Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 3rd November 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

The point I am making is that it is true that the majority of smokers do not sit around and discuss whether filters have a benefit to their health. I am quite sure that, had you asked me in that survey, I would not have had a clue. You would then say that I was being conned into using a filter. However, I would be indifferent because that is not the basis on which people smoke, either with or without filters. I am particularly bemused by the idea that, as a woman, if I saw a white filter, I would immediately think “purity” and be forced to smoke a white-filtered cigarette. I mean, goodness me—have we all gone mad?

I want to talk also about the idea of health warnings on actual cigarettes, which, again, is completely disruptive to product design and so on. It is completely petty. Sometimes, I feel as though the public health people have done everything and anything they possibly can and have run out of things to do, so they are now down to the narrowest possible thing: the cigarette itself.

It is interesting that this idea is aimed especially at young people who might be given one cigarette at a party; and that people seem to be saying that, if only such people saw that written warning, it would be enough to stop them. Were we ever young? Were we ever at a party? Did we ever read anything on the side of a cigarette that stopped us? The point I am making is that, as it happens, the majority of young people know that smoking is bad for you; many young people even give adults like me lectures on how smoking is bad for you. The idea of a written warning is not, I think, very helpful.

I just wonder what the health warning would say. Would it say, “Tobacco kills you”? What is it going to say? I have had an idea. Public perceptions on the difference between smoking and vaping are at their all-time worst. Only a minority of current adult smokers—29%—are able to recognise accurately that vaping is less harmful than smoking. So I have an idea: if we are going to have a message on the side of individual cigarettes, perhaps we could say, “Vaping is cheaper and less harmful than smoking”. That is a good message. Why do we not say that? We could even say, “Vaping is good for you”. The point I am making is that that is not where we should be putting messages; we have heard confused messages in this Committee so far.

My final thought is on the success of Canada and Australia in dealing with smoking, which has been cited and thrown into the conversation. Let us look at what is actually happening and today’s front-page headlines in Australia. The only success of Canada and Australia has been the huge growth of a black market in cigarettes and vapes. It is a disaster. Many people in public health are now saying, “Maybe we went too far”. So, before we start emulating them, maybe we should take different lessons. The front page of the Australian newspaper The Age today is about the fact that people are panicking about what they have inadvertently done. This group of amendments is the kind of thing that could lead us in completely the wrong direction.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 34 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, to which I and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, have added our names. I declare an interest as the president of the Local Government Association. I thank ASH—Action on Smoking and Health—for its briefing, in which it laid out these amendments clearly. It supports the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, though not the one in my name; however, it raises some really interesting points around what we are trying to do and how far we need to go.

It is important to raise the issue of greenwashing and to look at better solutions than the one we currently have. Although this amendment does not go as far as some want, it is a step forward. I came to this amendment, which looks at the equivalent number of plastic straws that are in each cigarette—it is two plastic straws—because I worked on the impact of the ban on plastic straws on disabled people. Disabled people were vilified for daring still to want to use plastic straws, whereas people who smoke do not seem to have that same level of pressure against them.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, always makes really interesting speeches and asks really interesting questions. Are we doing this from the point of view of public health, the environment or littering? I would say, “All of them”. As somebody who has never smoked—I question how interesting any of the parties I went to as a teenager were—I presumed that filters were safer. It is only when you do the research that you realise that people have been deceived into thinking that they are safer than they actually are. The number of butts that are littered worldwide—4.5 trillion—is absolutely horrendous; it is the equivalent of 1.69 billion pounds of toxic trash. Look at the impact on the UK: a minimum of 3.9 million butts are littered every day. I am also interested in the fact that cleaning up these cigarette butts costs local authorities around £40 million a year; I think that that money could be spent far better in different ways.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of the amendments in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. The point I am making is slightly different. If I had my way, I would ban cigarette sales completely, but I know we are not going to get that far in a hurry.

As the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said, the filters are made of cellulose acetate that is converted into plastic. They are promoted as a health benefit in the sense that people think they filter out harmful tar, nicotine and carcinogens, which they do not. They are of no benefit. Filters also make people more addicted, because they make the cigarette smoke temperature lower and feel smoother, so I am told. People therefore take deeper breaths and become more addicted to the substances they inhale, because there is a higher concentration of them. They are actually more harmful, despite being promoted as less harmful than just cigarettes on their own.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I speak to the group of amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, to whom I am grateful. Together, these amendments seek to prohibit the manufacture, sale and supply of high-strength oral nicotine products—those containing more than 20 milligrams of nicotine per portion—and empower HMRC officers to seize and detain such products before they reach consumers.

The reason for these probing amendments can be summarised by a BBC article in July which told the story of Finn, a 17 year-old who started using nicotine pouches after getting bored of vaping. What began as curiosity quickly became addiction. He described how he and his friends would use pouches so strong—some claiming to contain 150 milligrams of nicotine each—that they would vomit or become physically immobilised. At school, he hid them under his lip, until one day he turned “bright green” in class and had to run out of the room. His mouth, he said, was “shredded to bits”.

This is not an isolated case. Recent data suggests that use among 16 to 24 year-olds has risen sharply in recent years, a deeply worrying trend. These pouches come in bright tins, flavoured with mango ice or bubble gum, and are marketed as clean, safe, and discreet. In reality, some of these products are many times stronger than a cigarette and far more addictive. This is a form of nicotine ingestion which is socially acceptable and often unnoticeable. Children can and do consume these products, sometimes even in class.

The point is not that nicotine pouches have no legitimate role at all. For adult smokers trying to quit, properly regulated products can have a place as part of the harm reduction strategy and a pathway off smoking. Although the Minister knows that my classical, liberal views mean that I am generally against banning things I do not like, what we have at present is the sale of nicotine products that are so strong that dentists have reported that they can burn gums, cause lesions and even expose the roots of teeth.

For these reasons, more reputable manufacturers already limit their products to under 20 milligrams per pouch. They also want a market that encourages and rewards responsible production, and which acts against rogue operators flooding the market with dangerously high-strength pouches. These probing amendments suggest a possible, sensible and enforceable ceiling that would align with good industry practice and give clarity to both regulators and retailers.

However, prohibiting the manufacture and sale of these products is only part of the solution. Unless enforcement agencies have the statutory power to act, those prohibitions risk becoming little more than words on a page. That is why our amendment to Clause 88 proposes that HMRC officers should be explicitly empowered to seize and detain high-strength nicotine pouches, preventing them entering the market in the first place. I know that the Government have indicated that they recognise the need for action in this area; this amendment probes the Government on how they intend to address concerns over these high-nicotine products.

Do the Government think that we should rely on downstream enforcement after these products have already reached young people? That is my first question for the Minister. My second question is: do the Government agree with the sentiment of the amendment on the need to address this issue at the border, where these goods are entering the country in large quantities, especially by giving HMRC the clear legal authority to do so? Thirdly, do the Government see the need for immediate action, or will they require a series of future consultations? Finally—I know that I am asking a lot of questions—do the Government believe that it is more effective to have a firm and immediate statutory assurance in this Bill, in order both to allow these products to be controlled and to give enforcement agencies the clarity that they need to act?

These amendments can be seen an opportunity to protect people, in particular young people, before they become addicted instead of punishing them afterwards. It is about ensuring that, if these products are so dangerous, they should not be able simply to be bought over the counter or ordered online. I recognise that all tobacco products may to some extent be classified as dangerous—or, at the very least, as not good for you— but the products at which these probing amendments are aimed are particularly dangerous. I am, therefore, interested in the Minister’s answers; in the Government’s position on high-nicotine pouches; and in how the Government intend to address the concerns here, as exemplified by Finn’s story. I beg to move.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak on Amendments 13 to 15. I apologise for not adding my name to Amendments 139 and 140, but I strongly support them.

I added my name to this group of amendments because I did not know an awful lot about oral nicotine. I was talking to a group of university students about my strong dislike of vaping. They introduced me to the subject and told me—they were at several different universities—that many university students use vapes almost continuously for lots of different reasons.

A lot of my concerns are around the impact on young people. Growing up, I remember the TV adverts that showed all the damage that smoking would do to your lungs, with images such as the pouring out of a glass of tar, but I am not sure that young people necessarily understand the impact that vaping will have on them. I am concerned about the high levels of nicotine in these products, but I am also concerned about the potential for vaping to lead to addiction and cardiovascular issues such as increased blood pressure.

I have read the same report as the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. It mentions young people talking about using vapes until they vomit. The report talks about a young man, Finn, using vapes and says that they immobilise the individual—especially when they use two or three in one go—which is not at all the intended consequence of them. Finn goes on to say:

“You feel this burning sensation against your gums, and then you get the hit”.


As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, said, these products have impacts on oral health, including gum disease and gum recession. Vaping is also linked to an increased risk of certain cancers, such as oral, pancreatic and oesophageal cancers. It can also have, potentially, a negative effect on adolescent brain development.

My problem with these products is that they are so easy to hide. The fact that children in school are able to use these products should be cause for concern, because young people are talking about sweating, salivating and struggling to concentrate. These products that should not be anywhere around young people. There is also a lot of discussion about how they can be used as a gateway to vaping or smoking. There is a lot of debate around how vaping and smoking are meant to be helping each other, but I have concerns about that as well.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

My Lords, we are running out of time. If we want to finish the group, we will have to finish by 8 pm—otherwise, we will have to break midway through. It is up to noble Lords whether they want to keep their comments to a minimum so that we can finish this group.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly to Amendment 193, to which my name is added. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for explaining its aim so well. I also support Amendment 4 from the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, and declare an interest as president of the LGA and chair of Sport Wales.

With my background in sport, I know that there has been a lot of nudge behaviour in stopping smoking. Some really good work has been done in Wales on smoke-free sport, and the Football Association of Wales has done work on banning smoking around youth games. However, this does not go far enough. I must apologise, as I am working on this and the Infrastructure and Planning Bill, and I have just come out of a debate on how to ensure that we have good physical activity and improve the health of the nation. The adverse impact of smoking on the health of the nation is partly why I am speaking on this Bill.

I am slightly surprised by some of the briefings that I have received, which seem to be more content with vaping than I expected. I am constantly told that it is much better than smoking, but it is hardly healthy. I have never smoked or vaped, so I probably do not come at it with the fervour of a reformed smoker, but I believe that a great deal of harm has been done by smoking and vaping. I shall discuss some of that in later groups. While smoking cessation services have gone some way, they do not go far enough. This amendment is part of a concerted effort to move forward. The way to do it is through a new clause that very clearly lays out the road map so that we can move towards a smoke-free United Kingdom.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 23rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I support many aspects of the Bill. I strongly dislike both smoking and vaping. I grew up in a house where both my parents smoked. My mother used it for hunger suppression and weight management. My father smoked just because people did. They both stopped later in life as the detriment to health was more widely realised.

I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Stevens of Birmingham raised Cancer Research UK. Smoking is the leading cause of health inequalities in the UK and accounts for half the difference in life expectancy between the richest and poorest in society. Some would argue that vaping is okay and not as harmful as smoking. The UK Vaping Industry Association briefing stated that vapes continue to drive smoking to historic lows. The association states that Public Health England has shown that vaping is

“at least 95% less harmful than smoking”

and that the NHS Better Health guidelines affirm that while vaping is not without risk, it is

“substantially less harmful than smoking”.

It might be better, slightly, but it is hardly good for you, as early smoking ads would suggest.

As an athlete, I never directly smoked. When I was competing, I spent most of my time avoiding anywhere that anybody smoked. One of the reasons I really dislike vaping is that I do not seem to be able to walk around anywhere without being vaped on or over. Vaping allows for nicotine to be more prevalent in the air, allowing for inhalation by third parties. I can try to be as healthy as possible—I can eat well and I can exercise—but ultimately I am inhaling vape smoke. I am pleased that a couple of noble Lords have raised cannabis, because I seem to spend quite a lot of my life swerving along the street trying to avoid that as well. I am no longer an athlete, but it is still on the banned list for athletes. The fact that it is so available should be cause for concern.

I realise that I am sounding old and grumpy. Quite a lot of things irritate me, but one of the things that irritate me quite a lot is people who pretend that they are not vaping while trying to hide it. People vape in places where they would never normally smoke, such as on buses. I am certain that I have smelt vape smoke in this very building. Being British, all I do is tut loudly. I am worried that vaping is seen as an alternative to smoking.

I accept that the initial reason for vapes and e-cigarettes was to provide a safer alternative, but the evidence has shown that the introduction of vapes has led to the gradual increase of vaping among children and minors. There are loads of statistics out there—72% of 11 to 17 year-olds report that they are exposed to some form of vape promotion. The main source has been in shops, at 55%, while online it is 29%. In March and April 2023, the proportion of children experimenting with vaping had grown 50% year on year, from one in 13 to one in nine. Young people who had used an e-cigarette were seven times more likely to become smokers one year later. The reasons that young people give are anxiety, stress and depression, but nicotine addiction just links these symptoms. We end up being in a Catch-22 situation.

Beyond my personal dislike, we have to look at environmental issues around smoking and vaping. Cigarette butts are currently made of cellulose acetate, which is synthetic plastic. We spent a lot of time in this building banning straws. Each cigarette butt contains around two straws’ worth of plastic. Globally, 6 trillion cigarettes are smoked each year, with 4.5 trillion butts being littered. Even in the UK, around 3.9 million cigarette butts are littered.

Wildlife and Countryside Link reported more than a million disposable vapes going into incineration or landfill every week. When I go to lots of sporting events, I see disposable vapes and vapes littered everywhere; the only thing that horrifies me more is the number of nitrous oxide cartridges that I see.

I am supportive of this Bill. Committee will be very interesting. I know we are going to get on to some contentious issues around smoking around hospitals. I would ban it from all entrances, but I realise that is possibly not possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, talked about the impact of smoking on her family, and it has probably impacted every single person in this building. I support any Bill that supports a smoke and vape-free future.

Puberty-suppressing Hormones

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord about the vulnerability of children and young people in this regard, which is why we are taking this action. His last point gives me the opportunity to say that we are committed to implementing the recommendations of the Cass review in full. That is a very useful guideline and tool for us to use.

I have no expectation that the situation that the noble Lord described in his third point will happen. Recruitment is subject to all the usual provisions, and I know that the gender services will seek to recruit very positively. If the noble Lord finds out anything else, I am sure he will raise it with me.

On whether the ban could become permanent, the review—at the risk of repeating myself—will report in 2027, as the noble Lord said. I believe that we should wait for that.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I welcome the tone of the Statement. In today’s society, there is huge pressure on young people, through social media and more widely. I would really not want to be a teenager right now.

There is also huge pressure on the NHS, with multiple calls on its services. Can the Minister elaborate a bit more on how His Majesty’s Government are going to increase the number of staff and make sure they are trained to support young people? How can we support those staff? This is a tough area for them to work in. We also need to protect them from malicious complaints to make sure that they can do their job.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am glad that the noble Baroness has raised the issue of staff. It is vital that people are allowed to go about their work—as the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, should have been too—without fear of physical, verbal, online or direct abuse. I am sure that we all agree that the abuse has been an absolute disgrace. I agree about protecting those who are doing this. On the point about service, as has been said, this is about a group of vulnerable children and young people. It is our duty to provide the services to support them and to make them evidence based.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. I do not want to repeat points that have been made at this late hour, but I wish to emphasise that the arguments about the importance of sport and well-being do not need to be made again. Everybody from all parties, right across the House, understand their importance and the consequences of not getting them right. The good will has been there for years, but the ability to transform it into effective action has not, and lots of well-intentioned efforts in the past have come to naught. That is what is driving the committee that met under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and I agree with the questions that have been asked.

For me, it is a case of not relying on a cross-departmental committee to run this project. It has not worked in the past, and there is no reason to think that it would work in the future. Is there seniority? Is there someone with clout who can bang heads together? Is there someone for whom it is a very important part of their job, and who knows they will be held accountable? I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that the Health Promotion Taskforce does seem to offer hope. Clarity on that—letting us know about its leadership, and the presenting to Parliament of an annual report for discussion—would allay many of our concerns. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I draw your attention to my interests: I am chair of ukactive, and I have a number of interests in this area. I also sat on the Lords Select Committee.

I too am not going to rehearse the arguments we gave in Committee, but all the names added to this amendment have been involved in this space for many years. We have all been through various iterations of this, and we should be talking about physical literacy and physical activity, and slightly less about sport. That might be surprising considering my background, but as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, we have an obesity crisis and a generation of young people who are more likely to die before their parents, and there are a number of conditions that can be treated. Frankly, we have been tinkering at the edges of this for way too long. There have been programmes and lots of initiatives that have had some success, but if we are serious about the NHS and the health of the nation, we have to do things in a different way. I feel like I have been talking about this for about the last 30 years—the noble Lord has had a slightly longer time in sport than I have—but I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response in order to understand how we can genuinely make a change and stop going round in circles on this important issue.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the last shall probably be quickest on this. We have all, as is agreed, said that we need to do something that is coherent. This has not been coherent. We have had committees that met once every full moon, provided everybody had had tea of the right quality that day; thus was their infrequency. Nobody was prepared to ensure that something that was inconvenient for one department was done to ensure that another department fulfilled it. There just was not anything. The Olympics did not manage to make them work together. We need coherent leadership and a price to be paid—accountability—for not doing it. If the Minister can give us that, we will have taken a major step forward. I would of course prefer the amendment that has been tabled, but I will take half a loaf any day over no bread. Can the Minister assure us that there will be leadership and that a price will be paid, publicly paid, for not doing it? Without that, as we know, this will merely become a report with somebody else saying, “They should have had a meeting about it some time”. Let us bin this. I am fed up with making that speech, even though it does usually get me out of a lot of trouble.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly, since I attached my name to Amendment 289, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. She set out the reason for the need for this service, but I just want to say explicitly—particularly given the next group of amendments—that I do not believe that independent providers, for-profit providers at least, would be the way of doing this, given the many problems that we have seen in social care, which are highlighted in the next group.

We still have, in some places at least, community hospitals and facilities in communities. These are things that ideally would be developed by the community for the community, being run for public good not private profit.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 289 in the names of my noble friends Lady Greengross, Lady Watkins, Lady Finlay and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

Reading the words of the amendment reminded me of the speech that my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton gave in your Lordships’ Chamber on 29 November 2012—col. 274 in Hansard. She talked movingly about a young man, a wheelchair user who had to remain in hospital four months longer than he should have because of a lack of accessible accommodation —a travesty. One can only imagine the impact on the mental health and well-being of someone in this situation. Sadly, many more now know what this feels like.

Although the situation we are in now is somewhat different, I hope that the Minister will be able to give due consideration to the needs of disabled people, in relation to accessibility—for example, regarding toilets, showers, and specialist equipment—but also to the support networks that disabled people may require, while ensuring that appropriate and knowledgeable people are able to support their rehab. This is vital so that many disabled people are not marooned.

While I have been in your Lordships’ Chamber tonight, I have been sent some data on the work carried out by Dr Elizabeth Williamson about the mortality rates of those on the learning disability register over the last 18 months; these rates are, quite frankly, shocking. I need some time to go through the data in detail and digest it. I will write to the Minister to explore this further but, at a quick glance, the data gives me cause for significant concern and means that careful implementation of the amendments in this group will be very important to protect and support disabled people.

Going back to the amendment, a disabled person’s ability to return home may or may not be more complicated than for a non-disabled person during this time but a longer stay than necessary could have a significant impact on someone’s mental health and well-being, especially if not properly supported, and could even hamper their long-term physical recovery, which, in turn, would put more pressure on the NHS.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 3 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I want to react very briefly to one comment that has been made in debate tonight, which is the issue flagged by my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft. It is something that is continually raised in the wider debate on assisted dying and it is the issue of incontinence being seen as so inherently tragic that people should use it as a reason to want to end their lives. It is considered an important subject; we have an all-party group on it.

Personally, I find it really difficult because I am incontinent and I have never once felt undignified by it. I cannot believe that I am the only person in the House, or, indeed, in the Chamber tonight, who is incontinent and I will happily discuss the many solutions for sorting out this problem. What I see is that people are scared to talk about it, because they think it is something that we should never discuss. I have many solutions for this. I intermittently catheterise; I use indwelling catheters; I have lots of options available to me if those do not work—medication and lots of options on surgery. There is nothing undignified about being incontinent if we support it properly.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, both these amendments reflect a desire to give people a greater say over the final weeks of their lives. As a strong believer in patient choice, which is, after all, a very central part of this Bill, I am greatly attracted by and supportive of my noble friend’s Amendment 203.

As several noble Lords have said, we are not very good at thinking about, planning for and managing death, despite Benjamin Franklin’s observation that it is one of only two certainties in this world, along with taxes. This amendment would give people diagnosed with a terminal illness the possibility of some degree of agency in their final days. That seems to me a wonderful idea, but it does of course raise questions about who such discussions would be with, and what qualifications might be needed by the people offering them. So, while I support the amendment, I would want to know more about the practicalities of delivering it, hopefully without having to create a whole new regulated profession of mortality consultants. I hope therefore that the Minister will respond positively to my noble friend’s suggestion of discussions on how the amendment might work; I will be interested to hear his response.

On Amendment 297, which I also support, I make only two brief points. First, I very much agree with what everybody has said that tonight is not the time to be discussing the merits of assisted dying; that is not what this amendment is about. Many Members on both sides of the argument have made it clear that Parliament needs to decide this issue, and the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, seeks to find a way of making that possible. I feel the same sort of alarm as my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft in finding myself on the opposite side to that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, but, with the greatest respect, I think he himself said we were waiting for a decision from Parliament before the Government could act on this. In that case, there has to be some way or process for making such a decision happen. That is exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is trying to produce with this amendment. No doubt there are ways of improving how that is done, maybe by giving more time to my noble friend Lady Meacher’s Bill. This responsibility is Parliament’s to resolve, and I cannot believe that, in this great Parliament, we cannot find a way of doing it.

Covid-19 Regulations: Assisted Deaths Abroad

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

Well, this is an extremely complex issue. As the noble Baroness alluded to, there is a wide variety of issues at stake, including values issues, questions of faith and, as she rightly said, questions of personal choice. There are the components here for an important national debate. I acknowledge the comments of several noble Lords already that we are approaching the moment when that debate seems more relevant than it has ever done. When that debate takes place, certainly personal choice will be an important part of it.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

What advice did the Secretary of State, Matt Hancock, have from the Director of Public Prosecutions in relation to the official guidance? The response on travelling to Dignitas suggests assisting suicide is an urgent act and encourages the suicide of those with disabling conditions. Some 25 years on from the Disability Discrimination Act, and with the rise in post-Covid mental health problems, this is particularly inappropriate, as data from other countries shows that the major driver for seeking assisted suicide is the fear of being a burden, and other social factors.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

In direct answer to the noble Baroness’s question, I am not sure whether any advice was given by the DPP, because there has been no change in the law. Nothing we have done here changes in any way either the 1961 Act or the advice of the DPP. So, from that point of view, the consultation is not necessary. What we have sought to do is clarify travel guidance in a way that does not change the application of the law in the country.

Covid-19: Social Care Services

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register, in that I am a vice-president of the LGA. The Care and Support Alliance has reported thousands of people getting in touch with its members over this very issue. The questions I raised at Second Reading of the Coronavirus Bill are still valid and I will be writing to the Minister, because of our three-minute time limit today. To help proceedings, I have nine questions.

There is still a lack of adequate PPE for disabled people and their carers. One young disabled woman reported that she was verbally abused for not having adequate PPE available, even though it is difficult to obtain. Another young woman struggling with PA support was told that she should just go and live in a care home. My first question is: now that care home deaths are being reported, are HMG changing their strategy for this sector? A really serious danger is that some disabled people may be forced to move back to their families, which could be toxic or abusive, because that could appear safer than a care home.

Secondly, for transparency, will HMG report deaths in the community so that the true overall death figure is accurate; if not, why not?

Thirdly, HMG said that the delivery target was 100,000 coronavirus tests a day by the end of April. Is this on target and how many more need to be done? Was this a logistics aim or a medical aim? Will the Minister confirm that disabled people will not be excluded from testing?

Fourthly, will HMG review the carer’s allowance? Unpaid carers are also in a precarious position.

Fifthly, will HMG urgently review the guidance on direct payments? It is confusing and families are at breaking point trying to manage working from home.

However, my biggest concern is that, as I understand it, eight areas have switched on the Care Act easements. I can find the names of six: Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Warwickshire, Staffordshire, Birmingham and Solihull. So, sixthly, as a matter of urgency, can the Minister confirm that these six are correct? It was reported in the Law Society Gazette this morning—but has now been removed—that the other two are Croydon and Hertfordshire, although Hertfordshire has said that it has not triggered easement. This is very confusing for everybody. Can the Minister confirm which areas have triggered easement?

Seventhly, can he explain how these areas have apparently reached crisis point, such that they cannot carry out their duties to disabled people, but nowhere else has? Or are there more than eight?

Eighthly, how are disabled people expected to get advice if they do not know what law their local area is applying?

Finally, ninthly, does the Minister accept that HMG should publish regularly the full list of areas that have switched on Care Act easements and, if they are not prepared to do so, can he explain why not?