Salisbury Incident Update

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House on the incident in Salisbury, and the steps we are taking to investigate what happened and to respond to this reckless and despicable act.

Last week, my right honourable friends the Foreign and Home Secretaries set out the details of events as they unfolded on Sunday 4 March. I am sure the whole House will want to once again pay tribute to the bravery and professionalism of our emergency services and Armed Forces in responding to this incident, as well as to the doctors and nurses who are now treating those affected. Our thoughts, in particular, are with Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, who remains in a serious but stable condition. In responding to this incident, he exemplified the duty and courage that define our emergency services and in which our whole nation takes the greatest pride.

I want to pay tribute to the fortitude and calmness with which people in Salisbury have responded to these events, and to thank all those who have come forward to assist the police with their investigation. This incident has, of course, caused considerable concern across the community. Following the discovery of traces of nerve agent in the Zizzi restaurant and the Mill pub, the Chief Medical Officer issued further precautionary advice. But as Public Health England has made clear, the risk to public health is low.

I share the impatience of this House and the country at large to bring those responsible to justice, and to take the full range of appropriate responses against those who would act against our country in this way. But as a nation that believes in justice and the rule of law, it is essential that we proceed in the right way, led not by speculation but by the evidence. That is why we have given the police the space and time to carry out their investigation properly. Hundreds of officers have been working around the clock, together with experts from our Armed Forces, to sift and assess all the available evidence, identify crime scenes and decontamination sites, and follow every possible lead to find those responsible. That investigation continues and we must allow the police to continue with their work.

This morning, I chaired a meeting of the National Security Council in which we considered the information so far available. As is normal, the council was updated on the assessment and intelligence picture, as well as the state of the investigation. It is now clear that Mr Skripal and his daughter were poisoned with a military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia. This is part of a group of nerve agents known as Novichok. Based on the positive identification of this chemical agent by world-leading experts at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, our knowledge that Russia has previously produced this agent and would still be capable of doing so, Russia’s record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations, and our assessment that Russia views some defectors as legitimate targets for assassinations, the Government have concluded that it is highly likely that Russia was responsible for the act against Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

There are therefore only two plausible explanations for what happened in Salisbury on 4 March: either this was a direct act by the Russian state against our country, or the Russian Government lost control of this potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others. This afternoon, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has summoned the Russian ambassador to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. He asked him to explain which of these two possibilities it is, and therefore to account for how this Russian-produced nerve agent could have been deployed in Salisbury against Mr Skripal and his daughter. My right honourable friend has stated to the ambassador that the Russian Federation must immediately provide full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, and he has requested the Russian Government’s response by the end of tomorrow.

This action has happened against a backdrop of a well-established pattern of Russian state aggression. Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea was the first time since the Second World War that one sovereign nation had forcibly taken territory from another in Europe. Russia has fomented conflict in the Donbass, repeatedly violated the national airspace of several European countries and mounted a sustained campaign of cyber espionage and disruption. This has included meddling in elections and hacking the Danish ministry of defence and the Bundestag, among many others.

During his recent state of the union address, President Putin showed video graphics of missile launches, flight trajectories and explosions, including the modelling of attacks on the United States with a series of warheads impacting in Florida, while the extrajudicial killing of terrorists and dissidents outside Russia was given legal sanction by the Russian Parliament in 2006 and, of course, Russia used radiological substances in its barbaric assault on Mr Litvinenko. We saw promises to assist the investigation then, but they resulted in denial and obfuscation and the stifling of due process and the rule of law.

Following Mr Litvinenko’s death we expelled Russian diplomats, suspended security co-operation, broke off bilateral plans on visas, froze the assets of the suspects and put them on international extradition lists, and these measures remain in place. Furthermore, our commitment to collective defence and security through NATO remains as strong as ever in the face of Russian behaviour. Indeed, our Armed Forces have a leading role in NATO’s enhanced forward presence, with British troops leading a multinational battlegroup in Estonia. We have led the way in securing tough sanctions against the Russian economy; we have at all stages worked closely with our allies and we will continue to do so.

We must now stand ready to take much more extensive measures. On Wednesday, we will consider in detail the response from the Russian state. Should there be no credible response, we will conclude that this action amounts to an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom, and I will come back to this House and set out the full range of measures that we will take in response.

This attempted murder using a weapons-grade nerve agent in a British town was not just a crime against the Skripals; it was an indiscriminate and reckless act against the United Kingdom, putting the lives of innocent civilians at risk, and we will not tolerate such a brazen attempt to murder innocent civilians on our soil. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I join the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in echoing the views of the Prime Minister about the bravery of the emergency services. Like her, our thoughts are also with Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, and we wish him a speedy recovery.

Although the emergency services are well rehearsed in dealing with chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear incidents, that is primarily aimed at dealing with terrorist attacks, such as happened on the Tube. This is a very different sort of case and I wonder whether the Government will now consider giving revised guidance to first responders who might find themselves, out of the blue, dealing with a case like this, which at first sight is not necessarily a terrorist attack. In this case the effect on the first responder has clearly been very significant.

The Prime Minister says that there are hundreds of detectives working on the case. Given that police numbers are at their lowest for 30 years, could the Minister explain where these hundreds of detectives have come from? Are she and the Government satisfied that in drawing hundreds of detectives from elsewhere, they have not left unacceptable gaps in those parts from which they have come? When my noble friend Lord Paddick, commenting on this incident last week, asked the Home Office Minister about police resourcing, he was told that the police had the numbers “and more” to do the job they have to do. This flies in the face of the National Police Chiefs Council statement in December that the Budget settlement,

“does not fully meet the level of investment that we identified as necessary”.

I know there is not long to go, but can the Minister have a word with her friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and suggest that, when he makes his Statement this week, he reassures the House and the country that he is making available the level of resource required for the police numbers to be there to do the job they are absolutely required to do.

The Statement explains the steps that were taken after Mr Litvinenko’s death to prevent repetition of such an event. It is very tempting to say simply that they have not been very effective in this case. What is slightly more worrying, however, is that there have been suggestions from US intelligence sources and elsewhere that the UK Government have not been particularly rigorous in implementing those measures because of the levels of investment by Russians in London and elsewhere. I hope the Leader of the House can reassure me that that is not the case.

The Statement goes on to talk about international collaboration against Russian expansionism and unsatisfactory behaviour of various sorts via NATO. Yet the kind of sanctions that we are talking about here are nothing to do with NATO. We are not talking about putting up tanks against the Russian border; we are talking about targeted sanctions against individuals and companies. The way we co-ordinate that is through the EU. That is what we have been discussing with the recent Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill: how on earth we manage to have proper co-ordination going forward. It is rather typical of the attitude of this Government that they talk about NATO, which is almost entirely irrelevant to this incident, but fail to mention at all the EU, which is absolutely germane if we are to get a co-ordinated European response.

The Government say that we must now stand ready to take more extensive measures. I am sure they will have the support of the whole House if they come forward with credible measures to respond to this outrage and potential future threats. But we will be looking very carefully to ensure that any such measures are properly resourced and carried forward with a degree of energy and commitment that has not always and obviously been the case in the past.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. The noble Baroness, rightly, raised the important issue of public safety. I can reassure her that all those who have been in contact with the patients have been contacted by Public Health England, and questions asked about their health status. The latest information was received only on Saturday, and a website was prepared to give the public access to all the relevant information. An announcement was then made early on Sunday. The CMO was confident that nobody who was in the pub or restaurant has come to any immediate harm, and the advice on Sunday does not indicate a change to the existing advice that the risk of harm to the general public is low. However, following new evidence of traces of the substance at the restaurant and pub, and as part of the continuous risk assessment, it was decided to issue additional, highly precautionary advice to a small number of people whose clothes or possessions may have residual traces of the substance, to eliminate future risk.

I will take back the noble Baroness’s suggestion about a helpline, as I do not have an answer on that. I will also write to her in response to her questions about CBRN, as I do not have that information to hand. On defence, I can certainly say that, through the Modernising Defence programme, the Ministry of Defence is assessing the threats to UK security and prosperity, including increasing Russian hostility to the West, and ensuring that our Armed Forces have the right capabilities to deter and respond to these threats.

The noble Baroness also asked about Magnitsky. We already have a range of powers, similar to those in the US Magnitsky Act, which we regularly deploy to protect national security and our financial system. As the Prime Minister herself said in the other place, conversations will continue to see whether there is any further need for legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about front-line responders. I can assure him that the Home Office, working with ether government departments, the devolved Administrations and the emergency services, has co-ordinated the delivery of training to more than 150,000 front-line responders. He also asked about resources. More than 250 counterterrorism police from eight of our 11 counterterror units are now working on this incident. We have the best expertise available in this very difficult situation.

I can also assure the noble Lord that we recognise that some of the factors which make the UK attractive for legitimate business also expose us to the risk of illicit financial flows. Recognising these risks, we have taken a leading role in the global fight against illicit finance. We have robust legal and regulatory frameworks that enable effective investigation and prosecution of money laundering and the recovery of illicit assets. Indeed, this Government have recovered more criminal assets than ever before: £1.4 billion was taken from offenders between April 2010 and March 2017, with many hundreds of millions more frozen.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

As the Health Minister who was responsible in COBRA for the first set of responses to Litvinenko’s assassination, may I ask the Minister what action the Government have taken to learn lessons from that episode, particularly in terms of informing the public within 24 hours, and then on a daily basis, what elements should be of concern to them and how they might deal with them? Those public reassurances were an integral part of that Government’s response to the attack on Litvinenko.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can certainly assure the noble Lord that lessons have been learned. As I hope I set out in my response to the noble Baroness, public safety has been our number one priority. Public Health England has done a lot, and continues to do what it can, to ensure the public are kept abreast of issues and, as developments arise, of any further information they need to know.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

I strongly welcome this Statement. The Prime Minister has been under considerable criticism in recent days for not coming out much earlier with condemnation and an accusation of where this offence has come from. She is absolutely right to say that it must be fully investigated, and this Statement today makes clear the amount of work that has been done to establish what the origin of this incident probably is.

As we go forward in what is now a very dangerous situation, depending on what the response from Russia may be, I hope this whole House will speak with one voice. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, how disappointed I was that he appeared to turn this into an attack on government expenditure policy when there are far bigger issues at stake. I hope very much that we will now stand together in facing this serious threat and the consequences that may flow from it.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. This is of course an extremely serious situation. As the Prime Minister made clear, and as I did in repeating her Statement, we will return to the House as soon as further conversations have been had to make sure that the House is fully updated on these extremely important matters. We need to come together and make sure that we take action to defend this country and keep our citizens safe.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Prime Minister’s Statement and the strong language that she has used in deploring what has taken place. I know she must be basing that on intelligence and information she has received in the last days, which point towards it being “highly likely”—a high standard of proof—that Russia was responsible for these poisonings. We know that, even if this was not the work of Russian agents, there is evidence that Russia frequently outsources some of this kind of activity. Having watched closely the developments around Litvinenko, my concern is that we did not learn the lessons then and put in place a Magnitsky law. I want to challenge the idea that the pieces of law that we have managed to put together from different legislation that has gone through this House in recent years fill all the gaps; it is my suggestion that they do not. We had to fight very hard—

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[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

I just wanted to put it to the House and the Minister that the Magnitsky law has not been fulfilled. For example, opposition is still being made to the Bill on visas that I put before the House just before Christmas. We are not seeing visas being refused to government officials travelling here from Russia. We know who many of them are—they own properties in Belgravia and apartments all over London—but we are not refusing them visas. The likelihood is that Putin would take really seriously our measures to prevent them coming here and taking part in activities here with impunity.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, we have a range of powers. For instance, we have a power to exclude from the UK non-EEA individuals whose presence is not conducive to the public good; EEA nationals may be excluded on the grounds of public policy or public security; and a person may be excluded for a range of reasons, including national security, criminality, involvement in war crimes, crimes against humanity, corruption and unacceptable behaviour. As the Prime Minister made clear in response to questions in the other place, we will continue to keep these matters in mind and, if we feel further action needs to be taken, we will consider doing so.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, may we have an assurance from the Minister that economic or financial considerations will not stand in the way of a proper response to these outrageous events?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think that is already quite clear.

[Lord Ricketts (CB)]

My Lords, I commend the Statement by the Prime Minister as strong, clear and measured, but the story that it tells is a chilling one: it is highly likely that a fellow permanent member of the United Nations has used a military-grade nerve agent in an English country town. As a former ambassador to NATO and national security adviser, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Newby, will allow me to take polite exception to his comment that this is not a matter for NATO. When the Prime Minister states that, if the Russians cannot produce an explanation this would amount to unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the UK, I ask the Minister whether she agrees that there is a strong case for consulting our NATO allies on what is a very grave national security threat.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I assure the noble Lord that we will be raising this matter with our allies in a number of forums, including the UN. There can be no return to business as usual with Russia, and this incident proves that our actions over the last decade have been justified. We have taken the lead against Russia’s foreign aggression and abuse of the international rules-based system.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the thoroughness with which the Government have reacted to this terrible incident and the fact that they have not jumped to conclusions prematurely or made statements on the basis of inadequate evidence. Now that the facts are becoming clearer, the robustness of the Prime Minister’s response is wholly adequate to the situation. Looking ahead, however, in the light of what has been said about this being an attack on the United Kingdom, as it certainly is, it will be very important to ensure that we have sufficient allied support—support from our European allies and from the US. It is going to be a great test of the Government’s diplomacy to ensure that we present a united front to Russia at this critical time.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend, and I entirely agree. Indeed, the action that we have taken on sanctions, for instance, has presented a clear united western position to Russia. We will be discussing this with our allies and working out what action needs to be taken, both in the UK and internationally.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, when I did a review two years ago into London’s preparedness for a major terrorist incident, I was informed that the number of emergency service staff, particularly in the ambulance service, trained and equipped to deal with CBRN incidents had reduced substantially in recent years, partly because of a change in the assessment of the intelligence of the risk of such an attack but also because of new ways of dealing with such incidents. Are the Government satisfied with the number of staff who are equipped with the appropriate suits to deal with such incidents in the event of something occurring in future?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Once again, I pay tribute to all those involved. We believe that there are resources. Obviously, we have pulled in experts from all different areas and different parts of the emergency services, and we feel that we are managing to respond to this adequately. However, we will also always be mindful and learn lessons from this going forward.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, what risk assessments have been carried out on Russian nationals living in the UK who may be a target for the Putin regime? What steps have the police and security services taken to minimise the risk to them and, more importantly, the risk to UK citizens and members of the emergency services who might come into contact with them?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Knowing his previous profession, I am sure the noble Lord will understand that I cannot comment on individual cases.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, in the case of Litvinenko a public inquiry was set up nine years after the event, when the trail had gone very cold. Will Her Majesty’s Government arrange for a public inquiry to be ordered immediately, as there is every prospect that it can cast a flood of light on this matter?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the Statement made clear, we have asked the Russian ambassador to respond within 24 hours to the questions that we have put to him, and I do not think it is right for me to prejudge any of the responses. I have made clear that we will be returning to the House once those conversations have been had and a decision is made as to how to proceed on the basis of the information received.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I read recently that the Russians complained that they had not been shown the evidence in relation to Litvinenko’s case. I hope it is possible to show them evidence this time that should convince them of the rightness of our conclusion, although that is of course subject to other aspects that I am not aware of. But I think we ought to do our best to convince them, if they are open to being convinced, that this is true.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the Statement set out, we have spoken to the Russian ambassador and set out, on the basis of the evidence that we have, what we believe the two possible explanations are for what happened in Salisbury, and we are waiting to hear their response.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, what Mr Putin will fear more than anything else is transparency and exposure of the excesses of his regime. What are we doing to promote alternative media sources being transmitted into Russia? They transmit Russia Today to us. What do we do in reciprocation? Are we pressing them to accept any of our media?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I will have to write to the noble Lord, as I do not have an answer to that question.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Can my noble friend give an estimate of how many could have been adversely affected by this attack in Salisbury?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I do not have figures to hand but, as I said, all those who were in contact with the patients have been contacted by Public Health England and questions asked about their health status. Public Health England does not expect any further patients to present as a result of the event but, if anyone who was in the area is concerned or feels unwell, they should dial 111 or 999, depending on the severity of their symptoms.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House think it is appropriate that there is a Russian propaganda channel on our television screens here in Britain? Will the Prime Minister consider withdrawing the licence from RT if it appears that the Russian state is behind the appalling events in Salisbury?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Lord will be aware, revoking Russia Today’s broadcasting licence is a matter for Ofcom, which has stringent rules to ensure that news, in whatever form, is reported accurately and with impartiality. Ofcom has a duty to ensure that all broadcast licensees are fit and proper.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition wished the police officer involved a full recovery. I know from experience, as do hundreds of farmers, that any exposure to organo-phosphates is permanent and irreversible. Will the Minister ensure that anyone exposed is looked at for psychoneurological and autonomic nervous system problems, because that seems to be where it strikes most?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments, and I am sure that our fantastic health services are doing all they can to support those who have been in contact with this agent. Once again, we wish Detective Sergeant Bailey all the best for a speedy recovery.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister say just a word more about the Chemical Weapons Convention? Is it a fact that the possession of this substance by the Russian state would be a breach of its obligations under that convention? Presumably, if the answer to that is yes, its use would be an even greater breach. Could she say something about that and whether the Government are considering making a case before the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We believe that this most certainly does go against the spirit of that treaty. We will be discussing that but, as I said, we have spoken to the Russian ambassador, we have set out our two explanations for this incident and I do not want to prejudge what may follow. We should wait, and decisions can be made on the basis of that response.

[Lord Faulks (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, suggested that the Americans may think that our response to these things is not sufficiently robust because we do not want to discourage investment into this country. Perhaps my noble friend the Leader of the House can confirm that, by introducing unexplained wealth orders and agreeing to set up a register identifying the beneficial owners of property, we are in fact ahead of the game and leading the world in trying to stamp out this sort of behaviour.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can most certainly confirm that. In fact, the first unexplained wealth orders have already been issued by the courts.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I would not like us to leave the subject without mentioning the more particular situation. I happen to have spent several hours in Salisbury this weekend, and the calm—perhaps slightly depressed, but nevertheless calm—-and normal way in which individuals and businesses carried out their work in Salisbury despite the dramatic news on the media was incredible. You would not really have known that there was anything worse than the bad weather to keep people away from the centre of the city. Does that not underline the need to ensure that any further statements about the possible danger to individuals who were in the city are handled with great care and are given in due time, not adding to the anxieties of the population?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord and echo his tribute to the people of Salisbury. We are all thinking of them; they are at the forefront of our minds, as is their safety.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, for some years at the turn of the century I was rapporteur to the Council of Europe on the conflict in Chechnya. May I say that what has happened here is all too characteristic of the ruthless techniques of the Russian authorities? Does the noble Baroness agree that it has become very clear that one of their methods of control is to create fear and anxiety? In that context, is there not a very strong case for re-examining other happenings of the same kind in this country in recent years?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will know that of course the Government and the police are aware of other allegations, but I am afraid I cannot be drawn into them. The police obviously have operational independence to investigate criminal activity, and we do not direct police investigations. It is up to the police to decide whether to investigate, but I think that all of us believe that at the moment the focus should be on the events in Salisbury and making sure that we get to the bottom of that. We want to make sure that we deal with those who have carried out this appalling crime and that they are held to account.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, in associating myself particularly with the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, can I ask the noble Baroness to agree that robust language from the Prime Minister has not always been followed by robust action, and that it is better to have calibrated and effective action which genuinely deters President Putin than to seek tomorrow’s headlines?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I certainly agree with that. I would say that we have responded robustly and proportionately to Russian provocations over the last decade, from the murdering of Mr Litvinenko to pursuing illegal wars in Ukraine and Syria and constant aggression on the internet. At every stage, we have taken the appropriate actions and encouraged international partners to do the same.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Prime Minister’s distinction of the need for evidence over speculation. Is it recognised that a response from the Russian state might be enhanced if there was a working relationship between our agencies and the FSB, which is currently held hostage? Is it not the essence of diplomacy, which safeguards the interests of the state and its citizenry, to ensure constructive dialogue at all levels? Does the noble Baroness have a view on whether we need to ramp up on the resilience of the people at large in this country?

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[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in a previous answer, there can be no return to business as usual with Russia, but having said that, we do not want to be in a perpetual state of confrontation. We have sought to engage where possible, but it is for Russia to make the first move and demonstrate that its behaviour will change.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That Standing Order 40(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Wednesday 14 March, Wednesday 21 March and Wednesday 28 March to enable the Committee stage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill to continue before oral questions on those days.

Motion agreed.

United Kingdom-European Union Future Economic Partnership

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on our future economic partnership with the European Union.

In December, we agreed the key elements of our departure from the EU and we are turning that agreement into draft legal text. We have made clear our concerns about the first draft that the Commission published last week but no one should doubt our commitment to the entirety of the joint report. We are close to agreement on the terms of a time-limited implementation period to give Governments, businesses and citizens on both sides time to prepare for our new relationship, and I am confident we can resolve our remaining differences in the days ahead. Now we must focus on our future relationship: a new relationship that respects the result of the referendum, provides an enduring solution, protects people’s jobs and security, is consistent with the kind of country we want to be and strengthens our union of nations and people. These are the five tests for the deal we will negotiate.

There are also some hard facts for both sides. First, we are leaving the single market. In certain ways, our access to each other’s markets will be less than it is now. We need to strike a new balance but we will not accept the rights of Canada and the obligations of Norway.

Secondly, even after we have left, EU law and ECJ decisions will continue to affect us. The ECJ determines whether agreements the EU has struck are legal under the EU’s own law and if, as part of our future partnership, Parliament passes a law identical to an EU law, it may make sense for our courts to look at the appropriate ECJ judgments so that we both interpret those laws consistently—as they do for the appropriate jurisprudence of other countries’ courts. But the agreement we reach must respect the sovereignty of both our legal orders. That means the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK will end. It also means that the ultimate arbiter of disputes about our future partnership cannot be the court of either party.

Thirdly, if we want good access to each other’s markets it has to be on fair terms. As with any trade agreement, we must accept the need for binding commitments. So we may choose to commit some areas of our regulations, such as state aid and competition, to remaining in step with the EU’s.

Finally, we must resolve the tensions between some of our objectives. We want the freedom to negotiate trade agreements around the world. We want control of our laws. We also want as frictionless a border as possible with the EU, so that we do not damage the integrated supply chains that our industries depend on and do not have a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

However, there are tensions in the EU’s position and some hard facts for it, too. The Commission has suggested that an off-the-shelf model is the only option available to the UK. But it has also said that in certain areas none of the EU’s third-country agreements would be appropriate, while the agreement envisaged in the European Council’s own guidelines would not be delivered by a Canada-style deal. Finally, we need to face the fact that this is a negotiation and that neither side can have exactly what we want. But I am confident we can reach agreement so I am proposing the broadest and deepest possible future economic partnership, covering more sectors and co-operating more fully than any previous free trade agreement.

There are five foundations that must underpin our trading relationship: first, reciprocal binding commitments to ensure fair and open competition so that UK businesses can compete fairly in EU markets and vice versa; secondly, an independent arbitration mechanism; thirdly, an ongoing dialogue with the EU, including between regulators; fourthly, an arrangement for data protection that goes beyond an adequacy agreement; and, fifthly, free movement will come to an end. But UK and EU citizens will still want to work and study in each other’s countries, and we are open to discussions about how to maintain the links between our people. We then need to tailor this partnership to the needs of our economies. We should be absolutely clear that this is not cherry picking. Every free trade agreement has varying market access, depending on the respective interests of the countries involved. If this is cherry picking, then so is every trade arrangement. What matters is that our rights and obligations are held in balance.

On goods, a fundamental principle in our negotiating strategy is that trade at the UK-EU border will be as frictionless as possible, with no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. This means no tariffs or quotas and ensuring that products need undergo only one series of approvals in one country. To achieve this, we need a comprehensive system of mutual recognition. This can be delivered through a commitment to ensuring that the relevant UK regulatory standards remain as high as the EU’s, which, in practice, means that UK and EU regulatory standards will remain substantially similar in future. Our default is that UK law may not necessarily be identical to EU law but should achieve the same outcomes. In some cases, Parliament might choose to pass an identical law. If the Parliament of the day decided not to achieve the same outcomes as EU law, it would be in the knowledge that there may be consequences for our market access. We will need an independent mechanism to oversee these arrangements, which, I have been clear, cannot be the European Court of Justice.

We also want to explore the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies such as those critical to the chemicals, medicines and aerospace industries. This would mean abiding by the rules of those agencies and making an appropriate financial contribution. The UK would also have to respect the remit of the ECJ in that regard. Parliament could decide not to accept these rules, but with consequences for our membership and linked market access rights.

Lastly, to achieve as frictionless a border as possible and to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, we need an agreement on customs. The UK has been clear that it is leaving the customs union. The EU has also formed a customs union with some other countries but those arrangements, if applied to the UK, would mean the EU setting the UK’s external tariffs, being able to let other countries sell more into the UK without making it easier for us to sell more to them; or it would mean the UK signing up to the common commercial policy. That would not be compatible with a meaningful, independent trade policy and it would mean we had less control than we do now over our trade in the world. We have set out two potential options for our customs arrangement: a customs partnership where, at the border, the UK would mirror the EU’s requirements for imports from the rest of the world for those goods arriving in the UK and intended for the EU; or a highly streamlined customs arrangement, where we would jointly implement a range of measures to minimise frictions, together with specific provisions for Northern Ireland. Both would leave the UK free to determine its own tariffs, which would not be possible in a customs union.

Taken together, the approach we have set out on goods and agencies and the options for a customs arrangement provide the basis for a good solution to the very specific challenges for Northern Ireland and Ireland. My commitment to this could not be stronger: we will not go back to a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland; nor will we break up the United Kingdom’s own common market with a border down the Irish Sea. As Prime Minister, I am not going to let our departure from the EU do anything to set back the historic progress made in Northern Ireland, nor will I allow anything that would damage the integrity of our precious union. The UK and Irish Governments and the European Commission will be working together to ensure we fulfil these commitments.

This approach to trade in goods is important for agriculture, food and drinks but here other considerations apply. We are leaving the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy, and will want to take the opportunity to reform our agriculture and fisheries management and regain control of access to our waters. I fully expect that our standards will remain at least as high as the EU’s, but it will be particularly important to secure flexibility here to make the most of our withdrawal from the EU for our farmers and exporters. We will also want to continue to work together to manage shared stocks in a sustainable way and agree reciprocal access to waters and a fairer allocation of fishing opportunities for the UK fishing industry.

On services, we have the opportunity to break new ground with a broader agreement than ever before. For example, broadcasting and financial services have never previously been meaningfully covered in a free trade agreement. We recognise that we cannot have the rights of membership of the single market, such as the country of origin principle or passporting, but we should explore creative options, including mutual recognition, to allow broadcasting across borders. My right honourable friend the Chancellor will set out more detail on financial services later this week. We will also look to agree an appropriate labour mobility framework that enables travel to provide services in person, as well as continued mutual recognition of professional qualifications. Finally, our partnership will need to cover agreements in other areas including energy, transport, digital, civil judicial co-operation, a far-reaching science and innovation pact, and cultural and educational programmes.

We cannot escape the complexity of the task ahead. We must build a new and lasting relationship, while preparing for every scenario, but with pragmatism, calm and patient discussion I am confident we can set an example to the world. Yes, there will be ups and downs over the months ahead, but we will not be buffeted by demands to talk tough or threaten a walk-out and we will not give in to the counsels of despair that this simply cannot be done—for this is in both the UK’s and the EU’s interests. As we go forwards, foremost in my mind is the pledge I made on my first day as Prime Minister: to act not in the interests of the privileged few, but in the interests of all our people, and to make Britain a country that works for everyone. My message to our friends in Europe is clear. You asked us to set out what we want in more detail. We have done that. We have shown we understand your principles. We have a shared interest in getting this right, so let us get on with it. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has set five overarching tests for a successful Brexit. Three are simply vacuous: respecting the referendum, being enduring and being consistent with the kind of country we want to be. Two are more substantive, but both are being actively undermined by the Government’s own Brexit stance.

The first is protecting people’s jobs and security. Has the Prime Minister given any thought to how that sounds to the 300 Ryanair workers at Glasgow Airport as the company closes its international base there, on the basis of Brexit, to the 288 workers at Landis+Gyr in Stockport as it moves its production to Romania, or to the small businesses which have contacted me explaining how leaving the customs union and single market will impose costs on them that will force them out of business? The Statement contains some welcome shafts of realism, none more so than the statement that our access to EU markets will be less than now. Does the noble Baroness the Leader accept that less access means less trade, which in turn means fewer jobs, lower national income and higher prices?

The second substantive test set by the Prime Minister is that Brexit must strengthen,

“our union of nations and our union of people”.

Leaving aside the impasse in discussions with the devolved institutions about the transposition of EU law, how does the noble Baroness think that sounds in Northern Ireland? The Prime Minister has come up with absolutely nothing new to reassure people that there will be no customs border between the north and the Republic. Of the options on the table, one simply says that SMEs, which represent 80% of trade, can carry on as if the border did not exist. How could that possibly work if standards diverge or if the UK strikes its own trade deals with different tariffs from those applying in the EU? This is the only example I know of where the Government’s policy is indeed bold and imaginative—but it is hardly credible.

As for the technological solution to the border, does the noble Baroness agree with Pascal Lamy that there is no such thing as a virtual border? Does she agree with the report, much touted by Brexiteers, from Lars Karlsson, which explains on page 11 that, on the highest tech option he can see, an app on a mobile phone of a lorry driver “opens the gate automatically” as the lorry approaches the border—that is, a gate, a physical thing, not a virtual border. Has she read his description of the Norway/Sweden border, the most technologically advanced in the world according to him, where at staffed customs posts most goods traffic is cleared “within 3-9 minutes”? There is no soft border there either.

The Prime Minister refers briefly to our being able, in theory, to negotiate new trade agreements after Brexit. When she rang Donald Trump over the weekend to complain about his plan to slap a punitive tariff on UK steel, did she ask him how that fitted into a comprehensive free trade deal? Did she consider that in fighting any US steel tariff, the EU as a whole was likely to have a bit more clout than the UK on its own?

More generally, the speech sets out a range of areas where the Government plan to follow EU rules but pay for the privilege and lose any say in how they are set. Having associate membership of various EU bodies is better than nothing, but in reality we become rule-takers. On the trade in goods, the PM admits that we will have to follow standards “substantially similar”—that is, as near as makes no difference to identical—to those set by the EU.

The rationale for becoming rule-takers instead of rule-makers is that Parliament retains the right to diverge from the EU rules if it chooses. But the speech demonstrates how in practice it will not dare do so because of the damage it would cause to business and the economy. The Prime Minister wants to exchange the reality of influence for the pretence of sovereignty—and what is worse, she clearly accepts that it is a pretence.

The Government are going through extraordinary contortions of both policy and language to try to replicate as far as possible the existing terms of our EU membership. It all begs the question, “Is it worth it?”—and invites the response, “No”.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. I particularly welcome the noble Baroness’s constructive comments and assure her that we take the scrutiny and involvement of Parliament as we develop our new relationships with the EU extremely seriously and will continue to do so.

The noble Baroness asked about agencies. As the Statement set out, we want to explore with the EU the terms on which the UK could opt to remain part of EU agencies—as she rightly said, the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency and the European Aviation Safety Agency. There may well be other agencies, such as those related to our future security partnership, that the UK chooses to remain a part of, and we will continue those discussions. Again, in relation to Euratom, it will be of benefit to both sides for the UK to have a close association, and that too will continue to be part of our ongoing discussions. As Prime Minister said, after we have left the jurisdiction of the ECJ, EU law and the decisions of the ECJ will continue to affect us, including through our respecting its remits where we agree that the UK should continue to participate in an EU agency.

The noble Lord asked about access to the EU market. He is right that the Prime Minister has said, in relation to hard facts we have to face, that in certain ways our access will be less than it is now. But we are also seeking the broadest and deepest possible agreement, covering more sectors and co-operating more fully than any free trade agreement anywhere today, and of course we will have the freedom to negotiate new trade agreements—so the future is bright.

The noble Baroness and the noble Lord touched on the very important issue of Northern Ireland. I repeat again that, as we have said constantly, we want trade at the border to be as frictionless as possible, with no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. We believe this can be achieved by a commitment to ensure that the relevant UK regulatory standards remain at least as high as the EU’s and by a customs arrangement. We acknowledge that there will be technological solutions to this, and we believe we have set out a structure by which we can begin and continue the negotiations with both the Irish Government and the European Commission to make sure we all achieve the aims that we have all clearly set out and to which we are extremely committed.

The noble Lord asked about future free trade agreements. I assure him that we have opened 14 informal trade dialogues with 21 countries, including the US, Australia and the UAE. These will form the groundwork for future FTAs. The Department for International Trade has a presence in 108 countries, and we have begun appointing a new network of trade commissioners. We are committed to new trade and new opportunities across the globe, but of course maintaining a strong, deep and positive relationship with the EU is what we are focused on in our negotiations with it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that this Statement is a welcome blast of common sense into an otherwise madly polarised debate? Will she also accept that the principle of mutual recognition, which has been embedded in EU law for the last 25 years and was in fact a British invention, can allow a welcome degree of flexibility in any kind of alignment or regulation or the development of different regulatory arrangements? It applies to all members inside the EU and to everyone associated with it, and there is no reason why we should not apply the same principles of mutual recognition, as the Prime Minister is arguing. Lastly, does my noble friend accept that of course there are cherries to be picked, but sometimes it is better to pick the cherries than to leave them to rot on the bough?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. I entirely agree. It is important to remember that many regulatory standards are themselves underpinned by international standards set by non-EU bodies so we are certainly committed, and believe it is absolutely achievable, to ensuring that our relevant UK regulatory standards remain as high as the EU’s. As I have said, many of these standards are underpinned by international standards—for instance, the UN Economic Commission for Europe sets vehicle safety standards—set by organisations of which we will continue to be a part.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I express my gratitude to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. The prosperity of the nation is one of the principles that the Prime Minister referred to in both her Mansion House speech and her Statement to the Commons today. I assume, and I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could confirm this, that some economic assessment was made of what the impact would be of achieving all the things that the Prime Minister set out to achieve in her Mansion House speech. In that speech she set out what the UK’s negotiating position would be, recognising that we would have less market access than before. I invite the noble Baroness to confirm to this House that that work was done and to indicate when it will be published, because the nation is entitled to see it.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in my response to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, yes, the Prime Minister has said that obviously we will have different access to the European market, but we are also committed to developing a broad and deep relationship with the EU and to having trade agreements elsewhere. We have committed to providing Parliament with appropriate analysis ahead of the final vote on the deal.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that it is now the Government’s view that withdrawing from the customs union and the single market will have a damaging effect on the UK economy, as well as creating a problem for the Northern Irish border? If that is so, is that not a very strange position from which to start the negotiations? Should Parliament not have an option of voting at this stage on whether those particular red lines, which would have a damaging effect on the entire population of this country, are going to happen?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid I do not agree with my noble friend. As the Statement set out, the EU has formed a customs union with other countries but those arrangements, if applied to the UK, would mean the EU setting the UK’s external tariffs, being able to let other countries sell more into the UK without making it easier for us to sell more to them, and the UK signing up to the common commercial policy, which could not be compatible with a meaningful trade policy. We are leaving the customs union and the Prime Minister has set out two potential options for our future customs relationship.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement, which seems to express a realism in some areas that many people have been articulating for the last year. It is just surprising that it has come so late. What worries me is the language, and I would be grateful if I could have a response to this. In the section on agrifood and fisheries in the Prime Minister’s speech on Friday, we read:

“I fully expect that our standards will remain at least as high as the EU’s. But it will be particularly important to secure flexibility here to ensure we can make the most of the opportunities presented by our withdrawal from the EU for our farmers and exporters”.


Which is it to be? “Flexibility” implies that standards could go down as well as up. If that phrase is in, the language is fairly woolly. I “fully expect” that I will be a millionaire by the time I am 65; I doubt it, though—my full expectations do not necessarily accord with reality. Could we please have some reflection on the language? It still seems dominated by assertion and aspiration rather than the sort of hard-nosed detail we need.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The UK, rightly, has some of the highest environmental and animal welfare standards around our agrifood sector; we want that to continue and we fully expect that it will. However, what we want is an agreement that ensures consistency of outcomes and standards for agrifood, while adding scope for flexibility in how we achieve this, and to make sure that our farmers and fishermen are able to take advantage of the freedoms that we may have by now leaving the EU.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I would like to ask the Minister a couple of practical questions. I admire the detail in the speech; there is a lot to learn in it, and I wish it had been given 18 months ago. However, I do not fully understand the “customs partnership” concept. Is it the case that if a container ship from Asia docks in Hamburg or Rotterdam, for containers coming on to Britain the authorities there will be expected to apply our definitions and rules of origin and the rates of duty that we set? If so, what is their incentive to agree to that additional complication for them? As for the agencies, what is the incentive for continental pharmaceutical or chemical industries to agree that we—uniquely, as no one outside the EU has membership of the single market’s agencies—should be allowed membership of them? Why should they agree? These are very interesting proposals, but are we sure of their negotiability? We present them as our offers; in fact, they are our requests. Why should the EU let us pick the cherries?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

A customs partnership would mean that at the border the UK would mirror the EU’s requirements for imports from the rest of the world, applying the same tariffs and the same rules of origin as the EU for those goods arriving in the UK and intended for the EU. By following this approach, we would know that all goods entering the EU via the UK paid the right EU duties, removing the need for customs processes at the UK/EU border. In relation to agency membership, there are indeed precedents. Switzerland, for instance, is an associate member of the European Aviation Safety Agency, which means that airworthiness certifications are granted by its own aviation authority and disputes are resolved through its courts.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

On managed divergence and regulatory alignment, the phrase “managed divergence”, which I gather the Cabinet agreed on 10 days ago, does not appear in the Prime Minister’s speech or this Statement. What we have on regulatory alignment is the very odd statement that Parliament in many cases will pass identical laws to an EU law. That sounds remarkably like a sort of Potemkin sovereignty, in which we do it independently but we simply follow what the others have done. That is not real sovereignty at all. Do the Government now accept that the advantages of regulatory alignment across the whole goods sector are such that, in practice, we will want to maintain the same standards, or do they accept, as the Foreign Secretary and others wish to go on insisting, that there are some rules out there that we will somehow want to diverge on?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

It will be not just for this Parliament but for future Parliaments to decide what our regulations look like. As the Statement set out, we may choose to commit in some areas of regulation, such as state aid and competition, to remain in step with the EU. The UK drove much of the policy in this area, so we have much to gain from keeping proper discipline on the use of subsidies and anti-competitive practice. The noble Lord is right: the Statement said that Parliament may choose to pass an identical law. Businesses that export to the EU have told us that in some instances it is strongly in their interests to have a single set of regulatory standards. However, if the Parliament of the day decided not to achieve the same outcomes as EU law, it would be doing that in the knowledge that there may be consequences for market access, but it would be its decision to do so.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister has emphasised the need to be flexible and the need for give and take and to be reasonable. Does that go as far as extending to being flexible and reasonable about the date of 29 March if, by being flexible, it is possible to get a negotiated outcome rather than a no-deal solution?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are very confident of getting a deal and, as we have said, we will be leaving the EU in March 2019.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, can I ask the Minister about two points on what I join others in recognising is a more pragmatic approach than we have had in the past? For example, in the Statement that she read out today were the words,

“we may choose to commit some areas of our regulations, such as state aid and competition, to remaining in step with the EU’s”.

I am sure that the Minister knows that state aid and competition issues are ruled on by the European Commission after lengthy inquiries and are subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. If we are going to do the same, how are we going to do it? By osmosis?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, as the Statement made clear, if, as part of our future partnership, Parliament passes, for instance, an identical law to an EU law, it may make sense for our courts to look at the appropriate ECJ judgments so that they can interpret those laws consistently.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

It is an unconvincing Statement in many ways but there are three particular delusions and contradictions in it. First, the Prime Minister still has not explained how you can have two countries with different tariffs and no controls at the border, but that is exactly what she promised the Irish before Christmas. Secondly, and very importantly, the Prime Minister is still under this extraordinarily naive delusion that she can sign trade agreements with Mr Trump without obliging us to take American agricultural products, which is quite inconceivable, and that she can sign a trade agreement with China while retaining quotas on Chinese steel imports. She obviously does not know Mr Xi Jinping. She also does not take seriously Mr Modi’s statements about the need for Indian immigration as a priority, in the event that he signs trade agreements with this country.

Thirdly, it really must be almost unprecedented in history for a Government to adopt policies that are directly designed to weaken a major staple of economic activity in that country, which is exactly what is happening here with the rejection of the idea that we should retain passports for the single market in financial services, banking and insurance. Will the Minister commit to making a study of the economic costs of that very self-destructive policy?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord’s extremely pessimistic view of every aspect of both the Statement and the Government’s approach. We believe that we will be able to develop a deep, special and productive relationship with the EU, which is what we are committed to, and the Prime Minister in the Statement set out the principles underpinning that.

In relation to the noble Lord’s point about passporting, the reason why we are not looking for passporting is that we understand that it is intrinsic to the single market, and it would require us to be subject to a single rule book over which we have no say. We are looking for a collaborative, objective framework that is reciprocal, mutually agreed and permanent, and therefore stable for businesses—and we believe that we can achieve this.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I note the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr—why should we allow the European Union to pick the cherries for us? Could my noble friend perhaps not suggest that, given that the Prime Minister’s speech has been extremely well received, not only within the Conservative Party but by the media and the wider country, now is the time for all of us, whatever our views on Brexit and whatever our party, to get behind the Prime Minister and, while we are about the nation’s business, to get the best deal for our country? Could my noble friend also confirm that what Donald Tusk said, which is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, applies to this process and that, in particular, it applies to our commitment to provide finance to the European Union?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is absolutely right that we want to enter into the next phase of negotiations in a positive and productive manner and believe that that is the same for both sides. Of course, our future partnership will need to be tailored to the needs of our economy, and this follows the approach that the EU has taken in the past. The EU’s agreement with South Korea, for instance, contains provisions to recognise each other’s approvals for new car models, whereas the agreement with Canada does not. The EU’s agreement with Canada contains provisions to recognise each other’s testing on machinery, while the agreement with South Korea does not. So it is possible to develop relationships that work for both sides, and that is exactly what we intend to do.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

If I may echo the Leader of the Opposition, this is a movement towards realism. However, is this Statement not really on two rather inconsistent themes? On the positive side, the calculus is, on page 4:

“What matters is that our rights and obligations are held in balance”.


That is an excellent idea of a calculus. But in the same Statement, on page 2, it makes the unqualified statement,

“we will not accept the … obligations of Norway”.

So how is this calculus going to be carried out, and with what degree of transparency? How do we know that the rights and obligations of Norway are incommensurate with what we need as a country? How is this calculation going to be carried out? It could be argued that, in the case I have mentioned, it is perfectly possible to show that the calculus could be positive. Could the Leader of the House enlighten us as to how these obligations and rights, advantages and disadvantages, are going to be balanced out in public?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That will be part of the negotiations, but what I can say—and I have said many times—is that we are seeking the broadest and deepest possible future economic partnership with the EU, covering more sectors and co-operating more fully than any free trade agreement. We believe this is achievable, because it is in both our interests, but also because of our unique starting point that on day one we have the same laws and rules. Rather than having to bring two different systems closer together, the task will be to manage the relationship once we have two separate legal systems. That is why we believe that we need to look beyond precedents and find a new balance.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

I rise also to support the Statement from the Leader of the House. I also welcome the commitment from the Prime Minister that there will be no return to a hard border and no border in the Irish Sea. I live closer to the border, probably, than any other Member of this House. I live in the city of Londonderry, about 20 miles from the border. I have listened to some very good speeches in this House on Brexit and on the border, and some not so good. I never believed in my lifetime that there would be so many experts on the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland in this House. I say that very sincerely.

I also believe that there are some Members of this House—and I hope that I am wrong but only time will prove it—who are using Brexit and especially the border issue as a political stick to beat the Prime Minister with. I say that very sincerely. Certainly, in Northern Ireland there are parties who are using the border to undermine Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom. People talk about a hard border and a soft border, and then people talk about keeping Northern Ireland in the customs union and within the single market. That is undermining the position of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom.

I want to ask the Minister a question very clearly. I am very happy when our Welsh and Scottish colleagues talk about their Assembly. Unfortunately, in Northern Ireland at this moment in time, we have no Assembly. Would the Minister agree that, with an Assembly in Northern Ireland, some of these issues would be more easily resolved?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Certainly, the Government are working very hard with the main parties in Northern Ireland to try to re-form the Northern Irish Assembly, because we absolutely want that body back representing the people of Northern Ireland. I can also say that the UK and Irish Governments are equally committed to ensuring that our departure from the EU does not lead to a hard border. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach have committed to work with the Commission to explore proposals and develop practical solutions to this question; that is something that we are focusing a lot of energy on, because we absolutely agree on its central importance.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That Standing Order 40(4) (so far as it relates to Thursdays) and (5) be suspended until Monday 4 June so far as is necessary to enable notices and orders relating to Public Bills, Measures, Affirmative Instruments and reports from Select Committees of the House to have precedence over other notices and orders on Thursdays.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on 8 March to allow the Finance (No. 2) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That, in the event of the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill being brought from the Commons and read a first time, Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 13 March to allow the Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That Standing Order 40(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on 7 March to enable the Committee stage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill to continue before oral questions that day.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

For the last time, I beg to move the fourth Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we are going to work very long hours during the Committee stage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Can the Minister assure us that we will not be in danger of breaking the European Union working time directive with the number of hours we will be sitting?

Black Rod

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, I have to inform the House that Her Majesty has appointed Sarah Clarke to be Lady Usher of the Black Rod, in succession to Lieutenant General David Leakey, CMG, CVO, CBE, and that she is at the Door, ready to receive your Lordships’ commands.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, it is the custom of the House to pay tribute to the outgoing Black Rod on the day that their successor assumes the office. I would like to take this opportunity to thank David for his tireless service to the House during the seven years that he served as Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.

Noble Lords will be aware that, since David’s retirement in December, the Yeoman Usher, Brigadier Neil Baverstock, has stepped in to serve as acting Black Rod. I am sure I speak for us all when I say that we are extremely grateful to Neil for taking on these essential duties with his typical calmness, good humour and effectiveness, and preparing a smooth handover to Sarah.

With the leave of the House, I would like to pay tribute to David’s distinguished career. He assumed the office of Black Rod in February 2011, following the sadly curtailed tenure of Sir Freddie Viggers, after a distinguished career in the Army spanning four decades. He commanded forces and operations in a number of areas, including West Germany, Northern Ireland and Bosnia. He used his service experience in the latter country to play a critical role as the UK’s military representative during the talks which led to the Dayton agreement in 1995, ending three and a half years of devastating conflict. David also held other senior defence, security and international appointments in the Ministry of Defence and in Brussels, most recently as the director-general of the EU military staff from 2007 to 2010.

As noble Lords know, behind the scenes during his time as Black Rod, David was responsible for arranging six State Openings—a huge operation, which he and his team, including the doorkeepers, always managed with skill and sensitivity. David supervised nine state visits and six addresses by a number of notable Heads of Government and States. As I am sure your Lordships well remember, the successful visits of President Obama and the King and Queen of Spain, as well as the celebrations to mark Her Majesty the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee, were all significant operations, conducted with enormous care. The novel arrangements in the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft, which allowed parliamentarians and the public to pay their respects to Lady Thatcher, Tony Benn and last year to PC Palmer in advance of their funerals, were also conducted with his characteristic thoughtfulness.

Throughout his time as Black Rod, David enjoyed close working relationships with three Serjeants at Arms in the Commons, and oversaw a good deal of change. His open-minded approach to changes in security governance, in particular, was essential in ensuring that the new arrangements under the parliamentary security director have worked well. The fact that those arrangements are now taken for granted by his successor will be one of David’s lasting legacies to this House.

During his tenure David also played a significant role in improving Parliament’s relocation contingency arrangements, overseeing, as one of his final acts as Black Rod, a successful relocation exercise which helped to provide reassurance about the robustness of these arrangements. He leaves Parliament as a whole better equipped to handle the considerable challenges to be faced in the coming years, for which we are grateful.

It would also be remiss of me not to acknowledge the degree of fame that David achieved last year, or rather his legs as adorned by Ede & Ravenscroft’s finest 60 denier tights, when they appeared in the BBC’s “Meet the Lords” documentary.

Beyond David’s professional achievements, many noble Lords will also be aware of his extracurricular musical activities and achievements. He was an active supporter of the National Children’s Orchestra, serving as the chairman until 2014, and within Parliament was a stalwart of the Parliament Choir, overseeing a successful joint concert with the Bundestag choir in Westminster Hall in July 2014. I trust that his retirement will provide ample time for the continued pursuit of these interests.

It simply remains for me to warmly welcome Sarah Clarke to the House. I look forward to working with her. I end by reiterating our thanks to David Leakey for the service he has given to this House, its Members and Parliament as a whole. I wish him, and his wife Shelagh, many happy years of retirement.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has provided a very rounded picture of our outgoing Black Rod, Lieutenant General David Leakey. Like his predecessors, he brought his considerable military experience to Parliament and, as we have heard, he has used his logistical, management and diplomatic experience and skills to great effect, both in good times, for national celebratory events, and in very difficult times, when his diligent and considerate nature was greatly appreciated.

The role of Black Rod has changed over the years, and David’s time in office was one of significant change, particularly in relation to how Parliament manages the security of the estate and of those who work here. The noble Baroness the Leader was right to highlight his flexibility and professionalism in managing such change.

On a personal note, I was very grateful when David supported my campaign for a commemorative brass plaque to recognise the Westminster Hall lying-in-state of those killed in the R101 airship disaster of 1930. After two years’ of Questions and lobbying, finally, with David’s strong support, we were able to welcome the descendants of those who had died and lain in state to an unveiling service in Westminster Hall, where the new plaque is proudly on display—a missing piece of parliamentary history now recognised. Thank you, David.

One of my favourite stories about David was told to me by my noble friend Lord Collins. When he asked Black Rod whether it was compulsory for Peers’ spouses to wear tiaras at State Openings, he was told very firmly and succinctly, “Yes, of course”. “That’s good”, replied my noble friend Lord Collins, “my husband has just bought one”. David’s response is not recorded—it may have been a rare speechless moment—but no tiara was worn.

From men in tiaras to men in tights: the Leader mentioned that the collective memory of your Lordships’ House has been deeply affected by the sight of David on national television in just his long white shirt, quickly and I have to say rather expertly managing to pull on his ceremonial black tights. One day, feeling quite courageous, I summoned up the nerve to ask him why. How did the crew manage to get him to dress in front of the camera? Somewhat embarrassed, he replied that he had got so used to them following him around that, “I just forgot they were there”.

One of the highlights of the parliamentary calendar has to be the State Opening of Parliament, when TVs around the world show that slow parade from your Lordships’ House to the other end of the building, so that Black Rod can summon Members of the elected House to hear the Queen’s Speech. As 2017 brought an unexpected election, the Queen’s Speech unfortunately clashed with a previous commitment in the royal calendar—Ascot. In a full House of Commons, with such formal ceremony, it was a delight to watch David struggle to keep a straight face as Dennis Skinner quipped, “Get your skates on. First race is half past two”.

The Leader paid tribute to and thanked the Yeoman Usher, Brigadier Neil Baverstock, for stepping up as the acting Black Rod following David’s departure. On behalf of these Benches, I add our appreciation and thanks. Neil has served as Yeoman Usher in good and in difficult times, and his calmness under pressure alongside an easy, yet highly efficient manner has been greatly and warmly appreciated.

And now we move into a new era with our new Lady Usher of the Black Rod, Sarah Clarke. When Sarah first saw the newspaper advert, she knew that that she would have to demonstrate that her experience would enable her to fulfil the responsibilities of this position. Following her interviews, we were absolutely confident that she has the skills, the understanding and the personality to take on this role. Who knows, her Wimbledon experience could be very useful during any parliamentary ping-pong—although some things take more time. We warmly welcome her and look forward to working with her, although she may not appreciate the ping-pong joke.

The last word has to be for David Leakey. We wish him and Shelagh a long and enjoyable retirement.

Working Group on Independent Complaints and Grievance Policy

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Thank you Mr Speaker. Today I am pleased to announce the publication of the report on an independent complaints and grievance policy. In this week of celebrating 100 years of women’s suffrage, it is right that we recognise the bravery of the suffrage movement and praise the great strides we have taken in our politics and in our society over the last 100 years. But we are also all too aware of the unacceptable level of intimidation and aggression being shown towards people in public life—often directed particularly at women, BAME and LGBT+ candidates. This behaviour clearly deters people from entering politics and threatens our democracy. When dealing with this very real issue, our Parliament must lead by example.

The working group was set up last November by the Prime Minister, and with the support of all party leaders, in response to the very troubling allegations of sexual harassment and bullying taking place on the Parliamentary Estate. We all recognised the need for robust procedures to change the culture in Parliament, and for this place to set the best example of a workplace that protects and supports all those working in it.

In my first Statement, I said urgent action would be taken and that was the case. The staff helpline was extended to include staff of Peers and others, with face-to-face counselling made available on the estate. Party codes of conduct were updated and published online and, since Christmas, interim HR guidance has been made available to Members’ staff.

However, it was clear from an early stage that there was a substantial amount to do if we wanted to create a sound working environment that properly supports the more than 15,000 people who work for or with Parliament. I am hugely grateful to all members of the working group for their time, consideration and indeed patience as we worked towards the publication of this report. Mr Speaker was clear that for the House Commission to take up the new scheme, the response to this had to be cross-party and, while there have been some challenging discussions, I am pleased that this is what we have been able to achieve.

The group took extensive evidence, both in person and in writing, from a wide variety of stakeholders including parliamentary officials, the staff of MPs and Peers, unions, academics, authorities on sexual violence and legal professionals. The group also conducted its own survey, which was open to a wide range of people and included a number of passholders who had not previously been asked for their experience of bullying and harassment. Many people have devoted a considerable amount of time to this over the last three months and, after more than 100 hours of discussion, consultation and consideration, I believe that we have proposed a set of policies that will fundamentally change the working culture in Parliament.

I would now like to turn to those proposals, which are as follows. First, Parliament will agree a shared behaviour code. It will apply to everyone on the estate or engaged in parliamentary business, regardless of location, and it will underpin the new policy. It will be consulted on and will make clear the behavioural expectations of everyone in the parliamentary community. Secondly, the new complaints and grievance procedure will be independent from political parties. Thirdly, it was acknowledged that sexual harassment and sexual violence are different from other forms of inappropriate behaviour such as bullying and intimidation. Therefore, separate procedures will be agreed for those looking to raise a complaint regarding sexual harassment from those with a complaint of bullying. This is an important distinction and while everyone has acknowledged the severity of complaints of sexual harassment, evidence from staff made clear that instances of intimidation and bullying are in fact more prevalent. Fourthly, MPs’ staff require proper HR advice, something that has previously been lacking and will go a long way towards helping to resolve workplace grievances.

Importantly, the new system will be based on the principles of equality, confidentiality and fairness to all parties, and it will be in line with the laws of natural justice. It must command the confidence of all those who will use it. The working group took advice at an early stage that rather than reinventing the wheel, we should work with and build on the many sound processes and systems that we already have in place.

For the benefit of Members, I will turn briefly to the process for making a complaint or raising a grievance against a Member of this House. As colleagues will appreciate, the process for raising complaints against other members of the parliamentary community such as Peers, Members’ and Peers’ staff, journalists and contractors will each differ according to their particular role. All the procedures are designed for the protection of staff and parliamentarians alike and have fairness at their heart. It is intended that the House authorities will procure two independent services, one to consider allegations of sexual harassment and violence and the other to consider workplace bullying and intimidation. Both avenues will provide support and, where needed, will investigate the complaint.

Where informal resolution is not possible and the complaint is upheld, it will be referred to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards in the case of a Member of this House. The working group proposes that the commissioner’s role will be expanded and reformed. She will have access to legal advice and will be able to impose a new range of lower-level sanctions that may include a written apology, mandatory training or future behaviour agreements. The commissioner will be able to review any finding by the independent investigator and, where she does so, she will ensure that her investigations are confidential, that both the complainant and the alleged perpetrator have access to all evidence and, crucially, that each has the right to representation or to represent themselves. These measures will ensure fairness.

In the most serious of cases the commissioner will refer her findings to the Committee on Standards. The committee can recommend to the House that an individual is suspended and the House will vote on the recommendation. It is through this route that the existing Recall of MPs Act 2015 could be invoked. The trigger for recall remains the same as it is now and there is no plan for changes to primary legislation. The working group fully recognised that those who work in this place are often in the media spotlight and that vexatious and malicious complaints are a risk. The new procedures will therefore ensure that checks and balances are in place to guard against such complaints.

Finally, I will briefly outline the next steps. A Motion will be brought before the House and a debate will take place in the first two weeks after the Recess. Any necessary equivalent steps will be taken in the other place. It will then be for the House Commission to instruct the House authorities to finalise the agreed processes and carry out their implementation. I am grateful to the Clerk of the House for confirming that the House authorities are ready to begin this work via a series of workstreams that will include: first, developing and consulting on a behaviour code for Parliament; secondly, procuring the two separate services required to support and investigate complaints of sexual harassment or bullying; thirdly, procuring an HR guidance service for Members’ staff; fourthly, developing a staff handbook; and fifthly, identifying and drafting changes to the Standing Orders to finalise the amendments necessary to the procedures of the PCS and the Committee on Standards. The working group will continue as a steering group to oversee the work of the House authorities. It is our intention for the work to proceed at pace over the next few months. Finally, six months after the start of the new scheme, an appropriate body, covering both Houses and having direct staff representation, will review the operation of the new processes.

In conclusion, the working group was formed to bring about change. It is a right, not a privilege, to be treated with dignity and respect at work and this ambitious report is a major step towards a safer, more professional environment. I hope that honourable and right honourable Members across the House will welcome the report, which will, I am confident, ensure that our Parliament is among the best in the world, demonstrating our commitment to equality, justice and fairness. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement and I thank even more the members of the working group who have worked very hard on an intensive programme to produce this report. I begin by associating myself with what the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, just said about the behaviour that we see from the majority of people who are Members of or work in these institutions. That is what we would expect. But the report underlines—as if we needed telling—that not everybody meets those standards. The number of people who claim to have been the subject of sexual harassment or intimidation and bullying is shamefully high.

Any of us who have been around Parliament for any length of time are not totally surprised, because the abuse of power that it is possible to use as a Member of either the other place or here is pretty considerable. If we search our memory, all of us can think of people who have abused that power for a number of unsatisfactory purposes. It is very good to see that at the heart of these proposals there are sensible and comprehensive ways in which people can complain and have those complaints dealt with.

As I said when we discussed this before, underpinning all of this and more important than the complaints procedure is improving the culture of this place. The complaints procedure is dealing just with what happens when things go wrong. The key thing is to ensure that things do not go wrong to the extent that they have in the past. For this, the Code of Conduct is absolutely key. We have seen how the Code of Conduct of your Lordships’ House, which has been strengthened during my time here, has had a very significant impact on the way Members view their role and how they approach some potential conflicts of interest, for example.

The code and the importance attached to it are fundamental elements of these proposals. For example, I hope that all Members and members of staff will have to sign it in a somewhat formal way. In his last intervention in Parliament, Lord Callaghan wrote to the committee considering the Bill that was bringing together the Inland Revenue and HM Customs and Excise. He said that he hoped that the new merged department would keep the oath that all members of the Inland Revenue had had to sign on joining the department. He told how, as a young man, having formally to sign something that said “I will keep taxpayers’ information confidential” and “I will be honest” had a profound impact on him. Although on one level it seems a small thing, formally getting people to sign something will be very important.

When things go wrong we have very sensible ways to start to deal with them, but like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I question the role of the commissioner here. The Statement says the Commons commissioner will,

“have access to legal advice, and will be able to impose a new range of lower level sanctions that may include a written apology, mandatory training or future behaviour agreements”.

The idea of having future behaviour agreements for Members of your Lordships’ House rather appeals to me, but it is quite a change. If we are to do it—this will no doubt be one of the things that we will discuss in our debate after Easter—we will need to make sure that the commissioner here has a very clear remit and that all noble Lords and staff are absolutely clear what that remit is and how it should be exercised.

There is also a question for us as to which body will be reviewing this on a regular basis. The idea of having a six-month review is great, but which committee will have this formally in its remit? I suspect it is the House of Lords Commission but I am not absolutely sure. Some body here has to own this policy or it will not be properly implemented.

However, these are largely questions for the future. Today, we must simply welcome the Statement and the substantive work that underpins it and commit ourselves to do whatever we can to make sure it is properly implemented.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. Although he is not in his place, I want to put on record my thanks to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who has played an important role in the working group and been extremely helpful. He has dedicated a lot of his time to it. I also echo the noble Baroness’s thanks to the staff and the secretariat, who have worked incredibly hard on this important report.

The noble Baroness asked about advice for MPs and Peers. That is a key thing that the working group wants to make sure is available, as will be much more extensive training on a whole range of issues. On her question on sanctions, the working group did not propose any new sanctions for this House or the other place—this House already has the power to suspend or expel a Member who is guilty of misconduct—but the noble Baroness is absolutely right: there will be a range of sanctions at different points. As I mentioned, perhaps an apology will be enough; if not, sanctions will be graduated. As the investigations go through and the seriousness of the offence becomes clear, the sanctions available in relation to it will change.

Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked about the role of the Lords Commissioner for Standards. She gave evidence to the committee and has been involved in conversations, as has been the Commons commissioner, and of course she will be involved in any developments going forward. Investigations, sanctions and the Code of Conduct will need be reviewed by our Commissioner for Standards and the Lords’ Conduct Sub-Committee. The sub-committee will then need to make recommendations to the Committee for Privileges and Conduct. At the end of the process, the House will take decisions on what changes are necessary. Our commission will be involved in discussion and in helping set things in motion, but if changes are to be made to the Code of Conduct, we will of course go through the proper channels so that the House has the opportunity to accept and approve what may happen.

The noble Baroness might like to look at paragraph 84 in relation to trade unions, although I fear it will not go quite as far as she might like. But there is reference in there. I certainly agree with both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that work needs to move speedily. The noble Lord is right about the need for a culture change, which is why there is specific chapter in the report on that.

I thank noble Lords for their support and once again thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for his help on the committee.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. I immediately declare an interest as chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. Following our meeting this morning, our committee has already issued a warm statement of support for this document. There is a laconic reference in the Statement to “challenging discussions”. I indeed attended one such discussion chaired by the Leader of the House of Commons, Andrea Leadsom. I offer my personal congratulations to her. On 21 December, she made a Statement and then everything seemed to get stuck for quite a time. It is now unstuck; we now have real progress. I add to that my congratulations to all the other parties in the House of Commons, who after a vigorous debate have contributed to this agreement. The Speaker in the other place was quite right that there was no possibility of any real progress on this matter unless there was cross-party agreement. Yesterday afternoon, that finally materialised.

The great thing about this document is that it echoes the best practice of the best employers outside the House, which is what is so important about it. It is also important in that it strengthens the role of the parliamentary commissioner. I suspect it needs to be strengthened in other ways as well, but it could be seen as an important moment in that process.

Perhaps I may set out one final proviso, for which the committee has expressed support—points in that regard have already been made by the noble Lord, Lord Newby. I hope the noble Baroness accepts that much will continue to depend on the leadership culture in the House. These proposals are excellent, but they will depend on a continued transformation of the leadership culture in both Houses.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments and for his evidence to the committee. I am sure we will work closely with his committee as we move this work forward. He is absolutely right about the need for leadership, which is why I hope, and am sure, that our House commission will play a role in helping to make sure we can oversee these changes. It is partly why the working group will become a steering group: to make sure that we see the rapid progress that the noble Baroness was talking about and that we continue to provide leadership and representation across both Houses to get these processes in place.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, as I am sure most noble Lords do, I welcome the report; it takes a difficult matter very seriously. However, there are a couple of points on which I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could provide us with some further information.

The Statement says that the working group recognised that those who work in this place are often in the media spotlight and that vexatious and malicious complaints are a risk. It goes on to say that procedures will ensure that checks and balances are in place to safeguard against such complaints. Can the noble Baroness say a little bit more about such checks and balances? It has perhaps been felt that once an individual is targeted, all sorts of other people will then say, “Yes, this dreadful thing also happened to me”. I am sure that is often entirely true, but on the point made in the Statement about vexatious complaints it would helpful if the noble Baroness could say a little more.

My second point is about what we call “inappropriate behaviour”. As my noble friend Lady Smith said, it can mean different things to different people. It might be an inappropriate remark to somebody which is embarrassing or just plain silly. That is very different from bringing pressure to bear on an individual to respond to a sexual advance. Will the noble Baroness say a little more about the definition of what is really inappropriate?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On the noble Baroness’s second point, about inappropriate behaviour, she is absolutely right, which is why we are procuring external experts, one with specific expertise in sexual violence and sexual harassment and another to look more at bullying and harassment. They will have the expertise and knowledge to help those who wish to complain work out what they want to do and to give them support and guidance. That is part of why we are going externally to deliver these services: to make sure we have experts who can help victims and complainants navigate the process.

On vexatious claims, the noble Baroness is absolutely right: it was a concern raised within the working group and by various people who gave evidence. Obviously, confidentiality throughout the process will be key. As the Statement made clear, we will also make sure that both victims and alleged perpetrators have access to the information available and to support, advice and representation if they need it. That way, we can make sure that everyone is able to put their case forward and that both parties can respect whatever decision is ultimately made and deal with its outcome, be it the perpetrator having a sanction imposed or the victim feeling that they have had their case properly heard.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I welcome the Statement and the report. The noble Baroness was very clear that the new procedure will apply to behaviour not just in this place but elsewhere—I think she referred to elsewhere in connection with a person’s role as a parliamentarian. Can she add some more information and detail to that? Also, how will people who believe themselves to have been victims of abuse elsewhere be enabled to access the new procedures, which, as I understand them, will operate largely within this building? How will people from outside access the new service?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

One issue that we were unable to resolve within the group because it was complex was around constituents and constituency offices. On that side of things, there is further work to be done, because it was clear that it is a complex area. Obviously, underpinning all this is a new behaviour code which everyone will sign up to. That will be around behaviour within one’s role, which will obviously apply to behaviour outside Parliament.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, this may be a point for the later debate but it occurs to me that it might be useful to have a slightly more defined statement than that one of the sanctions might be apology. A private apology, a public apology and an apology in the House are three totally different things.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is absolutely right and that is why the Commissioner for Standards, the Lords’ Conduct Sub-Committee and the Privileges and Conduct Committee will be involved in developing what type of sanction, as my noble friend points out, is relevant and appropriate at various stages. Again, that is something that will then come back to the House if we need to make changes.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for not having read every detail of the report but, going back to the answer that the noble Baroness gave to my noble friend Lady Symons, I am slightly puzzled by the role of the independent experts she mentioned. I can see that there is value in people who are thinking about making a complaint or have already gone some way towards doing so being helped to understand what the process would be for doing that, but is there, anywhere in the continuum envisaged, a role for mediation that would include both, as it were, complainer and complained against? I ask because I think it is a matter of fact in law that harassment is in the mind of the beholder. That is to say that it is not for the person doing the harassing to determine whether they have harassed somebody; it is in the first instance for the person who feels themselves injured to determine that that is the case. Sometimes, in order to resolve it, it is necessary for both parties to see their own behaviour differently. Can the Minister tell us how that is likely to work in practice?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Yes, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. The intention is to procure two independent services, including one independent sexual violence adviser service and another workplace dispute resolution service. So there will indeed be opportunities for mediation and if that can solve the issue, that is fantastic. The services will also mean that if that cannot happen, the complainant can move forward and if worse things have happened, further sanctions can be involved. That is at the heart of what we want to do: we want to make sure, obviously, that everyone has a workplace in which they feel safe and valued.

Palace of Westminster: Restoration and Renewal

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That this House concurs with the House of Commons in their resolution of 31 January, and accordingly resolves that this House—

(1) affirms its commitment to the historic Palace of Westminster and its unique status as a UNESCO World Heritage Site, Royal Palace and home of our Houses of Parliament;

(2) takes note of the Report of the Joint Committee on the Palace of Westminster Restoration and Renewal of the Palace of Westminster (Session 2016-17, HL Paper 41);

(3) accepts that there is a clear and pressing need to repair the services in the Palace of Westminster in a comprehensive and strategic manner to prevent catastrophic failure in this Parliament, whilst acknowledging the demand and burden on public expenditure and fiscal constraints at a time of prudence and restraint;

(4) accordingly endorses the unanimous conclusion of the Joint Committee that a full and timely decant of the Palace is the best and the most cost-effective delivery option, as endorsed by the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee and the Infrastructure and Projects Authority;

(5) accepts that expenditure on the Palace during this Parliament will be limited to preparatory work for the comprehensive programme of works envisaged, together with works essential to ensure the continuing functioning of the Palace;

(6) endorses the Joint Committee’s recommendation that a Sponsor Board and Delivery Authority be established by legislation to develop a business case and costed programme for the work to be approved by both Houses of Parliament, and to commission and oversee the work required, and that immediate steps be taken now to establish a shadow Sponsor Board and Delivery Authority;

(7) instructs the shadow Sponsor Board and Delivery Authority and their statutory successors to apply high standards of cost-effectiveness and demonstrate value for money in the business case, to report back to Parliament with up to date costings and a realistic timetable for the duration of the work, and to include measures to ensure: the repair and replacement of mechanical and electrical services, fire safety improvement works, the removal of asbestos, repairs to the external and internal fabric of the Palace, the removal of unnecessary and unsightly accretions to the Palace, the improvement of visitor access including the provision of new educational and other facilities for visitors and full access for people with disabilities; and

(8) affirms that the guarantee that both Houses will return to their historic Chambers as soon as possible should be incorporated in primary legislation.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, today’s debate is about the restoration and renewal of this iconic building. It is a building steeped in history, and of course today marks one of those historic occasions, as it is 100 years since Parliament passed a law which allowed women to vote for the first time. Following this debate the House will be asked to take an important decision about whether or not to support the proposition that was agreed last Wednesday in the House of Commons. As this is a Motion for the House rather than for the Government, it will be a free vote on our Benches, as it was in the other place. Before we begin, I should acknowledge that this debate has been a long time coming—I note the wry smiles and noise from around the House. But there has been a lot of preparatory work and discussion in both Houses to get us to this point.

I am sure that the House would like to join me in paying tribute to the excellent report produced in 2016 by the Joint Committee on the Palace of Westminster, co-chaired by my predecessor my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport during his time as Leader of the Commons. Others members of that committee are present today, including the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. The House owes them, along with the R&R programme team, a huge debt of gratitude for the work they have done in laying the foundations for today’s decision. I also thank the many noble Lords from all sides of the House who attended the drop-in sessions that I hosted with my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons before Christmas, and those Peers who have taken the time to visit the basement, the roof and other parts of the Palace with members of the R&R team.

Last Wednesday the House of Commons debated a number of options on how to proceed with the work everyone agrees needs to be done to this building. It made a decision to progress by endorsing the Joint Committee’s recommendation that a full and timely decant of the Palace is the best and most cost-effective delivery option. I have no hesitation in commending the Motion that the other place voted for to your Lordships.

There are difficult decisions to be made on how we best protect one of the world’s most iconic buildings for future generations, but we must address these decisions head on. The patch and mend approach is no longer sustainable. The way forward on R&R must be supported by both Houses as the solution has to be right for Parliament as a whole. A programme of this scale and national significance should command the broadest possible consensus. Therefore, this House must agree a Motion which is substantively the same as that agreed by the other place—otherwise we will once again reach an impasse.

That means that, if the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Naseby were to be agreed by this House, both Houses would have taken materially different decisions. This would mean it was likely that no progress could be made until time was found for the other place to debate this matter again and, in effect, reconsider the position that it agreed last week only after lengthy delays and a series of votes, and I am afraid that we would be no closer to making progress. I hope that the majority of your Lordships will agree that this would not be a desirable outcome. I will respond in more detail to the amendment that has been tabled at the end of the debate.

There are some critical risks now facing the Palace of Westminster. First, the lack of fire compartmentalisation means that fire patrols around the clock are necessary to keep us safe. Over the past 10 years, 60 incidents have had the potential to cause a serious fire. Secondly, there is a huge amount of asbestos in the building, much of it in the plant rooms and voids where the mechanical and engineering work needs to take place. Thirdly, many pipes and cables providing essential services are decades past their lifespan, with some now being impossible to access. This network of services, which has developed in an ad hoc way since the reconstruction of the Palace in the 19th century, is under such strain that the failure of one of them might render the building uninhabitable.

The likelihood of a major failure increases the longer that these systems are left unaddressed. While the House authorities are satisfied that the Palace is currently safe, it will become ever more difficult to maintain and manage this level of safety with every year that passes. Thankfully, the increasing risks facing the Palace are not structural ones but, while restoration work is already taking place to the exterior of the Palace, and can be done without significantly disrupting the business of the House, stripping out and replacing these ageing services will require a more substantial decant of the Palace. Indeed, some of the exterior renovation work taking place now can be disruptive in terms of noise. Many of your Lordships may remember the temporary suspension of the House at the end of 2016 because of stone-blasting work in the courtyard. The requirement to work around the sitting patterns of both Houses also has a significant impact on the timeframes and costs.

So there is a pressing need to repair the services in the Palace, but we must also acknowledge the likely costs associated with a programme of work of this magnitude and the fact that the burden will fall on the public purse. So while it is our responsibility as stewards to safeguard this UNESCO world heritage site, it is also our responsibility to ensure value for taxpayers’ money. For our part, the Government have said that there can be no blank cheque for this work, and value for taxpayers’ money will frame the choices that we make. If we do agree the Motion that this work should proceed, it will still be important to thoroughly examine the costs and manage the work in a way that avoids the unacceptable cost and time overruns that have occurred with other projects such as the refurbishment of Elizabeth Tower.

It may be helpful for me to briefly set out the next steps should the House agree to the Motion before us today. The next phase of work will be the development of an outline business case including the design, up-to-date costs and how the programme will be delivered. Significant time and investment will be required to get this right. To supervise this work, the Joint Committee recommended that a sponsor board be established to represent Parliament as the client. The board will have parliamentarians from both Houses as well as external members, including the chair, with expertise in heritage and project management. The sponsor board will oversee the work of a delivery authority that will be made up of professionals with the expertise to manage and deliver a project of this size. This seems to be the right approach.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Joint Committee’s report identified the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre as the preferred venue to accommodate this House during the works. It is likely that the House of Commons Chamber will be accommodated in Richmond House. But I should emphasise that feasibility work on these options is still ongoing and no final decisions have been taken. These arrangements will also form part of the business case. Once the outline business case has been produced, it will be brought to both Houses for approval. If approval is given by your Lordships and the other place, it is anticipated that the decant of the Palace will commence no sooner than 2025.

Later this month the commissions in both Houses will be invited to consider and agree the governance arrangements for the sponsor board and delivery authority. If they are content, the House authorities will launch a recruitment round for the external members who will sit on the sponsor board, including the chair. Engagement with Members will be one of the key roles of the sponsor board, as it will be crucial for their views, as well as those of the staff, public and other stakeholders, to inform and shape the programme, particularly the design, as it develops.

In the meantime, significant and essential repair and improvement work to the Palace will continue to take place. This includes ongoing restoration work to Elizabeth Tower, Westminster Hall, the cast-iron roofs and the stonework in the courtyards. In the Commons the renovation of the Northern Estate, which is an important enabler for the wider R&R works, will also continue.

I end simply by reiterating my thanks to my noble friend Lady Stowell, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and the other members of the Joint Committee participating in today’s debate—the noble Lords, Lord Laming and Lord Carter of Coles, and my noble friend Lord Deighton—for their hard work and patience in laying the foundations, which has allowed us the opportunity to make progress on this important matter. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this important debate. I am also grateful for the near unanimous support that has been expressed from all sides of the House in support of the Motion, and for the number of noble Lords who pointed out that this may be the only time that this happens while I am Leader.

It has been a high-quality debate, and noble Lords across the House have eloquently set out the risks that this building faces and acknowledged the work that needs to be done. I was also very impressed by the number of noble Lords who have been on the basement tours. I have been on several myself and can only agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews: they alarmed me.

I will now try to respond to some of the points raised in the debate. The noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Jones, the noble Lords, Lord Carter, Lord Stunell, Lord Kirkwood and Lord McKenzie, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, all rightly talked about the need for the management of risk and safety and raised valid concerns. To contain the risks in the run-up to decant, the Strategic Estates team is carrying out a programme of fire safety improvement works which are due to be completed in about a year and will conduct a further round of medium-term mechanical and electrical works but, as noble Lords have rightly said, these are sticking plasters and not a long-term strategic solution.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, raised the issue of Member communications, and communications with Members of both this House and MPs will of course be important throughout the programme. It is anticipated that the sponsor body will establish a number of consultative forums to which Members of both Houses will be able to feed their views, which will cover the wide range of issues that your Lordships have spoken about today and, I hope, allow the expertise of both this House and the other place to feed in to make sure that we do the best we can by this building. The two House Commissions and the domestic committees in both Houses will of course continue to play a key role.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also rightly mentioned staff consultation. The Joint Committee took evidence from parliamentary staff but, as with Members, it will be important to ensure that the sponsor board takes into account the views of staff and feeds them in to the programme. It will take that extremely seriously.

The noble Lords, Lord Blunkett, Lord Kirkwood, Lord Cunningham and Lord Newby, and my noble friend Lord Maude all rightly talked about renewing democracy and looking at the use of this building. There will of course be scope in the programme to support changes to the way in which Parliament works and how the building is used by Peers, staff and MPs. Public access and engagement, as the Joint Committee noted, will be an important theme in the design stage and I am sure that the sponsor board will wish to engage widely with both Members and the wider public.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and my noble friends Lord Lingfield and Lord Deighton rightly talked about the need for the regional distribution of work. The use of off-site workshops has the potential to distribute the work around the UK and, possibly, speed it up. We are already seeing this. The cast-iron roof panels, for instance, are being refurbished in south Yorkshire, and the tiles being replaced are manufactured in Shropshire. I very much hope and expect that as we progress the work, this will happen on a grander scale.

The noble Lords, Lord Blunkett, Lord McKenzie, Lord Stunell, Lord Lisvane, Lord Bassam, my noble friends Lord Lingfield and Lord Deighton and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, all talked about apprenticeships and skills. The programme will require a large, highly skilled workforce with both traditional and modern skills. The programme team has already been in contact with Crossrail, the Building Crafts College that my noble friend Lord Lingfield mentioned and others to discuss how we might establish an effective apprenticeship programme to encourage and make use of it as part of the renewal of this building.

I assure the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Carter, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and my noble friend Lord Blencathra that a major element of the proposed works will include significantly improving disabled access in the palace, which does not currently meet modern standards. I hope that the noble Baroness will bring her expertise to bear on some of the work in this area. She rightly raised some important issues which need to be looked at.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Naseby, Lord Newby, Lord Cormack, Lord Cope, Lord Renfrew, Lord Freeman and Lord Lingfield, the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope and Lord Wallace, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, all referred in various degrees to the QEII Centre. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the centre was identified by the Joint Committee as the preferred option for temporary accommodation for the House of Lords, including its Chamber. However, these recommendations are subject to the approval of this proposal, followed by further feasibility work and value-for-money assessments. I stress that no decisions have been made at this stage. A number of commercial implications will need to be considered. In the meantime, the centre remains fully open for business. The QEII Centre would not close immediately and there will be time for further work on developing additional conference and events capacity in London. Closure of the centre would need to be carefully managed to ensure that the impact on London’s commercial reputation as an international meetings capital and the UK’s reputation as an important meetings destination are not unduly prejudiced. I assure noble Lords that those thoughts will be in the mind of the sponsor board.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, and my noble friend Lord Cormack both asked about Portcullis House and Richmond House. The use of Portcullis House is a matter for the Commons commission as it forms part of the Commons estate—as Millbank House forms part of the Lords estate. Redevelopment of Richmond House will be addressed by the Commons, but any work that happened would retain the historic Richmond Terrace, as well as the grade 2 listed parade on Whitehall. This work will need to be considered more fully and no final decisions have been made.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about maintenance costs. The outline business case will include whole-life cost, which includes both construction costs and ongoing maintenance costs thereafter, usually over a 60-year period. We spend many tens of millions of pounds each year on keeping this building going. The R&R programme offers scope to reduce long-term maintenance costs significantly. My noble friends Lord Horam, Lord Renfrew and Lord Maude, the noble Lords, Lord Haworth, Lord Lisvane, Lord Vaux and Lord Addington, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked about the 2025 start date. Noble Lords all understand the extent of the work that will need to take place and adequate time will be needed to allow for the completion of the Northern Estate programme, arranging temporary accommodation for the Lords, completing the design work, procuring the contracts and establishing the sponsor board and delivery authority. But the timescales have not yet been finalised and noble Lords can certainly be reassured that I have taken on board comments about the speed at which we can do the work. However, as noble Lords have also said, we have to get this right and deliver it well, so there will be a balance between speed and making sure we do it properly.

The noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Stunell, and my noble friend Lord Norton asked about legislation. If both Houses agree to this Motion, which I very much hope they will, they will take away the very clear message to make progress as quickly as possible. I assure noble Lords that I and the Leader of the Commons are committed to introducing a Bill as soon as parliamentary time allows.

My noble friend Lord Renfrew asked about archaeology. We certainly understand the importance of archaeological access during the programme. The remains of the old Palace still lie under Speaker’s Court and Old Palace Yard and clearly the sponsor board will have to take that into consideration.

As many noble Lords have said, we and Members of the other place are merely custodians of this Palace. It would be irresponsible of us to ignore the pressing concerns that have been expressed around the Chamber. The Palace is part of our national heritage, a major tourist attraction and a cherished part of the fabric of this country, so it is right that we make sure we do what is needed to restore and renew it.

A rolling programme of works, which my noble friend Lord Naseby proposed in his amendment and advocated in his contribution, would take several decades to complete. Despite the scepticism of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, we believe that it would cost much more money and would certainly cause significant disruption to the business of both Houses, which would continue to sit in the Palace while the majority of the work took place. The observations of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, on Brighton Pavilion were instructive, and the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, highlighting his experience on major projects, were extremely valuable.

The other place has reached a decision. This debate has shown that the decision also commands consensus around this House. As the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Doocey, said, we cannot prevaricate any longer, risk worse damage to the Palace and allow our services to finally give way. We have conducted a series of studies from 2007, as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, mentioned, through to the review in 2012 mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Cunningham and Lord Lisvane, the independent options appraisal of 2014 and the Joint Committee’s important report in 2016, which was well outlined by my noble friend Lady Stowell, which recommended full decant. It is difficult to see what further policy options can be brought to bear. We now need to get on to the planning for how best to deliver the preferred option. I and the R&R team and, of course, the commissions and others who will be involved, will certainly reflect on the many thoughtful and practical suggestions noble Lords have put forward today. We should be anxious to avoid any decision today that prevents us making timely progress. I hope therefore that my noble friend will see fit to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, I listened carefully to all but two of the speeches and was pleased at the number of noble Lords who raised and debated the elements that I suggested needed debating. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Desai, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for raising the key point about finance. The issues I have raised are now on the record. I hope that they will provide a yardstick against which the project can be measured as it goes forward, and that they will be thought about. Nevertheless, I recognise that the vast majority of those who have attended today are most definitely in favour of the matter going forward without further ado. I too, of course, want action and to see things move forward. Against that background, I seek leave of the House to withdraw the amendment.