Independent Sentencing Review

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Timpson

Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The noble Lord is exactly right that housing is a key factor in the potential for someone to reoffend and go back to prison. We need to make sure that, when people leave prison, they do not have the initials NFA against their name, because they need somewhere to live.

On community sentences, there are very good examples of effective alternatives. For example, community sentence treatment requirements tackle the root causes of offending, and recipients of mental health treatment requirements were 9 percentage points less likely to reoffend compared to those on short custodial sentences. The £700 million of extra funding is absolutely vital, and will go an awful long way to making sure that we can deliver the service that our hard-working probation staff need. They know exactly what to do, but they have often been restricted in what opportunities they have. I am very determined to make sure that, when we offer community services, they are sentences that work, so that when people start on them they then go on to live a crime-free life.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is it correct that in the United Kingdom we have the highest rate of incarceration in Europe and are exceeded only by the United States? When did officials at the offender management units at MoJ realise that we were definitely going to run out of prison places? Was it in this Parliament or was it at some point in the previous Parliament? Finally, is there any hope that the Minister will make some noticeable reform to our custodial system?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The amount of prison places that we will be building will mean that there are even more people in prison than ever before. We will build 14,000 places by 2031, which will mean that there is a large amount more space for offenders to go in. On the day I arrived in the Ministry of Justice, I had thought that it would be a day of celebration and that I would be home within an hour, but I was there for about six hours, meeting officials who were clearly concerned that we were about to run out of space, again. That is why I am delighted that David Gauke’s review has been presented to Parliament. We need to make sure that it works together with the review that Brian Leveson is carrying out, which I hope will be published soon. It is not one or the other; both are needed, as well as the investment in building new prison places to resolve the crisis that we have. It is really important to me that this is the last time we have a crisis. We need to make sure that we have a long-term and sustainable prison system.

Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Requisite and Minimum Custodial Periods) Order 2024

Debate between Earl Attlee and Lord Timpson

Monday 29th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their valuable contributions to this important debate, and I look forward to answering as many questions as I can. I will of course go back and look at Hansard, and if there is anything I have not answered, I will endeavour to write. As noble Lords have already pointed out, I have had quite a busy few days and I am learning fast, so I ask your Lordships to please bear with me if I am not quite as smooth as other noble Lords have been today.

I will start with the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, on recall. Recall is used only when necessary to protect the public. I see no reason to believe that it is being used inappropriately. This week, I went to two prisons to meet the offender management units to see how they were getting on with the important work they are doing. While they were very busy, I got the distinct feeling that they were on top of things and very much prepared for the hard work.

The noble Lord, Lord Beith, mentioned remand. We are very aware that the remand population has seen significant growth, and it is a significant issue. It has grown from about 9,000 to 16,000 prisoners. However, making changes to the remand cohort in a way that respects the individual decision by the judiciary will take time to implement. Unfortunately, we do not have much time.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, the noble Lords, Lord Deben, Lord Beith and Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, talked about who goes to prison. I thought I would mention the sentencing review that we are planning. That will take place as soon as possible. That will, I hope, be an opportunity for noble Lords to discuss and debate where we are going on sentencing.

One point raised by a number of noble Lords was around IPP prisoners. That is not something that is covered by this instrument. If it is satisfactory, I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, with the exact detail, because this is so new to me and I do not want to get anything wrong at this early stage of my career in this House. IPP prisoners is an area that troubles me deeply. I have been going to prisons for over 20 years, and every time I go into an establishment, I always try to sit in a cell and talk to a man or a woman who is an IPP prisoner. In fact, I sat next to an IPP prisoner on Thursday. They all have a different story. Most of them suffer from multiple challenges; most of them feel lost; many of them are institutionalised. We have a duty to help them live a law-abiding life outside, but it is challenging. We are making progress, and this is one of the areas I want to make further progress on quickly. I assure noble Lords that it is at the top of my in-tray every day.

On the subject of prison building, which the noble Lord, Lord Beith, talked about, it is important, and we are committed to building new modern and safe prisons. For me, one of the advantages of new prisons is that they have the facilities required to help people gain skills and education, so that when they are released they have the skills and confidence that make them more attractive to an employer.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, asked what I meant by “stabilised”. Even though I have been going round prisons for many years, I have been trying to remember when I last felt that a prison was stable. It was probably the category D prisons, up until the last year, where they often had spare capacity and you felt that they were very much on the right side of panic. However, where a prison is 99% full, it is very difficult for the prison staff and probation staff to adequately educate and train, and to have time for those quiet conversations on the wings between prison officers and prisoners, which are sometimes very important turning points in someone’s life. I have worked alongside many colleagues who have left prison, and very often the story they tell me is that their lives were not turned around by family or friends but by a kind prison officer who gave them their time.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, spoke about mental health. We have a broad failure across many of our public services, including the health service. One of the things that is very important to me as I progress in this role is to support our health professionals to work with our offenders, inside and outside prison. These people have failed society but often society has failed them too, and they often need support to overcome their health problems, especially around addiction.

The noble Earl, Lord Courtown, talked about the impact on communities when people leave prison and how society will cope with that. We are recruiting 1,000 extra probation officers; although they will not be in place completely until March next year, it is an important step. What we want to achieve is a reduction in reoffending. To me, what is important from this job is to help people not to reoffend, because that reduces crime, we have fewer victims, it costs less money and it means fewer wasted lives. The plan at the moment is for the release point to go to 40%, and when we are satisfied that the capacity problem is resolved, it will go back to 50%, We will publish every quarter an update on how this scheme is running. Not all prisoners leaving prison will go on tag; it will depend on whether the professionals deem it to be appropriate. As I said on Wednesday, I will test one of the tags myself to see what it is like, and will report back to noble Lords.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister should make sure that it is not a sobriety tag.