Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, unlike the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, we welcome the Independent Sentencing Review. We also applaud the appointment of David Gauke to lead it. He was an inspired and independent choice and, despite some reservations with the report, we regard the tenor of the review as brave, principled and, most importantly, evidence based.
We also agree with the Government in their Statement that the previous Administration are largely responsible for the crisis in our prisons—our running out of prison space, the dilapidation of our prison estate, the ineffective approach to rehabilitation, to community sentences and to the Probation Service, and the continuing pervasive recidivism. These are the factors that got us into this mess, and they are largely the previous Government’s fault. The irony is that the previous Government claimed to be dedicated to law and order, just as the noble and learned Lord does now. Well, that is not their legacy.
Given the present position, on present trends and given the prison building plans—they are extensive, but there will inevitably be delays in their implementation—can the Government realistically hope to avoid the kind of stopgap emergency responses that we have found necessary over the last year?
Moving on, the proposals for three-part prison sentences and an earned progression model are persuasive. It is interesting that they originated in Texas—not a state known for soft liberalism. My understanding is that the Texan Government believed that these crime reduction measures would save the taxpayers’ dollar. Have the Government yet estimated the possible cost savings from these proposals overall?
We agree that we desperately need the increased investment in probation and probably even more investment. We regard the commitment to more tagging and community monitoring as clearly sensible. But I would be grateful if the Minister could say how far it is envisaged that tagged offenders will be confined to their homes, and what plans there are for work, education and training for offenders while they are tagged and under supervision.
Capping recalls to prison should prevent the use of recall to respond to relatively minor breaches of conditions with extended and disproportionate prison terms, but how will the individual length of these short recalls be determined? We on these Benches, along with the majority of experts in the field, have been arguing for years for a reduction in the use of short prison sentences, and I can see the argument for leaving some judicial discretion in place in certain circumstances. I see the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, nodding, and I know that he has had experience of short sentencing in his time as a magistrate. But we also agree that victims of domestic abusers and stalkers, and cases of breaches of protection orders, call for particular protection for victims. Nevertheless, may we have an assurance that, in practice, this reform will give the presumption against short sentences that we have long been seeking?
We accept the argument for making community sentences tougher and for intensive supervision courts, but we seek an assurance that the primary purpose of community sentences will continue to be to rehabilitate offenders and enable them to turn their lives around. We have concerns about the pilot of so-called medication to manage problematic sexual arousal, with its rather troubling overtones of chemical castration. Will the Government commit to careful monitoring of the long-term effects of such treatment?
Finally, we share the Government’s commitment to supporting victims, and that shines through this Statement. My noble friend Lady Brinton has been at the forefront of securing more compassionate treatment of victims, and the exclusion zones proposed will be an important new protection. But may we also have a commitment to making the criminal justice system more approachable and less traumatic for victims, particularly in cases of sexual violence? We have had some progress in this area but not nearly enough, hence the loss of so many cases. That would be a helpful complement for the Government’s principled commitment to ensure that women are less often sent to prison, and that women defendants are more compassionately treated by the criminal justice system.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)
My Lords, when this Government asked David Gauke and his independent expert panel to conduct a review of sentencing, its task was clear: our country must never run out of prison places again. I put on record my appreciation for all the panel’s work, including that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, who is well known and respected in this place.
In considering its proposals, the Independent Sentencing Review has followed the evidence and looked at examples of good practice across the world. It is clear to me, as someone who has been searching for answers to these well-known problems for over 20 years, that the panel has carefully and methodically approached the challenges head-on. This review sets out major reform. It is an important moment for the justice sector, and one we cannot afford to ignore.
As the Lord Chancellor has set out, once again our prisons are running out of space. Let me be clear that we must always have space in our prisons for dangerous offenders. Despite building as quickly as we can, demand for prison places will still outstrip supply by 9,500 cells in early 2028. If our prisons collapse, courts must suspend trials, police must halt arrests and crime goes unpunished; we face the total breakdown of law and order in this country. Yet the previous Government, over 14 years, added just 500 places to our prison estate. At the same time, sentence lengths rose. It now falls to this Government to end this cycle of crisis.
That starts by building prisons. Since taking office just 11 months ago, this Government have opened 2,400 places. Last month, the Lord Chancellor announced an additional £4.7 billion for prison building, putting us on track to hit 14,000 places by 2031. This is the largest expansion since the Victorian era. However, the investment is vital, but it is still not sufficient. We need to do more. We cannot just build our way out of this crisis. This Government have been clear: we also need to both reform sentencing and end the cycle of reoffending.
The report’s central recommendation—the move to a three-part sentence called the “earned progression model”—means that offenders will not necessarily leave prison at an automatic point. Instead, their release date will be determined by their behaviour. Under the new model, offenders serving standard determinate sentences with an automatic release of 40% or 50% will now earn their release. The earliest possible release point will be at the one-third mark, with additional time added for bad behaviour. For those serving standard determinate sentences with an automatic release point of 67%, their earliest possible release point will be at 50%, with additional time added for bad behaviour. If they follow prison rules and behave well, they will earn an earlier release; if they do not, they will be locked up for longer. It is that simple.
That behaviour-based approach echoes the model that the Lord Chancellor witnessed in Texas. I have personally been fascinated by the Texan model for a number of years and have followed the outcomes achieved very closely, as the noble Lord, Lord Marks, clearly has as well. If you are a prison geek like me, this is what you seek: examples of what works—and it clearly does work. Its reforms, which started in 2007, have led to 16 prisons closing, to fewer victims and to lower costs of reoffending.
To address the concerns of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, about these reforms applying to dangerous offenders, I assure noble Lords that these reforms will not apply to those serving extended determinate sentences, which includes the most dangerous offenders. I confirm that no sentences being served for terror offences or state threat sentences will be eligible for early release from prison. I can also confirm that the Government engaged with police colleagues and other stakeholders across the criminal justice system prior to the publication of the review, as did David Gauke. We wanted to ensure that we had a joined-up approach. The full detail of these policies, including an impact assessment, will accompany the forthcoming legislation.
Noble Lords have rightly raised questions about what these reforms will mean for victims, particularly victims of domestic abuse. My priority is clear: everything we do is in pursuit of a justice system that serves victims. If our prisons collapse, it is victims who pay the price. Our first responsibility is to make sure that this does not happen, which is why we consulted widely, as has David Gauke, with victims’ groups.
The review recommends several important measures, including the way we identify domestic abusers at sentencing so that we can monitor and manage them more effectively. We recognise how vital it is to make sure that we know who all domestic abuse offenders are, even when their offences are not obviously linked to domestic abuse. We also welcome the recommendation to expand the use of specialist domestic abuse courts. I also clarify for the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that the review did not recommend entirely abolishing short sentences. Under our proposed reforms, judges will retain the discretion to hand down short custodial sentences in exceptional circumstances, and I note that David Gauke’s review specifically references this, including giving respite to victims of domestic abuse.
To improve transparency in the system, we will also extend the provision of free sentencing remark transcripts for victims of rape and serious sexual offences. All these are necessary steps that I believe show that this Government have recognised the unique harms caused by violence against women and girls. Further steps will be outlined when, in the summer, we publish our 10-year cross-government strategy on violence against women and girls.
Noble Lords raised important questions about public protection and the role of probation. The Government recognise probation’s important role. In fact, it is more than important; it is vital. That is why we are increasing funding for probation by up to £700 million by the final year of the spending review—an increase of 45%. That will allow us to tag and monitor tens of thousands more offenders, which the evidence has shown cuts crime and makes our streets safer.
If we are to see more punishment in the community, it is essential that it works. That is why we are looking at new severe financial penalties that would see offenders’ assets seized even if they are not knowingly linked to crime, and expand the use of punishments, such as travel and driving bans, that would curtail an offender’s liberty.
I particularly draw noble Lords’ attention to the recommendation to expand intensive supervision courts. These impose tough conditions, including treatment requirements, with offenders regularly brought before a judge to monitor their compliance. If they do not play ball, the offenders get sent straight to prison. Intensive supervision courts work, especially with prolific offenders. Visiting the court in Birmingham remains the best day I have had in this job—I saw how it helps turn lives away from crime.
I also draw noble Lords’ attention to David Gauke’s recommendations relating to female offenders. My interest in prison started many years ago, when coming face to face with the realities of many women in our prisons. Too many women are victims of considerable trauma and abuse. They are vulnerable, addicted and mentally ill. Many are also mothers, and their imprisonment has life-changing impacts not only for them but for their children. Around two-thirds of female offenders sentenced to custody receive short sentences, and around the same number are victims of domestic abuse. I proudly chair the Women’s Justice Board, which we set up last year with the aim of closing a women’s prison and addressing the specific needs of this cohort. I am pleased to note that the review’s recommendations on short, deferred and suspended sentences will reduce the number of women in prison. This is an important step towards that objective.
I will inform noble Lords about some of the other areas of our focus to address the capacity crisis. The number of offenders recalled to prison has doubled since 2018, putting increasing pressure on the system. Today’s figure is around 13,000. The sentencing review makes sensible recommendations to address this increase, and it is suggested that, where offenders do not comply with the conditions of their release, recall to prison should be capped at 56 days. We have agreed to this policy in principle and will set out the precise details of these changes when we legislate.
In conclusion, in our response to the sentencing review, this Government will take the steps necessary to end the enduring capacity crisis we inherited and end the cycle of reoffending. To do that, we must agree with others that we have to build prisons on a historic scale, deport foreign national offenders faster than ever and speed up our courts. But we also must reform sentencing in a way that puts the justice system on a more sustainable footing. We now have the right ideas, the long-term funding and a Government determined to resolve this long-term crisis for good. I invite noble Lords to engage with me as we pursue this much-needed reform.
Lord Howard of Lympne (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving me some advance indication of the proposals in the government Statement, but does he not agree that sentences of imprisonment, including short sentences, are almost invariably imposed by the courts only as a matter of last resort? Is it not the case that, by seeking to curtail the use of short sentences of imprisonment, the Government risk frustrating and demoralising the magistrates who perform such outstanding public service and exacerbating the increase in crime, which the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and others have said will be an inevitable consequence of the Government’s proposals?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
To be clear, courts will retain discretion to impose short custodial sentences for offenders who have breached a court order. So 12 months or fewer is not banned; it is in exceptional circumstances, including the breach of any VAWG-related protective order—for example, restraining orders, non-molestation orders and stalking protection orders. But courts will also be able to impose a sentence of immediate custody when there are exceptional circumstances that would not justify passing a suspended sentence. A large amount of evidence suggests that reoffending levels are higher for people who go to prison on short sentences than for those who serve tough community sentences instead.
Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
My Lords, I broadly support the Gauke review, which tries to address two major problems that have caused our prison population to get out of control. One of those is increased sentencing. I cannot remember a political party represented here today that has promised in any election that it would reduce sentences. They have all competed to give high sentences, and I am not sure that it has had the effect desired—of course, with some offences. The second is obviously the decrease in the amount of parole available. This review attempts to do something about the latter, and I broadly support it.
I wonder whether the Minister will agree with me on three points about which I am concerned. I agree partly with the noble Lord, Lord Howard. I know that the Government have proposed to entirely remove the shorter sentences, but they should be really careful which ones they entirely remove. More important is the phasing of this: how would those people come out, in what groups and in what numbers?
That links to the second point, about policing and probation resources. I agree with the Government increasing probation spending, but it will not all be spent at once and people will not all arrive experienced and able. How do we match those two things so that the police and probation are prepared effectively for that mass release?
Finally, there is a real opportunity here. I agree with tagging. To those who say that people commit offences with tagging, I would say that, in general, they commit fewer offences. If the tagging is linked to their offending behaviour, such as with sobriety, and if it can limit where they go and do not go, it can have an effect. At the moment, those tags go to a commercial company and not directly to the police service. Surely the time has come to create a separate body to monitor those tags and react immediately when there are breaches. I am not convinced that that happens at the moment.
Lord Timpson (Lab)
I appreciate the noble Lord’s support for the general direction of travel of the sentencing review. We will continue to work with the police and others on any impacts on the wider justice system—that is very important. However, the alternative is that we run out of prison places, and the last thing that our police want or need is to have no prison places. It is very important that we make sure that we have enough prison places to rely on, so that, in future, the police have confidence that they can go about their job.
As for the short custodial sentences, MoJ research found that custodial sentences of less than 12 months were associated with higher reoffending rates compared to court orders of any length. That is why we need to make sure that we get the balance right. Tagging has recently been shown to cut reoffending rates by 20%, but what is also interesting is the future of tagging. With the way in which technology is developing, I envisage that the role of tagging and wrist-worn technology will mean that the role of probation becomes far easier and we can do far more, not just to track offenders in the community but to check whether they are consuming alcohol or drugs or whether they are in the wrong place, and so on. With electronic tagging, we need to make sure that we support our probation staff, but I am very interested in the future of the technology too.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
It is particularly welcome that the Government have accepted that community sentences are far more effective at reducing reoffending than are short sentences. Will the Minister accept that, if we want to further improve the levels of reoffending and increase public confidence, a community sentence programme will need to have far more investment than the very welcome £700 million for the Probation Service? Can he assure us that funds will also be made available for support services such as for housing, mental health, and drug and alcohol and gambling problems? Will that money be forthcoming?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
The noble Lord is exactly right that housing is a key factor in the potential for someone to reoffend and go back to prison. We need to make sure that, when people leave prison, they do not have the initials NFA against their name, because they need somewhere to live.
On community sentences, there are very good examples of effective alternatives. For example, community sentence treatment requirements tackle the root causes of offending, and recipients of mental health treatment requirements were 9 percentage points less likely to reoffend compared to those on short custodial sentences. The £700 million of extra funding is absolutely vital, and will go an awful long way to making sure that we can deliver the service that our hard-working probation staff need. They know exactly what to do, but they have often been restricted in what opportunities they have. I am very determined to make sure that, when we offer community services, they are sentences that work, so that when people start on them they then go on to live a crime-free life.
Earl Attlee (Con)
My Lords, is it correct that in the United Kingdom we have the highest rate of incarceration in Europe and are exceeded only by the United States? When did officials at the offender management units at MoJ realise that we were definitely going to run out of prison places? Was it in this Parliament or was it at some point in the previous Parliament? Finally, is there any hope that the Minister will make some noticeable reform to our custodial system?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
The amount of prison places that we will be building will mean that there are even more people in prison than ever before. We will build 14,000 places by 2031, which will mean that there is a large amount more space for offenders to go in. On the day I arrived in the Ministry of Justice, I had thought that it would be a day of celebration and that I would be home within an hour, but I was there for about six hours, meeting officials who were clearly concerned that we were about to run out of space, again. That is why I am delighted that David Gauke’s review has been presented to Parliament. We need to make sure that it works together with the review that Brian Leveson is carrying out, which I hope will be published soon. It is not one or the other; both are needed, as well as the investment in building new prison places to resolve the crisis that we have. It is really important to me that this is the last time we have a crisis. We need to make sure that we have a long-term and sustainable prison system.
Lord Bach (Lab)
From these Benches, first, I congratulate the Minister in particular for the difference that he has made in his time at the Ministry of Justice. It has been a breath of fresh air, and it is about time that a Government of either party or all parties have the courage to take on this issue. Of course, the danger for a party in taking on this issue is that the other party or parties will immediately seize on it and use it for populist effect. That has to stop—it has gone on for too long and it ruins the system.
What I am particularly concerned about is the Probation Service, because how it has been treated in the past few years is, frankly, scandalous. It has been run down and has not been able to do the very difficult and vital job that it is there to do. Can the Minister ensure, please, that the Probation Service, which is at the heart of this change if it is to be successful, is properly funded and given every support—all the support that it has lacked for so many years?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for his comments. It has been the biggest privilege of my life to be given this role, and to be in your Lordships’ House to debate these crucial reforms to sentencing. I have been involved in and around the sector for most of my working life, and I have seen too many great ideas get ignored, too many wither on the vine and too many go unfunded.
I counted up the number of Prison Ministers I had met before being handed the keys to what was once their office, and it was 14, over just 20 years. I am not sure whether that happened because they enjoyed the role so much that they wanted to move on to another one or because it was too challenging and they wanted to find an easier role elsewhere, but, for me, this is the job that I have come in to do, and I am absolutely delighted that David Gauke and the panel have come up with the ideas that they have.
My noble friend is 100% right about the Probation Service. That is where the heavy lifting is done, and it is at the heart of the system. If you do not get probation funded and operating properly, the rest does not work either. I have met so many amazing probation staff who know exactly what they need to do but feel that they have not been supported enough over the years and that they spend too much time on administration and not enough time face to face with offenders, helping them turn their lives around—and that is the job that they signed up to do.
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven (CB)
My Lords, I very strongly agree with what the Minister has just said, and I declare an interest in that a close relative of mine works in the Probation Service. It is demoralised, underfunded and depressed, and that will have to change urgently, although, of course, getting probation officers into positions of experience takes time.
I strongly welcome this report and its findings. Does the Minister agree that of all the statistics bandied around on the topic of reoffending, perhaps the most striking is that no less than 39.3% of inmates reoffend within 12 months of their release from custody? That is the point at which the intensive provision part of the three-stage system will kick in. The period when those prisoners who are most at risk of reoffending are being engaged with by the Probation Service and by rehabilitation services will be key to this working, and if that is not got right, the reform will not be got right. As the Minister says, the Probation Service is central to this. Is he confident that he is going to be able to secure sufficient funds to create the sort of transformation that will be required for this scheme to work?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
I am learning how this business works, and when you go to the Treasury, you ask for what you want and then, in our case, we are happy with what we need to do the job. The £700 million is significant and will make a difference, but on top of that, we need to recruit more probation staff, which we are doing. We need to train them really well, and we are doing a review into training. We also need to support them, because the noble Lord is right: 39% of people reoffending is far too high and means more victims as well.
One of the things I learned is that employment makes a huge difference to people when they leave prison. One of the things I tried to do was to interview people when they were in prison, so they started working for me the next day. When I started employment advisory boards, 14% of prisoners had a job after six months. With the work of so many local business leaders and the third sector, that figure is now well over 30%. Those people in a job are far less likely to reoffend.
The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming the publication of the review. My friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester regrets that she is not able to be in her place today, but I know that she has been raising many of the issues addressed in this review over several years. It is heartening that the review has looked at creative alternatives to prison that are rigorous and yet also address the root causes of people committing crimes in the first place, and has proposed effective ways of preventing people entering cycles of criminality and reoffending, as well as strengthening and protecting communities, which is in the interest of victims on all sides.
I have no doubt that my friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester will want to continue to engage with the Minister and others as the Government respond to the review. But what role does the Minister believe the third sector, including faith groups, might continue to play in light of the review’s recommendation to expand the support offered by the third sector to offenders on community sentences and on licence?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester has been very vocal and supportive of many of the suggestions I have been working on, not just now but before I came into this position. The role of the third sector, both in prison and in the community, is vital. One thing that has been missed is that the spending review now being a three-year deal makes a big difference to third-sector partners, who find it very difficult to rely on a one-year cycle. I am hoping that the relationships we have built up over many years will now be far more confident relationships, both ways, because third-sector partners will be able to have confidence and a longer-term view of their commitment to working with us.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
My Lords, the Minister used the word “compassionate”, and other noble Lords have used that word in reference to sentencing, particularly of women, and to the effect on their families. Does he appreciate that many people do not understand how, for a simple tweet—an appalling tweet—Lucy Connolly got 31 months, while the next month, somebody who raped a young woman was sentenced to half that time?
Lord Timpson (Lab)
I cannot comment on individual cases, but it is up to the judiciary to decide what sentence they hand down to offenders.
Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)
My Lords, I too add to the welcome that has been given to David Gauke’s review and the Government’s response to it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, when he said, “Let us try to approach this in a non-political manner”, but I fear that is probably pie in the sky. I shall put it in a slightly different way: can we try to approach this by seeing what works? Do these long prison sentences work? My own view is that they do not. As important to these reforms will be making sure that the substitute, of people spending more time in the community, works. Here, money is critical. I very much hope that the Government will be prepared to submit their detailed costings for critical examination, because we cannot afford to get this wrong.
There are three areas that concern me. First, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that in this electronic age, tagging should be efficient. I do not want to say much about the companies that have been used, but they have a fairly dubious history in some respects. Secondly, we ought to be very careful in how we deal with people who offend. When we tried this 20 years ago, that was the problem: if someone broke the conditions, we were too slow at doing anything about it; therefore, that needs funds. Thirdly, can we ensure that there is proper money for the Probation Service, and that that is examined critically? All of those are critical to the point that has been made—how do we have confidence in the community?
I remember going up north as a youngish judge and being told, when I advocated community sentence, “Young man,”—I was, I think, relatively young then— “we don’t believe in it up here”. We have to make them believe in it.
Lord Timpson (Lab)
My approach to this job is exactly my approach to all my working life: follow the evidence and make sure you get some great people working with you who have a very clear idea of what needs to be achieved. That is my plan here. That is why, for example, Texas provides an interesting example; the evidence is clear, and I am delighted that we have taken it on board. The point within that is the incentives: what incentives does a prisoner have to do what we ask them to do? If they behave badly, they get time added on to their sentence, so it is a good example of following the evidence.
Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)
My Lords, I sat as a magistrate for some 10 years and remain on the supplemental list. I have to say that it is a grave mistake to take away the ability, as a norm, to give out small and shorter sentences, for the simple reason that we magistrates did so to keep bad people away from good people. It is as simple as that. Is the problem not more what is happening within our prison estate? People who may be drug-free are going into the prison estate and getting a drug habit while there. That in itself is a cause for not just some concern but grave concern, and I am not surprised that they then come out to a life of criminality thereafter. Surely, that has to be the primary concern of the Minister. In so saying, I pay tribute to his family’s support for those on the prison estate, which has been truly exceptional over many years.
Lord Timpson (Lab)
Drugs are a problem in every prison, and the addiction that people come into prison with is often exacerbated by serious organised criminals who make money out of selling drugs to addicted people. This then turns into violence and debt, and the ongoing problems we have in prisons. I want people to be in prison to turn their lives around, not to go out and commit further crime. Drugs is a massive problem, and that is why an awful lot of my time is spent finding ways to tackle drugs. It is not just about stopping drones coming in, which noble Lords are aware is a big problem; it is also about the hard yards done by health staff, supporting people with addiction, so that when they come out, they are off drugs and want to lead a normal, healthy life. We then create no victims.