospitality and and are bucking, you know, they're still trying and struggling at times, but they are bucking the trend compared with a lot of other other assets. So I think that we, we need to be more ambitious as members. We do not need necessarily to legislate for everything. We have the legislation here in place, and I think that we are very capable of making sure that we use the legislation.

We've got to protect the assets that hon. Members have already so far eloquently spoken of and defended. So I'm happy to continue to work with the hon. Gentleman about the the intent of his bill. But on. I don't feel this is the bill to support. I think we can deliver on his agenda without passing this bill today.
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Rebecca Smith Portrait Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)
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Yeah. privilege to be able to speak in the debate that my colleague has secured on this very important secured on this very important topic of heritage public houses, and I am very privileged to have 64 pubs or as a couple of conservative clubs in the numbers as well, which is worth mentioning whilst we're here. And actually that is quite a few compared to some members who I know only have a handful, particularly the more urban constituencies aren't always as fortunate to have as many pubs as constituencies that are that nice mix of urban and rural as mine is. And given the nature of my constituency, which in large part is made up of historic villages that have either merged into the city of Plymouth or have remained as very sweet South Hams or Dartmoor villages. We therefore do have a large number of historic pubs, because we know that they would have been a key part of the community. They would have been the stopping points for those travelling potentially up from Cornwall through Devon and on to London, and also key parts of fishing communities and urban and rural communities as well, and therefore villages like Noss, Mayo and Newton Ferrers have, I think, 4 or 5 pubs between them. And when you go there, they're very small. And actually you'd be shocked at how many there are. But I can reassure you that they they maintain a healthy trade and the muscle in in down. Thomas is also another key one of those country pubs that serves excellent food in the. The bits that are now in Plymouth, Plympton and Plymstock because they really were villages before they were formed into the city. You have some very historic pubs there and I'm going to touch on a couple of those shortly, but it's worth mentioning that the. What was the village of Turnchapel? You very proudly refer to it still as the village, but is an important part of the city of Plymouth as well, and the Boringdon Arms and the Colne Valley Bay in. There are both key parts of the community, unfortunately, are being kept going through the marine autonomy work that is happening in a former Royal Marine base next door. The historic Drake Manor in in Buckland, Monachorum, which hopefully Sir Francis Drake himself will be pleased to have been the namesake of Milton Coombe has the. Who'd have thought it? Which is your classic thatched pub at the bottom of the hill, in a very tiny little village, but which serves the most wonderful food, and I always make sure I go with friends just before Christmas. And we have a fantastic community led pub in Cornwood, who recently was shortlisted for one of the Cla's rural prizes and came all the way to the House of Commons and although they weren't a winner that day, were very proud to be nominated. And indeed the old Smithy, which is not named after me but is a very good pub in Ivybridge as well. So that's just a few. And like others in the room in the chamber this this afternoon, this morning I. I won't name all of them, but I thought it was worth putting them on a. On record, and I think it's also worth just mentioning the many names that these pubs have. And we've heard of Woolsacks and all sorts of historic names. And we know that even the. The bars within the House of Commons are named for specific historic reasons. And I want to particularly mention the Skylark in the little village of Clearbrook. And if anybody is ever up on Dartmoor, you will hear the Skylark tweeting away across the moors. And I think that's what's so wonderful about these historic pubs is the names reflect something either historic or something that is specifically tied to the culture of that local community, and I think it draws young people to have that connection with the history as well. Once you have these names, I want to make a special mention, if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the community groups that I know exist all over the country to help pubs actually survive just through sending people on walk routes around them or highlighting them by running competitions. And there's a very thriving Facebook page called Plymouth on Tap, which does exactly that, and which runs a very comprehensive competition with all sorts of different rounds where it will pitch pubs in certain communities about, and to then head towards the the final winners. And I think it is worth just mentioning the volunteers behind Facebook pages or websites like that, who do so much and in their words, to map Plymouth's pub history and fight for the ones we've still got. And I think it's worth paying tribute to them and to the organisers in particular of that group, this this morning. Which leads me on to the value of us as members of Parliament doing competitions. And I, like many others, have run a pub of the year competition and I'm delighted that the winner over the last two years is a historic heritage pub in my constituency, the London in in Plympton St Maurice, one of those old, old villages is a 16th century grade two listed building, but can still muster up enough votes each year to have one for two years in a row, which Madam Deputy Speaker means I am adding in some extra categories for the year ahead to make sure that there are some other options of those who can win. But Simon, the landlord, knows that I'm doing that and is going to be hopefully pushing for the best pub in Plympton, and maybe, who knows, he'll win the overall best pub as well. But again, it. It goes back to that point I made about the importance of these heritage pubs and the stories that they tell, because Saint Maurice, a village, as I've already alluded to, was along a major route to London. Who'd have thought it? Little old Plympton Saint Maurice would have been a stopping point for Plymouth on that way. And there's an incredible history that I won't fully go into today, Madam Deputy Speaker, but maybe I should get an adjournment debate on it at some point. Plymouth Plympton Saint Maurice is the home of many, many fine 17th and 18th century artists. So if anybody is sat waiting to speak and wishes to look up the history of Charles Eastlake or indeed Joshua Reynolds, you will see that the London in May well even have been frequented by them, as they were schoolboys, and Plympton Grammar School, and then went on to be leading figures in the Royal Academy and the National Gallery. Even so, if anyone is bored this morning, they can have a little look whilst they're listening. And again it sits below a ninth century castle. So these historic pubs are not just historic for the building themselves, their heritage, because of the communities that they sit in, and by the very nature of how old these pubs are, that usually means the community around them has been there for that long as well. And that leads me on to another one of these heritage pubs, the Union in also in Plympton. As you can tell, Plympton is a very old part of my constituency, and what I love is that these buildings do not get hindered by the listings that they might have, and the fact that they're not allowed to make changes to their interiors in the union, in case they very creatively use their garden space, because they are now the home of Plympton Royal British Legion branch. And I've attended several ceremonies with the RBL in the garden of that historic pub, because although the rooms are small and it's incredibly cosy inside, they do have land around them. And so I was privileged to attend a D-Day event there and also a VE day commemoration event, and I know they will appreciate the mention this morning. So I just think that's two very clear examples of strong community roles that these heritage buildings that are, by nature often constricted because of their physicality, that they're able to play in the neighbourhoods. And I think though, it's worth just touching on why these heritage pubs need saving in the first place and why we need to be looking at this legislation today, because given the nature of their very fabric, it is harder sometimes to bring in the numbers or to diversify into serving, you know, a carvery or a particularly complicated food menu, because actually, if they are these heritage buildings with tiny little rooms and steps everywhere, serving food in the way that a lot of modern purpose built pubs do is going to be particularly difficult. But we know that pubs at the moment are facing considerable challenges given the economic climate that we're in at the moment, and the tax increases that the current government have have levelled on them, whether that is those increases in national insurance and the minimum wage for young people and for business rates. And I know that there will be members on the opposite side who say, but we've done some work on business rates for pubs. However, I think the damage has been done already in many cases. And so that's yet another reason why protecting these heritage pubs through enabling them to maintain their roles within the community and ensuring that they can't be turned into historic houses is going to be so important. And indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, I met recently with a constituent who is starting on that journey towards creating or securing a community asset certification for a local pub that has been sold, but ultimately, the hoops that have to be jumped through are incredibly difficult at the moment, and I'm not going to name it because I don't want to ruin what they're planning on doing and the work that's going on in that community to to do things properly. But it has highlighted that there is concern in the communities where these pubs exist that they could lose the designation of being a public house and see a change of use. And so what my hon. Friend is doing through this legislation to build on what is already there, because I know the hon. Member for Hackney has highlighted the legislation that exists already is important because ultimately nobody wants to see what is often a large building in a village turned into flats or the equivalent. And having grown up in the city centre in Plymouth, which is not in my constituency, but just outside, I grew up in a community called Greenbank, which is very historic and, you know, was was once fields and has seen a lot of building over the years. But what was I don't know, is it famous for perhaps you could say is the fact that on pretty much every corner was a pub and if I walked to school, I would walk past probably 4 or 5 small neighbourhood community pubs in amongst terraced houses. And one of the reasons for that is because the neighbouring communities were owned by brethren family who wouldn't allow any pubs in their area. So that meant Greenbank, where I grew up, made up for it in numbers, and there was going to be plenty of pubs for anybody that lived in Saint Jude's or in Hyde Park and Mannamead and the hon. Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport constituency to to get to a pub within the Greenbank community. But what's happened, Madam Deputy Speaker, is because they weren't assets of community value, they were just community like neighbourhood pubs, pretty much without exception. I think there's one that is effectively somebody's living room. The Providence in around the corner from where I grew up, they have been turned into student accommodation. Madam Deputy Speaker And there's nothing worse than seeing historic pubs that were part of a Victorian neighbourhood turned into a pub. Indeed, the one at the end of the road that I grew up on that would have been built as an inn on the corner of a crescent is now student accommodation and what was once a lounge bar and a place you could play darts and a place you could play pool and pop in and have a drink with community. People used to have friends in these pubs that they would go and see, have all been turned into properties that people are now living in. And, you know, students are great, but actually they don't live there the whole year. And instead we've lost that community asset. So that's why I think this legislation with these heritage public houses would be so helpful, because it does ensure that there's some control over the changes within a community that might affect the very fabric of what is going on in that area. Now, I'm not going to speak for much longer, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am just going to say that I think my hon. Friend for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, who is well known for his love of a good ale and a big supporter of the APPG for for is it is it ale or. I'm not an ale drinker, Madam Deputy Speaker so I never quite know the name. I do drink the odd beer, but I'm not not a big, not a big warm ale fan. I'd rather be in a nice crunchy pub. Drinking a glass of wine with my brother's Labrador is yellow, so I didn't quite get the joke, but but I do like the value of it. But I do believe my hon. Friend has raised some valuable points, and his bill offers some smart safeguards. And I do think this is an important debate, because actually, I think what is one of the things that makes the United Kingdom so special is that culture we have of community pubs and historic pubs. We know that they were the coaching inns of the past, places of refuge, places that were safe, that people could stop at if they were travelling on long journeys. And I think they are something that is a particularly British institution. And so I am therefore very grateful to have been able to contribute. Those of you who haven't clocked will know that I obviously love a

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bit of history, and so to be able to talk this afternoon has been wonderful. Thank you. Yeah.

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Linsey Farnsworth. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the right hon. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire on being successful in the private member's ballot bill ballot, having been fortunate enough to secure a place in the ballot myself in the last session.
11:50
Linsey Farnsworth Portrait Linsey Farnsworth MP (Amber Valley, Labour)
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ballot myself in the last session. I know what a privilege it is, but also quite how much work follows my private member's bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, concerned football, and between me and the right hon. Member, we've managed to cover two of my husband Martin's favourite things in life football and pubs. Two of my favourite things, however, are Amber Valley and its history, and so it gives me great pleasure to have the opportunity to speak about it today. It is a fact that my political journey to this place started in the Hunters Arms in Kilburn, a village in my constituency. When I agreed to put myself forward to be Labour's candidate in the general election. So it's an honour to represent the people of Amber Valley and to have the opportunity to speak of our heritage today.

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Yeah, yeah. The Bill centres on the importance of heritage and protecting buildings and places protecting buildings and places that matter to communities, whether because of the events that took place there, the people connected place there, the people connected to them, their architecture, or simply because they have stood at the heart of a community for generations. These places helped tell the story of who we are in supporting the principle behind supporting the principle behind this bill. I'm conscious that heritage takes many forms. Historic pubs are one important part of our built heritage, but they sit along castles, manor houses, theatres, cinemas, churches and industrial buildings that tell the story of our communities. Now, Amber Valley has no shortage of such places. We're fortunate to be home to Wingfield Manor, one of the most important surviving medieval manor houses in the country. Built in the 1440s and perhaps best known as one of the places where Mary Queen of Scots was held during her imprisonment. Today, the site remains closed to the public despite enormous local interest in seeing it reopened. And that's why I'm proud to be working alongside Derbyshire Historic Buildings Trust, which has successfully secured funding for a feasibility study to explore the future of the site with the ambition of ultimately acquiring Wingfield Manor and reopening this nationally significant heritage asset to the public. It's an exciting project, Madam Deputy Speaker, and one that I will continue championing. Likewise in Somercotes, the magnificent premier electric theatre remains one of the area's most striking reminders of its cultural history. Built in 1912, it served generations as a theatre, cinema and community venue before falling into disrepair. Today, local residents and Somercotes Parish Council are working incredibly hard to secure its future, and I've been pleased to support those efforts and hope to see the building restored as a multi-purpose community venue capable of hosting cinema screenings, theatre productions, live music and a wide range of community events. And who knows, Madam Deputy Speaker, maybe even a bar. It has enormous potential and would once again become a real asset for local people. And then there's the Hippodrome in Ripley. Opened in 191313. Sorry, it remains one of the town's most recognisable landmarks. Originally a theatre, then a cinema, a bingo hall and latterly a bar and nightclub called Tonka's. Well, much of the building has been converted into flats. The historic frontage still stands. Many residents raise with me their concerns about its condition and their hopes for its future. I share those concerns and hope that in the years ahead, we can find a positive, long term future for this important part of police heritage. All those campaigns, Madam Deputy Speaker, differ slightly in their details, but they share the common principle with the bill before us today that communities should have a stronger voice in protecting the places that matter to them. That's why I'm particularly supportive of measures that empower local people. Historic pubs already benefit from a range of protections. Demolition or change of use requires planning permission. Listed pubs enjoy additional statutory protections and local authorities have powers available to them through measures such as local heritage listings and building preservation notices. Where appropriate, communities can also act to protect the places that matter to them through the assets of community value regime, ensuring that valued local institutions receive proper consideration before they are lost. Many aspects of this bill build upon that existing framework and upon the wider direction of travel established through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. In particular, I welcome the government's introduction of the New Right to Buy communities, know that their local, know their local assets best, and it's only right that they're given a meaningful opportunity to step in where an important community asset may otherwise be lost. That point, of

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course. I thank the hon. Friend for giving way and for making such an excellent speech. I do declare an interest that the point I'm about to make, I know the person who runs to make, I know the person who runs a Patchworks, which is an evaluation consultancy, but they happened to do an evaluation report happened to do an evaluation report of a community owned pub in Tollerton. Now, this pub was due to close in 2019 and be turned into flats. In that evaluation report, it says that 84% of people said that since the pub had been taken into community ownership, it's a better place to live. 64% said it helped them make and maintain local friendships and in general it created trade, brought jobs and development opportunities for young people. So does she agree with the findings of this evaluation that there's a really good case for community ownership of our heritage pubs, and saving them from being closed and keeping them at the

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heart of our villages. Thank you to my friend, hon. Friend for for her intervention. I absolutely agree, and that example makes a powerful case for why it's makes a powerful case for why it's so important to allow and equip our local communities to to take community assets back into public use and to really celebrate them use and to really celebrate them and enjoy them as a local community. Madam Deputy Speaker, Taken together, the measures that I've mentioned recognise an important principle. Local people should have a stronger voice in shaping the future of the buildings and institutions that matter most to them. However, the provisions relating to the community right to buy, including the extension of the moratorium period, have yet to come into force. So, on behalf of the residents of Amber Valley, I would welcome an update from the Minister on when the necessary regulations and guidance will be published. Community groups across Amber Valley are keen to understand how these powers will operate in practice and, crucially, how soon they can make use of them and Madam Deputy Speaker. That is why I welcome the intention behind this Bill, and whilst I support the objective of protecting historic pubs, I think there is a broader point worth making. The significance of a pub is not simply found in the age of its bricks and mortar. It's found in the memories made there, in the conversations held in the bar and in the communities built around them. After all, heritage isn't just about buildings, it's about people. When people in Ambergate talk about the hurt arms, they're not simply talking about a Victorian inn. They're talking about a place that has formed part of community life for generations. Even its name tells a story, preserving the memory of the hurt family, whose influence on the area stretches back centuries. Although a lesser known story about the. The name of the pub involves a young me coming up with sillier and sillier names for the pub. As we drove past on our way to Matlock Bath for a day out, the sore legs being a favourite of mine back in the day. Now, when people in Riddings talk about the Moulders Arms, affectionately known as the Thack, they aren't simply talking about celebrating its grade two listed status or its distinction as Derbyshire's only thatched pub, they are celebrating a pub whose very name preserves the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge.

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Of course. He's talking about some outstanding pubs in her outstanding pubs in her constituency, but when she mentions the Hurt Arms, does she recognise that because it's neither listed as that because it's neither listed as an asset of community value, nor is it a registered listed building it a registered listed building with statutory protection? Actually, without the provisions in this bill, it would have next to no protections. Even after the improvements in the in the framework are without the provisions in this bill. And so will she think again and actually support it so that pubs in her constituency, like the Hurt Arms, can actually benefit from the

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community. Right to buy. She spoke of. Intervention and he knows that I

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Intervention and he knows that I am supportive of the essence of the bill itself, where betide anybody who tried to take the hurt arms who tried to take the hurt arms away from the people of Amber Valley and I'll come on to the Pentrich revolution in a moment, Pentrich revolution in a moment, and you'll understand why I would never cross my people, my constituents in Amber Valley, particularly. Madam Deputy Speaker, if I take you back to the Mulder's arms. The. As I mentioned, the. Preserving the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge, helping to tell the story of the industry that helped build the modern Amber Valley. And then there's the Seven Sisters in Riddings, built on the site of a former chapel and dating back centuries, it later found itself connected to events surrounding the England's last armed uprising, the Pentridge Revolution, of 1817. Local authorities gathered information and monitored unrest, siting themselves within the pub as the as the rebellion unfolded nearby. If only. The Pentridge Brewing Company, which opened recently, had been around back then, maybe the men wouldn't have gotten as far as to get arrested. Even pub names, Madam Deputy Speaker, that have disappeared often linger in local memory. In parts of Amber Valley, residents still instinctively give directions using the Red Admiral, despite the pub becoming the poet's poet in Castle in Codnor many years ago. And that demonstrates something important. Heritage is not simply found in bricks and mortar. Sometimes it survives in memories, in stories and in the names that communities refuse to let go. Of course, not all pubs with community value are centuries old. Indeed, one of my concerns with debates such as this is that sometimes we risk implying that only old pubs are worth protecting, or indeed, that measures brought in with all good intention may actually stifle progress, particularly those buildings that have already fallen into disrepair. The truth is that today's community pub is tomorrow's heritage pub, and what matters most is whether it serves its community. Take the candle makers in Ripley. The building takes its name from its former life as a candle factory. Fortunately, the business. The. Fortunately for the business, the owners recognised that people in 2026 have rather less need for candles than their Victorian predecessors. They sent. They sensibly concluded that wine and tapas and bringing more people into Ripley town centre would probably do more for our local economy than trying to recreate the candle trade, as they proudly put it themselves. The business owners said. It was founded in 1830, reimagined for 2026, and that strikes me as a rather good description of what successful pubs have always done. They evolve, they adapt, they find new ways of bringing people together. And the same can be said for the Groovers Arms. MPs Hill near Ripley, formerly the beehive, a traditional Victorian pub. It's been transformed into something rather rather different because the main event now happens not in the Victorian building that still exists, but actually in a separate building at the end of the garden, and it's been transformed into something beautiful through live music, community events and Groove Fest, it has found new ways of serving local people and attracting visitors into the area. That adaptation in my submission, should be celebrated, not discouraged. Equally, some pubs thrive precisely because they combine heritage with modern community life. The Dead Poets, a village pub in Holbrook, is a multiple award winning pub and the current Derbyshire Camra pub of the year. It began life as the Cross Keys before being extensively restored, restored and reimagined. Today it hosts quizzes, poetry, events, festivals and community gatherings alongside serving exceptional real ale and cider. Its success demonstrates that protecting heritage is not about freezing buildings in time, it's about ensuring that historic places remain relevant, well used and valued by the communities around them. Likewise, newer venues such as Mary Lou's Smokehouse and Craft Bar in Ripley demonstrate how pubs continue to innovate from the outside. One might assume it's a traditional micropub, but step inside, however, and you'll find a large, vibrant venue hosting live country music, comedy nights, themed events, food and entertainment alongside its drinks offering. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I recently dropped in there with some members of Young Labour following a campaign session for which I had a quick drink. I then left them to it to enjoy themselves. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm in no position to confirm or deny whether any line dancing took place later that evening. You'd have to ask them. The same is true of Amber Valley growing micropub sector. Whether it's Tom said in Ripley or the tip in in Loscoe, these smaller venues are providing. Proving enormously popular because they offer something. People increasingly value character, conversation and community. Their buildings may not yet qualify as heritage assets, but they are already becoming community assets. That's why, while I support protecting historic pubs where appropriate, I believe we must also

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focus on helping pubs survive and thrive with. My friend is making a really important point because these newer venues are often in the places or doing delivering the services that doing delivering the services that the clientele want. So there's nothing wrong with preserving other buildings. But sometimes older pubs buildings. But sometimes older pubs can't always be preserved as pubs for all sorts of other reasons because of the development around the area or just changing demographics. So is there would you want to name as invidious to ask? An MP is a favourite modern pub in her constituency that she thinks should be an asset of community

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value? Thank you to to the hon. Member for her question. That does put me for her question. That does put me in somewhat of a delicate position, in somewhat of a delicate position, doesn't it? I do love all of the pubs in my my constituency, and I will probably leave it as tactfully will probably leave it as tactfully as that. I'm very lucky to have such wonderful pubs, including a lot of micro pubs coming up, one of which you'll hear more about shortly. Madam Deputy Speaker. As I as I say, we need to focus on helping all pubs survive and thrive. And when I met publicans from across Amber Valley earlier this year, I found people who were incredibly proud of what they do. They were proud of the jobs they create. They were proud of the role that they play in bringing communities together. But I would not describe them as being totally optimistic. They spoke candidly about rising costs, changing consumer habits and the pressures facing the sector, and many told me they were seeing drinking patterns shift, with customers increasingly using pubs earlier in the evening than less frequently late at night. They were adapting, as pubs always have, but they wanted government to recognise the challenges they face. That is why I welcome the support this government is providing and the government is introducing, of course, the community right to buy, giving communities a genuine opportunity to take ownership of valued local assets. And it's banning upward only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies, ending a practice that has too often left businesses facing rent increases, irrespective of wider economic conditions. And of course, it also announced a 20% reduction in business rate bills next year, a measure expected to save the typical pub around £1,000. None of these measures alone will solve every challenge facing the sector, but together they represent practical support both for pubs and the communities they serve. Now, if hon. Members are now thinking that Amber Valley appears to have an unusually impressive collection of pubs, then I can assure them that they are absolutely correct. Any members wishing to verify that claim for themselves would be most welcome to to visit. They will find a warm Derbyshire welcome, a rich industrial and social history and I would respectfully suggest some of the finest pubs anywhere in the country. After all. Come and see for yourself, members. After all, there are far worse ways to learn about the history of a place than spending a day exploring the pubs that have helped shape it. For those unable to make the journey immediately, there is another opportunity on the horizon. On the 3rd of November, I will have the pleasure of pulling a pint in stranger's bar of alter egos own brewed cask ale, Mr. Brown, produced by the fantastic team at the Tip Inn in Loscoe and selected a stranger's guest beer. I do hope that Mr. Brown is named after our

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former Prime Minister. I will. Ask. I hope members from across the

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I hope members from across the House will give it a try. If they enjoy it, I hope it might encourage them to pay a visit to Amber Valley them to pay a visit to Amber Valley and experience the real thing for themselves. But ultimately, that brings me back to the bill before brings me back to the bill before us today. I support protecting historic pubs and protecting our heritage, but we should remember that pubs are about far more than the buildings they occupy.

The best way to preserve our pub heritage is not simply to prevent demolition or conversion, it's to ensure that pubs remain thriving, sustainable and well used parts of community life. Because a pub without people is simply a building, it is the community inside that gives it its value. And that's why, whilst I support the intention of the Bill, I hope we will continue to focus not only on preserving the pubs of the past, but on securing the future of all pubs that bring our communities together.
12:11
Lincoln Jopp Portrait Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)
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Yes, Lincoln Jopp thank you, Madam Speaker. >> On my way home last night, I popped in at the Three Horseshoes popped in at the Three Horseshoes in Shepperton because it's on the way. And. And this morning when when I was driving into work with my wife, she said, oh, what are you doing in Parliament today? And I said, I am supporting the British pub industry. And she said deadpan, trust me, you're doing your bit already. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I just say the debate today has been quite long, and I would just like to draw attention to the comment by the member of Newcastle-under-Lyme, and I'd be very happy to take an intervention from him because I. The official figures are in. And having checked with Hansard, he. He mentioned Spelthorne in his speech more frequently than he mentioned his own constituency. So if he wants to stand up and intervene on me so he can say the name of his constituency a few more times just to even up the scores, I would, of course, take that intervention.

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And for giving way. It's a case of first time for everything. I don't think I can be accused of not making the case for Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I

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Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I can, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are.

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There are. There are many more colleagues in the chamber other than Mr. Adam Jogee Lincoln Jopp.

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Jogee Lincoln Jopp. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There is. Madam Deputy Speaker, you may or may not be aware that there is a rumour in the. At large in Parliament and alive in the tea rooms, and it is this that hon. Members only have to mention a name of a pub in their constituency, and then take the hard copy and send it to that pub of Hansard where that name is mentioned. And the next time that they go in there, they get a free pint. That that is, of course, that is, of course, completely untrue, a point that I've had to make to the landlord of the happy landing in Stanwell, the King Fairway and Ashford, the White horse in Sunbury and the Wheatsheaf and Pigeon on the Staines Leyland Road, a pub where I will be going tomorrow to lodge my Save Kempton Park banner for a week as it tours my Spelthorne constituency. The. I would like to congratulate the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this debate. I think she's not in her place anymore, but the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. That was a genuine exchange of ideas as to whether the protections envisaged in this private member's bill are required, and the story of the crooked House is a is a salutary one. And I have a couple of well, I have a number of very historic pubs, including the Admiral Hall, an 18th century pub named after the former First Sea Lord and member of Parliament for Portsmouth and the Bells in Staines. And if. If they were to burn down under suspicious circumstances, they are neither listed nor are they assets of listed as assets of community value, so they would be further protected under this private member's bill. So I think there is merit. But the the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch said sort of her. So what from that was that? Well, we should all therefore be encouraging our communities to get together. If they do value their pubs and to have them registered as assets of community value. And that clearly isn't happening as much as the legislation perhaps envisaged, hence this private member's bill. But can I just make the observation that we call them an asset of community value with a big A, a big C and a big V? And normally we do that to try and protect them when they're in trouble. Let's take away the capital letters and just say that those pubs are assets of community value and encourage all of our people to invest in them by going to them. Because, tragically, the British Beer and Pub Association report that we are on track this year for losing a pub a day in Britain, 300 have closed in the first nine months of this year, and we've had not much of a sense of the the challenges that they face. But certainly I won't, you know, go too political on it. But the landlords I speak to are very aware of the additional challenges of business rates, minimum wage and employers, national insurance that they have been put under. But I do think that the the onus is on all of us. It's so tragic when a pub closes and everyone gets up in arms and I would ask, how often have you been there? And they'd say, oh, last went there last year. And, and pubs really need our help. And so I would, I actually, if this were to come to a vote, I would support the hon. Member's private member's bill, but I am delighted that we have had an opportunity to raise some of the issues of the British pub industry

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and the challenges that they face and the protections that they need. Thank you. Madam Lizzi Collinge.

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Madam Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman from Kingswinford hon. Gentleman from Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for raising the important issue of heritage pubs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I grew pubs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I grew up in a small village in north Cumbria. We were lucky enough to have two pubs, both of which I have two pubs, both of which I worked in as a teenager, most memorably one Christmas Day when I was presented with a Mrs. Santa Claus outfit to wear which, as a teenager more interested in heavy metal, was not something I was very pleased about. But these pubs were very important community hubs and I feel very lucky now to represent my constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale, which has many more excellent pubs than I could possibly mention. In one speech and before this debate, I went on Facebook to ask my constituents what their favourite heritage pub once was, and my comment section was absolutely inundated. It was fantastic to see the passion that my constituents have for their locals. So Morecambe and Lunesdale has dozens of great public houses, with many of them with beautiful heritage features or in important heritage settings. One of the pubs in my town of Heysham, the Old Hall Pub, is apparently the oldest

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dwelling in the borough of Morecambe and And was built in 1598. So from

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And was built in 1598. So from the Black Bull in Saidpur to the Royal in Hetian, perhaps via a Royal in Hetian, perhaps via a cheeky pint of Wainwright in. In The Albion in Arnside, looking across to the Lakeland fells or across to the Lakeland fells or even engaging in a West End wobble in the heart of Morecambe. Usually in the heart of Morecambe. Usually starting at the exchange. Of course, possibly popping into the Constitutional Club and also finding its way to the newly opened Prince Albert on Albert Road, which has a fantastic cellar that you wouldn't guess about from the outside. So we're spoilt for choice. And in fact, I invite any of the hon. Members here to come on a little pub crawl with me. I still maintain I have the most beautiful constituency in the country, and you'll get to see every corner of it. If you visit our pubs. I'll

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happily give way. I just wonder, on the many visits she's made to her fantastic visits she's made to her fantastic local pubs, whether she's actually enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire. Ale. enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire. Ale. And indeed, whether the excellent Saltaire Blonde brewed in the Saltaire Blonde brewed in the brewery in my constituency, named after the fantastic World Heritage Site, the village of Saltaire. Whether that, as it's distributed nationwide, has found it into any

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of her local heritage pubs. I thank the honourable. Lady for her intervention. I

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Lady for her intervention. I haven't tried the ale she mentions, and I do wonder whether those of us on the correct side of the Pennines on the correct side of the Pennines would welcome a Yorkshire drink or not, but I'm sure it is in, of not, but I'm sure it is in, of course, delicious and pubs are vital. Community assets, whether in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Westmorland, and British life often happens over a pint, maybe a bag of scampi, fries or even better, a packet of Lancashire crisps.

And my very tenuous claim to fame is that Wainwright Beer is named after my great great uncle, who was a fellow walker and writer, Alfred Wainwright, and he did enjoy a pint at the end of a walk, although I have to say his mother, who was a very strict teetotaller, would be turning in her grave at the idea of her son having a beer named after him. And I've spoken before in this place about the need to have spaces in our community where people can drop by, make them see a mate run into people they know, or even make new friends.

And as much as I love
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Lizzi Collinge Portrait Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
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the great coffee shops in my constituency, like the Salty Bean, or maybe something a bit more traditional like Lewes, which has many heritage features, I say you can't beat a swift half at the can't beat a swift half at the dispensary at the end of a long week. And it's not just about community. But I will come back to community. But I will come back to that. It's also about the conserving the important architectural and cultural architectural and cultural buildings like the Tivoli Bar in Morecambe, which was named for the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen. It closed a few years ago now, but I remember the inside of it being absolutely stunning. The Tivoli and also the Queen's Hotel in Morecambe could be fantastic assets to our town and be an example of heritage buildings being preserved and put to good use, but instead they lie neglected. Now the Tivoli is owned by Sam Smith's Brewery and despite Morgan and I trying to get them and other absent landlords to engage on how we get more buildings open and working again, we didn't unfortunately get any engagement from the brewery when we wrote to them back in February. Now the

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Queen's. I'll happily give way. Is an important point about pubs that are long left derelict in my constituency of Halesowen. The old Queen's Head, right in the in the town centre, had been derelict for a while, but there's an excellent a while, but there's an excellent community group called Stepping Out, which supports young disabled people to get out and around the people to get out and around the town. And whilst it's not a heritage pub, the fact that it's now being repurposed to be a community centre I think is a is a fantastic use of a venue that otherwise will go to waste. She has got such examples in her own

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constituency. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman. He's, of course, put me on the spot He's, of course, put me on the spot and I cannot remember a single example now, although I know there are everywhere. But the point he makes, the point he makes about reuse of buildings is actually really important. And it will come really important. And it will come back to that later. Because whilst back to that later. Because whilst I think where we can keep pubs as pubs times change, things change. And actually in preserving those buildings for the use of the community, whether that's pub or not, is really important. And I would thank the group in his constituency for doing that. So the Queen's Hotel in Morecambe recently changed hands, so I really want to wait and see what happens with that. But it has been a long time that it's been sat neglected and this has a huge impact on how people feel about their town, and also on the businesses and landlords who make a huge effort to keep their buildings in really good condition. It's not fair that they should have to be next to these eyesores. And I just want to take a moment. Madam Deputy Speaker, to talk about the business community across Morecambe and Lunesdale, particularly Morecambe, bid for their work in the town. I meet local businesses every week and without doubt they are a key part of what makes a community thrive. We have loads, loads of local businesses who are absolutely wedded to the community part of it and who do a lot to support it. For example, I recently met with Vicky Edwards, who is a breast cancer survivor, and she's raising money for Cancer Care, a fantastic local charity that supports families affected by cancer. Now, Vicky was supported in her campaign by 14 local pubs. Every venue had a collection box and leaflets on Know Your Normal, which is a Breast Cancer Now campaign to help people detect suspected breast and chest cancers earlier. And many of these pubs also ran their own fundraising events for cancer care. So I want to recognise the Morecambe pubs that supported Vicky there, the Pier Hotel, Soul Bowl, Palatine Bull Hotel, Fisherman's Square, The Chief Hotel, The Royal Bar and Shaker, The Crown Hotel, Harry's Bar, The York, Oh, Nellie's Brittle Star Wine Bar, the Pestle and Mortar and the Hurley Flyer. And I think actually, there might have been even more pubs that helped out. But that's a list that was in my local newspaper, so I'm sticking to it. They, as always, showed the best of British businesses. I also want to talk about the staff that work in these pubs. In heritage pubs, often very narrow staircases, very low levelled cellars. I've worked in many a pub and actually I met my husband when he was running the Britannia in Lancaster and a Victorian pub that is now a block of flats. Stafford pubs work very hard, often anti-social hours, and have to sometimes deal with some interesting customers, which I. Which is why I'm very proud that they now have much better employment protection through our Employment Rights Act and particularly the improved sick pay situation. And of course, the increase to the minimum wage. I spent many years Madam Deputy Speaker working on the minimum wage and and it's an absolutely essential part of making sure that all the people who work hard for a living are rewarded for that. So I remember the long hours, the hard work, the occasionally tricky customer, the glass, the glass washer breaking, of course, on the busiest day of the week or the beer delivery being late. But I remember the joy as well, not only meeting my husband, of course, but the wider friendships we built. The flatmates of the pub, Steffi, Jay, Jade and Chris. Those late night chats definitely not lock ins. We never did that. I still occasionally pop over to Lancaster and drop into the Gregson Centre. Originally built in 1889 for the community. I worked there twice in 20 years later, I still see regulars that I used to serve. In fact, one of the regulars, toddler sons who I swear should still be three years old, was actually recently on University Challenge, and I'm sure he's very proud of her son for that. That work history is very handy when you're visiting local pubs in your constituency. They set you up with a pint glass, a real ale pump and a glint in their eye because they're clearly expecting the local MP to make a right, frothy mess of that pint. I particularly remember a visit before the election to the Royal in Bolton, Le Sands, with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey. And I have to say, I do pour a better pint than the hon. Lady and a proper northern pike with a creamy head. None of this southern nonsense with no sprinkler taps on. I'm not having that. It's just absolutely wrong. Turning to the provisions in today's bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the bill obviously has a good intent, and I share the hon. Gentleman's desire to protect our heritage pubs and our heritage buildings. I mentioned the Tivoli and Morecambe and that Victorian pub where I met my husband now flats, and they're just two examples. I do have some concerns about the aspects of the bill. I mean, I, I don't want to create more bureaucracy in the planning system. I think one of the great achievements of this government will be having a planning system that works to protect our assets, but actually isn't overly complicated and over expensive. Now, 70% of planning authorities in England already have heritage lists, and 11,000 of the listed buildings are pubs or inns, so the pubs are already afforded strong protections through the

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planning system. I will happily give honourable. Gentleman at the local heritage listing. Does she recognise that listing. Does she recognise that that does not protect the interior of pubs? It doesn't stop anyone from going into any of those pubs from going into any of those pubs tomorrow ripping out the historic beams, the fittings, anything that

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is not physically part of the bricks and mortar of the building, more or less. I'm the hon. Gentleman for his

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I'm the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and that is very interesting. Important point actually. And I think I mentioned later in my speech the importance of when pubs are renovated or any buildings renovated, we retain those additional features. So, you know, I, I, I give that he makes a very important point there. But as he knows, proposals to demolish or change the use of pub already require a planning application. They're deliberately excluded from permitting relevant political development rights. And that does allow local authorities, through the planning committee, to consider the full impact of the proposals. They do have the powers to issue an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. I appreciate that in the hon. Gentleman's case and the crooked House, that was far too late. And and I really do share the despair he must have felt at that happening. We've talked about the heritage lists, pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection, of course, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension which affect the listed buildings, character, appearance and failure. Of course, to obtain listed building consent is an offence and I just want to say that I thoroughly support local authorities that fully enforce all planning consents and all building regulations. There was actually a pub in the area that I was a county councillor in. It was changed into flats, but frankly the developer had no respect for the planning process, no respect for local people consistently and fragrantly breached the planning consent he had been given and I would support much stronger powers to actually

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prevent people like that being able to develop in the future. Why don't we give way? Give way?

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I had a. Similar planning challenge in my constituency where a a supporting constituency where a a supporting wall has been built above a housing development and has collapsed, and development and has collapsed, and residents in that area in a new build development have spent two years now waiting for that wall to years now waiting for that wall to be fixed without any access to their properties, without any action by the development to the developer to rectify that situation. I think there are real challenges with rogue developers, not just in the crooked House case, but across the board. Is there anything else that the government could be doing

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to challenge these kind of situations? With her experience of planning? I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He's absolutely his intervention. He's absolutely right, and his case actually reminds me of a visit I did just a couple of weeks ago to a block of couple of weeks ago to a block of flats in Arnside. Their balconies have been deemed unsafe and the developer is. And the property developer is. And the property management company are both trying to charge a huge amount of money to residents because they haven't created a proper sinking fund and also dragging their feet on everyday maintenance as well as safety issues. So I think there is more we could do. I know we are bringing in great reforms to things like leasehold and other matters, and I think the principle is that if you are responsible for something, you should take responsibility and you should actually fix the mess you've made. So I'd absolutely support him in that. So there are also measures, of course, for communities to take through the assets of community values, which was introduced by the government in 2011, and local authorities are responsible for ensuring that Assets of Community Value scheme is run in accordance with that legislation. And I do think rather than adding to the planning regime, it's more important to make sure that we're supporting pubs through everyday policy so they can thrive and ask any owner and they can tell you about the rising operating costs, particularly energy and changing alcohol consumption habits, which do make it harder to make a profit. And, you know, we know that the government is taking action on this as a member of the Energy Security and Net Zero Select Committee. We speak often about business energy costs, and I'd like to flag the importance of the Clean Energy 2030 mission to the survival of pubs and other businesses. You know, when we go in a pub, we want it to be warm. We want it to be nice. That does mean that they have very high energy costs. And so the work we are doing as a government to decouple the price of electricity from the price of gas, which is set internationally and damaged, of course, by international events, is really, really important. And now the more specifically to pubs, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 will ban the use of upwards only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies. These clauses have meant that rents can only ever stay the same or rise, regardless of market conditions. Now, pubs that are signed up to the Pub Code do already receive this protection, but the ban will mean that this protection will be extended to heritage pubs. Further, increasing support for these really important institutions. I was also really pleased to see the government announced the 20% discount rate for business rates discount for pubs, clubs and entertainment venues which have helped to give them some breathing space. I would point out that there are other businesses that are very similar to pubs, like the Avanti restaurant that I visited in Kirkby Lonsdale, and whose owner very kindly brought together a group of local business people for my for me to speak with. And they were very much like to see parity on this tax relief. I'd also encourage pubs, of course, to check that they're eligible for the £61 million Community Right to Buy fund the government has rolled out. So that's funding for people in deprived areas to take over community assets. That's my hon. Friend was talking about before. So rather than relying on planning protection, which can be slow, these measures give community agency over a place and the opportunity to operate those assets successfully. There's also the pub in the hub programme, which helps pubs in rural areas like mine diversify, and that's backed by £3 million of government funding. Community ownership and engagement is really important to this government and it's strengthened this further through those provisions of the English Devolution Community Empowerment Act 2026. That's going to introduce a new community right to buy and give communities real power of ownership. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase and 12 months to raise funding, which is a significant improvement. Local communities should determine which spaces and places are most important to them, and we know a growing number of local residents across the country are stepping into that gap and saving those heritage assets. There's some brilliant groups like that in Morecambe and Lunesdale, so I really I just want to give a specific mention to the Save Our Son campaign in dent. Dent is a beautiful village nestled in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, which means I have three planning authorities in my constituency, so that's always fun. But to Save our Son campaign in dent has pulled together the community to save the son in. And I just want to put my on record, my thanks and Save Our Son group. They have done an absolutely fantastic job and I was pleased recently to hear they

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progressed a little further. Other place. I'll happily give. Way. Are particularly pleased to hear

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Are particularly pleased to hear that she's backing saving a pub in that she's backing saving a pub in Beautiful dent. Obviously the Yorkshire The Dales Way links parts Yorkshire The Dales Way links parts of my constituency through to hers and I think sometimes we forget that these heritage pubs not only that these heritage pubs not only are part of the local community, but they also provide a fantastic resting place for those who are visitors to our areas, enjoying walking in our beautiful countryside. One such pub with a very long heritage tradition is Dick Hudson's in Bingley, which also lies on the edge of a popular walking route. So does she agree that these pubs that we want to save them not only for local

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communities, but for all those who come and visit our areas to enjoy them? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. And actually, dent is a prime example of places where prime example of places where visitors come. You know, I have so many fantastic places for visitors, whether that's the front at Morecambe, which of course is Morecambe, which of course is getting Eden Project, Morecambe Beautiful Arnside. As I mentioned before, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, before, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, the whole of the Yorkshire Dales National Park and you know, the the businesses that serve our communities all year round also serve visitors. And I think our a fantastic, fantastic spokespeople for our area showing the quality of our local produce as well, which is really important. So on the provisions of the statutory Register proposed in the bill, I'd, I'd, I'd really want to know that it would create some meaningful protection and not add another layer of bureaucracy. You know, I want I want pubs to be live assets as well. I, I think I talked earlier about the fact that buildings will change over time. Our heritage, our communities are not static things. And from an architectural and heritage point of view, what's really important is their character is not lost. If something's sitting there in its original state, but that original state is mouldering, that's not actually a good thing. So preserving those features is really important and that any upgrades or renovations are done sympathetically and in keeping. I recently visited the Royal Oak in Burton in my constituency, and they've done a fantastic renovation, which very sympathetic to the original original building. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want us to keep our pubs open and running, preserve these historical buildings for future generations and where owners choose to leave it possible

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that they have new life. Thank you. Yeah. Markus Campbell-Savours thank

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Markus Campbell-Savours thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I begin by congratulating the hon. Member, by congratulating the hon. Member, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, on bringing forward the Heritage Public Houses Bill. I bow to his superior knowledge on pubs, both heritage and modern, and don't doubt how thorough his research methods have been. This is an issue of enormous importance, particularly for rural constituencies such as Penrith and
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Markus Campbell-Savours Portrait Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)
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Solway, where the village pub is often much more than simply business. The bill would establish business. The bill would establish local authority registers of heritage public houses, introduce restrictions on their sale and restrictions on their sale and create additional protections within the planning system. In many of our villages, the pub sits at of our villages, the pub sits at the heart of community life. It's where neighbours meet, where local groups gather, where funds are raised for worthy causes, and where raised for worthy causes, and where people maintain the social bonds that hold communities together. The loss of a village pub can be devastating. It can fundamentally change the character of an area and leave a void that is never truly filled. I therefore understand entirely the motivation behind this bill and the desire to ensure that valued pubs are not unnecessarily lost. However, I wish to focus my remarks on those provisions of the Bill that contain similar principles to the Asset of Community Value Framework, particularly the restrictions on sale and opportunities for community acquisition. As I understand it, under the bill, owners of a registered heritage public house could be subject to a process including a full moratorium period of up to 12 months before a sale can proceed. In certain circumstances. The question I have is a practical one what happens when a community wishes to buy a pub, has local support, has a business plan, but needs time and financial support to complete the

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purchase. The success of these. Please gentlemen, for the species making it so. It's a species making it so. It's a reasonable question and the answer is that in the bill it's exactly the same procedure and timelines as the government introduced for community value in the English community value in the English Devolution Act. So community groups will have eight weeks to register an expression of interest and then an expression of interest and then up to 18 months to get that bid together to complete the negotiations. And as I said, if they're not able to agree the price because of an unreasonable demand from the seller, then just as with assets of community value, the independent valuer can set the

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price. For the intervention. And my my criticisms of the bill may go beyond this bill and into some of the existing provisions. The success of these protections will success of these protections will ultimately depend not only on the rights Parliament creates, but on whether communities can whether communities can realistically exercise them. That brings me to a case in my constituency. An honourable, hon. constituency. An honourable, hon. Members may be relieved to hear it's the only pub I will mention in this speech. In the village of Ireby, local residents have spent years attempting to secure the future of Emily's Black Lion, the last remaining pub serving a rural area around 15,000 hectares. With a population of only a few hundred. The importance of the Black Lion cannot be overstated. Public transport has been withdrawn from the village. There are few remaining public amenities. The pub supports community events, fundraising for local institutions and the neighbouring community owned Globe Hall. For many residents, it's the principal

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social and community hub. Some hon. Friend, Give. Way please. Is giving an excellent speech.

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Is giving an excellent speech. I'm reflecting on my experience in Halesowen, which is a. It's a built up area rather than a residential up area rather than a residential area. But we have real reductions in community spaces through years of. Unfortunately, conservative of. Unfortunately, conservative cuts to local government. And that means pubs as well as libraries and other community spaces have become increasingly important. Does he agree with me that that makes the continuation of pubs even more

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vital than it would have been in the past. I welcome the intervention and I would agree. I think we can would agree. I think we can sometimes underestimate the similarities between rural areas and inner cities, where community and inner cities, where community spaces are limited. I followed the campaign of the of Emily's Black Lion for a number of years, including during my time as a parliamentary candidate when I had parliamentary candidate when I had the opportunity to visit the Black Lion and meet members of the community group. What struck me then, and continues to impress me today, is that this was never simply a campaign to save a pub. It was a campaign to sustain a community. Local residents spoke of ambitions to develop the pub further as a cafe, a drop in facility and community hub serving local residents throughout the day. That ambition has only become more important as other services have been lost. During the course of this campaign. I have also lost its bus service in a city. Losing a pub may mean walking to the next one, although I welcome what my colleague just said. In a village such as Ireby, losing the last pub can mean losing one of the last places where people regularly come together. When the future of the pub was threatened, local people did exactly what governments of all colours have encouraged communities to do. They organised. They established a community benefit society. They commissioned surveys and valuations. They prepared a business plan. They achieved the community share standard. They launched a community share offer and raised more than £100,000 from around 200 investors, with further pledges available and on a modest on a modest estimate, the core volunteers contributed more than 1300 hours of unpaid work to the project, including more than 800 hours from one individual alone. Think about that for a moment. More than 1300 volunteer hours from local people who simply wanted to keep their pub alive. Most importantly, they did all of this in good faith. They pursued the route laid before them through the Community Ownership Fund. They incurred costs, undertook surveys, assembled evidence and met every requirement asked of them. Then, just as they were preparing to submit what they believed was a completed application, the general election was called. The process was interrupted and subsequently the funding scheme was closed. The government has since confirmed the Community Ownership Fund is closed and there will be no further application rounds. This was devastating for the campaign in Ayabe. Now where are we? I'm not here to referee a dispute between the owner and the community group, nor am I here to put a value on the pub. Those are matters for negotiation between the parties involved. However, the position in Ayabe illustrates a wider policy question. The community group believes a purchase remains achievable with sufficient support. The owner has expressed concerns about the effect of restrictions and uncertainty on the future marketability of the property. The argument advanced by the owner in Ayabe is that restrictions intended to support community ownership may, in some circumstances, discourage other purchasers from coming forward. Purchasers who may wish to run a pub and secure the future of the asset. Members may or may not agree with that assessment. My point is that the argument exists. Some may argue that is irrational, but potential buyers often aren't rational. It is an argument that becomes more significant when communities do not have access to the funding required to complete an acquisition. The most effective response is not necessarily fewer protections. It may be better funding, better access to finance, and a clearer pathway from community interest to community ownership. This challenge goes beyond this bill. Parliament has recently strengthened community acquisition rights through the new Community Right to buy provisions contained within the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. Those reforms extend the moratorium period and create stronger opportunities for communities to acquire valued local assets. I welcome the ambition behind those reforms. They are motivated by many of the same objectives that underpin the bill before us today. However, I am interested in how Ministers see those rights operating in practice, where communities face significant difficulties accessing capital.

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That concern. Please. I'm grateful to my friend for

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I'm grateful to my friend for allowing me to intervene. He will have heard my speech earlier on have heard my speech earlier on where I talked about the premier electric theatre and the point that my hon. Friend is making at my hon. Friend is making at resonate with me in relation to that project, where the community that project, where the community need to raise £21,000 just to do a feasibility study in an area where there isn't a lot of money within the population. So does he join me in calling or asking the government to look at that situation, to see whether there's anything that can be done to help empower communities such as mine in Somercotes, where there isn't a lot of money swilling around within the population.

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I thank my hon. Friend for the intervention. I would agree, and I think the message, hopefully, is there for the government. If there are any intentions to open any funds, to recognise that sometimes funds, to recognise that sometimes we need seed money to develop business cases and feasibility studies. It's an important part of studies. It's an important part of that process. The concerns I've raised have also been highlighted raised have also been highlighted by Camra, which has welcomed stronger community acquisition rights, while warning that their effectiveness is reduced in the absence of replacement funding. Following the closure of the Community Ownership Fund, the experience of the people of Ioby demonstrates precisely that point. The obstacle they have encountered is not a lack of commitment, a lack of organisation or a lack of local support, or even a lack of a mechanism by which to do it. The obstacle has been uncertainty around access to capital. If Parliament is prepared to introduce a 12 month moratorium on the sale of heritage public houses, Parliament should also consider how communities are expected to use that opportunity in practice. Time alone does not buy a pub. A right to buy does not buy a pub financing buys a pub. I therefore ask Ministers to look again at support for community acquisition of pubs and other vital rural assets. As the government continues the implementation of the Community Right to Buy, how does it intend to ensure that communities have access to the finance required to exercise those new rights for isolated rural? Please.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I just draw his attention to and I just draw his attention to what has been done in the village of dent in my constituency, where of dent in my constituency, where the community has come together with a community shares approach. I think the point he's making about think the point he's making about the scale of finance needed to buy community assets is really important, and I would like to see the government supporting more, but the government supporting more, but there's been some really innovative models across the country, and I

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would welcome his comments on those. And thank you for the intervention. As I've already commented, the the community and I commented, the the community and I did a community share offer had been through that process. I think having gone through that process, it made it all the more disappointing that they were unable to access any additional money. But they keep fighting on and will keep fighting on, I believe, until they've secured, until they've secured what they need. For isolated rural communities. These pubs are not luxuries, they're infrastructure. At a time when bus services are disappearing in rural areas, village amenities continue to decline and opportunities for social interaction are becoming increasingly limited. The local pub can be among the last remaining public spaces that bind the community together. The people of Iowa have done everything that could reasonably have been expected of them. They organised, they volunteered, they raised the money. They built a plan. They secured community support. So my question to the Minister at the end of my boring speech, if it's not been clear what comes next, because if we're serious about helping communities to save heritage pubs or any pub, we cannot simply give them more time. We should also ensure that they have a realistic opportunity and funding to succeed. Thank you.

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Speaker Point of order Adam Jogee is it to do with this debate

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right now? Yes. Adam Jogee point of order, Madam Speaker. The member in the pink Speaker. The member in the pink shirt with a constituency in Surrey, and I say that consciously intervened on my speech earlier on intervened on my speech earlier on today, which led me to mention his constituency in my remarks. Now, Madam Speaker, the member must correct the record. He said. I correct the record. He said. I mentioned his constituency more than my own, which is, of course, nonsense and also untrue. I've just checked Hansard and my notes. I made 20 references to Newcastle-under-Lyme, 14 specific references to areas in Staffordshire, six references to individual areas in Newcastle and six references to his constituency. How can the hon. Member correct the record and ensure an apology is given to me and my constituents?

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Sir George, I'm not sure that is a good use of a point of order, but you have indeed corrected the you have indeed corrected the record yourself. We will not continue this debate in the overall debate, sir. Mr. job, no need for a debate, sir. Mr. job, no need for a point of order, Mr. Yogi. You have indeed corrected the record.

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indeed corrected the record. Matt Turmaine thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's an honour to follow the Member for Penrith to follow the Member for Penrith and Solway in this important debate into heritage pubs. Watford and the surrounding area has a fine history of pubs and brewing. Indeed, the town has been associated with the production of beer sold widely in the town's hostelries for many years. Benskins was the pre-eminent brewery in Watford and Hertfordshire's biggest brewer until its acquisition by HP in 1957, and there were many tied houses.

Many bore Benskins name well into the 1990s. In fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, the part of Watford in which I reside has a close association with the Benskins brewery in terms of housing provision for workers and managers at the brewers facilities for many years. Watford Football Club, the town's professional team, were known as the Brewers and Benskins Brewery sponsored the purchase of the club's Vicarage Road ground, where they have played ever since, earning the nickname the Brewers.

It was subsequently changed to the
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Adam Jogee Portrait Points of Order Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
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accommodated at the nearby rebranded Oddfellows, formerly rebranded Oddfellows, formerly Oddfellows Arms. Madam Deputy Speaker, In the interests of research and the pursuit of knowledge, I have indeed attended both of these venues and can report that they present a convivial, if tightly packed venue and do the town proud as examples of heritage pubs. Other pubs further away pubs. Other pubs further away accommodate a mixed fan base and this generally works well, although the M1 derby with local rivals which cannot be named in here and I see that my hon.

Friend is no longer present in her place, who might testify to this can sometimes present a challenge. Returning to Benskins, the old offices, a three storey red brick house in the Georgian neoclassical style, fronted the brewery itself. It was the former home of the Dyson family, built around 1775, and the extensions were added to the side. In 1807. The house was bought in 1867 by Joseph Benskin, and the whole site continued to operate as their brewery until it was acquired by.

Acquired by IND Coope in 1957. As I mentioned earlier, brewing continued in Watford until 1972, with the iconic chimney being demolished in 1977, the year, of course, of our late Queen's Jubilee. As a child, I spent that day on a balcony in the borders. Perhaps ironically, although not deliberately being sick as indeed, of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, any novice attendee of our national
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Matt Turmaine Portrait Matt Turmaine MP (Watford, Labour)
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Holywell had the highwayman, now Turpin Court, and in Courtaulds Turpin Court, and in Courtaulds Drive was the beaver sadly not reintroduced there. Madam Deputy Speaker, I must relay an anecdote Speaker, I must relay an anecdote where I met the former member for West Bromwich East in one of these heritage pubs, and was much heritage pubs, and was much impressed at the speed with which he was able to consume a pint of the dark brew of the Irish Isle, the dark brew of the Irish Isle, while within the Badger. Checking through the Book of Watford, compiled and edited by local historian Bob Nunn in 1987, it lists 90 Watford pubs that existed since 1900, many now long gone, and he deduces sorry, and he dedicates much of the tome to them. The distinctive Aussie village has retained two pubs in the neat rows of Victorian terraces the Rifle Volunteer and the Villiers Arms nearby. But sadly, the Heydon Arms are a bit more out of the way. Was lost and the Prince of Wales closed in 1955. Watford's pubs are and remain a social hub. The horns at the top of the town is famous for and still offers live music. I've enjoyed the music there many times, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it would be inappropriate of me, not to mention a former trade union mentor of mine, Mr. Paul Evans, who I was lucky enough to witness playing at the venue with his band while I nervously awaited a very different impending recall for the birth of my second child. There are many countryside pubs within a short drive or walk of Watford, and where in some instances there remains a bus service to get you there and back as well. The Clarendon Arms at Chandlers Cross was a regular pit stop for walkers and the cart and horses at Common Wood, Buck's Hill, the terminus for many years of London Country's double deckers on the A308, a route where the conductor would see the driver reverse back to the stop to lay over before the return journey to Watford. I can testify, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the delights of the Clarendon Arms, my partner and I freshly arrived in Hertfordshire's finest town of Watford, strode our way through Whippendell Woods to the said hostelry and partook of its thirst quenching delights. Perhaps less impressively, the return path was far from direct, and the sun was bidding a provocative farewell as we made our way through the staggering snicker of the woods back vaguely in the right direction, it was more reminiscent of An American Werewolf in London than the Railway Children. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Sir Robert Peel has been a popular pub name in Watford and its own right up until the 2006 Camra advises. The explanation of its name can be found in its former use as the town's police station. The Wheatsheaf doesn't appear to have been a particularly fortunate name for the pub's locally. The one in Watford at Bushey Arches became a car showroom in a few miles out of the town and, still with a bus service, saw its pub of the same name close and there was also a Wheatsheaf in Bovingdon High Street. Two now closed. And it's important, of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, in this debate to namecheck a couple of the constituent hostelries. And to that end, I want to mention the one crown in Watford, which is believed to have been one of the oldest pubs in 1756. Jeremiah Friend is listed as the landlord of venue, which suggests that that is the fact. It is clearly challenging to be able to identify all of these examples. But I would also mention the Swan has apparently got 17th

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century heritage as well as it is known now O'Neill's. But to most of us the flag. Friend.

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Friend. way. He mentions a name change of a pub from a fantastic previous name pub from a fantastic previous name to O'Neill's. Is he concerned about not just the heritage of our pubs, but the heritage of the names of but the heritage of the names of the pubs, those fantastic names that have lasted years and years and years should be continued. We shouldn't be rebranding them with these random generic chains.

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I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Yes, the legacy of names of pubs is is is is is names of pubs is is is is is something that we should absolutely celebrate. And it is sometimes disappointing to see the generic disappointing to see the generic nature of venues in high streets. We can but hope that the interiors of these pubs continue to be sites of vivid and lively memory which which can live on, perhaps beyond which can live on, perhaps beyond the name of some of them. So sorry. I mentioned O'Neill's was formerly known as The Flag. It was. It was originally a hotel to service the Watford Junction station, and I must confess, to have occasionally made use of its facilities, including once provided much needed sustenance to a delegation from a previous abode of mine in Hammersmith and Fulham. They, too, were delighted to avail themselves of its excellent food and drink. The Railway Arms in Bushey, which had closely associated with the railway. I'm so sorry.

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Does the member continue? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Railway Arms in Bushey, which The Railway Arms in Bushey, which has a close association with the railway and those commuters who use it, once, provided me with an it, once, provided me with an opportunity to be sounded out about electoral issues in the run up to the 2015 general election in which the 2015 general election in which I stood an election, Madam Deputy Speaker, in which I was able to relegate the Liberal Democrat mayor relegate the Liberal Democrat mayor of Watford to third place as Labour began its ascent back up the polls and a task, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I fully intend to better at the next one. The moon under the water in the high Street was a particular peculiarity as a heritage public house, in that it was opened in 1995, but as an awareness of its history that far transcends expectations. Many informative items decorate the pub, revealing the history of the town. Of course, that pub is run by Wetherspoons and is named after George Orwell's fantasy pub. Wetherspoons website reveals that in 1536, Richard Morison, the future owner of the Canterbury estate, returned to England from his studies in Italy to work for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Thomas Cromwell. Richard was granted the Manor of Cashio in 1546 and Morrison's wife, Bridget, founded the Bedford Almshouses in 1580 to house poor women from Watford, Langley and Cheney's. They remain standing to this day and I was able to enjoy hospitality at them on one of my visits. Their heritage comes in many forms, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it would be negligent of me, not to mention the town's famous nightclub that closed a couple of years ago. Prison, it was called. The club has known many forms and indeed names. Rather like a witch doctor who one grew up with. It dates residents of the town to an era, and for me it was known as Paradise Lost. Similarly, I was able to attend a beer festival in Saint John's Church, which was an unlikely setting for the for the consumption of, of, of, of fine ales and very much enjoyable. Many patrons, Madam Deputy Speaker, would emerge from that nightclub in the early hours of the morning, blinking in the artificial lamppost light, seeking either a kebab or a cab, an act that soundly has passed into history. Part of that heritage heritage is being built today, and as other members have referenced, it's important to remember that heritage is built as we as we pass on the Mad Squirrel, where. I was delighted to take a delegation of Sp-d members from our twin town of Mainz in Germany was a particular favourite and I will close. Madam Deputy Speaker, in reflecting that last Saturday I was in the Escort Tavern in Watford, which is now run by Stephen and Mel, formerly of the Southern Cross, to drown my sorrows. Following Watford FCDO lamentable defeat. The refurbishment has been amazing and I wish them every success with with it in one of the town's long established pubs. And that venue too, was the site of a political interrogation within which I was quizzed regarding which Miliband I had supported in the Labour Party leadership election of 2010, and so began a trajectory that delivered my election to this place. Give way, I will happily give way.

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Will he give the House an answer to which event he supported? I thank my hon. Friend for the

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I thank my hon. Friend for the intervention, and of course, I will be happy to give him an answer. The right one. Figures I have seen show right one. Figures I have seen show that in 2015 there were over 55,000 pubs, but by 2024 it was a pubs, but by 2024 it was a staggering 10,000 lower. A sobering thought and a reminder to us all that pub closures did not begin in 2024. Pubs are the focal point for a community public houses serving the public, and I am pleased that the government has recognised their loss over many years and that needs

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to be tackled and addressed. Sarah Hall Peter.

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Sarah Hall Peter. When people think about pubs, they often. Think first about. Beer they often. Think first about. Beer and while great beer certainly matters, pubs have always been about much more than what is poured about much more than what is poured into a glass. They are meeting places, employers, community hubs, places, employers, community hubs, cultural institutions and, in many cases, living pieces of local history. As we've heard a lot about today in Warrington South, we are fortunate to have a rich pub culture, a growing independent hospitality sector and local breweries that continue a tradition stretching back generations from Stockton Heath to Grappenhall, from Latchford to Appleton and across the wider constituency, pubs remain places where friendships are formed.

 Local fundraising takes place, sports teams celebrate victories, families gather for meals and communities come together in times of joy and challenge. But Madam Deputy Speaker, because pubs matter,
13:05
Sarah Hall Portrait Sarah Hall MP (Warrington South, Labour )
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we have a responsibility to approach legislation affecting them with care, precision and a proper with care, precision and a proper understanding of the law that already exists. The question before the House is not whether historic the House is not whether historic pubs deserve protection. Of course they do. The question is whether the measures proposed in this Bill the measures proposed in this Bill are necessary, proportionate and effective. Alongside the protections already available and protections already available and whether they will genuinely help pubs survive as living businesses, rather than simply preserving bricks and mortar. That distinction is particularly important. Bless you to Warrington South. Warrington has a remarkable brewing history. For generations, Greenall's was one of the names most closely associated with our town, connecting brewing, brewing with local employment industry and the network of public houses through which beer reached our communities. Many local people also remember the famous Tetley Walker Brewery on

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Dallam Lane. I will she. Talks about the local network connecting different breweries. I connecting different breweries. I think Warrington might be very similar to the Black Country, and that canals were historically used fantastically to pass those barrels of ale from brewery to pub. Does she have any famous canals in her constituency and are they still

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constituency and are they still used for this important case? Thank you for the question. We

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Thank you for the question. We do indeed. We have the Sankey Canal, which is one of the, if not the first canal. It's very famous in this country and we have the Manchester Ship Canal, which I'm sure everybody here. Madam Deputy Speaker has heard about. So. So for decades this brewery has helped define the character and economy of Warrington. The distinctive smell of hops became part of daily life for generations of residents, and the brewery was an important local employer. Although that era is past, brewing remains very much alive in our town. One example is 40s Brewery, based in Latchford, founded by John Wilkinson, who previously worked at the historic Tetley Walker Brewery. 40s has developed from a small operation starting in a garage into an established independent brewery, producing cask craft, bottled and canned beers. And it's exceptional. So I've heard that continued continuity matters. It demonstrates that heritage need not be frozen in time. It can be carried forward by people who possess the skills, knowledge and determination to adapt to an old industry, to new circumstances. Local breweries do far more than produce beer. They support employment. They buy goods and services. They supply pubs, attract visitors and strengthen Warrington's identity. When residents choose a locally brewed pint, more of that spending can remain within the local economy. Independent breweries, independent and independent pubs form part of a wider network of businesses that support one another. Across Warrington, Camra recognises venues that champion quality beer and community spirit, including the lower Angel, the Tavern and Hop Emporium, among many others. These establishments remind us that pubs value is not measured solely by the age of the building. It's also measured by the landlord who knows the regulars by name, the community group that meets in the back room, the local team that celebrates the victory there, and the family that has gathered around the same table for decades. A historic building may retain architectural interest after it ceases to operate as a pub, but a historic pub that continues to serve its community combines architectural, cultural and social value, and our policies should recognise all three. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am concerned that debates about heritage can sometimes become too focussed on labels. We discuss whether a building is listed, whether it appears on a register or whether it meets a particular statutory definition. Those questions matter because legal protection often depends on them. But a community's attachment to a pub does not begin on the day a local authority adds it to a list. Nor does a pub's cultural significance disappear because it falls just outside a definition drawn up in Westminster. Warrington has some wonderful examples of historic public houses. The Barley Mow, which are rich with origins dating back to 1561, is a remarkable timber framed building whose eight where the ancient beams and historic panelling connect us with earlier generations. The Ferry Tavern, first licensed in 1762, occupies a distinctive setting between the Mersey and the Sankey and alongside the Trans Pennine Trail. And there are many, many, many more too many to mention. So these are not simply commercial premises, they are part of the character and story of our area. And once a historic building has been demolished, no subsequent register can bring it back. And that's why early identification, good information, and effective enforcement and timely decisions are so important. However, the lesson should not simply be that every pub requires another statutory designation. It should be that local authorities need the knowledge, the resources and the confidence to use the powers they already possess and that communities need meaningful opportunities to influence decisions before it's too late. Pubs are already protected by the planning system. Proposals to demolish a pub or change its use require a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights, so an owner cannot simply assume that a pub could be demolished or converted without scrutiny. The local planning authority has an opportunity to consider the

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proposal, assess its impact and apply the relevant planning policies. Yes I will. She's continuing to make an

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She's continuing to make an excellent speech on the subject of planning systems and frameworks. Does she share my concern that Does she share my concern that despite the good intentions of this bill, the additional layers of bureaucracy that may be put on the bureaucracy that may be put on the owners of a pub, on the planning authorities on other purposes, might actually cause more friction

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might actually cause more friction in the system than than actually is intended. I absolutely do agree. I think this is about ensuring that the current legislation is more robust and is actually enforced, rather than adding extra layers on, as my hon. Friend said, absolutely so. So the current policies, they act, they already act as an important safeguard. So creating another legal requirement will not necessarily produce a better practical outcome. Local planning authorities already have powers to issue enforcement notices where there have been. There has been a breach of planning control, and non-compliance with an enforcement notice can result in an unlimited fine upon conviction, and that is a substantial sanction. The challenge is ensuring that breaches are identified, investigated and dealt with promptly. There is an important difference between a lack of legal power and a failure to use an existing power effectively. Local planning authorities can also create local lists of buildings or historic architectural interests, including heritage pubs. Those non these Non-designated heritage assets receive consideration through the National Planning Policy Framework when relevant planning decisions are made. And that matters because heritage is not restricted to nationally famous landmarks. A pub can be central to the identity of a neighbourhood without meeting the criteria for a statutory listing. There is also a building preservation notice, where a local planning authority considers that a building of special architectural or historic interest is at risk of demolition or harmful alteration. It can serve a notice and apply for a building for the building to be considered for listing, and these are already meaningful tools. The practical question for Warrington South is whether our council has the information and the resources it already needs to identify vulnerable historic pubs and make effective use of these powers. Madam Deputy Speaker, the importance of a pub is often best understood by the people who use it. The Assets of Community Value Scheme, introduced through the Localism Act 2011, allows communities in England to nominate buildings or land that further the social, wellbeing or social interests of their community. The local authority considers whether the nomination meets the statutory definition and decides whether the asset should be listed, and this gives residents a formal way of saying that this place matters to us and its importance should be recognised. Residents are often best placed to explain why a particular pub matters. It might provide a meeting place for older people or host organisations, and all the other great things that have been identified before. But an asset of community value listing is not an absolute guarantee that a building will remain open. As a pub, the existing scheme provides a process for community involvement when a listed asset is put up for sale, but it does not generally compel the owner to sell to a

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community group or accept his offer. And that distinction matters anyway. Yes.

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Yes. She raises a good point about involving the community and assets of community value. And as we're of community value. And as we're talking about pubs and heritage pubs. Pubs absolutely have a value to the community. But if the community decides as a group that they want to use that for a different purpose, isn't the asset

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of community value a better for doing that than what being debated today? Absolutely. I'm also going to move on to the community Right to Buy, which is incredibly significant here as well. So the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 is intended to give communities the first opportunity to purchase that asset of community value. And as a labour and co-operative MP, this is incredibly I'm incredibly passionate about this, giving power to communities to run things that are important to their community and that they know best and how it would fit and be best served in their areas. Incredibly powerful, I think. And I would love to see more

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honourable. Lady for giving way, and I totally agree with her about the totally agree with her about the importance of communities being able to come and take over able to come and take over important buildings and community value, obviously, including heritage pubs. We're talking today, but we also have in the centre of but we also have in the centre of Bingley Bingley pool, which is really very important, the old swimming pool to local people. We have a Friends of Bingley Pool. have a Friends of Bingley Pool. They want to take it over as a community asset, but they're getting very little support from the reform led council in doing that. Does she agree with me that it needs supportive local government to help to implement these policies?

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Absolutely. And I am a very I'm a big advocate for communities, as I said, taking over things like I said, taking over things like community leisure centres and also, as is happening Warrington South community is are taking over sports community is are taking over sports pitches as well because they are better served to access the funding they need. They know what the demands are in the area and best place to just support and really invest in those, those areas. So I would encourage all local would encourage all local authorities to get behind it. It's an incredible, incredibly powerful provision. So this as as we've said, this could represent substantial change in the opportunities available to communities seeking to acquire the local pub. The purpose of this legislation should be made, should, should be to make it easier for residents to save a value pub, not leave them navigating an unnecessarily complicated set of rules. So for Warrington South, that means listening to the residents, the community groups, the publicans and the local businesses about what would

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generally genuinely help them. Yes. I thank the hon. Lady for giving

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I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. Obviously, she earlier spoke about the Ferry Tavern in her constituency. Again, another 18th constituency. Again, another 18th century pub like The crooked House was. Now that's not an asset of community value. Does she think that's because her residents don't that's because her residents don't care about the Ferry Tavern? Or is it a failure on the part, on the

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part of the council, or is it a gap in the system? Thank you. It's an incredibly valued pub, and I would welcome anyone to come along and see. It's quite a quite an unusual pub which is very much loved in in the community. Madam Deputy Speaker, if you want to understand why pubs and brewing matters to Warrington, we have to look beyond buildings and planning applications to the events that bring people together. And one example of that is Warrington Oktoberfest. Last week I sponsored a barrel at this year's event. Yes, and it was excellent. Many people know Oktoberfest as a chance to enjoy great beer, live music and time with friends. But Warrington Oktoberfest is much more than that. At its heart, it's a community led charity event that has brought people together for nearly three decades, while raising money for good causes locally and internationally. Held at the local Parr Hall, the festival began with a relatively relatively small gathering of real ale enthusiasts 30 years ago, and the idea came from Cliff Horton, a member of Warrington Rotary Club who was also a master brewer at a local brewery. Through the commitment of volunteers, that modest initiative grew into a major fixture in Warrington's calendar, offering a wide range of beers, ciders, entertainment and opportunities for people to come together. And since its inception, the festival has raised more than £350,000 for charity. Beneficiaries have

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included local local organisations such as Saint Rocco's Hospice. Yes.

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Yes. Can I join her in congratulating the organisers of that festival and the charitable contributions that they made? And I would also like to congratulate the organisers of the Halesowen Beer Cider and Gin Festival at Halesowen Cricket club Festival at Halesowen Cricket club and the fantastic work they've done to bring the community together in Halesowen to enjoy all those

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different drinks and also contribute to the community. Absolutely. And. I echo those comments. So our event has been supporting incredible charities in our town like Suffolk Coastal Hospice and Homelessness Charity room at the Inn, as well as a lot of

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international charitable projects. Yes. I just wish to put on the record

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I just wish to put on the record one of our fantastic local beer festivals. It's a camera. Bradford festivals. It's a camera. Bradford Beer Festival takes place in Saltaire Town Hall, and one of the particular things that I think is noteworthy is that they actually noteworthy is that they actually link up with the other local heritage pubs around Saltaire, so that they are part of the wider that they are part of the wider festival, not only celebrating our fantastic locally brewed beers, but also such as Goose Eye Brewery and Bingley Brewery, but also making sure those heritage pubs such as Fanny's Ale House and the Beehive in Shipley also benefit from the

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people coming for the Bradford Beer Festival. So thank you. Yes, it's a

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So thank you. Yes, it's a wonderful thing. It's a great way for the local community to see what's on offer locally as well, which they might not otherwise know which they might not otherwise know about. So it's a fantastic thing. So our event is organised, hosted by rotary members and volunteers. by rotary members and volunteers. There's no large paid workforce behind the scenes. Its success depends on people giving their time and energy to support their and energy to support their community, and that's something worth celebrating. So Warrington Rotary will soon mark its centenary, reflecting a century of service to the people of Warrington and beyond. An Oktoberfest is a powerful example of that spirit of service in action. The festival illustrates that beer and hospitality are not simply about what is served across the counter. They are about volunteering, local identity, charitable fundraising, entertainment and friendship. And it also demonstrates the connection between brewing, brewing and the wider community. A brewery supports suppliers, distributors, retailers and pubs. A pub provides a place where those relationships become part of everyday life, and events such as Oktoberfest bring people together and demonstrate how hospitality can support wider charitable and economic activity. But the festival also highlights the important distinction heritage needs to be sustained, not simply celebrated, and its success depends on organisers, volunteers, sponsors, customers and a programme that people actually want to attend. A historic pub faces the same basic reality. If we want pubs to remain part of our communities, we must consider how heritage protection fits. Alongside measures that help businesses trade successfully. The objective should be a living heritage buildings that are cared for, businesses that can operate, and communities that continue to use and value their local spaces. All of this matters because the pub's survival can depend on the relationship between its rent, its turnover and its operating costs. If a business faces a period of weaker trading and inflexible rent review mechanism can make an already difficult situation harder to manage, allowing rents to respond. Yes.

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She's talking about the costs of pubs, which are incredibly important. And when I speak to important. And when I speak to publicans in my constituency, they talk not just about energy costs, but about business rates and other but about business rates and other challenges. Does she agree with me that the steps that the Chancellor is making already to reduce business rates for pubs will help publicans and heritage pubs in particular, continue? And will she support other measures to move support other measures to move those business rates from the high street, as well as pubs, onto

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larger online businesses, which is being proposed? Yes. I think it's. An incredibly important thing.

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An incredibly important thing. So it would be yes, it's it will make a big difference to to businesses and any any little bit businesses and any any little bit of help would be fantastic at this time. I know it's an issue that I speak to my local pubs about quite speak to my local pubs about quite a lot. Madam Deputy Speaker there is a fundamental question at the heart of this debate what exactly are we trying to preserve? If the answer is an architectural asset, the planning and listed building systems provide important tools. If the answer is a building with historical significance for its community, local heritage lists and assets of community value provide routes for recognition. If the answer is the opportunity for a community to take ownership of a pub when it is sold, the community Right to Buy is directly relevant. And if the answer is a business that needs to operate on a sustainable commercial terms, tenancy rules and wider economic conditions also matter. And often the answer is all of those things at once. But different problems may require different solutions. A pub can retain its exterior while losing its historic interior. It can retain its architectural character while ceasing to function as a pub. It can be purchased by a community group and still struggle to cover its costs equally. A pub that is not nationally listed may remain a thriving centre of community life for generations. The challenge is to design legislation that recognises these differences, rather than treating every heritage pub as if it faces identical risks. This is not a question of whether heritage matters, because it plainly does. It's a question of how Parliament can best protect it. Madam Speaker, I want to bring this debate back to the people and places of Warrington South. When we speak about the boroughs brewing heritage, we are speaking about a history of work, enterprise and community. When we speak about 40s Brewery, we are speaking about the continuity, continuity, continuation of brewing traditions and the entrepreneurial spirit that keeps them alive. When we speak about how historic pubs from The Barley Mow to the Ferry Tavern, we are speaking about buildings that connect us with earlier generations. And when we speak about Warrington Octoberfest, we are speaking about volunteers, charities and residents coming together to turn community spirit into practical support for others. These things deserve attention from Parliament, but the best way to protect them is not necessarily to create the largest possible number of new legal requirements, it's to identify the risks, accurately, use existing powers effectively, and ensure that any new powers address a genuine gap. It's to support independent brewing and hospitality businesses that give local products a market, and to consider a building's heritage, alongside the economic circumstances that determine whether a business can continue to operate. Warrington has a proud brewing brewing history and its pubs are part of the social and

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architectural story of Our Town. But yeah. I'm grateful for giving way.

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I'm grateful for giving way. She's giving me a run for my money. Madam Speaker, in terms of the length of her contribution to this debate, I wonder whether she'd debate, I wonder whether she'd agree with me that that description that she's just shared with the House the importance of breweries and pubs and the rest to her and pubs and the rest to her community would extend right across the United Kingdom. I was in Derry Londonderry on Wednesday with an All-Ireland Select Committee. We All-Ireland Select Committee. We went to a brewery there. We met the family running it. We saw the blood, sweat and tears they put into it and so I just wanted the hon. Lady to, as much as we enjoy Warrington, to give thought to breweries and

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Kingdom. Yeah, I suppose I can do that. But yeah. Warrington Superior. We know.

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We know. That. And our heritage, our heritage deserves to be protected, heritage deserves to be protected, understood and passed on to future generations. The Warrington South estates are not theoretical. They estates are not theoretical. They concern the preservation of our industrial history, the future of our independent brewing, and the places where our communities places where our communities continue to meet. The ultimate measure of success will not be how many pubs we place on a register. It will be how effectively we protect the heritage that matters.

How many communities are given a genuine, genuine opportunity to save the places they value, and whether those places can continue to play a living part in our towns and villages.
13:26
Kevin Bonavia Portrait Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)
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Yeah. Kevin Bonavia thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire. It's a really important topic, and I think really important topic, and I think every member who's here today has done a sterling job in speaking up for the public houses and their communities. But I think my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South just hit the nail on the head in her really comprehensive contribution just there. I think the point is, is that we have to be very careful about what measures we take in this place in trying to support the pubs that we care and love for, and we have to think about all the ways in which we can help help. And I want to touch on some of that in in what I'm about to say. But first, what do we all agree on in this House? I think we all agree that pubs are at the heart of our shared national identity. For centuries they have provided the places where strangers will socialise, where friendships are formed, where local traditions are sustained and where communities come together. They are part of our national story. But there are also part of the everyday lives here and now of people in towns and villages across the country. There are those who, if they are trying to survey the worth of a public house, would start by evaluating the land it's built on, the size of its rooms, surveying the roof and the foundations for damage, and so on. But I believe that what we've heard from members today is an understanding that this method would fall far short of the true value that a pub holds in our community. It is more than the sum of its parts and the fabric of its building. It is centuries of conversation that have echoed off its walls, the generations of locals who have passed through its doors and worn the floorboards smooth, and the warm embrace it provides to individuals and families. It's knowing that you are in your local, that you are with friends and neighbours. And when a stranger comes in, you introduce yourself to them and you hear what is going on. And keeping in touch, not just on your mobile phone, but by living human beings. And a pub can serve as a living memory of the community in which it sits. That's why it is the clearest embodiment of heritage that I can think of. And despite the many differences in life today compared to the past and changes to the way many of us think of pubs, change is not unique to our time. I represent Stevenage, a town with a distinctive place in our national history. As Britain's first post-war new town. 80 years old next month. Do come along and too.

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He mentions new town status of of his constituency. And I wonder of his constituency. And I wonder if he would share my thought that it presents a model for how new towns may be able to be rolled out

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elsewhere in the country. My hon. Friend. Thank thank thank you, my hon. Friend from Hertfordshire as well. Makes a really, really important point. There are lessons to be learned There are lessons to be learned from new towns and including how we place pubs and hearts of our community. And Stevenage is salutary in that respect, because when the pioneers of Stevenage put our town together, they thought very carefully about place. Many people deride this concept of a 15 minute, 15 minute towns where where it's some kind of conspiracy to try and keep you trapped in new homes. Far from it. The pioneers of Stevenage thought that you had to have your community centres 50, no more than 50 minutes from where you live, and at the heart of that community centre. That community neighbourhood would be the pub. And in Stevenage, every neighbourhood

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you go to you will find a pub or a former pub and that is the point. Madam Speaker, I'm enjoying

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Madam Speaker, I'm enjoying listening to my hon. Friend from Stevenage. He's talked about his new town. My town's an old town. It new town. My town's an old town. It received its charter from King Henry the Second in 1773. So I wonder whether my hon. Friend would wonder whether my hon. Friend would agree it's not just new towns where we've seen examples of contributions pubs can make, but ancient towns like

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Newcastle-under-Lyme too. Yeah. I'm very happy to agree with my hon. Friend, because as I was just about to turn to turn to my speech, I represent the UK's first post-war new town. But that new town is built around an old town in which I live myself, an old town that still has ten pubs along its high street. And that high street is part of the Great North Road from London to Edinburgh, the first overnight stop for coaches. So we still have examples of coaching inns, the red line being its most famous, I would say. And we also have in the old town what was the white line now? The mulberry tree. And I turned to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh talking about the Tolbooth Tavern. I believe in the Royal Mile that had been a prison, amongst other things. Well, the white Line was also a prison for Napoleonic prisoners of war. No prisoners of war 200 years ago became a vestry, a fire station as well, and is now perhaps the liveliest pub down the high Street on a Friday night. So where I am in the high street, our pubs are thriving. As I said, we have ten. But across the new town, where your nearest pub would be 15 minutes walk away. Some of those have gone. The Twin Foxes, the. The oldest pub in the new town in Bedwell that is now a block of flats and that was a salutary warning many years ago that, you know, getting pub survive is really, really difficult. Well. There are

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happy. I thank the hon. Gentleman,

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I thank the hon. Gentleman, obviously celebrating his post-war new town. We in Shipley and new town. We in Shipley and Saltaire have one of the very original sort of model towns built original sort of model towns built by the great factory owner, a title salt, who was also a philanthropist. He built many things in that He built many things in that village for the community a church, a school, a library, high quality homes, some almshouses. But one thing he did not put in the village was a pub, because he saw that alcohol. He was a religious man and he decided that it was not a good thing for his workers to have access to a pub. As a consequence, the historic Victoria pub was built, now grade two, listed on the edge of Saltaire in 1875. But it had to be on the outskirts. Sadly, that pub is a pub co and is currently seeking a tenant for its ongoing use, showing I guess some of the challenges of our pubs, but I would thank. OK. Thank you.

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Well, I think my friend makes a really important point there is that is that we need places to come together, whether or not we're drinking alcohol or not. And in, in drinking alcohol or not. And in, in Stevenage in the old town, we've got plenty of pubs. We've also got lots of other areas, other other buildings that had been pubs but are still meeting places. Conversely, we've got buildings Conversely, we've got buildings that were used for other purposes, like either snooker. We've got a snooker club that is now partly a microbrewery, the taproom there and in there that has benefited from the previous Labour government's rollout and encouragement of microbreweries, and it has a nod to its heritage. Yes.

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Thank you. He's giving an important speech and I was reflecting on the town of Stevenage reflecting on the town of Stevenage and its age being only 80 years, that heritage pubs in this bill are that heritage pubs in this bill are defined as pubs that are older than 150 years, and whilst whilst that is important, there are many old pubs, including in my constituency pubs, including in my constituency of that age and the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire has some fantastic pubs in his area. For those new pubs in his area. For those new towns that have that heritage, is that Bill somehow exclusionary

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because of that situation? I thank my hon. Friend, I'm a really important point. Now, I know the sponsor of this bill is saying it's beyond the age of 150. But the point is, is that I think wording and implications of wording matters in legislation. So if I were to in legislation. So if I were to frame a bill that he's trying to do, I would do it in a different way. More importantly, I would actually More importantly, I would actually having thought about when we bring laws into this place, that actually it's not sometimes about always bringing new laws, it's about how we better implement the laws already out there. And I want to turn to that in the final part of my contribution today. But the point linking in with about heritage and new places that become the future heritage pubs, the taproom in the the old town in Stevenage. It has a nod to the heritage. It it's it's microbial. It's most famous brand is a six

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Hills. And I have to. I'm very interested to hear about this brewing. Madam Speaker,

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I wonder if the hon. Member will tell us what he thought if he was there now. Thank you very much. In fact, I

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Thank you very much. In fact, I I'm glad he did. Indeed, I was there last last week and I was what you can get. They do samples of all you can get. They do samples of all their beers. So I did try a few tiny samples. I was making sure I wasn't having too much, but I do wasn't having too much, but I do currently like their their stout. So that's why I would recommend that. That's my personal favourite. But it's all names of the Six Hills. Anyone who comes into Stevenage will see those six hills. They are in fact Roman burial mounds, and that is a nod to our ancient heritage in Stevenage too. So we are far more than just a new town, but across our new town, it's important what we do with our pubs as well, and I've been very keen to make sure that although you're not supposed to be talking about religion, politics and pubs, I really wholly disagree with that. Before I became an MP and since I've been an MP, I've been promoting pints, pints and politics in local pubs. Have a beverage Kev, and as well. And do you pay and and do you know what it's I should say this. It's really, really important because local residents have come and some people older than myself who have never voted and have come say, look, you know, why should I vote? What is this politics thing all about? And that sounds, you know, you might think in a place like this, OK, well, you know, you're almost belittling that. Absolutely not. We have to get ourselves into our communities, and there's no better way than getting to into our pubs. And that is why it's so important that we in this Yes.

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He's making a really important point about engaging with communities inside pubs. So I go to communities inside pubs. So I go to some of the more deprived parts of my community and pop in after some door knocking for a pint in the pub door knocking for a pint in the pub and the people I talk to, they're completely disillusioned with politics. But the opportunity to engage with their member of engage with their member of Parliament in the space that they're comfortable in, amongst their community is absolutely vital. So I'd like to celebrate and So I'd like to celebrate and congratulate him for doing that, and would encourage more of my colleagues to do the same.

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And ensure that we all, as members of this place, do our best to get out to wherever our constituents are, and there's no constituents are, and there's no better place than the local pub. better place than the local pub. But beyond the town of Stevenage, I mustn't forget that I also represent four villages Knebworth, represent four villages Knebworth, Codicote, Datchworth and Aston, and in Knebworth we have the Station in Knebworth we have the Station pub there. Now this is a pub that was not going to survive, built around the station over a hundred years ago, and it became a community asset, an asset, community value. And that's when the councillors, residents, the parish council came together and were able to to buy that pub. And many members here are very welcome to pop into the station arms, if they are very lucky enough to have a ticket to Oasis at our their six six concerts at Knebworth Park next summer. Are you going now? I, I hear, I hear, I hear some whether whether I'll be attending. I really hope that I can, but we've got to make sure that whether you're there for Oasis, please come and see Knebworth. But. Oasis themselves, before they made their names in their birth in 1996, also start out in a pub in The Man in the moon in in Stevenage. And that's. And that's the point. These places we were talking about whether it should be a building that I'm very happy to.

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See it. I'm very good. I'm. Thank you, thank you. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. And hon. Friend for giving way. And having been an attendee at that concert in 1996, I would I'd like to like to ask my hon. Friend whether he's aware that Liam whether he's aware that Liam Gallagher also frequented pubs in my neighbourhood, where I was growing up as well, where his

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growing up as well, where his favourite pint was a Guinness. Oh excellent stuff. I thank my hon. Friend from Watford there and I mean, it's far from me to cast aspersions about where Liam Gallagher's been drinking around the country, but I'm. I'm sure wherever he goes, he brings joy to the buildings he attends. But but but the the point about the man in the moon in Stevenage is this a pub only a few decades old. But we need to make sure that it is remembered for its heritage in those decades and not hundreds of years ago. And that is the point which I don't think this this bill really addresses head on another pub, the Rose and Crown in Aston is again a pub that was not going to was not going to survive. And at this time we actually had residents who were buying community shares in this and it survived. So we've got two examples of pub surviving in my constituency, but that's great. It's got the mechanisms, but people willing to come forward and having the funds to do it. And this is where I really want to come back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway was saying earlier. We need to make sure that the community, when they have that, will also have the ability to actually purchase and run these pubs, and that is no mean feat. And it's not simply legislation. I think we have to think far more about how we make that possible. So that's something I hope that the Minister can touch on. In her winding up remarks. So I've given you examples in Stevenage of why protection of our pubs matters. We already have, as has been said by other members of this place, protections in place. We have new ones coming in, in the devolution Bill, but Devolution Act that's going to make possible this year and next, and I would really encourage other communities to follow that and take advantage of that. But beyond that, we need to make sure that we are protecting existing pubs, existing enterprises there. And I'm pleased that the government has, yes, perhaps to give Jonathan Davies.

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Referenced a number of important and valuable pubs within his constituency. None of them seem to constituency. None of them seem to be assets of community value. That system has been in place for 15 years. If that's an effective years. If that's an effective protection, why does he think so few communities have registered few communities have registered these important pubs as assets of community value? What has prevented them from doing so?

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them from doing so? No, I thank the hon. Gentleman. We could have a whole debate about that. The reasons for that side of the today's Second Reading debate. And so so one of one of the reasons, one of the most important reasons, I think, really is actually giving the community the ability and the awareness and the know how wherewithal to be able to do that in the first place. So it's not just about making laws, it's what we do with them that really, really counts, I think. And so while I'm pleased that there is new legislation coming in that's going to help protect pubs, regardless of what happens to today's bill, and while I'm pleased that this government has made such an effort to support existing pub businesses around our country, remember we we lost one. 1 in 6 pubs were lost in the tenure of the last government. So it's important. Yeah. Yes.

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Thank you. I was just reflecting on on the exchange around the assets of community value. I have assets of community value. I have many people in my constituency that do want to support pubs, that do want to set up community spaces and want to set up community spaces and that do want to support charities and set them up. But there seems to be a gap in, in education. So be a gap in, in education. So there's there's a gap in giving the tools to the community to enable them to do that. I know it's them to do that. I know it's slightly adjacent to this, this bill here, but because we can also talk about heritage pubs in that, do you think there is a bigger role for local government to provide that education to communities that

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want to take that step? Yeah, yeah. I thank my hon. Friend. It's a really important point, and we have really important point, and we have to use all tools at disposal. We, as individual members of Parliament cannot do that alone. We need to cannot do that alone. We need to work with our communities as no better example than I think our local authorities. But beyond that, local authorities. But beyond that, you know, it was a it was a parish council and both Aston and Knebworth that made it possible. And they were the ones who went out and put the letters through letterboxes and all of that, really, that's what matters. It's human beings that make our pubs. And that's where I really want to end today, Madam Speaker. It's making our pubs places for people.

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Like very good. Peter Prinsley if you're ready.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. So this has been a very interesting debate, which has been very long and perhaps like many other hon. Members, I'm also beginning to feel Members, I'm also beginning to feel the need for a beer. But I should I should first of all like to thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this very interesting debate. Now, members may notice

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that he's wearing a tie, which is the same as my tie. Yes. Where the government whips.

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Where the government whips. Now, this is the tie of the

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Now, this is the tie of the Parliamentary Beer APPG, and I'd like to recommend all of those members who are here to consider members who are here to consider membership of that APPG, which is I can see something that you all have
13:45
Peter Prinsley Portrait Dr Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)
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can see something that you all have an interest in. It has a marvellous dinner which is held at the Engineers Ballroom once a year, which I've been to now twice, and I. I should like to recommend it to to

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happy. To, as a member of the APPG, be. I wondered if he could therefore

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I wondered if he could therefore recommend what his favourite beer is. Oh.

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Oh. I I, I will, I will come to that in in a moment. I certainly do have in in a moment. I certainly do have in in a moment. I certainly do have a favourite beer. Now. If you'll

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allow me. One moment. No order. papers? I just have something. Oh, I

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I just have something. Oh, I have something written on my phone which has been sent to me, which I would like to read.

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would like to read. As long as it's on topic. Doctor Peter Prinsley.

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It is, it is. It is absolutely,

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absolutely on the topic. I will. Whilst he just thinks about the contribution he's about to make, the hon. Member from Devizes and I had the pleasure of visiting my hon. Friend's constituency not that long ago. The sad thing is we didn't manage to visit a pub. If we had,

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which one should we have gone to? I'm grateful for that question and I shall answer it. The Bury St Edmunds and Norwich Post in April Edmunds and Norwich Post in April 1911 listed 79 hostelries in bury. By 2019 there were only 21. And here's a little ditty about them. here's a little ditty about them. The three Kings joined in the sport and chased around the Wheatsheaf to the Suffolk hunt, on to the cupola house where the Red lion stopped their sport. Looking for more fun, a swan was seen near the elephant and castle, looking for the Market Tavern. When the old angel came along and led it astray to the Rutland Arms, and sent for the Shepherd and dog to convey it to the Railway Tavern, to be packed up with the Saracen's head, and sent as a present to the cricketers who were having dinner at the dog and Partridge on their way. The Ram saw the half moon in the nutshell, and did a star performance amongst the old curiosities, knocking down three horse shoes, exploding an old cannon and blowing off the King's arms, which were sent to the Joiners Arms to be repaired, after which he went to the New Inn for refreshments, which made him a bit lively, and getting all the taps to join him when they went to the Suffolk Shades to empty the gallon can, which they did. So their sorrow for the police had to send them to the Ipswich Arms to get sober. They were last seen near the toll gate, singing we are all jolly good fellows, and that's that. So I

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apologise for having to read that Madam Speaker. I really enjoyed that. But the one thing my friend didn't do was answer the question I put to him answer the question I put to him before he performed which. Which was where should me and the hon.

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was where should me and the hon. Member for Devizes had gone when we were in his constituency? The hon. Member must have a moment more patience, for I am moment more patience, for I am coming to that right. So look. Pubs have been at the heart of life in Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket for centuries. They are part of our history, our local economy and our communities. And my constituency has no shortage of remarkable stories to tell. Now. Greene King has brewed in Bury St Edmunds since 1799. Its level head beer has made it into the stranger's. But now the Chancellor, I feel, should be offered a pint before the Budget for if ever there was a speech that required a level head, that is surely it. But Greene King is not living on its history. Last year I joined the company as work began on its new £40 million brewery at the Suffolk Business Park, which will be completed next spring. It'll keep brewing in Bury St Edmunds, sustain local employment and make production more sustainable. Now that is heritage and growth. Working together now at the Parliamentary Beer Association dinner to which I referred, Mr. Nick McKenzie, the chief executive of Greene King, was sitting on my table and he was awarded the Community Hero Award for the actions that Greene King have taken in the community at Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket. It is a fantastic local business, and I may say that I mentioned this to our former Prime Minister, who said that he himself would be content to come and open the brewery when it opens next spring. And I said to him, well, all we need to do now is organise a parliamentary piss up in a brewery. And he said, what could possibly go wrong? So anyway, I certainly will.

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Oh no no, what a, what a, what a wonderful, magnificent story that was. Just to reflect on the was. Just to reflect on the community value that pubs and breweries can add on top of their location and their heritage. To give one reflection, in my constituency hunting tree, the Hunting Tree pub was recently under new owners and they're doing a new owners and they're doing a fantastic job to bring families in with activities in the garden whilst raising money for guide dogs. So could he could he talk about other examples in his constituency where where the community has really benefited not just by going to the pub, but by the activities that the pubs and breweries do?

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Gets to his feet. I remind you, you're speaking through the chair, so I must not be staring at your

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so I must not be staring at your back. I'm so sorry, Doctor Peter Prinsley. I apologise, Madam Deputy

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I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. So at the Angel hotel, well known Charles Dickens stayed in 1835. Later this featured in The Pickwick Papers. He returned Pickwick Papers. He returned regularly to give readings next door. Now, two centuries on, guests can still say in the very same room associated with his visits. Now, of course, most hoteliers would simply settle for a good online review. The Masons Arms occupies a building dating early to the 16th century, and in Stowmarket, the Royal William, a traditional backstreet pub, only granted its licence in the 1960s, serves real ale by gravity. Now there are plenty of things I'd like to see modernised, but certainly not that. Then I come but certainly not that. Then I come to my favourite pub. The Nutshell The Nutshell in the Guinness Book of Records. As the smallest pub in the country, just 15ft long by seven feet wide, complete with a mummified cat. In 1984, an extraordinary 102 people and a dog called blob reportedly squeezed inside. Now, any of us who struggled to find a seat at Prime Minister's Questions should count their blessings now. Stowmarket once had a pub called the Hop Pole Tavern with a railway siding running all the way through it. Now I support travelling to the pub by train, but that was taking integrated transport rather too literally. Now I have already read one of the ditties about the Berry Saint Edmunds pubs, so I shan't tell you another one, although

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yes. I know who are you giving way to?

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I know who are you giving way to? Anna Dixon thank you for giving way and for. Thank him for way and for. Thank him for addressing the question posed by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme about his favourite pub, but I am still in anticipation and suspense to learn what his favourite beer is. Could what his favourite beer is. Could you please put me out of my misery?

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Yes, I, I will come to that, but I want to make a more serious point, if I may. OK. Now, as we know, sadly many, many pubs have disappeared. I understand that we disappeared. I understand that we lost something like 7000 pubs during the 14 years of conservative rule, and we continue to lose pubs. rule, and we continue to lose pubs. We. We see as we any of us that either walk around our towns or drive through the country can see closed down pubs. But of course habits have changed and laws have changed. Now some of these laws are exceptionally good ideas. For instance, the law about drink driving is an excellent idea and has saved thousands of lives. I recall my father years ago, who was himself a physician, telling me that when he was younger, if you were caught drink driving and you had an accident, the fact that you were drunk was regarded as an excuse. And so times have moved on considerably.

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On the subject of drink driving, I wonder whether my hon. Friend, who I'm pleased to have sat down to give way because I didn't pause to allow him to decide that. So I do apologise to him, Madam Deputy apologise to him, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I wonder whether my hon. Friend had any thoughts about hon. Friend had any thoughts about the reply fair, which opened yesterday in on the market place of Ripley. It's the 775th fair. It was opened by the Mayor of Ripley yesterday. Several pubs are on that market place, and I dare say that some people will be attending frequenting those pubs before going on the dodgems. And I wonder what my friend would have to say about that. Doctor.

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I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. I would say that it. It's probably a poor idea to to to fill oneself up with alcohol and then go on the with alcohol and then go on the dodgems. I think it would exacerbate the vestibular upset. Likely, yes.

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Likely, yes. I thank my hon. Friend and learned friend for, for for giving way. He mentions that his father too was a physician. I wonder, does he and his father's opinion differ on which the more healthy benefits derive from lager or bitter as as as a result of their experience? Thank you very much.

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I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Lager in my time was intervention. Lager in my time was regarded as a sort of newfangled drink that was drunk in other drink that was drunk in other countries. In Yorkshire, very few people drank lager in in those days. people drank lager in in those days. Now I also want to talk about something else, which is the smoking ban. I told you I was going smoking ban. I told you I was going to have a little serious section in this. One of the reasons why people have stopped going to pubs is because there's no smoking in pubs. And of course, stopping smoking is was is one of the best things we've done. The law that we passed in this Parliament, the Tobacco and Vapes bill, to make it the case that you had to be older and older and older in order to buy cigarettes is the single, in my opinion, the single best thing that we've done, the single measure, which will save more lives than anything else that we're likely to do in this Parliament. So I applaud that. But I recognise that that has had consequences for pubs where people would gather to drink beer

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and smoke and have good cheer. Suddenly he makes an excellent

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Suddenly he makes an excellent point about the health benefits of the cigarette ban in pubs and I I to welcome the new tobacco and vape bill and the age limit increasing periodically. So people who are periodically. So people who are young today cannot smoke. Do you think because there are so few people in the increasing reduction in number of people that are in number of people that are smoking at younger ages, that that may, in due course become a benefit for pubs because that that drag, that they're not allowed to smoke inside no longer becomes a problem because they're not smoking.

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Doctor gets to his feet, no, you or yours because you are speaking

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through the chair. Doctor Peter Prinsley. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my friend for his I thank my friend for his intervention. Look, I, I simply think that the smoking ban is is an utterly brilliant thing to do. I can't predict what will happen to pubs as a result of that, but it's pubs as a result of that, but it's not been good for country pubs. I just want to make one final remark before I close, which is about the issue of supermarkets and the cost of beer in convenience stores in the convenience store at the bottom of my street. It's less expensive to buy a slab of lager than it is to buy a slab of Coca Cola, so there's something gone seriously wrong about the pricing arrangements for beer. And I see that Greene King has now discontinued its off licence production and will only sell beer in pubs. And I would like a very much to see something done within our tax system to make it much less attractive to buy alcohol in convenience stores and supermarkets.

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I wonder if the hon. Gentleman is aware of the Ceba. The small is aware of the Ceba. The small Independent Brewers Associations campaign called Drop the Tap Tax, which would be looking to specifically lower the alcohol duty on beer sold in pubs via hand pulls and keg taps. And would be that something that he would like to something that he would like to discuss with the Chancellor over a pint of Greene King? Which favourite beer I.

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favourite beer I. I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. I would very much like to speak to the Chancellor over a pint of beer about quite a number of things, but perhaps that's something that I could request. So, look, I simply can't go on with this speech forever, but. So, look, there are many aspects of this bill that I welcome the bill's ambition to identify and protect heritage pubs is welcome, but register a simple register won't pay the electricity bill.

Protection must go hand in hand with helping the pubs adapt, remain accessible and, crucially, to stay commercially viable. So I want the next generation to know our pubs, not only from old photographs but from Sunday lunches, quiz nights and conversations with neighbours. We must preserve these, these, these. They mustn't be left as empty buildings. We must keep them alive. So let's protect the history and give all of our locals a future worth drinking to. Speaker.
14:00
Chris Murray Portrait Chris Murray MP (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, Labour)
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And it's a pleasure to take part >> And it's a pleasure to take part in this debate. And I had a very enjoyable tour of the historic pubs enjoyable tour of the historic pubs of England this afternoon. Can I thank the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for and South Staffordshire for bringing forward this bill? It's an important moment, and it's given us all an opportunity to pay tribute to the outstanding contribution that heritage pubs make to not just our communities that we represent, but in fact the fabric of our national identity in the UK. And we've heard contributions from across the House and across the country about the amazing pubs that we have. The hon. Member spoke about the case of the crooked House being the genesis of this bill, and although I've never visited it, I never got the opportunity. The Katy references was an outrage, and I vividly remember seeing the coverage, and I understand completely the argument that something so appalling should never have been allowed to happen. Heritage pubs are crucial and important, and I have so many in my own constituency of Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, which I do my best to support as the local member of Parliament by visiting them all

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assiduously. I'm afraid I cannot claim. Yes, happily. I thank my friend for giving way.

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I thank my friend for giving way. Has he. Has he succeeded in achieving that task as yet? Thank you for that intervention.

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Thank you for that intervention. I don't know if that's possible, but I assure him I am putting my shoulder to the wheel and do my shoulder to the wheel and do my best. And will I support pubs as a patron? I'm afraid I cannot claim to have supported them behind the to have supported them behind the bar. I, as a young man, got a job in a pub and managed to last one day before being sacked because I was completely incompetent at it. But I still support them. And pubs across the UK, in Scotland and the rest of the UK face pressures and these can be higher for heritage pubs. Issues like upkeep costs, like building maintenance, like the higher bills associated with an historic site can put extra pressures. And although this bill only applies in England and Wales, let me be the voice of heritage pubs in Scotland in this debate, because I think the view, the perspective from Scotland will be instructive for members in understanding the shared challenges our pubs face on both sides of the border. And as a passionate believer in the United Kingdom, I passionately believe that while we have different ecosystems and we face different challenges, what unites us is far stronger than what divides us, and we can learn so much from and support each other. Because the pubs in Edinburgh East and Musselburgh tell the story of the challenges that historic pubs face. The Member for Spelthorne, who is no longer in this place, suggested that by mentioning a pub, an MP is hoping to get a free pint when they visit. I think he underestimates what it takes to get a free pint out of an Edinburgh publican. So, for example, in my constituency we have the Sheep's Head Inn in Duddingston at 1360. I think this is the oldest pub in Scotland and potentially the oldest pub reference today in the chamber, which lies between Edinburgh Castle and one part of my constituency, and Craigmillar Castle and the other famously a stopping point for King James VI as he travelled between them and. And there's no better day spent in Edinburgh that. Than climbing Arthur's Seat and then descending to the sheep's head afterwards for a pint. I've already told members about the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile, which was used as both a council chamber as a prison and

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then later a pub. On that point, yes I have. I'm grateful to the hon. Member

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I'm grateful to the hon. Member for giving way. I can't resist the opportunity when the law or prisons are talked about to talk about it are talked about to talk about it with my past as a Crown prosecutor, but on this occasion, I just wanted to ask whether the hon. Member to ask whether the hon. Member might like to join me at some point in the future, to have a cocktail in the future, to have a cocktail at the Moot Bar in my constituency town of Alfreton. They do great cocktails, but they originally sit on the site of a moot hall where the jury trial is thought to have originated from. So would the hon. Member like to join me at some

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point in the future? I would very much enjoy visiting that pub with my hon. Friend, but that pub with my hon. Friend, but only on the condition that she comes with me to another pub connected with the criminal justice connected with the criminal justice system in my constituency, the White Hart Inn on the Grassmarket, which is where I spent Saturday which is where I spent Saturday night. Now this is a pub that was founded in 1510. The current building comes from George early Georgian times and in the Georgian period there was no better day out in Edinburgh than to go and watch a public execution on the Grassmarket and then go for a drink in the White Hart Inn afterwards. Now we don't do that anymore, although during the Edinburgh Festival it is fun to go and see some comedians get murdered and then go to the White Hart for a pint afterwards. And it is these in these historic pubs with their history, that one feels the connection not just with the local community, but with the history of the place that you are. I think of the enzyme Stuart, just outside the gates of Edinburgh, Edinburgh City, Edinburgh Castle, sorry, which still has a memorabilia from the Waterloo Battles as named after a hero of Waterloo and in Edinburgh. These pubs in the Old Town have made an outstanding contribution to world history because the Scottish Enlightenment that took place in the old town of Edinburgh, it took place because everybody lived in very crowded area on in flats piled up on top of each other, at the top of the aristocrats and the middle, the merchants, and in the lower class in the lower flats, the working classes and the urban poor, because they were all living side by side, cheek by jowl. They would then congregate in the pubs of Edinburgh, and people wouldn't talk to people from their own social class. They would talk to people from other social classes about the ideas of politics and reform and religion and philosophy that were going around the continent, and it's because everybody in Edinburgh had to get together in the pubs like that, that they were able to exchange ideas, and the enlightenment took hold in our city. So we underestimate the power of pubs at our peril. And although many are in this debate, have been extolling the virtues of the pubs in their constituency, I think I've one upped everyone by claiming that Western civilisation actually developed in nine. But it's not just actually in the medieval old town of Edinburgh that you find the value of historic pubs. For example, the SP in Portobello is a seafront staple and owner Amanda Caygill, who has been a long serving part of the Portobello scene, has recently left after 19 years serving the community and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens from who takes over. We've also got in Musselburgh the volunteer arms known to locals as stags. This is one of Camra's real ale pubs of the year, with a beautiful Victorian interior. It has recently featured in department Q on Netflix and the owners, Katie Mackenzie, Nigel Findlay and Hayley Findlay make a massive contribution to Musselburgh life. I am particularly indebted to them because when I was last there, I left my keys on the bench and they very kindly put them in a taxi to send them across Edinburgh for me. Yes, of course.

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The hon. Member is most kind for giving way. Bannerman's bar of giving way. Bannerman's bar of course. In in his in in in the hon. Member's constituency is is well Member's constituency is is well frequented, especially during during the fringe. But right across the House we've had the most wonderful arguments and expositions of, of, of pubs. And I'm just of, of, of pubs. And I'm just wondering if, if the hon. Member is,

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is, is, is convinced that this bill should pass. Chris Murray.

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Chris Murray. I thank for that intervention. He's absolutely right. Bannerman's is a fantastic Edinburgh pub and as I was coming to the point, I do I was coming to the point, I do support the principles of protecting historic pubs and I'm trying to underline my support for historic pubs in my own constituency right now. As I was saying, we've got pubs like saying, we've got pubs like Bennett's in Tollcross, a beautiful pub with dark wood brass taps right beside the newly reopened King's Theatre, the Old Lady of Leven Street and the Armoury Tavern in Joppa, a historic tenement lounge, one of those great tenement pubs that you get in Edinburgh. I can really recommend it. After a day campaigning and the cold wind of Edinburgh and Portobello, and another of my favourites is the Regent in Abbey Hill. Now the Regent wouldn't qualify for the 150 year rule. That in this legislation, because the Regent is a gay bar and 150 years ago homosexuality was decriminalised, the Regent opened. It was criminalised. Regent opened in 2003, which, shockingly, is only 22 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Scotland. And it underlines the point that pubs are not just bricks and mortar, they are not just places you go, they are not just a local phenomenon. But when you look at gay bars, they are placed where community that come from far and wide, seeking people like them. And I last went to Regent because it's in central Edinburgh. I last went after the Holyrood Garden party and I walked up from Holyrood Palace seeing the King and Queen up up to the Regent, where I saw some of my other fellow Queen's. And it it it really underlines to me the the role that gay pubs can play in bringing communities together and allowing people a safe space where they do not fear attack, and also to bring your friends from the straight community along so they can see and understand and acclimatise to our culture. And we've been talking about the closure of pubs in this country, which is a problem that we have to face. But actually gay clubs, gay pubs and LGBT venues have been closing disproportionately faster than ordinary pubs. So a study by UCL found that between 2006 and 2017, all of all pubs, 25% have closed. But of LGBT venues, 58% have closed. So pubs are not just about bricks and mortar. They're not just a geographic community, they're about identity. And community is not always geographic. It can go further. I know the Minister is the member of Parliament for Vauxhall, so I'm sure she will understand very well the role of LGBT venues in protecting our pubs, but I'd be very happy to take her to the Royal Vauxhall Tavern and other Tavern in her constituency, should she need any further convincing. Now, while my constituency is home to pubs, sadly we are governed by an SNP government in Scotland and as a result of their policies we are seeing pubs closing fast. For example, last year the Willow and Jock's Lodge closed its doors and was demolished just a few weeks ago to make room for student flats. Jock's lodge is a historic part of Edinburgh, but it's. But its character has been changing rapidly as our city grows. It served the communities of Rachel Blake and Meadowbank since at least 1650, where it was the last stop on the London to Edinburgh stagecoach. Probably the same people who stopped at Stevenage on their way. And for this Bill, the challenge that we have is preserving the character and identity of a of a district as it changes. That's the task that you have with this legislation, because in Scotland, under SNP legislation, that is not happening. So for Jock's Lodge, Edinburgh Council intervened and blocked the decision. But the Scottish Government, centralising, as always, called it, in and over the objections of a of a thousand residents. They vetoed the the objections. This comes on top of 50% of pubs faster than England closing in Scotland 293 Scottish pubs have closed permanently since 2021. 4.1% of pubs in Scotland. England have closed. 6.4 of pubs in Scotland have closed. This is due to government decisions and I counsel you to look over the border.

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The mistakes the SNP are making. Yes. And I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I'm very troubled by what he's saying now. I I'm not familiar with Scotland. Scotland in great detail. Clearly my friend is is an expert in the my friend is is an expert in the area. I did visit there and had a lovely time in last summer, lovely time in last summer, although I'm not sure it could be counted as a summer if that's the weather to go by. But with whisky being such an important part of the economy in Scotland, I wonder if you. If the hon. Member has any thoughts about the link between the pubs closing and the and the

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economy and the impact on that reference. Whisky. My hon. Friend, makes an incredibly important point. Scotland is obviously a centre, the world capital of whisky, and it. On world capital of whisky, and it. On the one hand, the spirits industry and the whisky industry are crucial and the whisky industry are crucial parts of keeping pubs open and there are a lot of pubs in Scotland where in my constituency we often where in my constituency we often go in and see people drinking a dram, and it's not the sort of beers and wines that keep pubs open in England in the same way. But on the other hand, the challenges facing whisky industry are trying are the same as the ones that closed down south of the border. The big challenge is cost, so it's much cheaper for someone to buy a bottle of whisky or gin and drink it at home. Just as the Member for Barry was talking about. With beer as it is for pubs. And that is one of the big challenges we have. But it's not just that. It's also challenges like business rates and it's challenges like planning. So members have been discussing what they see as the flaws in English planning system to protect pubs. I listened with envy because the rules are much stronger here to protect them than they are in Scotland. So freestanding pubs can still shamelessly, shamefully be demolished without planning permission in Scotland. And Camra has long been calling for this loophole to be closed in England, demolishing a pub or changing its use needs a planning application because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant development rights, and that allows councils a chance to weigh up any impact. But in Scotland that's not the case. Pubs are better protected in England and I would like us to follow suit in Scotland as and on business rates relief. The UK Labour government has brought in business rates relief that will help pubs, but in Scotland those have not properly and fairly been passed to pubs in the community. As always in Scotland under the SNP. Will the proposal from the Scottish Government may sound generous on paper, the reality is, and the pub industry argues, the way the Scottish Government has structured its relief leaves many businesses worse off. On average, a pub in my constituency would have been paying £36,000 extra in rates had the SNP not been forced to backtrack. So to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is very important to hear the cross-party and cross-country support for heritage pubs in the UK in this chamber today, I am happy to work with any member from any party who wants to build them up and many aspects of this bill. I do welcome, from community ownership to bringing people together to allow our local economy to thrive, are the crucial roles that historic pubs have been playing in our constituencies for literally centuries. Long may they continue

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to do so. Anna Dixon. Yes.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm delighted to be called to speak in this debate, and I do want speak in this debate, and I do want to thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing forward Staffordshire for bringing forward this Bill, and I don't think there are any of us in the House who would question his motivation, and would question his motivation, and we've heard the passion with which he's spoken of the terrible destruction that befell the crooked House pub within his own constituency.

And I think many of us will remember hearing about it in the news and the events that followed. And I think, as we've heard from so many fantastic contributions from colleagues and members across the House that we all share in the in that desire to not only preserve our heritage pubs,
14:18
Anna Dixon Portrait Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)
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but to ensure those heritage pubs that have been there for centuries at the heart of our villages and at the heart of our villages and our communities will continue to thrive for decades. And indeed, thrive for decades. And indeed, let's hope centuries to come. Because, as we've heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, these pubs are so Deputy Speaker, these pubs are so much more than small businesses. They are community institutions. They are places where memories are formed. They are places where history is made.

And I do say that having to follow my hon. Friend from Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, who obviously is claiming one of his pubs is, you know, the birth of the enlightenment. It's obviously very tricky for me to match that, although I do have a very interesting and historic pubs in my own constituency across Shipley. So yes, they are meeting places. They're places of history. For me personally, pubs are where I gather with my family, with my mum and dad, my brothers, sisters, the nieces and nephews on family occasions around the large table, often enjoying a Sunday roast with obviously large portions of Yorkshire pudding washed down with one of my favourite locally brewed pints.

It's obviously difficult to mention what my favourite beer is. Unlike the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, who I'm still assuming that his favourite beer is Greene King because he did mention it a lot in his speech. I will have to mention several of my favourite local brews. Saltaire Brewery, The Goose Eye Brewing Crossflatts and the Bingley Brewery in Wilsden all produced excellent craft brews and Madam Deputy Speaker. Those local independent breweries also need to have relationships with the local heritage pubs now.

Sometimes the tide pub codes prevent those independent brewers actually selling their beer in the pubs, which are almost across the road. And so I do feel that we need to be looking more broadly at not only the heritage pubs, but the relationships between independent pubs and independent breweries to make sure that the whole industry thrives. So, as I've said, Madam Deputy Speaker, Shipley constituency is home to many charismatic historic pubs. They welcome locals and visitors alike.

I have, because of the generosity of colleagues, been able to mention briefly a few of those historic pubs. But if you'll indulge me, I do want to just come back to 1 or 2 and say a little bit more detail about them. So the malt shovel in Harden, that is a grade two listed building. It lies next to one of two Roman roads that run through the village. It's believed to have been constructed as early as 1550. And as we've heard from other members, it had a number of historical uses, including a farmhouse, a coaching house, a courtroom and prison.

There does seem to be some connection between pubs and prisons, so I better watch out, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I'm next down there enjoying a pint that somebody doesn't decide to put me in the cell. But it does have a cell room from that time, complete with a barred window. So thankfully I've avoided that thus far when I've been down there. That's partly because I do rather sit in their spacious beer garden, particularly after having done door knocking in the villages, which I tend to focus on in my summer blitz of the villages and.

But it's as cosy inside. Madam Deputy Speaker, with a warm fire in the inglenook fireplace. Now that is reported to date back to the time of William Mary. And that's why in this bill I am very interested in the point about how we preserve the interiors of the pubs, because, as everybody said, that the character of these historic pubs is not only that external facade, but it is very much those interior, whether it's the inglenook fireplace, the beams and other features.

So I do I would like to sort of understand how, you know, we can preserve interiors of these heritage pubs. The second pub that I briefly mentioned, but I do want to come back to in this speech, because I think it's very pertinent to the bill that we're talking about today is the old Glen House in Baildon. Now, this is a beautiful old building dating back at least 500 years. Now. At the moment, I and my constituents are very worried about its future.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it's had a few years of intermittent closures and following the departure of the recent tenants, it does remain closed. It's currently missing a roof. Now, at my recent town Hall meeting Q&A in Baildon, one of the constituents did raise the matter of the pub and obviously when these pubs stand empty, they are at higher risk of arson. I realise that in the case that's still a pending court case, but obviously we see that elsewhere, that neglected buildings, you know, roof that could lead to internal damage.

So my constituents are rightly concerned about the impact on the building of its standing empty, but also on its future. It's a popular pub. It stands on the edge of Shipley Glen on Baildon Moor. This is a fantastic spot. People love to come. They come on the train to Saltaire, they go through the historic Roberts Park and Saltaire World Heritage Site. They catch the Shipley Glen tramway, which is an incredible Victorian engineering feat from 1895. And it used to come up to Shipley Glen where there was a fairground, but that's where the pub is and that's really, you know, a fantastic local asset.

And so I'll be working with local residents, learning from some of the examples that we've heard in the chamber today about how communities have come together. But the first thing is to put pressure on the Pubco to make sure they make necessary improvements, bring it back to its former glory, and protect this valuable community pub, The old Glen House. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think we've heard a lot about sort of community assets, some of the challenges for communities to do that.

And I think that's one of the things we do need to try and understand is that whilst it's fantastic, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill, and I'm a member of the Co-operative Party as well, you know, does give these new powers for communities to buy assets. There are obviously a lot of obstacles that communities face, as we heard so eloquently from my colleague, member for Penrith and.
14:25
14:26
None Portrait Division
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as I say, I. I know it's for the eyes and Lincoln Jopp and Patrick Spencer Tellers for the noes Sarah

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Lock Lock the Lock the door.

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Or Or order.

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Or order.

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Or order. The ayes to the right. 13. The noes to the left. 36.

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noes to the left. 36. The ayes to the right. 13. The noes to the left 36 so the nose habit. The nose habit. Unlock. The question is that the Heritage Public Houses Bill be read a second time date to be resumed. What?

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Objection! Objection taken. Second Reading what day? Friday, the 15th of January 2027.

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Friday, the 15th of January 2027.

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Friday the 15th of January 2027. Emergency and Life Saving Skills

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Emergency and Life Saving Skills Schools bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading.

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What day? Friday. November.

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2026. Automated Online Software Access

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Automated Online Software Access and Transparency Bill. Second Reading.

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No objection. Objection taken. Second Reading what day? 27th of November.

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27th of November. Friday the 27th of November. Public sector exit payments

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limitation Bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day? Friday the 13th of November.

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BBC licence fee non payment decriminalisation for over 75. Bill.

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Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading.

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Objection taken. Second Reading. What day? The 13th of November.

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British Broadcasting Corporation privatisation Bill. Second Reading.

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Object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day. Of November?

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13th of November. Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

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Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Amendment Bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading.

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What day. Of November. 13th of November.

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13th of November. Outdoor education bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading.

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What day? Friday, 29th of January 2027.

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Friday the 29th of January 2027. Ponds Permitted Development Bill.

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Ponds Permitted Development Bill. Second Reading object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day?

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What day? 15th of January 2027. Hospitality services Added value

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Hospitality services Added value tax exemption Bill. Second Reading. Object.

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Object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day? November 13th. November the 13th.

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Sporting and Physical Education Services Value added tax exemption

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bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day?

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13th of November. Meet information about method of

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killing bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day?

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13th of November. Covid-19 vaccine damage payments

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bill. Second Reading. Object. Objection taken. Second Reading. What day?

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What day? 13th of November. European Convention on Human

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European Convention on Human Rights Notification of Withdrawal Bill. Second Reading. I beg to. Move. Object.

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Objection taken. Second Reading. What day? Friday the 15th of January 2027.
14:41
14:43
None Portrait Points of Order
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>> Point of order, sir. >> Christopher Chope Mr Speaker. Thank you. My point of order arises Thank you. My point of order arises from the written statement just issued by the government today, which sets out on the Order Paper which sets out on the Order Paper that the UK was going to respond. The UK government was going to respond to the Covid-19 inquiry. Module four report. That recommendation report was issued exactly six months ago. And so on the very last day when it could be done, the government has presented its response. But the response, instead of being a specific answer to the recommendations set out in the report, merely says, we want more time. And I'm particularly concerned about the recommendations in that Covid-19 inquiry report, where Baroness Hallett set out specific changes which she thought should be made to the Vaccine damage payments scheme. And the government today is saying that they note that and recognise the trauma and distress caused to families waiting long time for processing of their claims. We take these concerns seriously and will look further at what needs to be done.

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Sir Christopher Sir Christopher, this is not a matter for the chair. The chair is not responsible for the content of the statements that are put out by the government. And I think you've made your point. I think you've made your point. Most definitely, most definitely on the front bench of the Treasury front bench. No doubt we'll be making a note of that. And we'll making a note of that. And we'll we'll either respond or you can take further advice from the clerk so you can pursue your point even so you can pursue your point even deeper.

Now, if the frontbench was to shuffle over, this is the moment to do so. Question is that this House do now adjourn and we have
14:45
None Portrait Adjournment: Critical transport infrastructure in Surrey Heath constituency
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Doctor Al Pinkerton on critical transport infrastructure in Surrey Heath. Doctor Al Pinkerton. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There's very little that gives me more pleasure on a Friday afternoon to talk about critical transport infrastructure in Surrey Heath. I infrastructure in Surrey Heath. I am grateful to the House for allowing this debate or this this adjournment, and indeed to the adjournment, and indeed to the Minister for responding this afternoon. If you were to look at a afternoon. If you were to look at a map of the United Kingdom, you would see, and you would perhaps think that Surrey Heath ought to be a well connected place.

We have the M3 on our doorstep. Indeed, the M3 runs right through the middle of the constituency. We have London nearby, we have thriving businesses and indeed the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, over which I sometimes argue with the hon. Member for Bracknell. But try getting across light water at rush hour, catching a train from Camberley or reaching hospital without a car, and a different picture emerges. At the last census, 56% of Surrey Heath households had two or more cars or vans, compared with 35% across England and Wales.

We are in the top 10%. Most car dependent constituencies in the country. That doesn't reflect choice, I would contend it reflects how little choice people actually have. Residential housing has dramatically expanded, public services have been rationalised and the transport connecting them has barely kept up. There are so many issues that I want to raise today, but in the interest of time, I'm going to restrict myself to just three, the first of which is the ongoing daily nightmare that is junction three of the M3 and the A322 at the aforementioned Lightwater, and anyone tuning in to our morning traffic report on BBC radio two or LBC will be all too familiar with the name of Lightwater.

It features with depressing regularity the A322, for those of you who don't know, provides a vital link between Bracknell and Guildford. Businesses and commuters depend on it, and when junction three seizes up, the costs are felt across the entire corridor. People are late for work, deliveries are delayed, engines idle, polluting the air and wasting fuel. Productive time disappears in queues. The corridor connects two major centres of employment, yet we seem remarkably willing to accept its regular failure as an unavoidable fact of life.

Then there are the consequences for the villages around it. Drivers divert through neighbouring communities, roads outside people's homes become rat runs. Residents describe speeding, dangerous manoeuvres and the difficulty of crossing the road. These are things that I know are not unique to Surrey Heath, but there have been serious accidents, including fatal ones, and they are. There are continuing concerns about safety. This is an issue that Surrey County Council has neglected for years on highways funding, though it has long raised a legitimate concern.

Surrey carries significant through traffic, much of it originating outside of the county. Yet road maintenance funding has historically been based on road length and physical assets, rather than how heavily those roads are actually used. Now, it's reasonable to ask whether a county carrying such an enormous volume of traffic receives a fair allocation to maintain its roads, and I join Surrey County Council in asking that question. But the problems at junction three and the A322 go well beyond routine maintenance.

Years of inadequate investment have left a problem too large for a local roads authority to resolve from its own resources. The A322 is a strategically important economic corridor, bound up with one of the busiest parts of our motorway network. So I hope the Minister will resist the temptation to tell me that the A322 is simply a local problem requiring a local solution. I see him shaking his head and I'm encouraged by that visual sign. We already know.

We already know who maintains it, but it's the way the A322 interacts with the M3 that it's at the heart of the problem, and Surrey County Council and National Highways cannot tackle this challenge between themselves. It will require, I think, the government to step in to help broker a solution. Now. In March last year, Ministers confirmed that National Highways had completed an initial study of junction three and was progressing a further feasibility work on both short term improvements and larger scale interventions.

That work was intended to shape investment decisions under the now published Third Road Investment Strategy, and I would welcome an update on what has happened to that work and what prospect there is for securing funding for improvements that are needed. My first request for the department, though, is to bring National Highways, Surrey County Council, the incoming West Surrey County Council, Surrey West, Surrey West, Surrey Council, Bracknell Forest Council and any other interested local stakeholder, plus Surrey Police together for an urgent strategic review of the whole corridor.

That review must examine the economic costs of congestion, road safety, the consequences for residential communities and the demands of future development. I hope it would also identify practical improvements that can be delivered quickly, alongside properly costed proposals for larger works. Residents have campaigned for improvements to this junction for decades. Indeed, my predecessor MP Michael Gove, now a local now a noble Lord, clearly recognised its importance, having spent many years being photographed beside it. But the people of Lightwater have had enough of photo opportunities, and they've certainly had enough of me standing beside that same junction.

 Instead, they want investment. They deserve to know what can be done, what it will cost and when decisions might be made. The second point I want to raise is the current and future interactions of new housing targets and public infrastructure. That brings me to rail connectivity in Surrey Heath Camberley, which is our principal market town only 30 miles from central London, is considered to be at the heart of the Home Counties commuter belt. And yet there are only two direct morning trains to Waterloo, each taking 73 minutes.

Every other service requires at least one change from Farnborough. Waterloo can be reached in only 37 minutes and from Woking not too far away in just 27. Even Winchester has trains that reach London in under an hour, despite being double the distance from London Waterloo. Little wonder so many residents begin their rail journeys by driving further away from their nearest train station. Now, after two years of pressing South Western Railway, I recently received the Wessex Suburban Journey Time Study, which is a thrilling and exciting read and I recommend it to all who are present and it suggests potential time savings of just six minutes from Camberley, seven from Bagshot and nine from Frimley.

Yet passengers would depart later and arrive at Waterloo at precisely the same time. Under those new plans, we need that study developed into costed options for a faster direct services, including the infrastructure investment required to make a meaningful difference. Now rail is only one part of the picture. Buses are another. When I asked my local residents about the issues they would like me to raise today, the frequency, reliability and extent of bus services was near the top of their list.

They want reliable buses that genuinely serve their communities, which connect them to other transport nodes like local railway stations, but which are also timed so that they can fit into, for example, the lived reality of the school day, rather than a transport planner's interpretation of it. When bus services can't be trusted or simply don't fit into people's lives, they invariably turn to their cars, adding to congestion and to the troubles in our local road network, undermining then the economic case for the bus services that remain.

 That is not a desirable position to be in now. Those pressures will only grow if new housing is not matched by better transport. The government's revised housing methodology has more than doubled Surrey Heath annual housing requirement, and I understand why we need to build. Young people want to live near their families and businesses need workers who can afford to live locally, and I'm not opposed to development at all in principle. But what concerns me is the lack of matching ambition for the infrastructure.

Those homes will depend upon the still ongoing development. For example, at Minton Hurst, an extension of the village of Deepcut is a case in point. Based on the old army barracks, Minton Hurst as a development of 1200 properties with a new school, pub, sports facilities, refurbished church and local shops and amenities. It's genuinely an example of development. I think done well. There's much to commend it in terms of design and the quality of its implementation, but it has invariably had a very significant impact on the transport infrastructure beyond the confines of its own site, adding significant additional traffic to an already challenged and congested road network.

Now there are proposals for another 950 houses in nearby Normandy, which will compound those impacts at the moment. Today, these schemes are assessed separately in planning terms, but their residents and future residents use the same roads and junctions. Section 106 agreements and still money from developers, of course, have an important part to play in upgrading transport infrastructure. But the money only knocks the roughest edges off the impact that a single development will have. It's a sticking plaster for an infrastructural patient that increasingly requires major surgery.

Even if you added together every section 106 agreement and every pound of CIL money, it still couldn't address decades of underinvestment in transport infrastructure. That requires serious public investment and strategic planning at both regional and national level. It's also why the government must be careful when implementing its new housing requirements, because in many places, our infrastructure is already years behind, if not decades behind, where it needs to be now. Yet we're planning substantial new developments, including in areas with limited public transport, where many additional journeys will inevitably be made by car.

The pressures that that creates will be significant, and I worry what that means for public confidence in development itself. Residents see another planning application and ask a simple question how will the roads, the schools and the buses cope? Even those who recognise the need for new homes can become frustrated when the supporting infrastructure always seems to be promised for tomorrow rather than delivered today. I hear that repeatedly in Surrey Heath, and I suspect many across this house hear the same.

 That is why buses and housing growth must be planned together. We need to be more ambitious and more co-ordinated in planning for growth. At a time when Surrey is undergoing local government reorganisation, we lack both a Local plan and the broader spatial strategy that opens our communities up to speculative development, where Surrey Council will begin operating next year in April. That creates an opportunity to plan across a wider area. However, it will also inherit a significant debt and cannot reasonably be expected to shoulder the investment burden alone.

So my second request, therefore, today is for the Minister to work with the incoming council. National highways, rail and bus operators, schools to develop a shared infrastructure delivery plan. Above all, residents deserve clarity. They should be able to see who is responsible, where the funding will come from and when improvements may be delivered, and where strategic infrastructure lies beyond the means of local authorities. There must be a meaningful role for central government in funding it and helping to coordinate it.

And finally, I want to turn to Frimley Park Hospital, which is an issue I have raised in this chamber before, and not always with the utmost of success. I strongly support a new modern hospital to replace buildings affected by RAC concrete. However, I do have serious reservations about the hospital trusts preferred site at Frimley Fuel Allotments, particularly in terms of access for patients, staff and ambulances, and that's a concern shared by local residents. The South East Ambulance Service, the Blood Transfusion Service and even clinicians at the hospital itself.

The surrounding roads already serve six schools, and residents and school leaders have jointly raised concerns about the proposal. The area is constrained by single lane bridges, difficult access routes and limited public transport. When you add ambulance movements, shift changes, outpatient appointments and years of construction traffic, it's entirely reasonable to ask whether the local road network can cope before any final decision is made. On that site selection, we need a clear and convincing evidence that access can be maintained safely and reliably, particularly at the busiest times of day when school pupils are in schools.

Now, last year, health officials advised me that the necessary transport works had not at that point been either fully costed or budgeted for and might in fact end up, depending on the new hospital programme's contingency fund to receive the funding that they needed. And I find that deeply troubling, because I think we know what contingency funds are for. Therefore unforeseen consequences that happen during the building process, not for things that can be entirely foreseen at the start of it.

So surely the cost and practicality of getting people to a hospital are fundamental considerations in deciding where to build it. So my third request to the Minister, and I recognise, is that this may ask him to stray beyond his particular brief in the Department of Transport, but it's to work with health colleagues to secure a fully costed and funded hospital access plan before any planning permission is submitted or indeed potentially ultimately questioned, and that must cover ambulance access, public transport, parking, the effects on schools and residential roads and construction traffic.

I also want to know what happens if satisfactory access cannot, in the end, be delivered. In that case, the location, the location of the hospital, the proposed location itself must surely be reconsidered. The trust's public engagement exercise, recently closed for the new hospital, has left many residents with the impression that the most important question of all the hospital's location had effectively been decided before they were even consulted. I don't think that's the position that we should end up being in.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker in Whitehall, these three issues that I've raised today may look like separate matters a motorway junction, railway timetables, buses, new housing and a hospital for people in Surrey Heath. They're part of the same working week and the same struggle to get around. The government wants more homes and a more productive economy, and so do I. But we need to get much better at coordinating the investment that makes both possible. I hope the Minister will respond to my three requests.

An urgent strategic view of junction three and the A322 corridor with National Highways fully involved. A shared infrastructure delivery plan for West Surrey, backed by proper government funding and government coordination, and a fully costed and funded hospital access plan before any planning application. And for each, I would welcome a clear indication of who will take responsibility, what happens next and where we can expect progress. As I said right at the start, Surrey Heath looks well connected on a map.

My constituents ought to be able to feel that connection when they leave their front doors in their morning, and when they return at the end of a hard working day. I thank the Minister for his time and attention.
15:00
Justin Madders Portrait Justin Madders MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)
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Minister Justin Madders. >> Minister Justin Madders. Minister. Are we ready? Fantastic, Minister. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I first of all congratulate the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate on a packed Friday afternoon here in the chamber, but I don't think the attendance is any reflection of the passion and dedication he has shown to this particular issue. And as we know, he has been a remarkably consistent campaigner on these issues in this constituency since his election. So he has raised a number of issues, the first of which was the A322 M3 junction three. And as he quite rightly pointed out, our strategic road network is one of the most vital pieces of infrastructure. Our motorways and major a-roads form the backbone of connectivity across England. It links our towns and cities, our ports and airports and is relied upon by millions of people and businesses every day. And the hon. Member spoke very clearly about the frustration some of his constituents feel about the congestion. I note the hon. Gentleman's commitment to trying to resolve this issue, not only in securing this debate, but through his wider engagement with national highways and government on this matter. He is clearly a very strong advocate for his constituents, businesses and local road users, and indeed noted that many of the local road users may not, in fact, be his constituents. He will know that in March 2026, this government published the Third Road Investment Strategy, which produced £27 billion in funding to improve the strategic road network, including almost £25 billion to operate and maintain, renew and enhance it. Alongside a set of new national programmes focussed on safety, the environment, congestion and growth. As part of that, National Highways is considering M3 junction three and the link with the A322 through to Small Schemes National programme, with the focus, as the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear, on addressing the congestion issues there. So I won't raise expectations by committing to a timetable today, but I have been assured that the scheme is being considered alongside a number of others, and that work progresses on that. And as that work continues, National Highways will engage with local stakeholders, including the hon. Member, to fully understand the issues and consider potential mitigations. So I'm sure that that will be something that the hon. Gentleman will be able to return to on a number of occasions. Hon. Member also raised the question of speeding on local roads. But as he will know, local speed limits, of course, are set by local traffic authorities who are best placed to understand the needs of their communities and road networks. The department does provide guidance through the Setting Local speed limit framework to support authorities in making evidence based decisions that reflect local circumstances. He will know the government is committed to improving road safety and supports local authorities in taking appropriate action. Where there are concerns about road risk, decisions on speed limits and wider road safety, interventions should be based on local evidence and the characteristics of the road. The department is currently updating the Setting Local Speed Limits guidance following publication of the Road Safety strategy, and this work will continue to support local authorities in making informed and evidence led speed management decisions. I'll turn now to the issue of railways. We are, of course, spending over £10 billion over the next four years to improve the network from upgrading the TransPennine route to progressing the next stage of East West Rail, delivering high impact improvements for communities and passengers. The Railways Bill will create British Great British Railways, a new publicly owned company which will be responsible for managing most of the tracks and trains used by customers every day. The bill places passengers back at the heart of the railway, provides the framework to ensure a robust, high quality offer for passengers to instil confidence in our railways and attract more people to use them. With a powerful passenger watchdog established by the Bill. Advocate for passengers at every turn. GBR will take responsibility for the day to day operational running of the railways, from delivering services to setting timetables, managing access to the network and operating, maintaining and renewing infrastructure. This simplified railway will encourage more rail freight, with two strategy duties included in the Bill to ensure support for this, helping reduce congestion on our roads and make rail a greener, more attractive choice. GBR will also support local growth, create jobs and improve connectivity. And of course, the hon. Member did mention the issue of connectivity for his constituents and the fact that there is currently no direct route from Camberley to London Waterloo via the South Western Main Line. Most passengers, I understand, must therefore change Ash Vale or Ascot and absolutely recognise the strength of local campaigning to restore that connection. Surrey County Council's 2016 Camberley Rail Assessment examined two options for providing direct services, from the Frimley Line to Waterloo. Both envisaged two trains an hour calling at Brookwood and Woking before running fast to Waterloo and cutting journeys towards London by almost 20 minutes. I have to be candid with the hon. Gentleman about the constraints we face. Reinstating this line would be extremely costly and the present timetable infrastructure cannot reliably accommodate two additional trains into Waterloo, replacing existing mainline services with Camberley services would reduce provision elsewhere, increase pressure on alternatives and of course, be extremely expensive. But there is some practical progress. I know it won't be all that the hon. Member wants, but there is an accessibility scheme at Ashfield that is now funded for delivery, and although that station does fall outside his constituency, new lifts will make interchange easier for residents at Camberley and Surrey Heath and Strangford. Ashfield role as a local transport hub. I also understand South Western Railway is developing a refreshed timetable to improve reliability and resilience, and make better use of the new arterial fleet, which reflects how passengers travel today. Their priority will be a dependable service while taking account of customer demand, high capacity trains and changes to the network. So moving on now, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the issue of Frimley Park Hospital, I know the hon. Member has spoken on this a number of times, and he's right to raise these important questions on behalf of his constituents, and I agree with him that as these plans are brought forward, the importance of ensuring local people, staff as well, of course, are able to access the new facilities easily, and he will know that these access questions will be considered through the planning, consultations and application process run by the council. I will take the concerns he has raised regarding funding for some of the access issues that he's mentioned today. Back to the Department for Health and Social Care to see if we can get some clarity on that. But he will know that planning applications are best dealt with by the local authority. And on the question of the local authority, he, of course, will be cognisant of the fact that Surrey is now moving to two unitary authorities from April of next year, which will, we firmly believe, bring greater opportunities for transport and economic planning to be brought closer together in the holistic and sensible way? I think the hon. Member would like. Government is also working with local partners towards establishing a strategic authority for Surrey, which should enhance that even further. I'm sure the hon. Gentleman will work with local authorities through that process to support the benefits of devolution, and of course, we will work with him and local stakeholders to ensure that his concerns are raised. He finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, raised the issue of bus services, and of course, that is an important part of the transport network. And I think the new Prime Minister's commitment to buses is well documented and actually evidenced from his early actions. The Bus Services Act as well, of course, gives greater freedom to local authorities and how they deliver bus services, making it easier for them to actually consider bus franchising. We also, as a department, can provide significant grant funding to the local authority area for Surrey County Council of £33 million in the years 2026 to 2029. So we are absolutely clear that a integrated and reliable bus service is a hugely important part of the transport infrastructure. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to conclude by thanking the hon. Gentleman for bringing this debate and for his continued advocacy on behalf of his constituency.

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And the question is that this House do now adjourn, as many of that opinion say. I.

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I. I may say aye. The ayes have it.
This debate has concluded
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