Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I will not go on at great length because noble Lords have heard more than sufficient from me today, but this group brings us to what is known in the trade as the provider selection regime: that is, how the NHS goes about the process of commissioning services from a range of providers and the relationship between that and the choice that is available to patients. I am going to refer to my amendments, Amendments 98 and 99, and, without going on about it, I commend Amendment 80 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Finding out whether people have actually experienced choice and whether that is helpful to them is a useful thing to do, and I am not sure whether it features in the current electronic referral system. It would be useful to add it in.

The words of Amendment 98 are in fact already in the regulations that the NHS currently lives by because, born of the previous experience when there were discriminatory payment arrangements for private sector providers relative to public sector providers—ie, more advantageous payment arrangements for the private sector than the public sector—in the 2012 legislation we legislated to prevent that happening in the future. The current Bill removes said prohibition on discrimination on the basis of the ownership, public or private ownership, of a provider.

Noble Lords might think, “Ah, this is trying to avoid us discriminating against the private sector.” This was actually included in order to prevent the Government or the NHS discriminating in favour of the private sector. There may be arguments for it in certain circumstances because NHS bodies often have, as it were, fully depreciated assets and to create additional capacity the private sector very often has to invest capital and has to meet the costs of capital as well as the revenue costs of providing services. None the less, we addressed all that and took the view that we did not want any discrimination: we wanted no competition on price, but we wanted competition on quality. That is why, to be perfectly frank, I am testing the Government’s intentions in omitting something that was a central plank of policy for the 2012 legislation.

On Amendment 99, if I recall there is language in the original White Paper from last year, which set the provisions for the Bill, which referred to “any qualified provider” and made it clear that it was the Government’s intention to maintain the existing choice arrangements and access to any qualified provider. Indeed, I think it said that it would “bolster” the system, although I am not sure whether that is happening anywhere. The amendment is really intended to test a particular issue that arose. I am a very sad person, and I was looking at the service conditions for the NHS standard contract; the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham, will know them intimately. There is a point at which commissioners who are presented with people who wish to access other providers, who have a contract with another commissioner, are not required to extend that service to them. The way in which it was written in the standard contract was to talk about circumstances where the originating contract does not refer to the address—I think it said the postal address—included in the originating contract. My point to the Government is that this is absurd. There can be geographic limitations, but we should aim not to make them as limiting as the reference to a postal address in the originating contract would have made them.

The wider point is that, if one looks at the new provider selection regime, one sees that there is a process by which commissioners—the decision-making bodies commissioning services—go through a process of saying, “What are the circumstances of commissioning providers?” They ask whether it is circumstance 1, extending the existing arrangement; circumstance 2, going to a different provider; or circumstance 3, going to competition. The language of circumstance 2 is:

“where the decision-making body wants to use a different provider and the decision-making body considers it can identify a suitable provider without running a competitive procurement process”.

This is something that it will be readily able to do in many cases. A commissioner can say, “This is the circumstance. We want to go to a different provider and we know who we want to go to—that’s fine, we’ll give them the contract.”

Circumstance 3 is

“where the decision-making body cannot identify a single provider or group of providers that is most suitable without running a competitive process; or to test the market”.

The body could choose to test the market, but of course more than subtly. Whereas, in the past, the NHS tended to think that it needed to test the market in circumstances in which the legislation did not actually require it to, there is no such thing as compulsory competitive tendering in the 2012 legislation, or the regulations made under it. But now it has shifted completely the other way, and NHS bodies will be able broadly speaking to choose not to use competition at all. The question is whether that will really be sustainable. In the short run, access to the private sector may well be quite widespread, and there may well be a significant element of choice available to patients through the electronic referral service, but that may be closed down in years ahead, if these provisions are implemented in the way in which they are set out.

I issue a further warning to my noble friends. If you are a provider of services to the NHS and you believe that a decision has been made unfairly or inappropriately by the NHS, there is a standstill on the contract, you have 30 days, and you can send in a complaint, in effect, to the decision-making body, which then decides whether it has done the right thing. There is no independent process whatever, so it seems that the chances of providers resorting to law to challenge what they regard as unfair decisions on the part of decision-making bodies in the NHS rise dramatically with the implementation of these processes.

All that said, I hope what I can hear from my noble friends on the Front Bench is that what they said in the White Paper a year ago in February 2021 remains true: that they are going to sustain patient choice, that they will use the resources of NHS providers and beyond to enable us to fulfil our very demanding recovery programme, that they will think hard about whether the precise language in some of the respects that I have outlined is fair to providers, and that commissioners in the NHS will use their procurement capabilities to deliver best value for patients. I beg to move Amendment 98.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is contributing remotely.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I start by commending Amendment 100 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I look forward to hearing him speak on it. It is an excellent idea to ask people how much choice they have actually had when offered treatment. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, for explaining his two amendments, and I would like to say to him that he is not sad for carrying out his role in your Lordships’ House with interest and care. His expertise in matters that may leave others cold should be celebrated. The amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, ask that trade unions should be part of consultations on private providers, and that seems sensible.

I wish to focus, albeit briefly, on Amendment 106A, which proposes that Clause 70 be left out, and which will be spoken to later by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton; I apologise to her that under the remote rules I have to speak first. I will confine my remarks to the views of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s 15th report, in which paragraphs 17 and 18 make plain its views about these proposed procurement arrangements and regulations. The first point that it notes is that the memorandum, at paragraph 481, says that

“full analysis has not been completed and there has not been time to produce a more developed proposal.”

Why on earth do the Government wish to bring into force legislation that they admit they have not had time to analyse, let alone produce a more developed proposal for? We from our Benches, along with other noble Lords, have repeatedly said that the Cabinet Office procurement Bill is likely to overtake the needs for NHS-specific procurement regulations.

Paragraph 17 of the DPRRC Report gets straight to the heart of the issue and provides a response to the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, has tabled, starting with Amendment 101 in this group. It says:

“We do not accept that the inclusion of regulation-making powers should be a cover for inadequately developed policy.”


It is therefore more than a little surprising to see a slew of government amendments on this issue that, in the group under discussion, strengthen the powers under regulation.

Paragraph 18 of the Delegated Powers Committee report states that:

“Ministers would not ordinarily propose clauses in one Bill possibly requiring imminent amendment in a subsequent Bill without expecting to face questions. The House may wish to seek further and better particulars from the Minister concerning the possible effect of any Cabinet Office procurement Bill on the Health and Care Bill, and … to press the Minister on why it was necessary to include provision, based on inadequately developed policy, in the Health and Care Bill when the Government intend to introduce a procurement Bill.”


Not only have we tried this at an earlier stage, but there have been meetings between Committee and Report, and it appears that the Government are determined to press on. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has concerns about the Government’s intentions on the clause and its amendment; if she chooses to call a Division on stand part, we from these Benches will support her.

Eating Disorders

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is not just about understanding the issue but resolving it. Before the pandemic, we were meeting the targets of ensuring that people with disorders were seeing a specialist. Sadly, as a result of the pandemic, we have fallen behind. One of the reasons we are investing extra money in community health for adults and children now is to ensure that we catch up and make sure that people who are suffering with eating disorders are seen by clinicians who understand the issues and the differences between types of eating disorders, so that they are not misdiagnosed or given inappropriate information.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that, although we routinely associate eating disorders with adolescents in particular, they may have roots in adolescence but sometimes emerge very powerfully in later years. They are consequently a lot more difficult to diagnose and manage. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, used the word “manage” in talking about how these illnesses should be treated. It is a matter of concern that GPs in particular and hospital services are extremely overstretched. The long-term management of remitting and recurring eating disorders is very hard to sustain. Can the Minister tell us what the Government are doing about that?

Eating Disorders

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Monday 17th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point about how we identify children and young people who are suffering from these disorders or may be a few steps away from it. We know that there are programmes from the Department for Education and our department to tackle mental health issues in schools, identifying pupils and encouraging them to come forward, to talk to a counsellor in the school, and making sure that there is signposting in the right place to ensure that we can tackle their issues.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned that eating disorders do not always present in the same way. He will be aware that some fluctuate, moving from chronic to acute over a period and back again. When people seek treatment for eating disorders, at the moment those who can afford it are not even able to access treatment in the private sector. If they were able to, however, would they then be able to access NHS treatments at a later date, for example, should they not be able to afford to continue with private treatment?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a really important point. It is an issue that was raised over the weekend, in an individual case. I know that we are always advised as Ministers not to get involved in individual clinical decisions, but in this this case a child had not yet got a bed and the parents wanted to take them out for private treatment until a bed became available. They were told that if they went to use the private sector they would be put at the back of the list. I am trying to get more details on this but it seems a lack of common sense. I want to understand why it is happening, but I have not had an answer yet.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Thursday 13th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, this debate has shown clearly that attacking health inequalities must go beyond the bounds of the NHS as the impact of external factors is massive. I remind the Government that in 2015 poor housing alone was estimated to cost over £10 billion. That was in part because of the poor housing but it was compounded by inactivity and, as a result, obesity.

We should look at the antecedents of complex problems. Marie Curie’s report Dying in the Cold revealed failures in healthcare, bereavement and grief and the challenges of providing care for those with complex needs. Learning difficulties and autism, for which we often do not know the underlying causes, are disproportionately prevalent among people who are socially excluded and at high risk of homelessness, yet for them managing homelessness alone is particularly difficult because of their overall vulnerability. It has been estimated that autism alone has a twelvefold prevalence in those who are homeless compared to the general population.

The antecedents of many of the problems go back to childhood. They carry a life sentence of their trauma, which feeds into worsening health inequalities, aggravating factors such as alcohol and drugs consumption and other behaviours. Unless we strengthen the wording in the Bill to monitor and do something about the data that comes forward, the proposal of my noble friend Lord Kakkar—it is essential that we address this as a core problem to be tackled—will not be realised. I hope that when the Minister replies he will provide some assurance that the Government will consider strengthening the wording in the Bill in the light of this debate.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if I might be allowed to speak at this point for the simple reason that I am shortly due to take over from the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, in the Chair and if I do not contribute now, I will not be able to at all. I have no special expertise to bring to the scrutiny of the Bill, therefore this is the first time I have spoken on it and it may be the last. I want to speak in support of the contribution of my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport, right at the beginning of what has been a very long and extremely interesting debate but which, until recently, when my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley mentioned it, did not refer back to the points he raised.

In making my brief remarks, I draw attention to my own interests, which are mostly to do with the arts. I am thinking about what my noble friend Lord Howarth said about the arts sector and what it can contribute. I ask the Minister, when he comes to reply, if he would look to one side of his department—particularly towards the Department for Education and to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport—for further evidence, in addition to the very strong evidence my noble friend Lord Howarth put forward, of the impact of engagement with the arts, particularly on people suffering from often multiple disadvantages.

It is very clear that the data emerging in relation to education points to a strong impact on the health, particularly the mental health and well-being, of young people in education settings when they are able to engage creatively with the arts and arts practitioners. It would be very easy, in thinking about the huge diversity of issues that have been raised here which bear on health inequality, to see engagement with the arts as a “nice to have” extra—something that, if we get everything else right, we can perhaps add in. But it is more important than that, as the evidence is now strongly beginning to show. I therefore ask the Minister not to forget what my noble friend Lord Howarth said at the beginning of the debate in his reply, and to consider very seriously how health inequalities can be properly and creatively addressed by further engagement with the arts sector.

I will say one last thing, which perhaps seems not quite at the heart of it, but it is important. My noble friend Lord Howarth, in giving his examples, spoke about arts organisations, many of which are trying to contribute to this area. To be able to do that, they need people with skills who can deliver the work. Nearly all the people who can deliver the work and have those skills are freelancers. As we all know, they have suffered hugely in the last two years as a result of the crisis that we have all been through. Freelance workers in all sectors, but particularly the cultural sector, have had a very bad time and quite a lot of them have left. I add that as an additional thing to remember when we look at the expectations we can reasonably—and should—have of the arts sector. It needs to be able to properly support the people it has to engage to deliver the work that it can do.

Breast Screening

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I have previously announced government investment in retention programmes and looking at getting back those who have retired and increasing training places in medical schools and elsewhere.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, going back to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, could the Minister remind the House exactly what is the rationale for not including women over 70 in the screening programme, given that, as he has conceded, vulnerability to breast cancer increases with age?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The Marmot review found that screening women outside the ages of 50 to 70 could lead to overdiagnosis and to referring women for unnecessary tests and overtreatment. But women in other categories with a very high risk of breast cancer—those with a family history, for example—are often screened earlier and more frequently. Women are not automatically invited for breast cancer screening if over 71, but they can request screening themselves.

Covid-19 Update

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Yes. Given the advice on testing, especially if you are pinged and have to test, clearly we will make sure that there are sufficient tests available.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord say a word about enforcement? In my observation of the use of face masks on London transport, for example, compliance has increased significantly in the past week, so there is a disposition on the part of many people travelling to comply. But there are still a significant minority—and that minority is important—who do not comply and do not appear to carry or exhibit any evidence of exemption. Will people whose job it is to ensure that people on public transport or elsewhere are wearing masks get the help and guidance they need to understand where the limits of their powers might be?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Enforcement has been a constant concern throughout, and workers have been concerned about having to enforce. The police and certain transport operators may issue fixed penalty notices to those who refuse to wear a face covering when required to do so and are not exempt or do not have a reasonable excuse. This will be used only as a last resort. The fines will start at £200, which will be halved if paid within 14 days. For repeat offenders, the second offence will be £400, the third £800, the fourth £1,600, the fifth £3,200, and the sixth and subsequent offences £6,400. The price mechanism will be used as a deterrent, but I am sure that the authorities will exercise discretion, so they may give an informal warning first, as has happened. They can also take measures if members of the public do not comply with this law without a valid exemption. They can deny access to public transport services, and direct someone to wear a face covering or leave a service if they are not wearing one without a legitimate reason.

HIV and AIDS

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very important point of which we should all be aware. It is great that we are all living longer and, as I am sure noble Lords agree, that we are being sexually active for longer. The HIV plan sets out how we look at different—for want of a better word—segments or parts of different communities where there are issues, and how we target messaging there. That is the most important thing, rather than trying to have a one size fits all that others could ignore.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, there has been a huge amount of progress in the last 30 years since—I think I may say my noble friend—my noble friend Lord Fowler did his good work. But there is still work to do in this country. I noted that the Minister proudly referred to there being perhaps less stigma in this country than elsewhere. It is true that we have no room for complacency in this regard and that this is still one of the main reasons why people who should be tested are not being tested. Can the Minister tell the House the Government’s current assessment of the infected but untested rate of HIV/AIDS in this country?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am afraid I do not have a specific figure for the noble Baroness, but the action plan sets out how we are going to increase access to and scale up HIV testing, by focusing on populations and settings where testing rates have not been high to ensure that we tackle them, that new infections are identified rapidly and that people receive the necessary treatment faster to prevent complications. We will operate the annual HIV Testing Week between 7 and 11 February 2022, and the campaign will be called “It starts with me”. During that week we will open self-sampling HIV testing services for all residents of England, and we want to make sure that lots of different programmes are raising awareness. I know that a number of noble Lords across the House take this issue seriously and I would welcome their advice.

Food (Promotion and Placement) (England) Regulations 2021

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Grand Committee

The Government want to make the healthier choice the easier one and to support people to lead healthier lives. Together with food companies, supermarkets and health professionals, the Government hope to create an environment to empower consumers to make better choices and to live longer lives in better health. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will contribute virtually as the Liberal Democrat Front-Bencher at the appropriate point in the debate.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and the Government for the initiative, which I would describe as making tentative moves to try to reduce the growth of obesity. I declare an interest as vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Obesity, and I am grateful to the Obesity Health Alliance, which has recently produced a very wide-ranging and thorough examination of the problem. I am grateful to it for the briefing.

It is worth remembering that the last serious attempt to tackle this was after the coalition Government came into power in 2010-11, when an alcohol strategy was drawn up and there was an engagement between government and the private sector, and the many representatives of the health business, if I can describe it like that, who were anxious to see changes effected. We had the creation of the responsibility deal, which ran from 2011 through to 2015, when it collapsed. The health officials were unhappy about the way in which the agenda was being run, and in 2013 many of them withdrew because they felt that the private sector—the manufacturers and retailers—were controlling the agenda and that public health was rather lower down the line than profits. So it went in 2015, and since then we have had very little change, apart from a growth in obesity.

On the alcohol front, on which we have spoken from time to time, apart from with youngsters there continues to be a problem there, with more and more people going into hospital and more and more people dying from liver problems. The real concern here has been with the growth in obesity among youngsters. We have been at this since 2006, when the Labour Government first kicked it off with the national measurement scheme. Initially, the idea was that we would engage over a very wide area, but because of the continuing cuts that have taken place in public expenditure at local level, it has not really made a great deal of headway. We have had a fallow period, with many of us complaining over the years, but it would be churlish not to say that I welcome this move, although that is not to say that I am going overboard over what the Government are proposing.

I have a number of questions. It has taken us six years—seven years, really, since it will be 2022 by the time we finish the consultation with the parties involved and this is put into effect—but the document talks about waiting another five years to do a review. Unless I have misunderstood, it will be five years before it is fully reviewed again. Could you correct me if I am wrong or, if I am right, explain why we have to wait another five years, which means that we will have run from 2010 to 2027 before we really look at some of the serious proposals made by the Government?

Secondly, I would like to know who is covered by the square footage provision. Obviously, hypermarkets and supermarkets are covered, but I would like to know whether convenience stores are also covered. I live in Battersea, near the bridge, and next to us we have a local co-op that does extraordinarily good business. Would it qualify to be covered by the changes that are proposed? I cannot remember the figure, but it may be 1,200 square feet. I would be grateful if the Minister could say whether convenience stores fall into it, because they are major retailers in this context as they sell nearly half as much as the supermarkets do. If they are not covered, it will be a major omission and something that we would want to return to.

Thirdly, I listen carefully to everything the Minister says as he finds his way with his new brief. At his first Questions, he talked about unintended consequences and said that it is very important when we are making changes that we try to foresee them. I am particularly interested in seeing how retailers effectively drive a coach and horses through so many areas of legislation with their ability to place their goods in a position which sells them best for them but on the other hand brings them to the attention of children, in particular.

Again, I mention my local Co-op. No longer can people see cigarettes. They are hidden. It took years to get that changed, but it is a worthy development that was put through by the Government. When I go in, I am now surrounded by alcohol. We have all this about advertising, thresholds and the rest of it, yet when children stand in the queue to buy their Mars bars in the Co-op, they are surrounded by alcohol and, on the other side, by doughnuts and a host of sweeties which are attractive to them and which, as we know, are at the heart of the growth of obesity. I wonder whether the Government have thought through what will go in place of the movement of some of these articles which are presently being sold, which have been identified as being very risky from a health point of view. If they do not cover it, I suspect we will find, for example, that alcohol goes there, which is what has happened previously. I know that is not about child obesity, but none the less it relates to obesity, as 10% of all obesity comes from the sugar in alcohol. So we are continuing with the same problem, especially given that we still do not have any indication on alcohol. You queue there, and there is no indication of the sugar content or the calorific effects in the drinks. Perhaps the Minister might say what the Government are intending to do about that. I know it is not in this document, but it is all interrelated with obesity, and we cannot separate it too much.

In another initiative, trying to be as positive as I can be with the Committee, Sir Keith Mills, who was responsible for Air Miles and Nectar points, has been doing a special piece of work for the Prime Minister and has come up with a number of trials. Is there a correlation between the work that will be put in place in this document and what he is endeavouring to do in incentivisation? I may sound negative, but I believe in incentives to encourage people to eat and drink better and I believe in trying to find incentives in which the private sector, particularly retailers, will not to try to take advantage but will work together so that we will see positive incentives offered to them to effect changes in the formulation of food and the way in which they present drink and food in retailing terms. Is there a link between the activities he is undertaking?

Finally, can we see more experimentation? I am very pleased that Sir Keith Mills is doing that. Wherever we can try to engage with those who are interested in the private sector, we should try to get joint working taking place where, if the Government see it works yet the private sector does not want it, they will do what they are doing today. I hope they will stick to their guns, legislate and make the changes stick rather than change their mind and run away under pressure from the industry.

Covid-19 Update

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness, not only for her question but for the conversations that we have had to help my understanding of the subject and the consequences of some of these actions. I welcome the expertise from across the House when it comes to a number of health-related issues.

The consultation quite clearly said that many felt that vaccines remain our best defence against Covid-19 and that the vaccination programme has prevented thousands of hospitalisations and deaths in the UK. The more staff who are vaccinated against Covid-19, the more likely it will be that vulnerable people in their care, and other colleagues, are protected. Several studies have provided evidence that vaccines are effective at preventing infection and transmission—and beyond preventing infection have an additional benefit of reduced transmission by those individuals who become infected despite vaccination because of a reduced duration or level of viral shedding.

On the specific question, I am sure that the noble Baroness recognises—as I know from when we discussed these issues—how complex this issue is. There are ethical and health issues, and the concerns of patients and their families, who feel much more comfortable about being treated by staff who are vaccinated.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I think that there are probably very few people, apart from hardened anti-vaxxers, who do not accept that vaccination is good and that it has done a huge amount to reduce the impact of the pandemic, which has had such devastating effects. However, following on from the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, it would appear likely that there will be not unintended but predictable and intended consequences as a result of this policy, which is that some NHS staff, and, more immediately, some social care staff, will simply give up doing what they do. In those circumstances, what advice is the Minister or his Government offering, particularly to private sector care homes, as to what they should do if faced with staff losses other than simply to reduce their capacity to take in new patients?

I noticed that the Minister did not pick up the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, about the example that people in public life—I name nobody in particular—can set by wearing their masks, appropriately, on all occasions when it is sensible to do so. What encouragement can he offer to the rest of us about further examples being set on that front?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

There clearly are concerns. These were expressed in the stakeholder engagement that occurred with both the social care sector and other sectors that will need to bring this in from March next year—we are bringing it in now but with a grace period until next March. A lot of this engagement and consultation discussed how we can support staff who are unwilling to be vaccinated as well as understanding their concerns and whether employers see these as legitimate.

Thinking back to the beginning of the crisis, one of the reasons this was called for in care homes as quickly as possible was the data from the early part of the pandemic, when there were a disproportionate number of deaths in care homes. A number of people, including patient groups and families of patients, were quite adamant that if their relatives were in a care home, they wanted to make sure that they were being looked after by staff who had been vaccinated.

There is another vaccine that is a condition of deployment, that for hepatitis B. I have asked medical staff whether they are concerned about this and a number have said no, because they are already compelled to have the vaccine for hepatitis B. That is a condition of deployment and staff see this vaccine as just as essential. That assuaged some of the concerns I had over compulsion. These are difficult, unprecedented times. We would not ordinarily want to go with compulsion, but the health of the nation is at risk and many people want to feel much more reassured that they, or their family members who are receiving care, are looked after by people who have been vaccinated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for pressing on that point, as a number of others have. I am assured that the Prime Minister and his team followed all the rules that they were required to follow in that hospital, whether about face masks or otherwise. This is what I have been informed and it is all I can report.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

Since we have a little time left, could I ask the Minister to go back to the question of the support that care homes, hospitals and other healthcare settings may need in the not unlikely event that they will lose staff as a result of this policy? I completely understand that vaccination is highly desirable and that the intention is to encourage people to be vaccinated. However, it is pretty clear that some will not be and that will have an impact. What support will be on offer in healthcare settings to people who are having to cope with the impact of losing staff as a result of this policy?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

In consultation with the social care sector and the wider NHS, including trusts, discussions have looked at the impact and what would happen, but also how to make the message more positive, how to encourage staff to take up vaccines and how to listen to their concerns. In some cases, employers have said that they do not feel that staff have given a legitimate reason for not taking up the vaccine, but they are also under pressure from patients’ families to make sure that they employ care staff who have been vaccinated. They are trying all the different areas of persuasion, including targeted campaigns and one-to-one conversations in some cases, to encourage them as much as possible. At the end of the day, even before the introduction of vaccinations as a condition of deployment, many care homes were already trying to push their staff to take vaccinations because they are concerned about their patients.

Covid-19: Plan B

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am sure the noble Baroness will appreciate that all these issues are not necessarily binary, and that there are often a number of trade-offs, not only between economic and health factors but also within the health community itself. For example, there have been warnings that if we go down the route of more restrictive measures, we will see an increase both in patients who are unable to have the surgery that they had planned and in mental health cases.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, taking the Minister back to the answer he gave to my noble friend Lord Rooker, on the issue of mask wearing, the evidence seems to be that wearing a mask does have an impact on whether viruses are transmitted, and in this case there is efficacy in respect not only of Covid-19 but of other viruses which could be circulating at this time of year and themselves putting pressure on the NHS. What is it that the Government cannot bear about asking people to wear masks? It has no economic cost, costs very little in terms of inconvenience and has a very significant impact.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I assure the noble Baroness that plan B does involve legally mandating face coverings in certain settings, such as public transport and shops. I am sure many noble Lords will have recognised, when they are travelling in by public transport, the number of people wearing masks on public transport, even though advice by the transport companies has dropped.