Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 5th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I join others in welcoming my noble friend the Minister to his new responsibilities. Clearly this is an area not only of great interest but of great importance, and I am sure he will discharge his duties with his usual aplomb. I also join other noble Lords in paying tribute to my noble friend Lady Browning. She is someone I have known for a very long time and I am sure I reflect the sentiments of everyone in your Lordships’ House in saying we will miss her style, humour and panache from the Front Bench, and we wish her a speedy return to the red Benches.

As my noble friend Lord Howard mentioned, the Bill in front of us today presents the need of balancing public security and protection of civil liberties. It is a difficult balance that we often find ourselves facing and, as he so aptly put it, it is a question ultimately of judgment. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, asked us to reflect for a moment and put this debate into context. Why did control orders come about in the first instance? As we have heard from many noble Lords, terror remains a reality both globally and on our very own shores. I am sure all of us remember 7 July 2005 very well. That was the time terror arrived on our very doorstep. No longer was this something that we saw from a remote area, notwithstanding the issues we saw when we were confronted with terrorism from Northern Ireland. This time it was at the very heart of our capital and there was a difference: the impact of suicide bombing. Let us not forget that these were home-bred terrorists.

It is therefore important that we reflect upon the questions we reflected upon then in this very debate. What possessed these British-born individuals, some with very young families, some in the teaching profession, to become obsessed with the mission not only to take their lives but—under an extreme and perverse interpretation of their own noble faith and religious doctrine, so far removed for the teachings of their faith—to take the lives of others through the destruction of their own? It was an indiscriminate act and a devastating form of attack which had no single target, but the sole objective to destroy and invoke terror. It was in the aftermath of these very bombings that it was important that action was taken, and the Government at that time did act—under criticism at times, but in the best interests of the primary duty of any Government: to protect its citizens, and to seek to address and eradicate any possibility of the recurrence of such an evil and despicable atrocity.

Let us look at the facts: 53 people lost their lives right here in London and, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, many others were impacted by those heinous acts. Since the introduction of control orders, perhaps 50 people have fallen under their jurisdiction—fewer than the victims in 2005. That is what we must reflect upon as we debate this most important element of what any parliament debates, the security of its citizens. There remains today, six years on, the same need to ensure that whatever we do is necessary in fulfilling this primary duty.

Therefore, I welcome this debate and I welcome the new legislation because it moves towards what we have heard from several noble Lords about striking that crucial balance between protecting our citizens and the civil liberties of our country. I welcome the reduction of 28-day detention without charge to 14 days, and an end, perhaps, to the indiscriminate use of terror stop-and-search powers. We have to face the reality that things changed with 9/11 and 7/7—the world itself changed; our country changed. I also welcome the new requirements for magistrates to sanction any local authority intervention and, most importantly in this current age of austerity, extra resourcing behind this Bill.

I also welcome the stronger effort to deport foreign nationals involved in terrorist activities on our shores, while fully respecting our human rights obligations. However, in this respect, I ask my noble friend the Minister how many individuals under the current control order regime fall into this category, including those who are in the UK with leave to remain. We may seek to deport foreign nationals convicted of terror acts, but I believe this new legislation will be limited in its impact and effectiveness if we do not continue to apply the same stringent controls against what I would term imported extremism.

The UK has been and should always remain a place for free speech. We are able, in our democracy, institutions and society, to listen to a contrary opinion, a criticism of who we are and our way of life—we accept that. However, where that call transcends into a call for violence, terror or indeed the destruction of our country, community and society, we need to draw a line and be stringent in the application of controls on our borders. I therefore seek an assurance from my noble friend the Minister that there will remain, crucially, a strong sense of communication between all government agencies to ensure that we prevent such individuals, who are often nothing but preachers of hate and bigotry, from entering our shores.

As we reflect on the Bill and the travel restrictions in Schedule 1, as have been mentioned by other noble Lords, I suggest to my noble friend the Minister that any permission to leave should be not only subject to the Secretary of State’s permission but also that, again, robust channels are in place to ensure that all police authorities in the appropriate areas are informed and fully abreast of such travel arrangements.

On one element in the Bill, I bow to the experience and great wisdom in your Lordships’ House, and I look forward to the debate and discussions on the use of electronic communications. Let us not forget, as we look around the world and here in Britain, terror organisations do not ignore this. Indeed, they are becoming increasingly sophisticated in their use of electronic communication. Electronic media and social media are very much among their tools. I remain unconvinced that access to electronic media, albeit with the restrictive applications, should be allowed or is necessary.

In conclusion, I believe we all agree that there is a need to attack extremism. There is no doubt. There is a need to attack fanaticism in all its forms. Terror laws are aimed at preventing such acts. We would all ultimately rather do without such laws aimed at preventing such acts, in this day and age, and in our country and internationally we would hope that there would be no need for such legal intervention. But there is and this becomes very much part and parcel of the reality we face today, and it cannot be ignored.

Multiculturalism: Interfaith Dialogue

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, on securing this timely debate in view of the challenges that we face—not just in Britain but across the globe. Notwithstanding the hundreds of differences we have between us, people of faith all believe in God, in creation and in the Creator. After all, we belong to the same denomination. We are all God’s creatures. We belong to the same race—the human race. As inhabitants and citizens of the same country, we are mutual neighbours. That applies to all communities.

This requires that we build understanding and friendships with each other based on the purity of heart and sincerity of intentions. We dispose kindly towards one another. In the difficulties pertaining to religious and worldly matters, we should exercise empathy, sympathy and understanding towards one another’s views. After all, a religion which does not inculcate universal compassion is no religion. Similarly, a human being without the faculty of compassion is no human at all. If someone questions the possibility of reaching reconciliation where differences have occurred—indeed, religious differences—because they perceive that it is playing a negative role such as dividing hearts and minds, it can succeed only if it is not based on human values. All religions are based on common, human values. That what binds us is greater than what divides us. It is a danger to our community, to our nation and to the fragmentation of our society if we let those who seek to divide us come forth. Differences can only destroy communities and nations if the process of reconciliation results in some people resorting to insulting and being blasphemous towards the views and religions of others.

Perhaps I may suggest to my noble friend the Minister some practical steps. The Muslim community in which I grew up had a concept of religious founders’ days. A common theme is chosen, such as peace or humanity. All faiths are invited to present. But here comes the special ingredient. The Christian will present the Hindu’s view on peace or humanity. The Muslim will present the Jewish perspective and so on. This does not only broaden horizons among people; it educates and teaches not just tolerance but respect and reverence towards the beliefs of all.

The second element I would suggest to the Minister is this. I had the pleasure of following her as the Conservative Party’s vice-chairman for cities, yet when I travelled the country I saw divisions. Under the guise of inclusion we allowed children to be excluded from schools. A child who did not wish to attend a religious education class was allowed to sit aside, but what kind of inclusion is that? Like many others, I am a product of a Church of England school. I learned the Lord’s Prayer. Did it make me any less of a Muslim? As the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, suggested, not at all—it broadened my understanding and taught me about other faiths and communities and, most importantly, respect for all faiths.

The final component is that we must continue to stand up against extremists of all kinds. We should be intolerant of those who are intolerant towards others. If a person wishes to exclude someone, that is the time to instead exclude them.

In conclusion, I am an optimist but I am not complacent. I defy those who say that problems are caused by faith, which means that communities cannot ever work together. I defy those who say those of faith cannot work with those of no faith—they can and our country is testament to that. Faith matters and religion has the solution to build new communities. I accept that we have challenges but they will be overcome. Those who refute the diversity of strength in our faiths and our communities and indeed our nation should look no further than to your Lordships’ House, which is reflective of the strength and the success of our nation—our country—Britain.

Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 (Continuance in Force of Sections 1 to 9) Order 2011

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her earlier statement. I join her in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for his stewardship of what has been a very sensitive area.

I am reminded of when control orders came about, how they were introduced and the sense of the terrorism that gripped our very shores. I remember 7/7 vividly for various reasons: first, as someone who was travelling at that time; secondly, as someone who would have been impacted directly through both friends and family; and, thirdly, because of what happened in the aftermath when it was perceived that a particular faith or a particular community had indulged in, or been involved in, those acts. For all those reasons, a chill went down my back. It was important at that time that action was taken.

Britain, as many noble Lords have said, is a place of great liberty and freedoms, and that is right. However, the people who enact these crimes or even conceive of them do not respect that. They do not respect these laws, freedoms and liberties. Somewhat ironically, it is the very freedoms that are provided by our country that allow them, not to act, but to conceive of acting in that way.

We have heard from many noble Lords that control orders are not the perceived way forward. The Government accept that; indeed, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has said that quite clearly. However, I am concerned. Until the revisions are introduced, what is the option? What do we do in the interim? The threat of terrorism is alive today. If we cast our mind across the world to Pakistan, in Faisalabad today there has been yet another terrorist attack. As the Minister has said, this is not a threat just to the UK; it is a threat internationally, and we must react to it. Britain is a great place for civil liberties and freedoms, but equally the first responsibility of the Government must be to the citizens and residents in this great country—to protect their freedoms and their rights, yes, but also their safety and security.

While the extension of control orders is not perceived in this House as welcome, until we fill that vacuum there is an absolute need to ensure that our citizens are protected. I am sure that as the new legislation comes forward there will, with the wisdom possessed by this House, be robust debate. For tonight, though, I support the Minister in ensuring that control orders are extended to protect that majority. It is the exception who fall victim to control orders, but the majority must be protected. I lend my support to the extension of these orders, with the hope that the new legislation that we will see will be right for Britain and will continue to protect the residents and citizens of our country.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, for introducing this statutory instrument, which has of course a narrow, technical and short-term focus. In doing so, she displayed her customary vigilance in these matters. I am happy to support the instrument and, indeed, the Government’s plans for liberalisation in this area. Like other noble Lords, I particularly welcome the decision to increase access to internet and mobile phones under certain conditions for those affected by these orders, and I am glad, too, that the ability to relocate terrorist suspects in new areas will in all likelihood go. These are necessary, explicable and entirely defensible liberalisations.

We have heard much tonight about the case made by Liberty in a very fine document sent to many noble Lords, but I simply want to make one point on the other side of the argument regarding the extent to which all of this is shrouded in mystery. I simply think that it is possible for all of us to read some of the open-source evidence, including the High Court documentation, on these matters. If one does so, it is much more difficult for one to say that what is at stake here is a mystery of some sort. In fact, there is a significant amount of evidence in the public domain. Perhaps this bears on the argument about the role of the security forces in making a case behind the scenes—no doubt that goes on in all Governments—but, even without access to that sort of information and discussion, which most of us do not have, there is none the less a lot of material in the public domain that the Government have to take seriously. That is a balancing point that is worth making.

I am happy to support this temporary instrument as a necessary measure for public protection.