Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That the debates on the motions in the names of Baroness Massey of Darwen and Lord Robertson of Port Ellen set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours.

Motion agreed.

Clerk of the Parliaments

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, I wish all noble Lords a very happy new year. We have a busy one ahead.

I informed the House on 1 November of David Beamish’s intention to retire from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments with effect from 15 April 2017. The recruitment process for David’s successor as Clerk of the Parliaments, as well as any vacancies arising consequentially in the posts of Clerk Assistant and Reading Clerk, has now concluded.

There were six applicants, all of whom were interviewed by a board consisting of myself, the Lord Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Liberal Democrats, the Convenor of the Cross-Bench Peers and Dame Janet Paraskeva, a former First Civil Service Commissioner. The unanimous recommendation of the board is that Ed Ollard should succeed David Beamish as Clerk of the Parliaments. I am sure that all noble Lords will join me in congratulating Ed on his appointment. We will have an opportunity to pay tribute to David Beamish’s career in the House nearer the point of his retirement. In the meantime, on behalf of all noble Lords, I congratulate him on being made a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath in the recent New Year Honours.

With Ed’s appointment, the post of Clerk Assistant will fall vacant. The board unanimously recommended that Simon Burton should succeed Ed as Clerk Assistant. Simon’s appointment also means that the post of Reading Clerk will fall vacant—we had a busy day. The board unanimously recommended that Jake Vaughan should succeed Simon as Reading Clerk. The Lord Speaker will move Motions to appoint both Simon and Jake to those posts at the appropriate time.

European Council: December 2016

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on last week’s European Council. Both the UK and the rest of the EU are preparing for the negotiations that will begin when we trigger Article 50 before the end of March next year but the main focus of this Council was, rightly, on how we can work together to address some of the most pressing challenges that we face. These include responding to the migration crisis, strengthening Europe’s security and helping to alleviate the suffering in Syria. As I have said, for as long as the UK is a member of the EU we will continue to play our full part. That is what this Council showed, with the UK making a significant contribution on each of these issues.

First, on migration, from the outset the UK pushed for a comprehensive approach that focuses on the root causes of migration as the best way to reduce the number of people coming to Europe. I called for more action in source and transit countries to disrupt the smuggling networks, to improve local capacity to control borders, and to support sustainable livelihoods both for people living there and for refugees. I also said that we must better distinguish between economic migrants and refugees, swiftly returning those with no right to remain and thereby sending out a deterrence message to others thinking of embarking on perilous journeys.

The Council agreed to action in all these areas, and the UK remains fully committed to playing our part. We have already provided training to the Libyan coast-guard. The Royal Navy is providing practical support in the Mediterranean and Aegean. We will also deploy 40 additional specialist staff to the Greek islands to accelerate the processing of claims, particularly from Iraqi, Afghan and Eritrean nationals, and to help return those who have no right to stay. Ultimately, we need a long-term, sustainable approach. That is the best way to retain the consent of our people to provide support and sanctuary to those most in need.

Turning to security and defence, whether it is deterring Russian aggression, countering terrorism or fighting organised crime, the UK remains firmly committed to the security of our European neighbours. That is true now and it will remain true once we have left the EU. At this Council, we welcomed the commitment from all member states to take greater responsibility for their security, to invest more resources and to develop more capabilities. That is the right approach and, as the Council made clear, it should be done in a way that complements rather than duplicates NATO. A stronger EU and a stronger NATO can be mutually reinforcing, and this should be our aim. We must never lose sight of the fact that NATO will always be the bedrock of our collective defence in Europe, and we must never allow anything to undermine it. We also agreed at the Council to renew tier 3 economic sanctions on Russia for another six months, maintaining the pressure on Russia to implement the Minsk agreements in full.

Turning to the appalling situation in Syria, we have all seen the devastating pictures on our TV screens and heard heartbreaking stories of families struggling to get to safety. At this Council, we heard directly from the Mayor of Eastern Aleppo, a brave and courageous man who has already witnessed his city brought to rubble, his neighbours murdered and children’s lives destroyed. He had one simple plea for us: to get those who have survived through years of conflict, torture and fear to safety. Together with our European partners, we must do all we can to help.

The Council was unequivocal in its condemnation of President Assad and his backers, Russia and Iran, who must bear the responsibility for the tragedy in Aleppo. They must now allow the UN to evacuate safely the innocent people of Aleppo—Syrians whom President Assad claims to represent. We have seen some progress in recent days, but a few busloads is not enough when there are thousands more who must be rescued, and we cannot have these buses attacked in the way that we have seen. On Thursday afternoon, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary summoned the Russian and Iranian ambassadors to make it clear that we expect them to help. Over the weekend, the UK has been working with our international partners to secure agreement on a UN Security Council resolution that would send in UN officials to monitor the evacuation of civilians and provide unfettered humanitarian access. This has been agreed unanimously this afternoon, and we now need it to be implemented in full.

President Assad may be congratulating his regime forces on their actions in Aleppo, but we are in no doubt that this is no victory: it is a tragedy, and one that we will not forget. Last week’s Council reiterated that those responsible must be held to account. Alongside our diplomatic efforts, the UK is going to provide a further £20 million of practical support for those who are most vulnerable. This includes £10 million for trusted humanitarian partners working on the front line in some of the hardest to reach places in Syria, to help them deliver food parcels and medical supplies to those most in need, and an additional £100 million to UNICEF to help it provide life-saving aid supplies for the Syrian refugees now massing at the Jordanian border. As the mayor of Eastern Aleppo has said, it is sadly too late to save all those who have been lost, but it is not too late to save those who remain. That is what we must do now.

Turning to Brexit, I updated the Council on the UK’s plans for leaving the European Union. I explained that, two weeks ago, this House voted by a considerable majority—almost six to one—to support the Government by delivering the referendum result and invoking Article 50 before the end of March. The UK’s Supreme Court is expected to rule next month on whether the Government require parliamentary legislation in order to do this. I am clear that the Government will respect the verdict of our independent judiciary, but I am equally clear that, whichever way the judgment goes, we will meet the timetable I have set out.

At the Council, I also reaffirmed my commitment to a smooth and orderly exit. In this spirit, I made it clear to the other EU leaders that it remains my objective that we give reassurance early on in the negotiations to EU citizens who live in the UK, and UK citizens living in EU countries, that their right to stay where they have made their homes will be protected by our withdrawal. This is an issue which I would like to agree quickly but that clearly requires the agreement of the rest of the EU.

Finally, I welcomed the subsequent short discussion between the 27 other leaders on their plans for the UK’s withdrawal. It is right that the other leaders prepare for the negotiations, just as we are making our own preparations. That is in everyone’s best interests.

My aim is to cement the UK as a close partner of the EU once we have left. As I have said before, I want the deal we negotiate to reflect the kind of mature, co-operative relationship that close friends and allies enjoy: a deal that will give our companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate in the European market, and allow European businesses to do the same here; a deal that will deliver the deepest possible co-operation to ensure our national security and the security of our allies; but a deal that will mean when it comes to decisions about our national interest, such as how we control immigration, we can make these decisions for ourselves—and a deal that will mean our laws are once again made in Britain, not in Brussels. With a calm and measured approach, this Government will honour the will of the British people and secure the right deal that will make a success of Brexit for the UK, for the EU and for the world. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, in the spirit of Christmas, I do not intend to dwell on the Brexit-related issues raised in this Statement. It would be wholly against those core British public service values of tolerance and respect for others to inquire at this festive season about the many and various splits in the Cabinet on all the relevant Brexit issues.

The overarching question which strikes me from a perusal of the agenda of this Council relates to the importance of the subject matter. The agenda included migration, security, economic and social development in respect of young people, Cyprus, Ukraine and Syria. These are some of the biggest issues facing the continent in our time, and it is vital that they are considered—as happened—by Europe as a whole in the Council. If Britain leaves the EU, we will not be at those Council meeting discussions. Have the Government given any thought as to how our vital national interest in key foreign policy issues such as this will be addressed if we are outside the EU? How will the British voice be heard when the rest of Europe considers these huge issues?

Of the issues discussed, arguably the two most important, in the short term at least, were migration and Syria. On migration, the Council statement said:

“Member States should further intensify their efforts to accelerate relocation, in particular for unaccompanied minors, and existing resettlement schemes”.

We welcome the Statement by the Government following this up to the effect that,

“we will also deploy 40 additional specialist staff to the Greek islands to accelerate the processing of claims, particularly from Iraqi, Afghan and Eritrean nationals, and to help return those who have no right to stay”.

It says a lot about the Prime Minister that she concentrates on those we are rejecting, not those we are accepting, and that she says nothing about what is happening in terms of the Government’s commitment to accept unaccompanied minors and others from the region. Could the noble Baroness the Leader update us on the position in respect of unaccompanied minors? What is being done following the dispersal of the Calais camps to identify such people in camps elsewhere in France which hold children who we might accept and to bring them to the UK under either the Dublin or Dubs criteria? What are we doing in Greece to identify unaccompanied minors who equally might expect to come to the UK?

The Government have justified their unwillingness to accept a single adult refugee from mainland Europe on the grounds that they would accept 20,000 Syrian refugees directly from the region over the course of this Parliament. Could the noble Baroness the Leader tell us how many have currently been accepted? The last time the Minister gave an answer at the Dispatch Box, we were accepting people at about half the rate needed to reach the 20,000 target. Has that rate increased in recent weeks, and if not, what plans do the Government have to rectify this shortfall?

On Syria, we welcome the additional £20 million expenditure. Is the Leader able to say how this fits into the overall European response and whether such figures are being matched by our principal European partners? The Prime Minister, in her Statement, referred to the meeting which the Foreign Secretary had with the Russian and Iranian ambassadors last week. What do the Government plan to do to maintain pressure on Russia and Iran to prevent any further indiscriminate violence against civilians as the evacuation of east Aleppo continues? Will the Foreign Secretary make sure that he remains in close touch not just with those two ambassadors but with other ambassadors in the region so that we can have direct and continuing input and pressure to ensure that the position in east Aleppo is resolved as smoothly—if such a word is appropriate—as possible?

Finally, the EU Council reiterated its support for the principle that,

“Those responsible for breaches of international law, some of which may amount to war crimes, must be held accountable”.

This can only happen if enough compelling evidence is collected. What steps are the Government taking, including financially, to encourage the collection of such evidence?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, first, before I answer those questions, I apologise, because I suggested that the Government had committed £100 million to UNICEF. That would be extremely generous of us, but I am afraid it is only £10 million. It is still obviously an important contribution, but I wanted to put that on record and apologise for getting the wrong figure.

As for the questions the noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked me, we remain a full member of the EU with all associated rights and responsibilities. We will continue to honour our commitments while we are a member of the EU, and this extends to the areas of security, law enforcement and criminal justice co-operation. As part of the negotiations, we will of course discuss with the EU and other member states how best to continue that co-operation. It is vital that we do so. That is a key issue that we are concerned about.

On the issue of Syria, which both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness referred to, the Council made clear what needs to happen next in relation to Aleppo: we want to see safe evacuations from the city; full and immediate UN access to provide aid and ensure civilian protection; genuine protection for medical personnel and facilities; and respect from all the actors for international humanitarian law.

There was further discussion at the EU Council that made clear that we are continuing to consider all options available to hold countries accountable for their actions in Syria. We are of course very pleased to see the UN resolution passed today. The noble Lord asked about the other forums in which we will continue to play an international role. We will continue to do so through organisations such as the UN, NATO and others, and indeed we played an important role today in helping to ensure that that resolution was passed. Along with our allies, we will be making very sure that all parties fully comply with that resolution.

The noble Baroness asked about the publication of the Brexit plan. As we have said, we will publish it by the time we trigger Article 50. I also thank the EU committees, as she did, for their work, and I reassure her that we will ensure that ample time is provided to debate those reports in the new year, and that Parliament has a proper opportunity to scrutinise and discuss these important issues.

The noble Lord asked about the Calais camp resettlement. Since 10 October, we have transferred more than 750 unaccompanied minors to the UK, including approximately 200 children who meet the criteria for Section 67 of the Immigration Act. In the coming months, we anticipate that more eligible children will be transferred from Europe, including France, under both the Act and the Dublin regulations. I will have to write to him with more detail on the situation in Greece, as I am afraid I do not have those figures to hand.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

I suspect that that was completely out of order.

I personally would like to see a free trade agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union with no strings attached. However, I fear that that is unattainable; even if the EU were to agree with it at government level, the European Parliament certainly would not. However, we have nothing to fear about a World Trade Organization fallback. Is my noble friend aware that we do the bulk of our trade with the rest of the world on WTO terms, far more than we do with the EU, and that that amount of trade with the rest of the world is growing faster than our trade with the EU?

Lastly, speaking as a British citizen living in France, I urge the Government to reconsider the matter of the EU citizens legally resident here and to give an unconditional guarantee that they will stay, seize the moral high ground and not try to make them some kind of bargaining counter.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for his questions. As the Prime Minister made clear, her objective remains that we indeed give early reassurance in negotiations to EU citizens who live in the UK, and to UK citizens living in EU countries. She has made it very clear that we would like that to be discussed very early on. Our intention is clear, but we will need other European leaders to match our commitment. In terms of the negotiation itself, what we want is a strong Britain working with a strong EU. We want a deal that works both for Britain and for the EU.

[Lord Kinnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I concur, probably for the first time in my life, with the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, and say to the Minister that it would be bad politics and even worse ethics to try to treat citizens of the EU resident in the United Kingdom as bargaining chips in the forthcoming negotiations, and that it would be wise to take what he called the moral high ground by making an early announcement on our intentions as far as they are concerned. In response to her updating of the Council on recent developments in the United Kingdom on Article 50, did the Prime Minister receive any information from the President of France, the Chancellor of Germany and the Prime Minister of the Netherlands about their forthcoming general elections in 2017? Did they advise her that their attention is likely to be focused on domestic issues rather than Brexit and that, consequently, it might be ill advised to notify our intention under Article 50 early in 2017, rather than some months into a year in which other countries of great significance in our negotiations will not be paying much attention?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, the Prime Minister made very clear our wish in relation to EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU, and she raised that specifically during discussions. Obviously, we want to have a mature and co-operative relationship with the EU, and one would assume that that will reflect that. As I mentioned, she also made it clear that we will be triggering Article 50 before the end of March; all EU leaders are well aware of that.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, the Statement contained the usual vague statements about disrupting smugglers and traffickers. Can the noble Baroness the Leader tell us how many such people have been arrested or prosecuted in any of the relevant jurisdictions? Does she agree that Turkey is no longer a safe country to which to return refugees from either Greece or Bulgaria? Why are Turkish forces occupying a considerable part of northern Syria? Tunisia is another important country from the migration angle. Were any decisions taken by the Council to speed up productive investment to increase the number of jobs available there? Will any help be given to Tunisia to assess who is a refugee and who is an economic migrant?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I mentioned in the Statement, we have been working hard to try to ensure that we disrupt smuggling. That is why we have been fulfilling our obligations as part of Operation Sophia to provide assistance to people in distress, respond to those in need and tackle the callous smugglers. Our Royal Navy and border forces have rescued more than 26,000 migrants.

On the noble Lord’s points about Turkey, we share concerns about the direction that Turkey has taken and are actively raising them with the Government. But, as the recent terrible terrorist attack in Istanbul has shown, Turkey is facing serious threats and we want to maintain a robust private dialogue and press Turkey to ensure that it understands the importance of its actions being measured, in line with its international obligations. I will have to write to the noble Lord on his question about Tunisia.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the latest buzzword—or perhaps it is a buzz acronym—appears to be Smexit, which stands for the smooth and orderly Brexit which the Statement told us is the Government’s aim. Can the Leader of the House tell us whether this aim means that the Government are in fact united in wishing to see a transitional deal?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can tell the noble Baroness that we are united on delivering the best deal for this country.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that the Government accept the OBR’s figure, which is that each week’s delay in leaving the European Union costs British taxpayers more than £250 million? Therefore, will she ignore those who argue that we should delay beginning the Article 50 process?

On the subject of those European citizens who are currently living in Britain, will she reject the appalling tactics by the President of the Commission who seeks to turn it into some bargaining position? As these families gather for Christmas, would it not be right for the Government to make it clear that they will be able to stay here and continue to work and make a contribution to this country? Surely that makes sense. If the Government believe that it is a bargaining position, how on earth will they be able to exercise the rejection of these people from our country, which would carry no support in any corner of this House?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I hope I have made it clear that the Prime Minister has been very clear that her objective remains wanting to give reassurance. We have made our intentions clear and we need other European leaders to match our commitment. My noble friend is absolutely right that we need to provide certainty where we can, which is why the Prime Minister has once again reiterated to our European partners that we will be triggering Article 50 before the end of March.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I regret that I am not suffused with the Christmas spirit to the same extent as my noble friend Lord Newby. While I am totally in favour of mature and co-operative relationships, when may we expect one such from the Cabinet? There is much concern about the uncertainty caused by our decision to move towards activating Article 50, so how is that uncertainty to be removed if Members of the Cabinet are consistently at odds with each other as to what the Government’s objectives really are?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, I think I have been very clear. Our objectives are extremely clear: to deliver the best deal for the British people.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Is not the reality that there should be discussion in Cabinet about these very serious issues? What actually matters is that we come to a clear conclusion at the end of it, and I do not expect it to be rushed in five minutes, although I certainly endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, said. I saw a German Minister quoted as saying that Germany would not be able to concentrate on these negotiations until after the German election, which is a singularly unhelpful thought.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Perhaps I can further reiterate on the deal that we want. We want to give companies the maximum freedom to trade with and co-operate in the European market and allow European businesses to do the same. We want to deliver the deepest possible co-operation to ensure our national security and the security of our allies. We want to ensure that we are a fully independent sovereign state and therefore able to make decisions of our own, such as how best to control immigration, and we want to make sure our laws are once again made in Britain. All members of the Cabinet agree on those issues.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Is the noble Baroness aware that war crimes of the gravest calibre are still being perpetrated against the civilian population in Syria by Russia, Iran and by the Government of Assad? Can she assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government have used their good offices to the fullest possible extent to gather evidence while it is still available and fresh so that these people can indeed be brought to justice in adequate time?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. We are deeply concerned by reports that the regime forces and their supporters are carrying out summary executions, including of women and children, and that hundreds of men have disappeared on leaving eastern Aleppo and entering regime-held areas. That is why we are very pleased that the UN Security Council has adopted a resolution today which demands full access across Syria and particularly requests that the UN monitors evacuations from eastern Aleppo. We are doing all we can to ensure that all parties fully comply with that resolution and to make sure that if crimes have been committed the perpetrators are indeed punished.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has said that the objective is that our laws should be made in Britain and not in Brussels. That is manifestly correct. However, does she also accept that that means that the final terms, when they are known, should be subject to parliamentary ratification in this House and in the House of Commons, and if Parliament so decides, it would be perfectly democratic to hold another referendum on the known and agreed terms?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We have been very clear that we are implementing the will of 17.4 million people in delivering a referendum and now organising our withdrawal from the EU. We will, of course, comply with all constitutional and legal obligations that apply to the deal we negotiate with the EU.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 12 December to enable the Small Charitable Donations and Childcare Payments Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That the debate on the motion in the name of Lord Sterling of Plaistow set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts to two hours.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Leader of the House seen the very damaging publicity to the credibility of the House of Lords arising from the reporting in the national press of the existence of these 59 additional amendments? Is not the Leader of the House and her team rather worried about this? Would it not be wise if she were to prevail on those tabling the amendments to withdraw them to attempt to save the credibility of this institution?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord graciously said, these amendments were tabled within the tabling deadline. I am afraid I do not have anything further that I can add, but I am sure there will be an interesting debate tomorrow during the course of the Bill.

Motion agreed.

Judicial Independence

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Cross Benches.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

Does the Minister agree that the real vice and mischief of misconceived attacks on the integrity and good faith of the judges is not the hurt that it causes the judges—judges are not there to be popular and they tend to develop pretty thick skins—but rather the fact that it undermines the public trust and confidence in the administration of justice, and it is that which damages the rule of law?

Pensions: Tax Relief

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brookman (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrat Benches.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

My Lords, the current system benefits the wealthiest in our society. However, if tax relief were changed to match funding with thresholds aimed at lower savers and, for example, the first £500 was matched by the Government pound for pound, thereafter gradually tapering down, this would demonstrate the benefits of savings as it supports those on lower incomes getting the most. Does the Minister agree that reform to match funding, rather than tax relief, would give a greater incentive to save?

House of Lords: Size

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone for their contributions to the debate and to my noble friend Lord Cormack for securing the opportunity for us to discuss this important matter. Today’s debate has shown that across the House there is a strong desire to ensure that we continue and, indeed, improve the way we perform our critical scrutinising and revising role. What has also come across loud and clear is the concern noble Lords have about the public’s perception and understanding of the work of this House. This evening has reinforced to me that many noble Lords believe that the size of this House presents problems on both counts.

As Leader, I want to be clear at the outset that I have heard the strength of feeling on this issue. I also add that I am strongly of the view that any action we might take on the size of the House must at heart enhance our ability to perform our vital role of revision and scrutiny. Any reform cannot and must not be simply about numbers; it must result in this House working better in fulfilling our role effectively, as well as serving the public at large.

What has been encouraging about today’s debate is that there is a strong desire for us to work constructively together across the House to make progress on this issue. Indeed, I am strongly of the view that that is the only way progress can be made. However, as noble Lords will no doubt expect me to say about a topic that has occupied your Lordships’ House for many, many years, this is not something we will be able to make decisions on immediately and implement reforms overnight.

As noble Lords said earlier, today is not the day for me directly to address the merits and demerits of each and every proposal suggested during this interesting and extremely well-informed debate, but I will of course read Hansard and reflect further on the detail of noble Lords’ contributions. What I will do is set out my approach. In doing so, I remind noble Lords that this is a subject I will consider with two different roles to play.

First, as Leader of the whole House, it is my responsibility to ensure we remain able to perform our role as a scrutinising and revising Chamber as effectively as possible, complementing the work of the elected House, and that any changes we make are consistent with that purpose. It is also my role to listen to the concerns raised by noble Lords across the House and to work to see whether solutions can be found to address them. This debate reflects the fact that one of the most frequent issues noble Lords have raised with me since I have become Leader is concern about the negative public perception of this House, and the view that our size is one of the contributing factors to this. I understand these concerns and agree that we must reflect upon how we can better command public confidence in the excellent work we do.

Secondly, I am also Leader in this House of the Government Benches—a Government elected with a manifesto which acknowledged that size is an issue to be addressed, but also made clear that comprehensive reform is not a priority for this Parliament. As a number of noble Lords have acknowledged, that must be right when there are so many pressing legislative priorities to deliver over this Parliament, not least around the UK’s exit from the EU and our ambitious social reform agenda.

I am sure noble Lords will not be surprised that I will not set out a stall at this stage and propose specific changes. I think that today’s debate has, despite consensus, shown there is further work to do to reach a broad consensus on the precise way forward. However, neither am I suggesting that we should simply set ourselves in aspic. It is right that we collectively seek a solution to address concerns about the size of this House raised today while ensuring we continue to refresh and renew our expertise and our outlook so we remain relevant to the Britain of today and the future. Whatever reforms might be implemented, it is essential that this House continues to be able to draw on the invaluable breadth of expertise and experience of Peers as we do today.

Over the past few years, we have shown what progress can be made when we come together to make this House work more effectively, as a number of noble Lords have mentioned—whether in enabling Members to retire from the House, in legislating so that Members are removed when they do not attend at all or in giving this House the power to expel Members for serious misconduct. These may have been incremental changes, but the sum of their parts has been significant and led to tangible changes in the culture of this House. I know that many noble Lords who have spoken today are impatient for more wide-reaching reform, but we should not underestimate the importance of what has already been achieved and the value of taking steps forward together.

In light of today’s debate, I sense that noble Lords want to bring that same spirit to moving forward. While it will not be possible, either practically or politically, to achieve everything that has been raised this evening, I hope that it will be possible for us to examine and consider what ideas might be able to command support across the House in relation to our size. If, in the light of that consideration, there are ideas or proposals that are able to command broad consensus, I would welcome working with noble Lords, both as Leader of the House and as a member of the Government, to explore taking them forward.

Following today’s constructive debate, we have an opportunity to make progress. It is clear that there is strong feeling across all Benches that the size of the House is an issue of concern and that noble Lords want to continue discussions about how we might address this, although I think it is also fair to say that there is not currently clear agreement on what a solution might be. In further discussions about our size, it will be important that we reflect on the work we do and how we can do it more effectively. As I have said, I am clear that any further reform must enhance our role as a Chamber of scrutiny and revision and that we must continue to be able to draw on a wealth of expertise and experience. I will reflect on the comments made this evening and consider how best to take matters forward. I will of course want to speak with my fellow leaders, the Convenor and the Lord Speaker to consider the best approach.

As I have made clear, if we are to make any progress on this issue, we have to do it together as a House. The way forward will not be instigated, led and imposed by government alone. A number of noble Lords have suggested a Select Committee as their preferred way forward. As the House will know, we have a Liaison Committee which oversees Select Committees and is currently seeking submissions for next year’s ad hoc committees. That may well be a route that some of your Lordships wish to pursue. I would also like to consider whether a more immediate, practical step could be taken in convening a small, Back Bench-led consultative group whose work could be overseen, for instance, by the Lord Speaker. Such a group would be well placed early on to look at pragmatic options for progress on this issue, analyse their implications and identify the important questions that need to be resolved so that we can go further. Obviously, I will discuss this further in light of today’s debate, and I will bear in mind the strong desire that noble Lords have expressed for this to be a process led by Members. As the noble Baroness said, for any proposals for reform to have a chance of success, they will have to command broad consensus around the House.

I have heard the clear call from today’s debate and from the broader discussions that I have had in my time as Leader for a renewed momentum to have constructive discussions about our future on this issue. Although I come to this debate afresh, I am struck by the strength of feeling across the House on the need to try to make progress. I am encouraged that the debate today has set us on our way in a welcome spirit of partnership.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Lord Privy Seal]

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Liddle set down for today shall be limited to 3 hours and that in the name of Baroness Pitkeathley to 2 hours.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for detaining the House as we have some important debates but I wish to raise an issue that has come to my attention this morning and which I think should be brought to the attention of this House.

Noble Lords will recall that, when the noble Baroness the Leader of the House made her Statement on the Government’s intentions regarding the Strathclyde report, it was warmly welcomed by this House; we were grateful for her comments and tone and the way that she has handled this issue. My understanding from that Statement and the debate was that we should abide by all conventions of this House and recognise our role as a second Chamber.

However, this morning—literally five minutes before I came to the Chamber—I found on my desk a report from David Lidington, the Leader of the House of Commons, on Strathclyde. The foreword of that report says:

“Whilst recognising the valuable role of the House of Lords in scrutinising SIs, the Government remains concerned that there is no mechanism for the elected chamber to overturn a decision by the unelected chamber on SIs. We do not believe that it is something that can remain unchanged if the House of Lords seeks to vote against SIs approved by the House of Commons when there is no mechanism for the will of the elected House to prevail. We must, therefore, keep the situation under review and remain prepared to act if the primacy of the Commons is further threatened”.

This is, again, a basic misunderstanding of how statutory instruments operate. This has never been an issue about the primacy of the House of Commons, but the primacy of the Government regarding secondary legislation. SIs come not from the House of Commons to this House, but from the Government to both Houses. They do not have to be considered by the House of Commons first—there is no mechanism to ensure they are considered first by that House. The conventions of this House are clear that, in exceptional circumstances—which I think has been five times since the Second World War—this House may reject a secondary instrument.

I appreciate that there is some difference between the Government’s understanding of SIs and ours, but I did really believe that the Government understood the conventions of this House as enshrined and accepted in the report of my noble friend Lord Cunningham, which was accepted by both Houses unanimously. When the noble Baroness the Leader reported to this House, we welcomed the content and her tone. She said—in an entirely reasonable comment—that,

“The Government are therefore reliant on the discipline and self-regulation that this House imposes upon itself. Should that break down, we would have to reflect on this decision”.—[Official Report, 17/11/16; col. 1539.]

I think that is entirely reasonable. Should the conventions break down, it is entirely reasonable that the Government should look at those conventions and perhaps revert to the Strathclyde review. However, that is a long way from what David Lidington says in his report. I have two questions for the noble Baroness. Do the Government still accept the Cunningham report and the conventions of this House as being the guidance underpinning our work, and to which we should adhere as a self-regulating House? The noble Baroness said in her Statement that, having considered the matter carefully, legislation would not be introduced. As I say, I have not had time to read the report published today in its entirety as I received it literally only five minutes before today’s proceedings in the House commenced. However, it says:

“We must … keep the situation under review and remain prepared to act if the primacy of the Commons is further threatened”.

David Lidington refers to that as being just the Lords seeking to vote against an SI. Does that mean that if somebody tables a fatal Motion, the Government will review the Strathclyde report and will be prepared to act? Or does it mean that if this House ever votes against an SI, legislation will be brought forward under the terms of the Strathclyde report?

I have enormous respect for the tone of the noble Baroness’s Statement and its understanding of this House. My criticism is directed not at all at her or at the Statement; it is directed entirely at what the Government now appear to be saying in David Lidington’s report. I would be very grateful to her if she could answer my questions but the Government need to reflect further on the Lidington report, and whether it should be withdrawn in the light of my comments today.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. I am sorry that she takes the view that she does. All I can say is that the Government of course recognise the conventions of this House. I reiterate what I said last week:

“We recognise the valuable role of the House of Lords in scrutinising SIs, but there is no mechanism for the will of the elected House to prevail when they are considered, as is the case for primary legislation”—

as the noble Baroness said, and I said—

“The Government are therefore reliant on the discipline and self-regulation that this House imposes upon itself … This House has an important role to play in scrutinising and revising legislation, and the Government recognise this”.—[Official Report, 17/11/16; col. 1539.]

Because of the constructive way this House works, we do not believe that we need to introduce primary legislation at this time. What I said last week remains the position of the Government. The tone I used and the constructive debate that we had is exactly what we need to see in this House. I reassure the noble Baroness that my Statement last week stands, as do the thought and intention behind it.

Motion agreed.

Disabled Children: Tax Credit

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Cross Benches.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Low, correct to say that a box was omitted from the form? If a box was omitted that should have been there, it seems to me that the department was at fault and therefore a question of law preventing compensation would not arise.