Children and Families Bill

Debate between Earl Attlee and Baroness Eaton

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for moving her amendment, although initially I thought it did not have the effect that she desired. Children and young people should be placed in the right setting to meet their needs. It is right that if the appropriate setting is in either Scotland or Northern Ireland, local authorities should have the power to place children and young people there and meet or contribute to the costs of the placement. The Bill as drafted would allow for such placements.

In line with what the noble Baroness said, Clause 58 is drafted in the way it is, mentioning England and Wales in particular, because the Bill covers England and Wales. Clause 58 allows local authorities to place children and young people with EHC plans anywhere else in the world, including Scotland and Northern Ireland, and to meet or contribute to the costs of the placement. I acknowledge the noble Baroness’s point about the costs, but they can still do it. There are a very few cases where children have been placed outside the UK. Unfortunately, the effect of the noble Baroness’ amendment would be that local authorities would still be able to place children and young people in schools or colleges in Scotland and Northern Ireland but they would not be able to pay or contribute towards the costs.

On the noble Baroness’s aim of specifying the limits of what local authorities are expected to provide, she is right to seek to clarify the extent of local authorities’ responsibilities for arranging provision outside the UK. As she said, this is a power, not a duty. It replicates the current arrangement and does not place a demand on local authorities. I hope, with that explanation, the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment in due course.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

I found it interesting that the Minister said that very few people use the opportunity to be placed abroad. If it is on the face of the Bill to this extent, it might become more attractive to want to go further afield. It might become a fashion to seek support from other countries, where sometimes we hear of innovative things that are not necessarily proven. I would be seriously concerned—knowing that local authorities could potentially have huge black holes in years to come—about how on earth this will be funded. Even if it involves only a few children, it will be a sizeable bill. When local authorities are in danger of going bankrupt in some places, it is inappropriate to impose an open-ended commitment on them. I realise that it is an option—it is not something that is being forced on local authorities—but it will cause huge issues when people are refused the opportunity if they wish for it.